Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
On 10/5/2023 10:35 AM, George Bruseker wrote: Hi Martin, On this one continue to disagree. Yes the intention of the statement is to say that the instances of this class and their construction are meant to be formulated in data standards outside of CRM. Yes, and we provide interfaces to them. May be this phrase exactly is missing in the statement. Similarly, CRMgeo interfaces with the geo standards. The user of CRM absolutely should interpret this and understand it. Yes, but this does not require the CRM to define it, as RDF does not define the xsd values. The user of the CRM should interpret and understand a lot more than the CRM. "And the basics of ontology are that isA states that an instance of a subclass is also an instance of its superclass. If the superclass is meant to not be interpreted in CRM but be outside its world, then all of its subclasses should also not be interpreted within CRM." I said the opposite. Some primitive values are also *subclasses* of E41 Appellation. The superclass E41 is interpreted, but the respective Primitive Values under it, not further. would that make sense? Best, Martin Otherwise it would be like saying that some subclasses of temporal entity can not be, ontologically, temporal, or some subclasses of conceptual object can be, ontologically, other than conceptual. That would be a logical contradiction. Best, George On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 10:18 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: I think we have an interpretation problem here : "are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse". This is not a statement what users of the CRM should consider when they use the CRM. The CRM does not intend to analyse the Geospatial Standards, but interfaces to them, and recommends their use. It does not deal with the way computers store real numbers, integers etc, but interfaces to them and recommends their use. Exactly as RDF does *not analyze xsd values*, but interfaces to them and recommends their use. The linking construct in RDF is the *Literal*. Similarly, CRM defines some highlevel classes, to be filled with formats others analyze and define. Analyzing a superclass does not mean to analyze and define the subclasses. If this sense of the statement is not clear enough, please reformulate adequately. Best, Martin On 10/3/2023 9:59 AM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote: The duality of primitives as being in and out of of the universe of a discourse is a problem On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 9:45 AM Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig wrote: Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of course there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout". The questions about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82. So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94 Space Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the side of "Period is a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines but is not a Spacetime Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and its subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway. > Am 01.10.2023 um 14:09 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig : > > Some additional questions: > > P189 and P171: > E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive > is a strong shortcut of > E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by E94 Space Primitive > > Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be either both in CRMbase or both in CRMgeo? > > Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now? > > Should there be versions of P171 for time and spacetime volumes? i.e. > E93 Spacetime Volume P10 falls within SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive > E52 Time-Span P86 falls within SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive > > P189 and Q11: > Does P189 indeed represent the same concept as Q11 in CRMgeo (v1.2)? For example, P189 is marked as reflexive (i.e. any place approximates itself), which is not possible for Q11 since its domain and range are not the same (Declarative Place approximates Place). > > P189 and P7: > E4 Period P7 took place at E53 Place > is an inverse shortcut of > E4 Period P161 has spatial projection E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place > P7(x,y) ⇒
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Hi Martin, On this one continue to disagree. Yes the intention of the statement is to say that the instances of this class and their construction are meant to be formulated in data standards outside of CRM. The user of CRM absolutely should interpret this and understand it. And the basics of ontology are that isA states that an instance of a subclass is also an instance of its superclass. If the superclass is meant to not be interpreted in CRM but be outside its world, then all of its subclasses should also not be interpreted within CRM. Otherwise it would be like saying that some subclasses of temporal entity can not be, ontologically, temporal, or some subclasses of conceptual object can be, ontologically, other than conceptual. That would be a logical contradiction. Best, George On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 10:18 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig < crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > I think we have an interpretation problem here : > > "are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM > aims to define and analyse". > > This is not a statement what users of the CRM should consider when they > use the CRM. The CRM does not intend to analyse the Geospatial Standards, > but interfaces to them, and recommends their use. It does not deal with the > way computers store real numbers, integers etc, but interfaces to them and > recommends their use. Exactly as RDF does *not analyze xsd values*, but > interfaces to them and recommends their use. The linking construct in RDF > is the *Literal*. Similarly, CRM defines some highlevel classes, to be > filled with formats others analyze and define. Analyzing a superclass does > not mean to analyze and define the subclasses. > > If this sense of the statement is not clear enough, please reformulate > adequately. > > Best, > > Martin > > > On 10/3/2023 9:59 AM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote: > > The duality of primitives as being in and out of of the universe of a > discourse is a problem > > On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 9:45 AM Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig < > crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > >> Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of