Re: was: Echelon-like resources..
Uh, first of all can we get rid of the part of the subject line that says "Durden lies"? (Particularly seeing how the quote attributed to me did not originate from me.) As for Chomsky lying, can you give us some specific citations? Did he lie about our support for Sadam Hussein? Our support for Indoesia? Our bombing of the sudanese pharmacuetical factory? Or the fact that Nicaruaga brought the US before the world court and won? Granted, Chonskty can be a little tiring on the ears, but my knee-jerk reaction towards your calling him a liar is that you misunderstood the citation. But then again, I could be wrong, so do give us some examples, eh? From: James Donald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources.. Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:11:12 -0700 (PDT) > > > > "Our overriding purpose, from the > > > > beginning through to the present > > > > day, has been world domination - > > > > that is, to build and maintain > > > > the capacity to coerce everybody > > > > else on the planet: nonviolently, > > > > if possible, and violently, if > > > > necessary. But the purpose of US > > > > foreign policy of domination is > > > > not just to make the rest of the > > > > world jump through hoops; the > > > > purpose is to faciliate our > > > > exploitation of resources." - > > > > Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney > > > > General From: "Trei, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The Sun is an alternative news magazine > which has been in print since 1974. > It's mammothly unlikely that they would > fabricate the interview out of whole > cloth, since Clarke would sue for libel > and/or defamation. On the contrary, this is standard routine communist behavior. They are always inventing fantastic citations, for example the much quoted "Intoxicating Augmentation" quote that Karl Marx attributed to Gladstone (then prime minister of England) which generation after generation learned scholars have learnedly cited as evidence that free market capitalism was bad for workers. Since Clarke is a public figure he cannot sue for libel, so he is a good peg to hang such a citation on. If Karl Marx could get away with attributing fantastic citations to the Prime Minister, "the sun" can certainly get away with attributing them to an attorney general. The enormous flood of such bogus citations make it unlikely that any one of them will be challenged. Look at Chomsky. Every few pages he has a similarly fraudulent citation, and no one ever sues him, even though in some cases one can check the materials he cites, and find that he is lying. Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: UK Censors, Shayler, Bin Laden
On Thursday 10 October 2002 13:13, Tim May wrote: > This is why posting articles on Usenet is usually superior to putting > them on a Web site in a censorious country (U.K., Germany, Saudi > Arabia, U.S.A., Canada, etc.). There are two advantages of web-based discussion fora over usenet: propagation time and firewalls. On the other hand, few discussions are so urgent that they need near-real-time reparte, and participants shouldn't be cruising usenet from work. > More generally, I've been watching the migration of many discussion > groups over to "Web-based forums" (or fora). Usually the migration > does not improve the discussion...it just puts dancing ads and cruft > all over the pages. I agree with your major point: usenet is overall better. It's a tool that was developed for one task, and accomplishes that task very well. The style-over-content types who want animated swirling fartknockers on their web-based discussion pages would probably be better off discussing interior design than programming problems or current politics. ... > Perhaps we need a new kind of structure, a more routinized form of > Web mirrors. Something that happens more or less automagically. Something like...Google? You can't count on their sweep schedule, but it does most of what you're looking for. -- Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel Vote Idiotarian --- it's easier than thinking
Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources...
Yo! I didn't write anything of the kind. Actually, this post mystifies me...even had I posted those quotations, as scary as they may be, I don't understand Anonymous' reaction to them (waitaminute...maybe I do understand...it's interesting to consider that the sender seems to have gone to some trouble to remain anonymous for a relatively banal post). As for "the point", as a newbie here (I was an optical network engineer from 95 to recently, now on $$$-street), I wanted to raise the issue that looking at the crytpography issue "statistically" may yield conclusions that contradict a more "linear", message-by-message examination of certain issues. For instance, I would be interested to see a response from the powers that be, if a credible grass-roots push were made to encourage everyone, from children to senior citizens, to use a lite form of cryptography (yes, such as in Lotus Notes) on EVERY message they sent. Or perhaps you've all discussed this before, but the responses I've seen so far don't indicate that. From: Anonymous <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Tyler Durden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources... Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:33:46 +0200 (CEST) On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:29:53 -0400, you wrote: > > "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the > majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is > conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the > masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 > > "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present > day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the > capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if > possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign > policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump > through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of > resources." > - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General Is there some reason you want to publish these bogus, uncitationed, false, propaganda quotations? Just adding to misinformation? Preferring to further downgrade the public discourse? Planting lies for subsequent citation as proof of something? What an asshole. _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources...
