CS: Misc-Nelson
From: Vic Roberts, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Nelson is there - I would say Nelson was responsible for more death and >depravity than many others - and I'm just talking about the British sailors >who were on his ships. Its OK to have statues honoring warmongers (OK - a >product of his time but a warmonger all the same) but not someone who wrote >quite a few good tunes and certainly enlightened more lives that Nelson >ever did and will do? snip I'm all for people having the right to their opinion, and am prepared to defend that right with my life Etc.. but your remarks about one of this country's greatest hero's is pushing it a bit! -- Vic Roberts Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-checks and balances
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] The vast majority of 'Joe Public' I have spoken to don't feel it was a travesty. The majority won. We lost. --and-- No legal system is perfect, all pretty crappy. I've never met anyone, from anywhere in the world, who liked their political system. [...] Well, Paul, I think that you owe it to yourself, and the rest of your fellow citizens to first understand that none of you voted for anything. Was there in fact a plebiscite placed before all of the people, asking them to vote on the issue? You deceive yourself when you believe that just any aspect of your liberty can be voted on. How many more aspects of your liberty will you just let slip away by a 'majority' vote? Will you just keep rolling over until your own life at stake? What will you resort to then? And, you are certainly correct in you last statement above, in regards government: some people can never have enough control, while the rest of us just want the control freaks to just plain bug-off. The happy medium - if there is such a thing, happens when the laws of land have everything to with protecting and promoting liberty, and nothing to do with denigrating any aspect of it, in the name of safety, or security, or necessity. That is what you should be 'shooting' for, pun intended. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Who to Vote For??
From: "Tom Charnock", [EMAIL PROTECTED] But after carefully selecting the local guy, who shows the best signs of supporting shooting, along comes the Party Machinery" They then end up voting as a block, see the Fox Hunting Bill. None of them will vote "out of line", as they want to be re-selected next time, and we are only a few votes in the sceme of things !! Tom C -- Not necessarily, remember the biggest backbench revolt in the last Government was over the 1997 Act - more rebels could have made the Government think twice. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-The snowdrop campaign
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >I still find it hard to believe that the wrath of the parents >was not directed at the chief constable who made it possible >for the murderer to get his guns. He is an accessory to the >murders as he knew full well the character of that bag of >filth. I find it still harder to believe that the law >protectects him _ I heard a "rumour" soon after Dunblane that the bereaved families had been offered substantial compensation (L50,000 each was entioned) on the condition that they do not direct their anger at the police. However, I fail to see the purpose of trying to apportion the blame. Should a Prison Governor be sent to jail every time a prisoner escapes!? Hamilton was a very sick man - Hashimoto Disease - and he wanted to punish local community for what he imagined had been done to him. Locals are also guilty of treating him badly, NHS did not treat him, Police ignored good advice and renewed his FAC, but none of them can be blamed for the massacre, because Hamilton did that himself and if he had been denied pistols, he would have used a great number of other equally deadly, easily available options. He could have bought an Uzi on the black market for instance. If we persist in blaming "the authorities" for Dunblane, we must expect that the authorities will seek to shift the blame onto someone else! Guess who! Let us not waste any more time promoting the idea that massacres and murders can be prevented by banning all firearms! Alex. -- Alex, they did shift the blame onto us, so why should we not point the figure at the police? Also, if a prisoner escapes from prison due to the incompetence of the prison governor, hell yes I expect that governor to face some serious consequences, especially, say if the prisoner went into a school and killed 16 people. Also I know there is evidence that Hamilton suffered from Hashimoto's disease but the official story is that he did not, there not being enough evidence to prove it. The thing that galls me the most about this is that anyone actually still thinks it is worth debating! McMurdo resigned - Cullen explicitly said that CSP made serious mistakes, we're not the ones pointing the finger here, the police have accepted that they did make mistakes! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-crime stats
From: "jim.craig", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The thing that worries me about the rise in the violent crime statistics is that if Mr Blair and his cronies feel themselves to be under public criticism for being 'soft on crime' and feel themselves in need of a scapegoat to pummel in order to be seen to be 'doing something', is that they have the HASC proposals to respond to some time soon. Any bets on how they'll jump??? -- That's a good point although the Tony Martin case clouds the picture somewhat. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Law report
From: RustyBullethole, [EMAIL PROTECTED] If anyone followed the reports in Target Gun regarding the charitable status of the Gun Control Network this Law Report - The Times 18.7.00, may be of some interest. Demilitarisation is not a charitable object Southwood and Another v Attorney-General Before Lord Justice Kennedy, Lord Justice Chadwick and Lord Justice May Judgment June 28, 2000 A trust for the advancement of the education of the public in the subject of militarism and disarmament and related fields was not charitable because the court could not determine whether or not the trust's object of securing peace by demilitarisation promoted the public benefit. The Court of Appeal so held, dismissing the appeal of the plaintiffs, Peter Martin Southwood and David Ronald Parsons, trustees of the Project on Demilitarisation, against the decision of Mr Justice Carnwath (The Times October 26, 1998), that the purposes for which the trust was established were not charitable in law. Dr Southwood in person; Mr Ross