CS: Misc-Police Corruption Website

[Norman]

From:   Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Hi!

The UK Police Corruption Website has relocated
offshore and is now at:
http://www.policecorruption.org

Looks interesting. I think IG would meet his Waterloo
there...

Regards
Norman Bassett
drakenfels.org


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[Norman]

From:   Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

This is from IG to me privately and posted here with
his permission:

"NB: <>>

IG: Yes, and the result was the Police strike of 1919,
after false promises by the government about pay and
pensions went unmet. This in turn led to the creation
by statute of the Police Federation which exists today
under the same rules as prevailed then.
Then there was the 70's and 80's and 90's where the
Police were used as strike breakers.
1977.Firemans strike. Resulted in the Edmund
Davies enquiry. Huge pay rise to stop officers
claiming income support, etc.

1984.Miners strike. Resulted in better conditions
of service.

1990's...Prison officers and ambulance strikes.
Resulted in a kick in the gonads in the Sheehey
report, the withdrawal of rent allowance and the
introduction of performance related pay. (not yet
implemented, but on the way) Worsened conditions of
service, no allowances, administrative dismissal,
reduction of the burden of proof at discipline
hearings, no access to industrial or employment
tribunals, half pay if on the sick for 6 months, no
pay if over 12 months, never mind why, but they wont
pension and its a discipline offence to have 2
incomes..etc etc.

SO...the cynic would say that successive
governments have used the police to achieve their
objectives and have now abandoned us as worthless."

NB: Police corruption is a part of a more general
political corruption and that needs to be borne in
mind when examining the political side of police
activities.

I think that a simple LIST of what's being complained
about and what incidents and government decisions have
led us to today's situation would be very helpful. We
tend to do a lot of referring to incidents like the
Stephen Waldorf "yellow mini" shooting without a clear
idea of what was involved.

Regards
Norman Bassett
drakenfels.org


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[info]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

IG,
Look what I dug up... The mysterious missing page! This is ancient history,
though no-one else got it all. I can't send it you on my revoked FAC because
as you know, they aren't returned to the previous owner, and besides, I
don't have your address.
---

Turf Fraud Scandal
or Trial of the Detectives

This notorious corruption scandal in 1877 resulted in the reorganisation of
the
Detective Branch into the C.I.D.

A rich Parisian woman, Madame de Goncourt, became the victim of two English
confidence tricksters, Harry
Benson and William Kurr, who persuaded her to part with ú30,000. Scotland
Yard were
called in, and Superintendent
Adolphus Williamson employed a bright multi-lingual Chief Inspector,
Nathaniel
Druscovich, to bring Benson back
from Amsterdam where he had been arrested. Druscovich seemed to find the job
surprisingly difficult. Sergeant
John Littlechild and two others were sent to catch Kurr, and were repeatedly
foiled
by his moving on just as they
expected to arrest him. Eventually they caught up with him in Edinburgh, and
he
stood trial and was convicted.

Scotland Yard began to wonder why the arrests had been so difficult, and
Benson and
Kurr began to explain.
Inspector John Meiklejohn, a deeply corrupt character, had been in Kurr's
pay since
1873, accepting large sums
of money to tip him off when his crimes were about to lead to his arrest.
Meiklejohn had offered Druscovich the
opportunity to borrow money from Kurr to repay his brother's debts, and thus
Druscovich was also implicated, as
was Chief Inspector Palmer, who appears to have been duped into going along
with
his colleagues.


The Trial in Progress at the Old Bailey

The three were sentenced to two years in prison, and the scandal nearly
wrecked
Williamson's career. Although
his integrity was unquestioned, his supervision of subordinates seemed
wanting, and
following the Committee of
Inquiry, Howard Vincent was given the opportunity to reshape the Detective
Branch.


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption - Correction

[Norman]

From:   Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

A CORRECTION to my last posting. The Peace of
Brest-Litovsk was signed on 3 March 1918, not in 1917
as I stated. The peace negotiations started after the
Bolshevik Revolution of 17 November 1917 (it's called
the "October" Revolution because that was the
Russian-style date).

You can look at the actual thing and associated
documents on:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/forrel/1918rv1/blmenu.htm

It's interesting that the Blackwell Report (available
on cybershooters.org) which was the precursor to the
1920 Firearms Act, was originally commissioned on 27
February 1918, surely in full knowledge of the general
progress of the war and of the Brest-Litovsk peace
negotiations' possible impact on it, and delivered on
15 November 1918.

There are FACTS available from which to argue and they
are accessible with a little trouble taken. I think
the general exchange of opinions on police corruption
is healthy, but not necessarily getting us anywhere
because it's more of an argument than a
factually-supported debate. To comprehend the full and
comprehensive horror of the situation requires a list
of newspaper and government reports on the various
incidents involved.

IG is fighting his corner doggedly, but I don't think
there's a great deal to support some of his
contentions  and I think the history of the police
force also resembles a pit of snakes covered with a
heaving blanket. 

When you think about it, police corruption is a
sub-set of a more general British government
corruption.

Regards
Norman Bassett
drakenfels.org


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[Jeremy]

From:   Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>Yes, you are right!
>Bugger.
>IG

Yes I believe that was covered in the Vagrancy Acts as
well (or at least display of the equipment) :-)

Regards

Jerry


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<<>>>

Is that all?
A quiet sleep little village by comparison to where I work.
Why, only yesterday there was an elderly woman parked on a double yellow
line. Mind you, she did have a disabled badge on her windscreen.
4 of us held her up with CS, then gave her a ticket EACH.
That was loads of points for us on our performance indicator charts.
Because she had a badge, she will plead not guilty and go to court. When we
have to attend, it will be EXTRA points on our appraisals! Thats a whole
months worth of armed robbers!
Anyone familiar with the forms we give out to people who we search? Under
PACE?
There is a box titled 'reason for search'.
Common reason put down by disgruntled cops is ''P.I."
P.I.= Performance Indicator. In other words, a mark on the league table that
keeps the boss off your back.

IG of Dock Green


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<<>>>

Oh God.

Read the whole of that post please.

The reason for mentioning that list of laws was to illustrate that there are
more laws to break nowadays, therefore crime figures are bound to be higher.
How on earth even you can turn that around is quite fascinating but boring..

IG


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Yes, you are right!
Bugger.
IG


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[Tim Jeffreys]

From:   "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Ah, there we go, we can have a Christmas Cybershooters' safari, lead by IG
as the Professional Hunter, with his advice for the most suitable gun and
load; the selected game being: drug dealer; crackhead; armed robber;
lethal-joyrider; hot burglar; and armed loony (including any authorised
person who has thrown a mental shoe).

Top prize: to be mounted and stuffed by some of the iffier inmates of your
elected maximun security prison.

Tim.


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[E.J. Totty]

From:   "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>Just a suggestion . . .>>
>
>Whats a ho-down?
>Do we need banjo players?
>IG


Steve, & IG,

Well, actually, it is spelled 'hoedown'.
It is a party for square dancing, and other more earthy
pursuits.
And, yes, the banjo is definitely an instrument that
is found at one, including an empty earthen ware jug (the moonshine
kind), a scrubbing rack, a fiddle -- or violin, a guitar, one or another of
percussion instruments, a really good sense of humor, and most
definitely some corn squeez'ins (white lightening).
Yeee Haw!
-- 
=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=
=*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it.  =*=
=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=

ET


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[Jonathan]

From:   Jonathan Spencer, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>Prior to 1950 something there was no offence of carry an offensive weapon

Minor nit, Ian.  Surely you remember the Vagrancy Act of 1824 (or was it
1842)?

--Jonathan Spencer, firearms examiner

"Justice is open to everybody in the same way as the Ritz Hotel."
Judge Sturgess, 22 July 1928


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[Tim Jeffreys]

From:   "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>Oh, the good old days. When men could go shooting whilst high as a kite on
>opium, get pissed, carry a flick knife and screw a bird without being
>bankrupted by the government, then have a fight on the way home. All in the
>same day as well. Sheer bliss.

You've been to Rose Hill and Barton of a weekend, then? 

Tim
--
Actually I thought his comment about Gotham City was more amusing,
he must have a beat in a fairly safe area of the country, I
suggest he comes to Walsall on a Saturday night, or Blakenhall
or Lozells.  Within 1000 yards of my office there has been
one murder, two attempted murders (one of whom was a WPC),
one armed robbery, at least two shootings and more assaults
that I care to mention.  Within a mile there was a smack dealer
who was ambushed by two guys with sawn-off shotguns and murdered
only a few months ago.

