Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Andrew Eisenberg]

Coming a little late into this discussion, but I wanted to talk about
a few misconceptions regarding IntelliJ.

JetBrains sells 5 IDEs (one each for Java/Groovy/Scala, php, python,
ruby, and JS/HTML5).  http://www.jetbrains.com/products.html In
addition, there are free ones for Java, and a couple of in house
languages.  All of these IDEs are built on the same core platform.
The a big difference Eclipse's distros is that with IntelliJ's model,
you cannot install one package into another (advantage-Eclipse).

Now, there is a more fundamental difference between Eclipse and
IntelliJ.  How is it that the Community Edition of IDEA installer can
be 273 Mb, but the equivalent Eclipse package (including m2e,
ScalaIde, Groovy-Eclipse, and other tools) would be twice that? (I
don't know off-hand how large the Ultimate edition is, but I would
expect that it is way smaller than Eclipse would be.) The answer is in
the way that IDEA integrates with tools and frameworks and is really
outside the scope of this conversation.  But the result is that they
can ship the same functionality at a significantly smaller size
(advantage JetBrains).

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 9:09 AM, Ian Skerrett  wrote:
> On 30/07/2013 12:04 PM, Doug Schaefer wrote:
>>
>> Given there is still a huge majority of users that aren't on Linux, we
>> need a solution that runs on those other platforms. The more I think of it
>> and read the discussion here, the more I think it would be great to have an
>> Eclipse IDE installer/bootstrap UI thing that made it really easy for new
>> users, and veteran ones :) to pick the "components" they want in their IDE.
>
>
> +1 a better install experience would be awesome!
>
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Ian Skerrett]

On 30/07/2013 12:04 PM, Doug Schaefer wrote:
Given there is still a huge majority of users that aren't on Linux, we 
need a solution that runs on those other platforms. The more I think 
of it and read the discussion here, the more I think it would be great 
to have an Eclipse IDE installer/bootstrap UI thing that made it 
really easy for new users, and veteran ones :) to pick the 
"components" they want in their IDE.


+1 a better install experience would be awesome!
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Doug Schaefer]

On 13-07-30 11:54 AM, "Andrew Ross"  wrote:

>On 30/07/13 03:09, Krzysztof Daniel wrote:
>> On Tue, 2013-07-30 at 00:36 +, Doug Schaefer wrote:
>>> +1 for that. I've seen (and made for that matter) commercial products
>>> do that. Download a minimal p2 install with an Eclipse application
>>> that drives the rest of the install. We could ask for a list of
>>> languages or platforms they want to develop for and then install the
>>> necessary components.
>> I'm very skeptical about P2 in the downloader. It was created in the
>> past (http://wiki.eclipse.org/Equinox_p2_Installer) and never made into
>> real world. AFAIK it would suffer from the same issues as regular P2 -
>> does require java to be pre-downloaded, no real integration with the
>> system (privileges elevation) and extreme vulnerability to users.
>>
>> I'd rather focus on opening P2 to 3rd party installers [1] and offered
>> users more OS-specific experience. No need to reinvent the wheel.
>>
>> [1] Bug 378329: Support 3rd party installers
>>
>
>Systems that manage software at the network level know how to talk to OS
>software management systems. This is a very big deal for many large
>companies and even quite useful for small & medium sized ones. It's
>useful to enable outreach as people would get Eclipse just like
>everything else... be it yum, pacman, zypper, apt, etc. Pity Windows
>lacks a proper software management system or at least did the last time
>I ran it.

Linux has it's solutions and vendors like Red Hat are doing a great job of
giving their users access to Eclipse. Mind you those installers are really
hardcore compared to the Windows installers (like NSIS) and Mac DMG
installers (drag-n-drop) or PKG installers.

Given there is still a huge majority of users that aren't on Linux, we
need a solution that runs on those other platforms. The more I think of it
and read the discussion here, the more I think it would be great to have
an Eclipse IDE installer/bootstrap UI thing that made it really easy for
new users, and veteran ones :) to pick the "components" they want in their
IDE.

Doug.

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Andrew Ross]

On 30/07/13 03:09, Krzysztof Daniel wrote:

On Tue, 2013-07-30 at 00:36 +, Doug Schaefer wrote:

+1 for that. I've seen (and made for that matter) commercial products
do that. Download a minimal p2 install with an Eclipse application
that drives the rest of the install. We could ask for a list of
languages or platforms they want to develop for and then install the
necessary components.

I'm very skeptical about P2 in the downloader. It was created in the
past (http://wiki.eclipse.org/Equinox_p2_Installer) and never made into
real world. AFAIK it would suffer from the same issues as regular P2 -
does require java to be pre-downloaded, no real integration with the
system (privileges elevation) and extreme vulnerability to users.

I'd rather focus on opening P2 to 3rd party installers [1] and offered
users more OS-specific experience. No need to reinvent the wheel.

[1] Bug 378329: Support 3rd party installers



Systems that manage software at the network level know how to talk to OS 
software management systems. This is a very big deal for many large 
companies and even quite useful for small & medium sized ones. It's 
useful to enable outreach as people would get Eclipse just like 
everything else... be it yum, pacman, zypper, apt, etc. Pity Windows 
lacks a proper software management system or at least did the last time 
I ran it.


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[cross-project-issues-dev] new ide-dev mailing list

[Doug Schaefer]

Hey gang,

Denis has set up the ide-dev mailing list for us. Cross project issues was 
really meant for release train project management issues. I think it would be 
prudent if we move our IDE focused discussions over there. Feel free to sign up:

https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/ide-dev

Doug.
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Konstantin Komissarchik]

IntelliJ has 2 editions (free and ultimate), NetBeans has 5 edition (Java
SE, Java EE, C/C++, PHP and All), even Microsoft, the king of too many
product editions, has 8 editions of Visual Studio. Eclipse has 12 with one
more on the way, and that's just the packages available from eclipse.org. 

 

Do we honestly believe that Eclipse users on average are more prone to
specialization than users of all the other IDEs? I think we've taken this
developer personas thing way too far. Instead of improving the user
experience the silos allow us to pretend that usability is better than it
actually is. If having everything installed results in a noisy experience,
we need to fix those problems instead of hiding them.

 

But enough talk. We aren't going to get anywhere by going on anecdotes and
personal preferences. We need hard data on broad user preference. As such, I
have created a bug to create the ultimate package and have volunteered to be
the package maintainer.

 

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=414025

 

If the ultimate package is ready for Luna, by Winter of 2014 we will have
hard data on user preference. We can then come back to this discussion and
re-evaluate the need for granular packages based on the download numbers.

 

Thanks,

 

- Konstantin

 

 

 

From: cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Mickael
Istria
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:38 AM
To: cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually
hurting Eclipse?

 

On 07/30/2013 04:19 PM, Campo, Christian wrote:

  

Maybe its also because I do a lot of RCP development and always download the
RCP packages for the Eclipse IDE. Recently I decided to do some WTP stuff
for myself. And the easiest way for me was to download a WTP Eclipse IDE. So
maybe you can say that I could have downloaded some features from the Kepler
repo. But I wasnt sure what was necessary so I downloaded a new IDE. (Felt
strange, but worked)

 

So after that I thought, maybe I would preferred an IDE that can do
"everything java" aka "ultimate"...

 

You usage of the IDE seems to show that even if you know it's possible to
have everything in the same IDE, you prefered to download a second IDE and
have an IDE for RCP and an IDE for Web applications development.
Your use-case seems opposed to what you're advocating for, so I'm curious:
If you did not find the value of creating a "utilmate IDE" and prefered
multiple IDEs, why do you think a "Ultimate" IDE would be better.

Here is my story to advocate against a "Ultimate IDE": I used to have much
stuff in the same IDE for a few monthes, it contained my work stuff (mainly
RCP) and some entertainment stuff (WTP, JBoss Tools and Android Dev Tools).
My work tools and entertainment activities are not related at all. One day,
I got angry of having too much stuff in that IDE and I spitted it because I
used to get bugs coming from Android Tools when doing some RCP work, and WTP
was doing some extra validation which was time consuming and because I was
upset by many menus that are irrelevant; and the other way round, I got a
lot of irrelevant noise and UI elements coming from PDE when doing to
Web/Android development. Since them, I'm much happier in both of these
activity-centric IDEs.

-- 
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat  
My blog   - My Tweets
 

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Campo, Christian]

I admit that I didnt look much in the Kepler repo if there was a feature for 
me. My fear was that there is no single feature that includes everything that 
is in the JavaEE Eclipse IDE. And I didnt really know or took the time to look 
where I could possibly find it.

If I look at the Kepler repo now in software install (after it took 30 seconds 
to download the metadata) now its still tricky to know what would get me 
everything for J2EE.

I think my point is that a download of 245 MB where I have some confidence that 
I am all set is easier than digging through a large repo with many features

Von: cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org 
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org] Im Auftrag von Pascal 
Rapicault
Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. Juli 2013 16:57
An: Cross project issues
Betreff: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

Out of curiosity, what were the blocking factors that prevented you to download 
WTP in your existing install? My thinking is that if someone as immersed as you 
with the Eclipse ecosystem can't figure this out, then there may be something 
there as well.