Cranston; QC, Solicitor-General; and Mr William Henderson for the Attorney-General. LORD JUSTICE CHADWICK said that the question was whether the objects to be pursued should be recognised as being for the public benefit. It was not enough that the objects should be expressed to be the advancement of education. It was necessary that the advancement of education intended should promote the public benefit: see McGovern v Attorney-General ([1982] Ch 321). The relevant question was whether "the advancement of the education of the public in the subject of militarism and disarmament and related fields" promoted public benefit. If it did, the trust could be recognised as charitable. If it did not, or if, after investigation of the evidence, the court was satisfied that there was no means of determining whether it did or not, the trust could not be recognised as charitable. After reviewing the documents, his Lordship said that what the trustees had in mind when they executed the declaration of trust in June 1994 was that the education of the public should be advanced by the dissemination of their own views in relation to the evils of militarism, the need for disarmament, and the curtailment of the role of Nato and of the support of the United Kingdom for collective military security through an alliance of that nature. That was not to denigrate those views or to suggest that they were not sincerely held and defensible. But it had to be recognised that the purpose was to advocate alternative policies to achieve disarmament and a conversion of resources from military to civilian purposes. Cases in which the court regarded the element of public benefit as incapable of proof one way or the other, and so was obliged to decline to recognise the object as being of a charitable nature, included trusts for what were loosely described as political objects: see McGovern and Bowman v Secular Society Ltd ([1917] AC 406). In In re Koeppler's Will Trusts ([1986] Ch 423) the objects were held to be charitable because they were genuine attempts in an objective manner to ascertain and disseminate the truth, in which circumstances no objections to the trust arose on a political score. His Lordship said that there was no objection, on public benefit grounds, to an educational programme which began from the premise that peace was generally preferable to war. It was difficult to believe that any court would refuse to accept, as a general proposition, that it promoted public benefit for the public to be educated to an acceptance of that premise. That did not lead to the conclusion that the promotion of pacifism was necessarily charitable. The premise that peace was generally preferable to war was not to be equated with the premise that peace at any price was always preferable to any war. The latter plainly was controversial. But that was not this case. His Lordship accepted the proposition that it promoted public benefit for the public to be educated in the differing means of securing a state of peace and avoiding a state of war. The difficulty came at the next stage. There were differing views as to how best to secure peace and avoid war. To give two obvious examples: on the one hand it could be contended that war was best avoided by bargaining through strength; on the other hand it could be argued, with equal passion, that peace was best secured by disarmament, if necessary, by unilateral disarmament. The court was in no position to determine that promotion of the one view rather than the other was for the public benefit. Not only did the court have no material on which to make that choice; to attempt to do so would be to usurp the role of government. So the court could not recognise as charitable a trust to educate the public to an acceptance th
CS: Pol-oxygen of publicity
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Further to the discussion about advertising, money and the media, here is some more proof that money gets you publicity. Today, I listened to a five minute slot on BBC Radio Lancashire about Lawn Carpet Bowls. Something like that, anyway. Basically, the club had advertised and got 50 new junior members after the kids at the local primary school found out, and then the older kids heard, and suddenly, they have 50 kids between 9 and 16, and suddenly they get 3000 pounds to help buy equipment, etc. Apparently, it is the loners who tend to go along, as it is an individual sport, which requires manners, temper and calm thought. The kids who don't like football, or rugby. Can anyone else see the parallels? Normally, though, I would have changed channels, but it rang true regarding this topic. Still, there are probably a few tens of thousands of listeners, all of whom will now think a little more about Bowls. This would be great for shooting sports! On a related note, have all your clubs got a contact system sorted out, on-line? We just bought a few domain names, rifleclub.org.uk, and gunsnstuff.co.uk, and gunsandstuff.co.uk ready for a big listing. We plan to offer free hosting and email to any/every UK club at rifleclub.org.uk. For example, if you shoot at Southport rifle club, you could have www.southport.rifleclub.org.uk as your URL and [EMAIL PROTECTED] as your contact email, which is untraceable except to our server. We will also arrange for free email forwarding to an existing email address if required. The website will (hopefully) be a comprehensive shooting resource, with a free listing for every club in the country. If everyone on the list could send us an off-list email with just a few lines giving: the name of your club(s) where they are the URL if there is one whether you have a range or not coffee facilities when you shoot what you shoot a contact number or email address etc. then we will include all these clubs and their details in the listing. You can then go off to your clubs, and propose putting something up online. We will give you a free listing, and if you email us a page of details or some HTML, we will put it online for you. It couldn't get much easier! In fact, do it now! Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and tell us what you do! If demand arises, we will do a pistol contact email too, but at the moment, you can have e.g. www.southportpistoland.rifleclub.org.uk, or you could have www.somewhereblackpowder.rifleclub.org.uk. If everyone sends in details of every club they know, the listing will be a good resource in about a week! Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your club's details! Then mention the project to anyone else who might be interested. Note: the site isn't up yet. We only bought the names last night, and they aren't active yet! This is a free service, but if you want a site designed, we are website designers, so either way, drop us a line! Nigel Tolley Partner [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 0870 4421799 *** Internet Services & Web Development http://www.officedevils.co.uk Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Grandmother gives flasher some stick