Welcome to the planet Walsolia, inhabited by beings who
breath carbon monoxide, live on heroin, and procreate in
the Inland Revenue building's car park.

Steve.


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[andrew]

From:   andrew, [EMAIL PROTECTED]



What? Are you implying that we have a law regulating the MISUSE of
drugs? 

Then again it could be used to justify another totally ineffective law;
"The law works because people only break it legally". If the laws
prohibiting certain types of drugs, their possession and use work so
well would you mind telling me why we pay Keith Halliwell (I think that
is his name) the "drugs tzar" to do?

You obviously don't go out much! The only things that have changed is
the use of opium and flick knives. The addicts here use crack cocaine,
quite openly and without any sign of embarrassment; that is in the city
centre at lunch time! Where I work we have several people who work as
door men on several city centre pubs (another sign that things are
better than in the past) and they confirm that they rarely see flick
knives: axes, bowie's, handguns, hammers, machetes and even a sword but
no flick knives. A bit too '50s retro!

I also mix with a lot of single parents both male and female and none
have anything good to say about the CSA. The most positive opinion I get
from those who deal with them is that the CSA is incompetent and
ineffective.



If you want to accuse me of being paranoid bear in mind that I , like
all law abiding gun owners, were brought up to have 100 percent trust in
the government and its agencies like the police. That trust, and that of
my family and friends has been eroded from one direction. As I stated
previously; Trust is a two way street, you cannot say to someone that
you do not trust them and expect them to trust you.


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Whats a ho-down?
Do we need banjo players? 
IG


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[E.J. Totty]

From:   "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>IG appears to be behaving in a way similar to the
>tobacco companies - looking at the evidence and flatly
>denying its existence. The tobacco companies deny
>reality for financial reasons and so do the police.
--snip--

Steve, & Norman,

Neglecting Steve's remarks:

Come now, Norman, you are comparing apples
and clams.
In IG's defence (as if he needed that), the tobacco
companies and the tobacco users deserve each other.
Anybody who consumes that stuff (and I did for
15 years), in the face of all of the press and evidence which
pretty much covered all the ground that needed to be covered
regarding health hazards, in quantities that are surely to be
deleterious to one's health, deserves to be ignored, and
disregarded as a fool. I smoked for 15 years, from the time I
was 15 until the age of 30. Amazing (isn't it?) how long it takes
one to learn a lesson? Smoking by itself, once or twice a day
(which was the usual back a long time ago) isn't considered
deleterious to the healthy person. The Ad men did us in by
inducing the young and impressionable to go 'whole hog' and
do it all the time.
Maybe we should sue the ad agencies?
I'll let IG answer the other stuff.
In all due respect to yourself, the matter is that as
Steve has stated.
There are some things which are quite beyond one's
control.
-- 
=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=
Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it.
=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=

ET


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CS: Misc-police corruption

[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Good question.
I would like to think that would be the case.
As I said..I would LIKE to think

The police service is so bloody PC now,  the slightest opportunity to show
that they arent racist is jumped on and publicised for all to see. It
actually has th eopposite effect in th eeyes of most people I speak to.

So, I would like to think that action would be taken.in my force I
am pretty sure it would be. Can't speak for elsewhere tho.

IG


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[E.J. Totty]

From:   "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>Oh, the good old days. When men could go shooting whilst high as a kite on
>opium, get pissed, carry a flick knife and screw a bird without being
>bankrupted by the government, then have a fight on the way home. All in the
>same day as well. Sheer bliss. What a beautiful society.
>
>>
>Do me a favour. I risk my bloody pension posting on here.
>
>IG
>--
>What statistics there are do show a much lower level of crime prior
>to the Firearms Act 1920, with firearms at least.  Statistics
>for London are reasonably comprehensive.
>
>Steve.


Steve, & IG,

S, you guys really did have lots of fun, back in
Merry ol' England, didn't ya? 
It was never that way here in the US, even when we wuz a
pack of recalcitrant colonies! We were too sexually represses for
that kind of fun.

Of course, that was back when you guys REALLY knew how to
let your hair down .

Ya know, IG? Maybe if you cops were to have Friday night
ho-down, and 'let it all hang out', you chaps would gain a sense of humor!
Just a suggestion . . .
-- 
=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=
Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it.
=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=

ET


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Of course, if you put into place the methods of recording crime that are
used nowadays and couple that with the modern communications systems that we
have, then that would sort out the reasons why general crime figures were
much lower. A working class person in Whitechapel wasnt going to bother
reporting to the police that he had been robbed of a penny whilst walking
home from the tavern. Neither were there as many offences capable of being
recorded as a crime. (there wouldnt be any burglaries, for example, nor
thefts of or from motor vehicles, or twoc, or abstract electricity, or
public order offences other than breach of the peace, OR any firearms
offences, or any drugs related offences, etc etc)

How many firearms were in public hands prior to 1920? (In comparison to,
say, 1995?) If there was no regulation, then that can't be known. I know, if
guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns.

The point is that society has changed since then.
Crimes, generally, were pretty unsophisticated and by and large petty in
comparison to today. In our current society, the criminal is willing to go
to greater and greater lengths to obtain what he or she wants. The media
image of armed criminality is widely copied. Uzis and Mac10's are designer
firearms for drug dealers and their minders. AK47's are widely available
from the former eastern bloc countries. We know there are virtually no
border controls at other than the main ports, so these weapons flood into
the country.
The point is, therefore, that the lower incidence of firearms related crime
prior to the 1920's has nothing to do with the lack of regulation of
firearms.

IG
--
A fair point, but it can't be argued that tighter controls
have led to less crime either.

As far as I have been able to piece together the reason the police
started refusing to issue FACs for personal protection after WW2 is
because armed crime was so rare that the police felt no-one had
sufficient justification to require a firearm.

I'm still a bit sketchy on the exact details but it appears that
the end came in 1954, when a jeweller was brutally murdered in
London during a robbery.  Another jeweller applied for an FAC for
personal protection, and the police turned him down, pointing
out that it was such a rare event that he could not possibly
have a satisfactory "good reason".  In 1953 there were 17 recorded
armed robberies in London and in 1954 there were 4.  The police
thus established this policy and it has stayed with us ever
since, evolving into a myth about how people shouldn't have
firearms for self-defence because it's too dangerous, despite
the level of offences of armed robbery, assault, and murder
skyrocketing since 1954 (in 1993 for example there were about
4,000 recorded armed robberies in London).

This myth is partially behind the motivation for ever tougher
gun laws, although the indication is that despite the armed
robbery rate dropping recently, the rate of the most serious
offences is still moving upwards.

Steve.


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[Norman]

From:   Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The last count the London Evening Standard did there
were an estimated 300 murderers walking the streets of
London who'd never been convicted. You can estimate
the relative rates of conviction for other crimes. The
London police are to that extent ineffective and you
can reasonably estimate the same situation exists
around the country.

Various Cybershooters have pointed out the very many
cases of police corruption reported in the media.

IG appears to be behaving in a way similar to the
tobacco companies - looking at the evidence and flatly
denying its existence. The tobacco companies deny
reality for financial reasons and so do the police.

The total number of demented mass-murderers with
firearms in the UK in the past century is TWO. Ryan
should have been stopped by the police after his first
murder and wasn't. Hamilton appears to have been an
active paedophile for over 20 years - that means he
was a serial rapist of little boys, it's not just a
personal preference - and the police certainly didn't
stop him.

IG's making a career of estimating people's
"dangerousness" with firearms is clearly an antisocial
waste of public money. The concept is an invention of
the police force for the purposes of ensuring
continued well-paid employment. 

What actually kills and harms people and hence can
reasonably be said to be dangerous is listed in the
Stationery Office's publication giving annual deaths
by cause and being deliberately killed with a gun by
someone else is a very long way down the list.

IG should face the fact that he's being personally
dishonest in his arguments and that the UK police
force are ineffective and generally corrupt in a
number of ways and that the "there are always a few
rotten apples in a large organisation like the police"
line of argument is NONSENSE. Their present influence
in our society is pernicious and things need changing.

Regards
Norman Bassett
drakenfels.org
--
Just one correction, there have been a lot of other
mass murderers this century who used firearms in this
country, they just haven't gotten the press of Ryan
and Hamilton.  One of them was Barry Williams who was
briefly a member of my club (until he was turfed out).  He
shot dead five people and was committed under the Mental
Health Act for about 22 years afterwards.

There was another nutter who stole his father's shotgun
and went on a rampage shooting 17 people in 1990 in
Monkseaton, he only managed to kill one though.  He
is currently committed to a secure hospital.