On 07/30/2013 04:49 PM, Campo, Christian wrote:
The answer is simple. I downloaded 2 IDEs because currently there is NO 
Ultimate Its NOT that I prefer 2 IDE installations

But your point about a bloated UI is worthwhile thinking about really. Its in 
the same direction of Doug's and Martin's comment. About either controlling the 
UI bloat or being able to switch from J2EE to RCP to WTP in the same IDE 
without installing something new

Von: Mickael Istria mailto:mist...@redhat.com>>
Antworten an: Cross issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Datum: Dienstag, 30. Juli 2013 16:38
An: Cross issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Betreff: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

On 07/30/2013 04:19 PM, Campo, Christian wrote:

Maybe its also because I do a lot of RCP development and always download the 
RCP packages for the Eclipse IDE. Recently I decided to do some WTP stuff for 
myself. And the easiest way for me was to download a WTP Eclipse IDE. So maybe 
you can say that I could have downloaded some features from the Kepler repo. 
But I wasnt sure what was necessary so I downloaded a new IDE. (Felt strange, 
but worked)

So after that I thought, maybe I would preferred an IDE that can do "everything 
java" aka "ultimate"...

You usage of the IDE seems to show that even if you know it's possible to have 
everything in the same IDE, you prefered to download a second IDE and have an 
IDE for RCP and an IDE for Web applications development.
Your use-case seems opposed to what you're advocating for, so I'm curious: If 
you did not find the value of creating a "utilmate IDE" and prefered multiple 
IDEs, why do you think a "Ultimate" IDE would be better.

Here is my story to advocate against a "Ultimate IDE": I used to have much 
stuff in the same IDE for a few monthes, it contained my work stuff (mainly 
RCP) and some entertainment stuff (WTP, JBoss Tools and Android Dev Tools). My 
work tools and entertainment activities are not related at all. One day, I got 
angry of having too much stuff in that IDE and I spitted it because I used to 
get bugs coming from Android Tools when doing some RCP work, and WTP was doing 
some extra validation which was time consuming and because I was upset by many 
menus that are irrelevant; and the other way round, I got a lot of irrelevant 
noise and UI elements coming from PDE when doing to Web/Android development. 
Since them, I'm much happier in both of these activity-centric IDEs.
--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat
My blog - My 
Tweets
-
compeople AG
Untermainanlage 8
60329 Frankfurt/Main
fon: +49 (0) 69 / 27 22 18 0
fax: +49 (0) 69 / 27 22 18 22
web: www.compeople.de

Vorstand: Jürgen Wiesmaier
Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Christian Glanz

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Frankfurt/Main
Handelsregister Frankfurt HRB 56759
USt-IdNr. DE207665352
-



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fax: +49 (0) 69 / 27 22 18 22
web: www.compeople.de

Vorstand: Jürgen Wiesmaier
Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Christian Glanz

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Frankfurt/Main
Handelsregister Frankfurt HRB 56759
USt-IdNr. DE207665352
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Mickael Istria]

On 07/30/2013 04:49 PM, Campo, Christian wrote:
But your point about a bloated UI is worthwhile thinking about really. 
Its in the same direction of Doug's and Martin's comment. About either 
controlling the UI bloat or being able to switch from J2EE to RCP to 
WTP in the same IDE without installing something new
That's the purpose of activities ( 
http://help.eclipse.org/juno/index.jsp?topic=%2Forg.eclipse.platform.doc.isv%2Freference%2Fextension-points%2Forg_eclipse_ui_activities.html 
) but it requires some effort for projects to correctly support them, 
and some effort for end-users to correctly enable them.
IMO, a well-packaged-and-configured IDE is easier for both producers and 
users.

--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat 
My blog  - My Tweets 

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Pascal Rapicault]

Out of curiosity, what were the blocking factors that prevented you to 
download WTP in your existing install? My thinking is that if someone as 
immersed as you with the Eclipse ecosystem can't figure this out, then 
there may be something there as well.


On 07/30/2013 04:49 PM, Campo, Christian wrote:
The answer is simple. I downloaded 2 IDEs because currently there is 
NO Ultimate Its NOT that I prefer 2 IDE installations


But your point about a bloated UI is worthwhile thinking about really. 
Its in the same direction of Doug's and Martin's comment. About either 
controlling the UI bloat or being able to switch from J2EE to RCP to 
WTP in the same IDE without installing something new


Von: Mickael Istria mailto:mist...@redhat.com>>
Antworten an: Cross issues >

Datum: Dienstag, 30. Juli 2013 16:38
An: Cross issues >
Betreff: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually 
hurting Eclipse?


On 07/30/2013 04:19 PM, Campo, Christian wrote:


Maybe its also because I do a lot of RCP development and always 
download the RCP packages for the Eclipse IDE. Recently I decided to 
do some WTP stuff for myself. And the easiest way for me was to 
download a WTP Eclipse IDE. So maybe you can say that I could have 
downloaded some features from the Kepler repo. But I wasnt sure what 
was necessary so I downloaded a new IDE. (Felt strange, but worked)


So after that I thought, maybe I would preferred an IDE that can do 
"everything java" aka "ultimate"...



You usage of the IDE seems to show that even if you know it's possible 
to have everything in the same IDE, you prefered to download a second 
IDE and have an IDE for RCP and an IDE for Web applications development.
Your use-case seems opposed to what you're advocating for, so I'm 
curious: If you did not find the value of creating a "utilmate IDE" 
and prefered multiple IDEs, why do you think a "Ultimate" IDE would be 
better.


Here is my story to advocate against a "Ultimate IDE": I used to have 
much stuff in the same IDE for a few monthes, it contained my work 
stuff (mainly RCP) and some entertainment stuff (WTP, JBoss Tools and 
Android Dev Tools). My work tools and entertainment activities are not 
related at all. One day, I got angry of having too much stuff in that 
IDE and I spitted it because I used to get bugs coming from Android 
Tools when doing some RCP work, and WTP was doing some extra 
validation which was time consuming and because I was upset by many 
menus that are irrelevant; and the other way round, I got a lot of 
irrelevant noise and UI elements coming from PDE when doing to 
Web/Android development. Since them, I'm much happier in both of these 
activity-centric IDEs.

--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat 
My blog  - My Tweets 


-
compeople AG
Untermainanlage 8
60329 Frankfurt/Main
fon: +49 (0) 69 / 27 22 18 0
fax: +49 (0) 69 / 27 22 18 22
web: www.compeople.de 

Vorstand: Jürgen Wiesmaier
Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Christian Glanz

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Frankfurt/Main
Handelsregister Frankfurt HRB 56759
USt-IdNr. DE207665352
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Campo, Christian]

The answer is simple. I downloaded 2 IDEs because currently there is NO 
Ultimate…. Its NOT that I prefer 2 IDE installations

But your point about a bloated UI is worthwhile thinking about really. Its in 
the same direction of Doug's and Martin's comment. About either controlling the 
UI bloat or being able to switch from J2EE to RCP to WTP in the same IDE 
without installing something new….

Von: Mickael Istria mailto:mist...@redhat.com>>
Antworten an: Cross issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Datum: Dienstag, 30. Juli 2013 16:38
An: Cross issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Betreff: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

On 07/30/2013 04:19 PM, Campo, Christian wrote:

Maybe its also because I do a lot of RCP development and always download the 
RCP packages for the Eclipse IDE. Recently I decided to do some WTP stuff for 
myself. And the easiest way for me was to download a WTP Eclipse IDE. So maybe 
you can say that I could have downloaded some features from the Kepler repo. 
But I wasnt sure what was necessary so I downloaded a new IDE. (Felt strange, 
but worked)

So after that I thought, maybe I would preferred an IDE that can do „everything 
java“ aka „ultimate“...

You usage of the IDE seems to show that even if you know it's possible to have 
everything in the same IDE, you prefered to download a second IDE and have an 
IDE for RCP and an IDE for Web applications development.
Your use-case seems opposed to what you're advocating for, so I'm curious: If 
you did not find the value of creating a "utilmate IDE" and prefered multiple 
IDEs, why do you think a "Ultimate" IDE would be better.

Here is my story to advocate against a "Ultimate IDE": I used to have much 
stuff in the same IDE for a few monthes, it contained my work stuff (mainly 
RCP) and some entertainment stuff (WTP, JBoss Tools and Android Dev Tools). My 
work tools and entertainment activities are not related at all. One day, I got 
angry of having too much stuff in that IDE and I spitted it because I used to 
get bugs coming from Android Tools when doing some RCP work, and WTP was doing 
some extra validation which was time consuming and because I was upset by many 
menus that are irrelevant; and the other way round, I got a lot of irrelevant 
noise and UI elements coming from PDE when doing to Web/Android development. 
Since them, I'm much happier in both of these activity-centric IDEs.
--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat
My blog - My 
Tweets

-
compeople AG
Untermainanlage 8
60329 Frankfurt/Main
fon: +49 (0) 69 / 27 22 18 0
fax: +49 (0) 69 / 27 22 18 22
web: www.compeople.de

Vorstand: Jürgen Wiesmaier
Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Christian Glanz

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Frankfurt/Main
Handelsregister Frankfurt HRB 56759
USt-IdNr. DE207665352
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Mickael Istria]

On 07/30/2013 04:18 PM, Doug Schaefer wrote:

Again, the Uber package would be a way to show how bad things are.
I am pretty sure end-users don't want a package that shows how bad 
things are ;)
If one of the contributors wants to see how bad things are, one can 
click on the "Select All" button of installer wizard...


