Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
Too much back and forth based on assumptions in this thread, me thinks. What matters is that what gets released works reasonably well for all end-users no matter what, so I'll just add the following (old) article... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_36.html ...where I'll especially point to the *visitors' privilege* section and the linked-in examples in same section, and leave it at that. regards Georg __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
G.Sørtun wrote: Too much back and forth based on assumptions in this thread, me thinks. What matters is that what gets released works reasonably well for all end-users no matter what, so I'll just add the following (old) article... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_36.html ...where I'll especially point to the *visitors' privilege* section and the linked-in examples in same section, and leave it at that. Excellent read - thanks for mentioning it! -- David gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
I hate to point this out, but it would be unfortunate if those reading this thread consider this an example of good use of CSS and HTML: http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_36.html The page has 9 (yes 9!) wrapper or container divs that serve no semantic purpose. Not to mention the empty 'spacer' div, the 0-height hr element, the mixing of block and inline child elements in a div, the huge number of nbsp entities and using three periods instead of hellip . If there ever was a page design that could benefit from some structural Javascript, this would be it! ~Chetan On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 3:11 PM, G.Sørtun gunla...@c2i.net wrote: Too much back and forth based on assumptions in this thread, me thinks. What matters is that what gets released works reasonably well for all end-users no matter what, so I'll just add the following (old) article... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_36.html ...where I'll especially point to the *visitors' privilege* section and the linked-in examples in same section, and leave it at that. regards Georg __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
On 04.12.2010 11:38, Chetan Crasta wrote: I hate to point this out, but it would be unfortunate if those reading this thread consider this an example of good use of CSS and HTML: http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_36.html The page has 9 (yes 9!) wrapper or container divs that serve no semantic purpose. Not to mention the empty 'spacer' div, the 0-height hr element, the mixing of block and inline child elements in a div, the huge number ofnbsp entities and using three periods instead of hellip . Yes, it would be a shame... :-) http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_26.html ...but that's how I used to tame old browsers back in the days, and it still works so I haven't bothered to upgrade it and lose control over same old browsers until they are gone - for good. The empty spacer divs (with comments) are one of the most robust ways to force some of the old browser versions still in circulation to behave as if they understood min-width/min-height without upsetting new browsers, so they are not going anywhere - soon. As for the nbsp and tripple periods ... sure we're looking at the same source-code? I use numerical entities - put there by my good friend HTMLTidy[1], and there are actually a few '#160;' missing in that page. I don't like single words on last line in paragraphs or single-letter words like I at the end of lines, and see no point in adding elements for styling to achieve this since that both adds weight and fails in browsers that don't support CSS. My entire site with its several hundred articles/pages is a live test-bed for browsers, and contains many elements and styles that are not supposed to make sense to anyone but me. If any of that confuses other web designers / coders, so be it - can't be helped. The worst of it can be found under browser targeting CSS hacks[2], in case anyone wants to see some really bad use of CSS styling. As end-user I often surf with no script or CSS support, so obviously I at least want my own pages to present their content well under such conditions. So add me to the insignificant number of problematic end-users that actually know how to use their browsers and how it all works, and be done with it. regards Georg [1] http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_07.html [2] http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_42.html __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
This sounds interesting (as in: a brand new way to fail). Is there a pattern or a rule of thumb regarding which script passes the block, and do you perhaps know if the ruleset is something that comes with the proxy or has been created anew? djn david wrote: Well, my employer has 1600 staff members browsing the web with IE6, protected by a proxy that strips some (but not all) Javascript. -- - Dejan Kozina Web design studio Dolina 346 (TS) - I-34018 Italy tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 - cell.: +39 348 7355 225 skype: dejankozina http://www.kozina.com/ - e-mail: de...@kozina.com __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