Also there was another nutter who shot dead his
family (I think four or five of them) in 1969 with
an SLR (he had an FAC for).  He was also committed
under the Mental Health Act until about 1993.  When
he got out he was okay for awhile but someone found
out about his past and he got depressed, borrowed
a neighbour's shotgun and committed suicide.

Steve.


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CS: Misc-police corruption

[niel fagan]

From:   "niel fagan", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> >Does anyone know any person who has justifiably had a cert revoked? I 
>wager
>that no one will admit it here! (as it seems the overiding view is that
>anyone should be able to carry anything they want at any time and at any
>place.)<
>
Yes, and I was part of that process.
I also know of several people refused membership due to their unsuitable 
atitude, thus they couldn't even apply for a cert.
One of those was of eastern ethnic origin, he would not communicate with 
other members (he spoke better english than most of us) and the club sec. at 
that time suspected there was something amiss, the local police however 
would not confirm his suspicions, though the man seemed to be known to 
them...That was in the 70's, these days the club would be in court accused 
of discrimination no doubt..
IG would the police support a club these days if the applicant was from an 
ethnic minority and in the clubs opinion not suitable?

Niel.


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[Jeremy]

From:   Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

We have had members removed from Clubs of which I have
been a member, because they were unsafe or became
unsuitable in our opinion.  Some joined other clubs but
most just left the sport.

One was a little embarrassing as the member concerned
was sacked from his job (by another member), became
unsafe in both attitude and due to a medical condition
he did not take care of enough, and his attitude became
both unreasonable and at times offensive.  His certificate
was subsequently revoked.  The real embarrassment was his
employment as a Special Constable when he first joined the
club, they later dismissed him and it was the same force
that subsequently revoked his FAC.

Regards

Jerry


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[Jeremy]

From:   Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I doubt the Metropolitan Police is relaxing its rules to
the extent that they would accept people who had actually
served prison terms, and cetainly not three years or more,
or any crimes of violence sufficient for a prison term.

Having only seen the press coverage of this I do wonder
what offences the Met would accept.

Regards

Jerry


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[E.J. Totty]

From:   "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>>  . I ask on
>>  the basis that there are offences which would disqualify one from holding an
>>  FAC or SGC. Would the same offences be allowed by applicant to the Police
>>  ranks?
>
>From the limited reporting of this I have seen one would
>have to say yes. I think that theft is one of the crimes
>that the met will accept you after having comitted an
>offence that could potentially debar you from holding an
>FAC for life. So theoretically you could be arrested by an
>armed Met cop who could never legally hold an FAC.
>
>Jonathan Laws.

Steve, & Jonathan,

A critique of our times?
When the of citizens in a nation are so scandalized
by crime, that the remaining number of those qualified to serve
in an office of public trust is reduced such that the 'criminal class'
must be appealed to in order to sustain the requisite numbers of
the 'enforcement class'.
How interesting.
--
Who wants to be a copper, all those nasty shooters criticising
you etc.

Steve.


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[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

I should also like to point out that prior to 1930something or other, there
was no law regulating the misuse of drugs.
Prior to 1970..or thereabouts.there was no breathalyser law.
Prior to 1968 there was no offence of burglary or twoc
Prior to 1950 something there was no offence of carry an offensive weapon
Prior to 1312 or whatever there was no such thing as a breach of the peace
Prior to 1993 there was no Child Support Agency
Prior to 1960 something we weren't in the EEC
In the1700s we had the South Sea bubble, tulip mania and a royal family who
liked to wear tights (the men that is)

Oh, the good old days. When men could go shooting whilst high as a kite on
opium, get pissed, carry a flick knife and screw a bird without being
bankrupted by the government, then have a fight on the way home. All in the
same day as well. Sheer bliss. What a beautiful society.

<>
Do me a favour. I risk my bloody pension posting on here.

IG
--
What statistics there are do show a much lower level of crime prior
to the Firearms Act 1920, with firearms at least.  Statistics
for London are reasonably comprehensive.

Steve.


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[andrew]

From:   andrew, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

What is this about "popular mythology"? Apart from anything else these
characters occasionally have a falling out and start shooting one
another which sometimes is serious enough to make the local news. This
is apart from the occasional burst of gun fire in the evening! And no
it's not fireworks.

I didn't say that the police actually allowed them to go armed but that
criminals don't seem to be inconvenienced very much by the law or its
enforcement. You say that you don't agree with people having
uncontrolled access to firearms: well I hate to burst your bubble but it
goes on all the time, it is just that it happens with people not
bothering with the expense and rigmarole of doing it legally. I should
also point out that prior to 1922 (can stand being corrected if the date
is wrong) british subjects did have unrestricted access to firearms and
carried them for self defence, can you point to any research that shows
that this was a problem (except to criminals and governments of course)?
Or is it your contention that this country was in a state of complete
crime ridden anarchy until the likes of yourself came along and
established a new world order?

As far as judging character to establish if a person is fit to LEGALLY
own a firearm, I see the fact that the person did not decide to take the
easy route but instead chose to remain a law abiding citizen and hold
themselves up for scrutiny, even to the extent of allowing their
confidential medical records to be inspected, as being a pretty fair
indication of their good character. As to the value of referees; I
pointed out a few months ago, upon his conviction, that if a certificate
holder were a patient of Dr. Shipman then they could have had their
application countersigned by Britain's biggest (known) mass murderer! 

I would again caution anyone who is attracted to the idea of passing
judgement on his fellows the parable about the qualifications needed to
cast the first stone applies. Now it's not such a nice game is it!

Let me make it quite clear that I am not anti police nor anti- laws. I
just want the police and the law to target the wrong doer and prevent
them causing harm whereas I see no part of the firearms act or its
enforcement having any effect on anyone except the law abiding. 

I would like to thank you though for starting this discussion, whatever
your motives or whether officially sanctioned or not.


< First of all, this is popular mythology that has come to be believed
due to repetition amongst people with axes to grind. 
It is simply not true that drug dealers etc. are allowed by the police
to carry firearms without penalty. Before you repeat this mythology,
take the time to do some research and find out the truth. 

CS: Misc-police corruption

[Tim Jeffreys]

From:   "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>Does anyone know any person who has justifiably had a cert revoked? I wager
that no one will admit it here! (as it seems the overiding view is that
anyone should be able to carry anything they want at any time and at any
place.)<

It would be a fine line between whether the FAC lapsed, or whether it was
revoked, but the person chucked out by a club I belong to no longer has it
as far as I know. With a bit of effort, I could find out for sure, or IG
could contact me off list and use his resources to do so.
The person concerned seemed reasonable enough to start with - a bit
exuberant perhaps - but he took a couple of years to cause the club major
concern.

Tim


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[admin]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>In the end as I said earlier you only preventing someone from owning
>firearms legally. You would not be allowed to express you opinions about
>someone who owned a firearm illegally as they would be a criminal and
>would therefore have rights!

Absolutely... Give it a few more years, and there will be two options.

1. Give up shooting, as it will all be banned, and you don't want to break
the law.
2. Break the law. But heck, at least pistols will be available again!

The 3rd, I suppose, is to leave this dire country, but that assumes
that Gun owners don't replace Arsenal fans in the "Not allowed to
leave the country this week, despite not even being a suspect in a
crime" list. Plus, the government can stop us leaving by giving us
all summary convictions for some firearms offence. That stops
you getting into the USA, even though what you got done for isn't
an offence over there!

Nigel


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[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Well, you would wouldnt you. This is a constantly recurring one as well,
when someone doesnt like a few unpalatable home truths, this is a convenient
little argument to throw out.

If yopu think anyone has been hooked, then read the posts again. It is
pretty fair to say that all the subscribers here are more than capable of
sticking up for their beliefs. I am pleased, however, with your agreement
that many of the comments are hasty and unwise. An ally at last!

People with convictions joining the met:

I am not aware of the type of convictions that are under consideration. The
generla school of thought in my area is that it is a publicity stunt to tell
the HO how short of manpower the met is. If the offences involve dishonesty
or violence, I do not know of any of my colleagues who would share the same
air. So the answer to your question is, I suppose, I dont know but I dont
think so.
If you or anyone else gets wound up by that or make a hast or unwise
response, pass me my hat and a knife and fork.

IG


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[Tom Charnock]

From:   "Tom Charnock", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

IG
I have followed your lengthy and mountainous volumes of comment on this
thread.

Like another poster I have to wonder if this is just to incite responses,
wind-ups, or as the US say, "trolling".  As you declare your position then
perhaps not the latter.