--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat 
My blog  - My Tweets 

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Mickael Istria]

On 07/30/2013 04:19 PM, Campo, Christian wrote:


Maybe its also because I do a lot of RCP development and always 
download the RCP packages for the Eclipse IDE. Recently I decided to 
do some WTP stuff for myself. And the easiest way for me was to 
download a WTP Eclipse IDE. So maybe you can say that I could have 
downloaded some features from the Kepler repo. But I wasnt sure what 
was necessary so I downloaded a new IDE. (Felt strange, but worked)


So after that I thought, maybe I would preferred an IDE that can do 
"everything java" aka "ultimate"...



You usage of the IDE seems to show that even if you know it's possible 
to have everything in the same IDE, you prefered to download a second 
IDE and have an IDE for RCP and an IDE for Web applications development.
Your use-case seems opposed to what you're advocating for, so I'm 
curious: If you did not find the value of creating a "utilmate IDE" and 
prefered multiple IDEs, why do you think a "Ultimate" IDE would be better.


Here is my story to advocate against a "Ultimate IDE": I used to have 
much stuff in the same IDE for a few monthes, it contained my work stuff 
(mainly RCP) and some entertainment stuff (WTP, JBoss Tools and Android 
Dev Tools). My work tools and entertainment activities are not related 
at all. One day, I got angry of having too much stuff in that IDE and I 
spitted it because I used to get bugs coming from Android Tools when 
doing some RCP work, and WTP was doing some extra validation which was 
time consuming and because I was upset by many menus that are 
irrelevant; and the other way round, I got a lot of irrelevant noise and 
UI elements coming from PDE when doing to Web/Android development. Since 
them, I'm much happier in both of these activity-centric IDEs.

--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat 
My blog  - My Tweets 

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Bugzilla hanging?

[Denis Roy]

Just to close the loop on this -- the issue was caused by our load 
balancer's keepalive mechanism, which was set to "tcp".  Since the 
kernel-based tcp stack generally keeps functioning even when a server 
hangs itself from an Out Of Memory condition, the load balancer still 
sees the server as being alive and well.


We've changed the keepalive mechanism for Bugzilla to an HTTP HEAD 
request.  This should be much more reliable, as it depends on a fully 
functional Apache http server's response.


Denis




On 07/30/2013 08:53 AM, Denis Roy wrote:
One of the three nodes had hung itself.  Oddly, our load balancer was 
seeing it as "dead" but insisted on still sending some connections to it.


We'll look into it.  I brought the dead node back to life a couple of 
hours ago.


Denis


On 07/30/2013 06:19 AM, Wim Jongman wrote:

Connection timeout here as well.


On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Ralf Sternberg 
mailto:rsternb...@eclipsesource.com>> 
wrote:


I can't connect to bugzilla - connection timeout.

Ralf



On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Daniel Megert
mailto:daniel_meg...@ch.ibm.com>> wrote:

Works fine so far from Zurich this morning.

Dani


From: Tom Schindl mailto:tom.schi...@bestsolution.at>>
To: cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org

Date: 30.07.2013 10:03
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Bugzilla hanging?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org





for bugzilla is hanging as well.

Tom

On 30.07.13 09:08, Eike Stepper wrote:
> I didn't have any problems with Bugzilla today.
>
> Cheers
> /Eike
>
> 
> http://www.esc-net.de 
> http://thegordian.blogspot.com

> http://twitter.com/eikestepper
>
>
>
> Am 30.07.2013 08:47, schrieb Henrik:
>> Bugzilla seems to be unresponsive for a while this morning
(Git and
>> Hudson seem to work).
>> Is anybody else experiencing this?
>>
>> -Henrik
>>
>>



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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Campo, Christian]

As an alternative we could replace "Standard" with an "Ultimate Java" Edition 
(including J2EE, WTP, RCP, Modeling)  and see what the download numbers are 
next year.

See I totally agree that are places where you want to specialize. My only 
problem that we are discussing this among ~ 1000 eclipse committers here and we 
have around 2 mio downloads.

Maybe its also because I do a lot of RCP development and always download the 
RCP packages for the Eclipse IDE. Recently I decided to do some WTP stuff for 
myself. And the easiest way for me was to download a WTP Eclipse IDE. So maybe 
you can say that I could have downloaded some features from the Kepler repo. 
But I wasnt sure what was necessary so I downloaded a new IDE. (Felt strange, 
but worked)

So after that I thought, maybe I would preferred an IDE that can do "everything 
java" aka "ultimate"...

christian

Von: cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org 
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org] Im Auftrag von Mickael 
Istria
Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. Juli 2013 16:12
An: cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
Betreff: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

On 07/30/2013 03:57 PM, Igor Fedorenko wrote:
Are you suggesting forcing webtools on all java developers? Seriously?
I've just had a new look at the Eclipse community survey and since about 45% 
(~=100% - web dev perventage - RCP percentage - non-Java users percentage) of 
Java users are doing something else that Web or Plugin development, it seems 
indeed that a Java package without WTP makes sense.
The use cases are people doing some server side stuff and plugins for various 
non-web applications (Maven, Jenkins, Ant...).

So I'm changing my mind and now agree that two distinct "Java" and "Java for 
Web development" package would still make sense. However I still keep thinking 
that "Eclipse Standard" doesn't help much.
--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat
My blog - My 
Tweets

-
compeople AG
Untermainanlage 8
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fon: +49 (0) 69 / 27 22 18 0
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Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Christian Glanz

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Doug Schaefer]

It's funny. The feature bloat and UI confusion mainly stems from projects that 
think they are the only thing installed and show their UI always and 
everywhere. That's why I am convinced we need a higher organization that 
watches these cross project issues and pushes for simplification. Again, the 
Uber package would be a way to show how bad things are.

From: Greg Watson mailto:g.wat...@computer.org>>
Reply-To: Cross project issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Date: Tuesday, 30 July, 2013 8:45 AM
To: Cross project issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?


On Jul 30, 2013, at 6:13 AM, Konstantin Komissarchik 
mailto:konstantin.komissarc...@oracle.com>> 
wrote:

> so they are actually useful to end-users.

Actually, we have no evidence that users find packages useful. They download 
them because what else is there for them to do. Then if they are experienced, 
they know what’s included and how to install the missing pieces. If not, they 
thrash on forums wondering why Eclipse for Java Developers doesn’t come with an 
XML editor.

In the parallel computing community, we have plenty of evidence that the 
package is useful. We get lots of feedback that our all-in-one package is much 
preferred over having to install packages into Eclipse. Our users did this for 
years and it was a never ending source of complaints.

However, if the process was changed to downloading Eclipse, then when you first 
started Eclipse it displayed a screen that said something like "What would you 
like to use Eclipse for", then presented a list similar to the current list of 
packages, then our users would probably still be happy.

I wouldn't support the idea of creating a single download with the entire 
aggregated repository at all. Apart from being huge, it would contain many 
features that users would never use, but would add to the feature bloat and UI 
confusion. This is exactly the opposite of where we should be heading. Users 
have been saying for years that they want a simpler and more functional UI, so 
we should be focussing on how to make this happen.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Mickael Istria]

On 07/30/2013 03:57 PM, Igor Fedorenko wrote:

Are you suggesting forcing webtools on all java developers? Seriously?
I've just had a new look at the Eclipse community survey and since about 
45% (~=100% - web dev perventage - RCP percentage - non-Java users 
percentage) of Java users are doing something else that Web or Plugin 
development, it seems indeed that a Java package without WTP makes sense.
The use cases are people doing some server side stuff and plugins for 
various non-web applications (Maven, Jenkins, Ant...).


So I'm changing my mind and now agree that two distinct "Java" and "Java 
for Web development" package would still make sense. However I still 
keep thinking that "Eclipse Standard" doesn't help much.

--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat 
My blog  - My Tweets 

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Igor Fedorenko]

On 2013-07-30 5:52 PM, Mickael Istria wrote:



And seriously what again is "Standard" vs Java vs Java EE ?

I agree with that point. I'd rather see those 3 ones replaced with a
general "Java and JEE" package. It seems to make total sense with the
current status of Java development use-cases.


Are you suggesting forcing webtools on all java developers? Seriously?

--
Regards,
Igor
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Mickael Istria]

On 07/30/2013 03:23 PM, Campo, Christian wrote:
Thats what I am told that "Ultimate" is everything. You can probably 
still install more, and IntelliJ does not do C/C++ or other languages 
(I believe).
The comparison with IntelliJ may not be very helpful when it comes to 
packaging because IntelliJ is much less than what Eclipse is. IntelliJ 
isn't much more than a Java IDE; Eclipse is one level-up as a 
development platform.


