Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Not convinced you are doing your client any favours
by using that : I have to zoom in by a factor of
four before the glyphs stop breaking up :-(

Seamonkey 2.0.11, Win/XP;SP3 @ 1152 x 864.

Philip Taylor

Rory Bernstein wrote:

Hi,

I am using a google-hosted embedded web font called Neuton:
http://code.google.com/webfonts/family?family=Neuton&subset=latin

Here is a coded page that uses it.



http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive

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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Rory Bernstein wrote:


Thanks for the screenshots, Phillip.


You're very welcome.


What I find most disturbing is that the other font (the sans
serif one) is not even showing up for you; it is rendering in
some other font. (I'm talking about the grey, all caps items in
the nav bar). How disturbing. That is a font squirrel font
called tilillium. Do you know why it is not showing up for you?
I see you are using the seamonkey browser (which I had never
heard of).


I don't, but when I have time I will research "font embedding"
and "Seamonkey" for you.  Seamonkey is pretty mainstream : it
is derived from the same codebase as Firefox (that is,
it uses Gecko as the embedded processor) but contains an
integrated e-mail client (thus eliminating the need for
Thunderbird).  It is very much a modern-day replacement
for the much-loved but now defunct "Netscape Suite" and
I use it for all my browsing, never needing to fall back
on Firefox or (spits discreetly) Internet Explorer.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[David Laakso]

On 12/30/10 3:45 PM, Rory Bernstein wrote:

http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive

Rory







Comment this out in the source file and shoot the designer :-) .
http://fonts.googleapis.com/css?family=Neuton 
http://fonts.googleapis.com/css?family=Neuton>' 
rel='stylesheet' type='text/css'/>



~d

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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Rory Bernstein]

I am grateful for all the activity about my question (@font-face). I am too 
sick today to really take it all in; but I wanted to quickly respond. I will 
get back to you early next week.
Happy New Year everyone!
Rory
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Chetan Crasta]

> http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive
>
> My issue is that the font weight is heavier in the browser than it looked in 
> our photoshop comp. Is there any way, using CSS, to get the font weight to 
> look lighter (less bold)? Or do I just explain to the designer that the way 
> text looks in photoshop is different from how it looks in a browser?

Are you using the Mac Photoshop? If so, the issue might be because of
Apple's approach to sub-pixel font smoothing -- see:
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/06/font-rendering-respecting-the-pixel-grid.html
.
I don't know how Photoshop renders fonts in Windows, I use GIMP on Linux.

Btw, I think Neuton looks great. The issues described by Phillip are
due to Windows' horrible rendering of @font-face embedded fonts.
Windows XP, Vista and 7 do not correctly apply font smoothing to
embedded fonts. The issue affects all browsers on the windows
platform. Linux does not have this issue.
One possible work around for this is to apply the proprietary Alpha
image loader filter to elements that contain embedded fonts. However,
this inconsistently works and it is only for IE. I don't think it is
worth the effort. See:
http://allcreatives.net/2009/12/05/smoother-font-face-embedding-in-ie-7-8/

So for now, it looks like one has to just accept the fact that
embedded fonts wont look good in Windows

~Chetan
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Chetan Crasta wrote:


The issues described by Phillip are
due to Windows' horrible rendering of @font-face embedded fonts.
Windows XP, Vista and 7 do not correctly apply font smoothing to
embedded fonts. The issue affects all browsers on the windows
platform.


Do you have a citation for this, Chetan ?  I'd be interested
to read more concerning this artifact of Windows.

** Phil.
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Jan 2, 2011, at 6:04 PM, Chetan Crasta wrote:

> Phillip are
> due to Windows' horrible rendering of @font-face embedded fonts.
> Windows XP, Vista and 7 do not correctly apply font smoothing to
> embedded fonts. The issue affects all browsers on the windows
> platform.