course >> there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout". The questions >> about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82. >> >> So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94 Space >> Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the side of "Period >> is a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines but is not a Spacetime >> Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and >> its subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the >> CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of >> Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway. >> >> >> > Am 01.10.2023 um 14:09 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig < >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>: >> > >> > Some additional questions: >> > >> > P189 and P171: >> > E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive >> > is a strong shortcut of >> > E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by E94 Space >> Primitive >> > >> > Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be either >> both in CRMbase or both in CRMgeo? >> > >> > Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now? >> > >> > Should there be versions of P171 for time and spacetime volumes? i.e. >> > E93 Spacetime Volume P10 falls within SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume >> P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive >> > E52 Time-Span P86 falls within SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is >> defined by E61 Time Primitive >> > >> > P189 and Q11: >> > Does P189 indeed represent the same concept as Q11 in CRMgeo (v1.2)? >> For example, P189 is marked as reflexive (i.e. any place approximates >> itself), which is not possible for Q11 since its domain and range are not >> the same (Declarative Place approximates Place). >> > >> > P189 and P7: >> > E4 Period P7 took place at E53 Place >> > is an inverse shortcut of >> > E4 Period P161 has spatial projection E53 Place P89 falls within E53 >> Place >> > P7(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y)] >> > (leaving out the "same reference system" requirements) >> > >> > Could one say that it becomes a strong shortcut if we add the "will to >> approximate" to the long version? i.e. >> > P7(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y) ∧ P189i(z,y)] >> > >> > This is not far away from Rob's starting point in issue 439 >> (Approximate Dimensions). In this issue, Martin argues that P189 shouldn't >> be used when one can establish "falls within". But it seems to me that >> > P89 + P189i = "is approximated from the outside by" >> > would work very well together. >> > >> > Best, >> > Wolfgang >> > >> > >> >> Am 26.09.2023 um 11:25 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig < >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>: >> >> >> >> I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the shortcut >> would be in CRMgeo
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Thanks Martin for your explanations! Would it make sense to say that two Space Primitives define the same Place if and only if one is considered an alternative form of the other? (∃x) [E53(x) ∧ P168(x,y) ∧ P168(x,z)] ⇔ E94(y) ∧ E94(z) ∧ ( y=z ∨ P139(y,z) ∨ P139(z,y) ) Best, Wolfgang > Am 04.10.2023 um 21:07 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig > : > > Dear Wolfgang, > > We define shortcuts only for the very frequent cases. I proposed a shortcut > for approximating a place by a space primitive, because there are millions of > such data. We do not propose shortcuts when we regard the documenation of the > intermediate to be important for data integration, such as birth events, in > contrast to "birth date" etc. > > The Space Primitive and all other primitives has an identity as a limited set > of internationally used symbols by electronic data devices. The same > geometric area can be described by many different space primitives. > Therefore, it is cannot be Isa place, isn't it? We need the distinctions if > notation and conversions become relevant. Different electronic devices > support different value ranges. At some place, we need to be pragmatic. If > we define an interface from an ontology of being in the real world, obeying > to FOL, to typical database constructs, we necessarily encounter some special > hybrids. For instance, 1/3 is a number, but does not exits in any primitive > value. "are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC > CRM aims to define and analyse" does not mean we do not use them. Making E94 > being a subclass of Appellation is a minimal statement about their role. > > Best, > > Martin > > > On 10/3/2023 9:41 AM, Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig wrote: >> Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of course >> there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout". The questions >> about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82. >> >> So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94 Space >> Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the side of "Period is >> a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines but is not a Spacetime >> Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and >> its subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the >> CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of >> Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway. >> >> >> > > -- > > Dr. Martin Doerr > Honorary Head of the > Center for Cultural Informatics > Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > Vox:+30(2810)391625 > Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
