[CTRL] my modest proposal

[William A. Bacon]

-Caveat Lector-

What is my modest proposal? Why quite simply - Freedom of choice! Most if
not all self appointed militant environmentalists believe in choice when
it comes to abortion - so why not freedom of choice when it comes to
overall life styles? Why can't these self appointed militant
environmentalist stop using Governmental coercion (Which clearly violates
people's 13th amendment civil rights) and voluntarily live the
environmentally friendly life?   They could migrate to rural areas, start
living in caves, build windmills for electricity, use biomass for fuel for
heat, solar powered autos, even hamster powered automobiles,
etcetc..
The self appointed environmental militants would then stop all
opposition to new energy and resource projects which would enable people
like me to live the industrial/technological life style; like developing
the giant oil fields in Alaska, off shore drilling everywhere, Oil shale
development, additional coal development, frozen methane development,
increased refinery capacity, additional nuclear power plants, increased
efforts to develop fusion power, and lets not forget the fantastic oil
sands resource in Canada.

People would be free to choose which life style to pursue. I am
good with this modest proposal Are the self appointed militant
environmentalists good with this? If not why not?




Remember:More people have died in Ted Kennedy's car than have died in
United States Commercial Nuclear Power plant operations
 visit my web site at
http://www.info-quest.org
Visit my energy page at  http://www.info-quest.org/Energy.html
Check out the latest on the anwr drilling project http://www.anwr.org
visit my blog at
http://info-spectrum.blogspot.com
 My ICQ# is 79071904
See the Pledge of alleginace to the flag that the 9th circuit court of
appeals doesn't want you to say.
for a precise list of the powers of the Federal Government linkto:
http://www.info-quest.org/Enumerated.html

www.ctrl.org
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Om

[CTRL] My modest proposal

[William Bacon]

-Caveat Lector-

What is my modest proposal? Why quite simply - Freedom of choice! Most if
not all self appointed militant environmentalists believe in choice when
it comes to abortion - so why not freedom of choice when it comes to
overall life styles? Why can't these self appointed militant
environmentalist stop using Governmental coercion (Which clearly violates
people's 13th amendment civil rights) and voluntarily live the
environmentally friendly life?   They could migrate to rural areas, start
living in caves, build windmills for electricity, use biomass for fuel for
heat, solar powered autos, even hamster powered automobiles,
etcetc..
The self appointed environmental militants would then stop all
opposition to new energy and resource projects which would enable people
like me to live the industrial/technological life style; like developing
the giant oil fields in Alaska, off shore drilling everywhere, Oil shale
development, additional coal development, frozen methane development,
increased refinery capacity, additional nuclear power plants, increased
efforts to develop fusion power, and lets not forget the fantastic oil
sands resource in Canada.

People would be free to choose which life style to pursue. I am
good with this modest proposal Are the self appointed militant
environmentalists good with this? If not why not?






I pledge Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to
the REPUBLIC for which it stands,  one Nation under God,indivisible,with
liberty and justice for all.

Remember:More people have died in Ted Kennedy's car than have died in
United States Commercial Nuclear Power plant operations

 visit my web site at
http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon My ICQ# is 79071904
for a precise list of the powers of the Federal Government linkto:
http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon/Enumerated.html

www.ctrl.org
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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[MIKE SPITZER]

-Caveat Lector-

- Original Message -
From: Steve Wingate [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal


-Caveat Lector-

I am leaving for a hiking trip in the Grand Canyon. Fortunately it is still
protected from oil drilling and mining operations.  :)

Steve

Good luck, my friend!

God speed,

Mike


=
Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh, YHVH, TZEVAOT

  FROM THE DESK OF:

   *Michael Spitzer*[EMAIL PROTECTED]

   The Best Way To Destroy Enemies Is To Change Them To Friends
=







On 11 May 01, at 15:16, William Bacon wrote:

 Hello! Well it's been almost 3 days since I posted my ami an extremist?
 and no response from Steve Wingate. What's the matter? Your buzzword
 generator not working?
 Well anyway, you might ask what is your modest proposal? Well my modest
 proposal involves what these watermelon environmental groups can do to
 promote their weird notions of environmental wackoism in a constitutional
 manner!
 Why don't these groups voluntaraliy move to some pristine wilderness area
 and use all of their proposals and develop a demonstration community that
 is environmentally friendly? And if living in caves, herding sheep and
 eating raw vegtables is appealling to other people, then people are
 perfectly free to join them. And of course I would stipulate that these
 wackos would of course leave people like me alone who favors suburban
 sprawl, nuclear power, all of the pro production proposals I made in my
 energy independence artilce alone, and we all would live happilly ever
 after? Anything wrong with this? An inquiring mind would like to know!
 Bill Bacon



ANOMALOUS IMAGES AND UFO FILES
http://www.anomalous-images.com

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Om

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Om

[CTRL] My modest proposal question #1

[William Bacon]

-Caveat Lector-

Hello!
Anybody out there willing to volunteer for my modest proposal???

visit my web site at  http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon
My ICQ# is 79071904
for a precise list of the powers of the Federal Government linkto:
http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon/Enumerated.html

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal #3

[Tenorlove]

-Caveat Lector-

Good idea, Bill, then me and my light-burning, 4WD  motorcycle
driving, cigarette smoking, beer drinking, deer hunting, meat-eating,
charcoal-grilling, trash-burning, tire-dumping-in-the-woods,
drag-racing-on-the-street, gun nut, peeing-in-the-river buddies here in
New Jersey will have more space to spread out and have our fun!

Tenorlove


--- William Bacon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 -Caveat Lector-

 Hello!
 Here is my current suggestion for Watermelon Environmental Group
 Members
 (WEGers) inthe Mid-atlantic area to congregate!

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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[CTRL] A modest proposal #3

[William Bacon]

-Caveat Lector-

Hello!
Here is my current suggestion for Watermelon Environmental Group Members
(WEGers) inthe Mid-atlantic area to congregate! Since this area is heavily
populated (NY, NJ and PA) I recomend the WEGrs move in close to University
towns Like State College PA. State college PA in the geographical center
of Pennsylvania is home to one of the three major campuses of the State
University/state related Higher education system.
 State college is located in a rural area just right for WEGers.The
intellectual climate of course is perfect; standard far left wing
propaganda enforced by the students (mind numbed robots filled with the
propaganda of the government controlled education system). These mind
numbed robots are at the ready to stamp out immediately any hate speech
(that is any speech to the right of lennin, Marx or Mao-tse tung) that
might emerge. My warnings about the climate of the state of vermont apply
to Central Pennsylvania, It gets very cold here in the winter. I had a
suggestion from one of my readers! You WEGers can burn animal (and I
presume human) droppings in an effort to keep warm yes the tree hugging
brigade is active here too same suggestion as in vermont! If you burn
animal and human droppings to keep warm, You better be sure to scrub the
smoke for air pollution and scrub it for co2 emmissions! Don't worry about
coverage from the left wing highly biased news media, they  will seek you
out and  give you as much free publicity as you can possibly imagine!And I
suppose your normal urge to issue decrees against the rest of will never
go away!

visit my web site at  http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon
My ICQ# is 79071904
for a precise list of the powers of the Federal Government linkto:
http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon/Enumerated.html

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[Prudence L. Kuhn]

-Caveat Lector-

Sounds like a great idea.  Can you provide location of one of these pristine areas?  
Prudy

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[Nessie]

-Caveat Lector-

Can you provide location of one of these pristine areas?  


Alas.