I don't think this is true at all for all fonts and all browsers (otherwise 
Typekit and similar sites would be out of business before the end of the 
day...). Depending on the fonts and the user setting on XP in particular - 
clear type on/off, etc, fonts _can_ look poop on that OS and sometimes on Win 7 
/ Vista. Much depends on the hinting of the fonts. In general, the fonts I've 
used did/do look pretty good on all Windows OS

The Typekit blog has had some pretty decent articles on the subject, such as 
this one:
http://blog.typekit.com/2010/12/17/type-rendering-review-and-fonts-that-render-well/

But I've heard indeed that the Google hosted fonts look poor on Windows XP 
(they do look fine on OS X, Linux Ubuntu and Windows 7).


Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://l-c-n.com/





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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:

> In general, the fonts I've used did/do look pretty good on all Windows OS

Do have you have some sample pages that I can compare
with the Newton offering, Philippe ?

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Chetan Crasta]

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)
 wrote:

>Do you have a citation for this, Chetan ?  I'd be interested
to read more concerning this artifact of Windows.
>

Apart from the link given earlier [1], I found two more articles that
describe the issue:
http://www.thebrightlines.com/2010/01/24/test-popular-professional-fonts-as-webfont/
http://www.thebrightlines.com/2010/03/18/font-rendering-in-ie9/

[1] http://allcreatives.net/2009/12/05/smoother-font-face-embedding-in-ie-7-8/


@ Philippe Wittenbergh : I doubt that the issue has to do with the
'quality' of the fonts. The professional fonts tested by
Thebrightlines.com also show the same problems with web embedding on
Windows.

Every font that I have embedded looked better in Linux.

I have take four screenshots of two websites to illustrate the
problem: http://roughtech.com/t/rendering.html

Regards,
~Chetan
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Jan 2, 2011, at 11:24 PM, Chetan Crasta wrote:

> Every font that I have embedded looked better in Linux.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Windows (and XP especially) and Linux, or 
OS X. What you have to compare is font-rendering on the same platform for 
embedded vs native (installed) fonts.

Font-rendering on XP always looks poop in my book. And just for fun, try 
viewing some Japanese pages on XP. I get headaches just to think about it (the 
default Jpn fonts on XP are actually bitmaps, so 1985, and only look good a t 
24px or bigger).

> I have take four screenshots of two websites to illustrate the
> problem: http://roughtech.com/t/rendering.html

The font used by David Laakso looks pretty decent on XP (it did so on my side 
when we were working on that site), the other one is indeed a real deal breaker 
- that confirms what I heard about those Google hosted fonts.

Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://l-c-n.com/





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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Chetan Crasta]

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 8:23 PM, Philippe Wittenbergh  wrote:

> You're comparing apples and oranges. Windows (and XP especially) and Linux, 
> or OS X. What you have to compare is font-rendering on the same platform for 
> embedded vs native (installed) fonts.

Few web designers have issues with Windows' font rendering of local
fonts. It is only with embedded fonts that problems arise.

> The font used by David Laakso looks pretty decent on XP (it did so on my side 
> when we were working on that site), the other one is indeed a real deal 
> breaker - that confirms what I heard about those Google hosted fonts.

Sure, on Windows, some embedded fonts render better than others.
However, the problems are not due to poor quality of the fonts, but
with the way Windows and IE handle them. That is probably why the
issues don't occur in IE9 and FF beta 4 (according to
http://www.thebrightlines.com/2010/03/18/font-rendering-in-ie9/ ).

~Chetan
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[David Laakso]

On 12/30/10 3:45 PM, Rory Bernstein wrote:

Hi,

I am using a google-hosted embedded web font called Neuton:
http://code.google.com/webfonts/family?family=Neuton&subset=latin

Here is a coded page that uses it. See left column (nav menu), the top-category 
text (the serif text, not the san serif), that is bigger. The text that reads: 
recent, design, design for real estate, contact. That is the neuton text.

http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive

My issue is that the font weight is heavier in the browser than it looked in 
our photoshop comp. Is there any way, using CSS, to get the font weight to look 
lighter (less bold)? Or do I just explain to the designer that the way text 
looks in photoshop is different from how it looks in a browser?