@Barney: I didn't say that the script would automatically identify those elements that require hasLayout. I don't think such a script exists. I've made two example webpages which require zoom to work in IE7: one with zoom:1 applied using CSS and the other with zoom applied with javascript. roughtech.com/t/example.html and roughtech.com/t/example1.html The rendering delay, which is in the order of microseconds, is almost undetectable. The advantage of this technique is that the stylesheet contains only valid CSS. @Georg: The hellip is converted to three periods in Firefox 3.6's View Source and in Firebug. This looks like a bug in the browser. After reading your explanation I still don't think the huge amount of non-semantic code is justified. Sure you're site might work perfectly in Internet Explorer 3 running on Windows 95 with a Pentium 200 Mhz and a 14.4 kbps modem, but does anybody care? Why burden search engine bots and normal users with cruft that shouldn't have got past the 90s? ~Chetan On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Barney Carroll barney.carr...@gmail.com wrote: Chetan, you contradict yourself. On the one hand, you say that you apply hasLayout via script (I'm still interested in when you apply it — every method I can think of involves a delay between initial render and application of the fix — meaning your sites would have a visual flicker of unfixed layout — not an issue with the other methods), then on the other hand you say that you apply non-semantic markup and classes via script as well — and any hook that identified elements needing hasLayout would have to be non-semantic as it relates to a render-agent-specific bug — so what purely scripted method do you use to identify which elements need the fix? Again, I'd be very interested to see the full working script for this; or the revelation that the method is in fact 100% ill-conceived idle theory ;) Sent from my iPod On 4 Dec 2010, at 07:16, Chetan Crasta chetancra...@gmail.com wrote: @David: I think it is established, with reasonable accuracy, that a very small percentage (~1%) of surfers block Javascript. If somebody wants to make sure that their site looks absolutely perfect to the 12 people that surf using Internet Explorer 6 with a Javascript blocking proxy wearing tin-foil hats, that's their choice -- hats off to them. As for me, I believe my energy is better spent making my webpages work well for 99% of my sites visitors. ~Chetan On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 12:01 PM, david gn...@hawaii.rr.com wrote: Chetan Crasta wrote: Javascript can considerably improve the aesthetics, Not for a site that's properly-designed in the first place. usability That is one point where JS can provide functionality. and semantics of a site, JS should have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SEMANTICS of a site. That should be in the HTML where it belongs, NOT IN JS. so it would be a pity if one disables it just to avoid the odd bad apple. There's a hell of a lot of bad apples out there - tons of malicious sites, scammers even cracking into supposedly-trustworthy services like akamai.net and planting attacks. So it's not the odd bad apple. I never had to disable Javascript because good content is found on well-designed sites. The sites with the ugly Javascript are the ones that I wouldn't visit more than once, with or without Javascript. I've been on a number of sites where I had to disable their CSS so I could read their content. Sadly, a number of those sites were the home pages of web design firms! ~Chetan On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com wrote: From: Chetan Crasta About 1% of Yahoo's visitors had Javascript disabled (2% for Yahoo USA) [-CM-] % of Yahoo visitors disabling js canNOT be used to extrapolate % of all web users disabling js. I haven't visited Yahoo in years and I'm sure that's true of a large % of web users. I also suspect that the type of visitor who would disable js is not the type of visitor that is attracted to Yahoo. Then there's information buried in the comments at http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javas cript-disabled/ that Yahoo redirects mobile users to a different page, so that also skews the results. Within my group of contacts, about 30% block JavaScript all the time, probably another 10%+ block js some of the time. You'd have to dig into what % of your target market is also Yahoo visitors and only if that is a large percentage should Yahoo visitors be used an indicator for % of your site's visitors will have js disabled. Web visitors are not homogeneous. But that's not all you should consider. Nothing on the web stays the same. All it will take is another widespread js security problem then % of visitors disabling js would increase. Or maybe another popular mobile device will ship with js disabled as default, or a browser with js disabled as a default, or
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
On 4/12/2010 9:38 PM, Chetan Crasta wrote:
I hate to point this out, but it would be unfortunate if those reading
this thread consider this an example of good use of CSS and HTML:
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_36.html
The page has 9 (yes 9!) wrapper or container divs that serve no
semantic purpose.