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Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[Amelia]

-Caveat Lector-

{{Well, seems to me that if the wacko environ extremists were
serious, this would be their ideal.  But then, of course, they only
want to control what OTHERS do while picking and choosing for
themselves only those measures that suit their own agenda.  So when
enough of them demonstrate their sincerity in the following manner,
I will start to pay more attention.  Meanwhile, those do-good
non-profit orgs are some of the most corrupt and manipulative forms
of corporate greed in existence.  So the UN and NWO now called
Globalists goal is to eliminate 70 percent of the population and
they are behind schedule.  Come on, help them out!  Se below for how
you can do this.
~Amelia~}



The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement


May we live long and die out




Phasing out the human race by voluntarily ceasing to breed will
allow Earth's biosphere to return to good health. Crowded conditions
and resource shortages will improve as we become less dense.



Deutsch | English | Francais | Italiano | Portugues
Translations Welcome



ABOUT THE MOVEMENT

What is the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement?
Are you really serious?
How do I join?
What's new?
Do some people misunderstand the VHEMT concept?

BIOLOGY AND BREEDING

What's wrong with having babies? Don't you like babies?
If we only produce two children, doesn't that just replace
ourselves?
Aren't the wrong people making babies these days?
I'm extra smart. Shouldn't I pass on my genes?
What about the human instinct to breed?
Do we have to stop having sex?
Does VHEMT favor abortion?
Will contraception lower birth rates?

DEATH

Will new viruses, wars, famine, and toxic waste help the cause of
human extinction?
Are we all supposed to kill ourselves?
Won't VHEMT die out when all its members die off?

ECOLOGY

Is parenthood bad for Earth's ecology?
What's the big deal about animals going extinct?
Are humans the most important species on Earth?
How do I gauge the depth of my ecology?
Don't humans have a place in Nature?
Isn't over-population just a human distribution problem?

ECONOMICS

Does a growing economy require a growing population?
Who will pay our social security when we're old?
Is conservation the answer to resource depletion?
Isn't over-population worse in poor countries?
Is unequal distribution of wealth the cause of hunger rather than
over-population?
Is capitalism the main cause of environmental destruction?

POLITICS

Didn't Hitler have the same ideas?
Does VHEMT support China's one-child policy?
Should human migration be controlled to help Earth's ecosystems?
Will Urban Growth Boundaries stop suburban sprawl?
What about our right to breed?

PHILOSOPHY and RELIGION

Is there a typical path of progression to a VHEMT awareness?
Will human extinction solve all of Earth's problems?
If there were a magic button for extinction, would you press it?
What will the world be like when population starts getting smaller?
What will Earth be like without humans?
Is voluntary human extinction possible?
Isn't over population just a symptom of the problem rather than the
cause?
Are religions to blame for human over population?
Earth's sun will burn out in a few billion years anyway, so what
difference does it make?

SCIENCE FICTION and FANTASY

Without us, who would protect Earth from extraterrestrial threats
like comets and asteroids?
Why not clone extinct species from their DNA codes?
Why not move excess human population to colonies on other planets?
If we spread life to other planets, wouldn't there be more chance
for it to survive?

LINKS







© 1996 - 2001 Les U. Knight. Non-profit reproductions permitted with
citation.

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[CTRL] A modest proposal

[Amelia]

-Caveat Lector-

William, don't be silly!  Because June SAID so!  Like the Allatolah,
Allatolah June is at liberty to call names and demand censorship at
will.  Just remember that some people are so base and crass that it
is desirable to be called a name by them as it separates your
ideology from theirs, a MOST desirable thing in this instance.
Usually, however her name-calling is accompanied by the accusation
that the person she is currently calling names is also, in fact,
Aleisha. No matter who, what, when or where, ALWAYS Aleisha.
Sometimes it is accompanied by 'proof' such as the fact that she
THINKS so. This is totally 'normal' for her.  Happens all the time.

You are dealing with a person of such limited capacity that
name-calling seems a normal behavior to her. Things like civility
and manners are totally unknown or at least unpracticed.  Just
consider the source and rejoice.  It means you are not like her.
~Amelia~

- Original Message -
From: William Bacon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal (fwd)


-Caveat Lector-

YnrChldzWyld,
Why?

visit my web site at  http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon
My ICQ# is 79071904
for a precise list of the powers of the Federal Government linkto:
http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon/Enumerated.html

On Sat, 12 May 2001, YnrChyldzWyld wrote:

 -Caveat Lector-

 On Sat, 12 May 2001, William Bacon wrote:
 Now that Mr. Shannon has called me the standard names, has
anybody an
 opinion on my modest proposal?

 Yes, I do.

 You're an idiot.


 June

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[Nessie]

-Caveat Lector-

I am leaving for a hiking trip in the Grand Canyon.

 

Do us a favor. While you’re there, check these out, OK?



http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/text/grnd.html

http://www.sightings.com/earthchanges/grandcanyon_e.htm

http://www.keelynet.com/unclass/canyon.txt


Thanks in advance.

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal (fwd)

[YnrChyldzWyld]

-Caveat Lector-

On Sat, 12 May 2001, William Bacon wrote:
Now that Mr. Shannon has called me the standard names, has anybody an
opinion on my modest proposal?

Yes, I do.

You're an idiot.


June

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal (fwd)

[William Bacon]

-Caveat Lector-

YnrChldzWyld,
Why?

visit my web site at  http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon
My ICQ# is 79071904
for a precise list of the powers of the Federal Government linkto:
http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon/Enumerated.html

On Sat, 12 May 2001, YnrChyldzWyld wrote:

 -Caveat Lector-

 On Sat, 12 May 2001, William Bacon wrote:
 Now that Mr. Shannon has called me the standard names, has anybody an
 opinion on my modest proposal?

 Yes, I do.

 You're an idiot.


 June

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[MIKE SPITZER]

-Caveat Lector-

- Original Message -
From: Steve Wingate [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal


-Caveat Lector-

I am leaving for a hiking trip in the Grand Canyon. Fortunately it is still
protected from oil drilling and mining operations.  :)

Steve

Good luck, my friend!

God speed,

Mike


=
Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh, YHVH, TZEVAOT

  FROM THE DESK OF:

   *Michael Spitzer*[EMAIL PROTECTED]

   The Best Way To Destroy Enemies Is To Change Them To Friends
=







On 11 May 01, at 15:16, William Bacon wrote:

 Hello! Well it's been almost 3 days since I posted my ami an extremist?
 and no response from Steve Wingate. What's the matter? Your buzzword
 generator not working?
 Well anyway, you might ask what is your modest proposal? Well my modest
 proposal involves what these watermelon environmental groups can do to
 promote their weird notions of environmental wackoism in a constitutional
 manner!
 Why don't these groups voluntaraliy move to some pristine wilderness area
 and use all of their proposals and develop a demonstration community that
 is environmentally friendly? And if living in caves, herding sheep and
 eating raw vegtables is appealling to other people, then people are
 perfectly free to join them. And of course I would stipulate that these
 wackos would of course leave people like me alone who favors suburban
 sprawl, nuclear power, all of the pro production proposals I made in my
 energy independence artilce alone, and we all would live happilly ever
 after? Anything wrong with this? An inquiring mind would like to know!
 Bill Bacon



ANOMALOUS IMAGES AND UFO FILES
http://www.anomalous-images.com

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal (fwd)

[YnrChyldzWyld]

-Caveat Lector-

On Sat, 12 May 2001, William Bacon wrote:
Why doesn't Steve Wingate Stay in the grand canyon and leave everybody
else alone?

Why don't YOU stay in your nuclear/toxic waste dump and do the same?


June

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[Tenorlove]

-Caveat Lector-

Mr. Shannon,

I think Mr. Bacon is telling them to practice what they preach. Nothing
tripy or twaddly about that.