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sergeant Andy Green of Belgrave police station said: "She reacted in a way which she saw fit. It's not something we would recommend as a course of action but all credit to her. It could well make him think twice before doing this kind of thing again." The incident happened in Belgrave Gate at around 8.30pm on Thursday. Police say the area was busy and are calling on any witnesses to call them on 0116 222 . Mrs Pandya said: "What worries me is that the neighbourhood centre and the recreation ground are nearby. A lot of youngsters use the recreation ground so I hope what happened will make him think twice about doing it again." What worries me, is, if I had done this, I would be in jail right now! The copper would be saying vigilanties are not needed, and I will be prosecuted to the full of the law. The fact I did not seek the trouble, but the trouble sought me seems less important than the age and sex of the victim. If Tony Martin was a woman, she would have walked. Nigel -- I'm actually trying to comprehend how showing someone you are nude threatens their life and limb to the extent that you are justified in whacking them with a stick... or was he that well armed. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-jokes
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Here's the one Steve means... A member of the IRA, originally a farmer, has been sent down. After a few weeks, he gets a letter from his wife, back at the farm, telling how she is having troubles without him to help. The time is getting short for planting, and she can't get the plough fixed, things are generally looking grim. He writes back, telling her to forget planting the potatoes, but to go out the the big field, and dig up the guns he buried there. She replies, I got your letter by hand, when the Army came round and dug up the field! He replies, "haha, they didn't find a thing, cos I hid them in the SMALL field!" She writes again, "This time the police came round and dug up the small field!" He writes again, and tells her, "Now is the time to plant the potatoes." It's the way I tell 'em. Badly, unfortunately. Nigel Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-chain mail
From: Ken Wyatt, [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's ages since I read a dumb question in CS so here goes... Chain mail, a re-enactor friend wishes to make a suit. Does anyone know who still makes it? I look at pictures of the stuff and can't for the life of me imagine how it is made. Your help would be gratefully received Take care all of the faith Ken Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Dunblane
From: "John Sukey", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pardon me if I had the wrong information, but I was led to believe that the Chief Constable and the murderer were both Masons. I was also informed that the chief Constable said he HAD to issue the licence which statement, having read your firearms law is a load of crap! -- There is no evidence that Hamilton was a mason, or McMurdo as I recall. Frankly using the masons as an excuse always strikes me as a waste of time, because it makes it look as though ACC McMurdo knew what he was doing but was bent, when in fact he didn't know what he was doing which is far worse IMO. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Section 44 appeal
From: Jonathan Spencer, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I am about to commence an appeal under Section 44 against Cleveland
Police's refusal to vary my FAC to add a cap-and-ball revolver ("muzzle
loading gun") for target shooting.
I realise that I have to submit a 'Notice of appeal' to the Court, and
copy this to the police, but not much beyond that.
I will be grateful for all advice or assistance from those who have been
through this or are familiar with the procedures. I am consulting both
BASC and the NRA for advice and/or help. I am also contacting David
Barnes (solicitor in Ipswitch).
--Jonathan Spencer, firearms examiner
"Justice is open to everybody in the same way as the Ritz Hotel."
Judge Sturgess, 22 July 1928
--
Bear in mind that tagline!
Filing it is pretty easy, I have the form of words if you want it,
you send a copy to the Chief Constable and another to the local
Crown Court. It can be worth going to the hearing on scheduling
(which they won't tell you about) as you may stand a chance of
getting a decent judge.
The police will send a letter saying they acknowledge the appeal.
Immediately write to them and ask for the evidence they are
going to present, make a note of it, because I can virtually
guarantee they will add things on the day you go to court. Also,
the reason they put in the refusal letter is rarely connected
with the real reason why they turned you down, so make sure you
are prepared to counter any possible reason they might have
for turning you down. Make the point to the judge that what
they have presented in court is not connected to what is in
the refusal letter, judges usually have a dim view of the police
misleading applicants.
Also, bear in mind that regardless of the strength of your
argument you will almost certainly get a judge that is biased
because (a) judges are just as anti-gun as everyone else
in this country and (b) they are always biased in favour
of the police.
Get a letter from the Home Office with their view of what
variations in this instance should be issued for, if you
are lucky the police will try and do the same thing and
the Home Office may disagree with them, which always looks
bad for them in court. Another angle which is very useful
is finding other FAC holders in the same force area who
have the same authority you are looking for, for the same
purpose. If you can't do that, find someone in the force
next door. This will make the judge wonder why the police
are discriminating against you personally.
Finally, bear in mind that you stand almost no chance of
being awarded costs, and frankly the odds are heavily
stacked against your winning, so make sure you can afford
it first. Parliament never intended that the police hire
a pricey barrister for appeals like this, but they often
do and you will get hit with those costs. You may be
angry at some small-minded licensing decision but it
will cost you dear if you lose.
I'd also run it past MLAGB.
Steve.