Hello Chetan.
Those wrappers are there to help IE6 and IE7 along. The design /
structure works well over a large spectrum of viewport width. Those who
argue over the use of non semantics divs would also be arguing over
resets, non-consequential selectors strings.
#wrapper #content .two-columns p.special {...}
At least we can all have our own individuality while arguing over *CSS*.
Odd how JS only came into this thread after someone mentioned that zoom:
1 can be applied with JS.
Not to mention the empty 'spacer' div, the 0-height
hr element, the mixing of block and inline child elements in a div,
the huge number ofnbsp entities and using three periods instead of
hellip .
Must check. I bet that if I copied the code and used a xml or xhtml
extension, it would still be valid.
If there ever was a page design that could benefit from some
structural Javascript, this would be it!
~Chetan
Did you just say benefit? Sorry but cool CSS just make JS look silly
(works nice in Safari).
http://css-class.com/test/demos/thumbgallery-transition2.htm
Since I follow the development of CSS specifications, I can assure you
that the above demo only show a little of how CSS will make JS redundant
for style and structure, leaving JS for behavior only.
The initial poster asked quite an importance question about hasLayout
triggering best practice. They asked this on a CSS list since they
wanted CSS solutions about buggy CSS behavior by IE7 or earlier versions
of IE.
--
Alan http://css-class.com/
Armies Cannot Stop An Idea Whose Time Has Come. - Victor Hugo
__
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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
@Georg: The hellip is converted to three periods in Firefox 3.6's View Source and in Firebug. This looks like a bug in the browser. Probably... ... I wouldn't know since I never view source on web pages in Firefox/Firebug/whatever. I use Opera for that since it doesn't convert, add or subtract anything. It's a personal preference thing, and it works wonderfully. After reading your explanation I still don't think the huge amount of non-semantic code is justified. That's OK. Again, it's a personal preference thing, and the term huge is relative (see below). Sure you're site might work perfectly in Internet Explorer 3 running on Windows 95 with a Pentium 200 Mhz and a 14.4 kbps modem, but does anybody care? Why burden search engine bots and normal users with cruft that shouldn't have got past the 90s? As you may or may not know: the compatibility view in new IE versions renders pages as in IE5.5, so that's a natural cut-off line even if my quirks mode pages (as old IE sees them) cover a lot of ground across browserland. As for modems: yes, there are quite a few (millions) of the at-or-below 56Kbps in use around, so I infrequently test through one of those contraptions too. Apart from a few hundred bytes in the source-code I don't burden normal users with anything since only those old browsers get to load/see the few thousand bytes of CSS and whatnot I have prepared for them - especially older IE are well served[1] - some like to say overserved. So, in essence the burden is lighter than for most sites with somewhat similar complex designs/constructions in modern browsers, and search engines don't seem to have any problems with my site either. FWIW: we have pretty much answered the OP's questions, so if you have more questions/objections related to my appalling constructions you think are relevant on this list you should start a new thread. Otherwise contact me off-list and I'll try to serve more detailed explanations to whatever you want to know. regards Georg [1] http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_12.html __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
I think this article is relevant to this discussion:
http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/10/22/javascript-will-save-us-all/
I agree with it completely.
~Chetan
On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Alan Gresley a...@css-class.com wrote:
On 4/12/2010 9:38 PM, Chetan Crasta wrote:
I hate to point this out, but it would be unfortunate if those reading
this thread consider this an example of good use of CSS and HTML:
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_36.html
The page has 9 (yes 9!) wrapper or container divs that serve no
semantic purpose.
Hello Chetan.
Those wrappers are there to help IE6 and IE7 along. The design / structure
works well over a large spectrum of viewport width. Those who argue over the
use of non semantics divs would also be arguing over resets,
non-consequential selectors strings.
#wrapper #content .two-columns p.special {...}
At least we can all have our own individuality while arguing over *CSS*. Odd
how JS only came into this thread after someone mentioned that zoom: 1 can
be applied with JS.