Tenorlove

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[Tenorlove]

-Caveat Lector-

 From: Steve Wingate [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 I am leaving for a hiking trip in the Grand Canyon. Fortunately it is
 still
 protected from oil drilling and mining operations.  :)

You sure about that? An old acquaintance once told me that the Grand
Canyon was so deep that when they threw their beer cans in, they didn't
hear them hit bottom. ;-D

Tenorlove
busting Steve's chops

__
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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[CTRL] A modest proposal

[William Bacon]

-Caveat Lector-

Hello! Well it's been almost 3 days since I posted my ami an extremist?
and no response from Steve Wingate. What's the matter? Your buzzword
generator not working?
Well anyway, you might ask what is your modest proposal? Well my modest
proposal involves what these watermelon environmental groups can do to
promote their weird notions of environmental wackoism in a constitutional
manner!
Why don't these groups voluntaraliy move to some pristine wilderness area
and use all of their proposals and develop a demonstration community that
is environmentally friendly? And if living in caves, herding sheep and
eating raw vegtables is appealling to other people, then people are
perfectly free to join them. And of course I would stipulate that these
wackos would of course leave people like me alone who favors suburban
sprawl, nuclear power, all of the pro production proposals I made in my
energy independence artilce alone, and we all would live happilly ever
after? Anything wrong with this? An inquiring mind would like to know!
Bill Bacon

visit my web site at  http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon
My ICQ# is 79071904
for a precise list of the powers of the Federal Government linkto:
http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon/Enumerated.html

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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[William Shannon]

In a message dated 5/11/01 2:16:55 PM Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Well anyway, you might ask what is your modest proposal? Well my modest
proposal involves what these "watermelon environmental" groups can do to
promote their weird notions of environmental wackoism in a constitutional
manner!

Why don't these groups voluntaraliy move to some pristine wilderness area
and use all of their proposals and develop a demonstration community that
is environmentally friendly? And if living in caves, herding sheep and
eating raw vegtables is appealling to other people, then people are
perfectly free to join them. 

And of course I would stipulate that these
wackos would of course leave people like me alone who favors suburban
"sprawl", nuclear power, all of the pro production proposals I made in my
energy independence artilce alone, and we all would live happilly ever
after? 

What utter tripe...pure unfiltered Limbaugh/Corporate twaddle.
This is Marta Limbaugh, right?
If you weren't so busy being aurally penetrated by the porcine one and
actually took the time to think for yourself you'd see how remarkably silly
you sound.

Bill.

Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[Steve Wingate]

-Caveat Lector-

I am leaving for a hiking trip in the Grand Canyon. Fortunately it is still
protected from oil drilling and mining operations.  :)

Steve

On 11 May 01, at 15:16, William Bacon wrote:

 Hello! Well it's been almost 3 days since I posted my ami an extremist?
 and no response from Steve Wingate. What's the matter? Your buzzword
 generator not working?
 Well anyway, you might ask what is your modest proposal? Well my modest
 proposal involves what these watermelon environmental groups can do to
 promote their weird notions of environmental wackoism in a constitutional
 manner!
 Why don't these groups voluntaraliy move to some pristine wilderness area
 and use all of their proposals and develop a demonstration community that
 is environmentally friendly? And if living in caves, herding sheep and
 eating raw vegtables is appealling to other people, then people are
 perfectly free to join them. And of course I would stipulate that these
 wackos would of course leave people like me alone who favors suburban
 sprawl, nuclear power, all of the pro production proposals I made in my
 energy independence artilce alone, and we all would live happilly ever
 after? Anything wrong with this? An inquiring mind would like to know!
 Bill Bacon



ANOMALOUS IMAGES AND UFO FILES
http://www.anomalous-images.com

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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]]

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

Jim Norman wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Scott Brown wrote:

   -Caveat Lector-
 
  nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-Caveat Lector-
  
   Scott Brown wrote:
   
 -Caveat Lector-
   
Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  -Caveat Lector-

 At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of
 intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the
  Second
 Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

 There is no intellectual honesty in this statement.  Intellectual honesty has
 nothing to do with amending our constitution.
  And so then, what other instrument of death would you ban next?  Cars?  How 'bout
 drugs?  Knives?

 
   
Scott Brown
  
   Disgusting or not you'll have to deal with it. Many of us are sick and
   tired
   of your mantra

 Thank God, you're in the minority.

If I'm in the minority now, I won't be for long. Just wait until the
next massacre.

 Most real Americans believe in the law of the land and many died defending same.

Oh cut the crap. I'm as real an American as you are, and slavery was
once the law
of the land. Laws change as society changes.

 I think we are all sick and tired of  crime
 created by .3% of the population causing others to want to pass laws not
 affecting the law breakers, but the rest of the population.

I'm not talking about crime. I'm talking about a huge population awash
in lethal
weapons. Too many people with too many guns. That's the problem. Not
who has them.

 Don't you know these
 kids broke many gun laws already on the books?  What makes you think that passing
 new laws or outlawing guns with affect criminals?

Of course more gun laws won't work. I'm talking about taking all your
guns away.
Then let's see what happens. No guns in the general population. Like
Japan and
England used to be.

 That's what makes criminals,
 criminals!  They break laws!

Yeah right. They are bad, bad people.

  . We would like to get guns out of daily life and see
   what happens.
   If the death rate drops ( which it will ) then that's the way it will
   stay.

 It only leads to despotism.  look in your history books.  Can you name the last
 country that gave up guns that its citizens are still free and crime did not go
 up?

Balli?

  No
   guns.
  
   It's going to happen. There is nothing you can do about it. And its
   about time.

 Fortunately, we have more mature, level headed people making laws in this country.

It only takes fifty one percent responding to their constituency.
 Joshua2

 
  You can believe that making guns illegal is an eventuality all you want.
  Why is it that the folks that claim nobody needs guns are also most often the
  people who believe our government has the interest of the people in in mind?

Not me I'm not one of those.

  Just like believing that you can disarm the public, this is pure fantasy. I
  will tell you this, if you think you are going to take away my right to defend
  myself and others as well, why don't you just try it and see what happens.

Oooh scary. I'm sure the Branch Davidians and the Black Panthers and
Randy Weaver
are just as scary as you are. Just scare the gun grabbers off by
waving your guns
and yelling as loud as you can..." over my dead body!"

Do the names Darwin, or Custer mean anything to you?

Joshua2

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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
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Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

Jim Norman wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Ric Carter wrote:

   -Caveat Lector-
 
  - Original Message -
  From: nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Scott Brown wrote:
Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of
 intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the
 Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
   
Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time to devote the time
and energy that is necessary to properly convey how your proposal
dissgusts me. So what I will say is this, I hope that you remember
your decision if we are deprived of our right to defend ourselves
against tyranny. In the remaining part of this year, and the next
3 or 4, you will see the error of this ignorance.
  

 You may be interested to know that the 2nd amendment confers no rights on the
 citizens of the United States.  Neither does the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th 6th, 7th, 8th,
 ect.  When you read any of those mentioned, please realize that they are not
 referring to the citizens.  Those amendments specifically refer to the
 government.  They forbid government from passing laws infringing those rights.  To
 repeal the 2nd simple means that the pre-existing right to keep and bear arms
 still exist.  All you're removing is the ability of the government to pass laws
 infringing those rights.  The rights still predate the constitution but you know
 how the government has such a problem playing by the rules.
 By the way, which one of the next bill of right amendments are you willing to
 drop?  Free Speech?  Freedom of Religion?  Do you realize that all of the bill of
 rights is resting on the 2nd?  No, you say?  Name one other country that had it's
 weapons removed from the citizens that survived as a Republic, or even a
 Democracy.
 Jim Norman


This amendment is 200 years old. It was written for a different
society with
a tiny population.

This is a different world. A different society with different
problems. This
America is way overpopulated in certain places and suffers from many
injustices
that result in a considerable segment of the population mentally unfit
for
the responsible use of firearms. When you add that fact to the
additional
problem of accidental deaths due to firearms, you get an appalling
death toll.

It's really absurd for gun nuts to keep pointing to the 2nd Am. It has
become
irrelevant in modern America. You think guns are cool and I don't.
When enough
people think like me, guns will be removed from this sick society, and
we'll
go from there. It might be a mistake or it might not. But you gun nuts
will
not prevent the rest of us from finding out.

