CS: Legal-airsoft guns
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Also the 'law' under which this requirement was set must have been made in Parliament originally. Local councils cannot impose or make 'laws' they can only enforce or accept powers devolved to them by Parliament. Bye Laws are imposed under powers devolved to the council or other bodies. The Town Police Clauses Acts are a good example of this, the local councils were given the opportunity to adopt them but they had to take a 'package of laws' not individual laws. Thus in some parts of the UK its illegal to 'maintain' your car (carry out repairs, etc) at the roadside except in the case of a breakdown while in other areas just down the road it is not. To further complicate the situation its the original council area that adopted these 'clauses' that the law applies to and not current boundaries! Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-police corruption
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have had members removed from Clubs of which I have been a member, because they were unsafe or became unsuitable in our opinion. Some joined other clubs but most just left the sport. One was a little embarrassing as the member concerned was sacked from his job (by another member), became unsafe in both attitude and due to a medical condition he did not take care of enough, and his attitude became both unreasonable and at times offensive. His certificate was subsequently revoked. The real embarrassment was his employment as a Special Constable when he first joined the club, they later dismissed him and it was the same force that subsequently revoked his FAC. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-gcn membership
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] What would happen if a dozen of us joined the GCN as paid up members? Would we be able to take control of the organisation and close it down, or change it so that it appeared even more absurd? J. -- According to their submissions to the HAC, they don't accept new members because they have a fear or being infiltrated, this advice coming from Sarah Brady apparently. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-gcn membership
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I believe the 'Hole in the Ground in Wales' is a holiday/second home, their main residence is somewhere in South East England. Incidentally I spotted a news report recently that said there is still some hassle over the 'hole in the ground' as it breached planning law and was built without proper permissions or respect for the environment in a national park. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-IGs bad apples etc
From: "niel fagan", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Thank you IG, I feel that this is a reasonable answer, but I >am very puzzled by your reluctance to discuss the selection >procedure for AFOs. >Is this not a matter of very legitimate public interest? >I would be happier if you could either state (or imply) that >you are not able to answer this question (we will all then >know what you mean.) >I have to say that many members of the public (non-shooters) >seem to be terrified of the armed police units, viewing them >more as a hazard than as any kind of protection. >Chris Gould Sussex were/are putting their faith in phsycometric (can't spell that) testing (and thats very worrying having been similarly tested by one employer myself), hants very publicly invited a female probationer to do a bit of training/shooting on the TV, nothing was seen about any selection process and very shortly after she and her partner (also a police officer) were suspended while being investigated for insurance fraud, IIRC that all ended up in court.. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Charlton Heston on UK gun law
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Charlton Heston criticises UK gun law 'cowardice' Heston: Britain's gun laws are "a subtle form of surrender to the criminals" November 15, 2000 Web posted at: 5:25 AM EST (1025 GMT) November 15, 2000 Web posted at: 5:25 AM EST (1025 GMT) LONDON, England (Reuters) -- Hollywood actor Charlton Heston has launched a no-holds-barred attack on Britain's gun laws, describing the inability of citizens to bear arms as "cultural cowardice." The Oscar-winning star, famous for his heroic roles in film classics Ben Hur and Planet of the Apes, said that crime had increased in Britain since the 1997 ban on hand guns. In a speech to students at Oxford University on Tuesday, he said that he would be "safer stepping off the plane in Los Angeles...than walking the streets of London." Heston, long-standing president of the U.S. National Rifle Association, spoke only briefly to the Oxford Union of his cinematic career, concentrating instead on the right of citizens to bear arms. "I have spent my life in service to these two sacred sets of work -- the gift of human passion in William Shakespeare and the gift of human freedom enshrined in the American bill of human rights," he said. "Tony Blair can have his body guards and the police are all allowed to defend themselves, then so should the people." Britain's gun laws were "cultural cowardice and a subtle form of surrender to the criminals," said Heston, saying that possession of a gun did not make people criminals or more likely to commit crime. Turning to the U.S. elections, Heston, a staunch Republican, condemned Democratic candidate Al Gore for taking legal action over the Florida result but said that whoever was installed in the Oval Office would have "his tenure in question. He will not have an easy time." -- If you go to www.nralive.com you can see him give the speech. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-voting
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] <> If I was to accept that you are right, what happened in 1997? And in any case, show me a single candidate or prospective MP who will make an election manifesto on a single issue? It wont happen. Even if there was such a thing, there aren't enough shooters in this country who are passionate enough to make any difference. We can't even unite under one organisation! IG -- What happened in 1997 is that all the parties supported the ban. However, the SRA managed in 1988 to get enough people to vote against William Hague in a by-election that he just scraped in by I think 600 votes in a safe Tory seat. At the next election his margin was in five figures. I'll bet if you ask William Hague if he thinks shooters are a force to be reckoned with at an election his view will be different to yours. The best example I can think of is Bernie Sanders, who is the Congressman from Vermont. This guy was a founder I understand of the American Socialist Party, and the incumbent was a Republican in the 1992 election. Bernie Sanders got elected purely because he opposed the Brady Bill, even the Republican and the Democrat said as much in their concession speeches. Shooters were a major force in the elections in New South Wales I think it was in 1991 or thereabouts. My experience is that it depends on what the issue is. If it is something minor like a proposal to make background checks tougher or have a longer waiting period then gun owners aren't much of a force at an election. However if it is something severe like the introduction of a ban or registration, and one party is heavily for it and one heavily against, then gun owners can make a major difference in the outcome. There's no need for the candidate to make an election pledge on just one issue, that's not the point. If the candidate is against more gun laws and isn't extreme on some other issue gun owners will vote for him/her. "They'll have to shoot me first to take my gun." - Roy Rogers discussing the 1982 California handgun "freeze" referendum, which failed. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Canadian Stats on handguns tell the story
