Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- J2, Ouch, should I snitch to the list server that you were mean to me? No, that would be juvenile. Didn`t you learn in kindergarten no one likes a tattle tale? Trying to be civil, Jeff http://community.webtv.net/oldschool2/Jeffsonceandfuture http://community.webtv.net/oldschool2/JeffSandlins A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soap-boxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Jeff Sandlin wrote: J2, you said "the Jews are who they say they are. It`s genetically undisputable." Does becoming a Christian change their genetic make up? Do you ever let logic intrude into your thought process? Hell, no! But J2 himself is a study in "psycho-genetics". Now look at the stats on the present conversion rate (into Antichrist Judaism and out of it) and project that back a few hundred years and you see why none of these "Jewish" family trees can be traced back more than a few centuries while the "King of the Jews", Jesus Christ, has a family tree that can be traced back generation-by-generation all the way to King David...from TODAY. And to get the proof of that you have to read [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or just take "Rabbi" J2's word that those in New Khazaria today are the real McCoy descendents of the Tribes of Judah and Israel. But would you buy a used camel from J2? FWP. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soap-boxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Nurev Ind Research wrote: Franklin Wayne Poley wrote: Markers of what? What three markers? So what? How do they link back to the priesthood of Moses and Aaron? FWP. Bravo Poley. Well said. Your a tough hombre to philosophize with. J2 Thanks J2. I didn't get that Phud in "Psycho-genetics" for nothing. The constancy of the Cohen Y chromosome proves NOTHING re descent from the ancient priesthood. Others surmise that the variations on the name Cohen come from the multitudinous harem brats of the Khans. One speculation is as logical as the other. FWP. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soap-boxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] The Saga of Shlomo Poley, was Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Nurev Ind Research wrote: These Jews for Jesus are Pro-Christ Jews by their self-description but they are rejected by the Anti-Christ Jews. Jews for Jesus ARE NOT JEWS. They are Christians by definition. They believe that Jesus is god. This is ONLY a Christian belief. "Judaism is one, denominations are many" (Jewish Almanac, 1980, p. 504). Now there are at least two denominations claiming to be REAL JEWS. As a matter of fact I was talking to a very semitic-looking Jew at Missions Fest 2000 this year in Vancouver. He had a display booth. He said he wasn't from "Jews For Jesus" but he too believed he was 100% Jewish and 100% Christian so I suppose he was another denomination again. Judging from the phenotype I would say genetically he would be as much a "semite" as Barak, Khadaffy or Hussein. So let's put biology aside here. Which denomination has the papal infallibility to excommunicate the others? Tell us, Rabbi J2. Now, Bob Cohen tells me there are "Jewish" Poleys. (They descend from great, great, great grandpa Shlomo Poley who wrote the Protocols of the Learned Elder of Zion, founded Khazar University and invented the bagel). Now if Jesus Christ is King of the Jews, which Poleys should be entitled to park their asses (and camels) on a patch of sand and fight a perpetual war against 100 million Arabs? "The stupid ones" is the correct answer. FWP. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soap-boxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- Jeff Sandlin wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- J2, you said "the Jews are who they say they are. It`s genetically undisputable." Does becoming a Christian change their genetic make up? Do you ever let logic intrude into your thought process? I can only handle one idiot at a time. If Poley is done with our dicussion I'll be glad to teach you how to read. J2 A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soap-boxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- Franklin Wayne Poley wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Nurev Ind Research wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- Franklin Wayne Poley wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- Maybe we should ask Khazar University (It has a web site). The "Law of Return" is one of the Constitutional documents of Israel. If I remember correctly it emphasizes (Anti-Christ) Jewish religion and not biological race. I think it says if you have a Jewish mother you are considered to be a Jew (one criterion) but only if you haven't converted to another religion. This is right. So far so good Poley. I suppose some world religions are exempt in practice but not Christianity. Ah, this is the Poley I know and love. WRONG. I SUPPOSED that one could, for example be a Taoist and a Jew. But I am asking and since you are the expert what is the answer? The answer is...how does the Taoist Jew raise his/her children? Taoist or Jew. Do they study Taoism or Judaism? How do they identify PRIMARILY? Thus the Cohen written up in the local BC Christian News recently as a convert to Christianity is now excommunicated and does not have aliyeh rights. His biology hasn't changed. But he is no longer a Jew is he ? Jews for Jesus said on Larry King recently that they were 100% Jewish and 100% Christian so it DEPENDS ON WHOSE OPINION YOU SOLICIT. No it doesn't. The answer is ridiculous. They are Christians BY DEFINITION. If you believe that Christ is Lord then you are a Christian. No Jew believes that Christ is Lord. No Muslim believes that Christ is Lord. No Hindu either. Only Christians believe that Christ is Lord. What is so complicated about this? Jews for Jesus is a lie. I am a Jew for Jesus. They are jewish converts to Christianity. Or are the rabbis of New Khazaria (Israel) saying they have papal infallibility with respect to their ecommunications? Cut the Khazaria shit Poley. It's over. It was a stupid ploy to begin with. The right of return is only for Jews in the Jewish State. This isn't too difficult to comprehend is it? It is very clear as long as there is no controversy as to which self-professed Jews are the REAL McCOYS, so to speak. Cut the REAL McCOYS shit Poley. It's over. The Jews are who they say they are and it is now genetically indisputable. Deal with it. These Jews for Jesus are Pro-Christ Jews by their self-description but they are rejected by the Anti-Christ Jews. Jews for Jesus ARE NOT JEWS. They are Christians by definition. They believe that Jesus is god. This is ONLY a Christian belief. But THEIR definition does not prevent them from also being Christians. Why is your definition the only right one? What are you talking about? They ARE Christians. If they also claim to be purple toads, that doesn't make them so. There is still reality to contend with. No Jew on the planet considers Jews for Jesus to be Jews. Who else should make that determination? You? This is because the teachings of Christ are regarded as BLASPHEMY by the Israeli Establishment. Ah, now we get into Poleyisms. Fasten your seat belts we are leaving reality. Why do you think the Sanhedrin was party to the crucifixion of Christ 2,000 years ago? The crime was BLASPHEMY...that man could say that God spoke through him. That gospel story is phony. All of the details are unhistorical. The Israeli Establishment is non religious and doesn't give a shit about the teachings of Christ. If that were true they would have no difficuly with "Jews for Jesus". What difficulty do they have with JfJ? None. They are no problem at all. They do however fund and execute many archaeological projects and studies which focus on first century Jewish history in Judea and especially around Jerusalem. They are particularly interested in a group of revolutionary Jews known as The Poor. This group was headed by a devout Jewish leader named Yeshua who was crucified by the Romans for insurrection. And the Sanhedrin had no part in this? No one knows because there is no historical reference to Jesus. After his death, the movement was led by his brother James, and his chief disciple " Peter " who was a known revolutionary. "God CANNOT be manifested in a human being" is the succint explanation I think. That is correct. It's called idolatry and is forbidden by Jewish and Muslim law. Now you agree with my reasoning which you disagreed with above. Praise da lo'd! You have seen da' light! However, I have yet to encounter a rabbi on the Internet who could defend such a theology. It is what it is and doesn't need to be defended. Deification of humans is purely pagan. Paul of Tarsus deified his version of Jesus for the pagans so that