The Colorado killings have turned the tide. I think you guys see the
writing
on the wall. To accommodate those of you who just can't live with
that, I would
set aside a " reservation " where any American can go live with their
guns.
Think of it as a free fire zone. How about Idaho?

As for hunters, how about this suggestion? All hunting in the state of
Idaho
would take place between three and three thirty AM on the first Sunday
in
June. All hunters would be confined to a very large corral where a
helicopter
would drop hundreds of live chickens, and the hunters could only shoot
the
chickens once they hit the ground. There would be no limit on kills.

Ahh.

Joshua2

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Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]

[Jim Norman]

 -Caveat Lector-

nurev wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Jim Norman wrote:
 
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  Ric Carter wrote:
 
-Caveat Lector-
  
   - Original Message -
   From: nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Scott Brown wrote:
 Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of
  intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the
  Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

 Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time to devote the time
 and energy that is necessary to properly convey how your proposal
 dissgusts me. So what I will say is this, I hope that you remember
 your decision if we are deprived of our right to defend ourselves
 against tyranny. In the remaining part of this year, and the next
 3 or 4, you will see the error of this ignorance.
   
 
  You may be interested to know that the 2nd amendment confers no rights on the
  citizens of the United States.  Neither does the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th 6th, 7th, 8th,
  ect.  When you read any of those mentioned, please realize that they are not
  referring to the citizens.  Those amendments specifically refer to the
  government.  They forbid government from passing laws infringing those rights.  To
  repeal the 2nd simple means that the pre-existing right to keep and bear arms
  still exist.  All you're removing is the ability of the government to pass laws
  infringing those rights.  The rights still predate the constitution but you know
  how the government has such a problem playing by the rules.
  By the way, which one of the next bill of right amendments are you willing to
  drop?  Free Speech?  Freedom of Religion?  Do you realize that all of the bill of
  rights is resting on the 2nd?  No, you say?  Name one other country that had it's
  weapons removed from the citizens that survived as a Republic, or even a
  Democracy.
  Jim Norman
 

 This amendment is 200 years old. It was written for a different
 society with
 a tiny population.

All the amendments are old, and were written for a country destined to grow.  They was
no mention about how these laws should change due to growth.  If fact growth only
exacerbated the problems.  What ever problems that existed then, still exist today.  
You
fail to respond to the challenge "Name one other country that had it's
 weapons removed from the citizens that survived as a Republic, or even a Democracy."



 This is a different world. A different society with different
 problems.

The more things change, the more they stay the same!  A different society?  I agree.
Different problems?  I don't think so.  Why do you think the 10 commandments are still
revaent today?

 This
 America is way overpopulated in certain places and suffers from many
 injustices
 that result in a considerable segment of the population mentally unfit
 for
 the responsible use of firearms.

Not even close.  The considerable segment is the normal people who would never think
about pulling a gun except to
defend them selves.  These idiots who shoot up schools are such a infinitesimal 
fraction
that it is also insignificant.  If it were not for the press giving so much coverage in
an attempt to promote the anti-gun agenda, you and I would never have heard about this.



 When you add that fact to the
 additional
 problem of accidental deaths due to firearms, you get an appalling
 death toll.

 It's not appalling.  accidental deaths are small compaired to other other forms of
 accidental death.

 It's really absurd for gun nuts to keep pointing to the 2nd Am. It has
 become
 irrelevant in modern America.

It's not absurd and you don't have to be a nut to keep a gun.  All you have to do is
want to protect yourself and your family.
The 2nd amendment will become irrelevant when a Constitutional Convention is held, a 
law
is passed in both houses repealing the 2nd, that law then presented to the States so
that if 3/4 of them accept, then the law can be changed.  Until then, it is still the
LAW OF THE LAND.

 You think guns are cool and I don't.

I think guns are nothing more than a tool.  No different than walking to my tool box 
and
picking up a hammer.  I am as careful with that hammer as I am with a gum.  Cool is not
even a consideration.  Accuracy is more important.


 When enough
 people think like me, guns will be removed from this sick society, and
 we'll
 go from there.

If the carpenter is sick, lets take his hammer away?  Is that the idea?

 It might be a mistake or it might not. But you gun nuts
 will
 not prevent the rest of us from finding out.

I think you Anti-gun nuts have a long way to go.  Maybe by then you will see the light
and begin doing
something constructive ...like helping to solve the social problems.



 The Colorado killings have turned the tide. I think you guys see the
 writing
 on the wall. To accommodate those of you who just can't live with
 that, I would
 set aside a " reservation 

Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[Howard R. Davis III]

 -Caveat Lector-

Robert Tatman wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a
sense of what I can
 only call spiritual and emotional maturity to propose that
the time has come
 to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

 What is at issue is not some supposed innate right to keep
and bear arms. What
 is at issue is the culture of violence that puts firearms on a
pedestal and
 worships them. What is at issue is the culture of violence
that insists on
 "getting even" instead of resolving conflicts.

   Your wish to end the "culture of violence" is a worthy goal. I, too,
would like to see it end, so we are in agreement here. I also do not
like guns or weapons of any kind. Holding a gun in my hands does not
feel good to me in any way. I am a violinist, composer, inventor, and
artist. I would rather create than destroy. However, I understand the
fear of those who do not want to see the citizens of this country
disarmed while the government remains massively so and shows signs of
turning into a police state. And, because I acknowledge the fact that
there are many who would see the confiscation of guns as a last straw
and would resist it with violence, I would have to oppose the ending of
this right for that reason, if for no other. So, I wonder if you really
desire to end the "culture of violence" and are not opposed to limiting
our present rights which are guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, that you
might embrace the modification of another of these amendments. Would not
an amendment to the Constitution which modified the first amendment to
allow the government to ban the depiction of violence in all
entertainment forms be something which you would support? This would
certainly go a long way towards ending the "culture of violence" you
wrote about and should garner more support than your proposal to repeal
the 2nd amendment. It seems to me that it would be an action towards
your goal which would be more acceptable to the majority of
conservatives who often favor censorship. Perhaps it might actually have
more difficulty among liberals, but I am sure that the importance of
ending the "culture of violence" would be a stronger motivating force
than any fear liberals might have of weakening the protection of
individual rights. And, we know from history that the loss of the
ability to show violence in entertainment would not significantly
diminish its quality or impact. Shakespeare was able to entertain and
enlighten millions with little (if any) depiction of violence. So would
not such a modification of the First Amendment be something which all
can support (except, of course, libertarians with their almost religious
belief in "rights").

Howard Davis

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Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]]

[Scott Brown]

 -Caveat Lector-

nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  -Caveat Lector-

 Scott Brown wrote:
 
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-Caveat Lector-
  
   At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of
   intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the
Second
   Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
 
  Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time to devote the time and
energy that is necessary to properly convey how your proposal dissgusts me. So
what I will say is this, I hope that you remember your decision if
  we are deprived of our right to defend ourselves against tyranny. In the
remaining part of this year, and the next 3 or 4, you will see the error of
this ignorance.
 
  Scott Brown

 Disgusting or not you'll have to deal with it. Many of us are sick and
 tired
 of your mantra. We would like to get guns out of daily life and see
 what happens.
 If the death rate drops ( which it will ) then that's the way it will
 stay. No
 guns.

 It's going to happen. There is nothing you can do about it. And its
 about time.

 Joshua2

You can believe that making guns illegal is an eventuality all you want.
Why is it that the folks that claim nobody needs guns are also most often the
people who believe our government has the interest of the people in in mind?
Just like believing that you can disarm the public, this is pure fantasy. I
will tell you this, if you think you are going to take away my right to defend
myself and others as well, why don't you just try it and see what happens.