So what we only had Java and C++ as the Prime Packages and then have 
specialized Packages less prominent lower on the bottom of that page ?
Just assuming that a Java developer wants to do J2ee, RCP, Webtools, 
Modeling and reporting
As a RCP developer, I really don't want webtools in my IDE. But I'd be 
fine with having to remove it once a year.
And I don't think JEE developers want PDE in their IDE. And they would 
be annoyed by having to remove stuff from the default package.
So I'm not sure the "Java" package should be so wide to include 
PDE/RCP/Modeling. Also, everyone doing RCP/Modeling stuff already has 
advance knowledge of Eclipse and is good as creating his own 
installation; I don't think such effort of refactoring packages should 
target the "Plugin developer" type of users.


The package should be sorted on the page according to the result of 
Eclipse user survery ( 
http://www.slideshare.net/IanSkerrett/eclipse-survey-2013-report-final 
page 11).



And seriously what again is "Standard" vs Java vs Java EE ?
I agree with that point. I'd rather see those 3 ones replaced with a 
general "Java and JEE" package. It seems to make total sense with the 
current status of Java development use-cases.

--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat 
My blog  - My Tweets 

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Campo, Christian]

Thats what I am told that "Ultimate" is everything. You can probably still 
install more, and IntelliJ does not do C/C++ or other languages (I believe).

So what we only had Java and C++ as the Prime Packages and then have 
specialized Packages less prominent lower on the bottom of that page ?

Just assuming that a Java developer wants to do J2ee, RCP, Webtools, Modeling 
and reporting….

I think its also something that changed over time. Today I can download 300 MB 
in no time and if my IDE sucks up half a GB of diskspace so what. If I dont 
need to worry again that I am missing something that I need to install while I 
am offline, I might go for that.

And seriously what again is "Standard" vs Java vs Java EE ?

Von: Pascal Rapicault 
mailto:pascal.rapica...@ericsson.com>>
Antworten an: Cross issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Datum: Dienstag, 30. Juli 2013 15:15
An: Cross issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Betreff: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

Are you sure that “Ultimate” actually means everything? To me the difference is 
free vs non free.

I think the problem of today’s download page is that it forces you to ask 
yourself too many questions. I’m primarily a Java developer so if there was no 
other choice I would naturally download the Java IDE. However today the dl page 
gets me wondering about whether I’m a Tester, Modeler, a shoe maker, etc... 
which diminishes my sense of having downloaded the right package 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice:_Why_More_Is_Less) because 
in the end the value that I find in those is minimal when my primary role is 
Java dev.


From: 
cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org
 [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Campo, 
Christian
Sent: July-30-13 8:56 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

I am not sure about the disaster thing really. As we are also having the 
discussion about other IDE's look at IntelliJ just for a second 
(http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/download/index.html)

They have 2 downloads. One that is free and one that is everything.

That makes it at least very simple for users of the IDE. Even if you dont agree 
on that, 90 % of the downloads are from 4 pre-packed IDEs for Eclipse.

How about an "Ultimate" edition for Eclipse. Why do I have to make a choice 
whether I want to develop J2EE, Modelling or RCP or be a Tester ? We all know 
that you can do multiple things with one IDE at the same time. The download 
page makes us think we have to make a choice.

Von: Pascal Rapicault mailto:pas...@rapicault.net>>
Antworten an: Cross issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Datum: Dienstag, 30. Juli 2013 14:05
An: Cross issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Betreff: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

An all in one IDE is a recipe for disaster and will contribute to even more FUD 
around Eclipse.
Also I fail to see which improvements to the user experience can be done since 
we would not have a specific persona to focus on.
Instead I think we should focus on improving the integrations between the tools 
that are known to be installed together (yes ideally we would need user input 
on this). IMO this will have a better chance of success since it is much more 
focused and would also involve less ppl.


On 07/30/2013 12:13 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
> so they are actually useful to end-users.

Actually, we have no evidence that users find packages useful. They download 
them because what else is there for them to do. Then if they are experienced, 
they know what’s included and how to install the missing pieces. If not, they 
thrash on forums wondering why Eclipse for Java Developers doesn’t come with an 
XML editor.

We can certainly measure the value of maintaining a menagerie of packages. All 
it would take is to put out an everything package alongside the existing ones 
and compare download numbers.

While it wouldn’t happen overnight, a single Eclipse IDE would have a unifying 
effect on the community, ultimately leading, I believe, to higher overall 
quality.

- Konstantin



From: 
cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org
 [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Mickael 
Istria
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:46 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

On 07/30/2013 12:35 AM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:

Would user experience be better if there was only one Eclipse package on the 
main download site that had pretty much everything that’s in the aggregated 
repository?
I really don't think so.
Packages are a good way to start which includes most avail

Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Pascal Rapicault]

Are you sure that “Ultimate” actually means everything? To me the difference is 
free vs non free.

I think the problem of today’s download page is that it forces you to ask 
yourself too many questions. I’m primarily a Java developer so if there was no 
other choice I would naturally download the Java IDE. However today the dl page 
gets me wondering about whether I’m a Tester, Modeler, a shoe maker, etc... 
which diminishes my sense of having downloaded the right package 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice:_Why_More_Is_Less) because 
in the end the value that I find in those is minimal when my primary role is 
Java dev.


From: cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org 
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Campo, 
Christian
Sent: July-30-13 8:56 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

I am not sure about the disaster thing really. As we are also having the 
discussion about other IDE's look at IntelliJ just for a second 
(http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/download/index.html)

They have 2 downloads. One that is free and one that is everything.

That makes it at least very simple for users of the IDE. Even if you dont agree 
on that, 90 % of the downloads are from 4 pre-packed IDEs for Eclipse.

How about an "Ultimate" edition for Eclipse. Why do I have to make a choice 
whether I want to develop J2EE, Modelling or RCP or be a Tester ? We all know 
that you can do multiple things with one IDE at the same time. The download 
page makes us think we have to make a choice.

Von: Pascal Rapicault mailto:pas...@rapicault.net>>
Antworten an: Cross issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Datum: Dienstag, 30. Juli 2013 14:05
An: Cross issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Betreff: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

An all in one IDE is a recipe for disaster and will contribute to even more FUD 
around Eclipse.
Also I fail to see which improvements to the user experience can be done since 
we would not have a specific persona to focus on.
Instead I think we should focus on improving the integrations between the tools 
that are known to be installed together (yes ideally we would need user input 
on this). IMO this will have a better chance of success since it is much more 
focused and would also involve less ppl.


On 07/30/2013 12:13 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
> so they are actually useful to end-users.

Actually, we have no evidence that users find packages useful. They download 
them because what else is there for them to do. Then if they are experienced, 
they know what’s included and how to install the missing pieces. If not, they 
thrash on forums wondering why Eclipse for Java Developers doesn’t come with an 
XML editor.

We can certainly measure the value of maintaining a menagerie of packages. All 
it would take is to put out an everything package alongside the existing ones 
and compare download numbers.

While it wouldn’t happen overnight, a single Eclipse IDE would have a unifying 
effect on the community, ultimately leading, I believe, to higher overall 
quality.

- Konstantin



From: 
cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org
 [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Mickael 
Istria
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:46 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

On 07/30/2013 12:35 AM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:

Would user experience be better if there was only one Eclipse package on the 
main download site that had pretty much everything that’s in the aggregated 
repository?
I really don't think so.
Packages are a good way to start which includes most available relevant stuff 
for release-train.



1. The package would be too large. With modern download speeds, I suspect most 
users would rather wait a few minutes longer for Eclipse to download than spend 
time later trying to figure out how to install the missing pieces. The disk 
space difference is also inconsequential these days.
A lot of people would feel better with something lighter to achieve the same 
goal. If Eclipse goes to 1.5G to download whereas NetBeans is 200M, people 
would probably try NetBeans first, and adopt it.



 2. The users prefer to not include pieces in their installation that they 
don’t use. I can see that being the case for some advanced Eclipse users, but I 
don’t believe this holds true across the user base. I suspect that most users 
would rather spend time on their development project than tuning their Eclipse 
installation.
A frequent complaint is that Eclipse contains too many things for usage, so 
many UI entries make usage more complicated and confusing. I can imagine that 
people doing some GMF stuff really don't want WTP at all because it introduce a

Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Oberhuber, Martin]

What about an “ultimate” edition of Eclipse that has all plugins _available_ 
but not necessarily _activated_ ?

Technically, a base Eclipse with the most relevant / least intrusive plugins 
preinstalled , + a downloaded p2 repo in the same download bundle with add-ons 
that are installable . Pascal said in his EclipseCon talk this year, that on an 
existing downloaded p2 repo, a “zerocopy install” is possible so activating 
your add-ons should be fast and easy.

If then the categorization and granularity of the add-ons provided is 
meaningful, and the UI for selecting them looks nice, you get a single download 
plus add-on selection wizard where you quickly can activate add-ons that you 
need. And if you need more later you don’t have to hunt for downloads or update 
sites but you simply activate them.

Eclipse.org could provide the technical foundation of this “Eclipse Ultimate” 
plus there could be another edition hosted outside Eclipse.org where also 
non-Eclipse.org content (such as Subclipse, Emacs+, ColorThemes, …) are bundled.

Thanks,
Martin
--
Martin Oberhuber, SMTS / Product Architect – Development Tools, Wind River
direct +43.662.457915.85  fax +43.662.457915.6

From: cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org 
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Campo, 
Christian
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:56 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

I am not sure about the disaster thing really. As we are also having the 
discussion about other IDE's look at IntelliJ just for a second 
(http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/download/index.html)

They have 2 downloads. One that is free and one that is everything.