On Friday 11 October 2002 14:13, Trei, Peter wrote: > If anonymous were a person of character... Oxymoron, eh? Pseudonymity has many socially acceptable features. Anonymity has all of the practical benefits of pseudonymity and no additional advantages in a conversational forum such as cpunks. Anonymous persons (or dumbassbots; it's hard to tell sometimes) who snipe from behind the veil may be assumed to be cowardly jackasses. -- Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel Vote Idiotarian --- it's easier than thinking
US developing untraceable weapons
Theres no huge explosion associated with its employment, there are no pieces and parts left behind that someone can analyze to say, this came from the United States, explains an unnamed Lockheed Martin official quoted in Aviation Week and Space Technology in July. The damage is localized, and it is hard to tell where it came from and when it happened. It is all pretty mysterious. http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/26/24/news1.shtml Maybe we'll drop a Tarot card with Uncle Sam on it? http://www.counterpunch.org/stanton1005.html: Coincidental, no doubt, but one day after Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer's comment on putting a bullet into the sovereign ruler of Iraq's head, five US citizens in a suburb of Washington, DC, lost their lives in just that manner
Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources...
You have to realize that there are any number of fedzis who subscribe to this list, it's a well authenticated fact, matter of court testimony. And fedzis aren't noted for brains, or even being able to read, which is why he attacked you instead of me. And of course most fedzis positively foam at the mouth when hearing the truth being spoken, thus the rabid nature of his spewing. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of resources." - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html
Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources..
At 02:11 PM 10/11/2002 -0700, James Donald wrote: > > > > "Our overriding purpose, from the > > > > beginning through to the present > > > > day, has been world domination - . > > > > Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General From: "Trei, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The Sun is an alternative news magazine > which has been in print since 1974. > It's mammothly unlikely that they would > fabricate the interview out of whole > cloth, since Clarke would sue for libel > and/or defamation. On the contrary, this is standard routine communist behavior. They are always inventing fantastic citations, [...] But that's just the kind of thing Ramsey Clark would say. Not Ramsey Clark in his position as spokescritter for the military-industrial complex explaining how great the US is, but Ramsey Clark the well-known leftist critic of US policy describing what he thinks US policy has been. ~ As opposed to Linus Torvalds's followers talking about their objectives for World Domination :-)
Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources..
> > > > "Our overriding purpose, from the > > > > beginning through to the present > > > > day, has been world domination - > > > > that is, to build and maintain > > > > the capacity to coerce everybody > > > > else on the planet: nonviolently, > > > > if possible, and violently, if > > > > necessary. But the purpose of US > > > > foreign policy of domination is > > > > not just to make the rest of the > > > > world jump through hoops; the > > > > purpose is to faciliate our > > > > exploitation of resources." - > > > > Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney > > > > General From: "Trei, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The Sun is an alternative news magazine > which has been in print since 1974. > It's mammothly unlikely that they would > fabricate the interview out of whole > cloth, since Clarke would sue for libel > and/or defamation. On the contrary, this is standard routine communist behavior. They are always inventing fantastic citations, for example the much quoted "Intoxicating Augmentation" quote that Karl Marx attributed to Gladstone (then prime minister of England) which generation after generation learned scholars have learnedly cited as evidence that free market capitalism was bad for workers. Since Clarke is a public figure he cannot sue for libel, so he is a good peg to hang such a citation on. If Karl Marx could get away with attributing fantastic citations to the Prime Minister, "the sun" can certainly get away with attributing them to an attorney general. The enormous flood of such bogus citations make it unlikely that any one of them will be challenged. Look at Chomsky. Every few pages he has a similarly fraudulent citation, and no one ever sues him, even though in some cases one can check the materials he cites, and find that he is lying. Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com
Re: Jamming camcorders in movie theaters