 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
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 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
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 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
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spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]

[YnrChyldzWyld]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Tue, 4 May 1999, nurev wrote:
Disgusting or not you'll have to deal with it. Many of us are sick and
tired of your mantra. We would like to get guns out of daily life and
see what happens.

The Constitution is too precious to muck around with just to 'see what
happpens'


If the death rate drops ( which it will )

No it won't...hasn't dropped anywhere gun control has been enacted, in
fact gun deaths have risen...

It was easier to buy guns in the 1960s and 1970s, yet we never saw
drive-by shootings...now it has been made inordinately difficult for the
average, law-abiding citizen to buy a gun, and we see ERs overwhelmed
with gun injuries and deaths...

I think there should be laws ENCOURAGING people to buy guns and
carry them with them everywhere...if MORE people had guns, the crooks and
creeps would then have reason to pause and wonder if their intended
victims just might shoot back, instead of being 'sitting ducks'...

I used to be a strong advocate of gun control...but life ain't the rosy
'peace and love' scenario we envisioned it would become when we were
younger...and the plain fact of it is, we need to go back to the
vigilante days of the Wild West -- a time when disarming the law-
abiding citizenry also would not have worked...

It's a sad fact of the current state of affairs, and if you say you hate
the idea of our society reverting to 'cowboy justice', you won't get any
argument from me...but that doesn't change the FACT that that is the only
thing that will work at this point...

It also doesn't change the fact that what is lost in this gun control
debate is the question of just WHO is orchestrating this scenario, to
manipulate the public to be more willing to accept the further erosion of
our rights...cui bono?



June

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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

Ric Carter wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 - Original Message -
 From: Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of what
  I can only call spiritual and emotional maturity to propose that the time
  has come to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

 In some forums [fora?] you might indeed be flamed, but not here on
 CTRL.  Let me [as co-moderator] remind readers that personal attacks
 and criticisms are inappropriate here.  This is not UseNet.  Critique
 the writings, not the writer.  Any poster here may express totally
 insane ideas, but the poster him/herself is always an intelligent
 person of sparkling character.  Selah!


That's really beautiful man.

J2

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==
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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal]

[Teo One Thousand]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 5/5/99 11:33:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Teo, my response is simple: you cannot shoot someone without a firearm. I
 know
  that murder, assault, armed robbery, etc., are perfectly possible without
  guns...but they are *much* deadlier when committed with a gun. One of the
  deepest roots of our culture of violence is the assumption that each person
  has the right to be armed. If we are to change our culture to one that
 affirms
  life across the board, affirms true freedom, affirms the right of each
 person
  to seek happiness in his or her own way...if we are, in short, to turn
 America
  in a completely new direction, that *cannot* be accomplished without
 removing
  the threat posed by virtually uncontrolled private ownership of firearms.
I
 do
  know how to shoot--and precisely for that reason I feel a hell of a lot
 safer
  when there are no firearms around.

  Bob

A well reasoned proposal, but unfortunately not one likely to work.  The
affirmation of life in all its aspects is essential to stopping the
degradation that we as a society face.
I agree with you on your aims but disagree on the methods.  To change the
culture one must change the minds of the people.  Positive influence is
sorely needed and sorely lacking, thus we are where we are.
Teo1000

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==
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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
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Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[Andrew Kieran]

 -Caveat Lector-

At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of
intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the Second
Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.


risk of being massively flamed? don't you mean an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY?

i'm sure there's a lot of people on this list that equate the idea of
giving up their guns with asking the government to shoot them in the head
or something.

this is almost like saying to america and russia in the cold war "hey guys,
relax, throw away your nukes, and everything will be ok, dude"

firearms are a problem, yes, but taking them away will achieve Sweet Fanny
Adams, maybe you should attempt to tackle the PROBLEM, and not the symptom,
when you cure a disease the symptoms will go away.

i'm sure you can understand why people want to keep guns, it makes them
feel secure, people are scared, of criminals, the government, loonies,
whatever. hardly surprising considering the massive panic over drug crime
and gangs and the like and the general image of the US (well, the one i've
always had) as an incredibly bad place to live unless you're ridiculously
rich or something

that and incidents like Waco and general US government shittyness
throughout it's entire history to anyone it doesn't agree with (ie. most
people who stop to think)

What is at issue is not some supposed innate right to keep and bear arms. What
is at issue is the culture of violence that puts firearms on a pedestal and
worships them. What is at issue is the culture of violence that insists on
"getting even" instead of resolving conflicts. Two hundred years ago, it might
have been possible to defend yourself against an oppressive government by
shooting the excise agent. But that just isn't possible today--nor is it
desirable. The world is too complex a place today, and the weapons at the
government's disposal too powerful, for so simplistic a solution to work.

You have no more right to keep and bear arms than you have to own and operate
an automobile. All property "rights" are contingent on the permission of the
state; the state grants such rights, and the state can take away those rights
if circumstances warrant. I submit that the time has come when we, as a
society, can no longer afford to permit individuals to own and use firearms.
Further, I submit that firearms manufacturers are primarily responsible for
the *illegal* sale of firearms, and should therefore be subjected to stringent
governmental regulation and limited to production of firearms for the armed
services of the United States.

aye aye, so the chemist sells me some sleeping tablets and i overdose and
kill myself, is this the chemists fault? those who use the guns to hurt
people are responsible, not the manufacturers.

btw, i'm not defending the manufacturers, i personally hate anyone who will
happily make money out of manufacturing murder, that includes the WTO and
most major corporate-capitalist institutions

If the gun lobby insists on labeling this proposal as a conspiracy to
undermine citizens' "rights," I will respond by suggesting that the gun lobby
itself is part of an elaborate conspiracy to undermine the lawful authority of
the United States government, substituting the rule of force for the rule of
law. Surely, if a secret supranational organization such as the Illuminati

the rule of law IS the rule of force. he who has the force, makes the laws.

really exists, whose objective is to submerge all national identities in a
global culture, eliminating national governments in favor of a strengthened
United Nations, then they would choose to work *not* through the Federal
government...but through organizations and individuals who want to weaken the
U.S. government to the point where it effectively no longer exists. Such a
conspiracy would be much more likely to use a group like the NRA or the
Libertarian Party than the FBI or the BATF as its instrument.

the libertarian party being used by evil-conspiracy-people?
surely not, aren't liberals, like, nice and stuff?
i suppose the politicians have managed to mutilate the meaning of that word
as well then.

Let me repeat my proposal: the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to
the United States Constitution. Doing so would demonstrate more clearly than
any other possible action that the people of the United States have genuinely
grown up, that we are now mature enough that we do not need the crutch of
firearms to maintain our self-esteem.

and we'll do it with cars and mobile phones instead like everyone else. and
people get killed on the road, but that's ok, because that's only idiots

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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout 

Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]

[Andrew Kieran]

 -Caveat Lector-

Other arguments involve the use of personal firearms to ward off
domestic tyranny.  But if a tyrant controls the most powerful
military force on Earth, will personal firearms matter? Really?
Again, the 2nd Amendment makes no provision for fighting tyranny,
so such arguments are also extra-constitutional.

peaceful protest is often more successful than armed resistance.

think about it, soldiers aren't robots (although they're pretty damn
close), and it's gonna take a lot of persuasion to persuade a soldier that
shooting a large group of civilians is a good idea. sure, that nazis
managed it, but then the nazis had a ridiculous ideaology to follow and
brainwash people with. people are less likely to kill for the benefit of
some fat asshole in a suit.

the key to resisting tyranny is organisation and POPULAR revolt, not small
pockets of armed resistance, because let's face it, if they really want you
dead, all the machine guns and the pill-boxes in the world won't stop them,
they'll just drop a bomb on your stupid ass.

you should remember that the armed services is made up of people as well,
like you, and they aren't evil, if you can persuade the army not to shoot
you, then all is well, if you can't, then you've probably got the wrong
approach to resisting tyranny

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==
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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
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Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]

[Howard R. Davis III]

 -Caveat Lector-

YnrChyldzWyld wrote:

 I think there should be laws ENCOURAGING people to buy guns and
 carry them with them everywhere...if MORE people had guns, the crooks and
 creeps would then have reason to pause and wonder if their intended
 victims just might shoot back, instead of being 'sitting ducks'...