I think we have an interpretation problem here : "are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse". This is not a statement what users of the CRM should consider when they use the CRM. The CRM does not intend to analyse the Geospatial Standards, but interfaces to them, and recommends their use. It does not deal with the way computers store real numbers, integers etc, but interfaces to them and recommends their use. Exactly as RDF does *not analyze xsd values*, but interfaces to them and recommends their use. The linking construct in RDF is the *Literal*. Similarly, CRM defines some highlevel classes, to be filled with formats others analyze and define. Analyzing a superclass does not mean to analyze and define the subclasses. If this sense of the statement is not clear enough, please reformulate adequately. Best, Martin On 10/3/2023 9:59 AM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote: The duality of primitives as being in and out of of the universe of a discourse is a problem On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 9:45 AM Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig wrote: Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of course there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout". The questions about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82. So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94 Space Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the side of "Period is a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines but is not a Spacetime Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and its subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway. > Am 01.10.2023 um 14:09 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig : > > Some additional questions: > > P189 and P171: > E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive > is a strong shortcut of > E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by E94 Space Primitive > > Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be either both in CRMbase or both in CRMgeo? > > Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now? > > Should there be versions of P171 for time and spacetime volumes? i.e. > E93 Spacetime Volume P10 falls within SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive > E52 Time-Span P86 falls within SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive > > P189 and Q11: > Does P189 indeed represent the same concept as Q11 in CRMgeo (v1.2)? For example, P189 is marked as reflexive (i.e. any place approximates itself), which is not possible for Q11 since its domain and range are not the same (Declarative Place approximates Place). > > P189 and P7: > E4 Period P7 took place at E53 Place > is an inverse shortcut of > E4 Period P161 has spatial projection E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place > P7(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y)] > (leaving out the "same reference system" requirements) > > Could one say that it becomes a strong shortcut if we add the "will to approximate" to the long version? i.e. > P7(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y) ∧ P189i(z,y)] > > This is not far away from Rob's starting point in issue 439 (Approximate Dimensions). In this issue, Martin argues that P189 shouldn't be used when one can establish "falls within". But it seems to me that > P89 + P189i = "is approximated from the outside by" > would work very well together. > > Best, > Wolfgang > > >> Am 26.09.2023 um 11:25 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig : >> >> I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the shortcut would be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense to define shortcuts for STVs and Time-Spans in CRMgeo as well? I.e. for >> >> E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive >> >> E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive >> >> Best, >> Wolfgang >> >> >>> Am 25.09.2023 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig : >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is approximated by: E53 Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, >>> for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Martin >>> -- >>> >>> Dr. Martin Doerr >>> >>> Honorary Head
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Dear Wolfgang, Good question! Actually I am confronted with applications with many many points approximating places. Normally, we would say, use P171, P172, but DO NOT define an approximation by a POINT nearby, if you can do better. For legacy data, this is hard to enforce. I regard P171,P172 a fundamental good practice for CRMbase. No reason to repeat in CRMgeo anything that is (now!) in CRMbase, isn't it? Best, Martin On 10/1/2023 2:09 PM, Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig wrote: Some additional questions: P189 and P171: E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive is a strong shortcut of E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by E94 Space Primitive Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be either both in CRMbase or both in CRMgeo? Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now? -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Dear Wolfgang, P189 is a superproperty of Q11, because it allows also phenomenal and mixed-type places to be used for approximation. Indeed, if E53 Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, then it must be a Declarative Place. Hence, the shortcut can be the same of "E53 Place Q11i is approximated by: SP6 Declarative Place Q10i is defined by : SP5 Geometric Place Expression (= E94 Space Primitive)" I am not sure about the latest updated version of CRMgeo, because these are the constructs we harmonized later in CRMbase. Best, Martin On 9/26/2023 11:25 AM, Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig wrote: I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the shortcut would be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense to define shortcuts for STVs and Time-Spans in CRMgeo as well? I.e. for E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive Best, Wolfgang Am 25.09.2023 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig : Dear All, I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is approximated by: E53 Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label. Best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Dear Wolfgang, We define shortcuts only for the very frequent cases. I proposed a shortcut for approximating a place by a space primitive, because there are millions of such data. We do not propose shortcuts when we regard the documenation of the intermediate to be important for data integration, such as birth events, in contrast to "birth date" etc. The Space Primitive and all other primitives has an identity as a limited set of internationally used symbols by electronic data devices. The same geometric area can be described by many different space primitives. Therefore, it is cannot be Isa place, isn't it? We need the distinctions if notation and conversions become relevant. Different electronic devices support different value ranges. At some place, we need to be pragmatic. If we define an interface from an ontology of being in the real world, obeying to FOL, to typical database constructs, we necessarily encounter some special hybrids. For instance, 1/3 is a number, but does not exits in any primitive value. "are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse" does not mean we do not use them. Making E94 being a subclass of Appellation is a minimal statement about their role. Best, Martin On 10/3/2023 9:41 AM, Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig wrote: Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of course there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout". The questions about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82. So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94 Space Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the side of "Period is a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines but is not a Spacetime Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and its subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway. -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