However, you go to great lengths spouting about the Law, the Police and the
shooting person.  You have not forgotten that you are supposed to serve the
public as (Star Treck style) a prime directive.

You acknowledge that the actions taken by the police in respect of the
Chinese visitors demonstrators was wrong.  But that police action WAS
against the public interest, their right to peaceable demonstration.

My simple question was, "at what point do you, and fellow police officers,
draw the line in over-riding the public rights".

I guess from your weasel worded reply that there is no line, that whatever
you are told to do, you, and your fellow officers will obey.

If nothing else worries ordinary people in this country, then that blind
obedience to Orders from above should.  I expect a weasel worded, "but it's
my duty to do as I am told" reply (my dad heard that style of response 50
odd years ago).

Of course some bright spark from a behavioural science university could do a
"controlled experiment" issuing randomly chosen police with electric shock
machines to be applied to randomly picked public and see how far they would
go with Orders from above.  I have a feeling that in today's society, the
option to refuse would not feature as the Officer would lose pension, salary
etc.

Why are there Defence Lawyers? well to pursue actions taken by police
officers that they themselves understand are wrong, but are Orders from
above and need to be carried out, never mind the publics rights.

If you agree that there are limits, then how are they defined, by each
Officers personal opinion? how he/she feels on THAT day?   arbitrary to say
the least.

In one of your threads you ask as to what are the parameters of acceptable
crimes that are OK for people to hold a FAC / SAC.  Of course, the repost
to this is to ask the Police Officers, just how far do you accept orders,
before you say NO?

Surely you have some sort of guidelines from your Federation on this?  If
so, what did they say about the Chinese demonstrators and the wrongful
police action against them?  I guess NOTHING as it was only a "small
personal infringement of freedom".

A step along a road to where???

Tom C

PS  for the "file" I have always believed in the death penalty for murder,
nothing to do with if it was guns used.  Just based upon just the Bible.
And yes I have drawn a line, in business, it lost me my job and a six figure
salary 10 years ago, but it was on a point of belief.  Old fashioned? Yes,
but to my personal standard.


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[jonathan]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> < people who have FAC's are unpleasant, objectionable and
> potentially dangerous. It had nothing to do with those who
> had applied and been refused or have in your view applied
> for "spurious variations". etc etc>>
> 
> I repeat. You only see what you want to see. A small number of people.

Do I? This is what you originally posted

"Having worked with licensing for some years, I now 
realise the amount of
unpleasant, potentially dangerous and thoroughly 
objectionable people that
own firearms certificates. Before I hear the howls of 
protest, let me state
that these form about 5% of the total in the area that I 
work."

This quite clearly states that 5% of the FAC holders in 
your area are "unpleasant, potentially dangerous and 
thoroughly objectionable people". Your words, not a case 
of me reading anything that isn't actually there. 

> I make NO aplology for being outspoken.

Neither do I.

> Look at the responses yourself. One moment you are slagging the government
> off for everything, the next you are saying that the laws should be applied.

If the Laws were applied properly the Government 
wouldn't need to introduce new ones to persecute 
shooters with.

> You dont really know what side of the fence you want to sit on.

I do, quite clearly.

> I stand by the fact that 5% of the people I deal with are unpleasant,
> objectionable or potentially dangerous. Often all 3. 

But you didn't say 5% of the people you deal with, you 
said 5% of FAC holders, thats not the same thing.

The law requires me to
> make a judgement. Like it or not, that is the way of things in this country.
> Accepted, there is total freedom for people to be objectionable and
> unpleasant and still own a firearm. Not so for the potentially dangerous.
> The point is this. Numbers do not matter. 

But numbers *do* matter, 0.2% is a world away from 5%

There are people who should not,
> in any circumstances, be allowed near a firearm.

Agreed!

> I do my job and try to ensure that this is the case. I make no apologies for
> doing so. After all, even Steve tells me that this is the job of the police,
> so I don't expect any criticism for ensuring the safety of the public. The
> law requires evidence before a revocation is made. Not merely 3rd hand
> hearsay. It is very difficult to get that evidence.

I thought that appeals against revocation or renewal or 
grant could indeed take into account hearsay?

> Does anyone know any person who has justifiably had a cert revoked?

As I have pointed out, Yes.

 I wager
> that no one will admit it here! (as it seems the overiding view is that
> anyone should be able to carry anything they want at any time and at any
> place.)

No it isn't, you are being overly dramatic here.

Jonathan Laws.
--
Section 44 appeals can take into account hearsay and the police
in my appeals used a hell of a lot of it.  Judges aren't too
impressed when they do though.  In fact, the police don't
even have to tell you why your certificate was revoked, and
you can turn up to court not having the vaguest idea what
is going on.

Steve.


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[jonathan]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> . I ask on
> the basis that there are offences which would disqualify one from holding an
> FAC or SGC. Would the same offences be allowed by applicant to the Police
> ranks?

CS: Misc-police corruption

[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

I repeat. You only see what you want to see. A small number of people.
I make NO aplology for being outspoken. 'Look, the Emperor isnt wearing any
clothes!'
Look at the responses yourself. One moment you are slagging the government
off for everything, the next you are saying that the laws should be applied.
You dont really know what side of the fence you want to sit on.
I stand by the fact that 5% of the people I deal with are unpleasant,
objectionable or potentially dangerous. Often all 3. The law requires me to
make a judgement. Like it or not, that is the way of things in this country.
Accepted, there is total freedom for people to be objectionable and
unpleasant and still own a firearm. Not so for the potentially dangerous.
The point is this. Numbers do not matter. There are people who should not,
in any circumstances, be allowed near a firearm.
I do my job and try to ensure that this is the case. I make no apologies for
doing so. After all, even Steve tells me that this is the job of the police,
so I don't expect any criticism for ensuring the safety of the public. The
law requires evidence before a revocation is made. Not merely 3rd hand
hearsay. It is very difficult to get that evidence.
Does anyone know any person who has justifiably had a cert revoked? I wager
that no one will admit it here! (as it seems the overiding view is that
anyone should be able to carry anything they want at any time and at any
place.)

IG


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[Jim Franklin]

From:   "Jim Franklin", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

On the basis that IG feels free to pass judgement on the character of
members of the shooting fraternity, I feel just as free to state that he is
just a "wind-up artist", bent on provoking hasty and unwise comments by the
use of provocative statements. I cannot understand why subscribers rise to
the bait like ravenous trout and get hooked in the process.

I would however like IG's comments on the prospects of the Police Service
accepting into their ranks individuals who have committed offences. I ask on
the basis that there are offences which would disqualify one from holding an
FAC or SGC. Would the same offences be allowed by applicant to the Police
ranks?

Jim Franklin
Orpington
KENT. UK
PGP key on request


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[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

This is a common thread, so lets deal with it.
First of all, this is popular mythology that has come to be believed due to
repetition amongst people with axes to grind.
It is simply not true that drug dealers etc are allowed by the police to
carry firearms without penalty. Before you repeat this mythology, take the
time to do some research and find out the truth.

CS: Misc-Police corruption

[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Why dont you ask them?
I can only speak for myself. What do you want me to say?
Its a nonsense question anyway, which invites the response: what is your
position on the mass murderers who have used firearms to kill?

We have had this debate before.
IG


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[Tim Jeffreys]

From:   "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>I also have trouble with the concept of "I trust you with this but not
that" as steve experienced with variations for collecting. In my case I
had a sec.1 shotgun that I was prohibited from using for clay pigeon
shooting! I fully understood the law and the home office guidance but
not only was I disturbed by the insane logic expressed by various
officials but I was also deeply disturbed by the fact that they did not
see anything wrong or bizarre about the situation. <

I think we all find this situation rather silly. With the qualification that
some people will not be physically capable of controlling some firearms, why
shouldn't non-prohibited persons use any kind of firearm (or any other
thing) if there is no additional danger resultant from it's use in suitable
conditions?

>You ask if we know of any way to judge character, are you asking members
of this list to get into denouncing shooters in the same way as the
police in other authoritarian regimes use public denunciations of
individuals and groups oppress those they don't agree with? I wouldn't
dare to pass judgement on another persons character. If I did, give me a
reason why I shouldn't start with you? Or do you only see yourself as
the stone thrower? <

Personally, I have always regarded it as the duty of every club member to
judge the character of fellow shooters to a limited extent.
As an instructor it tends to happen automatically, watching the novice
victims that you are prodding and poking into position, but up to the point
where everybody is comfortable with everyone else, you will always be
keeping an eye on your fellow shooters' behaviour, however subconsciously.

