Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 at 00:46, Terry Pinfold wrote: > > BTW, is there any way to change the default option for this module to my new > preset? You can save a new preset (or edit an existing one), and check the 'auto apply to matching images'. https://darktable.gitlab.io/doc/en/module_presets.html#module_presets_new Another way, if you don't want it to slow down processing while you edit (though it comes pretty early in the pipe, and its output can be cached, plus the wavelet-based algorithm has a very efficient OpenCL implementation if memory serves me well), is to create a style, and add it to your export settings (see under the heading 'Style' at https://darktable.gitlab.io/doc/en/export_selected.html). Kofa darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
On mercredi 13 janvier 2021 01:40:12 CET Bill Martz wrote: > I am not receiving all emails, just some. I didn't receive any that gave > information about the preset, only emails that indicated there was one. > Would someone fill me in? Perhaps check spam folders, I regularly find some mails from this list there (not sure why, perhaps too many urls/phone numbers?) Remco darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
I am not receiving all emails, just some. I didn't receive any that gave information about the preset, only emails that indicated there was one. Would someone fill me in? Bill Martz On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 6:47 PM Terry Pinfold wrote: > Hi Kofa, > I installed your preset and watched the video link. I believe I have > improved upon your preset a little. In the YO curve you have dropped every > level down to noisy. If for the finest detail (far right) you lift this > half way you reduce luma noise without losing any significant level of > detail. BTW, when I really experimented with the UOVO curve I independently > decided on an identical setting to yours. I have tested my preset on a > number of challenging presets and it works so so so good. Thanks for this > guidance. BTW, is there any way to change the default option for this > module to my new preset? > > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 10:12, Terry Pinfold wrote: > >> Thanks for the link. I will watch it today. I also use contrast equaliser >> for noise reduction because it is wavelets based. >> >> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 08:57, KOVÁCS István >> wrote: >> >>> I'm glad you find it useful. I read somewhere or saw a video that said >>> you could play with the noise reduction applied at the different >>> detail levels, but you really had to raise the strength for the >>> settings to be effective (it may have been this video from rawfiner, >>> one of the developers, but I do not have time to re-watch it now: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZhbeXpx2W8). >>> Someone (I think on discuss.pixls.us) has suggested an inverted U >>> shape to leave fine details alone, so you may try that. I'm partial to >>> my version, but we have different tastes, and possibly the type of >>> camera also matters. >>> >>> Kofa >>> >>> >>> darktable user mailing list >>> to unsubscribe send a mail to >>> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Dr Terry Pinfold >> Cytometry & Histology Lab Manager >> Lecturer in Flow Cytometry >> University of Tasmania >> 17 Liverpool St, Hobart, 7000 >> Ph 6226 4846 or 0408 699053 >> >> > > -- > Dr Terry Pinfold > Cytometry & Histology Lab Manager > Lecturer in Flow Cytometry > University of Tasmania > 17 Liverpool St, Hobart, 7000 > Ph 6226 4846 or 0408 699053 > > > > darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Hi Kofa, I installed your preset and watched the video link. I believe I have improved upon your preset a little. In the YO curve you have dropped every level down to noisy. If for the finest detail (far right) you lift this half way you reduce luma noise without losing any significant level of detail. BTW, when I really experimented with the UOVO curve I independently decided on an identical setting to yours. I have tested my preset on a number of challenging presets and it works so so so good. Thanks for this guidance. BTW, is there any way to change the default option for this module to my new preset? On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 10:12, Terry Pinfold wrote: > Thanks for the link. I will watch it today. I also use contrast equaliser > for noise reduction because it is wavelets based. > > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 08:57, KOVÁCS István > wrote: > >> I'm glad you find it useful. I read somewhere or saw a video that said >> you could play with the noise reduction applied at the different >> detail levels, but you really had to raise the strength for the >> settings to be effective (it may have been this video from rawfiner, >> one of the developers, but I do not have time to re-watch it now: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZhbeXpx2W8). >> Someone (I think on discuss.pixls.us) has suggested an inverted U >> shape to leave fine details alone, so you may try that. I'm partial to >> my version, but we have different tastes, and possibly the type of >> camera also matters. >> >> Kofa >> >> >> darktable user mailing list >> to unsubscribe send a mail to >> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org >> >> > > -- > Dr Terry Pinfold > Cytometry & Histology Lab Manager > Lecturer in Flow Cytometry > University of Tasmania > 17 Liverpool St, Hobart, 7000 > Ph 6226 4846 or 0408 699053 > > -- Dr Terry Pinfold Cytometry & Histology Lab Manager Lecturer in Flow Cytometry University of Tasmania 17 Liverpool St, Hobart, 7000 Ph 6226 4846 or 0408 699053 darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Thanks for the link. I will watch it today. I also use contrast equaliser for noise reduction because it is wavelets based. On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 08:57, KOVÁCS István wrote: > I'm glad you find it