Not to mention the empty 'spacer' div, the 0-height
hr element, the mixing of block and inline child elements in a div,
the huge number ofnbsp entities and using three periods instead of
hellip .
Must check. I bet that if I copied the code and used a xml or xhtml
extension, it would still be valid.
If there ever was a page design that could benefit from some
structural Javascript, this would be it!
~Chetan
Did you just say benefit? Sorry but cool CSS just make JS look silly (works
nice in Safari).
http://css-class.com/test/demos/thumbgallery-transition2.htm
Since I follow the development of CSS specifications, I can assure you that
the above demo only show a little of how CSS will make JS redundant for
style and structure, leaving JS for behavior only.
The initial poster asked quite an importance question about hasLayout
triggering best practice. They asked this on a CSS list since they wanted
CSS solutions about buggy CSS behavior by IE7 or earlier versions of IE.
--
Alan http://css-class.com/
Armies Cannot Stop An Idea Whose Time Has Come. - Victor Hugo
__
css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
On 12/4/10 10:04 AM, Chetan Crasta wrote: I think this article is relevant to this discussion: http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/10/22/javascript-will-save-us-all/ I agree with it completely. ~Chetan That's nice. I have a red pencil box. I like it a lot. Best, ~d PS It is not a list policy but bottom posting and trimming is appreciated. __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
David Laakso wrote: PS It is not a list policy but bottom posting ... is appreciated. By some : others prefer to read what the respondent has to say, rather than having to wade through recycled material before learning anything new. Philip Taylor -- Not sent from my i-Pad, i-Phone, Blackberry, Blueberry, or any such similar poseurs' toy, none of which would I be seen dead with even if they came free with every packet of cornflakes. __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
Sorry - I have no idea of the details behind their filtering. Dejan Kozina wrote: This sounds interesting (as in: a brand new way to fail). Is there a pattern or a rule of thumb regarding which script passes the block, and do you perhaps know if the ruleset is something that comes with the proxy or has been created anew? djn david wrote: Well, my employer has 1600 staff members browsing the web with IE6, protected by a proxy that strips some (but not all) Javascript. -- David gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
If having valid stylesheets is important, one could simply apply zoom using javascript: object.style.zoom=1; But then your presentational layer is bound to the behavior layer :-( -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
I couldn't guess why presentational javascript is a bad thing, so I did a quick search and I found two articles that appear to address the issue: http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/articles/presentational_javascript/index.html http://www.digital-web.com/articles/separating_behavior_and_structure_2/ From the articles, it appears that the only disadvantages are: People who surf with Javascript disabled won't see the page as the designer intended; It may be difficult to modify the design of a page when the presentation is handled by both CSS and Javascript. These don't seem to be huge disadvantages: I can't think of a good reason to surf with Javascript disabled. Also, since the majority of sites use some Javascript, one should expect some problems if one disables it. The second problem concerns only developers. Good documentation and project management should mitigate it. ~C On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Thierry Koblentz n...@tjkdesign.com wrote: If having valid stylesheets is important, one could simply apply zoom using javascript: object.style.zoom=1; But then your presentational layer is bound to the behavior layer :-( -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
These don't seem to be huge disadvantages: I can't think of a good reason to surf with Javascript disabled. According to a recent blog post from Nicholas Zakas (Yahoo!) about 2% of users browse the web without JS. As a side note, I don't think it is always their choice. Also, since the majority of sites use some Javascript, one should expect some problems if one disables it. fwiw, I don't agree, if the page is built with progressive enhancement in mind, there should be no problem. The page may look less sexy, but there should be no problem per se. And the first step toward progressive enhancement is to respect the separation of the three layers. -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