That makes it at least very simple for users of the IDE. Even if you dont agree 
on that, 90 % of the downloads are from 4 pre-packed IDEs for Eclipse.

How about an "Ultimate" edition for Eclipse. Why do I have to make a choice 
whether I want to develop J2EE, Modelling or RCP or be a Tester ? We all know 
that you can do multiple things with one IDE at the same time. The download 
page makes us think we have to make a choice.

Von: Pascal Rapicault mailto:pas...@rapicault.net>>
Antworten an: Cross issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Datum: Dienstag, 30. Juli 2013 14:05
An: Cross issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Betreff: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

An all in one IDE is a recipe for disaster and will contribute to even more FUD 
around Eclipse.
Also I fail to see which improvements to the user experience can be done since 
we would not have a specific persona to focus on.
Instead I think we should focus on improving the integrations between the tools 
that are known to be installed together (yes ideally we would need user input 
on this). IMO this will have a better chance of success since it is much more 
focused and would also involve less ppl.


On 07/30/2013 12:13 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
> so they are actually useful to end-users.

Actually, we have no evidence that users find packages useful. They download 
them because what else is there for them to do. Then if they are experienced, 
they know what’s included and how to install the missing pieces. If not, they 
thrash on forums wondering why Eclipse for Java Developers doesn’t come with an 
XML editor.

We can certainly measure the value of maintaining a menagerie of packages. All 
it would take is to put out an everything package alongside the existing ones 
and compare download numbers.

While it wouldn’t happen overnight, a single Eclipse IDE would have a unifying 
effect on the community, ultimately leading, I believe, to higher overall 
quality.

- Konstantin



From: 
cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org
 [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Mickael 
Istria
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:46 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

On 07/30/2013 12:35 AM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:

Would user experience be better if there was only one Eclipse package on the 
main download site that had pretty much everything that’s in the aggregated 
repository?
I really don't think so.
Packages are a good way to start which includes most available relevant stuff 
for release-train.


---
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Campo, Christian]

I am not sure about the disaster thing really. As we are also having the 
discussion about other IDE's look at IntelliJ just for a second 
(http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/download/index.html)

They have 2 downloads. One that is free and one that is everything.

That makes it at least very simple for users of the IDE. Even if you dont agree 
on that, 90 % of the downloads are from 4 pre-packed IDEs for Eclipse.

How about an "Ultimate" edition for Eclipse. Why do I have to make a choice 
whether I want to develop J2EE, Modelling or RCP or be a Tester ? We all know 
that you can do multiple things with one IDE at the same time. The download 
page makes us think we have to make a choice.

Von: Pascal Rapicault mailto:pas...@rapicault.net>>
Antworten an: Cross issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Datum: Dienstag, 30. Juli 2013 14:05
An: Cross issues 
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>>
Betreff: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

An all in one IDE is a recipe for disaster and will contribute to even more FUD 
around Eclipse.
Also I fail to see which improvements to the user experience can be done since 
we would not have a specific persona to focus on.
Instead I think we should focus on improving the integrations between the tools 
that are known to be installed together (yes ideally we would need user input 
on this). IMO this will have a better chance of success since it is much more 
focused and would also involve less ppl.


On 07/30/2013 12:13 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
> so they are actually useful to end-users.

Actually, we have no evidence that users find packages useful. They download 
them because what else is there for them to do. Then if they are experienced, 
they know what’s included and how to install the missing pieces. If not, they 
thrash on forums wondering why Eclipse for Java Developers doesn’t come with an 
XML editor.

We can certainly measure the value of maintaining a menagerie of packages. All 
it would take is to put out an everything package alongside the existing ones 
and compare download numbers.

While it wouldn’t happen overnight, a single Eclipse IDE would have a unifying 
effect on the community, ultimately leading, I believe, to higher overall 
quality.

- Konstantin



From: 
cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org
 [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Mickael 
Istria
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:46 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting 
Eclipse?

On 07/30/2013 12:35 AM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:

Would user experience be better if there was only one Eclipse package on the 
main download site that had pretty much everything that’s in the aggregated 
repository?
I really don't think so.
Packages are a good way to start which includes most available relevant stuff 
for release-train.


1. The package would be too large. With modern download speeds, I suspect most 
users would rather wait a few minutes longer for Eclipse to download than spend 
time later trying to figure out how to install the missing pieces. The disk 
space difference is also inconsequential these days.
A lot of people would feel better with something lighter to achieve the same 
goal. If Eclipse goes to 1.5G to download whereas NetBeans is 200M, people 
would probably try NetBeans first, and adopt it.


 2. The users prefer to not include pieces in their installation that they 
don’t use. I can see that being the case for some advanced Eclipse users, but I 
don’t believe this holds true across the user base. I suspect that most users 
would rather spend time on their development project than tuning their Eclipse 
installation.
A frequent complaint is that Eclipse contains too many things for usage, so 
many UI entries make usage more complicated and confusing. I can imagine that 
people doing some GMF stuff really don't want WTP at all because it introduce a 
lot of new menus, so a GMF user which is used to the Modeling package would 
spend more time to find the relevant menus for his work, and this is pretty 
annoying.


 3. Too many plugins in one installation leads to poor user experience. If 
there are problems like that, we should be identifying and fixing them.
Eclipse is very heterogeneous in term of quality and ergonomics. That's 
something I'm afraid that can't be fixed easily because of the community being 
heterogeneous itself. Just hoping we increase and unify the usage experience 
for all projects in the release train seems totally unachievable.


 Thoughts?
Although people complain about installation taking some time, it's a yearly 
effort. Having a single package with everything installed introduce a lot of 
noise to end-user which can be very annoying and reduce productivity every day. 
I really think that good IDEs are not the ones that do everything,

Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Bugzilla hanging?

[Denis Roy]

One of the three nodes had hung itself.  Oddly, our load balancer was 
seeing it as "dead" but insisted on still sending some connections to it.


We'll look into it.  I brought the dead node back to life a couple of 
hours ago.


Denis


On 07/30/2013 06:19 AM, Wim Jongman wrote:

Connection timeout here as well.


On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Ralf Sternberg 
mailto:rsternb...@eclipsesource.com>> 
wrote:


I can't connect to bugzilla - connection timeout.

Ralf



On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Daniel Megert
mailto:daniel_meg...@ch.ibm.com>> wrote:

Works fine so far from Zurich this morning.

Dani


From: Tom Schindl mailto:tom.schi...@bestsolution.at>>
To: cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org

Date: 30.07.2013 10:03
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Bugzilla hanging?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org





for bugzilla is hanging as well.

Tom

On 30.07.13 09:08, Eike Stepper wrote:
> I didn't have any problems with Bugzilla today.
>
> Cheers
> /Eike
>
> 
> http://www.esc-net.de 
> http://thegordian.blogspot.com 
> http://twitter.com/eikestepper
>
>
>
> Am 30.07.2013 08:47, schrieb Henrik:
>> Bugzilla seems to be unresponsive for a while this morning
(Git and
>> Hudson seem to work).
>> Is anybody else experiencing this?
>>
>> -Henrik
>>
>>



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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Greg Watson]

On Jul 30, 2013, at 6:13 AM, Konstantin Komissarchik 
 wrote:

> > so they are actually useful to end-users.
>  
> Actually, we have no evidence that users find packages useful. They download 
> them because what else is there for them to do. Then if they are experienced, 
> they know what’s included and how to install the missing pieces. If not, they 
> thrash on forums wondering why Eclipse for Java Developers doesn’t come with 
> an XML editor.

In the parallel computing community, we have plenty of evidence that the 
package is useful. We get lots of feedback that our all-in-one package is much 
preferred over having to install packages into Eclipse. Our users did this for 
years and it was a never ending source of complaints.

However, if the process was changed to downloading Eclipse, then when you first 
started Eclipse it displayed a screen that said something like "What would you 
like to use Eclipse for", then presented a list similar to the current list of 
packages, then our users would probably still be happy.

I wouldn't support the idea of creating a single download with the entire 
aggregated repository at all. Apart from being huge, it would contain many 
features that users would never use, but would add to the feature bloat and UI 
confusion. This is exactly the opposite of where we should be heading. Users 
have been saying for years that they want a simpler and more functional UI, so 
we should be focussing on how to make this happen.

Regards,
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Ian Skerrett]

On 30/07/2013 7:19 AM, Lars Vogel wrote:



I agree to that, users already find the Eclipse IDE overloaded. If you 
have only one download with everything, Eclipse will feel more 
overloaded and bloated to users.


Maybe http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/ can show only the 5 most 
popular distributions with a "MORE" button to show the other packages. 
I think it used to be that way in the past, but I may be wrong here.


We just did a re-design of the download page for Kepler. The initial 
re-design was to have only 5 packages and then a MORE button. However, 
we got some pretty negative feedback, mostly from some package 
maintainers, that this would limit the visibility of their packages.