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- Franklin Wayne Poley wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, William Shannon wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- In a message dated 3/10/00 7:37:36 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DNA testing on Cohanim has established three clear markers. Do tell Nessie! Markers of what? What three markers? So what? How do they link back to the priesthood of Moses and Aaron? FWP. Bravo Poley. Well said. Your a tough hombre to philosophize with. J2 A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soap-boxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- J2, you said "the Jews are who they say they are. It`s genetically undisputable." Does becoming a Christian change their genetic make up? Do you ever let logic intrude into your thought process? http://community.webtv.net/oldschool2/Jeffsonceandfuture http://community.webtv.net/oldschool2/JeffSandlins A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soap-boxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Nurev Ind Research wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- Franklin Wayne Poley wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- Maybe we should ask Khazar University (It has a web site). The "Law of Return" is one of the Constitutional documents of Israel. If I remember correctly it emphasizes (Anti-Christ) Jewish religion and not biological race. I think it says if you have a Jewish mother you are considered to be a Jew (one criterion) but only if you haven't converted to another religion. This is right. So far so good Poley. I suppose some world religions are exempt in practice but not Christianity. Ah, this is the Poley I know and love. WRONG. I SUPPOSED that one could, for example be a Taoist and a Jew. But I am asking and since you are the expert what is the answer? Thus the Cohen written up in the local BC Christian News recently as a convert to Christianity is now excommunicated and does not have aliyeh rights. His biology hasn't changed. But he is no longer a Jew is he ? Jews for Jesus said on Larry King recently that they were 100% Jewish and 100% Christian so it DEPENDS ON WHOSE OPINION YOU SOLICIT. Or are the rabbis of New Khazaria (Israel) saying they have papal infallibility with respect to their ecommunications? The right of return is only for Jews in the Jewish State. This isn't too difficult to comprehend is it? It is very clear as long as there is no controversy as to which self-professed Jews are the REAL McCOYS, so to speak. These Jews for Jesus are Pro-Christ Jews by their self-description but they are rejected by the Anti-Christ Jews. Jews for Jesus ARE NOT JEWS. They are Christians by definition. They believe that Jesus is god. This is ONLY a Christian belief. But THEIR definition does not prevent them from also being Christians. Why is your definition the only right one? This is because the teachings of Christ are regarded as BLASPHEMY by the Israeli Establishment. Ah, now we get into Poleyisms. Fasten your seat belts we are leaving reality. Why do you think the Sanhedrin was party to the crucifixion of Christ 2,000 years ago? The crime was BLASPHEMY...that man could say that God spoke through him. The Israeli Establishment is non religious and doesn't give a shit about the teachings of Christ. If that were true they would have no difficuly with "Jews for Jesus". They do however fund and execute many archaeological projects and studies which focus on first century Jewish history in Judea and especially around Jerusalem. They are particularly interested in a group of revolutionary Jews known as The Poor. This group was headed by a devout Jewish leader named Yeshua who was crucified by the Romans for insurrection. And the Sanhedrin had no part in this? After his death, the movement was led by his brother James, and his chief disciple " Peter " who was a known revolutionary. "God CANNOT be manifested in a human being" is the succint explanation I think. That is correct. It's called idolatry and is forbidden by Jewish and Muslim law. Now you agree with my reasoning which you disagreed with above. Praise da lo'd! You have seen da' light! However, I have yet to encounter a rabbi on the Internet who could defend such a theology. It is what it is and doesn't need to be defended. Deification of humans is purely pagan. Paul of Tarsus deified his version of Jesus for the pagans so that they could worship something "new" but still within a context which they understood. Hence the Jewish Jesus became the pagan Christ, a human deity. Are Christians today PAGANS? If you find one put him on. FWP. Here I am baby. " Rabbi " J2 Hallelujah!!! When are you going to start with setting the matter straight? FWP. On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, William Shannon wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- By: Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal, historian, journalist and lecturer, is a graduate of Cornell University and Columbia Law School. During the Second World War, he served with the US Army in the Middle East. He later served with the Department of State, and as a consultant to the American delegation at the organising meeting of the United Nations in San Francisco. Since 1947, he has been at the forefront in the struggle for a balanced US policy in the Middle East. He is the author of several acclaimed books on the Middle East, including The Zionist Connection. He now lives in Washington, DC. On December 18, 1993 Dr. Lilienthal celebrated both his 80th birthday and the 40th anniversary of his first book, What Price 'Israel'? Dr Lilienthal, who is a courageous anti-Zionist Jew, was joined by more than 200 guests who travelled from all over the United States to
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, William Shannon wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- In a message dated 3/10/00 7:37:36 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DNA testing on Cohanim has established three clear markers. Do tell Nessie! Markers of what? What three markers? So what? How do they link back to the priesthood of Moses and Aaron? FWP. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soap-boxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- Maybe we should ask Khazar University (It has a web site). The "Law of Return" is one of the Constitutional documents of Israel. If I remember correctly it emphasizes (Anti-Christ) Jewish religion and not biological race. I think it says if you have a Jewish mother you are considered to be a Jew (one criterion) but only if you haven't converted to another religion. I suppose some world religions are exempt in practice but not Christianity. Thus the Cohen written up in the local BC Christian News recently as a convert to Christianity is now excommunicated and does not have aliyeh rights. His biology hasn't changed. These Jews for Jesus are Pro-Christ Jews by their self-description but they are rejected by the Anti-Christ Jews. This is because the teachings of Christ are regarded as BLASPHEMY by the Israeli Establishment. "God CANNOT be manifested in a human being" is the succint explanation I think. However, I have yet to encounter a rabbi on the Internet who could defend such a theology. If you find one put him on. FWP. On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, William Shannon wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- By: Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal, historian, journalist and lecturer, is a graduate of Cornell University and Columbia Law School. During the Second World War, he served with the US Army in the Middle East. He later served with the Department of State, and as a consultant to the American delegation at the organising meeting of the United Nations in San Francisco. Since 1947, he has been at the forefront in the struggle for a balanced US policy in the Middle East. He is the author of several acclaimed books on the Middle East, including The Zionist Connection. He now lives in Washington, DC. On December 18, 1993 Dr. Lilienthal celebrated both his 80th birthday and the 40th anniversary of his first book, What Price 'Israel'? Dr Lilienthal, who is a courageous anti-Zionist Jew, was joined by more than 200 guests who travelled from all over the United States to attend. The following excerpt is taken from this first book, What Price 'Israel'? Today, to trace anyone's