The duality of primitives as being in and out of of the universe of a discourse is a problem On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 9:45 AM Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig < crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of course > there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout". The questions > about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82. > > So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94 Space > Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the side of "Period > is a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines but is not a Spacetime > Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and > its subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the > CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of > Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway. > > > > Am 01.10.2023 um 14:09 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig < > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>: > > > > Some additional questions: > > > > P189 and P171: > > E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive > > is a strong shortcut of > > E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by E94 Space > Primitive > > > > Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be either > both in CRMbase or both in CRMgeo? > > > > Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now? > > > > Should there be versions of P171 for time and spacetime volumes? i.e. > > E93 Spacetime Volume P10 falls within SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume > P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive > > E52 Time-Span P86 falls within SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is > defined by E61 Time Primitive > > > > P189 and Q11: > > Does P189 indeed represent the same concept as Q11 in CRMgeo (v1.2)? For > example, P189 is marked as reflexive (i.e. any place approximates itself), > which is not possible for Q11 since its domain and range are not the same > (Declarative Place approximates Place). > > > > P189 and P7: > > E4 Period P7 took place at E53 Place > > is an inverse shortcut of > > E4 Period P161 has spatial projection E53 Place P89 falls within E53 > Place > > P7(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y)] > > (leaving out the "same reference system" requirements) > > > > Could one say that it becomes a strong shortcut if we add the "will to > approximate" to the long version? i.e. > > P7(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y) ∧ P189i(z,y)] > > > > This is not far away from Rob's starting point in issue 439 (Approximate > Dimensions). In this issue, Martin argues that P189 shouldn't be used when > one can establish "falls within". But it seems to me that > > P89 + P189i = "is approximated from the outside by" > > would work very well together. > > > > Best, > > Wolfgang > > > > > >> Am 26.09.2023 um 11:25 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig < > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>: > >> > >> I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the shortcut > would be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense to define shortcuts for STVs > and Time-Spans in CRMgeo as well? I.e. for > >> > >> E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7 Declarative Spacetime > Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive > >> > >> E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i > time is defined by E61 Time Primitive > >> > >> Best, > >> Wolfgang > >> > >> > >>> Am 25.09.2023 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig < > crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>: > >>> > >>> Dear All, > >>> > >>> I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is approximated by: > E53 Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, > >>> for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> -- > >>> > >>> Dr. Martin Doerr > >>> > >>> Honorary Head of the > >>> Center for Cultural Informatics > >>> > >>> Information Systems Laboratory > >>> Institute of Computer Science > >>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > >>> > >>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > >>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > >>> > >>> Vox:+30(2810)391625 > >>> Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > >>> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > >>> ___ > >>> Crm-sig mailing list > >>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > >>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> Crm-sig mailing list > >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > > > > ___ > > Crm-sig mailing list > > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > -- George Bruseker, PhD Chief Executive
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of course there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout". The questions about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82. So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94 Space Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the side of "Period is a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines but is not a Spacetime Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and its subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway. > Am 01.10.2023 um 14:09 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig > : > > Some additional questions: > > P189 and P171: > E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive > is a strong shortcut of > E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by E94 Space > Primitive > > Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be either both in > CRMbase or both in CRMgeo? > > Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now? > > Should there be versions of P171 for time and spacetime volumes? i.e. > E93 Spacetime Volume P10 falls within SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i > spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive > E52 Time-Span P86 falls within SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is > defined by E61 Time Primitive > > P189 and Q11: > Does P189 indeed represent the same concept as Q11 in CRMgeo (v1.2)? For > example, P189 is marked as reflexive (i.e. any place approximates itself), > which is not possible for Q11 since its domain and range are not the same > (Declarative Place approximates Place). > > P189 and P7: > E4 Period P7 took place at E53 Place > is an inverse shortcut of > E4 Period P161 has spatial projection E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place > P7(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y)] > (leaving out the "same reference system" requirements) > > Could one say that it becomes a strong shortcut if we add the "will to > approximate" to the long version? i.e. > P7(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y) ∧ P189i(z,y)] > > This is not far away from Rob's starting point in issue 439 (Approximate > Dimensions). In this issue, Martin argues that P189 shouldn't be used when > one can establish "falls within". But it seems to me that > P89 + P189i = "is approximated from the outside by" > would work very well together. > > Best, > Wolfgang > > >> Am 26.09.2023 um 11:25 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig >> : >> >> I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the shortcut would >> be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense to define shortcuts for STVs and >> Time-Spans in CRMgeo as well? I.e. for >> >> E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7 Declarative Spacetime >> Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive >> >> E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time >> is defined by E61 Time Primitive >> >> Best, >> Wolfgang >> >> >>> Am 25.09.2023 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig >>> : >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is approximated by: E53 >>> Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, >>> for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Martin >>> -- >>> >>> Dr. Martin Doerr >>> >>> Honorary Head of the >>> Center for Cultural Informatics >>> >>> Information Systems Laboratory >>> Institute of Computer Science >>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) >>> >>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, >>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece >>> >>> Vox:+30(2810)391625 >>> Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr >>> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl >>> ___ >>> Crm-sig mailing list >>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> >> >> ___ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Some additional questions: P189 and P171: E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive is a strong shortcut of E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by E94 Space Primitive Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be either both in CRMbase or both in CRMgeo? Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now? Should there be versions of P171 for time and spacetime volumes? i.e. E93 Spacetime Volume P10 falls within SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive E52 Time-Span P86 falls within SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive P189 and Q11: Does P189 indeed represent the same concept as Q11 in CRMgeo (v1.2)? For example, P189 is marked as reflexive (i.e. any place approximates itself), which is not possible for Q11 since its domain and range are not the same (Declarative Place approximates Place). P189 and P7: E4 Period P7 took place at E53 Place is an inverse shortcut of E4 Period P161 has spatial projection E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P7(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y)] (leaving out the "same reference system" requirements) Could one say that it becomes a strong shortcut if we add the "will to approximate" to the long version? i.e. P7(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y) ∧ P189i(z,y)] This is not far away from Rob's starting point in issue 439 (Approximate Dimensions). In this issue, Martin argues that P189 shouldn't be used when one can establish "falls within". But it seems to me that P89 + P189i = "is approximated from the outside by" would work very well together. Best, Wolfgang > Am 26.09.2023 um 11:25 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig > : > > I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the shortcut would > be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense to define shortcuts for STVs and > Time-Spans in CRMgeo as well? I.e. for > > E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume > P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive > > E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time > is defined by E61 Time Primitive > > Best, > Wolfgang > > >> Am 25.09.2023 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig >> : >> >> Dear All, >> >> I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is approximated by: E53 >> Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, >> for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label. >> >> Best, >> >> Martin >> -- >> >> Dr. Martin Doerr >> >> Honorary Head of the >> Center for Cultural Informatics >> >> Information Systems Laboratory >> Institute of Computer Science >> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) >> >> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, >> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece >> >> Vox:+30(2810)391625 >> Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr >> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl >> ___ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the shortcut would be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense to define shortcuts for STVs and Time-Spans in CRMgeo as well? I.e. for E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive Best, Wolfgang > Am 25.09.2023 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig > : > > Dear All, > > I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is approximated by: E53 > Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, > for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label. > > Best, > > Martin > -- > > Dr. Martin Doerr > > Honorary Head of the > Center for Cultural Informatics > > Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > > Vox:+30(2810)391625 > Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Dear All, I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is approximated by: E53 Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label. Best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