Thanks! And Happy New Year,
Rory





Ditch Neuton.
Go to Font Squirrel.

Download Calluna and install it.
Go back to Font Squirrel and use their fontface generator [expert setting].

Leave the font-weight as normal.
Changing it does not sit well cross browser.
Does this meet the "designers" approval?

Best,
~d

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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Chetan Crasta]

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 8:59 PM, David Laakso
 wrote:

> Ditch Neuton.
> Go to Font Squirrel.
> 
> Download Calluna and install it.
> Go back to Font Squirrel and use their fontface generator [expert setting].

As David suggested, the Rory's only option is to choose a font that
renders better in Windows.

Just to clarify the situation a bit, Windows' embedded font rendering
problems is not restricted to Windows XP and IE8. I have added
screenshots of FF3.6 on Windows 7. The problems are exactly the same.
Note that in Windows 7 and IE8 Clear Type is the default. This setting
wasn't changed. See: http://roughtech.com/t/rendering.html


~Chetan
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[David Laakso]

On 1/2/11 10:51 AM, Chetan Crasta wrote:

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 8:59 PM, David Laakso
  wrote:


Ditch Neuton.
Go to Font Squirrel.

Download Calluna and install it.
Go back to Font Squirrel and use their fontface generator [expert setting].

As David suggested, the Rory's only option is to choose a font that
renders better in Windows.
~Chetan





Or spring for 22 bucks and buy Calluna Light?

Either way, the fallback is serif [not sans as he has with Neuton].
Best,
~d


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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Rory Bernstein]

> On 12/30/10 3:45 PM, Rory Bernstein wrote:
>> 
>> I am using a google-hosted embedded web font called Neuton:
>> http://code.google.com/webfonts/family?family=Neuton&subset=latin

>> My web page that uses it:
>> http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive


David Laakso wrote:
> Ditch Neuton.
> Go to Font Squirrel.
> 
> Download Calluna and install it.
> Go back to Font Squirrel and use their fontface generator [expert setting].
> 
> Leave the font-weight as normal.
> Changing it does not sit well cross browser.
> Does this meet the "designers" approval?


I wanted to get back to my question about the embedded fonts now that I've 
gotten over my virus. I like David Laakso's suggestion to substitute the font 
squirrel "Calluna" font for the google hosted Neuton font. I am going to run 
that by the designer; that will be fine for that font I suspect.

The other font used on the URL I gave above is a font squirrel font, Titillium. 
Philip Taylor's seamonkey browser is not rendering it at all, falling back on a 
local font. I am very very concerned about this. I had followed instructions on 
Nettuts about maximizing the cross-browser rendering of the font squirrel fonts:

http://blog.themeforest.net/tutorials/how-to-achieve-cross-browser-font-face-support/

and I was expecting better results. Can I get some feedback from the list about 
whether people are seeing the san-serif font in the nav (left column), 
Titillium or not? If it is not working on many browsers, then I have some big 
problems!

http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive

Thanks, Rory
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[bill scheider]

On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Rory Bernstein wrote:

> > On 12/30/10 3:45 PM, Rory Bernstein wrote:
> >>
> >> I am using a google-hosted embedded web font called Neuton:
> >> http://code.google.com/webfonts/family?family=Neuton&subset=latin
>
> >> My web page that uses it:
> >> http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive
>
> and I was expecting better results. Can I get some feedback from the list
> about whether people are seeing the san-serif font in the nav (left column),
> Titillium or not? If it is not working on many browsers, then I have some
> big problems!
>
> http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive
>
> Hi Rory,
> What I'm seeing in your left nav is Neuton. Checking the element in
> Firebug, it shows that that is the font being called (the stack, on line 130
> of all.css for #nav is 24px/26px 'Neuton',Arial,sans-serif) In FF on win7
> that's what I see.
> HTH,
> Bill
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Rory Bernstein]

> On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Rory Bernstein  wrote:
> 
> >> My web page that uses it:
> >> http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive
> 
> and I was expecting better results. Can I get some feedback from the list 
> about whether people are seeing the san-serif font in the nav (left column), 
> Titillium or not? If it is not working on many browsers, then I have some big 
> problems!
> 
> http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive
> 