From: "Gunter, Lorne (EDM_EXCHANGE)", [EMAIL PROTECTED] appeared in the Edmonton Journal (Canada) Wednesday 22 November 2000 headline: Stats on handguns tell the story: They're a murderer's preferred firearm despite 66 years of registration The homicide stats are in. The homicide stats are in. ``Gee,'' you say, embarrassed for me, shifting your gaze from side to side to avoid making eye contact. ``Gunter, you have a very ghoulish sense of glee.'' And you'd be correct, if my interest in the national murder statistics had anything to do with the murders behind the numbers. But it doesn't. Rest assured, I take no delight in the fact that 536 Canadians were murdered last year. There is some genuine good news in the statistics for 1999, though. The numbers of homicides fell by 22 from 1998. And the murder rate, at under two people in 100,000, is, according to Statistics Canada, at ``its lowest level since 1967.'' Thankfully, murder remains a relatively rare crime in Canada. It is still about 40 per cent above where it was in 1960. Yet it is nowhere near the peak of nearly three persons per 100,000 (almost double the current rate) achieved in 1975. Our murder rate, like the murder rates of most industrialized countries, shot up in the late 1960s, reached its zenith in the mid- to late-70s, and has been trending downward since. In Canada, even in this current election, the Liberals have credited their 1977 gun law for this improvement. But since the trend is common to almost all developed countries, and most of them didn't have our 1977 gun laws, the Liberals' self-congratulatory explanation seems improbable, to say the least. No, the cause is more likely demographic. The huge generation of the postwar baby boom, which was common to most developed nations, began in 1946 and entered its prime murdering years (18 to 30) in 1964.
CS: Crime-Safer Scotland Campaign
From: "jim.craig", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Scottish Executive is trumpeting the success of its Safer Scotland Campaign and announces that during the first month Scottish Police have confiscated 642 weapons on the streets. 320 of these were knives and other weapons included table legs; bottles;golf clubs; steering locks; belts; hammers; crowbars; baseball bats and a fluorescent light tube (?!). Noticeable by their absence is any mention of missile firing weapons of any kind. No firearms; airguns; crossbows or catapults. So I suppose we will now see a campaign to have golf clubs put 'on ticket' ( a Five Iron Certificate? - ouch!) or maybe a need to show 'good reason' to own a fluorescent light tube! Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Web Site of interest
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] <> I didn't post the web site in order to support the argument for regulation. I believe that it illustrates the useless nature of the laws that we already have and also illustrates my view that those who advocate total freedom of possession of firearms would have to be happy with characters such as this. I personaly do not consider that people like this should be free to have a firearm. If Peter Jackson, an RFD and part of the licensing system by his own assertion, was to have his way, then firearms would be as free to exchange as apples, either singly or by the pound. In response to Mr Totty. Mr Kleasen is the spawn of your country, you are welcome to have him back. With regards to the MP, if you are curious about crime cameras, ask her yourself. Nothing to do with me, nor am I interested. Now, if you read my post, you will see that I don't offer any explanation, excuse or apology for this homicidal American person being allowed to have a firearm. In your fantasy law-free society, though, he would be allowed to. I know which I prefer, and it isn't yours, matey. You can spout on all you want about how great the a place the American west was, about sheriffs and all that wild west stuff. I., personally, am not interested in how great it was to live in the cowboy days. If there is any relevance to the present UK society, then wake me up and tell me.In any case, you can't really go back much further than the wild west days, as your native peoples didn't keep recorded history, did they? Come to think of it, all that stuff about Wyatt Earp and those brave frontier sheriffs was really just a myth created in Hollywood and Zane Grey books, wasn't it? Or was there really such persons as the lone ranger and Bill Boyd? As for less laws creating less criminals...you must have been up all night working that one out, or is it in a poster in one of your 'Anarchy 'r us' shops? Or a 'Waco u like'? Perhaps a quick look at the laws in the most litigation conscious society in the world ..blow me.I just realised...are you thinking of returning to your roots? IG
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] <> Of course, if you put into place the methods of recording crime that are used nowadays and couple that with the modern communications systems that we have, then that would sort out the reasons why general crime figures were much lower. A working class person in Whitechapel wasnt going to bother reporting to the police that he had been robbed of a penny whilst walking home from the tavern. Neither were there as many offences capable of being recorded as a crime. (there wouldnt be any burglaries, for example, nor thefts of or from motor vehicles, or twoc, or abstract electricity, or public order offences other than breach of the peace, OR any firearms offences, or any drugs related offences, etc etc) How many firearms were in public hands prior to 1920? (In comparison to, say, 1995?) If there was no regulation, then that can't be known. I know, if guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns. The point is that society has changed since then. Crimes, generally, were pretty unsophisticated and by and large petty