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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Pascal Rapicault]

An all in one IDE is a recipe for disaster and will contribute to even 
more FUD around Eclipse.
Also I fail to see which improvements to the user experience can be done 
since we would not have a specific persona to focus on.
Instead I think we should focus on improving the integrations between 
the tools that are known to be installed together (yes ideally we would 
need user input on this). IMO this will have a better chance of success 
since it is much more focused and would also involve less ppl.



On 07/30/2013 12:13 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:


> so they are actually useful to end-users.

Actually, we have no evidence that users find packages useful. They 
download them because what else is there for them to do. Then if they 
are experienced, they know what's included and how to install the 
missing pieces. If not, they thrash on forums wondering why Eclipse 
for Java Developers doesn't come with an XML editor.


We can certainly measure the value of maintaining a menagerie of 
packages. All it would take is to put out an everything package 
alongside the existing ones and compare download numbers.


While it wouldn't happen overnight, a single Eclipse IDE would have a 
unifying effect on the community, ultimately leading, I believe, to 
higher overall quality.


- Konstantin

*From:*cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org 
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org] *On Behalf Of 
*Mickael Istria

*Sent:* Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:46 AM
*To:* Cross project issues
*Subject:* Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages 
actually hurting Eclipse?


On 07/30/2013 12:35 AM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:

Would user experience be better if there was only one Eclipse
package on the main download site that had pretty much everything
that's in the aggregated repository?

I really don't think so.
Packages are a good way to start which includes most available 
relevant stuff for release-train.



1. *The package would be too large.* With modern download speeds, I 
suspect most users would rather wait a few minutes longer for Eclipse 
to download than spend time later trying to figure out how to install 
the missing pieces. The disk space difference is also inconsequential 
these days.


A lot of people would feel better with something lighter to achieve 
the same goal. If Eclipse goes to 1.5G to download whereas NetBeans is 
200M, people would probably try NetBeans first, and adopt it.



 2. *The users prefer to not include pieces in their installation that 
they don't use.* I can see that being the case for some advanced 
Eclipse users, but I don't believe this holds true across the user 
base. I suspect that most users would rather spend time on their 
development project than tuning their Eclipse installation.


A frequent complaint is that Eclipse contains too many things for 
usage, so many UI entries make usage more complicated and confusing. I 
can imagine that people doing some GMF stuff really don't want WTP at 
all because it introduce a lot of new menus, so a GMF user which is 
used to the Modeling package would spend more time to find the 
relevant menus for his work, and this is pretty annoying.



 3. *Too many plugins in one installation leads to poor user 
experience.* If there are problems like that, we should be identifying 
and fixing them.


Eclipse is very heterogeneous in term of quality and ergonomics. 
That's something I'm afraid that can't be fixed easily because of the 
community being heterogeneous itself. Just hoping we increase and 
unify the usage experience for all projects in the release train seems 
totally unachievable.



 Thoughts?

Although people complain about installation taking some time, it's a 
yearly effort. Having a single package with everything installed 
introduce a lot of noise to end-user which can be very annoying and 
reduce productivity every day. I really think that good IDEs are not 
the ones that do everything, but rather the ones that do correctly 
what we want to do.
Packages are not-that-bad, and it appears that most of them already 
have an interesting number of downloads, so they are actually useful 
to end-users. I don't see any indicator saying that they are bad for 
adoption of Eclipse.


--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat 
My blog  - My Tweets 





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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Stephan Herrmann]

On 07/30/2013 11:56 AM, Mickael Istria wrote:

On 07/30/2013 11:01 AM, Pascal Rapicault wrote:

- On first start, prompt the user with a customization wizard that let the user 
add more plugins to his Eclipse. For example, it
could ask questions about the language being used, the SCM, etc.

That would be an interesting approach and a good alternative to using 
installer: Ship a single vanilla Eclipse product, and have a
"your Eclipse top-ins" wizard opening p2-director on the release train + Market 
Place so that end-users could decide what they want
to install. The basics of an IDE configurations (dev language, frameworks, SCM, 
Mylyn & trackers...) could have a dedicated page.


+1

Eclipse is excellent in providing composable and configurable tools.
It's just the selection from available options that seems to
overwhelm some people, so they end up with a setup that is no
good match for their needs.

I seem to see parallels between:
- which features / plugins do I install?
- what skin meets my sense of aesthetics and ergonomics?
- what preferences fit my working habits? (see earlier thread)

We, the providers, can only make guesses at what suits people,
but couldn't we make it easier for people to *share* their
collections / configurations? Easier in terms of 1-click
export & import, and easier in terms of a community place
where collections are uploaded / voted / ranked?

May be a bad idea, if thousands of people just drop their
preferences, how is Joe Programmer gonna find something
that's good for him? I don't know ...

Maybe we need some Code Recommenders technology to give
good advice during selection :)

cheers,
Stephan
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Lars Vogel]

> A frequent complaint is that Eclipse contains too many things for usage,
so many UI entries make usage more complicated and confusing. I can imagine
that people doing some GMF stuff really don't want  WTP at all because it
introduce a lot of new menus, so a GMF user which is used to the Modeling
package would spend more time to find the relevant menus for his work, and
this is pretty annoying.

I agree to that, users already find the Eclipse IDE overloaded. If you have
only one download with everything, Eclipse will feel more overloaded and
bloated to users.

Maybe http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/ can show only the 5 most popular
distributions with a "MORE" button to show the other packages. I think it
used to be that way in the past, but I may be wrong here.



2013/7/30 Mickael Istria 

>  On 07/30/2013 12:35 AM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
>
>
> Would user experience be better if there was only one Eclipse package on
> the main download site that had pretty much everything that’s in the
> aggregated repository?
>
> I really don't think so.
> Packages are a good way to start which includes most available relevant
> stuff for release-train.
>
>
>  
> 1. *The package would be too large.* With modern download speeds, I
> suspect most users would rather wait a few minutes longer for Eclipse to
> download than spend time later trying to figure out how to install the
> missing pieces. The disk space difference is also inconsequential these
> days.
>
> A lot of people would feel better with something lighter to achieve the
> same goal. If Eclipse goes to 1.5G to download whereas NetBeans is 200M,
> people would probably try NetBeans first, and adopt it.
>
>
>  ** **2. *The users prefer to not include pieces in their installation
> that they don’t use.* I can see that being the case for some advanced
> Eclipse users, but I don’t believe this holds true across the user base. I
> suspect that most users would rather spend time on their development
> project than tuning their Eclipse installation.
>
> A frequent complaint is that Eclipse contains too many things for usage,
> so many UI entries make usage more complicated and confusing. I can imagine
> that people doing some GMF stuff really don't want WTP at all because it
> introduce a lot of new menus, so a GMF user which is used to the Modeling
> package would spend more time to find the relevant menus for his work, and
> this is pretty annoying.
>
>
>  
>
> ** **3. *Too many plugins in one installation leads to poor user
> experience.* If there are problems like that, we should be identifying
> and fixing them.
>
> Eclipse is very heterogeneous in term of quality and ergonomics. That's
> something I'm afraid that can't be fixed easily because of the community
> being heterogeneous itself. Just hoping we increase and unify the usage
> experience for all projects in the release train seems totally unachievable.
>
>  ** **Thoughts?** **
>
> Although people complain about installation taking some time, it's a
> yearly effort. Having a single package with everything installed introduce
> a lot of noise to end-user which can be very annoying and reduce
> productivity every day. I really think that good IDEs are not the ones that
> do everything, but rather the ones that do correctly what we want to do.
> Packages are not-that-bad, and it appears that most of them already have
> an interesting number of downloads, so they are actually useful to
> end-users. I don't see any indicator saying that they are bad for adoption
> of Eclipse.
>
> --
> Mickael Istria
> Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat 
> My blog  - My 
> Tweets
>
> ___
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> cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
>
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Bugzilla hanging?

[Wim Jongman]

Connection timeout here as well.


On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Ralf Sternberg <
rsternb...@eclipsesource.com> wrote:

> I can't connect to bugzilla - connection timeout.
>
> Ralf
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Daniel Megert 
> wrote:
>
>> Works fine so far from Zurich this morning.
>>
>> Dani
>>
>>
>> From:Tom Schindl 
>> To:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
>> Date:30.07.2013 10:03
>> Subject:Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Bugzilla hanging?
>> Sent by:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> for bugzilla is hanging as well.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> On 30.07.13 09:08, Eike Stepper wrote:
>> > I didn't have any problems with Bugzilla today.
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> > /Eike
>> >
>> > 
>> > http://www.esc-net.de
>> > http://thegordian.blogspot.com
>> > http://twitter.com/eikestepper
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 30.07.2013 08:47, schrieb Henrik:
>> >> Bugzilla seems to be unresponsive for a while this morning (Git and
>> >> Hudson seem to work).
>> >> Is anybody else experiencing this?
>> >>
>> >> -Henrik
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
>> >> cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
>> >> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>> >>
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
>> > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>>
>> ___
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>> cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>>
>>
>>
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>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>>
>>
>
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Konstantin Komissarchik]

> so they are actually useful to end-users.

 

Actually, we have no evidence that users find packages useful. They download
them because what else is there for them to do. Then if they are
experienced, they know what's included and how to install the missing
pieces. If not, they thrash on forums wondering why Eclipse for Java
Developers doesn't come with an XML editor.

 

We can certainly measure the value of maintaining a menagerie of packages.
All it would take is to put out an everything package alongside the existing
ones and compare download numbers.