I read how they plan on doing this. I predict it will give a percentage of the movie-going public screaming headaches. (Or at least make them very uncomfortable.) These are the same people who are sensitive to the flicker of cheap 60 hz office lighting. Not that a bit of discomfort was any concern to the MPAA. Look at the movies they put out! On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > [They want to exploit human persistance-of-vision vs. camcorder pixel > differences. > Seems to me that one could process the captured frames to eliminate > artifacts, though that > *is* another step required. In any case, insiders will have access to > the playback codes > opening the bits to duping.] > > > Jamming camcorders in movie theaters > >By Evan Hansen >Staff Writer, CNET News.com >October 10, 2002, 4:00 AM PT > >As one of the key architects of the discontinued Divx > DVD system, Robert >Schumann knows first hand how hard it can be to sell > copyright protection to the >masses. > >Still, some three years after Circuit City pulled > financial support for the >limited-use DVD technology he helped build, Schumann > and a group of >former Divx engineers are hoping for a second act in > Hollywood with the >advent of digital cinema. > >Herndon, Va.-based Cinea, the company Schumann > co-founded after Divx >folded in 1999, is close to unveiling a beta for its > Cosmos digital cinema >security system that will help movie distributors > keep track of how their products are used >while protecting them from piracy. > >Meanwhile, Cinea this week >scored a $2 million grant from the >National Institute of Standards >and Technology's (NIST) >Advanced Technology Program >to develop a system that it claims >will stop audience members from >videotaping digital movies off >theater screens. > >The company "will modify the >timing and modulation of the light >used to create the displayed >image such that frame-based >capture by recording devices is >distorted," according to an >abstract for the winning NIST grant application. "Any > copies made from these devices will >show the disruptive pattern." > >In an interview, Schumann compared the process with > distortions that appear in videotaped >images of computer screens, which may show lines that > are invisible to the naked eye. >Rather than produce accidental disturbances, he said, > Cinea plans to create specific >disturbances that it can control. > >"Machines see the world more closely to reality than > humans do. In the case of computer >screens, if you track the energy from a phosphor > coating (a light-emitting chemical used in >cathode-ray tubes), you find that it begins with a > strong burst followed by a period of >decay and then another burst, and so on. But people > see it as a single intensity," Schumann >said. > >Cinea, a privately held company with backing from > Tysons Corner, Va.-based venture >capital firm Monumental Venture Partners, expects to > have a working prototype within two >years. It is partnering with Princeton, N.J.-based > Sarnoff, which will conduct research on >image manipulation and analyze distortion and > possible countermeasures. The University of >Southern California's Entertainment Technology Center > in Los Angeles will evaluate the >system in testing with human subjects. > >"There's a difference in the way a camcorder and the > human eye see the world," Schumann >said. "We've figured out some ways to exploit that. > The trick is to make sure there is no >negative impact on the viewing experience for the > audience." > > http://news.com.com/2100-1023-961484.html?tag=fd_lede2_hed > > - > Dear Mr Congressman, I am God > -Jack Valenti
Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources...
At 06:33 PM 10/11/2002 +0200, Anonymous <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:29:53 -0400, you wrote: > > > > "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the > > majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is > > conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the > > masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 > > > > "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present > > day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the > > capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if > > possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign > > policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump > > through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of > > resources." > > - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General > >Is there some reason you want to publish these bogus, uncitationed, false, >propaganda quotations? >Just adding to misinformation? Preferring to further downgrade the public >discourse? Planting lies >for subsequent citation as proof of something? What an asshole. In War Is A Racket, Butler argued for a powerful navy, but one prohibited from traveling more than 200 miles from the U.S. coastline. Military aircraft could travel no more than 500 miles from the U.S. coast, and the army would be prohibited from leaving the United States. Butler also proposed that all workers in defense industries, from the lowest laborer to the highest executive, be limited to "$30 a month, the same wage as the lads in the trenches get." He also proposed that a declaration of war should be passed by a plebiscite in which only those subject to conscription would be eligible to vote. There are many references to the Butler quote although I can't find a citation which gives the event(s) from which the speech occurred. I'll keep looking. BTW Butler was a very interesting , colorful and it seems key fellow in American history. But for his political and economic naivete a coup d'itat intended to remove President Franklin D. Roosevelt from office in 1934 might have succeeded. Bummer! "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933
Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources...