The statistics provided by Nicholas Zakas are interesting! http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javascript-disabled/ About 1% of Yahoo's visitors had Javascript disabled (2% for Yahoo USA). So I guess the decision whether to use presentational Javascript or not depends on how much one is willing to work to cater to 1% of a site's visitors. It is a lot like deciding whether to support IE6 or not. ~Chetan On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Thierry Koblentz n...@tjkdesign.com wrote: These don't seem to be huge disadvantages: I can't think of a good reason to surf with Javascript disabled. According to a recent blog post from Nicholas Zakas (Yahoo!) about 2% of users browse the web without JS. As a side note, I don't think it is always their choice. Also, since the majority of sites use some Javascript, one should expect some problems if one disables it. fwiw, I don't agree, if the page is built with progressive enhancement in mind, there should be no problem. The page may look less sexy, but there should be no problem per se. And the first step toward progressive enhancement is to respect the separation of the three layers. -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
As one of those much maligned people who surf the web with js disabled, I can tell you that any number representing % of users surfing with js disallowed is suspect. I surf with js disabled, even though it can be a pain, to avoid loading the multiple js files that are used by many sites to do things I don't think they need to do, local newspaper site loads 23 different js files. That's on my office computer. When I can, I run my mobile devices with JavaScript turned off all the time. IF I encounter a problem, I may abandon the site or I may enable some js scripts to run if the site has something that I really want to access. As I land on the site I'd then be counted as non-js user, then after enabling js I would be counted as a js user. I'm not sure how allowing only some js scripts to run w/b counted. .Net sites are some the worst because, as a developer, you have to work around not using JavaScript for postbacks. Close runner ups are those sites that won't let me add to a shopping cart, or submit a form w/o JavaScript being enabled. But my real disdain I reserve for those sites that are completely illegible w/o js enabled. Those site designers haven't earned their fee and should apologize to every user. I don't think the question s/b Why do I turn off JavaScript? My question w/b Why do you need JavaScript?.I can only think of few times where use of js is justified. Not everywhere, all the time. Christie Mason __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
From: Chetan Crasta About 1% of Yahoo's visitors had Javascript disabled (2% for Yahoo USA) [-CM-] % of Yahoo visitors disabling js canNOT be used to extrapolate % of all web users disabling js. I haven't visited Yahoo in years and I'm sure that's true of a large % of web users. I also suspect that the type of visitor who would disable js is not the type of visitor that is attracted to Yahoo. Then there's information buried in the comments at http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javas cript-disabled/ that Yahoo redirects mobile users to a different page, so that also skews the results. Within my group of contacts, about 30% block JavaScript all the time, probably another 10%+ block js some of the time. You'd have to dig into what % of your target market is also Yahoo visitors and only if that is a large percentage should Yahoo visitors be used an indicator for % of your site's visitors will have js disabled. Web visitors are not homogeneous. But that's not all you should consider. Nothing on the web stays the same. All it will take is another widespread js security problem then % of visitors disabling js would increase. Or maybe another popular mobile device will ship with js disabled as default, or a browser with js disabled as a default, or who knows? Christie Mason __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
@Christie: It is true that Yahoo's stats cannot be extrapolated to the whole Internet. Unfortunately it appears that these are the only stats available. Javascript can considerably improve the aesthetics, usability and semantics of a site, so it would be a pity if one disables it just to avoid the odd bad apple. I never had to disable Javascript because good content is found on well-designed sites. The sites with the ugly Javascript are the ones that I wouldn't visit more than once, with or without Javascript. ~Chetan On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com wrote: From: Chetan Crasta About 1% of Yahoo's visitors had Javascript disabled (2% for Yahoo USA) [-CM-] % of Yahoo visitors disabling js canNOT be used to extrapolate % of all web users disabling js. I haven't visited Yahoo in years and I'm sure that's true of a large % of web users. I also suspect that the type of visitor who would disable js is not the type of visitor that is attracted to Yahoo. Then there's information buried in the comments at http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javas cript-disabled/ that Yahoo redirects mobile users to a different page, so that also skews the results. Within my group of contacts, about 30% block JavaScript all the time, probably another 10%+ block js some of the time. You'd have to dig into what % of your target market is also Yahoo visitors and only if that is a large percentage should Yahoo visitors be used an indicator for % of your site's visitors will have js disabled. Web visitors are not homogeneous. But that's not all you should consider. Nothing on the web stays the same. All it will take is another widespread js security problem then % of visitors disabling js would increase. Or maybe another popular mobile device will ship with js disabled as default, or a browser with js disabled as a default, or who knows? Christie Mason __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