useful. I read somewhere or saw a video that said > you could play with the noise reduction applied at the different > detail levels, but you really had to raise the strength for the > settings to be effective (it may have been this video from rawfiner, > one of the developers, but I do not have time to re-watch it now: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZhbeXpx2W8). > Someone (I think on discuss.pixls.us) has suggested an inverted U > shape to leave fine details alone, so you may try that. I'm partial to > my version, but we have different tastes, and possibly the type of > camera also matters. > > Kofa > > > darktable user mailing list > to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > -- Dr Terry Pinfold Cytometry & Histology Lab Manager Lecturer in Flow Cytometry University of Tasmania 17 Liverpool St, Hobart, 7000 Ph 6226 4846 or 0408 699053 darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
I'm glad you find it useful. I read somewhere or saw a video that said you could play with the noise reduction applied at the different detail levels, but you really had to raise the strength for the settings to be effective (it may have been this video from rawfiner, one of the developers, but I do not have time to re-watch it now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZhbeXpx2W8). Someone (I think on discuss.pixls.us) has suggested an inverted U shape to leave fine details alone, so you may try that. I'm partial to my version, but we have different tastes, and possibly the type of camera also matters. Kofa darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Thanks Kova, I have installed it and tested it. It works really well. I recommend others try this for noise reduction. I have a 3200ISO image shot on a Canon G16 (small sensor) and the preset did a great job controlling noise with little compromise to detail. On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 07:30, KOVÁCS István wrote: > On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 at 21:04, Terry Pinfold wrote: > > > > I went to the link and I saw a bunch of text. How do I copy and save > that as a preset to install? > > > Right-click, Save as..., or simply copy the text that you see in the > browser into a file called any-name.dtpreset, or in Firefox press > Ctlr+S when the text is shown. > > > darktable user mailing list > to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > -- Dr Terry Pinfold Cytometry & Histology Lab Manager Lecturer in Flow Cytometry University of Tasmania 17 Liverpool St, Hobart, 7000 Ph 6226 4846 or 0408 699053 darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 at 21:04, Terry Pinfold wrote: > > I went to the link and I saw a bunch of text. How do I copy and save that as > a preset to install? Right-click, Save as..., or simply copy the text that you see in the browser into a file called any-name.dtpreset, or in Firefox press Ctlr+S when the text is shown. darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Thanks for sharing this Kofa. I went to the link and I saw a bunch of text. How do I copy and save that as a preset to install? I am a Windows user, although I do have access to Linux Mint machines as well. thanks On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 05:53, KOVÁCS István wrote: > Sorry, the URL was broken. Here it is: > > https://tech.kovacs-telekes.org/files/denoiseprofile_wavelet%20chroma.dtpreset > > > darktable user mailing list > to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > -- Dr Terry Pinfold Cytometry & Histology Lab Manager Lecturer in Flow Cytometry University of Tasmania 17 Liverpool St, Hobart, 7000 Ph 6226 4846 or 0408 699053 darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Sorry, the URL was broken. Here it is: https://tech.kovacs-telekes.org/files/denoiseprofile_wavelet%20chroma.dtpreset darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
I usually only filter chroma noise. I find that denoise (profiled) can suppress it very effectively, leaving fine-grained luma noise behind. I've exported my preset, you can grab it here if you like: https://tech.kovacs-telekes.org/files/denoiseprofile_wavelet chroma.dtpreset You can import it with Preferences -> Presets -> import, see https://www.darktable.org/usermanual/en/preferences-settings/presets/ Kofa darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Terry Pinfold schrieb am 06.01.21 um 05:45: Terry Pinfold schrieb am 06.01.21 um 02:46: Maybe I am reading the wrong release notes? There is also a very readable blog post which discusses the most important changes in more detail: https://www.darktable.org/2020/12/darktable-3-4/ Thanks Bernard. This is a more comprehensive document. I am not sure where it would be found normally but I appreciate the link and definitely is worth reading. It's in the "blog" section of the darktable homepage - you may find the articles for the previous versions there also -- regards Bernhard https://www.bilddateien.de darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Hi Jason, I agree with your observations. I often use more than one denoise option. I now really like the denoise profiled chrominance only option. give it a try if you haven't already. I have put together this general observation for my students about these two now renamed denoise options. I just really struggle with the name 'surface blur' over denoise bilateral filter. Not trying to hassle the developers online here. Just offering some hopefully constructive feedback about renaming modules in the future. 1. Denoise bilateral filter (correction group) The denoise bilateral filter is used to denoise high ISO images while claiming to preserve sharp edges. It uses a lot of computer resources including RAM and CPU. This looks like a promising denoise tool as the edges remain sharp-looking with effective noise removal. Exceptionally good in large areas with little detail. In Darktable version 3.2.1 this module was not working correctly on my Windows computer despite working well with earlier versions. 