Here's the cite for the Ramsey Clark quote. On Fri, Oct 11, 2002 at 06:33:46PM +0200, Anonymous wrote: > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:29:53 -0400, you wrote: > > > > "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the > > majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is > > conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the > > masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 > > > > "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present > > day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the > > capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if > > possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign > > policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump > > through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of > > resources." > > - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General > > Is there some reason you want to publish these bogus, uncitationed, false, >propaganda quotations? > Just adding to misinformation? Preferring to further downgrade the public discourse? >Planting lies > for subsequent citation as proof of something? What an asshole. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of resources." - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html
Jamming camcorders in movie theaters
[They want to exploit human persistance-of-vision vs. camcorder pixel differences. Seems to me that one could process the captured frames to eliminate artifacts, though that *is* another step required. In any case, insiders will have access to the playback codes opening the bits to duping.] Jamming camcorders in movie theaters By Evan Hansen Staff Writer, CNET News.com October 10, 2002, 4:00 AM PT As one of the key architects of the discontinued Divx DVD system, Robert Schumann knows first hand how hard it can be to sell copyright protection to the masses. Still, some three years after Circuit City pulled financial support for the limited-use DVD technology he helped build, Schumann and a group of former Divx engineers are hoping for a second act in Hollywood with the advent of digital cinema. Herndon, Va.-based Cinea, the company Schumann co-founded after Divx folded in 1999, is close to unveiling a beta for its Cosmos digital cinema security system that will help movie distributors keep track of how their products are used while protecting them from piracy. Meanwhile, Cinea this week scored a $2 million grant from the National Institute of Standards and Technology's (NIST) Advanced Technology Program to develop a system that it claims will stop audience members from videotaping digital movies off theater screens. The company "will modify the timing and modulation of the light used to create the displayed image such that frame-based capture by recording devices is distorted," according to an abstract for the winning NIST grant application. "Any copies made from these devices will show the disruptive pattern." In an interview, Schumann compared the process with distortions that appear in videotaped images of computer screens, which may show lines that are invisible to the naked eye. Rather than produce accidental disturbances, he said, Cinea plans to create specific disturbances that it can control. "Machines see the world more closely to reality than humans do. In the case of computer screens, if you track the energy from a phosphor coating (a light-emitting chemical used in cathode-ray tubes), you find that it begins with a strong burst followed by a period of decay and then another burst, and so on. But people see it as a single intensity," Schumann said. Cinea, a privately held company with backing from Tysons Corner, Va.-based venture capital firm Monumental Venture Partners, expects to have a working prototype within two years. It is partnering with Princeton, N.J.-based Sarnoff, which will conduct research on image manipulation and analyze distortion and possible countermeasures. The University of Southern California's Entertainment Technology Center in Los Angeles will evaluate the system in testing with human subjects. "There's a difference in the way a camcorder and the human eye see the world," Schumann said. "We've figured out some ways to exploit that. The trick is to make sure there is no negative impact on the viewing experience for the audience." http://news.com.com/2100-1023-961484.html?tag=fd_lede2_hed - Dear Mr Congressman, I am God -Jack Valenti
RE: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources...
Anonymous wrote: > >From: Anonymous <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "Tyler Durden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources... > >Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:33:46 +0200 (CEST) > > > >On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:29:53 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the > > > majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is > > > conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the > > > masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 > > > > > > "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present > > > day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the > > > capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if > > > possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign > > > policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump > > > through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of > > > resources." > > > - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General > > > >Is there some reason you want to publish these bogus, uncitationed, > false, > >propaganda quotations? > >Just adding to misinformation? Preferring to further downgrade the public > > >discourse? Planting lies > >for subsequent citation as proof of something? What an asshole. > Anonymous had better learn to read, or at least quote email correctly. The signature quotations were not posted by Durden, but by Harmon Seaver. I too found them astonishing, but unlike anonymous, I try to check things out before calling foul. Anon should learn to use Google. Ramsey: http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html The Sun is an alternative news magazine which has been in print since 1974. It's mammothly unlikely that they would fabricate the interview out of whole cloth, since Clarke would sue for libel and/or defamation. Butler: Numerous sources. Butler certainly existed; Amazon has at least two biographies available, and one of them has a sample page image refering to his 1935 book 'War is a Racket', titled after the 1933 speech. Part of the speech can be found here: http://www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm 5 chapters of the book can be found here: http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm If anonymous were a person of character he/she/it would apologize, first to Tyler Durden, for misquoting, and second to Harmon Seaver, but accusing him of lying. Peter Trei
Re: Echelon-like resources...
At 10:54 AM 10/11/2002 -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: Which returns to my original point: the "easy" availability of strong crypto products does not mean it is unprofitable for an agency to continue to push populations towards lighter forms of encryption. Assuming that the agency's goal is to maximize surveillance returns and that they're unconcerned with security generally, yes, you're right. So? -- Greg Broiles -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961
Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources...
On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:29:53 -0400, you wrote: > > "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the > majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is > conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the > masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 > > "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present > day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the > capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if > possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign > policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump > through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of > resources." > - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General Is there some reason you want to publish these bogus, uncitationed, false, propaganda quotations? Just adding to misinformation? Preferring to further downgrade the public discourse? Planting lies for subsequent citation as proof of something? What an asshole.
Re: Echelon-like resources...