Poor old IG just has to do it to complete strangers faster and more
overtly...

Tim
--
Talking about variations, West Midlands Police allow me to
possess 9mm ammunition for target shooting, but they won't
let me collect it, because, wait for it, I have a gun in which
I could use it, so it couldn't possibly be safe to let
me collect it, because I might violate the condition by
shooting it.

Oh yes, I'm a really dodgy character I am.

Steve.


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[Tim Jeffreys]

From:   "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

As for examples of iffy FAC holders, a club I belong to chucked one out some
years back: - not a very responsible individual, who brought some unsavoury
friends in on a few occasions and left large numbers of "inaccurately placed
holes" after each visit. He was definitely one of the
there's_something_about_him types, though this took some time to surface.
When his membership expired and no attempt was made to renew, the local
constabulary were asked to look after his pistols (which had been stored in
the club's armoury) until such time as he might be deserving of their
return.

Tim


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[jonathan]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> I *know* its not rubbish, but I include applicants in this figure, as well
> as people who make spurious applications for variations, etc. (you know,
> when you get as far as checking out good reason for possession, you find
> there actually isnt one. Things like that).

Firstly, this all kicked off with your statement that 5% of 
people who have FAC's are unpleasant, objectionable and 
potentially dangerous. It had nothing to do with those who 
had applied and been refused or have in your view applied 
for "spurious variations". 
 
Steve posted the figures for denied renewals and revoked 
cert's and it dosen't even approach 5%. Even if we 
assume that every one of the 340 revocations and 
refusals to renew were due to the reasons you state (and 
many of them are not) the figure is just under 0.2%. This 
again leads to the questions of a) if 5% of FAC holders 
really are unpleasant, objectionable and potentially 
dangerous then why are they not having their tickets 
pulled and b) why aren't they actually being dangerous 
with their guns? I mean 5% of 172,000 people is 8600 
and if even 1% of them started acting dangerously we 
would have certainly have heard about it by now, in fact 
we wouldn't have any FAC's left to be arguing over.

Jonathan Laws.


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[Tom Charnock]

From:   "Tom Charnock", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Quite agree, it was appaling and embarassing to see it.
Some things are indefensible.
IG


I G

If we assume that your thoughts on this may be held by other officers, then 
why was it executed?

Does this mean that your fellow officers, if given ANY order, will follow it 
to the letter, irrespective of their thoughts as to it being un-reasonable 
action??

Where do YOU (and your fellow Officers) draw the line??

Tom C


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[andrew]

From:   andrew, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Well IG, it looks like your key board took a hammering over the weekend.



Why do I need to be a member of any particular group if I have the view
that people should be able to get on with their law abiding lives free
from harassment from pointless legislation and the ignorant opinions of
jobsworths? I have difficulty reconciling the fact that whereas I put up
with all the BS connected with owning firearms legally the local drug
dealers get no hassle at all over their firearms or how they use them!
Not only didn't they lose their pistols in 1998, the law specially only
prohibited legally owned small firearms, but the only time they do not
carry their pistols is when they have a court appearance! The above also
applies to members of northern Ireland terrorist organizations. Can you
imagine the response to a request from an RUC firearms licensing officer
to inspect the security of the various terrorist arms dumps.

I did not call you a nazi did I! My point was that you are making
personal judgements on people based on your own beliefs and experience
at the time. Not so long ago and in a place not so far away your
judgement as to what constitutes a good character would be very
different to that that you have now. It is because of the unreliability
of the judgements of individuals, no matter how well meaning, that we
have a judicial process involving magistrates, judges and juries and the
prosecution process is kept separate from the enforcement process. It is
also why criminals have rights! If you were dealing with a criminal and
you expressed your personal views about that persons character then the
any prosecution could be seen as being seriously flawed.

I also have trouble with the concept of "I trust you with this but not
that" as steve experienced with variations for collecting. In my case I
had a sec.1 shotgun that I was prohibited from using for clay pigeon
shooting! I fully understood the law and the home office guidance but
not only was I disturbed by the insane logic expressed by various
officials but I was also deeply disturbed by the fact that they did not
see anything wrong or bizarre about the situation. I also cannot see how
you can apply this selective trust to just legally held firearms; do you
remove the driving licences and cars from any of the victims of your
personal crusade? How about if they have children; do you have them put
into care?

On the wall of my living room is a print of a classic western painting
called "End of the Trail", the subject is a dying indian warrior on a
dying pony. A visiting firearms enquiry officer was very disturbed that
I had this picture as he didn't agree with the end-of-the-trail shooting
disciplines that were appearing and he told me that he would seek to
have the certificate of anybody taking part in these competitions
revoked! Of course this was just his personal prejudice, sorry opinion.

You ask if we know of any way to judge character, are you asking members
of this list to get into denouncing shooters in the same way as the
police in other authoritarian regimes use public denunciations of
individuals and groups oppress those they don't agree with? I wouldn't
dare to pass judgement on another persons character. If I did, give me a
reason why I shouldn't start with you? Or do you only see yourself as
the stone thrower? 

And I would be interested to if my views and the fact that I take the
trouble to express them make me a fit person in your eyes.


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[Janet]

From:   Janet L Jackson, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Dear Steve
I'm far from being a mathematician but can't resist a challenge -
the calculator applied to your figures gives refusals/revocations
of FACs in 1995 as 0.1975% and of SGCs as 0.001162%.  You didn't
want that to 10 decimal points, I hope...


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[DMBrundle]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<< (Member of the Insp. Meiklejohn fan club.
 A prize awaits the first person to tell me who this was. Answers on the back
 of a revoked FAC please. 1st prize is a night out with the drug squad. 2nd
 is lunch at firearms licensing). >>

Would this be the male half of the investigative duo in the MEIKLEJOHN & 
LEIDL mysteries?

Star of such novels as:


   1 - The Hamlet Trap (1987)
   2 - The Dark Door (1988)
   3 - Smart House (1989)
   4 - Sweet, Sweet Poison (1990)
   5 - Seven Kinds of Death (1992)
   6 - A Flush of Shadows (1995)


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[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Well, I'm sure you are in a better position than me to judge.

I *know* its not rubbish, but I include applicants in this figure, as well
as people who make spurious applications for variations, etc. (you know,
when you get as far as checking out good reason for possession, you find
there actually isnt one. Things like that).

Not a question of sounding catchy. 90% would be much more catchy!

I also doubt if you have the investigative resources open to me when
enquiring about people. It might surprise you to learn about the background
of some people that you think are perfectly OK. (I speak in general terms of
course. I am sure all of your shooting associates are perfectly fine and
upstanding citizens)

IG
--
So you're saying people who the police decide don't have "good reason"
for a variation (but hold an FAC) fit your list of being dodgy?

You must be joking.  All that means is that they don't fit into
whatever legal definition the HO have foisted upon your licensing
dept.  Otherwise they are probably perfectly respectable people.

We've had long threads on here about collecting.  I have been turned
down twice for collector's authority, so by your definition I must
be a dodgy person!

Steve.


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[relwell]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>If I saw the police force campaigning for
>interrogation under scopalomine, campaigning against
>"concurrent sentences", and going round actively
>saying that crime is wrong 


Scopolamine, was used in light doses used for interrogation, by Gestapo, and
(allegedly OSS/CIC:-) but reports are that it merely confuses the "victim"
who is thus not aware of being interrogated; but nor can he or she
distinguish between fantasy and reality, so will readily agree to the
suggestions of the interrogator. The outcome is depressingly like the
confessions extracted from people like Kisko:-(

Robert


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[jonathan]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> You just didn't listen did you?  IG DID NOT SAY WHAT HE HAS OR HASN'T DONE
> about the so-called 5%, but you have seen fit to condemn him without knowing
> the full facts - THAT IS MY POINT!!!and that is how those BASTARDS in
> power operate - congratulations, you are now a fully paid-up member of the
> plonkers society.
> 
> Chris

But you are missing  the main thrust of what I said. In the 
paragraph you quoted it was the figure of 5% I was 
questioning. I'm perfectly willing to accept that there may 
be a number of dodgy FAC holders, and I do know of a 
couple of very recent revocations, that im sure IG knows 
of, that if what I hear is correct are definatley warranted. I 
find a figure of 5% difficult to accept though as this 
ammounts to a rather large number of people in every 
force area. 

Given my own experiance of FAC holders and the number 
of dangerous or illegal acts that are perpetrated by them, 
I would have to say that the figure of 5% is definatley an 
gross over estimation.