On Jan 3, 2011, at 12:57 PM, bill scheider wrote:

>  Hi Rory,
> What I'm seeing in your left nav is Neuton. Checking the element in Firebug, 
> it shows that that is the font being called (the stack, on line 130 of 
> all.css for #nav is 24px/26px 'Neuton',Arial,sans-serif) In FF on win7 that's 
> what I see.
> HTH,
> Bill

What about the text that says "visual diary archive" at bottom of left col? And 
the footer (below the main content box)? Are you getting the titillium there? 
Those cannot be Neuton; I want to make sure they *are* titillium. 
Thanks!
Rory





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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[bill scheider]

On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Rory Bernstein wrote:

> > On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Rory Bernstein 
> wrote:
> >
> > >> My web page that uses it:
> > >> http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive
> >
> > and I was expecting better results. Can I get some feedback from the list
> about whether people are seeing the san-serif font in the nav (left column),
> Titillium or not? If it is not working on many browsers, then I have some
> big problems!
> >
> > http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive
> >
>
> On Jan 3, 2011, at 12:57 PM, bill scheider wrote:
>
> >  Hi Rory,
> > What I'm seeing in your left nav is Neuton. Checking the element in
> Firebug, it shows that that is the font being called (the stack, on line 130
> of all.css for #nav is 24px/26px 'Neuton',Arial,sans-serif) In FF on win7
> that's what I see.
> > HTH,
> > Bill
>
> What about the text that says "visual diary archive" at bottom of left col?
> And the footer (below the main content box)? Are you getting the titillium
> there? Those cannot be Neuton; I want to make sure they *are* titillium.
> Thanks!
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>
Yes, titillium in those two instances. Wouldn't expect it to be different
but checked in Safari (win), Chrome, Opera, IE 7,8 and it's present in all.
Bill

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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[smallvoiceshouting]

Yes, titillium in those two instances. Wouldn't expect it to be different  
but checked in Safari (win), Chrome, Opera, IE 7,8 and it's present in  
all.

Bill
--


Hi,
I downloaded and installed Seamonkey 2.02 (Windows). Why not? :)

Looks like Arial being displayed in those same two instances. I'm not sure  
how much of your site audience would be using Seamonkey. Stats might tell  
you? At any rate, Arial is displaying at the same size, in the same area as  
the titilium. Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about it. But I'm not  
your client :)

HTH,
Bill
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

smallvoiceshout...@gmail.com wrote:

Yes, titillium in those two instances. Wouldn't expect it to be
different but checked in Safari (win), Chrome, Opera, IE 7,8 and it's
present in all.
Bill
--


Hi,
I downloaded and installed Seamonkey 2.02 (Windows). Why not? :)


One reason would be because the release version is 2.0.11 !
Where did you find an archived 2.0.2 ?

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[smallvoiceshouting]

One reason would be because the release version is 2.0.11 !



Where did you find an archived 2.0.2 ?



Philip Taylor


Of course you're correct, Philip. Maybe Rory's font would render if it  
*were* v2.02 :) Thanks for the correction.

Bill
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[David Laakso]

  Can I get some feedback from the list about whether people are seeing the 
san-serif font in the nav (left column), Titillium or not? If it is not working 
on many browsers, then I have some big problems!

http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive

Thanks, Rory




Titillum 
your page  :

Pass: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; 
rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101203 Firefox/3.6.13

Fail: Opera, Version 11.00, Build 1156, Platform Mac OS X, System 10.4.11
Fail: Seamonkey/2.0.11 Platform Mac OS X, System 10.4.11
Fail: Safari/4.13 Platform Mac OS X, System 10.4.11
Fail: WebKit/current nightly Platform Mac OS X, System 10.4.11
Fail: Camino/Version 2.0.6 [given: @fontface not supprted]
Fail: IE 6/7/8 XP on Parallels IETester