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CS: Pol-Revolver tribute to shot Beatle
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Assuming that Neil Francis is serious in preferring
John Lennon to Nelson, it seems a somewhat contentious
preference. Lennon was a fair tunesmith - gutsier than
McCartney - many of whose songs enlivened our youth, but
otherwise unremarkable. Viscount Nelson, on the other
hand, far from being a warmonger ("A person who seeks
to promote or bring about war" - Shorter OED - such as
Napoleon, perhaps?) was a brilliantly able and
charismatic sailor who served his country nobly when it
was threatened by an enemy every bit as dangerous as
the Third Reich. And one is much more free to be
"enlightened" if one's country is free; I think Nelson
did rather more to ensure our freedom than did John
Lennon. Neither am I sure that Lennon brought us much
enlightenment anyway - cf the drippy, shallow, intensely
irritating "Imagine"... He was an entertainer, for
goodness' sake, not remotely to be compared with Nelson,
who was worth a dozen Lennons and fifteen Tony Blairs.
Quite right about Faraday, of course - now if only he'd
been a pop star...
--
I have to say this whole debate is a bit silly, because
to suggest that "monument" in Trafalgar Square is in
any way a tribute to John Lennon is laughable.
Yoko Ono is a "UN goodwill ambassador" and is largely
responsible for the one outside the UN HQ in New York.
This is actually Yoko Ono and some artist in Sweden
conspiring to do things in the name of John Lennon
because Yoko Ono wants to show the world what a
great gal she is, when in fact it is personal vanity,
and this artist in Sweden wants to make a name for
himself.
John Lennon is largely irrelevant to the proceedings
other than being a limp excuse for cluttering up
Trafalgar Square.
Steve.
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CS: Pol-1,000 protest shootings in Handsworth
The Birmingham Post 17 July, 2000 1,000 IN GUN PROTEST Almost 1,000 people took to the streets of Handsworth and Lozells in Birmingham at the weekend to voice their anger over the spate of shootings in the area. Community leaders and prominent members of Birmingham's black churches were joined by parents of shooting victims at the peace rally which ended at Handsworth Park. The Rev Derek Webley, who help organised the march, said the procession proved to the gunmen that the community were united against violence in their area. "The march should not be seen as a solution but as a brick in a building block which showed the community does not want any shootings in the area," he said. "We have to condemn it and hope it does not become the norm but what we cannot guarantee is there will be no more shootings." Mrs Green Allen, the mother of gun-victim Mr Corey Allen, aged 28, who was killed in a double shooting outside the Oaklands Sport and Social centre, in Oaklands Road in May, made an emotional speech to the crowd. -- More evidence of the startling success of gun control. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Chaotic police records hide true extent of crimewave
From: "John Hurst", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Copyright 2000 Times Newspapers Ltd. Chaotic police records hide true extent of crimewave BY STEWART TENDLER, CRIME CORRESPONDENT CRIME figures are at least 20 per cent higher than those recorded by the police, according to an independent report due to be published soon. Hundreds of thousands of offences, including assaults, burglaries and car crime, are being excluded from national crime figures because of police inefficiency and bureaucracy. The Inspectorate of Constabulary's report, described by police sources as "explosive", provides the first comprehensive examination of crime recording in England and Wales and raises fresh doubts about the accuracy of current statistics. It also threatens to undermine the central thrust of Jack Straw's policy to improve police performance. That is based on setting demanding targets for cutting particular crimes and publishing figures for individual divisions. Ministers are already vulnerable over law and order and have had to bring forward the release of the latest crime figures after being accused of trying to bury bad news by publishing them on the same day as the Comprehensive Spending Review. The new figures will show that crime has risen by 4 per cent from 5.2 million offences to about 5.4 million in the year to March. If crime levels were really 20 per cent higher than that, it would take the total to at least 6.4 million - and the Conservatives are bound to seize upon the discrepancy. The inspectorate report, On the Record, found inconsistency between forces over the way crimes are recorded and demanded that the 43 forces agree a national system for recording offences. It did not conclude that forces were deliberately attempting to massage crime figures down, but blamed the current police habit of downgrading crimes by, for example, listing attempted burglaries as vandalism. The report also recommends that victims, and not the police, should confirm the nature of crimes. It says that too many decisions on whether a crime had taken place were left to individual officers and that there were too many differences between forces on the categories under which offences should be recorded. The inspectorate report is backed by a second unpublished study by the consultants Morgan, Harris and Burrows which was commissioned by the Home Office several years ago. That report also found shortfalls in the way forces recorded crime, with some divisions under-reporting by even more than 20 per cent. Chief constables have been alerted to the report's controversial findings and are considering adopting a uniform policy for recording offences. Home Office crime figures are based on crimes recorded under categories set by Whitehall. Over the 1990s, recorded crime fell steadily, but the British Crime Survey of victims' experiences has consistently shown that crime was still rising until last year. A crime researcher said the shortfall came as no surprise. Officers were under pressure and may want to avoid recording a minor crime that would produce considerable paperwork. One said "If a handbag was reported missing should it be regarded as a crime?" "One must realize that the world is a network of real and virtual combat zones where the stakes are high, struggle is the primary mode of being and only total victory is acceptable." -- Sun Tzu, "The Art Of War" Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Nelson and Lennon