 

While it wouldn't happen overnight, a single Eclipse IDE would have a
unifying effect on the community, ultimately leading, I believe, to higher
overall quality. 

 

- Konstantin

 

 

 

From: cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Mickael
Istria
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:46 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually
hurting Eclipse?

 

On 07/30/2013 12:35 AM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:

 

Would user experience be better if there was only one Eclipse package on the
main download site that had pretty much everything that's in the aggregated
repository?

I really don't think so.
Packages are a good way to start which includes most available relevant
stuff for release-train.




1. The package would be too large. With modern download speeds, I suspect
most users would rather wait a few minutes longer for Eclipse to download
than spend time later trying to figure out how to install the missing
pieces. The disk space difference is also inconsequential these days.

A lot of people would feel better with something lighter to achieve the same
goal. If Eclipse goes to 1.5G to download whereas NetBeans is 200M, people
would probably try NetBeans first, and adopt it.




 2. The users prefer to not include pieces in their installation that they
don't use. I can see that being the case for some advanced Eclipse users,
but I don't believe this holds true across the user base. I suspect that
most users would rather spend time on their development project than tuning
their Eclipse installation.

A frequent complaint is that Eclipse contains too many things for usage, so
many UI entries make usage more complicated and confusing. I can imagine
that people doing some GMF stuff really don't want WTP at all because it
introduce a lot of new menus, so a GMF user which is used to the Modeling
package would spend more time to find the relevant menus for his work, and
this is pretty annoying.




 3. Too many plugins in one installation leads to poor user experience. If
there are problems like that, we should be identifying and fixing them.

Eclipse is very heterogeneous in term of quality and ergonomics. That's
something I'm afraid that can't be fixed easily because of the community
being heterogeneous itself. Just hoping we increase and unify the usage
experience for all projects in the release train seems totally unachievable.




 Thoughts? 

Although people complain about installation taking some time, it's a yearly
effort. Having a single package with everything installed introduce a lot of
noise to end-user which can be very annoying and reduce productivity every
day. I really think that good IDEs are not the ones that do everything, but
rather the ones that do correctly what we want to do.
Packages are not-that-bad, and it appears that most of them already have an
interesting number of downloads, so they are actually useful to end-users. I
don't see any indicator saying that they are bad for adoption of Eclipse.

-- 
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat  
My blog   - My Tweets
 

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Ed Willink]

  
  
+1

The vanilla Welcome page is pretty empty. It could be rearranged so
that the Welcome and Customization Wizard teaser appeared together.

    Regards

        Ed Willink

On 30/07/2013 10:56, Mickael Istria
  wrote:


  
  On 07/30/2013 11:01 AM, Pascal
Rapicault wrote:
  
  

- On first start, prompt the user
  with a customization wizard that let the user add more plugins
  to his Eclipse. For example, it could ask questions about the
  language being used, the SCM, etc.

  
  That would be an interesting approach and a good alternative to
  using installer: Ship a single vanilla Eclipse product, and have a
  "your Eclipse top-ins" wizard opening p2-director on the release
  train + Market Place so that end-users could decide what they want
  to install. The basics of an IDE configurations (dev language,
  frameworks, SCM, Mylyn & trackers...) could have a dedicated
  page.
  
  -- 
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat
My blog - My
  Tweets
  
  
  
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  No virus
found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3349 / Virus Database: 3209/6531 - Release Date:
07/29/13


  

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Mickael Istria]

On 07/30/2013 11:01 AM, Pascal Rapicault wrote:
- On first start, prompt the user with a customization wizard that let 
the user add more plugins to his Eclipse. For example, it could ask 
questions about the language being used, the SCM, etc.
That would be an interesting approach and a good alternative to using 
installer: Ship a single vanilla Eclipse product, and have a "your 
Eclipse top-ins" wizard opening p2-director on the release train + 
Market Place so that end-users could decide what they want to install. 
The basics of an IDE configurations (dev language, frameworks, SCM, 
Mylyn & trackers...) could have a dedicated page.


--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat 
My blog  - My Tweets 

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Mickael Istria]

On 07/30/2013 12:35 AM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:


Would user experience be better if there was only one Eclipse package 
on the main download site that had pretty much everything that's in 
the aggregated repository?



I really don't think so.
Packages are a good way to start which includes most available relevant 
stuff for release-train.


1. *The package would be too large.* With modern download speeds, I 
suspect most users would rather wait a few minutes longer for Eclipse 
to download than spend time later trying to figure out how to install 
the missing pieces. The disk space difference is also inconsequential 
these days.
A lot of people would feel better with something lighter to achieve the 
same goal. If Eclipse goes to 1.5G to download whereas NetBeans is 200M, 
people would probably try NetBeans first, and adopt it.


2. *The users prefer to not include pieces in their installation that 
they don't use.* I can see that being the case for some advanced 
Eclipse users, but I don't believe this holds true across the user 
base. I suspect that most users would rather spend time on their 
development project than tuning their Eclipse installation.


A frequent complaint is that Eclipse contains too many things for usage, 
so many UI entries make usage more complicated and confusing. I can 
imagine that people doing some GMF stuff really don't want WTP at all 
because it introduce a lot of new menus, so a GMF user which is used to 
the Modeling package would spend more time to find the relevant menus 
for his work, and this is pretty annoying.


3. *Too many plugins in one installation leads to poor user 
experience.* If there are problems like that, we should be identifying 
and fixing them.


Eclipse is very heterogeneous in term of quality and ergonomics. That's 
something I'm afraid that can't be fixed easily because of the community 
being heterogeneous itself. Just hoping we increase and unify the usage 
experience for all projects in the release train seems totally unachievable.



Thoughts?

Although people complain about installation taking some time, it's a 
yearly effort. Having a single package with everything installed 
introduce a lot of noise to end-user which can be very annoying and 
reduce productivity every day. I really think that good IDEs are not the 
ones that do everything, but rather the ones that do correctly what we 
want to do.
Packages are not-that-bad, and it appears that most of them already have 
an interesting number of downloads, so they are actually useful to 
end-users. I don't see any indicator saying that they are bad for 
adoption of Eclipse.

--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat 
My blog  - My Tweets 

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Pascal Rapicault]

Packages are good because they provide a nice starting point for the 
user since they aggregate the most common features together (e.g. Java 
or Java EE).


I think we could improve the situation by:
- Getting rid of some of the obscure / too narrow focused packages.
- On first start, prompt the user with a customization wizard that let 
the user add more plugins to his Eclipse. For example, it could ask 
questions about the language being used, the SCM, etc.
- Breaking down the barrier of Foundation built software vs the rest of 
the ecosystem so the wizard mentioned previously could show content 
available from Eclipse Market Place.





On 07/30/2013 12:35 AM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:


There are twelve packages currently listed on the downloads page, not 
counting the promoted ones. Are so many packages actually a benefit to 
users? We try to define packages based on developer profiles, but real 
developers rarely fit a profile. One of the most common complaints 
that I have seen on forums are related to difficulties in getting an 
Eclipse installation that has all the pieces that the developer 
requires. The ironic thing is that we go through a lot of trouble to 
define a common repository with components that are known to work with 
each other, but then fragment the result into a dozen different packages.


Would user experience be better if there was only one Eclipse package 
on the main download site that had pretty much everything that's in 
the aggregated repository?


Some of the reasons for not doing that...

1. *The package would be too large.* With modern download speeds, I 
suspect most users would rather wait a few minutes longer for Eclipse 
to download than spend time later trying to figure out how to install 
the missing pieces. The disk space difference is also inconsequential 
these days.


2. *The users prefer to not include pieces in their installation that 
they don't use.* I can see that being the case for some advanced 
Eclipse users, but I don't believe this holds true across the user 
base. I suspect that most users would rather spend time on their 
development project than tuning their Eclipse installation.


3. *Too many plugins in one installation leads to poor user 
experience.* If there are problems like that, we should be identifying 
and fixing them.


Thoughts?

- Konstantin



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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Mickael Istria]

On 07/30/2013 09:09 AM, Krzysztof Daniel wrote:
I'm very skeptical about P2 in the downloader. It was created in the 
past (http://wiki.eclipse.org/Equinox_p2_Installer) and never made 
into real world. AFAIK it would suffer from the same issues as regular 
P2 - does require java to be pre-downloaded, no real integration with 
the system (privileges elevation) and extreme vulnerability to users.
If it is an installer for the Eclipse IDE, it is totally fine to expect 
that users are fine with having Java already installed.
FYI, for JBoss Developer Studio, we ship an Izpack installer which 
includes p2 director and installs the product from an included p2 
repository, after checking some preconditions. It's a cross-platform 
installer which is working fine, and AFAIK we don't get many complaints 
from customers about it.

--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat 
My blog  - My Tweets 

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Anyone beside me seeing hudson-slave2 failing since yesterday night with

[Eike Stepper]

Yes, many builds seem to fail for that reason. Yesterday I've reopened 
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=367491 but seen no reaction since.