OK, let's assume for the same of argument that it takes about 1 minute for Echelon/NSA-like resources to break a weakly encypted lotus notes message. And then let's assume that there's a whole LOT of these machines sitting somewhere. And as the grumpy Tim May has suggested, perhaps only a small fraction of encrypted messages are (or can be) sent for decryption. Then the expenditure of such resources is going to be a big statistical optimization problem, akin to that faced in the credit card industry (eg, in approving or declining a POS transaction). The gub'mint or whatever doing such monitoring will therefore probably look for certain signs that will kick off decryption. For instance, the sporadic use of cryptography in cetain demogrpahic areas might cause a % of those to be sent over for routine check, particularly if there is no encryption used by that populace, and then all of a sudden there are bursts. Also, changing the strength of encryption might be a kickoff, but again I reveal I am a newbie with this question: Is it possible to determine (at least approximately) the strength of encryption of an intercepted message? Then, if someone from, say, the b'Arbes neighborhood of Paris moves suddenly from weak to strong encryption in his messaging, that would kick off a flag somewhere sending that message for cracking. So if a bin Laden were smart, he should routinely use encryption for all of his messages, even the most trivial, because the change in pattern would be a tipoff to send his encrypted messages for hacking. And the there are probably less obvious, large-scale statistical patterns indicating something's up, and causing a % of such messages to be hacked and then sent for routine check for key words. >From: Adam Back <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: Tyler Durden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: Echelon-like... >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:41:21 +0100 > >Sounds about right. 64 bit crypto in the "strong" version (which is >not that strong -- the distributed.net challenge recently broke a 64 >bit key), and in the export version 24 of those 64 bits were encrypted >with an NSA backdoor key, leaving only 40 bits of key space for the >NSA to bruteforce to recover messages. > >The NSA's backdoor public key is at the URL below. > > http://www.cypherspace.org/~adam/hacks/lotus-nsa-key.html > >(The public key had an Organization name of "MiniTruth", and a Common >Name of "Big Brother" -- both Orwell "1984" references, presumably by >a lotus programmer). > >Adam > >On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 02:34:38PM -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: > > "I assume everyone knows the little arrangement that lotus > > reached with the NSA over its encrypted secure email?" > > > > I'm new here, so do tell if I am wrong. Are you referring to the two >levels > > of Encryption available in Bogus Notes? (ie, the North American and the > > International, the International being "legal for export".) > > At one of my previous employers, we were told the (apocryphal?) story of > > some dude who got arrested on an airplane for having the more secure >version > > of Notes on his laptop. > > > > > > > > >From: "David Howe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: "Email List: Cypherpunks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Subject: Re: Echelon-like... > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:38:36 +0100 > > > > > >On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 07:28 PM, anonimo arancio wrote: > > > > The basic argument is that, if good encryption is available overseas > > > > or easily downloadable, it doesn't make sense to make export of it > > > > illegal. > > >Nope. The biggest name in software right now is Microsoft, who wasn't > > >willing to face down the government on this. no export version of a > > >Microsoft product had decent crypto while the export regulations were >in > > >force - and the situation is pretty poor even now. If microsoft were > > >free to compete in this area (and lotus, of notes fame) then decent > > >security *built into* the operating system, the desktop document suite > > >or the email package - and life would get a lot, lot worse for the > > >spooks. I assume everyone knows the little arrangement that lotus > > >reached with the NSA over its encrypted secure email? _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: Echelon-like resources...
Why the hell would anyone use lotus notes encryption for anything whatsoever? On Fri, Oct 11, 2002 at 09:37:52AM -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: > OK, let's assume for the same of argument that it takes about 1 minute for > Echelon/NSA-like resources to break a weakly encypted lotus notes message. > And then let's assume that there's a whole LOT of these machines sitting > somewhere. > > And as the grumpy Tim May has suggested, perhaps only a small fraction of > encrypted messages are (or can be) sent for decryption. > > Then the expenditure of such resources is going to be a big statistical > optimization problem, akin to that faced in the credit card industry (eg, > in approving or declining a POS transaction). > > The gub'mint or whatever doing such monitoring will therefore probably look > for certain signs that will kick off decryption. For instance, the sporadic > use of cryptography in cetain demogrpahic areas might cause a % of those to > be sent over for routine check, particularly if there is no encryption used > by that populace, and then all of a sudden there are bursts. > > Also, changing the strength of encryption might be a kickoff, but again I > reveal I am a newbie with this question: Is it possible to determine (at > least approximately) the strength of encryption of an intercepted message? > > Then, if someone from, say, the b'Arbes neighborhood of Paris moves > suddenly from weak to strong encryption in his messaging, that would kick > off a flag somewhere sending that message for cracking. > > So if a bin Laden were smart, he should routinely use encryption for all of > his messages, even the most trivial, because the change in pattern would be > a tipoff to send his encrypted messages for hacking. > > And the there are probably less obvious, large-scale statistical patterns > indicating something's up, and causing a % of such messages to be hacked > and then sent for routine check for key words. > > > > > > >From: Adam Back <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: Tyler Durden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: Echelon-like... > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:41:21 +0100 > > > >Sounds about right. 