in comparison to today. In our current society, the criminal is willing to go to greater and greater lengths to obtain what he or she wants. The media image of armed criminality is widely copied. Uzis and Mac10's are designer firearms for drug dealers and their minders. AK47's are widely available from the former eastern bloc countries. We know there are virtually no border controls at other than the main ports, so these weapons flood into the country. The point is, therefore, that the lower incidence of firearms related crime prior to the 1920's has nothing to do with the lack of regulation of firearms. IG -- A fair point, but it can't be argued that tighter controls have led to less crime either. As far as I have been able to piece together the reason the police started refusing to issue FACs for personal protection after WW2 is because armed crime was so rare that the police felt no-one had sufficient justification to require a firearm. I'm still a bit sketchy on the exact details but it appears that the end came in 1954, when a jeweller was brutally murdered in London during a robbery. Another jeweller applied for an FAC for personal protection, and the police turned him down, pointing out that it was such a rare event that he could not possibly have a satisfactory "good reason". In 1953 there were 17 recorded armed robberies in London and in 1954 there were 4. The police thus established this policy and it has stayed with us ever since, evolving into a myth about how people shouldn't have firearms for self-defence because it's too dangerous, despite the level of offences of armed robbery, assault, and murder skyrocketing since 1954 (in 1993 for example there were about 4,000 recorded armed robberies in London). This myth is partially behind the motivation for ever tougher gun laws, although the indication is that despite the armed robbery rate dropping recently, the rate of the most serious offences is still moving upwards. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-police corruption
From: "niel fagan", [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Does anyone know any person who has justifiably had a cert revoked? I >wager >that no one will admit it here! (as it seems the overiding view is that >anyone should be able to carry anything they want at any time and at any >place.)< > Yes, and I was part of that process. I also know of several people refused membership due to their unsuitable atitude, thus they couldn't even apply for a cert. One of those was of eastern ethnic origin, he would not communicate with other members (he spoke better english than most of us) and the club sec. at that time suspected there was something amiss, the local police however would not confirm his suspicions, though the man seemed to be known to them...That was in the 70's, these days the club would be in court accused of discrimination no doubt.. IG would the police support a club these days if the applicant was from an ethnic minority and in the clubs opinion not suitable? Niel. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-HO survey of police forces
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think we're right to be cautious but the Home Office realised that the data held by police forces on the number and types of guns in circulation was suspect at the time of the 1997 Acts. And the Home Office realised it! The central database needs some sort of data to match the guns against and the current police records just are not capable of doing that with any reliability. Your into statistics, if the data is suspect then any trends you glean from it must be suspect. There may be a fuss about 'long barreled revolvers circumventing the intention of Parliament' but in reality they are legal by the letter of the law as it stands and just how many of them are there anyway? Not that many that's for sure. Th eHome Office can't really come up with any meaningful reason to ban lon barreled revolvers unless they have some data. Unless the politicians decide to twist some facts to suit themselves. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Airsoft guns
From: RustyBullethole, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This article from the December 2000 issue of Gun Mart might square the circle on the airsoft story. Rusty GunMart December 2000 Toys are not us? It has come to our attention that Sussex Police submitted some Airsoft sub machine gun toy replicas to a Forensic Scientist for testing. The resulting forensic report caused a solicitor from the Crown Prosecution Service to advise that he believed the Airsoft guns satisfied the definition of firearms under Section 57(1) of the Firearms Act 1968 and would also qualify as PROHIBITED WEAPONS under Section 5 of the Act (Eds Note: In other words, he regards Airsoft guns to be the equivalent in law to REAL sub machine guns and other banned firearms). Sussex Police are now advising the Home Office of this forensic examination, in order that they can decide what action, if any, to take. Editor's comment Whether or not you like Airsoft guns - and I'm no great fan myself - I think that any sensible person would realise that they are merely `big boys' toys. Sophisticated toys, realistic looking toys in some cases, toys for adults, but toys none the less. If commonsense had anything to do with this matter, the staff at the Home Office would be laughing like hyenas when they received the CPS solicitor's conclusions. Unfortunately, commonsense rarely comes into play on gun related issues -even toy guns. So we now have the very real prospect of a possible future court case, probably at great public expense, to determine whether a toy gun which fires lightweight plastic balls at a muzzle energy of about one joule is the legal equivalent of a real sub machine gun capable of firing real lead bullets. Let me save them the trouble - Airsoft guns are toys, and toys like them have been available in this country for at least 40 years (when I was a boy). One strange aspect of all this is that the CPO advised Sussex Police NOT to provide details of the forensic report to the owner of the Airsoft guns. In other words, they didn't want him to know WHY they regarded the Airsoft guns as Section 5 weapons. Now why should this be? If there was truly a matter of public safety involved here, surely they should tell him the problem immediately, in order that he could destroy or disable the Airsoft guns, and inform his customers so that any previously unknown `danger' could be eliminated. Odd, don't you think? It would be interesting to find out how many deaths have resulted from the misuse of Airsoft guns in Sussex in the last year I'd hazard a guess that the answer is none, and there were probably very few serious physical injuries, if any at all. I would also hazard a guess that over the same period there have been dozens of serious assaults - and possibly deaths resulting from