Thierry Koblentz wrote: If having valid stylesheets is important, one could simply apply zoom using javascript: object.style.zoom=1; But then your presentational layer is bound to the behavior layer :-( And if someone has turned off JS off, or their company's proxy server purges incoming JS, they don't get the zoom fix at all. I'd vote for a CC that pulls in an IE-specific stylesheet containing just what needs to be fixed for IE. -- David gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
Chetan Crasta wrote: I couldn't guess why presentational javascript is a bad thing, so I did a quick search and I found two articles that appear to address the issue: http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/articles/presentational_javascript/index.html http://www.digital-web.com/articles/separating_behavior_and_structure_2/ From the articles, it appears that the only disadvantages are: People who surf with Javascript disabled won't see the page as the designer intended; It may be difficult to modify the design of a page when the presentation is handled by both CSS and Javascript. These don't seem to be huge disadvantages: I can't think of a good reason to surf with Javascript disabled. Yah. It's not like Javascript is used as part of malicious attacks, used to deliver attacks targeted at specific browsers/OSes. JS certainly couldn't ever do anything like turn your browser into a botnet member, or scan networks hidden behind firewalls and direct specific attacks at specific targets behind your firewall. And JS certainly can't be used to invade the privacy of site visitors. Wait, come to think of it: malicious Javascript can do ALL of the above. (As can malicious Java and Flash.) So I can't think of a good reason to surf with Javascript enabled. Also, since the majority of sites use some Javascript, one should expect some problems if one disables it. Good site design only uses JS *where it is necessary* for providing required functionality - such as a shopping cart. It provides a fallback (grace degradation) if JS is disabled or not entirely as functional as the designer expects in whatever browser the visitor is using. I particularly hate sites that make no attempt whatsoever to style their pages until I enable JS there. The second problem concerns only developers. Good documentation and project management should mitigate it. But do not make it any easier to deal with. On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Thierry Koblentz n...@tjkdesign.com wrote: If having valid stylesheets is important, one could simply apply zoom using javascript: object.style.zoom=1; But then your presentational layer is bound to the behavior layer :-( -- David gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
Chetan Crasta wrote: Javascript can considerably improve the aesthetics, Not for a site that's properly-designed in the first place. usability That is one point where JS can provide functionality. and semantics of a site, JS should have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SEMANTICS of a site. That should be in the HTML where it belongs, NOT IN JS. so it would be a pity if one disables it just to avoid the odd bad apple. There's a hell of a lot of bad apples out there - tons of malicious sites, scammers even cracking into supposedly-trustworthy services like akamai.net and planting attacks. So it's not the odd bad apple. I never had to disable Javascript because good content is found on well-designed sites. The sites with the ugly Javascript are the ones that I wouldn't visit more than once, with or without Javascript. I've been on a number of sites where I had to disable their CSS so I could read their content. Sadly, a number of those sites were the home pages of web design firms! ~Chetan On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com wrote: From: Chetan Crasta About 1% of Yahoo's visitors had Javascript disabled (2% for Yahoo USA) [-CM-] % of Yahoo visitors disabling js canNOT be used to extrapolate % of all web users disabling js. I haven't visited Yahoo in years and I'm sure that's true of a large % of web users. I also suspect that the type of visitor who would disable js is not the type of visitor that is attracted to Yahoo. Then there's information buried in the comments at http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javas cript-disabled/ that Yahoo redirects mobile users to a different page, so that also skews the results. Within my group of contacts, about 30% block JavaScript all the time, probably another 10%+ block js some of the time. You'd have to dig into what % of your target market is also Yahoo visitors and only if that is a large percentage should Yahoo visitors be used an indicator for % of your site's visitors will have js disabled. Web visitors are not homogeneous. But that's not all you should consider. Nothing on the web stays the same. All it will take is another widespread js security problem then % of visitors disabling js would increase. Or maybe another popular mobile device will ship with js disabled as default, or a browser with js disabled as a default, or who knows? Christie Mason -- David gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