   After a city up north banned guns within the city limit and got a lot
of publicity, a small town north of Atlanta (Kennesaw) enacted a city
ordinance requiring every household to have a gun (if you didn't want
one, though, there were a lot of ways around the law). The crime rate
immediately dropped.

Howard Davis

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Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]]

[Jim Norman]

 -Caveat Lector-

Scott Brown wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  Scott Brown wrote:
  
-Caveat Lector-
  
   Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 -Caveat Lector-
   
At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of
intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the
 Second
Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

There is no intellectual honesty in this statement.  Intellectual honesty has
nothing to do with amending our constitution.
 And so then, what other instrument of death would you ban next?  Cars?  How 'bout
drugs?  Knives?


  
   Scott Brown
 
  Disgusting or not you'll have to deal with it. Many of us are sick and
  tired
  of your mantra

Thank God, you're in the minority.  Most real Americans believe in the law of the
land and many died defending same.  I think we are all sick and tired of  crime
created by .3% of the population causing others to want to pass laws not
affecting the law breakers, but the rest of the population.  Don't you know these
kids broke many gun laws already on the books?  What makes you think that passing
new laws or outlawing guns with affect criminals?  That's what makes criminals,
criminals!  They break laws!

 . We would like to get guns out of daily life and see
  what happens.
  If the death rate drops ( which it will ) then that's the way it will
  stay.

It only leads to despotism.  look in your history books.  Can you name the last
country that gave up guns that its citizens are still free and crime did not go
up?

 No
  guns.
 
  It's going to happen. There is nothing you can do about it. And its
  about time.

Fortunately, we have more mature, level headed people making laws in this country.


 
  Joshua2

 You can believe that making guns illegal is an eventuality all you want.
 Why is it that the folks that claim nobody needs guns are also most often the
 people who believe our government has the interest of the people in in mind?
 Just like believing that you can disarm the public, this is pure fantasy. I
 will tell you this, if you think you are going to take away my right to defend
 myself and others as well, why don't you just try it and see what happens.

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Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]

[Jim Norman]

 -Caveat Lector-

[snip]
Tyranny was the sole reason the 2nd Amendment came about, idiot...


June

You go girl...!
Jim

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Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[Ric Carter]

 -Caveat Lector-

- Original Message -
From: Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of what
 I can only call spiritual and emotional maturity to propose that the time
 has come to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

In some forums [fora?] you might indeed be flamed, but not here on
CTRL.  Let me [as co-moderator] remind readers that personal attacks
and criticisms are inappropriate here.  This is not UseNet.  Critique
the writings, not the writer.  Any poster here may express totally
insane ideas, but the poster him/herself is always an intelligent
person of sparkling character.  Selah!

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spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

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Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[Teo One Thousand]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 5/3/99 6:08:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of what I
 can
  only call spiritual and emotional maturity to propose that the time has
come
  to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.


This is not the answer.  At issue is the right to defend oneself, and guns
offer that to many people.  People do have an inalienable right to life,
liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Having a weapon, whether it is a gun
or not is necessary in order to insure those right, at least sometimes, and
especially so today.  It is NEVER the instrument that is the culprit, but
ALWAYS the wielder of the instrument.  By themselves guns are no more deadly
than a big stone, but if used they both can kill.  It takes a killer to kill,
or perhaps mind controlled assassins, which most of the people here would
agree is a possibility.  If Johnny goody-two-shoes takes a gun and kills
little Jimmy then Johnny is the problem, NOT the gun.  Yes, guns are the
source of too much reverence, and yes their proliferation is a sad statement
on the nature of today's society, but outlawing them will not solve anything.
 Drugs are illegal, murder is illegal, rape is illegal, assault is illegal,
but they all STILL occur in huge numbers.  Which is just another reason why
guns should NOT be illegal.
Teo1000

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spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

Robert Tatman wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of what I can
 only call spiritual and emotional maturity to propose that the time has come
 to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

 What is at issue is not some supposed innate right to keep and bear arms. What
 is at issue is the culture of violence that puts firearms on a pedestal and
 worships them. What is at issue is the culture of violence that insists on
 "getting even" instead of resolving conflicts. Two hundred years ago, it might
 have been possible to defend yourself against an oppressive government by
 shooting the excise agent. But that just isn't possible today--nor is it
 desirable. The world is too complex a place today, and the weapons at the
 government's disposal too powerful, for so simplistic a solution to work.

 You have no more right to keep and bear arms than you have to own and operate
 an automobile. All property "rights" are contingent on the permission of the
 state; the state grants such rights, and the state can take away those rights
 if circumstances warrant. I submit that the time has come when we, as a
 society, can no longer afford to permit individuals to own and use firearms.
 Further, I submit that firearms manufacturers are primarily responsible for
 the *illegal* sale of firearms, and should therefore be subjected to stringent
 governmental regulation and limited to production of firearms for the armed
 services of the United States.

 If the gun lobby insists on labeling this proposal as a conspiracy to
 undermine citizens' "rights," I will respond by suggesting that the gun lobby
 itself is part of an elaborate conspiracy to undermine the lawful authority of
 the United States government, substituting the rule of force for the rule of
 law. Surely, if a secret supranational organization such as the Illuminati
 really exists, whose objective is to submerge all national identities in a
 global culture, eliminating national governments in favor of a strengthened
 United Nations, then they would choose to work *not* through the Federal
 government...but through organizations and individuals who want to weaken the
 U.S. government to the point where it effectively no longer exists. Such a
 conspiracy would be much more likely to use a group like the NRA or the
 Libertarian Party than the FBI or the BATF as its instrument.

 Let me repeat my proposal: the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to
 the United States Constitution. Doing so would demonstrate more clearly than
 any other possible action that the people of the United States have genuinely
 grown up, that we are now mature enough that we do not need the crutch of
 firearms to maintain our self-esteem.

 Bob


Bravo! Where do I sign up.

Joshua2

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[Jerry Rivas]

 -Caveat Lector-

It is that kind of thinking that leads to an oppressive government.  We have
created the world in which we live in.  These tools we use to kill are of
our own devising.  Where will revocation stop?  What will we take away next?
Man will kill with whatever tools suit him, can you not see that?  It is not
an object that kills, it is the evil in us all.

Let me remind you, it is against the our laws to kill one another.  Even
suicide is against the law.  Yet how is it that it still occurs?  It is a
flaw in the human spirit that allows this to happen and any law we can think
up will not stop it.  It is something that flows much deeper. We will endure
and inflict so much more suffering before we embrace the thing that
separates us from insects and animals.  There is a holocaust going on before
our very eyes and there is not enough love in the world to fight it.

Yes, there are those of us who would like a world without guns, hate and
death.  But that is not for this world, that is not for this time.  Be just,
be kind, and be devoted to righteousness.  And with hope, you shall not fail
in this.




-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Robert Tatman
Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 2:09 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal


 -Caveat Lector-

At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of what I
can
only call spiritual and emotional maturity to propose that the time has come
to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

What is at issue is not some supposed innate right to keep and bear arms.
What
is at issue is the culture of violence that puts firearms on a pedestal and
worships them. What is at issue is the culture of violence that insists on
"getting even" instead of resolving conflicts. Two hundred years ago, it
might
have been possible to defend yourself against an oppressive government by
shooting the excise agent. But that just isn't possible today--nor is it
desirable. The world is too complex a place today, and the weapons at the
government's disposal too powerful, for so simplistic a solution to work.