Best,
~d

1/ Find  and delete Titillum on your system.
2/ Find  and delete Titillum from your hd.
3/ Go to font squirrel and download and instal Titillum to your system
4/ Go back to font squirrel> fontface generator [expert]
5/ Put Titillum on your hd
6/ Boot
7/ Delete old Titillum files from server
9/ Upload new Titillum files from server
10/ Reload browser


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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Chetan Crasta]

On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Rory Bernstein  wrote:


> Can I get some feedback from the list about whether people are seeing the 
> san-serif font in the nav (left column), Titillium or not? If it is not 
> working on many browsers, then I have some big problems!
>
> http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive

Tittlum is visible in Firefox because it uses the WOFF file. Other
browsers look for the OTF file and don't find it:
http://lettershop.ehclients.com/fonts/TitilliumText22L006-webfont.otf

Upload the otf file to your server and everything will be OK.

~Chetan
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Rory Bernstein]

On Jan 3, 2011, at 2:38 PM, Chetan Crasta wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Rory Bernstein  
> wrote:
> 
>> Can I get some feedback from the list about whether people are seeing the 
>> san-serif font in the nav (left column), Titillium or not? If it is not 
>> working on many browsers, then I have some big problems!
>> 
>> http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive
> 
> Tittlum is visible in Firefox because it uses the WOFF file. Other
> browsers look for the OTF file and don't find it:
> http://lettershop.ehclients.com/fonts/TitilliumText22L006-webfont.otf
> 
> Upload the otf file to your server and everything will be OK.
> 
> ~Chetan
> 


Ah. I see the light. OK, I just uploaded the OTF files. Can I now assume that 
this font will show for most users?
Thank you so much for this help,
Rory
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[smallvoiceshouting]

Ah. I see the light. OK, I just uploaded the OTF files. Can I now assume  
that this font will show for most users?



Thank you so much for this help,



Rory



Now good in Seamonkey.
Bill
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Rory Bernstein wrote:


Ah. I see the light. OK, I just uploaded the OTF files. Can I now assume that 
this font will show for most users?
Thank you so much for this help,
Rory


Trailer looks really horrible in Seamonkey 2.0.11 under
Windows/XP;SP3 at 1152 x 864, and "3" in page numbers
looks significantly smaller than "1", "2", "4" and "17";
see :


http://picasaweb.google.com/Chaa006/ScreenCaptures?authkey=Gv1sRgCPLV3Kvwm6zA5QE#5558057498710109474

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[David Laakso]

On 1/3/11 5:07 PM, Rory Bernstein wrote:

http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive


The Titillium is showing in all the above browsers now on reload, probably 
because you have uploaded missing files since I last wrote...
~d

Thanks, David. Is there nothing I can do to get this working in Camino? Or is 
@font-face just not an option for Camino currently?
Your help was so appreciated on this issue.
Rory



Camino is completely volunteer supported; and, consequently, lags behind 
a bit sometimes... Worry not. She'll catch up. I am quite fond of 
Camino. It is my default browser.


Best,
~d

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http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/

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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/01/03 17:26 (GMT-0500) David Laakso composed:


Rory Bernstein wrote:



 Is there nothing I can do to get this working in Camino? Or is @font-face just 
not an option for Camino currently?



 Your help was so appreciated on this issue.



Camino is completely volunteer supported; and, consequently, lags behind
a bit sometimes... Worry not. She'll catch up. I am quite fond of
Camino. It is my default browser.


I asked about "lags behind" in Moznet's #camino late last year. Camino won't 
truly be catching up in the foreseeable future. The version David's using is 
equivalent to something unique between Firefox 3.0.19 (Gecko 1.9.0.x) and 
Firefox 3.5.16 (Gecko 1.9.1.x), while FF 4 impending will be Gecko 2.0, and 
FF 3.6.13 is Gecko 1.9.2.13. The next slated Camino release is 2.1 @ Gecko 
1.9.2.x, which shouldn't have the latest CSS3 improvements provided in FF 4.

--
"How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose
understanding rather than silver." Proverbs 16:16 NKJV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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