Cheers
/Eike


http://www.esc-net.de
http://thegordian.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/eikestepper



Am 30.07.2013 09:56, schrieb Tom Schindl:

Started by timer
Building remotely on hudson-slave2
Checkout:efxclipse-runtime-1.x-nightly / 
/opt/buildhomes/hudsonBuild/workspace/efxclipse-runtime-1.x-nightly - 
hudson.remoting.Channel@51fe358a:hudson-slave2
Using strategy: Default
Last Built Revision: Revision b4f1a14c19a7a61bf1ce00ee2f4f4d46f17e60d7 
(origin/master)
FATAL: cannot assign instance of hudson.EnvVars to field 
hudson.plugins.git.GitSCM$3.val$environment of type hudson.EnvVars in instance 
of hudson.plugins.git.GitSCM$3
java.lang.ClassCastException: cannot assign instance of hudson.EnvVars to field 
hudson.plugins.git.GitSCM$3.val$environment of type hudson.EnvVars in instance 
of hudson.plugins.git.GitSCM$3
at 
java.io.ObjectStreamClass$FieldReflector.setObjFieldValues(ObjectStreamClass.java:2032)
at 
java.io.ObjectStreamClass.setObjFieldValues(ObjectStreamClass.java:1212)
at 
java.io.ObjectInputStream.defaultReadFields(ObjectInputStream.java:1953)
at java.io.ObjectInputStream.readSerialData(ObjectInputStream.java:1871)
at 
java.io.ObjectInputStream.readOrdinaryObject(ObjectInputStream.java:1753)
at java.io.ObjectInputStream.readObject0(ObjectInputStream.java:1329)
at 
java.io.ObjectInputStream.defaultReadFields(ObjectInputStream.java:1947)
at java.io.ObjectInputStream.readSerialData(ObjectInputStream.java:1871)
at 
java.io.ObjectInputStream.readOrdinaryObject(ObjectInputStream.java:1753)
at java.io.ObjectInputStream.readObject0(ObjectInputStream.java:1329)
at java.io.ObjectInputStream.readObject(ObjectInputStream.java:351)
at hudson.remoting.UserRequest.deserialize(UserRequest.java:178)
at hudson.remoting.UserRequest.perform(UserRequest.java:98)
at hudson.remoting.UserRequest.perform(UserRequest.java:48)
at hudson.remoting.Request$2.run(Request.java:283)
at 
java.util.concurrent.Executors$RunnableAdapter.call(Executors.java:441)
at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask$Sync.innerRun(FutureTask.java:303)
at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask.run(FutureTask.java:138)
at 
java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.runTask(ThreadPoolExecutor.java:886)
at 
java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.run(ThreadPoolExecutor.java:908)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:619)


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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Bugzilla hanging?

[Ralf Sternberg]

I can't connect to bugzilla - connection timeout.

Ralf


On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Daniel Megert wrote:

> Works fine so far from Zurich this morning.
>
> Dani
>
>
> From:Tom Schindl 
> To:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
> Date:30.07.2013 10:03
> Subject:Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Bugzilla hanging?
> Sent by:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org
> --
>
>
>
> for bugzilla is hanging as well.
>
> Tom
>
> On 30.07.13 09:08, Eike Stepper wrote:
> > I didn't have any problems with Bugzilla today.
> >
> > Cheers
> > /Eike
> >
> > 
> > http://www.esc-net.de
> > http://thegordian.blogspot.com
> > http://twitter.com/eikestepper
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 30.07.2013 08:47, schrieb Henrik:
> >> Bugzilla seems to be unresponsive for a while this morning (Git and
> >> Hudson seem to work).
> >> Is anybody else experiencing this?
> >>
> >> -Henrik
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> >> cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
> >> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
> >>
> >
> > ___
> > cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> > cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
> > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
> ___
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
>
>
> ___
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> cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
>
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Bugzilla hanging?

[Daniel Megert]

Works fine so far from Zurich this morning.

Dani


From:   Tom Schindl 
To: cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
Date:   30.07.2013 10:03
Subject:Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Bugzilla hanging?
Sent by:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org



for bugzilla is hanging as well.

Tom

On 30.07.13 09:08, Eike Stepper wrote:
> I didn't have any problems with Bugzilla today.
> 
> Cheers
> /Eike
> 
> 
> http://www.esc-net.de
> http://thegordian.blogspot.com
> http://twitter.com/eikestepper
> 
> 
> 
> Am 30.07.2013 08:47, schrieb Henrik:
>> Bugzilla seems to be unresponsive for a while this morning (Git and
>> Hudson seem to work).
>> Is anybody else experiencing this?
>>
>> -Henrik
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
>> cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>>
> 
> ___
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Bugzilla hanging?

[Tom Schindl]

for bugzilla is hanging as well.

Tom

On 30.07.13 09:08, Eike Stepper wrote:
> I didn't have any problems with Bugzilla today.
> 
> Cheers
> /Eike
> 
> 
> http://www.esc-net.de
> http://thegordian.blogspot.com
> http://twitter.com/eikestepper
> 
> 
> 
> Am 30.07.2013 08:47, schrieb Henrik:
>> Bugzilla seems to be unresponsive for a while this morning (Git and
>> Hudson seem to work).
>> Is anybody else experiencing this?
>>
>> -Henrik
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
>> cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>>
> 
> ___
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

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[cross-project-issues-dev] Anyone beside me seeing hudson-slave2 failing since yesterday night with

[Tom Schindl]

> Started by timer
> Building remotely on hudson-slave2
> Checkout:efxclipse-runtime-1.x-nightly / 
> /opt/buildhomes/hudsonBuild/workspace/efxclipse-runtime-1.x-nightly - 
> hudson.remoting.Channel@51fe358a:hudson-slave2
> Using strategy: Default
> Last Built Revision: Revision b4f1a14c19a7a61bf1ce00ee2f4f4d46f17e60d7 
> (origin/master)
> FATAL: cannot assign instance of hudson.EnvVars to field 
> hudson.plugins.git.GitSCM$3.val$environment of type hudson.EnvVars in 
> instance of hudson.plugins.git.GitSCM$3
> java.lang.ClassCastException: cannot assign instance of hudson.EnvVars to 
> field hudson.plugins.git.GitSCM$3.val$environment of type hudson.EnvVars in 
> instance of hudson.plugins.git.GitSCM$3
>   at 
> java.io.ObjectStreamClass$FieldReflector.setObjFieldValues(ObjectStreamClass.java:2032)
>   at 
> java.io.ObjectStreamClass.setObjFieldValues(ObjectStreamClass.java:1212)
>   at 
> java.io.ObjectInputStream.defaultReadFields(ObjectInputStream.java:1953)
>   at java.io.ObjectInputStream.readSerialData(ObjectInputStream.java:1871)
>   at 
> java.io.ObjectInputStream.readOrdinaryObject(ObjectInputStream.java:1753)
>   at java.io.ObjectInputStream.readObject0(ObjectInputStream.java:1329)
>   at 
> java.io.ObjectInputStream.defaultReadFields(ObjectInputStream.java:1947)
>   at java.io.ObjectInputStream.readSerialData(ObjectInputStream.java:1871)
>   at 
> java.io.ObjectInputStream.readOrdinaryObject(ObjectInputStream.java:1753)
>   at java.io.ObjectInputStream.readObject0(ObjectInputStream.java:1329)
>   at java.io.ObjectInputStream.readObject(ObjectInputStream.java:351)
>   at hudson.remoting.UserRequest.deserialize(UserRequest.java:178)
>   at hudson.remoting.UserRequest.perform(UserRequest.java:98)
>   at hudson.remoting.UserRequest.perform(UserRequest.java:48)
>   at hudson.remoting.Request$2.run(Request.java:283)
>   at 
> java.util.concurrent.Executors$RunnableAdapter.call(Executors.java:441)
>   at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask$Sync.innerRun(FutureTask.java:303)
>   at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask.run(FutureTask.java:138)
>   at 
> java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.runTask(ThreadPoolExecutor.java:886)
>   at 
> java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.run(ThreadPoolExecutor.java:908)
>   at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:619)

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Are too many packages actually hurting Eclipse?

[Krzysztof Daniel]

On Tue, 2013-07-30 at 00:36 +, Doug Schaefer wrote:
> +1 for that. I've seen (and made for that matter) commercial products
> do that. Download a minimal p2 install with an Eclipse application
> that drives the rest of the install. We could ask for a list of
> languages or platforms they want to develop for and then install the
> necessary components.

I'm very skeptical about P2 in the downloader. It was created in the
past (http://wiki.eclipse.org/Equinox_p2_Installer) and never made into
real world. AFAIK it would suffer from the same issues as regular P2 -
does require java to be pre-downloaded, no real integration with the
system (privileges elevation) and extreme vulnerability to users.

I'd rather focus on opening P2 to 3rd party installers [1] and offered
users more OS-specific experience. No need to reinvent the wheel.

[1] Bug 378329: Support 3rd party installers

-- 
Krzysztof Daniel 
Red Hat

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Bugzilla hanging?

[Eike Stepper]

I didn't have any problems with Bugzilla today.

Cheers
/Eike


http://www.esc-net.de
http://thegordian.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/eikestepper



Am 30.07.2013 08:47, schrieb Henrik:

Bugzilla seems to be unresponsive for a while this morning (Git and Hudson seem 
to work).
Is anybody else experiencing this?

-Henrik



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