descent to ancient Palestine would be a genealogical impossibility; and to presume, axiomatically, such a descent for Jews, alone among all human groups, is an assumption of purely fictional significance. Most everybody in the Western world could stake out some claim of Palestinian descent if genealogical records could be established for two-thousand years. And there are, indeed, people who, though not by the widest stretch of imagination Jewish, proudly make that very claim: some of the oldest of the South's aristocratic families play a game of comparing whose lineage goes farther back into 'Israel'. No one knows what happened to the Ten Lost Tribes of 'Israel', but to speculate on who might be who is a favored Anglo-Saxon pastime, and Queen Victoria belonged to an 'Israelite' Society that traced the ancestry of its membership back to those lost tribes. Twelve tribes started in Canaan about thirty-five centuries ago; and not only that ten of them disappeared - more than half of the members of the remaining two tribes never returned from their "exile" in Babylon. How then, can anybody claim to descend directly from that relatively small community which inhabited the Holy Land at the time of Abraham's Covenant with God? The Jewish racial myth flows from the fact that the words Hebrew, 'Israelite', Jew, Judaism, and the Jewish people have been used synonymously to suggest a historic continuity. But this is a misuse. These words refer to different groups of people with varying ways of life in different periods in history. Hebrew is a term correctly applied to the period from the beginning of Biblical history to the settling in Canaan. 'Israelite' refers correctly to the members of the twelve tribes of 'Israel'. The name Yehudi or Jew is used in the Old Testament to designate members of the tribe of Judah, descendants of the fourth son of Jacob, as well as to denote citizens of the Kingdom of Judah, particularly at the time of Jeremiah and under the Persian occupation. Centuries later, the same word came to be applied to anyone, no matter of what origin, whose religion was Judaism. The descriptive name Judaism was never heard by the Hebrews or 'Israelites'; it appears only with Christianity. Flavius Josephus was one of the first to use the name in his recital of the war with the Romans to connote a totality of beliefs, moral commandments, religious practices and ceremonial institutions of Galilee which he believed superior to rival Hellenism. When the word Judaism was born, there was no longer a Hebrew-'Israelite' state. The people who embraced the creed of Judaism were already mixed of many races and strains;
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- Franklin Wayne Poley wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- Maybe we should ask Khazar University (It has a web site). The "Law of Return" is one of the Constitutional documents of Israel. If I remember correctly it emphasizes (Anti-Christ) Jewish religion and not biological race. I think it says if you have a Jewish mother you are considered to be a Jew (one criterion) but only if you haven't converted to another religion. I suppose some world religions are exempt in practice but not Christianity. Thus the Cohen written up in the local BC Christian News recently as a convert to Christianity is now excommunicated and does not have aliyeh rights. His biology hasn't changed. These Jews for Jesus are Pro-Christ Jews by their self-description but they are rejected by the Anti-Christ Jews. This is because the teachings of Christ are regarded as BLASPHEMY by the Israeli Establishment. "God CANNOT be manifested in a human being" is the succint explanation I think. However, I have yet to encounter a rabbi on the Internet who could defend such a theology. If you find one put him on. FWP. On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, William Shannon wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- By: Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal, historian, journalist and lecturer, is a graduate of Cornell University and Columbia Law School. During the Second World War, he served with the US Army in the Middle East. He later served with the Department of State, and as a consultant to the American delegation at the organising meeting of the United Nations in San Francisco. Since 1947, he has been at the forefront in the struggle for a balanced US policy in the Middle East. He is the author of several acclaimed books on the Middle East, including The Zionist Connection. He now lives in Washington, DC. On December 18, 1993 Dr. Lilienthal celebrated both his 80th birthday and the 40th anniversary of his first book, What Price 'Israel'? Dr Lilienthal, who is a courageous anti-Zionist Jew, was joined by more than 200 guests who travelled from all over the United States to attend. The following excerpt is taken from this first book, What Price 'Israel'? Today, to trace anyone's descent to ancient Palestine would be a genealogical impossibility; and to presume, axiomatically, such a descent for Jews, alone among all human groups, is an assumption of purely fictional significance. Maybe in the middle of the last century the good Doctor's statement would have been correct. BUT NOT TODAY! Today, it has been done. Most everybody in the Western world could stake out some claim of Palestinian descent if genealogical records could be established for two-thousand years. And there are, indeed, people who, though not by the widest stretch of imagination Jewish, proudly make that very claim: some of the oldest of the South's aristocratic families play a game of comparing whose lineage goes farther back into 'Israel'. No one knows what happened to the Ten Lost Tribes of 'Israel', but to speculate on who might be who is a favored Anglo-Saxon pastime, and Queen Victoria belonged to an 'Israelite' Society that traced the ancestry of its membership back to those lost tribes. Twelve tribes started in Canaan about thirty-five centuries ago; and not only that ten of them disappeared - more than half of the members of the remaining two tribes never returned from their "exile" in Babylon. How then, can anybody claim to descend directly from that relatively small community which inhabited the Holy Land at the time of Abraham's Covenant with God? The Jewish racial myth flows from the fact that the words Hebrew, 'Israelite', Jew, Judaism, and the Jewish people have been used synonymously to suggest a historic continuity. But this is a misuse. These words refer to different groups of people with varying ways of life in different periods in history. Hebrew is a term correctly applied to the period from the beginning of Biblical history to the settling in Canaan. 'Israelite' refers correctly to the members of the twelve tribes of 'Israel'. The name Yehudi or Jew is used in the Old Testament to designate members of the tribe of Judah, descendants of the fourth son of Jacob, as well as to denote citizens of the Kingdom of Judah, particularly at the time of Jeremiah and under the Persian occupation. Centuries later, the same word came to be applied to anyone, no matter of what origin, whose religion was Judaism. The descriptive name Judaism was never heard by the Hebrews or 'Israelites'; it appears only with Christianity. Flavius Josephus was one of the first to use the name in his recital of the war with the Romans to connote a totality of
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Nurev Ind Research wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- Franklin Wayne Poley wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- Maybe we should ask Khazar University (It has a web site). The "Law of Return" is one of the Constitutional documents of Israel. If I remember correctly it emphasizes (Anti-Christ) Jewish religion and not biological race. I think it says if you have a Jewish mother you are considered to be a Jew (one criterion) but only if you haven't converted to another religion. I suppose some world religions are exempt in practice but not Christianity. Thus the Cohen written up in the local BC Christian News recently as a convert to Christianity is now excommunicated and does not have aliyeh rights. His biology hasn't changed. These Jews for Jesus are Pro-Christ Jews by their self-description but they are rejected by the Anti-Christ Jews. This is because the teachings of Christ are regarded as BLASPHEMY by the Israeli Establishment. "God CANNOT be manifested in a human being" is the succint explanation I think. However, I have yet to encounter a rabbi on the Internet who could defend such a theology. If you find one put him on. FWP. On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, William Shannon wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- By: Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal, historian, journalist and lecturer, is a graduate of Cornell University and Columbia Law School. During the Second World War, he served with the US Army in the Middle East. He later served with the Department of State, and as a consultant to the American delegation at the organising meeting of the United Nations in San Francisco. Since 1947, he has been at the forefront in the struggle for a balanced US policy in the Middle East. He is the author of several acclaimed books on the Middle East, including The Zionist Connection. He now lives in Washington, DC. On December 18, 1993 Dr. Lilienthal celebrated both his 80th birthday and the 40th anniversary of his first book, What Price 'Israel'? Dr Lilienthal, who is a courageous anti-Zionist Jew, was joined by more than 200 guests who travelled from all over the United States to attend. The following excerpt is taken from this first book, What Price 'Israel'? Today, to trace anyone's descent to ancient Palestine would be a genealogical impossibility; and to presume, axiomatically, such a descent for Jews, alone among all human groups, is an assumption of purely fictional significance. Maybe in the middle of the last century the good Doctor's statement would have been correct. BUT NOT TODAY! Today, it has been done. What has been done? What is the evidence for biological lineage between Israel today and Ancient Israel? FWP. Most everybody in the Western world could stake out some claim of Palestinian descent if genealogical records could be established for two-thousand years. And there are, indeed, people who, though not by the widest stretch of imagination Jewish, proudly make that very claim: some of the oldest of the South's aristocratic families play a game of comparing whose lineage goes farther back into 'Israel'. No one knows what happened to the Ten Lost Tribes of 'Israel', but to speculate on who might be who is a favored Anglo-Saxon pastime, and Queen Victoria belonged to an 'Israelite' Society that traced the ancestry of its membership back to those lost tribes. Twelve tribes started in Canaan about thirty-five centuries ago; and not only that ten of them disappeared - more than half of the members of the remaining two tribes never returned from their "exile" in Babylon. How then, can anybody claim to descend directly from that relatively small community which inhabited the Holy Land at the time of Abraham's Covenant with God? The Jewish racial myth flows from the fact that the words Hebrew, 'Israelite', Jew, Judaism, and the Jewish people have been used synonymously to suggest a historic continuity. But this is a misuse. These words refer to different groups of people with varying ways of life in different periods in history. Hebrew is a term correctly applied to the period from the beginning of Biblical history to the settling in Canaan. 'Israelite' refers correctly to the members of the twelve tribes of 'Israel'. The name Yehudi or Jew is used in the Old Testament to designate members of the tribe of Judah, descendants of the fourth son of Jacob, as well as to denote citizens of the Kingdom of Judah, particularly at the time of Jeremiah and under the Persian occupation. Centuries later, the same word came to be applied
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: What has been done? What is the evidence for biological lineage between Israel today and Ancient Israel? DNA testing on Cohanim has established three clear markers. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soap-boxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- In a message dated 3/10/00 7:37:36 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DNA testing on Cohanim has established three clear markers. Do tell Nessie! A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soap-boxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- Franklin Wayne Poley wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- Maybe we should ask Khazar University (It has a web site). The "Law of Return" is one of the Constitutional documents of Israel. If I remember correctly it emphasizes (Anti-Christ) Jewish religion and not biological race. I think it says if you have a Jewish mother you are considered to be a Jew (one criterion) but only if you haven't converted to another religion. This is right. So far so good Poley. I suppose some world religions are exempt in practice but not Christianity. Ah, this is the Poley I know and love. WRONG. Thus the Cohen written up in the local BC Christian News recently as a convert to Christianity is now excommunicated and does not have aliyeh rights. His biology hasn't changed. But he is no longer a Jew is he ? The right of return is only for Jews in the Jewish State. This isn't too difficult to comprehend is it? These Jews for Jesus are Pro-Christ Jews by their self-description but they are rejected by the Anti-Christ Jews. Jews for Jesus ARE NOT JEWS. They are Christians by definition. They believe that Jesus is god. This is ONLY a Christian belief. This is because the teachings of Christ are regarded as BLASPHEMY by the Israeli Establishment. Ah, now we get into Poleyisms. Fasten your seat belts we are leaving reality. The Israeli Establishment is non religious and doesn't give a shit about the teachings of Christ. They do however fund and execute many archaeological projects and studies which focus on first century Jewish history in Judea and especially around Jerusalem. They are particularly interested in a group of revolutionary Jews known as The Poor. This group was headed by a devout Jewish leader named Yeshua who was crucified by the Romans for insurrection. After his death, the movement was led by his brother James, and his chief disciple " Peter " who was a known revolutionary. "God CANNOT be manifested in a human being" is the succint explanation I think. That is correct. It's called idolatry and is forbidden by Jewish and Muslim law. However, I have yet to encounter a rabbi on the Internet who could defend such a theology. It is what it is and doesn't need to be defended. Deification of humans is purely pagan. Paul of Tarsus deified his version of Jesus for the pagans so that they could worship something "new" but still within a context which they understood. Hence the Jewish Jesus became the pagan Christ, a human deity. If you find one put him on. FWP. Here I am baby. " Rabbi " J2 On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, William Shannon wrote: -Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- By: Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal, historian, journalist and lecturer, is a graduate of Cornell University and Columbia Law School. During the Second World War, he served with the US Army in the Middle East. He later served with the Department of State, and as a consultant to the American delegation at the organising meeting of the United Nations in San Francisco. Since 1947, he has been at the forefront in the struggle for a balanced US policy in the Middle East. He is the author of several acclaimed books on the Middle East, including The Zionist Connection. He now lives in Washington, DC. On December 18, 1993 Dr. Lilienthal celebrated both his 80th birthday and the 40th anniversary of his first book, What Price 'Israel'? Dr Lilienthal, who is a courageous anti-Zionist Jew, was joined by more than 200 guests who travelled from all over the United States to attend. The following excerpt is taken from this first book, What Price 'Israel'? Today, to trace anyone's descent to ancient Palestine would be a genealogical impossibility; and to presume, axiomatically, such a descent for Jews, alone among all human groups, is an assumption of purely fictional significance. Maybe in the middle of the last century the good Doctor's statement would have been correct. BUT NOT TODAY! Today, it has been done. Most everybody in the Western world could stake out some claim of Palestinian descent if genealogical records could be established for two-thousand years. Genealogical records have been established for the past 2000 years through the tracing of the " Cohen " gene. So far only three groups trace back to that time and that place. Pay attention now so that this finally sinks in. a) The Ashkenazi Jews of Europe. b) The Sephardi Jews of Southern Europe, the Mideast, and South America. and...Get ready for this one. c) A sect of Black African Jews of Zimbabwe And there are, indeed, people who, though not by the widest stretch of imagination Jewish, proudly make that very claim: some of the oldest of the South's aristocratic families play a game of
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: Do tell Nessie! At least that's what the Nova show said. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soap-boxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/" /A -Cui Bono?- By: Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal, historian, journalist and lecturer, is a graduate of Cornell University and Columbia Law School. During the Second World War, he served with the US Army in the Middle East. He later served with the Department of State, and as a consultant to the American delegation at the organising meeting of the United Nations in San Francisco. Since 1947, he has been at the forefront in the struggle for a balanced US policy in the Middle East. He is the author of several acclaimed books on the Middle East, including The Zionist Connection. He now lives in Washington, DC. On December 18, 1993 Dr. Lilienthal celebrated both his 80th birthday and the 40th anniversary of his first book, What Price 'Israel'? Dr Lilienthal, who is a courageous anti-Zionist Jew, was joined by more than 200 guests who travelled from all over the United States to attend. The following excerpt is taken from this first book, What Price 'Israel'? Today, to trace anyone's descent to ancient Palestine would be a genealogical impossibility; and to presume, axiomatically, such a descent for Jews, alone among all human groups, is an assumption of purely fictional significance. Most everybody in the Western world could stake out some claim of Palestinian descent if genealogical records could be established for two-thousand years. And there are, indeed, people who, though not by the widest stretch of imagination Jewish, proudly make that very claim: some of the oldest of the South's aristocratic families play a game of comparing whose lineage goes farther back into 'Israel'. No one knows what happened to the Ten Lost Tribes of 'Israel', but to speculate on who might be who is a favored Anglo-Saxon pastime, and Queen Victoria belonged to an 'Israelite' Society that traced the ancestry of its membership back to those lost tribes. Twelve tribes started in Canaan about thirty-five centuries ago; and not only that ten of them disappeared - more than half of the members of the remaining two tribes never returned from their "exile" in Babylon. How then, can anybody claim to descend directly from that relatively small community which inhabited the Holy Land at the time of Abraham's Covenant with God? The Jewish racial myth flows from the fact that the words Hebrew, 'Israelite', Jew, Judaism, and the Jewish people have been used synonymously to suggest a historic continuity. But this is a misuse. These words refer to different groups of people with varying ways of life in different periods in history. Hebrew is a term correctly applied to the period from the beginning of Biblical history to the settling in Canaan. 'Israelite' refers correctly to the members of the twelve tribes of 'Israel'. The name Yehudi or Jew is used in the Old Testament to designate members of the tribe of Judah, descendants of the fourth son of Jacob, as well as to denote citizens of the Kingdom of Judah, particularly at the time of Jeremiah and under the Persian occupation. Centuries later, the same word came to be applied to anyone, no matter of what origin, whose religion was Judaism. The descriptive name Judaism was never heard by the Hebrews or 'Israelites'; it appears only with Christianity. Flavius Josephus was one of the first to use the name in his recital of the war with the Romans to connote a totality of beliefs, moral commandments, religious practices and ceremonial institutions of Galilee which he believed superior to rival Hellenism. When the word Judaism was born, there was no longer a Hebrew-'Israelite' state. The people who embraced the creed of Judaism were already mixed of many races and strains; and this diversification was rapidly growing... Perhaps the most significant mass conversion to the Judaic faith occurred in Europe, in the 8th century A.D., and that story of the Khazars (Turko-Finnish people) is quite pertinent to the establishment of the modern State of 'Israel'. This partly nomadic people, probably related to the Volga Bulgars, first appeared in Trans-Caucasia in the second century. They settled in what is now Southern Russia, between the Volga and the Don, and then spread to the shores of the Black, Caspian and Azov seas. The Kingdom of Khazaria, ruled by a khagan or khakan fell to Attila the Hun in 448, and to the Muslims in 737. In between, the Khazars ruled over part of the Bulgarians, conquered the Crimea, and stretched their kingdom over the Caucasus farther to the northwest to include Kiev, and eastwards to Derbend. Annual tributes were levied on the Russian Slavonians of Kiev. The city of Kiev was probably built by the Khazars. There were Jews in the city and the surrounding area before the Russian Empire was founded by the Varangians whom the Scandinavian warriors sometimes called the Russ or Ross (circa 855-863). The influence of the Khazars
[CTRL] re Khazars.
-Cavet Lector- A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A -Cui Bono- -- Forwarded message -- Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 13:24:50 -0800 (PST) From: Franklin Wayne Poley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Doron Tal [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: BOB ZIMMERMEN [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tom Rush [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LIFE-GAZETTE] Re: M A L A Y S I A 'S M U D D L I N G ...Treatment of Minorities in Theocratic Countries. From: Franklin Wayne Poley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Shalom: What can I say except that through 5 years of correspondence by Internet I have known Doron as a "gentleman and a scholar" so let's take it from there. Also refer to http://www.vcn.bc.ca/The-Question-Nobody-Will-Answer.htm That question nobody will answer was the "banner" in every issue of Life Gazette when it was published in tabloid format in the late 80's and early 90's. It was phrased in those Life-Gazettes as the Preamble to the Canadian Constitution, "Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God". MP's Boudria and Mills have expressed an explicit interest in the definition of a "Godly Society" vs. a "Godless Society" for Canada. Mr. Boudria said we should ask the clergy and religion experts. On Mon, 10 Jan 2000, Doron Tal wrote: Ref. is made to http://members.tripod.co.uk/Malaysia_Muddling/index.html Dear Bob, With all the respect to "us" 'THE JEWS' who (as you claim) 'ARE GOD CHOSEN PEOPLE PERIOD' [sic] That statement may get some peoples' ire up but I think it is an assertion of "IDENTITY" as the British Israel Christians call it. Right or wrong it is forthright and a challenge to all. Don't Muslims and Christians also believe they are God's Chosen People? What then is "Culture X" for any one of these groups or others? we are not the kings of this world! Interesting...sounds like what Jesus Christ, "King of the Jews" said 2,000 years ago. Last year a "Judge Cohen" (retired), Supreme Court of Israel, said the trial of Jesus was a mis-trial. Alright then, how about a kind of retrial from Scripture and other historical evidence? I have been on L-Torah for several years and I still haven't heard one violation of the Torah which anyone can reasonably attach to Jesus Christ. And the Traditional Jewish Prayer Book says "Judaism has never called for an unreasoned faith". The Holy Koran tells us Jesus was born of a virgin, purged of vanity and wickedness and ascended to Heaven. No violation of the Torah in that. Indeed and unfortunately more than a few of "us" do abuse others, exploiting for vain the name of THY LORD. It's an undeniable fact that some Orthodox Rabbis in Israel do abuse the name of THY LORD for vain, in an attempt to rule others! :( It is to say that am unhappy to deal with those who are against anyone because of one's origin, belief or disbelief. What then do you say of the Sapidi family who are being sent back to Israel from Vancouver this week? They found their way to Pentecostal Christianity from Judaism and are afraid of persecution in Israel. The daughter was born in Canada and so their appeal will be heard in 6 months time. The Sapidis are, I expect, reasonable people. Can you get them on Internet, Doron, to make their case? You are right! I have NOT spend enough time at your site examining those articles, because from the very beggining I felt it wasn't worth due to the published citiation you bring. . . You may want to rewrite the openning of your outstanding web-site to make it clearer, unless you wish those Moslems to enter the "trap" ;-) Shalom from Israel, Doron http://www.geocities.com/~stop_abuse --- BOB ZIMMERMEN wrote: --Original Message-- From: Doron Tal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: January 9, 2000 5:28:45 PM GMT Subject: M A L A Y S I A 'S M U D D L I N G Dear Bob, I would have invested in Malaysia, but only because you are hate mongering by citing: "And incidentally we are Moslems and the Jews are not happy to see the Moslems progress" Well, let's look at it this way. What chance do Christians and Muslims have to progress in Israel? What chance do the Sapidis now have? I would never do so! Doron _ Dear Doron I was saddened by your feedback. I think you have had misunderstood me. Cos' you may not have spend enough time at the site examining those articles and link I have gathered. Fact is I'm proud of the fact that my Bible tells me that the Jews are God chosen people. Hence being part of the gentiles who are saved in the kingdom of God through Christ Jesus, I'm extremely unhappy with the prime minister of Malaysia, Dr.Mahathir for
[CTRL] [Fwd: Khazars-3]
-Caveat Lector- Original Message Subject: Khazars-3 Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 23:49:03 +0200 From: yair davidi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Physical Appearance of the Khazars. Three different types of Khazar are described by Arab writers who apparently through trade and diplomacy had had direct contact with them. The Arab Geographer Istakhri (Koestler p.20) said: "The Khazars do not resemble the Turks. They are black-haired and of two kinds, one called the Kara [i.e. "Black"] - Khazars who are swarthy verging on deep black as if they were a kind of Hindu, and a white kind [Ak-Khazars], who are strikingly handsome". Note the above description says that both kinds of Khazars had black hair though regarding countenance, etc. one was white and the other very dark. There were other Khazars who were blond or red-heared: Al Maghribi said: "As to the Khazars, they are to the north of the inhabited earth towards the 7th clime, having over their heads the constellation of the plough. Their land is cold and wet, their eyes blue, their hair flowing and predominantly reddish, their bodies large and their natures cold. Their general aspect is wild". Al-Maghribi is here apparently speaking of another section of the Khazars who lived more to the north. These had "predominantly reddish" hair and blue eyes. It was remarked above that the Khazar White Ugrians were described by the Chinese as red-haired, pale-skinned, and green-eyed. The Alans who were closely associated with the Khazars were described by the Roman historian Ammianus Marcelinus as being blonde-haired like all the Scythians according to him. Ammianus includes the Agathysoi (Khazars) amongst the Alans. From the above it follows that different Khazar and Khazar-linked groups were of different types. The Khazars and Israel. One version of the letter of King Joseph quoted above said that the Khazars had a tradition that they were descended from the Tribe of Simeon. Eldad HaDani (ca.850 c.e.) wrote that they came from Simeon and Menasseh. The Cochin Scroll also says that the Khazars were descended from Simeon and Menasseh. The Khazars are identical with The Red Jews. The Lost Ten Tribes were called "Red Jews" and were described as all having Red Hair. Red Hair in the Middle Ages especially in Germany was considered a negative characteristic and associated with the Jews and with Judas. The Anti-Christ and Judas were depicted as both having red hair and as both coming from the Tribe of Dan. In the whole literature of the Jews in the Medieval Period and in that of the Gentiles the Red Jews were identified as descended from the Lost Tribes of Israel. There are also Jewish legal rabbinical Responsa in which the Khazars are identified as originally of Israelite descent. At the peak of their history the Khazars controlled the area of the Don and Danaper Rivers and these rivers were referred to in Khazar times as "Sambation" and as "River of Sabt (i.e. "Shabat") and in Jewish legend both terms are connected with the Lost Ten Tribes. The Khazars had emerged from areas to which the Lost Ten Tribes were exiled or had moved to after their exile. The Khazars were related to other groups for whom independent proofs show an Israelite origin and so what is pertinent to them is pertinent also to the Khazars and vice-versa. The Khazars were linked especially with the Tribes of Simeon and Menasseh. They were identical with the Agathyrsi-proper who derived from the Clan of "Jeezer" son of Gilead son of Menasseh (Numbers 26;30). The name transliterated as "Jeezer" ((àéòæø in Hebrew was probably pronounceable as "Ay-(g)a-zar" and the Agathyrsi were also known as "Acatzari", Khazari, and Gazari. Those of the Agathyrsi (Acatzari) who remained in Scythia eventually formed the nucleus of the Khazar nation and a tradition exists (related by Eldad HaDani in ca.800 c.e. and by the Cochin Scroll) that the Khazars came from the Tribes of Simeon and Menasseh. The Picts of Scotland also came from the Agathyrsi. Amongst the pre-christian Picts and Scottish existed a taboo on pig meat and on other unclean animals prohibited by the Mosaic code (MacKenzie). Later in christian times the idea existed that "Jews" or a "Type of Jew" had settled in Scotland. Similarly the Khazars before their conversion had had some kind of notion that they were of Israelite descent and had had some exposure to Mosaic lore65. The "Jeezer" (i.e. "Ay-g-azar" of Gilead) origin of the Picts is consistent with the neighbouring Caledonians (with whom the Picts united) being also descended from Gilead and the very name Caledonian is derived from Gilead. Elements (such as those of Gilead) connected with Menasseh dominated Scotland and the west of Britain and from these areas later came an overwhelming proportion of the early British settlers of North America in its formative period. The 2nd edition of "The Tribes" is now available. This work contains
[CTRL] [Fwd: Khazars-2]
-Caveat Lector- Original Message Subject: Khazars-2 Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 00:05:28 +0200 From: yair davidi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Khazars Convert To Judaism. According to the Russian-Jewish scholar, Abraham Harcavy (Vilna, 1867) the Khazars converted to Judaism in about 620 c.e. Other authorities put this event more than a hundred years later. The conversion at first was more or less a secret and was confined to the king and his co-ruling associate prince and to the inner aristocracy. Later most of the Khazars-proper appear to have converted along with some of the Alans and some of the other subject peoples most of whom however remained pagan, christian, or moslem. The conversion was also done in stages (Polak).. At first they accepted a kind of monotheism with Hebraic-type ceremonies which perhaps in principle is paralleled by the modern Noachide movement (?). Later they accepted full-fledged Rabbinical Orthodoxy. The first Khazar king to accept Judaism was named Bulan whose name means "unicorn" or "elk" (Altheim, GDH vol.1 p.239). The unicorn was an emblem known from the Sakae region east of the Caspian Sea. It is also a symbol of Menasseh. The conversion of the Khazars to Judaism was preceded by a Disputation amongst members of different religions. The Jewish poet and philosopher Yehuda HaLevi (1074-1141), in Spain, wrote a Classical work in defence of Judaism using this Disputation as a framework. The book is called "The Kuzari". The Khazars at one stage may have held some type of suzerainty over what is now Hungary, Poland, and Austria. The Khazars and The Vikings. Around the 700s Viking "Varangians" began to penetrate the interior of Russia. The Varangians were mainly Swedish though the term (in Russian Chronicles) could also be used to encompass anybody from Scandinavia as well as Englishman (E.B. 1955, "Russia", Vernadsky). Varangians were confederated with the Khazars and were the Khazar entity referred to as the Varach'an (Warathan) Huns. The Varangians were variously also referred to as "Varegos", "Barragos", and "Variag" (Polak p.187, Koestler p.147, Minorsky p.432). Their name is derived from the Hebrew "Beriah" [pronounceable as "Veri-a-g"] which name was given to a son of Asher (Genesis 46;17), a son of Ephraim (1-Chronicles 7;23), and a son of Benjamin (1-Chronicles 8;16). In ca.800 c.e. a group of Varangians appeared at the Byzantium court. They called their king "Chakan" which title is considered to have been that of the King of Khazaria (Vernadsky, "The Origins of Russia", p.244ff). The title "Chakan" or "Cagan" was originally the Hebrew "COHEN" and means "priest" or "officiate". More information concerning the Khazars comes from a letter sent some time between 954-961 to Ibn Hasdai who was the Jewish physician and foreign minister to the muslim king of Cordoba in Spain. The letter is from a King Joseph of Khazaria. There are two versions of this letter but both contain important information from early sources. From the letter(s) we learn that: King Joseph was the 13th king of Khazaria; Previously, in the time of the 11th monarch, King Benjamin, all the surrounding kings had been at war against the Khazars except for the King of the Cossacks and the King of the Alans. By "King of the Cossacks" the Don Cossacks are intended. The Don Cossacks were a mixed people amongst whom in historical times were families who practised Judaic customs and some who converted to Judaism. These individuals had the notion that they were descended from Dan son of Israel after whom the Don River was named . The Alans were a people who had lived to the north of the Caspian Sea then moved to the Caucasus area and north of it. Previously in the time of Attilla and before then (i.e. in the 400s c.e.) a section of the Alans had gone westward. They settled in areas of Gaul especially in Brittany and influenced Norman military tactics (Bachrach). There were also Alans amongst the Allemans in Alsace and in Suebia. In addition, the name "Alan" is found in Scotland both as a personal names and as the name of a Tribe in the north. In "The Tribes" the Alans are traced to Elon son of Zebulon. The letter continues to relate that the Alan monarch marched against the enemies of the Khazars and routed them. The King of the Alans had rendered assistance since "some of them observed the Torah of the Jews". King Joseph himself was married to a daughter of the Alan ruler. Bar Hebraeus had reported that the Khazars came from the east and settled in "the country of the Alans now called Barsalia" meaning an area on the northern shores of the Black Sea. The Khazars proper were a small group who obtained a loose uncertain control over many other nations. The Khazar power was probably always in frequent fluctuation. The Varangians established themselves in and around Kiev where they ruled over the natives. They local
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-Caveat Lector- Original Message Subject: Khazars-1 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 03:58:10 +0200 From: yair davidi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This articles is in 3 parts. It is mainly a reprint from the 2nd issue of Tribesman. Many of you have seen most of it before. It is being sent out due to requests. I have more information on the subject which I hope to process after Succoth. The articles is about the Khazars which is interesting in its own right but it also contains information concerning the Israselite origins of certain European peoples. Following this article will follow a number of postings briefly tracing Israelite groups from Scythia to western Europe. These postings will also contain information concerning the Israelite origins of western peoples. THE KHAZARS: SOME NOTES FOR FURTHER STUDY. The Khazars were a small but powerful people who once ruled over portions of Russia and eastern Europe. They (or at least many of their leaders) converted to Judaism, were eventually defeated and disappeared. Their descendants were either assimilated amongst the Jews or became Sabbath-keeping and other "divergent" christians many (if not most) of whom in some way or other migrated to the west and to North America. Other descendants of the Khazars may be scattered throughout the former area of the U.S.S.R. and in different parts of Europe. THE NUMBERS OF THE KHAZARS WERE NOT GREAT. AN ESTIMATE SAYS THAT THEY NUMBERED ABOUT 50,000. It may have been more but it could not have been excessively so. A knowledge of the Khazars is useful for several reasons. Evidence exists that the Khazars were descended from the Lost Tribes of Israel. There is also proof that they were related to peoples in northwest Europe. It follows that evidence connecting northwest Europeans to Israel is strengthened when cognizance is taken of the Israelite ancestry of their Khazar brothers. The Khazars and Anti-Semites. Another reason for studying the Khazars is that anti-Semites and some assimilationist Jews claim that the present-day Jews came from the Khazars who they assume were non-Israelite. Anti-Semites use their notion of the Khazars to allege that the Jews are impostors and not true descendants of Israel. Some "Identity" groups also make this allegation. So do the Arabs and some Negro anti-Semites. In the past some assimilationist Jews used the Khazar idea to claim that since their ancestors were not in Judah at a certain time therefore they were not culpable for whatever the Jews may or may not have done to the christian messiah. There is also an ideaological component some people wanting to present Judaism as a religion (more than an hereditary group) and the Khazars as non-Jewish converts emphasizing the fact that Judaism is open to all. KOESTLER There was a writer named Arthur Koestler who thought that by showing the Jews to be descended from the Khazars the Gentiles would stop hating the Jews since the Khazars were not in Palestine when Jesus was there. Koestler read the sources but chose to emphasize those that were in line with his goal and even these were not so convincing. Even so the book of Koestler (The Thirteenth Tribe) became a best seller and a favorite with anti-semites. The book itself does not really prove anything but anti-semites love it since it purports to show that the Jews are not really the chosen people and this is therefore another reason to hate them. Koestler did not believe in the Bible so he dismissed legends that the Khazars were descended from the Lost Tribes as fantasies. He was an atheist socialist or agnostic so any other "rational" simplistic explanation was preferable to him and to his idealogical goal. Kostler should have realized that: There are some types who will hate Jews no matter what. Some who will always be sympathetic. Some inbetween who can swing either way. Even though some of the most vicious haters of the Jewish people have been Christians so too most of the few friends and allies the Jews have had have been those who believe in the Bible -whether Christian or not. The background for some of the ideas about the Khazars also concerns the Karaites of Russia. The Khazars and Karaites. The Khazars ruled over many peoples some of whom were also influenced by Hebraising tendencies. In Judaism at that time there were two main streams. There were Rabbinical Jews who parallel the Orthodox Jews of today. They believed in the Bible and in its interpretation according to oral tradition. They were homogeneous (and still are) and consistent in their basic beliefs and practices. They usually managed to reach a consensus regarding the practical application of Biblical injunctions. Another group were the Karaites who claimed to believe only in Scripture. The Karaites, however, were actually eclectic and widely divergent amongst themselves in their interpretation of Scripture. The Karaite movement in the modern
Re: [CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- Here is a discussion between various geneticists on the gentic history of the Jews. Gentically, various dispersed groups have more in common than with their gentile hosts. Thus unless the Khazars were one of the lost tribes(no impossible), the Jews are descendents of the biblical people, predominantly. Ironically the same gentic tests also prove that the Jews are not predominantly semites, but are more closely related to the armenians.(remember that the middle east was a melting pot of various peoples. Abrahams was from as mentioned in the bible came from near the caucus mountains and the gentic ancestry also fits that pattern. John Ken, Thanks for the note. My problem is that I'm not an expert in the area, so have to rely on the experts. Of course one cannot do this mindlessly, and must pay attention to the methodological debates. As I see it, the Cavalli school holds the high ground, at least for the time being. Also, as you conclude in your note, selection and drift are probable factors. The point is that when these are taken into account, not much room is left for interbreeding. What is interesting with MacDonald's account is that it is actually compatible with a degree of exogamy. His model has a strong contingent element and it is an empirical question how much interbreeding took place in each area. Frank Thanks for the informative posting. I am short-term in the midst of something else, but I hope to have time to read the sources you provide. My only initial reactions are 1) I hesitate to dismiss ABO frequencies across the board as "selectively determined" when so many potential selective pressures have been purported to act upon the system and none are or have been global (or even pan-Old World) in scope; 2) a very sound explanation for the cline seen in the E=W gradient in the B allele remains the degree of Mongol "penetration" of the local gene pools; 3) the movement of genes, memes, etc from NE Africa to the Middle East is well attested archaeologically and skeletally during the Neolithic and early Bronze periods at a time not too long prior to the establishment of the hierarchical and competing later Bronze/Iron Age systems in the Middle East; so that 4) any greater genetic clustering of Jews (some exceptions noted) with "Europeans", seems counterintuitive given the probable genetic origin of the Middle Eastern populations from which they derive. This clustering with European must then come from selection, drift or interbreeding. But you've given me food for thought. Thanks again -Ken Frank Salter wrote: Frank Salter here. I'm working on the concept of ethnicity, and recently reviewed the evidence of Jewish genetic identity. The literature I found (it might not be exhaustive) strongly supports Kevin MacDonald's view that traditional Judaism is a cultural group strategy that has resulted in the fairly rigorous genetic segregation of its members. I began my review with the debate triggered by Morton et al.'s (1982) target paper. Morton et al.'s results indicated a considerable amount of admixture in Jewish populations. Their most effective critic was Cavalli-Sforza, who pointed out their fundamental methodological error of relying on alleles subject to selection pressure. Here is the relevant part of the review: In his commentary on Morton et al., Cavalli-Sforza (1982) criticized their methods, arguing that they had not distinguished between genetic markers that are selectively neutral and those that come under selection pressure. In the latter case, gene frequencies of quite diverse populations living under the same climatic or disease conditions will rapidly converge in the absence of admixture. For example, in testing the possibility of admixture for Ashkenazim Jews, Cavalli-Sforza and Carmelli (1979; supplementing Carmelli and Cavalli-Sforza 1979) found that one marker (the HLA loci) indicated no admixture with Europeans, while another (the ABO loci) indicated almost 100 per cent admixture. This indicates rapid selection for ABO and its unsuitability for tests of admixture. Yet Morton et al. included the ABO data in their analysis. Cavalli-Sforza's (1982) summary of his research with Carmelli thus appears to be the most authoritative: (a) Genetic analysis discriminates "reasonably well" between Gentile Central Europeans, Southern Europeans, North Africans, and Middle Eastern populations; (b) With regard to Jews historically inhabiting any of these regions "their genetic markers are more similar to those of the population whose origins they shared more than 2,000 years ago than to those with which they have been in contact since"; (c) that some Jewish populations, in particular the Ashkenazim of Central Europe, show important similarities with their Gentile neighbours, due to admixture, natural selection, or both; and (d) Despite Middle Eastern origins being "at
[CTRL] The Khazars
-Caveat Lector- from: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/Khazars.html A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/Khazars.html"The Khazars/A - DID MODERN JEWS DESCEND FROM KHAZARS? Many anti-Semites complain that modern Jews are not the Biblical Jews but are descended from the Khazars. The Khazars converted to Judaism and thus modern day Jews, it is claimed, are imposters who have no claim on the Land of Israel, Eretz Yisrael. This claim will be discussed in the following sections. It is also interesting to note that the same anti-Semites who complain about the alleged contents of the Talmud, which was completed no later than 500 C.E. also claim that the Jews of today are "self-styled Jews" descended from the Khazars who converted to Judaism in 740 C.E. Some even claim that the "true" descendants of the Biblical Jews are the modern day "Aryans". So according to this "logic" the Talmud which they complain about would actually be an "Aryan" book and not that of the modern Jews! Its difficult to see how they can reconcile these two seemingly contradictory positions. David S. Maddison([EMAIL PROTECTED]) RESPONSE (1) THE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Jewish Filth Taking Over the World Date: 7 Aug 1998 01:51:14 GMT Message-ID: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) As for Ashkenazim being Khazars, for one thing there were Jews on the Rhine (who came with the Romans) long before there was a Khazaria and even before many Germanic tribes settled there. In fact, the word Ashkenaz means Germany in Hebrew. Second, even if a group of Khazars abandoned their own homeland and adopted Jewish peoplehood by conversion it still doesn't negate their right to the land of Israel. Even Moses's wives weren't born Hebrews and Ruth the Moabitess was a convert (see Book of Ruth). Unlike the Germans, membership in the Jewish peoplehood is not based soley on blood. RESPONSE (2) DESCENDED FROM KHAZARS? The following article addresses the issues of the Khazars with reference to a particular anti-Semitic film where the same claim is made. From "The Other Israel - Is it Really Accurate", 1990 Dennis Green, Stuart Hayward, Phillip Woodfield Opposition to Anti-Semitism, Incorporated, Christchurch, New Zealand. In the film, Ted Pike makes the assertion (as have most anti-Semitic groups, including the Nazis) that the Jews of European origin, the "Askhenazim" (who comprise almost 80% of today's Jewry), are actually descended from a medieval people called the Khazars, who converted to Judaism in the 8th century. The logic of the argument goes something like this; if 80% of all the Jews in tile world are not really Jews, then, firstly, these Jews have absolutely no claim, biblical or otherwise, to the Land of Israel. Secondly, these Jews are in no way the people of God, and thus, have no place in the promises or plans of God. Thirdly, if the vast majority of present-day Jews are not Jews (therefore, not Semitic) at all, then it cannot be considered "anti-Semitic" to oppose them. Pike states that 'Today, the Askhenazim, or Khazars, form the majority, Around 80 %, of those who call themselves Jews." He claims that the Mongols drove the Khazar-jews into Germany, Poland and Russia in the 13th century, and that these, not "real" Jews, are the people who now make up most of the population of Israel. Quite simply, this is not true, as the basic analysis below will show. The Khazars were a confederation of Turkish tribes who established a major commercial empire in the second half of the 6th century. As a trading nation, they were faced with a dilemma; tile Christians would not trade freely with Muslim nations, and the Muslim nations would not trade freely with the Christian nations. The Khazars did not want to be recognized as being more partial to one faith than the other. Therefore, around 740 C.E., King Bulan adopted Judaism, and thus, as a "neutral" people, the Khazars could trade more freely with both the Christian and Muslim nations that bordered Khazaria. It should be noted, however, that it was only the "ruling class" that adopted Judaism, not the general Khazar population, as Ted Pike and the other anti-Semites claim (1). These Khazar-Jews had little, if any, contact with the central Jewish organisation in Iraq, or with the Jews who still lived in Palestine (as the Romans had renamed the province of Judea in 135 C.E.). These Khazar-jews had, in fact, closer links with the (Christian) Byzantine Empire, as can been seen by the fact that several Byzantine emperors, including Justinian II (704) and Constantine V (732), had Khazarian wives. By the 10th century the Khazar empire, faced with the growing strength of the Pechenegs to their north and west, and of the Russians around Kiev, suffered a decline. Khazar power was crushed in 965 when the ruler of Kiev, Svyatoslav, launched a harsh military campaign against them. Many Khazars, including some of those who had converted to Judaism, moved