64 bit crypto in the "strong" version (which is > >not that strong -- the distributed.net challenge recently broke a 64 > >bit key), and in the export version 24 of those 64 bits were encrypted > >with an NSA backdoor key, leaving only 40 bits of key space for the > >NSA to bruteforce to recover messages. > > > >The NSA's backdoor public key is at the URL below. > > > > http://www.cypherspace.org/~adam/hacks/lotus-nsa-key.html > > > >(The public key had an Organization name of "MiniTruth", and a Common > >Name of "Big Brother" -- both Orwell "1984" references, presumably by > >a lotus programmer). > > > >Adam > > > >On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 02:34:38PM -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: > >> "I assume everyone knows the little arrangement that lotus > >> reached with the NSA over its encrypted secure email?" > >> > >> I'm new here, so do tell if I am wrong. Are you referring to the two > >levels > >> of Encryption available in Bogus Notes? (ie, the North American and the > >> International, the International being "legal for export".) > >> At one of my previous employers, we were told the (apocryphal?) story of > >> some dude who got arrested on an airplane for having the more secure > >version > >> of Notes on his laptop. > >> > >> > >> > >> >From: "David Howe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >To: "Email List: Cypherpunks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >Subject: Re: Echelon-like... > >> >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:38:36 +0100 > >> > > >> >On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 07:28 PM, anonimo arancio wrote: > >> > > The basic argument is that, if good encryption is available overseas > >> > > or easily downloadable, it doesn't make sense to make export of it > >> > > illegal. > >> >Nope. The biggest name in software right now is Microsoft, who wasn't > >> >willing to face down the government on this. no export version of a > >> >Microsoft product had decent crypto while the export regulations were > >in > >> >force - and the situation is pretty poor even now. If microsoft were > >> >free to compete in this area (and lotus, of notes fame) then decent > >> >security *built into* the operating system, the desktop document suite > >> >or the email package - and life would get a lot, lot worse for the > >> >spooks. I assume everyone knows the little arrangement that lotus > >> >reached with the NSA over its encrypted secure email? > > > > > _ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very
Re: Echelon-like...
Sounds about right. 64 bit crypto in the "strong" version (which is not that strong -- the distributed.net challenge recently broke a 64 bit key), and in the export version 24 of those 64 bits were encrypted with an NSA backdoor key, leaving only 40 bits of key space for the NSA to bruteforce to recover messages. The NSA's backdoor public key is at the URL below. http://www.cypherspace.org/~adam/hacks/lotus-nsa-key.html (The public key had an Organization name of "MiniTruth", and a Common Name of "Big Brother" -- both Orwell "1984" references, presumably by a lotus programmer). Adam On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 02:34:38PM -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: > "I assume everyone knows the little arrangement that lotus > reached with the NSA over its encrypted secure email?" > > I'm new here, so do tell if I am wrong. Are you referring to the two levels > of Encryption available in Bogus Notes? (ie, the North American and the > International, the International being "legal for export".) > At one of my previous employers, we were told the (apocryphal?) story of > some dude who got arrested on an airplane for having the more secure version > of Notes on his laptop. > > > > >From: "David Howe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "Email List: Cypherpunks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: Re: Echelon-like... > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:38:36 +0100 > > > >On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 07:28 PM, anonimo arancio wrote: > > > The basic argument is that, if good encryption is available overseas > > > or easily downloadable, it doesn't make sense to make export of it > > > illegal. > >Nope. The biggest name in software right now is Microsoft, who wasn't > >willing to face down the government on this. no export version of a > >Microsoft product had decent crypto while the export regulations were in > >force - and the situation is pretty poor even now. If microsoft were > >free to compete in this area (and lotus, of notes fame) then decent > >security *built into* the operating system, the desktop document suite > >or the email package - and life would get a lot, lot worse for the > >spooks. I assume everyone knows the little arrangement that lotus > >reached with the NSA over its encrypted secure email?
Re: Echelon-like resources...