Jonathan Laws.
--
In 1995 there were 172,150 FACs on issue and 740,200 SGCs
on issue in Great Britain.

There were 120 refusals to grant an FAC and 380 refusals to
grant a SGC.  There were 110 refusals to renew an FAC and
140 refusals to renew a SGC.  There were 230 revocations of
an FAC and 720 revocations of SGCs.

Someone do the math please.

Steve.


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[oddball]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

"OK, it's late and I can't be bothered to check out exact
numbers. But, lets think about it, how many FAC's are
there in the Country, a figure of 200, 000 could be
plucked out of the air. I don't know if it's right but I don't
think there are any less than that. If 5% of FAC holders
are not fit to hold said FAC's then that works out at
10,000 People. How many force areas are there, about
40? That means on average 240 people in every force
area are not fit to hold FAC's, if this is the case why isn't
IG doing something about it especially as he considers
them to be "potentially dangerous"?"




You just didn't listen did you?  IG DID NOT SAY WHAT HE HAS OR HASN'T DONE
about the so-called 5%, but you have seen fit to condemn him without knowing
the full facts - THAT IS MY POINT!!!and that is how those BASTARDS in
power operate - congratulations, you are now a fully paid-up member of the
plonkers society.

Chris


(wondering why we have got ANY shooting in this country at all!!)


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[jonathan]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> Come on guys - you are being totally unfair on IG - he has simply not stated
> WHAT he has done about the dodgy 5%, and you are assuming he has done
> nothing - don't condemn a man with insufficient information - that's how
> Tony Bliar and Jack Boot Straw operate

OK, it's late and I can't be bothered to check out exact 
numbers. But, lets think about it, how many FAC's are 
there in the Country, a figure of 200, 000 could be 
plucked out of the air. I don't know if it's right but I don't 
think there are any less than that. If 5% of FAC holders 
are not fit to hold said FAC's then that works out at 
10,000 People. How many force areas are there, about 
40? That means on average 240 people in every force 
area are not fit to hold FAC's, if this is the case why isn't 
IG doing something about it especially as he considers 
them to be "potentially dangerous"?

If you extrapolate the figure of 5% to include SGC 
holders(1.5-2M?), you have to conclude that there are 
thousands of psychocho's running around every force 
area, just waiting to perpetrate a massacre. If this is the 
case then it makes you wonder what the bloody hell 
people like IG are doing as far as administering the 
Firearms Acts goes?

No, this figure of 5% is just pure rubbish and IG knows it, 
he probably just chose it because it sounds catchy. If it 
were correct I certainly wouldn't be associating with this 
type of person and if it were right I would be getting rather 
worried, and I'm not. 

j.
--
It is plausible if you include all the people who are refused
a grant or had a certificate revoked but the reality is that
most of those are for technical reasons or health reasons
rather than because they are dodgy people, I reckon, but the
stats don't show that.

Steve.


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[jonathan]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> Kisko was wrongly convicted under circumstances which reflect very badly
> on those involved. Under your preferred system he would have hanged.
> Evidently you consider the accidental/malicious hanging of a few
> innocents a price worth paying. I do not.

Ah yes but this is a classic anti death penalty line isn't 
it? I mean it is certainly an irreversible penalty and 
therfore easy to equate it with wrong descisions. It's easy 
to say such and such would have been hanged if we had 
the facility availible at the time, whilst forgetting that the 
fact that we didn't might have actually played a part in 
their conviction in the first place. 

We have to rember that in all the years that we had 
capital punishment there was only ever one case where a 
phosthumous free pardon was ever granted that was in 
the case of Timothy Evans who was convicted of 
Murdering his wife(possibly Bentley but I can't 
remember). It was subsequently found that he probably 
didn't do it but probably did Murder his baby daughter, or 
was it the other way round? Can't quite remember. 
Anyway the presence of the death penalty seems from 
the historical record to be associated with fewer wrongful 
murder convictions rather than the many we seem to 
have these days. I mean, very few people are going to be 
prepared to either falsify or withold evidence in a capital 
case if the end result of a wrongfull executution could be 
themselves climbing the steps of the gallows.

Jonathan Laws.
--
We seem to have gone to being a police corruption list and
now a death penalty list - I always thought the classic
anti-death penalty argument (and the reason why I oppose
the death penalty) is that life in prison is worse.  The
problem is that people get out now after seven years or so.

The other argument that swung it for me is that it actually
costs more to execute someone because of all the legal
procedures than it does to keep them in prison for life.

Steve.


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[E.J. Totty]

From:   "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>In the end as I said earlier you only preventing someone from owning
>firearms legally. You would not be allowed to express you opinions about
>someone who owned a firearm illegally as they would be a criminal and
>would therefore have rights!


Steve, & Andrew,

What an outstanding point!

The citizen has no 'rights' and thence must apply for permission
to exercise a 'liberty', yet the a criminal is subject to a trial in defense of
exercising a right.
It is the most inconsistent application of law: How is it that a
person is arrested and tried for a crime, and can plead the exercise of a
right, yet a person who is yet a non-criminal cannot make application to
exercise the right the criminal may appeal for?
-- 
=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=
Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it.
=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=

ET
--
This is one thing that does nark me about the firearm
licensing system, you are guilty until proven innocent.

When I went to appeal the judge kept calling me the "defendant"
rather than the appellant which gives you some idea of their
mindset when you have the police one side and someone else
on the other.  The assumption is that the police are always
the good guys and whomever they are against are the bad guys.

Steve.


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[jonathan]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> IG
> (member of the Pierrepoint fan club)

Read "The Hangmans Tale" by Sid Dernley. He was an 
assistant who worked with Pierrepoint a few times. 
Interesting read. Got mine from a cut price book place in 
a well known covered market a few mins walk away, they 
had quite a few copies as I remember.

Jonathan Laws. 

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[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

I make no secret of the fact that I, along with every other officer I know,
detests the type of manipultive dishonesty that is described here. It is
unarguably corrupt and yes, it did go on. As far as I am aware, HMIC will
not accept the practise of gaining detections from prison visits anymore.

It has never been unlawful to kill someone in self defence PROVIDED THAT IT
WAS NECESSARY.
A coroner can return a verdict of justifiable homicide. Many, many instances
of that happening exist.

Your radical views have many things to commend them, but feasibility is not
amongst them.
Really, scopalomine! Whatever next! Before we know it, you will be wanting
to carry firearms for self defence!

As far as your assertion goes regarding drugs related corruption and
officers here, I AGAIN challenge you to cite an example that has gone
unpunished. If you have the evidence, or even 3rd hand information tell me!
I will deal with it!
(Do I detect a deafening silence here?)

BTW, I work for the Queen, not the public. You only pay my wages.  For
which I am grateful, but not as grateful as I will be when it turns to the
pension.  I can then pretend I was never a police officer and tell people I
was in an honourable profession, such as a registered firearms dealer.

IG
(Member of the Insp. Meiklejohn fan club.
A prize awaits the first person to tell me who this was. Answers on the back
of a revoked FAC please. 1st prize is a night out with the drug squad. 2nd
is lunch at firearms licensing).


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[AnthonyHar]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Norman Bassett writes, in the latest of his always-interesting reflections, 
<< And I think it would be a big step forward if the UK police accepted that 
they work for the public and not for the Home Office which trains them to 
regard the public as creatures from another world. >>
I know what you mean, Norman, but I think it might be a little paranoid to 
suggest police attitudes stem from training by the Home Office - an 
organisation which I would not trust to train anyone to do anything at all. 
No, I've always imagined that the us-and-them attitude is inevitable when you 
have a uniformed body of people set in authority over others: witness "The 
Authoritarian Personality", and psychological experiments such as the 
illuminating one where students were randomly assigned to be guards & prison 
inmates, with scary consequences - apart from the many dreadful lessons of 
history. I read a valuable book in the 1970s, entitled "Scotland Yard", and I 
wish I could remember the author's name... He spent several months 
accompanying officers of the Met, and witnessed the growth in new officers of 
the tendency to categorise civilians as "Chummy", i.e. the citizens who are 
supposed to be served by the police become just a mildly irritating 
nuisance...
In the course of my bachelor days I happened to have a couple of girl-friends 
(at different times, I hasten...) both of whom had been formerly married to 
policemen. They both reflected ruefully upon what they termed a "police 
culture" which they felt excluded not only them, but the public at large, and 
which contributed to the collapse of their marriages. This is just anecdotal, 
sure, but interesting. The relationship between citizens and whatever form of 
"police" they elect to have (or which is imposed upon them) is always going 
to need watching carefully.
Best wishes to everyone on this newly-restored list - Anthony


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[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Are you separating RFD's and cert holders?
Most RFD's that I know also have f/arm or SC's. The American murderer chappy
was both.