the use by criminals of REAL banned firearms and even the misuse of everyday household objects such as kitchen knives, bottles, tools, etc. Perhaps Sussex police have already successfully caught all the perpetrators of such crimes. For if they haven't, they could surely not justify the time, manpower and expense of trying to get a toy defined as a prohibited lethal weapon. If you own an Airsoft gun or are an Airsoft skirmish player or you are considering taking the sport up, please don't let this story put you off or spoil your enjoyment of what is, after all, a harmless pursuit. All other shooting sportsmen and women have had to cope with the same sort of pressures for decades and it hasn't stoppe us! It may interest you to know that similar Police claims regarding Airsoft guns goes back almost twenty years, and that written evidence is available from HM Customs, the Department of Trade & Industry and Home Office forensic sources, all classifying Airsoft guns as legal. Where did we get this evidence? From a Sussex based company selling Airsoft guns. -- Wasn't it sussex police who got a prosecution on someone who owned a Crosman revolver some years ago that led to CO2 powered guns requiring FACs? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] <> I should also like to point out that prior to 1930something or other, there was no law regulating the misuse of drugs. Prior to 1970..or thereabouts.there was no breathalyser law. Prior to 1968 there was no offence of burglary or twoc Prior to 1950 something there was no offence of carry an offensive weapon Prior to 1312 or whatever there was no such thing as a breach of the peace Prior to 1993 there was no Child Support Agency Prior to 1960 something we weren't in the EEC In the1700s we had the South Sea bubble, tulip mania and a royal family who liked to wear tights (the men that is) Oh, the good old days. When men could go shooting whilst high as a kite on opium, get pissed, carry a flick knife and screw a bird without being bankrupted by the government, then have a fight on the way home. All in the same day as well. Sheer bliss. What a beautiful society. <> Do me a favour. I risk my bloody pension posting on here. IG -- What statistics there are do show a much lower level of crime prior to the Firearms Act 1920, with firearms at least. Statistics for London are reasonably comprehensive. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Web Site of interest
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Take a look at http://www.kleasen.org.uk > >Now, I see that a gun club eventually shopped this guy. Good for them. >Yes, it was outrageous that the Police gave him a certificate. No excuses >there at all. Total incompetence. >However, some of the contributors here would consider that it was quite OK >for him to have firearms. >In particular, Peter Jackson seems to advocate freely available firearms, >which would mean that Monsieur Kleasen would be entitled to possess anything >he wants. >I would be interested in the views of the panel on this charmer. >He has, I believe, now been deported back to the country of his birth. I >wonder if he is entitled to possess firearms back there? Anyone enlighten me >on that one? So many people like to use the American comparison, it would be >interesting to know how they would treat this socially inadequate perverted >murderer. >IG Steve, & IG, Minus Steve's remarks, allow me the following. The website ref'd above has some interesting things to say. From what I can determine -- through the 'journalistic fog' that passes as press, it seems that Kleason is some kind of psychotic personality. Okay, you scored one, IG. But I'll tell you this: I have to wonder why it took so bloody long for the various clubs to oust him. Here in the US, in the several loose associations that refer to themselves as 'clubs', all it would have taken is one such threat, and the man would have been history to the group. We don't take threats lightly -- especially where firearms are concerned. And -- a very BIG 'and' at that -- how did manage to get any kind of license under your fool proof system? I mean, if as you say that _you_ can detect the bad apples, what was the excuse that time? Sloppy research? Do you guy's let just any moron into your nation? And then have the unmitigated temerity to complain about it?!! Now, in the matter Barton MP Shona McIsaac, I have to say that she is an alarmist, mentioning as she does "Dunblane and Hungerford" as reasons to act like some fluttering ninny when one loose marble is found rolling around. Seems to me that she's a likely a case for a close look. Mind if I ask why a crime camera hasn't been placed appropriately close to her residence? Let's look carefully at your proposition that an armed society would be a dangerous society. I recall that the US was just that at one time, and it was even safer then, than now with the multiple layers of cop, super-cop, ultra-cop, mega-cop (and god knows what other kind of hyphen cop). Imagine that! A country without any firearms laws, and no cops but the county sheriff and his entourage. The US was a pretty peaceful place, until the dullards back east decided it would be a good idea to imitate the Europeans and the Hessian ideal. Why is it, do you suppose, that bad ideas catch on faster than really good ideas? It wasn't until the early 1900's that firearms laws started to cause all manner of problems. Well, actually, as I think about it, it was in the mid to late 1800's with all manner of 'Black Laws' abounding to oppress the slaves and freed slaves. But that's another story, although it is most definitely corollary, since the only people who had trouble with those laws were the one's who were HIGHLY REGULATED under them. Sound familiar? Without the law, there was no problem; whereas with the laws there arose a problem. An armed society is most definitely a polite society. And, a community of few laws is one where there are the least number of law breakers. I wonder why that is? -- Pointing out nutcases who have gotten licenses just underlines what a fallacy the licensing system is, IMO. Doesn't support the argument of regulation one jot. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-ECHR ruling