2. Denoise non-local means (correction group) Denoise non-local means has separate sliders for luma and chroma (colour) noise. Reduces noise but preserves structures by averaging pixels with neighbouring pixels. · Set luma slider to the lowest effect value as image is softened and details lost · Chroma slider can often be set high or even 100% with no problems On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 at 05:28, Jason Polak wrote: > Just a quick comment on this: the astrophoto denoise (formerly non-local > means) is a very effective way to get rid of just colour noise with very > little to no loss in image quality, and is certainly not restricted only > to astrophotography. I still use it in conjunction with profiled denoise > to get the best results. > > Jason > > > > > On Tue, 5 Jan 2021, 23:45 Terry Pinfold, > > > Renamed Modules > > > > The following modules have been renamed to better describe their > > use. These modules can still be found using their old names in the > > module search box. > > > > denoise (non-local means) is now astrophoto denoise > > denoise (bilateral filter) is now surface blur > > > darktable user mailing list > to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > -- Dr Terry Pinfold Cytometry & Histology Lab Manager Lecturer in Flow Cytometry University of Tasmania 17 Liverpool St, Hobart, 7000 Ph 6226 4846 or 0408 699053 darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Just a quick comment on this: the astrophoto denoise (formerly non-local means) is a very effective way to get rid of just colour noise with very little to no loss in image quality, and is certainly not restricted only to astrophotography. I still use it in conjunction with profiled denoise to get the best results. Jason > > On Tue, 5 Jan 2021, 23:45 Terry Pinfold, > Renamed Modules > > The following modules have been renamed to better describe their > use. These modules can still be found using their old names in the > module search box. > > denoise (non-local means) is now astrophoto denoise > denoise (bilateral filter) is now surface blur darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 at 04:12, KOVÁCS István wrote: > > > On Tue, 5 Jan 2021, 23:45 Terry Pinfold, wrote: > >> *"The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion."* >> >> I was also surprised to see some noise reduction modules have disappeared >> > > https://www.darktable.org/2020/12/darktable-3-4/ > > Renamed Modules > > The following modules have been renamed to better describe their use. > These modules can still be found using their old names in the module search > box. > > denoise (non-local means) is now astrophoto denoise > denoise (bilateral filter) is now surface blur > >> >> > > darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > Thanks for this information. I would suggest being careful renaming modules which will only confuse most users. Possibly when renaming put the former name in brackets. But glad to see they are still there. BTW, I read the release notes when doing the download and the renming was not mentioned. Yes it is in the document linked here. I am ever so grateful to the great work by the developers in 2020. When I retire I might learn how to do the coding to help develop Darktable going forward. At the moment I just wouldn't know where to start. darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
On Tue, 5 Jan 2021, 23:45 Terry Pinfold, wrote: > *"The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion."* > > I was also surprised to see some noise reduction modules have disappeared > https://www.darktable.org/2020/12/darktable-3-4/ Renamed Modules The following modules have been renamed to better describe their use. These modules can still be found using their old names in the module search box. denoise (non-local means) is now astrophoto denoise denoise (bilateral filter) is now surface blur > > darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
First off, I would like to echo the appreciation by Marc to the developers of Darktable. I truly appreciate and marvel at their dedication. They have produced an incredible raw processing program. I also agree with Karim’s description of the zone system and how Filmic is a far better tool to achieve the aims of the zone system. I abandoned the zone system module a long time ago and have become the biggest fan of filmic. However, let's consider Tanya’s original post. She was concerned that a module had been deprecated. Others including myself may feel there are better options such as filmic. However, should we or the developers force this view upon another user of Darktable. I am suggesting that unless there is an issue of maintaining an old module or having it work with the latest version of Darktable it would be best just left alone as an option. Possibly in the module’s name we could list the recommended replacement module to guide users. As an example, many describe the tone equalizer as a replacement for the shadow highlights module. But despite their similarities they actually produce different results. The excellent tone equalizer module can be used to brighten and darken shadows and highlights respectively. It does this with little or no effect on local contrast and saturation of colors. However, shadow highlights module does affect local contrast and the saturation of colors. For this reason, some people regard the tone equalizer as superior and a worthy replacement for the shadow highlights module, but I would suggest they are just different. This difference is what makes Darktable great. I often use both shadow highlights and tone equalizer on the same image (I know some of you just cringed). I would be so disappointed if the developers took away this freedom of choice from me in the future. Whenever possible let’s keep the old modules as an option but let’s keep up the development of the new modules. And thanks again to the developers for a great 2020, at least in