From: "John Sukey", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Could not help laughing about Nelson being called a warmonger. Does the writer actually think the military enjoys war! How daft can anyone be? Oh its tommy this and tommy that, and chuck im out, the brute, but its saviour of is country, when the guns begin to shoot. Nelson fought his battles because the government and the people wanted him to . By the same token then, we should call Mr. Lennon a drugs monger, or a free love monger(its great for the men), but then they don't get pregnant. Rock stars are 10p a dozen, but going by history, winning generals and admirals are rather in short supply. Unfortunately, politicians, like rats, are a plague on the land. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Attack on the Queen mother
From: "John Sukey", [EMAIL PROTECTED] You almost got it right. Edward VII was the reason that "little Willie didn't start things off until 1914 as he was scaredof his uncle. Edward VIII was was the Nazi lover. Wonder why anyone bothers to read the Manchester Guardian unless its because they miss Pravda and Isvestia. Toads like Anthony Holden will always be ready to spread their slime about. He conveniently forgets that the government at that time was in favour of apeasment and Churchill was looked upon as a dangerous lunatic for wanting to rearm. From what I have read, most people agreed with that. The important fact is that when the King and Queen were faced with war, they did not flinch or run away, but took their chances with everyone else. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-The snowdrop campaign
From: "John Sukey", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I still find it hard to believe that the wrath of the parents was not directed at the chief constable who made it possible for the murderer to get his guns. He is an accessory to the murders as he knew full well the character of that bag of filth. I find it still harder to believe that the law protectects him. But then there are probably a lot of M.P.s who are also masons. The legislation passed after dunblane is a perversion of the law by pratts who made this possible in the first place abetted by a press who hasn't a clue and really don't want to know. -- The masons had nothing to do with it. However, you raise an interesting point, the parents were all for suing CSP for their inept administration of the licensing system, however the police did a better job of deflecting them than we did, plus there were those in the anti-gun lobby who thought that it played into our hands to go after the police because that's what we were doing. Guy Savage can give you a better rundown on this as he was involved with it. So the police got away scot-free, essentially, except for the retirement of one officer, and 57,000 innocent people were scapegoated. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Australia ABS homicide statistics
From: SSAA, [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ssaa.org.au/homo99.html will take you to the latest ABS statistics on 1999 homicide rates in Australia Statistics issued June 2000 -- And they indicate that firearm-related homicide is rising. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Trafalgar Square Revolver
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I personally think we should buy it and stick it at the entrance to Bisley Camp with "In memory of the 57,000 scapegoats of the Dunblane Tragedy" or something engraved on it. Steve. _ I'll go for that and it is the best idea I have heard for a long time. When you are elected to NRA Council, perhaps you would like to propose that. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-legitimate uses
From: "rastech", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, >>>So, if vendor 'A' makes firearms for target shooting, and vendor 'B' makes them for hunting, while vendor 'C' makes them for killing people in time of armed conflict, and all are essentially identical, what then is the real purpose of them? Is not the ultimate goal merely to launch a projectile at a target? What matter the target, as long as it is a legal target? Cannot all be employed successfully for defence, or for killing, or for murder?<<< >>>If those products are all identical, what's the difference?<< Really, all this skirting around the issues and this and that and the other, only goes to highlight one thing. That is, how sensible a concept "criminal intent" actually is. Once we get away from that simple and logical framework of defining the law, we end up in deep, deep trouble. It doesn't really matter a heck what people have, as long as they have no criminal intent with their property. If they do have criminal intent, then the law more than adequately caters for the circumstances. We should have the common sense as a Society to just leave it at that. Bob -- Hear, hear. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Who to Vote For??