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] At the AGM of Historical Breechloading Smallarms Association (HBSA) at the Imperial War Museum, Lambeth, London, on 20th November, it was reported that:- The claim for loss of profits pursued in the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) by MPC on behalf of the firerarms retailers and dealers had been declared inadmissible on the grounds that there was not a reasonable expectation that the firearms in question (pistols) would remain permitted to be legally owned by private individuals indefinitely. The case for the Dependent Industries (e.g. bullet makers etc.) is yet to be heard, but it now seems unlikely that that case will be admissible as the same argument would apply. Please note that no supporting documentation was produced, so I am reporting what has been said from memory and my notes. We shall have a discussion about this, no doubt, but it seems to me that the Government's case has been strengthened considerably by this ruling and the question our legal experts should be asked to comment on is whether the JFS case now stand any chance of success. Alex Hamilton -- I don't know but I always thought a suit in the ECJ stood more chance of success than the ECHR anyway. However, I don't understand this ruling because there was more to the suit than just loss of future business. There were gun clubs that were not compensated for the loss of their property for one thing. I have to say this is the most bizarre ruling I have seen, of course there was a reasonable expectation they would stay legal, on that basis no-one would ever start a business if there was an expectation it could be illegal tomorrow. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate Holders
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think this debate has run its course. I cannot, in all honesty, be bothered to repeat myself all the time by responding to individual posts. I have clearly stated my position, which is universally disagreed with. (Venomously and vehemently I might add!) I would say that some of the contibutors do themselves no credit. I find personal jibes insulting, (weasel words etc et al) but, then, if that person is incapable of articulating an argument, I suppose school ground invective takes over. Every time I voice an opinion, there are howls of outrage. I realise now that is because I am corresponding with entrenched views, minority views and a number of radical views. I have tried to point out the stance of the police and the public at large, but again, most correspondents don't want to know. All I get is stories about how crap the police are, how corrupt they are, how incompetent, etc etc. I dont mind, but it takes the value out of any debate. I have even been blamed for the way the Met behaved at the visit of the chinese premier! lol. That took some beating! (as did the practical shooters one!) News for you boys. Shooters that hold your views are a minority group. There are more people go to see a single premier league football game than share your views on firearms. Parliament isnt going to change anything for that number of votes. Contrary to what Steve states, it is not the strength of the views, but the number of people who are prepared to place their vote on the basis of a single issue. Instead of blindly lashing out at every authority figure, take the time to think what is required to gain political credibility. There can only be one answer to that, and that is a united front. We will never, ever have that in this country, because all the organisations fight each other. If it was agreed by some wonderful means that, say, BASC would be the overall representative body, there would be howls of outraged indignation from people who want to carry bazookas for self defence. Similarly, if the people here and from the SA bulletin board got there way, I would be howling because I dont want to see complete freedom of movement of firearms. Does anyone else see this? Hmmm.no, perhaps not. BTW, to those that think I am corresponding here on an official basis, do yourself a favour and see your doctor. Paranoia is treatable. And for those that are being wound up, take a chill pill and settle down. This is a computer screen. Treat it as such. IG -- It is the strength of the views that counts, you are 100% wrong on that one, because a poll may say 80% of people support the laws but of those people few will base their vote on it. However, if you're a shooter, you are far more likely to take the candidate's view of guns into account when you vote. This has been demonstrated in elections all over the world. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-what the law should be
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Somewhere around here I have the Home Office report on the setting up of a National Firearms Licencing Authority. The figures were enlightening but it was judged to be too expensive, however that was about 8 years ago and the fees for a FAC or SGC have risen dramatically since. If I remember my figures they would indicate an FAC fee of around L50 even on todays prices for staff, etc. As for IG's comments on who should or should not have guns yes I have a view and its not that everyone should have unfettered access. Deep down we all know that that could never be the case. Some controls would be necessary even if it were proper checks on background (for a criminal record or mental health problems). Personally I think we should be looking at a variety of approvals for different classes of weapons, from shotguns, hunting and target weapons at the lower end of the scale to an equivalent of concealed carry permits on request (if certain criteria were to be met), even private possession of fully automatic weapons (again given certain criteria). Large sections of the population don't want to own guns so they don't have to but for those that do then the current situation is a farcical use of police resources as are many of the provisions of the Firearms Acts. e.g. If I can't prove reasonable use I can't buy a .22 rifle but I could set up a minature rifle range. Perhaps not a good example but it begs the question as to how the rest of Europe manages without our systems. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate Holders
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] <> I wouldn't have thought it would have been anyone else. Did you report him and was he thrown out of your club? IG PSFunny you should say that, but the most irresponsible bit of behaviour I have ever seen came from a civilian gun owner etc etc etc yawn. -- Well if you're that bored I have a hole in the roof our range an AFO put there that you can patch up if you want. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-US Immigration
From: "N. L. Cobb", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nigel, and anyone contemplating immigration to the US-- According to Senator Gordon Smith's office, current US immigration law requires that: a) An applicant can establish that he/she is engaged in certain occupational activities vital to the continued well being of this country - medical doctor, nuclear scientist, aeronautical engineer, etc., or b) An applicant can establish that he/she will invest a minimum of one million (US) dollars in a business located in the United States. Otherwise lawful immigration is a near impossibility (unless, of course, the immigrant can establish that he/she will be a major money contributor to the Clinton/Gore Democrat party.) Needless to add, this law has been enacted during the Clinton/Gore Administration. Norm PS: have located a gun-friendly (or at least less anti-gun than the UK today and the US of the future) country. Details available off-list. -- It wasn't Clinton who came up with this, it was passed in 1986 although the regulations have been changed numerous times. The only way to immigrate into the US that is relatively straightforward is to marry a US citizen. There are immigration lotteries in some countries but not the UK. The immigrant investor bit above is complex, you have to bring in at least $1 million, or $500,000 if the Dept. of Labour has identified the area you're moving to as impoverished. However, you must employ at least ten US citizens. But, and it's a big but, if you bring in enough money and invest it in someone else's business or property, the INS will investigate to see whether the investment indirectly leads to the employment of ten or more US citizens. This is how rock stars and so on immigrate to the US. I have to say a know people who've gotten into the US under the immigrant investor provisions. The INS has a tough time enforcing it because no-one can hire ten people straight off the bat, so the INS has to check back with you. But if you have five employees they're unlikely to deport you if it means putting five people out of work. You can get work permits to get into the US, the best one is the self-employed worker permit, for people who would not ordinarily work for another such as dentists for example. But it has to be renewed every year, there has to be a need where you set up shop, and you have to remain engaged in that business. The number of visas granted to people under (a) is miniscule, you have to be someone really special to get one. You can always claim political asylum, that's how a lot of people stay in the US but it's much harder now the cold war is over. You can also immigrate if you have an immediate relative who is a US citizen, but the application process can take ten years or more. This is the "family reunification" programme. Another way of getting into the US is an intra-company transfer, but this only applies while you work for that company. My uncle worked for DuPont for many years in Delaware, and had to leave when he wanted to change jobs. Steve. (who spent three hours on hold with INS several years ago to get this info.) Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Mohammed Al Fayed
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mohamed al Fayed put up this offer earlier this year, holding a similar level of respect for most ministers, shadow ministers and senior MPs, to that held by shooters, hunting folk, truckers and anybody else who has been alienated by HMG. The chief difference is that he's got buckets of cash, and can therefor attempt to do something about it with a bigger financial stick than we have. You could probably contact him via Punch, details from www.punch.co.uk , or via Harrods. Tim -- What's the party called? "The let-anyone-immigrate-who-has-loads- of-money-party"? Not that I actually have a problem with that view, I think Canada has the best system of immigration. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Animal rights tell MSPs dog hunting ban 'cruel'
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ananova, 21/11/00 Animal rights campaigners have delivered a damaging blow to the bill aimed at banning fox hunting by claiming it could encourage cruelty to animals. The Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals made the admission to MSPs taking evidence on a controversial private members bill to outlaw hunting with dogs. James Morris, speaking on behalf of the society, told the Rural Affairs Committee that banning the use of terriers underground could cause unnecessary suffering for orphaned cubs whose mothers had been shot. "If you do not shoot the vixens for a period then the cubs will be old enough to survive," he told the committee sitting in Edinburgh. Mr Morris said that would be cruel as they would be left underground to starve. He said: "If any animal was shot, then I think the cruelty would be greater if you leave the cubs to die." He added: "As the Bill stands, I fear that we would have to support allowing terriers to go underground. Some underground activity would be necessary to avoid cruelty to the cubs." The comments were a blow to supporters of the Bill because one of its key principles is that hunting dogs should be banned from going underground. The blanket ban is based on the fact dogs have been involved in fights with adult foxes while pursuing them underground. If the Bill succeeds it will outlaw the use of footpacks and terriers for underground work as well as mounted hunts, which have attracted the most public attention. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-AFO selection
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] <> Because each force has its own procedures, and I am not prepared to go through them all! Nor do I want to start a thread on the lines of 'you should do this, in America they do that, I know a policeman who was mad, how can you justify, etc.' But it will happen, sigh. OK, here goes. You asked. In my force, each applicant has to undergo an interview and an assessment. Background checks are not necessary as there are no criminals allowed in the force here. The application is subject to a satisfactory reference from the officers supervisory officers. If the assessment is passed, then an initial firearms course takes place, of 6 weeks duration. Qualification shoots must be passed each week of the course and the officers tactical awareness must come up to standard. The assessment covers things such as temperament, manual dexterity, peripheral awareness, reactions, etc etc. The officers are continuously assessed and train for 2 days ever 6 weeks, in addition to training for various specialist roles. People like me do the assessments and provide the training. They must also be advanced drivers in order to crew the ARV's. Before we go on with this, I want to point out that I will not enter into any correspondence on this, as it will go on forever and, quite frankly, I cant be bothered. I am quite sure that there are plentry of experts who can blame me for doing things wrong. Equally, there will be plenty of others who can answer for me, as they will know someone who has a friend who once spoke to an ARV crew, etc. IG -- How often do the officers have to qualify, and how many rounds do they shoot per year (roughly) do you reckon? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Animal rights activists get upset, for a change
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] <).>> I take my hat off to this one! Anyone who can write a thesis on cartoon characters and somehow include a jibe (good natured or not!) at me is far to clever for me to argue against! I am not worthy! IG Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I doubt the Metropolitan Police is relaxing its rules to the extent that they would accept people who had actually served prison terms, and cetainly not three years or more, or any crimes of violence sufficient for a prison term. Having only seen the press coverage of this I do wonder what offences the Met would accept. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-The Gun Control Network
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> We have at least two subscribers who are in that constituency, either >> of you been to see your MP about the ban, chaps? >> >> Steve. > >I can see this as not being a particularly good idea. We >may have all the best argumants, but after a community >has had something like this happen to it (and I know that >sounds very TV "sound bite'ish") you can't expect people >from it to judge things in an unbiased way. It's exactly the >problem we had in the first instance in that you just can't >argue against someone who has had their child murdered >by a deramged gunman, it dosen't matter how good your >argumants are they just aren't going to accept it and to >be honest it perfectly understandable given the >circumstances. > >Jonathan Laws >-- >I'm not suggesting that they do organise a protest, I just >wondered whether their MP was responsive to the argument >(which I seriously doubt). > >Steve. Steve, & Jonathan, Let me say this just once, and I won't bother you with it ever again. Your course of action is yours to take in this affair. The frame of mind that you express above is just the one that the GCN is wanting you to take: you have been effectively cowed. They have succeeded in their quest to silence you -- forever. They want you afraid to face the angry parent. That is what their fondest wish is. That is their secret weapon: emotionalism. If you are to win, you need to be an Admiral Nelson in the face of the Armada of lies and half-truths. If you want to overcome this madness, you have to take on this trial of fire and face those parents head-on, in whatever confrontation that may happen. It won't be a pretty sight, but if you can show those people that their children were in effect murdered by the laws of your nation and by the attitudes of the people running the likes of the GCN, then you will have shown them what the real problem is: incompetence on the part of people who were supposed to administer a government program with integrity, and they muffed it supremely, blaming all the innocent firearms owners in the process, and by people who have illogical and whimsical goals. If you can show them that up until the first laws which governed the possession of firearms in your nation that firearms related crime was extremely low, and essentially non-existent, that it is the morass of regulations which have allowed such events to transpire, then you will have opened their eyes to the truth. But you have first to challenge them to know the truth. Hiding inside your house and pretending that it will all go away is not the answer. Confrontation, and exposure of the truth will upend this GCN apple cart. The sooner you get the facts straight, the better. Of course, before you go, it would pay to have all of your facts in order on a pamphlet, and know your arguments by heart. You can expect that the opposition WILL be as well prepared with a pack of lies. To the victor goes the spoils, and the victor does not back down at all. The ball is in your court. Don't let it gather too much moss. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate Holders
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] <> Pure paranoia again. Did I say that I thought you would offend? Or implied it? Let me look.h..no, I dont believe I did. Since when have we got to the point of construction of the police state which says that police officers cant find things disturbing? IG Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Animal rights activists get upset, for a change
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are some good hunting cartoons around already, particularly an old Donegan: A large mounted stag's head hangs over a fire place. In front stand two gentlemen in evening dress, holding drinks. The stag has a great toothy grin on its face and on gent is looking up at it saying "I'm not too proud of that one. He thought I was taking his picture." You fix the processing of .gifs or .jpgs through the gateways, and I'll start working on a cartoon strip... - I suppose there's the website though... - whilst occasionally indulging in anthropomorphism in animals ( - and traffic cones come to that - ), I am also all for seeing more high velocity lead characteristics in animals, either if they are pests, or more especially (preferably as well) if they are to end up on my plate surrounded by vegetables and gravy. Tim Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-NRA-ILA FAX ALERT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] NRA-ILA FAX ALERT Vol. 7, No. 47 11/22/00 (EditorÆs Note: This weekÆs FAX Alert is being transmitted tonight, as, NRA will be closed on Thursday and Friday in observation of the Thanksgiving Holiday.) NRA-ILA EVCs LEAD THE CHARGE THIS ELECTION SEASON The 2000 elections showcased the most intensive grassroots effort ever undertaken by NRA-ILA. The main goals of its efforts were simple -- to register pro-Second Amendment voters and to make sure gun owners were actively involved with the campaigns of pro-freedom candidates. Leading the charge for ILAÆs grassroots efforts were the more than 375 NRA-ILA Election Volunteer Coordinators (EVCs) working in congressional districts nationwide. EVCs acted as the liaisons between NRA members and gun owners and pro-gun candidatesÆ campaigns. Simply put, EVCs were beating the bushes for the Second Amendment -- at gun clubs, ranges, shooting events, and gun shops. Our EVCs recruited thousands of new political volunteers and registered thousands more new pro-liberty voters. Through their work, thousands of gun owners gave countless hours of their time to the campaigns of candidates who support the Second Amendment -- distributing literature and yard signs, working on phone banks, walking precincts, and turning out the vote on Election Day. Here are just some of the many highlights of the activities undertaken by the EVCs: In Pennsylvania, an EVC and his fellow volunteers distributed more than 500 candidate yard signs and more than 2,500 pieces of literature during neighborhood walks; In Oklahoma, one of your EVCs was credited with providing the support for a pro-Second Amendment candidateÆs come-from-behind victory in the primary election; In Florida, an EVC recruited more than 200 new NRA-ILA Volunteers; In Indiana, one of your EVCs organized a busload of volunteers to travel to a candidate debate and support the pro-gun lawmaker; In Florida, an EVC recruited a volunteer for a campaign outside his own congressional district. This volunteer took two weeks off from work to help the campaign full time. The campaign made him an Honorary Staff Member. In key battleground states, EVCs were integral in the promotion and on-the-ground organization of NRAÆs "Get Out The Vote" rallies featuring NRA President Charlton Heston, NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre, and ILA Executive Director James Jay Baker. Giving the EVCs additional resources in the way of newly-trained and energized campaign volunteers, ILAÆs Grassroots Division conducted 50 Grassroots-Election Seminars in key states and districts nationwide. These seminars transformed NRA members into savvy political activists, empowering them to register pro-gun voters, conduct and coordinate literature drops, distribute campaign yard signs, and of most import -- turn out the pro-gun vote on Election Day. NRA-ILAÆs grassroots election efforts, spearheaded by the EVCs, once again showed that the engine that drives the NRA machine is its impressive corps of more than 4.2 million dedicated and active members. PRESIDENTIAL UPDATE The saga surrounding the Presidential race in Florida continues. The latest news at press time for this Alert is that the Florida Supreme Court has unanimously ruled that the manual re-counts of select, Democratic-leaning counties can be accepted by the Florida Secretary of State, and these results must be submitted to her office by Sunday, November, 26 (or if her office is closed on Sunday, by Monday, November 27). Stay tuned! Please note the NRA-ILA Grassroots DivisionÆs new hours are Monday-Friday, 8:30 a.m.-5:00 p.m. E.S.T. Have a Safe and Happy Thanksgiving! Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> . I ask on >> the basis that there are offences which would disqualify one from holding an >> FAC or SGC. Would the same offences be allowed by applicant to the Police >> ranks? > >From the limited reporting of this I have seen one would >have to say yes. I think that theft is one of the crimes >that the met will accept you after having comitted an >offence that could potentially debar you from holding an >FAC for life. So theoretically you could be arrested by an >armed Met cop who could never legally hold an FAC. > >Jonathan Laws. Steve, & Jonathan, A critique of our times? When the of citizens in a nation are so scandalized by crime, that the remaining number of those qualified to serve in an office of public trust is reduced such that the 'criminal class' must be appealed to in order to sustain the requisite numbers of the 'enforcement class'. How interesting. -- Who wants to be a copper, all those nasty shooters criticising you etc. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-airsoft guns
From: nick royall, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Some local authorities may be imposing their own rules by virtue of planning laws or possibly via the environmental health officer. Some councils are prone to do this in an attempt to stop "firearms" being sold in their feifdom. An example of planning law being used is insisting on separate male and female staff toilets where a gunsmith works from home as a sole proprietor. I can think of others. The 1824 Vagrancy act can be used to stop people looking in your shop window if applied using the same warped logic. Nick Why me? Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The last count the London Evening Standard did there were an estimated 300 murderers walking the streets of London who'd never been convicted. You can estimate the relative rates of conviction for other crimes. The London police are to that extent ineffective and you can reasonably estimate the same situation exists around the country. Various Cybershooters have pointed out the very many cases of police corruption reported in the media. IG appears to be behaving in a way similar to the tobacco companies - looking at the evidence and flatly denying its existence. The tobacco companies deny reality for financial reasons and so do the police. The total number of demented mass-murderers with firearms in the UK in the past century is TWO. Ryan should have been stopped by the police after his first murder and wasn't. Hamilton appears to have been an active paedophile for over 20 years - that means he was a serial rapist of little boys, it's not just a personal preference - and the police certainly didn't stop him. IG's making a career of estimating people's "dangerousness" with firearms is clearly an antisocial waste of public money. The concept is an invention of the police force for the purposes of ensuring continued well-paid employment. What actually kills and harms people and hence can reasonably be said to be dangerous is listed in the Stationery Office's publication giving annual deaths by cause and being deliberately killed with a gun by someone else is a very long way down the list. IG should face the fact that he's being personally dishonest in his arguments and that the UK police force are ineffective and generally corrupt in a number of ways and that the "there are always a few rotten apples in a large organisation like the police" line of argument is NONSENSE. Their present influence in our society is pernicious and things need changing. Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org -- Just one correction, there have been a lot of other mass murderers this century who used firearms in this country, they just haven't gotten the press of Ryan and Hamilton. One of them was Barry Williams who was briefly a member of my club (until he was turfed out). He shot dead five people and was committed under the Mental Health Act for about 22 years afterwards. There was another nutter who stole his father's shotgun and went on a rampage shooting 17 people in 1990 in Monkseaton, he only managed to kill one though. He is currently committed to a secure hospital. Also there was another nutter who shot dead his family (I think four or five of them) in 1969 with an SLR (he had an FAC for). He was also committed under the Mental Health Act until about 1993. When he got out he was okay for awhile but someone found out about his past and he got depressed, borrowed a neighbour's shotgun and committed suicide. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Animal rights activists get upset, for a change
From: "Brian Toller", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Like for instance, Bugs Bunny's creator (Mel Blanc) wasn't so >vociferously anti hunting as to whore-out his creation to the anti's. Slightly off topic and picky but Mel Blanc was only responsible for the voice, who actually created the character is uncertain. It would be difficult to find any more liberal use of firearms than the early Warner Bros cartoons though, and all for comic effect. As opposed to Mr Disney who's contribution to the debate was those rotten hunters who shot Bambi's mum. Brian T Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