"Or whatever? What makes you think that anyone can crack any of the strong encryption?" I don't think they can. But your point seems to miss my own point. There will certainly be a certain number of uncrackable mesages out there (as a trained physicist I am fairly certain that even military quantum computing efforts are nowhere near theability to crack strongly encrypted messages). But there will also be a large number of less-strongly and even weakly encrypted messages being sent out there. Various agencies with large amounts of hardware will be looking at this as a statisitcal/logistic issue...I strongly doubt they only attempt cracking on a message-by-message basis. And indeed, in a world where most messages are fairly weakly encrypted, bursts of strongly-encrypted messages will stand out all the more and possibly flag the need for other methods of investigation. Which returns to my original point: the "easy" availability of strong crypto products does not mean it is unprofitable for an agency to continue to push populations towards lighter forms of encryption. >From: Harmon Seaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: Tyler Durden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: Echelon-like resources... >Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:39:01 -0500 > >On Fri, Oct 11, 2002 at 10:29:53AM -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: > > Harmon Seaver wrote... > > > > > Why the hell would anyone use lotus notes encryption for anything > > >whatsoever? > > > > Lotus Notes or whatever, of course. The point here is that larger > >Or whatever? What makes you think that anyone can crack any of the >strong >encryption? > > >-- >Harmon Seaver >CyberShamanix >http://www.cybershamanix.com > >"War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the >majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is >conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the >masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 > >"Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present >day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the >capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if >possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign >policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump >through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of >resources." >- Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: Echelon-like...
So as a follow on question...what kind of hardware does it take to break the weak and strong versions of Bogus Notes? Is it possible that NSA or Echelon have the ability to decode a large number of such messages? And if the amount of hardware needed to break the strong version is significantly greater than that required to break the weak version, then the government's attempts to restrict any proliferation or use of the stronger version could make sense, from their standpoint. But as was said before, this may have been discussed here previously. >From: "David Howe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Email List: Cypherpunks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: Echelon-like... >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:01:12 +0100 > > >> "I assume everyone knows the little arrangement that lotus > >> reached with the NSA over its encrypted secure email?" > > I'm new here, so do tell if I am wrong. Are you referring to the two >levels > > of Encryption available in Bogus Notes? >More or less, yes. Lotus knew nobody would buy a 40 bit version of their >crypto, so there is a two-level encryption all right, but not along >those lines - in the export version, some of the session key is >encrypted using a PKI "work reduction factor" key in the message header; >this section of header is important, as lotus gateways won't accept >messages that have had it disturbed. by decoding this block, the NSA >have the actual keysize they need to block reduced to the legal export >level of 40 bits; one government found this out *after* rolling it out >to all their billing and contract negotiation departments... belgum or >sweden by memory . Lotus thought it would be ok if only the NSA (and >other US government orgs) could break the key, rather than letting >everyone have an equal chance (and indeed, letting their customers know >their crypto was still only 40 bit vs USA intel agencies) >Still, even the domestic version was only 64 bits, which is painfully >small even by the standards of the day. certainly, even "strong" lotus >could have been crackable by the NSA, who after all own their own fab >plant to make custom VLSI cracking chips. _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
RE: Echelon-like...
> David Howe[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > >> "I assume everyone knows the little arrangement that lotus > >> reached with the NSA over its encrypted secure email?" > > I'm new here, so do tell if I am wrong. Are you referring to the two > levels > > of Encryption available in Bogus Notes? > More or less, yes. Lotus knew nobody would buy a 40 bit version of their > crypto, so there is a two-level encryption all right, but not along > those lines - in the export version, some of the session key is > encrypted using a PKI "work reduction factor" key in the message header; > this section of header is important, as lotus gateways won't accept > messages that have had it disturbed. by decoding this block, the NSA > have the actual keysize they need to block reduced to the legal export > level of 40 bits; one government found this out *after* rolling it out > to all their billing and contract negotiation departments... belgum or > sweden by memory . Lotus thought it would be ok if only the NSA (and > other US government orgs) could break the key, rather than letting > everyone have an equal chance (and indeed, letting their customers know > their crypto was still only 40 bit vs USA intel agencies) > Still, even the domestic version was only 64 bits, which is painfully > small even by the standards of the day. certainly, even "strong" lotus > could have been crackable by the NSA, who after all own their own fab > plant to make custom VLSI cracking chips. > It was Sweden. They didn't really have an excuse - over a year earlier, Lotus announced their "International" version with details of the "Work Factor Reduction Field" at the RSA Conference. I immediately invented the term 'espionage enabled' to describe this feature, a term which has entered the crypto lexicon. Peter Trei
Re: Echelon-like...
"Trei, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It was Sweden. They didn't really have an excuse - over a year earlier, > Lotus announced their "International" version with details of the "Work > Factor Reduction Field" at the RSA Conference. I immediately invented > the term 'espionage enabled' to describe this feature, a term which has > entered the crypto lexicon. Indeed so, yes - If my memory isn't failing me though, their "excuse" was that the lotus salesdroid they had awarded the contract to hadn't disclosed it to them in his bid and in fact, the original tender had specified *secure* encryption, not *secure, except for the american spy industry*. I don't know enough sweedish to even attempt a google on it though :)
Re: Echelon-like resources...