@David: I think it is established, with reasonable accuracy, that a very small percentage (~1%) of surfers block Javascript. If somebody wants to make sure that their site looks absolutely perfect to the 12 people that surf using Internet Explorer 6 with a Javascript blocking proxy wearing tin-foil hats, that's their choice -- hats off to them. As for me, I believe my energy is better spent making my webpages work well for 99% of my sites visitors. ~Chetan On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 12:01 PM, david gn...@hawaii.rr.com wrote: Chetan Crasta wrote: Javascript can considerably improve the aesthetics, Not for a site that's properly-designed in the first place. usability That is one point where JS can provide functionality. and semantics of a site, JS should have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SEMANTICS of a site. That should be in the HTML where it belongs, NOT IN JS. so it would be a pity if one disables it just to avoid the odd bad apple. There's a hell of a lot of bad apples out there - tons of malicious sites, scammers even cracking into supposedly-trustworthy services like akamai.net and planting attacks. So it's not the odd bad apple. I never had to disable Javascript because good content is found on well-designed sites. The sites with the ugly Javascript are the ones that I wouldn't visit more than once, with or without Javascript. I've been on a number of sites where I had to disable their CSS so I could read their content. Sadly, a number of those sites were the home pages of web design firms! ~Chetan On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com wrote: From: Chetan Crasta About 1% of Yahoo's visitors had Javascript disabled (2% for Yahoo USA) [-CM-] % of Yahoo visitors disabling js canNOT be used to extrapolate % of all web users disabling js. I haven't visited Yahoo in years and I'm sure that's true of a large % of web users. I also suspect that the type of visitor who would disable js is not the type of visitor that is attracted to Yahoo. Then there's information buried in the comments at http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javas cript-disabled/ that Yahoo redirects mobile users to a different page, so that also skews the results. Within my group of contacts, about 30% block JavaScript all the time, probably another 10%+ block js some of the time. You'd have to dig into what % of your target market is also Yahoo visitors and only if that is a large percentage should Yahoo visitors be used an indicator for % of your site's visitors will have js disabled. Web visitors are not homogeneous. But that's not all you should consider. Nothing on the web stays the same. All it will take is another widespread js security problem then % of visitors disabling js would increase. Or maybe another popular mobile device will ship with js disabled as default, or a browser with js disabled as a default, or who knows? Christie Mason -- David gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
Well, my employer has 1600 staff members browsing the web with IE6, protected by a proxy that strips some (but not all) Javascript. Considerably more than 12 people. Upgrading from IE6 is forbidden because a couple of enterprise apps we use don't work in anything except IE6. But whatever. I disagree about reasonable accuracy, but whatever. 1-2% of Yahoo visitors block JS doesn't translate across to any other site. Chetan Crasta wrote: @David: I think it is established, with reasonable accuracy, that a very small percentage (~1%) of surfers block Javascript. If somebody wants to make sure that their site looks absolutely perfect to the 12 people that surf using Internet Explorer 6 with a Javascript blocking proxy wearing tin-foil hats, that's their choice -- hats off to them. As for me, I believe my energy is better spent making my webpages work well for 99% of my sites visitors. ~Chetan On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 12:01 PM, david gn...