You have no more right to keep and bear arms than you have to own and
operate
an automobile. All property "rights" are contingent on the permission of the
state; the state grants such rights, and the state can take away those
rights
if circumstances warrant. I submit that the time has come when we, as a
society, can no longer afford to permit individuals to own and use firearms.
Further, I submit that firearms manufacturers are primarily responsible for
the *illegal* sale of firearms, and should therefore be subjected to
stringent
governmental regulation and limited to production of firearms for the armed
services of the United States.

If the gun lobby insists on labeling this proposal as a conspiracy to
undermine citizens' "rights," I will respond by suggesting that the gun
lobby
itself is part of an elaborate conspiracy to undermine the lawful authority
of
the United States government, substituting the rule of force for the rule of
law. Surely, if a secret supranational organization such as the Illuminati
really exists, whose objective is to submerge all national identities in a
global culture, eliminating national governments in favor of a strengthened
United Nations, then they would choose to work *not* through the Federal
government...but through organizations and individuals who want to weaken
the
U.S. government to the point where it effectively no longer exists. Such a
conspiracy would be much more likely to use a group like the NRA or the
Libertarian Party than the FBI or the BATF as its instrument.

Let me repeat my proposal: the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment
to
the United States Constitution. Doing so would demonstrate more clearly than
any other possible action that the people of the United States have
genuinely
grown up, that we are now mature enough that we do not need the crutch of
firearms to maintain our self-esteem.

Bob


=
Robert F. Tatman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

Scott Brown wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of
  intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the Second
  Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

 Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time to devote the time and energy that 
is necessary to properly convey how your proposal dissgusts me. So what I will say is 
this, I hope that you remember your decision if
 we are deprived of our right to defend ourselves against tyranny. In the remaining 
part of this year, and the next 3 or 4, you will see the error of this ignorance.

 Scott Brown

Disgusting or not you'll have to deal with it. Many of us are sick and
tired
of your mantra. We would like to get guns out of daily life and see
what happens.
If the death rate drops ( which it will ) then that's the way it will
stay. No
guns.

It's going to happen. There is nothing you can do about it. And its
about time.

Joshua2

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==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]

[Ric Carter]

 -Caveat Lector-

- Original Message -
From: nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Scott Brown wrote:
  Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of
   intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the
   Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
 
  Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time to devote the time
  and energy that is necessary to properly convey how your proposal
  dissgusts me. So what I will say is this, I hope that you remember
  your decision if we are deprived of our right to defend ourselves
  against tyranny. In the remaining part of this year, and the next
  3 or 4, you will see the error of this ignorance.

 Disgusting or not you'll have to deal with it. Many of us are sick and
 tired of your mantra. We would like to get guns out of daily life and
 see what happens. If the death rate drops ( which it will ) then that's
 the way it will stay. No guns.

Rather than chant mantras from any side of the question, it may be
useful to examine the basis and reality of the current situation.

The 2nd Amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia, being neces-
sary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to
keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."  [Some [people quibble
over the existence of certain commas in there.]  What does it mean?
[Note that the Founders purposely worded this Amendment so that we'd
have something to argue over.  The clever bastards...]

As stated, the "right to bear arms" is about STATE security, not
individual self-protection.  Arguments about guns being necessary
for self-protection are thus extra-constitutional.  The necessity
of a WELL-REGULATED militia is stated; arguments that gun control
is unconstitutional are thus bogus.  The Founders did not specify
what they considered to be "arms", usable weapons. Did they mean
personal firearms, military weapons, or any combative materials?

So we get down to the crux:  Are personal firearms or any other
weaponry, now, today, necessary for State security?  To evaluate
that question, we need to ask other questions:  Just what *are*
the threats to State security?  Are these threats defensible by
a Militia armed with personal firearms or other weaponry?  Who ya
gonna fight, and with what?

So, what are the real threats?  Terrorists with explosives or NBC
[Nuclear/Biological/Chemical] weapons; enemy states employing same,
delivered by strategic or tactical means; crippling of the power,
transport and/or information infrastructures via cyberwar; propa-
ganda, disinformation, "memes"; armed invasion of the continental
US [CONUS]; attack from outer space by advanced extraterrestrials.

We might not be able to do much against ETs with ANY weaponry.
An armed invasion of CONUS seems rather unlikely IMHO, although
I'm sure many would disagree with me.  That leaves terrorists,
tactical/strategic NBC/X attacks, and infowar.  Are any of these
threats defensible with personal firearms?  Really?

Other arguments involve the use of personal firearms to ward off
domestic tyranny.  But if a tyrant controls the most powerful
military force on Earth, will personal firearms matter? Really?
Again, the 2nd Amendment makes no provision for fighting tyranny,
so such arguments are also extra-constitutional.

I don't have any good answers, just a lot more questions.  Bother.

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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]

[Jim Norman]

 -Caveat Lector-

Ric Carter wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 - Original Message -
 From: nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Scott Brown wrote:
   Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of
intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the
Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
  
   Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time to devote the time
   and energy that is necessary to properly convey how your proposal
   dissgusts me. So what I will say is this, I hope that you remember
   your decision if we are deprived of our right to defend ourselves
   against tyranny. In the remaining part of this year, and the next
   3 or 4, you will see the error of this ignorance.
 

You may be interested to know that the 2nd amendment confers no rights on the
citizens of the United States.  Neither does the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th 6th, 7th, 8th,
ect.  When you read any of those mentioned, please realize that they are not
referring to the citizens.  Those amendments specifically refer to the
government.  They forbid government from passing laws infringing those rights.  To
repeal the 2nd simple means that the pre-existing right to keep and bear arms
still exist.  All you're removing is the ability of the government to pass laws
infringing those rights.  The rights still predate the constitution but you know
how the government has such a problem playing by the rules.
By the way, which one of the next bill of right amendments are you willing to
drop?  Free Speech?  Freedom of Religion?  Do you realize that all of the bill of
rights is resting on the 2nd?  No, you say?  Name one other country that had it's
weapons removed from the citizens that survived as a Republic, or even a
Democracy.
Jim Norman

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==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]

[Howard R. Davis III]

 -Caveat Lector-

nurev wrote:


 We would like to get guns out of daily life and see
 what happens.
 If the death rate drops ( which it will ) then that's the way it will
 stay.

I recently got the following e-mail suggesting that your assertion that
the death rate would drop is incorrect. However, if there is a rise in
tyranny (as many who disagree with your proposal suggest), then your
suggestion that the gun ban will stay in place will be correct.

Howard Davis

AUSTRALIA SEES MAJOR CRIME INCREASE AFTER GOVERNMENT
FIREARMS BAN

The results are in from Australia after theAustralian government banned
firearms
and forced the country's gun-owners to surrender 640,381 personal
firearms to be
destroyed, and the results are what we expected.

In just one year after the government ban went into effect, costing the
Citizens of
Australia their rights the government more than  500-million dollars, a
dramatic
increase in criminal activity has occurred, including a whopping 44%
increase in armed robberies.

Despite the increase in violent crime, gun control advocates within the
country continue to take a wait-and-see attitude.

Since the firearm ban in Australia:

* Homicides are up 3.2%;
* Assaults are up 8.6%; and
* Armed robberies up 44%.

In the Australian state of Victoria, homicides with firearms increased
300%
despite the government ordered ban.

Statistics show that in the 25-years previous of the ban, there had been
a steady
decrease in homicides with firearms and in armed robbery with firearms.

Additionally, there has been a dramatic increase in break-ins and
assaults of the
elderly throughout the Country.  At the time the ban went into effect,
Australian government officials said they believed that seIf-deefense
was not a reason
for owing firearms.

From 1910 until the year prior to the ban, homicides in Australia had
averaged about 1.8 per 100,000 or lower, and was considered a safe
society by the world's
standards.