Harmon Seaver wrote... >Why the hell would anyone use lotus notes encryption for anything >whatsoever? Lotus Notes or whatever, of course. The point here is that larger organizations with decryption capabilities probably do not think on the message-by-message level very often, just like credit card companies and insurance agencies deal with their customers in statistical buckets. It's also conceivable that a large variety of individuals, of varying levels of sophistication and education, catch wind of information the government may be interested in. Some of them may not feel or know that their message is of enough importance to go outside ofLotus Notes or whatever if they have it. > > >On Fri, Oct 11, 2002 at 09:37:52AM -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: > > OK, let's assume for the same of argument that it takes about 1 minute >for > > Echelon/NSA-like resources to break a weakly encypted lotus notes >message. > > And then let's assume that there's a whole LOT of these machines sitting > > somewhere. > > > > And as the grumpy Tim May has suggested, perhaps only a small fraction >of > > encrypted messages are (or can be) sent for decryption. > > > > Then the expenditure of such resources is going to be a big statistical > > optimization problem, akin to that faced in the credit card industry >(eg, > > in approving or declining a POS transaction). > > > > The gub'mint or whatever doing such monitoring will therefore probably >look > > for certain signs that will kick off decryption. For instance, the >sporadic > > use of cryptography in cetain demogrpahic areas might cause a % of those >to > > be sent over for routine check, particularly if there is no encryption >used > > by that populace, and then all of a sudden there are bursts. > > > > Also, changing the strength of encryption might be a kickoff, but again >I > > reveal I am a newbie with this question: Is it possible to determine (at > > least approximately) the strength of encryption of an intercepted >message? > > > > Then, if someone from, say, the b'Arbes neighborhood of Paris moves > > suddenly from weak to strong encryption in his messaging, that would >kick > > off a flag somewhere sending that message for cracking. > > > > So if a bin Laden were smart, he should routinely use encryption for all >of > > his messages, even the most trivial, because the change in pattern would >be > > a tipoff to send his encrypted messages for hacking. > > > > And the there are probably less obvious, large-scale statistical >patterns > > indicating something's up, and causing a % of such messages to be hacked > > and then sent for routine check for key words. > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Adam Back <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: Tyler Durden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >Subject: Re: Echelon-like... > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:41:21 +0100 > > > > > >Sounds about right. 64 bit crypto in the "strong" version (which is > > >not that strong -- the distributed.net challenge recently broke a 64 > > >bit key), and in the export version 24 of those 64 bits were encrypted > > >with an NSA backdoor key, leaving only 40 bits of key space for the > > >NSA to bruteforce to recover messages. > > > > > >The NSA's backdoor public key is at the URL below. > > > > > > http://www.cypherspace.org/~adam/hacks/lotus-nsa-key.html > > > > > >(The public key had an Organization name of "MiniTruth", and a Common > > >Name of "Big Brother" -- both Orwell "1984" references, presumably by > > >a lotus programmer). > > > > > >Adam > > > > > >On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 02:34:38PM -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: > > >> "I assume everyone knows the little arrangement that lotus > > >> reached with the NSA over its encrypted secure email?" > > >> > > >> I'm new here, so do tell if I am wrong. Are you referring to the two > > >levels > > >> of Encryption available in Bogus Notes? (ie, the North American and >the > > >> International, the International being "legal for export".) > > >> At one of my previous employers, we were told the (apocryphal?) story >of > > >> some dude who got arrested on an airplane for having the more secure > > >version > > >> of Notes on his laptop. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >From: "David Howe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >> >To: "Email List: Cypherpunks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >> >Subject: Re: Echelon-like... > > >> >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:38:36 +0100 > > >> > > > >> >On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 07:28 PM, anonimo arancio wrote: > > >> > > The basic argument is that, if good encryption is available >overseas > > >> > > or easily downloadable, it doesn't make sense to make export of >it > > >> > > illegal. > > >> >Nope. The biggest name in software right now is Microsoft, who >wasn't > > >> >willing to face down the government on this. no export version of a > > >> >Microsoft product had decent crypto while the export regulations >were > > >in > > >> >force - and the situation is pretty poor ev
Re: Echelon-like resources...
On Fri, Oct 11, 2002 at 10:29:53AM -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: > Harmon Seaver wrote... > > > Why the hell would anyone use lotus notes encryption for anything > >whatsoever? > > Lotus Notes or whatever, of course. The point here is that larger Or whatever? What makes you think that anyone can crack any of the strong encryption? -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of resources." - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General