I suppose here is as good a place as any to point out the siege mentality
that exists amongst many of the subscribers here. Shooters are beyond
reproach, that is the common thread. Wake up. They aren't.
Every time we go to revoke a certificate, there is blind support from one or
other of the shooting organisations, who are rarely, if ever, prepared to
consider the argument from the police side and who will push a lost cause as
far as possible purely because they are anti police.
The unpalatable truth needs to be pointed out. As well as dodgy coppers, as
the popular but boring thread goes, there are dodgy shooters. Get used to
reality! I see them regularly!
And I do something about it, as well. It is insulting to suggest otherwise.
The 5% I quote includes applications for FAC's and SC's that are refused.  I
have no reason to backpedal, it is quite simply a fact that lots of dodgy
people are attracted to firearms! Why should that be a surprise to anyone?
I make no apologies at all for quoting the types of people I consider to be
unsuited. I was asked, and I told the person who asked. Boy, did it touch a
nerve! Too close to home for some perhaps?
IG
--
As the lawyer who defended John Hinkley told me, everyone has a right
to the best legal defence possible.  That is their right, regardless
of the crime they have committed.

I am talking from personal experience, having never gone shooting
with any of the RFDs I consider dodgy, I have no idea if they held
FACs or SGCs although it is a reasonable assumption that they did.

Steve.


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[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Don't disagree with that one.

Careful, though, Richard, you will be castigated, slagged and called nasty
names for agreeing with the filth!
Well, not totally agreeing, but agreeing a little bit.
You'll start getting the hate mail soon!
lol

IG


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[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Don't think, I know.
And am dealing with it! Its a rolling process though.get one out of the way
and another appears.
IG


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[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

A
<>

A: I am. And have been doing so for twice as long as you have been shooting.
Next question.

B: See A.
--
Well, if that's true I take back my earlier comments criticising
you.  'Nuff said.

Steve.


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[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Once again, the paranoia has re-surfaced with a vengeance!
I certainly never mentioned Hitler photos as you suggest. Once again, the
disturbing trend towards obsession with Nazi's has surfaced.I am
not even going to try to defend myself against things that I never said! Get
a grip!
(I have no problem with people worshipping Nazi's. I have no problem with
devil worshippers. I even have no problem with shooters!)
I presume that you are one of the inteligentsia who think that anyone, under
any circumstances, should be allowed to possess a firearm for any reason
whatsoever. In other words, you appear to be in favour of total freedom from
controls. Fine.
I ,unfortunately, along with many other millions of people, do not share
your views!

Do me a favour though, get your quotes right before you run away at the
mouth.
IG


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[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Where in heavens name did I mention practical rifle shooters?
Bloody hell, man, I shoot practical rifle. Where did you get this
from
IG
(Bewildered!)


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[Longsiberia]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Steve,
I do hope you realise I was defending shooters and you. I am disabled and can 
only manage prone rifle shooting (TR!) But just cos I can, t take part I 
still think we all have a right to choose what sport we take part in. As long 
as it is legal!!!

Tina


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[Mike]

From:   Mike Taylor, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Snip
>that the police have in the past accused innocent
>people and got them hanged.>>
>
>AGREED! At least have a referendum on it..
>
>
snip
I have no moral objection to capital punishment but can you really
dismiss a fatal miscarriage of justice so lightly?

In the case of Stefan Kisko he was convicted of raping and murdering a
child. He did 16 years inside as a child molester. Had the law allowed,
he would have been hanged.

The evidence that cleared him was available at the time of his
conviction. He was sterile, as samples taken from him at the time
proved. The rapist was not. The prosecution must have known.

He was a misfit but he was harmless. He confessed under interrogation.
So the forensic evidence was conveniently ignored. Under pressure to get
a result, people do many things they would otherwise not do.

It is unlikely to happen to you, IG. But if it ever did, I hope you
would go to the gallows with the same level of enthusiasm that you have
for hanging other innocent people.

In a referendum before his arrest, Stefan Kisko might have voted for
capital punishment for child murderers. After all, he wasn't one so what
would it matter?
--
We're getting way OT here but I have to say I've never been
much of a fan of the death sentence because most people who
receive it are penniless and you have to ensure they have a
thorough appeals process to remove any doubt as to their
innocence.  It's usually cheaper to lock them up for life.
Personally I think being locked in a cell for most of the
rest of your life is far greater punishment than being
sentenced to die, the problem is that life sentences often
relate to the life of an unhealthy cat.

Steve.


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[E.J. Totty]

From:   "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--snip--
". . . I now realise the amount of unpleasant, potentially
dangerous and thoroughly objectionable people that
own firearms certificates."


Steve, & IG,

Well, IG, I guess that qualifies you as some kind
of psychiatry professional, eh?

Just what, I'd like to ask, is your unique qualification
to denounce another citizen as being unfit to possess firearms,
other than the stated disabilities under your law?
And perhaps even more importantly, what are the
scientific criteria that you apply?
Should make interesting discussions for whatever
legislative body is involved to remove ever more citizens from
the rolls of 'firearms owner', by employing 'IG's Fiat'.


-- 
=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=
Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it.
=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=

ET
--
I have to say if IG is a licensing officer the police need
very little in the way of evidence to revoke a certificate, so
I find his statement a bit odd.  The Acts state that the
Chief Officer of Police must be satisfied: "that in all the
circumstances the applicant can be permitted to have the
firearm or ammunition in his possession without danger to
the public safety or to the peace."

Which is pretty broad.  If IG is aware of dodgy people with
certificates then it is fair to say the police haven't done
their job properly.

Steve.


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[Bippygee]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Would Ig like to give us examples of the five per cent of certificate holders 
to whom he objects?
Barry Woodward


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[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Dear Ant
My point exactly.
I am a shooter, and used to think that all shooters were great people.
Having worked with licensing for some years, I now realise the amount of
unpleasant, potentially dangerous and thoroughly objectionable people that
own firearms certificates. Before I hear the howls of protest, let me state
that these form about 5% of the total in the area that I work. That 5%,
however, colours the remaining 95%. All tarred with the same
brush.unfair, but thats the way it is!
Frustrating, isn't it?
We both know the realities of our respective groups, but are unable to get
people to see the wider picture!
IG

PS..No relation to Adam?
--
You don't own a firearm certificate, you hold a firearm certificate,
this is what I was told when I attempted to claim compensation
for loss of use of the authorities that I had paid for on
my firearm certificate when my handguns were confiscated.

Steve.


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[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Again, why let fact get in the way of a good rumour.
I quoted the oft repeated comments that are spouted by the rabid
anti-shooting lobby.
As the point seems to be lost, why not consider the reality of things. If a
rumour is repeated often enough, it becomes fact in the mind of the listener
or reader.
As I like to think that I am a fairly intelligent individual, I am able to
use my own experience of life, of people, of my occupation and when a little
common sense is applied, I find that the assertions that I repeated are
wholly innaccurate and mostly false. Nevertheless, I repeated them. If you
read the responses to that post, despite the fact that I made it abundantly
clear that these were RUMOURS, the respondees have, without exception,
considered that these are views that I personally hold, or consider to be
true.
Now then. As it has been written that 66.6% of police officers are corrupt,
going by the above experience, eveyone is going to take that as gospel, when
in fact it is total, insulting, feverish and rabid CRAP!
It does get really boring reading the ill informed comments on the police.
Fine, if there is something tangible and informed, but to foster comments
such as 'I have heard that ...' is a waste of time!
While we are at it, lets deal with some of the comments, no doubt believed,
that were made by Norman.

<>

Where in the name of creation did this come from?
lol
Its like me saying..'actually, bank managers are the most likely people
to possess illegal firearms'
Benefit of experience..real experience not rumour fed
experiencethere is not a problem with police officers having illegal
guns for self defence. Doesn't happen. Enlighten me if you know of something
that I don't, but try to be factual.

<>

The fraudulent clear up rates are a perennial bone of contention. The home
office decides what statistics will be used in clear up rates and in crime
recording figues. Instant reduction was made when attempted twoc was made a
summary offence with no power of arrest. The effect was..when I got
called to a damaged vehicle, (locks smashed, ignition ripped out, etc) I
would record it as a clear attempted theft of a motor vehicle. As the
criminal attempts act reduced the attempt to a summary offence, it was not
therefore part of the home office recordable crime statistics. The crime
figures fell overnight!

A far as clear ups go, this debate has always centered on prison and
offender visits. An offender who has been sentenced to a term of
imprisonment would be visited in prison, and would make numerous admissions
of crimes. He or she would make these admissions for a number of reasons.
They knew that no action would be taken against them, as they were already
serving a term of imprisonment. They were therefore making sure that there
would be no charges waiting for them when they got released. They often got
rewardscigarettes, chocolate, etc. (no, NOT drugs.) A day or so
talking to the police relieved the boredom of sitting in a cell. If you look
at the HMIC reports on every police force (available online from HMIC web
site) you will find all the information about crime statistics, including
the methods of compilation. Before running off at the mouth about things
like this, try doing some research about the real facts.

<>

No, 'fraid not. No one I know accepts in any way, shape or form any form of
corruption. If a bent copper is caught, he goes to prison. Rightly so. I
have never met an officer who would hesitate to take action against anyone
who is involved in any form of drugs related corruption. If you have any
evidence that officers are involved in this, let me know - anonymously if
necessary, or through a third party, and I will publicly and openly take the
most stringent measures to ensure the longest term of imprisonment is
imposed on the guilty parties. I have no problem with that.

<>

Personal opinion, fine, I can live with that. My personal opinion is that it
would be totally insane (and unfeasable!) to expect police officers in the
UK to be armed as a matter of course, whether on or off duty. We dont need
to be. Yet. Neither do we want to be.
Personally, I couldnt give a stuff about elsewhere. Why are we so besotted
with comparing the UK to elsewhere? We are here, not there, so do what is
required for us, not what suits America, Russia, Patagonia, etc.

<>

My opinion on this is that we dont need that either. The vast majority of
murders or offences of extreme violence are carried out by criminal against
criminal. If you are law abiding, the fear of crime is worse than the actual
likeliehood of being the victim.
Yes, someone can always say...'tell that to so and so who was raped, robbed,
murdered, etc'. The chances of them carrying a firearm and being able to use
it in self defence are slim anyway. Presumably you have heard about things
like 'action beats reaction', the continuum of force, ECHR (the right to
life), S3 CLA, c

CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[AnthonyHar]

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Ho hum. Here we go again. Shooters v. police...
Listen IG, I'm sure most of us think you're a perfectly decent bloke - after 
all, you go hunting, and clearly know a thing or two about ballistics, so you 
can't be all bad - but you just have to realise that the long-standing, 
persistent, authoritarian, damn scary anti-gun & anti-liberty attitudes of 
too many police officers simply means that to some extent you're all tarred 
with the same brush. Unfair, but that's the way it is. When I was a boy I was 
taught to trust and like the police; these days I don't. I do my best to keep 
contact with the police to an absolute minimum, and the same goes for a hell 
of a lot of people I know. Sorry.
Anthony Harrison
BTW you're no relation to Iggy Pop I suppose?


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[Norman]

From:   Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I was delighted to read IG's reply to my posting. I
had feared my informant was so accurate that NOBODY
disputed the assertion in any way at all.

I would not like to comment on the assertion that a
lot of shooters have illegal firearms, nor the
assertion that the UK police are the occupational
group most likely to possess illegal firearms for the
purpose of protecting themselves against the personal
malice of the criminals they are paid to pursue.

The matter of fraudulent police clear-up rates for
crimes like burglary has been extensively covered in
the national press and I don't see how IG can deny
that every member of the police is aware of what's
going on and presumably can live with it or we'd have
police demonstrations in Wembley Stadium protesting
about it.

Shooters are commonly ex-servicemen and have in fact
serially killed people in the course of their duties.

The expression "all X should be shot" is an extremely
common expression of a political viewpoint which most
of the people expressing it mean quite literally.
People are entitled to express their political
opinions.

The situation of UK police corruption deriving from
the expanding drugs market in the UK and mirroring
what has happened in the US is something I would have
thought was fully accepted.

As for insanity, I personally consider it insane that
policemen are being put on the street without sidearms
to protect themselves with and that they are not
expected, as they are elsewhere, to go armed at all
times in uniform or not. I consider it insane that our
government deny law-abiding people the right to carry
sidearms for their personal protection. I consider it
insane that our elected government deny the people the
possibility of executing criminals on the thin ground
that the police have in the past accused innocent
people and got them hanged.

I consider it absolutely beyond question that the
government and their agents the police have a vested
interest in preserving a certain level of crime in our
society, against the interests of the majority of the
citizenry, and that they deny honest people guns for
self-defence in pursuit of their anti-social "hidden
agenda".

Regards
Norman Bassett
drakenfels.org


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

Ho hum. Here we go again. Police v shooters.

The people i mentioned (tongue in cheek btw) would be able to defend their
ignorant and untrue comments equally as well as the ignorant and deceitful
rumour mongers who propogate the myth that 66.6% of police officers are
corrupt or do nothing about corruption.
Or perhaps neither of them could...
or perhaps one or the other is wrong?
or perhaps they are all wrong?
Phew

IG


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[E.J. Totty]

From:   "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>Moral of the story:  why let truth get in the way of a good rumour!
>
>Oh, and as I'm not new in the job (or anywhere else I suppose!) then I must
>be in a lowly positionso I can't know what I'm talking about..or
>else I am corrupt!  Now that what I call a no win situation. 
>
>IG
>
>PS Please excuse the sarcasm. The original post wasn't worth anything else.


Steve, & IG,

Interesting.
But then, what did these people expect when a whole class
of citizens were pushed into a corner? What kind of attitudes did they
expect to develop?
Historians of the future will, no doubt, view this aspect of our
respective cultures as a particularly xenophobic epic.
And make no mistake about it, we share a common bond in the
regards that our subculture is under attack for no reason at all save a
thinly veiled concern for 'the children'. Governments do not disarm
their citizens for no reason. I need not reiterate history.
The people who made the comments that IG is witness to, are
extreme bigots; and if they occupy any office of government, they are
particularly dangerous as well. I wonder: would they be able to defend
them in an open law court?

ET
--
It's always the old "one bad apple" reaction, just like
what happened to us after Dunblane.  There are bent coppers
about, I know a copper (who shall remain nameless for
obvious reasons) whose job is catching bent coppers, and
he is involved in a lot of PCA investigations.  His view
is that it varies considerably by force and quality of
training and so on.

Steve.


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CS: Misc-Police Corruption

[IG]

From:   "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>

As you might expect..lola few comments are worthy in response to
the above paragraph, which was probably written with absolutely no venom
dribbling onto the keyboard.

I have heard that shooters are all homicidal maniacs. Not a proportion, all
of 'em. I have also heard that almost one half of shooters own illegally
held firearms. Sorry, weapons. I have personally, with my own ears, heard it
said that shooters are not to be trusted with firearms (sorry, weapons)
because they just want to kill people. I do believe it has been rumoured in
the very best rumour circles, that target shooters are all sad anorak types.
Another thing, heard by a cousin of a friend of mine in a pub, spoken by a
man he didnt know and will never see again but was called Smith, was that
34.7 % of shooters hate the police! (this was whispered so it could have
been a mistake).

Moral of the story:  why let truth get in the way of a good rumour!

Oh, and as I'm not new in the job (or anywhere else I suppose!) then I must
be in a lowly positionso I can't know what I'm talking about..or
else I am corrupt!  Now that what I call a no win situation. 

IG

PS Please excuse the sarcasm. The original post wasn't worth anything else.


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[Norman]

From:   Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I just took a look at the policecorruption.co.uk site
- early days yet. The easiest way to avoid harassment
by people in the UK is of course to keep your files on
a US server.

I've heard estimates that one third of the UK police
engage in corruption of some kind - ie take bribes
from criminals, resell seized drugs etc, engage in
clear-up figure fiddling etc. That one third of the UK
police know enough about corruption going on to make a
complaint with a reasonable hope of success - but
don't because you make too many enemies that way. And
that the remaining third of the UK police are honest,
usually those new on the job and/or in lowly
positions.

The question of how many rotten apples it takes in a
barrel before you can reasonably make a judgement on
the whole barrel is an interesting one.

It's also interesting remembering back 25/30 years to
the American policemen visiting the UK saying that the
whole mess of narcotics-related corruption was coming
our way next, pretty inevitably. How true that was.

Dragging my sainted uncle into this (inevitably!) I
recall his comment that refusal to introduce
reasonable investigation methods like hypnosis derives
from the fact that at any one time half the members of
the Cabinet should have been in jail - usually for
some kind of a financial fiddle - and they don't
intend to get hoist with their own petard.

Regards
Norman Bassett
drakenfels.org


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