From: "pendrous", [EMAIL PROTECTED] By Terry Pendrous, Well how about the UKIP. They may not have many thoughts on our recent betrayal, but at least they havn't been involved. All the rest of the rotten system have. Also===they do have another agenda which I think is VERY important, that concerns all of us. It is certainly better than sitting on ones hands and will definitely show the rest what we think of them. Not only that-- many others are going to vote for them, especially where the Sovereignty of our Islands are concerned. Nobody I talk to, trusts any of the current Political,Judicial or Bureaucratic establishment. They have had enough examples in recent years to continually remind them of that. What we have got to do is throw the bloody lot out, Lock, Stock and Barrel. The time for pussy footing has long passed. -- The UKIP is just like all the other parties - a mixed bag. If all the Labour MPs were like Frank Cook I am sure everyone would be saying "Vote Labour!" The only way to break the three-line whip is to vote by candidate. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Blair's record
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CRACKDOWNS ON CRIME - BUT A MIXED RECORD 170933 JUL 00 By Martin Hickman, Political Correspondent, PA News The thought that the Government was being seen as "soft" on crime must have had Tony Blair tearing his hair out. The Prime Minister has gone to great lengths to seize the Conservatives' traditional claim to be the party of law and order. He regularly extols New Labour's toughness on crime and once, famously, promised to be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime. He and Home Secretary Jack Straw have announced a stream of crackdowns on crime this year alone - giving police forces targets for cutting the numbers of offences, enabling police to test suspected drug addicts, and increasing the use of electronic tagging for offenders. Other plans have included jailing the parents of truanting children, providing extra money for police recruits, and increasing the powers to seize criminals' assets. But the Government's record on crime has been mixed. Despite a manifesto pledge to cut red tape and put more bobbies on the beat, the number of the police officers has fallen since the general election. Crime figures being published tomorrow are expected to show a small rise in crime and an average 19% increase in violent crime. Of particular public concern when Mr Blair wrote his memo, however, was the controversial case of jailed farmer Tony Martin, who was jailed for shooting dead 16-year-old burglar Fred Barras during the third break-in at his Norfolk home in as many months. There was public concern that the jury in the case had been intimidated and, more generally, that the scales of justice had become weighted in favour of criminals. More recently, ministers were criticised for failing to prevent football fans without previous convictions travelling to the Euro 2000 soccer tournament - where there was hooliganism. Mr Blair was forced into a U-turn over his plans for on-the-spot fines for louts. Police said there was merit in the idea of fixed penalty notices, but said marching offenders to cash machines simply would not work. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Dodgy Tank Ammunition
From: Richard Barrett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >FAULTY TANK SHELLS `PUT TROOPS AT RISK' > > > > >snip > >An MoD spokesman told PA News: "We can categorically > >say we have no problems with any in-service propellant > >charge supplied by the Royal Ordnance." > > >Note the exact words, they do not deny there is a problem, they just say >that it is not the messengers fault for a change. > That is too kind an interpretation. This is the normal bureaucrats way of leaving the impression they have told the truth while avoiding the central issue being questioned. Their objective is obfuscation, simply fogging people's perception without being caught telling an explicit lie. I don't know why there is so much whinging of late about spin doctors at No.10; Whitehall mandarins and equivalent senior bureaucrats like ACPO members have been shafting the general public and MPs since the dawn of time using these economies with the truth (the whole truth and nothing but truth - like hell). Maybe its the civil servants that are complaining about the poor quality of No.'s 10 spin doctors bringing the profession into disrepute. Alistair Campbell could never match the incomparable Sir Humphrey Appleby (?) in Yes (Prime) Minister. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Grandmother gives flasher some stick
From: "John Hurst", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Grandmother gives flasher some stick by Lee Marlow This is Leicestershire, 10 July 2000 A grandmother who hit an elderly flasher with her walking stick and then kicked him while he was down said today: "I hope it makes him think twice about doing it again." Pamela Pandya, 56, of Leicester, was walking down Belgrave Gate to post a letter when she was approached by an elderly man. He loosened his trousers, exposed himself to her and made an indecent proposal. But Mrs Pandya who suffers with arthritis in her spine raised her walking stick and hit him where it hurts. He fell to the ground in agony. Instinctively, Mrs Pandya followed through with a swift kick to the body. She then walked on and posted her letter. "I didn't have time to think about what I was doing," she said. "It all happened so quickly. "I told him he was 'dirty' and left him on the ground and walked off and posted my letter. He was lucky. If I hadn't had my stick I would have really gone for him." The man is described as Asian, about 60 years old, 5ft 6in tall, with a thin build, an unshaven face with grey stubble and short dark hair. He was wearing a navy-blue single-breasted jacket, black trousers with a white paint mark on the left leg and brown lace-up shoes. Police have praised Mrs Pandya for her bravery. Sergeant Andy Green of Belgrave police station said: "She reacted in a way which she saw fit. It's not something we would recommend as a course of action but all credit to her. It could well make him think twice before doing this kind of thing again." The incident happened in Belgrave Gate at around 8.30pm on Thursday. Police say the area was busy and are calling on any witnesses to call them on 0116 222 . Mrs Pandya said: "What worries me is that the neighbourhood centre and the recreation ground are nearby. A lot of youngsters use the recreation ground so I hope what happened will make him think twice about doing it again." Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-ECHR
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] I just wish I could have seen the look on Charles Clarke's face when the Crown Court in Birmingham handed down the judgement that speed camera offences violate the right to remain silent. [...] Was that court judgement the final word, or is there still another review and appeal? Here in my own state of Washington, traffic cameras are not allowed as evidence for the sole purpose of issuing a traffic citation, but can otherwise be entered into court record as evidence. To be cited for a traffic infraction (usually called a moving violation), the officer issuing the citation (or his partner, if working traffic in a team) must have visually witnessed the infraction, or unless the officer is at the scene of an accident and issues as a result of a finding. That one of your courts has disallowed such video evidence in the way of prosecution, I would not find too much comfort in. That a 'lawbreaker' was allowed to skip is perhaps a celebratory thing in the consideration of all other things traffic. I would however consider the 'fuller' implications if in the same vein, a violent felon is allowed to skip using the traffic camera precedent. Else, what is the difference between a camera and an eye witness (neglecting to address the implications of tampered evidence)? And before there is any such challenge in the way of firearms, may I express the necessity to establish other supporting structures in the law, that will serve to bolster your positions when you decide to act in that regard, not unlike paving the way, as it were. A good cake deserves the right amount of baking! ET -- There are all sorts of appeals they can make but I don't think it would be wise politically because the Government would in essence be attacking the Human Rights Act, an Act they pushed through Parliament. Also I think they would have a very hard time overturning that decision so it would be unwise legally, because the last thing they want is the High Court or the House of Lords agreeing as then it really will be chiselled in stone. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Who to Vote For??
From: James McNair, [EMAIL PROTECTED] A vote for Labour would be a disaster not only for shooters , but for everyone who wants to live their own life. A vote for the Liberals ? well thats not even a question. The Tories , well despite the fact that it was Howard that started this ball rolling he did so only under massive pressure from certain wa*kers like Forsyth from his own Party , the media , and worst of all B liars gang who , at the time , was promising everything to everyone just to get in office. To my mind the ONLY vote for shooters is a Tory vote - there is no other option. -- Well, I think you are seriously mistaken - no-one forced the Conservatives to ban SLRs and pump-action rifles or to introduce shotgun registration in 1988. Shooters should not vote by party, vote by how the candidate feels on the issue, we don't need any more David Mellors in Parliament. The tories know full well that a lot of shooters think like you do - they should not be given the easy option, they must be forced to come around to thinking that repealing the handgun ban and so on will win votes. Talk to the candidates before you vote - in the past ten years I have voted for candidates from four different parties, based on what the candidate I was talking to said to me. It is really important that every shooter in the country takes the time to talk to their candidates for political office. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-I Am Alive, No Thanks to Gun Control
From: "John Hurst", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I Am Alive, No Thanks to Gun Control by Hillel Goldstein There are times in our lives when many of our most basic assumptions come under a barrage from the heavy artillery of reality. Some of us receive such a wake-up call in the form of a life-threatening event that literally shatters our lives. It is then up to us to do our best to take inventory of the damage to body and soul, pick up the pieces, and start afresh. I would like to tell you, at the time of the anniversary of a horrible encounter that almost killed me, of such a time of reckoning. But first, some background will help. I was born in Rochester, New York, on the holiest of Jewish Holidays, Yom Kippur. My parents are American-born children of Eastern European Orthodox Jewish immigrants. Had my grandparents chosen to stay in Europe, I would not be around. During World War II, every member of my paternal and maternal families that stayed behind in Galicia and Lithuania died a horrible death at the hands of the Nazis. So we can be counted among the fortunate ones. Martial Memories My family and I moved to Israel in 1973, a month before the Yom Kippur War. At the time, it seemed strange to see young men and women toting rifles. I quickly learned the reason for this: These young conscripts were the first to leap into action if anything went awry. Almost daily, I heard news accounts - terrifying, chilling stories - about terrorists who invaded high school dormitories, or who stormed into the apartments of regular Israeli citizens. Since most Israelis serve in the Reserves until well into middle age, many of them were able to fight back, although the terrorists tended to have the cowardly advantage of sheer surprise. I was drafted into service in the Israel Defense Forces in 1983, and served for three years in a combat unit. I saw two tours of combat duty in Lebanon. By the time I became a staff sergeant, firearms were a natural extension of my arm, reserved for what police marksmanship trainer Massad Ayoob would call the gravest extreme. At various points in my military career, I carried an M-16, short M-16, M-203, Galil, and short Galil (Glilon). I was a good shot and a disciplined soldier. In my specialty in the Israeli Defense Force, I functioned as a drill sergeant for the 18-year-old boy-soldiers who were recruited every few months. The many stereotypes that abound about basic training stem, in part, from the immensely difficult task that recruits must master within six months: They must transform themselves from high-school graduates into soldiers. The extreme psychological stress inherent in military combat duty left a strong impression on me. I became fascinated with the amazing adaptability of people to less-than-ideal situations. I developed an interest in psychology that has guided my career ever since. Attacked in the U.S.A. In the summer of 1986 I returned to the U.S. After acquiring a bachelor's degree and two master's degrees in psychology, I settled in Chicago, to raise a family and complete my Doctor of Psychology degree. I lost contact with the world of firearms - until Benjamin Smith, a Neo-Nazi from a wealthy home, tried to kill me as I walked home from synagogue on Friday, July 2, 1999. I am a Chassidic Jew, and at the time of Benjamin Smith's attack I was wearing my traditional Sabbath garb. "Easy target," he must have thought. Like many complacent Americans, I used to think - naively - that spree-killings such as Benjamin Smith's couldn't happen in "my neighborhood." Yet there he was, my would-be assassin, idling at the stop sign on my block. As soon as I came within a few feet of his vehicle, he opened fire. I didn't have a clue what was happening. As it was the Fourth of July weekend, firecrackers had been going off all day, and this did not sound any different. I kept walking, but I felt a sudden pain and I realized that I was bleeding heavily. I had been shot in the abdomen, shoulder, and arm. And so, on the Fourth of July weekend, when we proudly celebrate our independence, I almost died. What About Gun Control? I was categorized as seriously wounded, and, thank God, received emergency treatment at one of Chicago's best trauma units. As I convalesced in the hospital I was astounded at the number of phone calls I received right in my room from the news media, local and national. Suddenly I was "somebody" to these folks, because Benjamin Smith was still on the rampage in Illinois and Indiana, and reporters hungry for a scoop continually pestered me for an interview. I refused to speak to anyone. Although that time is somewhat clouded by a painkiller and IV-induced haze, I recall all too clearly that the vast majority of the media people wanted to speak with me about the implication of my personal tragedy for "gun control." As a result of my experience, I became interested in the issues pertaining to the so-called panacea called gun control, and decided to investigate the
CS: Pol-Democracy
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" And frankly democracy stinks anyway, few countries have what could be called democracy, they generally have a republican form of government with certain rules - we don't, which is one of the reasons why we were shafted. Steve. Well Steve, that's a mouthful! I too am not terribly impressed with ~ democracy ~ as it is interpreted in most of the Western World. It is only satisfactory in any degree if it comes with the checks and balances built into a constitution which moderates mob rule and protects minorities. I am a great fan of the US constitution and I believe the Founding Fathers did an excellent job but even there not all of them believed in democracy (read the Federalist Papers for evidence). Anyway, who can call their idea of government democracy when it excluded well over 50% of the adult population from the franchise (most women and all slaves)? What they all believed in was the protection of individual rights under whatever form of government they selected and the ability to enforce those rights. That is the core of individual liberty. Our fundamental problem is the lack of a constitution. I know that some pedant will say that we have one, it is simply uncodified, but I would respond to that by saying: 1. Any constitution that requires an expert to find it let alone read it, is useless. If a moderately educated citizen is incapable of identifying and reading his own constitution, it does not exist in any meaningful manner. 2. Any constitution that can be overturned by a simple majority in the legislature isn't worth the paper it's written on ~ or in our case not written on. Unfortunately it isn't in the interests of any major political force in this Country to try and adopt a constitution and so, with any checks and balances we have had being demolished day by day I only see a rather bleak future for liberty in the UK. Kenneth Pantling - Malcontent Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-PNG proposes gun ban
From: SSAA, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let us pray that the politicians who demand that the Police Commissioner issue them handguns for self defence will be the first to give up their guns in pursuit of a more peaceful society. - Government to introduce tough control laws: PM By ISAAC NICHOLAS THE Government will introduce tighter gun control legislation, including a total ban on gun ownership, in a move aimed at reducing crime and violence in the country, Prime Minister Sir Mekere Morauta indicated on Friday. Speaking at the opening of the PNG Tourism Conference at the Madang Resort Hotel, Sir Mekere said Papua New Guinea is seen overseas as a dangerous place to visit. "However, there is one area where I believe strongly the government could make an immediate difference, and that is gun control." Sir Mekere said that there had undoubtedly been a proliferation of guns, both legal and illegal, in the country in recent years. "Without question this has contributed to the level of crime and violence in society. We are looking at ways, including legislation, of strictly controlling, perhaps even outlawing altogether, ownership of guns," said Sir Mekere. He said penalties for breaking the new laws would be severe. "In my view, this can only have a positive impact on our law and order problems." Sir Mekere said a Tourism Promotion Authority (TPA) survey of visitors last year found that of the 528 respondents, about half said law and order was a problem. "There is no point complaining about this. The only sensible response is for us to do something about it. The simple fact is that there have been instances of terrible crimes committed, of course, mostly against our own people, but very occasionally against tourists and foreign residents. In our main towns crime has been on the increase over the last decade." He said however, that the perceptions are greater than the reality. For example serious crime tends to be concentrated in specific areas. It does not affect the entire country. Sir Mekere said the Government is attempting to persuade foreign governments to be more careful when issuing travel alerts relating to Papua New Guinea. "Papua New Guinea is no more dangerous for tourists than, say, Russia, or Egypt or parts of Africa or Asia. In fact, it is probably a lot less dangerous. Yet these countries have strong tourism industries, There must then be some factors in these countries that neutralise their law and order problems, and still make them attractive to tourists." The Prime Minister said law and order is one of the Government's five high priority areas, not just for the sake of the tourism industry but also for peace and development generally. "It is one of the five high priorities of Government, receiving a slight increase in funding this year. Next year it will receive more again." Sir Mekere said law and order is not by any means purely a financial issue. "Merely allocating large amounts of financial resources will not solve law and order problems. More government expenditure might help, but it will not provide the solution. Crime is a very complex and difficult social issue, occasioned by constantly changing factors, some of which we have little control over in the short term." "But at the heart of the social breakdown that leads to crime is a lack of opportunity. At its most basic, this means decent jobs for the thousands of people who leave school each year. Because of the dramatic deterioration in the economy between 1997 and 1999, unemployment and poverty have been rising." Sir Mekere said that for a long time, employment opportunities had not kept pace with population growth. "I am sure that everyone here appreciates that the nation is in a much healthier state than it was 12 months ago. The currency has begun to stabilise. Prices are beginning to fall and interest rates are coming down." He said the groundwork for the economy to grow has been laid and in time, increased economic activity should lead to growth in employment opportunities. "Stimulating economic growth through competent, fair and accountable government will help remove the underlying causes of crime -- poverty, unemployment, illiteracy, ill health and breakdown of the family." Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