Australian politicians are now at a loss to explain why no improvement
in safety has been observed after the monumental effort and expense was
made in banning firearms from the society. Their response has sirnply
been to wait longer.

Sporting Shooter's Association of AustraliaExecutive Director Keith
TidsweIl noted
the citizens of the United States are fortunate because of the activity
of pro-
firearm organizations like TSRA (Texas State Rifle Association) and NRA
(National Rifle Association).

"The best organization you've got there (in the U.S.) is the NRA.  We
don't have an
organization that size and as a consequence, we suffered. We hope that
you don't suffer."

Membership in Tidswell's organization has risen 200% in response to the
ban as an
attempt to organize against further controls, which are expected
throughout
the country.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

[CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of
intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the Second
Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

What is at issue is not some supposed innate right to keep and bear arms. What
is at issue is the culture of violence that puts firearms on a pedestal and
worships them. What is at issue is the culture of violence that insists on
"getting even" instead of resolving conflicts. Two hundred years ago, it might
have been possible to defend yourself against an oppressive government by
shooting the excise agent. But that just isn't possible today--nor is it
desirable. The world is too complex a place today, and the weapons at the
government's disposal too powerful, for so simplistic a solution to work.

You have no more right to keep and bear arms than you have to own and operate
an automobile. All property "rights" are contingent on the permission of the
state; the state grants such rights, and the state can take away those rights
if circumstances warrant. I submit that the time has come when we, as a
society, can no longer afford to permit individuals to own and use firearms.
Further, I submit that firearms manufacturers are primarily responsible for
the *illegal* sale of firearms, and should therefore be subjected to stringent
governmental regulation and limited to production of firearms for the armed
services of the United States.

If the gun lobby insists on labeling this proposal as a conspiracy to
undermine citizens' "rights," I will respond by suggesting that the gun lobby
itself is part of an elaborate conspiracy to undermine the lawful authority of
the United States government, substituting the rule of force for the rule of
law. Surely, if a secret supranational organization such as the Illuminati
really exists, whose objective is to submerge all national identities in a
global culture, eliminating national governments in favor of a strengthened
United Nations, then they would choose to work *not* through the Federal
government...but through organizations and individuals who want to weaken the
U.S. government to the point where it effectively no longer exists. Such a
conspiracy would be much more likely to use a group like the NRA or the
Libertarian Party than the FBI or the BATF as its instrument.

Let me repeat my proposal: the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to
the United States Constitution. Doing so would demonstrate more clearly than
any other possible action that the people of the United States have genuinely
grown up, that we are now mature enough that we do not need the crutch of
firearms to maintain our self-esteem.

Bob


=
Robert F. Tatman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Remove "nospam" from the address to reply.

NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is
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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

[CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of what I can
only call spiritual and emotional maturity to propose that the time has come
to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

What is at issue is not some supposed innate right to keep and bear arms. What
is at issue is the culture of violence that puts firearms on a pedestal and
worships them. What is at issue is the culture of violence that insists on
"getting even" instead of resolving conflicts. Two hundred years ago, it might
have been possible to defend yourself against an oppressive government by
shooting the excise agent. But that just isn't possible today--nor is it
desirable. The world is too complex a place today, and the weapons at the
government's disposal too powerful, for so simplistic a solution to work.

You have no more right to keep and bear arms than you have to own and operate
an automobile. All property "rights" are contingent on the permission of the
state; the state grants such rights, and the state can take away those rights
if circumstances warrant. I submit that the time has come when we, as a
society, can no longer afford to permit individuals to own and use firearms.
Further, I submit that firearms manufacturers are primarily responsible for
the *illegal* sale of firearms, and should therefore be subjected to stringent
governmental regulation and limited to production of firearms for the armed
services of the United States.

If the gun lobby insists on labeling this proposal as a conspiracy to
undermine citizens' "rights," I will respond by suggesting that the gun lobby
itself is part of an elaborate conspiracy to undermine the lawful authority of
the United States government, substituting the rule of force for the rule of
law. Surely, if a secret supranational organization such as the Illuminati
really exists, whose objective is to submerge all national identities in a
global culture, eliminating national governments in favor of a strengthened
United Nations, then they would choose to work *not* through the Federal
government...but through organizations and individuals who want to weaken the
U.S. government to the point where it effectively no longer exists. Such a
conspiracy would be much more likely to use a group like the NRA or the
Libertarian Party than the FBI or the BATF as its instrument.

Let me repeat my proposal: the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to
the United States Constitution. Doing so would demonstrate more clearly than
any other possible action that the people of the United States have genuinely
grown up, that we are now mature enough that we do not need the crutch of
firearms to maintain our self-esteem.

Bob


=
Robert F. Tatman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Remove "nospam" from the address to reply.

NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is
distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in
receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For

more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml

POSTING THIS MESSAGE TO THE INTERNET DOES NOT IMPLY PERMISSION TO SEND
UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL (SPAM) TO THIS OR ANY OTHER INTERNET ADDRESS.
RECEIPT OF SPAM WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION OF THE SENDER'S ISP.


Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at 
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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]

[Scott Brown]

 -Caveat Lector-

Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  -Caveat Lector-

 At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of
 intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the Second
 Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

 What is at issue is not some supposed innate right to keep and bear arms. What
 is at issue is the culture of violence that puts firearms on a pedestal and
 worships them. What is at issue is the culture of violence that insists on
 "getting even" instead of resolving conflicts. Two hundred years ago, it might
 have been possible to defend yourself against an oppressive government by
 shooting the excise agent. But that just isn't possible today--nor is it
 desirable. The world is too complex a place today, and the weapons at the
 government's disposal too powerful, for so simplistic a solution to work.

 You have no more right to keep and bear arms than you have to own and operate
 an automobile. All property "rights" are contingent on the permission of the
 state; the state grants such rights, and the state can take away those rights
 if circumstances warrant. I submit that the time has come when we, as a
 society, can no longer afford to permit individuals to own and use firearms.
 Further, I submit that firearms manufacturers are primarily responsible for
 the *illegal* sale of firearms, and should therefore be subjected to stringent
 governmental regulation and limited to production of firearms for the armed
 services of the United States.

 If the gun lobby insists on labeling this proposal as a conspiracy to
 undermine citizens' "rights," I will respond by suggesting that the gun lobby
 itself is part of an elaborate conspiracy to undermine the lawful authority of
 the United States government, substituting the rule of force for the rule of
 law. Surely, if a secret supranational organization such as the Illuminati
 really exists, whose objective is to submerge all national identities in a
 global culture, eliminating national governments in favor of a strengthened
 United Nations, then they would choose to work *not* through the Federal
 government...but through organizations and individuals who want to weaken the
 U.S. government to the point where it effectively no longer exists. Such a
 conspiracy would be much more likely to use a group like the NRA or the
 Libertarian Party than the FBI or the BATF as its instrument.

 Let me repeat my proposal: the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to
 the United States Constitution. Doing so would demonstrate more clearly than
 any other possible action that the people of the United States have genuinely
 grown up, that we are now mature enough that we do not need the crutch of
 firearms to maintain our self-esteem.

 Bob

Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time to devote the time and energy that 
is necessary to properly convey how your proposal dissgusts me. So what I will say is 
this, I hope that you remember your decision if
we are deprived of our right to defend ourselves against tyranny. In the remaining 
part of this year, and the next 3 or 4, you will see the error of this ignorance.

Scott Brown







 =
 Robert F. Tatman
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Remove "nospam" from the address to reply.

 NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is
 distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in
 receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For

 more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml

 POSTING THIS MESSAGE TO THE INTERNET DOES NOT IMPLY PERMISSION TO SEND
 UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL (SPAM) TO THIS OR ANY OTHER INTERNET ADDRESS.
 RECEIPT OF SPAM WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION OF THE SENDER'S ISP.

 
 Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at 
http://webmail.netscape.com.

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
 http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: