Re: [css-d] Negative text-indent: lack of details in the specs

[fantasai]

On 07/09/2010 09:30 AM, Gabriele Romanato wrote:
> Hi all!
> Just some reflections:
>
> http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-negative-css-text-indent-doesnt.html

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visufx.html#overflow-clipping

> we need to make more tests on this issue.

Tests are always helpful. I didn't see any tests in the test suite on this,
except hixie's:
   http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20100701/xhtml1/text-indent-010.xht

~fantasai
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[css-d] Bottom-Menu doesnt pad out so that there is spacing between menu links and text

[Dipesh Parmar]

I'm currently working on a site: http://dvpwebdesign.com/test/index.html, where 
i am having issues with the bottom menu layout on the index page. I've set up 
individual divs for each menu so i can alter menu color and text. I've used 
margins of 33px for 3 of the menu divs from the left so that they should all be 
spaced out over the 900px width, but it doesnt budge. I've set the margin-right 
to 33px which should work but it doesnt, anyone have any ideas why it doesnt?

regards

Dipesh



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Re: [css-d] Bottom-Menu doesnt pad out so that there is spacing between menu links and text

[Dipesh Parmar]

Apologies everyone, problem resolved!


On 11 Jul 2010, at 12:10, Dipesh Parmar wrote:

> I'm currently working on a site: http://dvpwebdesign.com/test/index.html, 
> where i am having issues with the bottom menu layout on the index page. I've 
> set up individual divs for each menu so i can alter menu color and text. I've 
> used margins of 33px for 3 of the menu divs from the left so that they should 
> all be spaced out over the 900px width, but it doesnt budge. I've set the 
> margin-right to 33px which should work but it doesnt, anyone have any ideas 
> why it doesnt?
> 
> regards
> 
> Dipesh
> 
> 
> 
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[css-d] browser reports please

[Chris Blake]

Hi,

http://blakeys.com/design/index.php/en/blakeys-websites-introduction

I am just playing around with getting some things to work and the  
imageflow and layout looks fine in mac os x; safari 5 and Firefox but  
my friend has just sent me a crazy jpg showing the two columns  
underneath being all over the place.

Please let me know what you see. You'll have to turn on javascript for  
this one I'm afraid.

Any constructive tips would be most welcome.

Thanks, CB
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Re: [css-d] browser reports please

[David Laakso]

Chris Blake wrote:
>
> http://blakeys.com/design/index.php/en/blakeys-websites-introduction
>
> I am just playing around with getting some things to work and the  
> imageflow and layout looks fine in mac os x; safari 5 and Firefox but  
> my friend has just sent me a crazy jpg showing the two columns  
> underneath being all over the place.
>
> Please let me know what you see. You'll have to turn on javascript for  
> this one I'm afraid.
>
> Any constructive tips would be most welcome.
>
> Thanks, CB
>   






I think you will want to view your site in IE 6/7/8.

Fwiw, minimum font-size users [16px here], or those who employ 
font-scaling [up or down] will do a number on it. You may want to 
validate the markup.

Best,
~d





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Re: [css-d] browser reports please

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Chris Blake wrote:

> Yes, I am sure it's not w3c compliant at the moment but I
> will look into that if I can get things working. It might be a bit
> backwards but 6 errors isn't too many,

Dear Chris -- With the greatest respect, one error is too
many, not for reasons of pedantry but simply because you
won't be able to "get things working" (other than by pure
serendipity) all the while a single error remains.  Start
by addressing the errors, then (and only then) start
worrying about "getting things working" : they may well
work all by themselves once the errors are removed.

** Phil.
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Re: [css-d] browser reports please

[David Laakso]

Chris Blake wrote:
>
> http://blakeys.com/design/index.php/en/blakeys-websites-introduction
>
>
> Any constructive tips would be most welcome.
>
> CB
>   






This /may/ help...?


Best,
~d

PS
Crashes IETester on Mac OS X 10.4 running Parallels.




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[css-d] ie7 and Safari 5 issues.

[MEM]

Hello all,


I believe we can now see all the information regardless the viewport size.
I've added the position fixed property only for those that have a
width and height greater then a certain value.
I've used media queries and add a js to deal with IE versions.

Users that zoom in text, on the "fixed" version will still have
problems. I realize that.


I would like to request your help, for two big issues that I'm unable to solve:

The URI: www.nuvemk.com/nascer/

The CSS: http://www.nuvemk.com/nascer/Css/Main.css


1)
IE 7 - it seems that it adds a 309px offset on the left side of
#wrapper-esquerda
   I have set no left property value for this #wrapper-esquerda, and
the offset still applies on a fixed position.
   Could it be related with the right-wrapper margin? Any help on how
can we fix this?

2)
In Safari 5.0 - #contactos-content and #a-nuvemk-content seems that
their width is not respected.


Thanks in advance,
Márcio


ps-I'm on Safari 5.0 windows version, but I can't find inspect element
option anywhere.
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Re: [css-d] ie7 and Safari 5 issues.

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Oh, that is /desperately/ slow, Márcio : 23 seconds
to complete loading.  I am afraid I wouldn't be
willing to wait that long in the real world.  I really
think you need to reduce the complexity and increase
the efficiency.

Philip Taylor

MEM wrote:

> I would like to request your help, for two big issues that I'm unable to 
> solve:
>
> The URI: www.nuvemk.com/nascer/
>
> The CSS: http://www.nuvemk.com/nascer/Css/Main.css
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Re: [css-d] ie7 and Safari 5 issues.

[MEM]

2010/7/11 Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) :
> Oh, that is /desperately/ slow, Márcio : 23 seconds
> to complete loading.  I am afraid I wouldn't be
> willing to wait that long in the real world.  I really
> think you need to reduce the complexity and increase
> the efficiency.
>
> Philip Taylor
> 


Yes. :( I'm thinking about ajax, and image size reduction.
Maybe that will do it.


But apart from that, the ie7 and safari, but mostly the ie7 issue, is
quite a serious one because IE7 is the main browser around here.
And even if they have ie8, the "compatibility" (arrGHR) mode may be enabled.
:s
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Re: [css-d] ie7 and Safari 5 issues.

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

OK, again not an answer to your real problem, Márcio,
but as a visitor I would expect to be able to click
on the "+" sign, not on the text, in order to expand
the view.

Philip Taylor

MEM wrote:

> Yes. :( I'm thinking about ajax, and image size reduction.
> Maybe that will do it.
>
> But apart from that, the ie7 and safari, but mostly the ie7 issue, is
> quite a serious one because IE7 is the main browser around here.
> And even if they have ie8, the "compatibility" (arrGHR) mode may be enabled.
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[css-d] Use of empty DIVs?

[Tim Offenstein]

I'd like some feedback on this. I'm teaching a class on web design to students 
who've had various levels of training. I'm seeing a number of students mark up 
their XHTML with descriptively named DIVs that have no counterpart in the CSS. 
Is this some kind of XML holdover or what? Am I missing some coding practice or 
method for why this is being done? I don't recommend this because (1) it clogs 
up the HTML with useless stuff, and (2) there's potential to break the page if 
a DIV isn't closed. If this is an attempt to section/categorize the code, 
simple HTML comments will serve the purpose much better. 

Any thoughts? 

-Tim

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Re: [css-d] Use of empty DIVs?

[Val Dobson]

I agree with you. Information within the code that's meant for humans
to read should go into comments; div and ID names themselves should be
fairly descriptive anyway (#maincontent, #leftcol etc.).  HTML
elements such as divs are meant to be read only by the browser and
making the browser search the stylesheet for non-existent elements
must have some effect on performance.
And, as you point out, there's scope for forgetting to close a div.

Val


On 11 July 2010 21:10, Tim Offenstein  wrote:
> I'd like some feedback on this. I'm teaching a class on web design to 
> students who've had various levels of training. I'm seeing a number of 
> students mark up their XHTML with descriptively named DIVs that have no 
> counterpart in the CSS. Is this some kind of XML holdover or what? Am I 
> missing some coding practice or method for why this is being done? I don't 
> recommend this because (1) it clogs up the HTML with useless stuff, and (2) 
> there's potential to break the page if a DIV isn't closed. If this is an 
> attempt to section/categorize the code, simple HTML comments will serve the 
> purpose much better.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> -Tim
>
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Re: [css-d] Use of empty DIVs?

[Chris F.A. Johnson]

On Sun, 11 Jul 2010, Tim Offenstein wrote:

> I'd like some feedback on this. I'm teaching a class on web design
> to students who've had various levels of training. I'm seeing a
> number of students mark up their XHTML

   Why XHTML?

> with descriptively named DIVs that have no counterpart in the CSS.
> Is this some kind of XML holdover or what? Am I missing some coding
> practice or method for why this is being done? I don't recommend
> this because (1) it clogs up the HTML with useless stuff, and (2)
> there's potential to break the page if a DIV isn't closed.

   If a DIV isn't closed, it's not valid [X]HTML; it should get a
   failing grade.

> If this is an attempt to section/categorize the code, simple HTML
> comments will serve the purpose much better.

   The classes and IDs can be used later when the CSS is modified.

-- 
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   Author:
   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
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Re: [css-d] Use of empty DIVs?

[Chris F.A. Johnson]

On Sun, 11 Jul 2010, Val Dobson wrote:

> I agree with you. Information within the code that's meant for humans
> to read should go into comments; div and ID names themselves should be
> fairly descriptive anyway (#maincontent, #leftcol etc.).

   #leftcol is not a good name. What if the design changes later and
   that column is on the right?

-- 
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   Author:
   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
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[css-d] sticky footer issue in Opera 10.6

[Debbie Campbell]

I'm using the footerStickAlt sticky footer method on this site-in-progress:

> http://www.redkitecreative.com/projects/optienz/jobs/

It seems to be working fine in FF, Safari, Chrome, IE8/7 but is breaking 
in Opera 10.6 and below. Can someone tell me how to fix it or where to 
find more info on the problem?

-- 
Debbie Campbell
www.redkitecreative.com
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Re: [css-d] ie7 and Safari 5 issues.

[MEM]

2010/7/11 Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) :
> OK, again not an answer to your real problem, Márcio,
> but as a visitor I would expect to be able to click
> on the "+" sign, not on the text, in order to expand
> the view.
>
> Philip Taylor
> 

Yes. It was on my list before, I end up forgetting.
Now we can click on the plus sign/minus and it will expand/contract.
And we can also click on the text and the same thing will happen.

The ie7 issue stays a mystery to me. I've added a left value on a IE7
and below css. And the "issue" is solved, or hacked around.

The next issue, is the Safari, I'm already playing with the element
inspector (going to preferences on Safari did the trick), but still no
luck so far.

Thanks for point out some issues here and there, they are more then
welcome. :) I have a life to learn about this. :D

The Safari issue, stills there. :(

Márcio
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Re: [css-d] sticky footer issue in Opera 10.6

[MEM]

2010/7/11 Debbie Campbell :
> I'm using the footerStickAlt sticky footer method on this site-in-progress:
>
>> http://www.redkitecreative.com/projects/optienz/jobs/
>
> It seems to be working fine in FF, Safari, Chrome, IE8/7 but is breaking
> in Opera 10.6

I'm on Vista and in Opera 10.6 the footer stays at the bottom, just
like in other browsers that I've tested. I see no difference between
Opera 10.6 and FF 3.6 for example.
Cache?

K. Regards,
Márcio
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Re: [css-d] Use of empty DIVs?

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

> Why XHTML?
>
> If a DIV isn't closed, it's not valid [X]HTML; it should get a
> failing grade.
>
> The classes and IDs can be used later when the CSS is modified.


I have to say, I'm more-or-less with Chris on this one.  An unclosed
DIV is no better and no worse than any other unclosed element that
requires closure, so saying "avoid DIVs because you might forget
to close them" makes little sense to me. But to address the real
issue : while I could see no reason whatsoever for

 ... 

I can see every reason for examples such as

 ...  ... 

where the two inner DIVs together compose a single
logical unit, the limits of which are delimited by
the outer DIV.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] ie7 and Safari 5 issues.

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

MEM wrote:

> Thanks for point out some issues here and there, they are more then
> welcome. :) I have a life to learn about this. :D

OK, then another one :-)

When I click on the first "+", it expands (reveals) that region;
when I click on the second "+", it expands (reveals) that region;
but when I click on the third "+", it expands (reveals) that region,
yet contracts (conceals) the first two.  But I didn't ask it to,
nor did I want it to.

** Phil.
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Re: [css-d] ie7 and Safari 5 issues.

[MEM]

2010/7/11 MEM :
> The Safari issue, stills there. :(
>
> Márcio
>



Well If I was Safari I would do the same. Strange however that others
don't follow.

My #wrapper-esquerda element was defined with a overflow:hidden;
property. (at the time I wanted to contain something perhaps), since
it was contained already, the overflow:hidden was hidding the overflow
content. :)

Oh well... removed overflow:hidden from the #wrapper-esquerda seems to
have done it. :D


Regards,
Márcio
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Re: [css-d] ie7 and Safari 5 issues.

[MEM]

2010/7/11 Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) :
>
>
> MEM wrote:
>
>> Thanks for point out some issues here and there, they are more then
>> welcome. :) I have a life to learn about this. :D
>
> OK, then another one :-)
>
> When I click on the first "+", it expands (reveals) that region;
> when I click on the second "+", it expands (reveals) that region;
> but when I click on the third "+", it expands (reveals) that region,
> yet contracts (conceals) the first two.  But I didn't ask it to,
> nor did I want it to.
>
> ** Phil.
>


Yes. :) The reason why we cannot have all expanded it's because, if we
have all expanded the "portfolio 100% height cool effect" is lost.

K. Regards,
Márcio
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Re: [css-d] ie7 and Safari 5 issues.

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

MEM wrote:

> Yes. :) The reason why we cannot have all expanded it's because, if we
> have all expanded the "portfolio 100% height cool effect" is lost.

OK, but will your visitors think it "cool" ?  Or would they prefer
to have control over what is concealed and what is revealed.  As
one potential visitor to your site, I would find it infuriating
if it insisted on hiding the first two regions just because I
wanted to take a look at the third ...

** Phil.
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Re: [css-d] ie7 and Safari 5 issues.

[MEM]

2010/7/11 Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) :
> OK, but will your visitors think it "cool" ?  Or would they prefer
> to have control over what is concealed and what is revealed.

They sure prefer to have control and I sure prefer to give them that
control, to show or hide, and to do, only what is expected to do.
I'm not a designer but I like to discuss those matters with them when
they first present me the layout to construct.

The options were:
Either we have this vertical effect, or we had a true accordion
solution (that I personally dislike for the same reasons you have
pointed), or, as a third solution, the one actually on the forge.

As a user, when I'm viewing some images, I would love to have the
maximum comfort and space available for them. That was the compromise.
Perfect solution, I've never found one. :) But I'm sure keep on trying
and that's why I love all the comments I may get. ;)


>As one potential visitor to your site, I would find it infuriating
> if it insisted on hiding the first two regions just because I
> wanted to take a look at the third ...
>
> ** Phil.

Well, here I would say, that I will be very angry as well, but on one
condition, if, for some reason, it was important to have (for
cross-data proposes or something else), access to both information at
the same time.
I cannot see a reason for doing so on this context. (that doesn't mean
that no one else sees one, of course, still, that is something that I
would like to see how the end users will react to that, by thinking
out loud), and if it's really a big usability issue, then the vertical
portfolio effect will be dropped.


K. Regards,
Márcio
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Re: [css-d] ie7 and Safari 5 issues.

[David Laakso]

MEM wrote:
> I would like to request your help, for two big issues that I'm unable to 
> solve:
>
> The URI: www.nuvemk.com/nascer/
>
>
>
>
> Márcio
>
>   













Keep it simple. Oh, easy for Leonardo. Far more difficult for the rest of us...


Best,
~d







-- 

http://chelseacreekstudio.com/

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Re: [css-d] ie7 and Safari 5 issues.

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

MEM wrote:

> Well, here I would say, that I will be very angry as well, but on one
> condition, if, for some reason, it was important to have (for
> cross-data proposes or something else), access to both information at
> the same time.
> I cannot see a reason for doing so on this context. (that doesn't mean
> that no one else sees one, of course, still, that is something that I
> would like to see how the end users will react to that, by thinking
> out loud), and if it's really a big usability issue, then the vertical
> portfolio effect will be dropped.

OK, one final comment then time to move on.  I think the root
of the problem is one of user expectation : with a tabbed interface,
the user knows in advance that he/she will be able to see the
contents of exactly one tab at a time, and that revealing the
contents of one tab will necessarily entail the concealing
of the contents of the other(s) (the "radio button" effect);
with an expand/contract interface, I believe that the user
expectation would be that each expand/contract control is
independent, and therefore he/she wold not expect that expanding
one would contract two others, /particularly/ if, like me, he/she
starts by expanding the first, then the second, then the third --
since expanding the second did not contract the first, I have
already been led to believe that expansion does not also entail
contraction.

ENDS :-)

** Phil.
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Re: [css-d] Use of empty DIVs?

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Tim Offenstein wrote:

> I'm seeing a number
> of students mark up their XHTML with descriptively named DIVs that
> have no counterpart in the CSS.

This is a general design issue and about markup, not CSS.

>From the CSS perspective, there are some risks, whether you mean classes or 
ids (or both) by "names". The "names" may pollute the name space, especially 
if people do not realize that id attributes must be unique. For example, I 
have seen a stituation with two id attributes (in code that I cannot change 
in any direct way) that differ in case of letters only, and it seems that 
when you have id="foo" and id="Foo" (violating HTML rules), browsers won't 
treat either of them as matching the selector #foo (or #Foo)! Similarly, if 
lots of class attributes are used extensively and carelessly, you might 
notice that setting properties for .bar sets them for elements you weren't 
thinking about (since in the past you forgot, I you had used class="bar" 
somewhere, or a previous author of the page did).

These can however be avoided by good general design and documentation, which 
is needed anyway, to keep track of the classes and ids you really need.

On the positive side, understandability of HTML source code is useful when 
you later modify or debug the CSS code. "Extra" names can be handy later in 
styling, as already mentioned in this discussion. And they can be 
indispensable to users who wish (or need) to set up a user style sheet for 
viewing the page: they cannot change the markup, they have to work with the 
"hooks" offered by classes, ids, and maybe other attributes present in the 
source,

> If this is an attempt to section/categorize the
> code, simple HTML comments will serve the purpose much better.

HTML comments are risky and clumsy. It's too easy to make a mistake in 
typing the  as well as use -- inside the comment. In CSS, 
comments are safer; their main problems are that they consume bandwidth 
(since comments are sent along with CSS code every time a browser requests 
for it) and that they they to degrade by time (people change code but don't 
update the comments).

Yucca 

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