@hawaii.rr.com wrote: Chetan Crasta wrote: Javascript can considerably improve the aesthetics, Not for a site that's properly-designed in the first place. usability That is one point where JS can provide functionality. and semantics of a site, JS should have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SEMANTICS of a site. That should be in the HTML where it belongs, NOT IN JS. so it would be a pity if one disables it just to avoid the odd bad apple. There's a hell of a lot of bad apples out there - tons of malicious sites, scammers even cracking into supposedly-trustworthy services like akamai.net and planting attacks. So it's not the odd bad apple. I never had to disable Javascript because good content is found on well-designed sites. The sites with the ugly Javascript are the ones that I wouldn't visit more than once, with or without Javascript. I've been on a number of sites where I had to disable their CSS so I could read their content. Sadly, a number of those sites were the home pages of web design firms! ~Chetan On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com wrote: From: Chetan Crasta About 1% of Yahoo's visitors had Javascript disabled (2% for Yahoo USA) [-CM-] % of Yahoo visitors disabling js canNOT be used to extrapolate % of all web users disabling js. I haven't visited Yahoo in years and I'm sure that's true of a large % of web users. I also suspect that the type of visitor who would disable js is not the type of visitor that is attracted to Yahoo. Then there's information buried in the comments at http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javas cript-disabled/ that Yahoo redirects mobile users to a different page, so that also skews the results. Within my group of contacts, about 30% block JavaScript all the time, probably another 10%+ block js some of the time. You'd have to dig into what % of your target market is also Yahoo visitors and only if that is a large percentage should Yahoo visitors be used an indicator for % of your site's visitors will have js disabled. Web visitors are not homogeneous. But that's not all you should consider. Nothing on the web stays the same. All it will take is another widespread js security problem then % of visitors disabling js would increase. Or maybe another popular mobile device will ship with js disabled as default, or a browser with js disabled as a default, or who knows? Christie Mason -- David gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice
@David: Javascript can improve the semantic-correctness of a site. There are many CSS design patterns that use divs and spans as 'hooks' to apply CSS. These divs and spans don't serve any semantic purpose. Using Javascript to add these extra divs keeps the HTML clean and semantic. ~Chetan On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Chetan Crasta chetancra...@gmail.com wrote: @David: I think it is established, with reasonable accuracy, that a very small percentage (~1%) of surfers block Javascript. If somebody wants to make sure that their site looks absolutely perfect to the 12 people that surf using Internet Explorer 6 with a Javascript blocking proxy wearing tin-foil hats, that's their choice -- hats off to them. As for me, I believe my energy is better spent making my webpages work well for 99% of my sites visitors. ~Chetan On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 12:01 PM, david gn...@hawaii.rr.com wrote: Chetan Crasta wrote: Javascript can considerably improve the aesthetics, Not for a site that's properly-designed in the first place. usability That is one point where JS can provide functionality. and semantics of a site, JS should have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SEMANTICS of a site. That should be in the HTML where it belongs, NOT IN JS. so it would be a pity if one disables it just to avoid the odd bad apple. There's a hell of a lot of bad apples out there - tons of malicious sites, scammers even cracking into supposedly-trustworthy services like akamai.net and planting attacks. So it's not the odd bad apple. I never had to disable Javascript because good content is found on well-designed sites. The sites with the ugly Javascript are the ones that I wouldn't visit more than once, with or without Javascript. I've been on a number of sites where I had to disable their CSS so I could read their content. Sadly, a number of those sites were the home pages of web design firms! ~Chetan On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com wrote: From: Chetan Crasta About 1% of Yahoo's visitors had Javascript disabled (2% for Yahoo USA) [-CM-] % of Yahoo visitors disabling js canNOT be used to extrapolate % of all web users disabling js. I haven't visited Yahoo in years and I'm sure that's true of a large % of web users. I also suspect that the type of visitor who would disable js is not the type of visitor that is attracted to Yahoo. Then there's information buried in the comments at http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javas cript-disabled/ that Yahoo redirects mobile users to a different page, so that also skews the results. Within my group of contacts, about 30% block JavaScript all the time, probably another 10%+ block js some of the time. You'd have to dig into what % of your target market is also Yahoo visitors and only if that is a large percentage should Yahoo visitors be used an indicator for % of your site's visitors will have js disabled. Web visitors are not homogeneous. But that's not all you should consider. Nothing on the web stays the same. All it will take is another widespread js security problem then % of visitors disabling js would increase. Or maybe another popular mobile device will ship with js disabled as default, or a browser with js disabled as a default, or who knows? Christie Mason -- David gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