the Darktable world. From: Top Rock Photography Sent: Friday, 8 January 2021 4:44 AM To: darktable forum Subject: Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!) FUN with The Zone System I have been intrigued with the zone system since the summer of 1980. By the time I got into my first darkroom in 1981, sheet film had been replaced as the de facto by 35 mm roll film (after 120 roll film, of course). Doing the zone system became harder. Then I was introduced to Ilford Multigrade paper, and, with a great deal of pre-planning, the zone system became a little easier. With digital photography, it became that much easier, as once again, photographs can be treated differently on a frame by frame basis, instead of a roll by roll basis. The zone system and swing/tilt-shift/lift lens standard were the only two things drawing me towards view cameras, and now, with high resolution digital cameras and the digital darkroom, (such as darktable), I no longer need a view camera for either one. (Well, a swing/tilt-shift/lift lens standard would still be awesome!!!) One of the first things I had noticed, and was eager to try, when I first looked at darktable as an alternative to RawTherapee, was the zone system module. I tried using it to get the results I wanted, and found that it was much easier to use curves, or something else to achieve the goal. With the filmic RGB module, I find it so much easier (and more precise) than the zone system module ever was. If one understands precisely what the zone system is all about, then using the filmic module to achieve the goal is so much easier than attempting it any other way. The idea is to pick the greatest highlights and deepest shadows in which one desires to capture details, then expose and develop for it accordingly. This means from a practical DSC pov, expose the sensor such that the highlights on the subject in which one wants to retain detail is not near clipping, (so as to capture as much detail in the shadows, without losing details in the highlights, a.k.a., expose the subject to the right, or ETTR), then use the filmic module (ar any other appropriate module) to adjust the subjects highlights and shadows accordingly. The dynamic range scaling feature is absolutely a marvel with this. [ASIDE] For negative film, the zone system can be summarised as —and this is a huge oversimplification— expose for the shadow (get enough light so as to capture detail, or in other words, get enough density on the negative), and develop for the highlights (do not get too much density in the highlights), a.k.a., still expose to the right. This may mean over exposing and under developing, —pulling the film— when the shadows are too dark, or under exposing and over developing —pushing the film— when the shadows are too bright. Nothing has really changed with digital photography. [/ASIDE
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
FUN with The Zone System I have been intrigued with the zone system since the summer of 1980. By the time I got into my first darkroom in 1981, sheet film had been replaced as the de facto by 35 mm roll film (after 120 roll film, of course). Doing the zone system became harder. Then I was introduced to Ilford Multigrade paper, and, with a great deal of pre-planning, the zone system became a little easier. With digital photography, it became that much easier, as once again, photographs can be treated differently on a frame by frame basis, instead of a roll by roll basis. The zone system and swing/tilt-shift/lift lens standard were the only two things drawing me towards view cameras, and now, with high resolution digital cameras and the digital darkroom, (such as darktable), I no longer need a view camera for either one. (Well, a swing/tilt-shift/lift lens standard would still be awesome!!!) One of the first things I had noticed, and was eager to try, when I first looked at darktable as an alternative to RawTherapee, was the zone system module. I tried using it to get the results I wanted, and found that it was much easier to use curves, or something else to achieve the goal. With the filmic RGB module, I find it so much easier (and more precise) than the zone system module ever was. If one understands precisely what the zone system is all about, then using the filmic module to achieve the goal is so much easier than attempting it any other way. The idea is to pick the greatest highlights and deepest shadows in which one desires to capture details, then expose and develop for it accordingly. This means from a practical DSC pov, expose the sensor such that the* highlights on the subject *in which one wants to retain detail is not near clipping, (so as to capture as much detail in the shadows, without losing details in the highlights, a.k.a., *expose the subject* to the right, or ETTR), then use the filmic module (ar any other appropriate module) to adjust the subjects highlights and shadows accordingly. The dynamic range scaling feature is absolutely a marvel with this. [ASIDE] For negative film, the zone system can be summarised as —and this is a huge oversimplification— expose for the shadow (get enough light so as to capture detail, or in other words, get enough density on the negative), and develop for the highlights (do not get too much density in the highlights), a.k.a., still expose to the right. This may mean over exposing and under developing, —pulling the film— when the shadows are too dark, or under exposing and over developing —pushing the film— when the shadows are too bright. Nothing has really changed with digital photography. [/ASIDE] Whereas the zone system module made it easier to indicate what parts of the *subject *fell into what zones, it did not add any value outside of such visualisation, (IMNSHO). The same can be achieved by using the clipping indicator, by setting the threshold values accordingly, and *observing the subject*. Not only so, but the tooltip of the new clipping indicator helps one make the adjustment based on the intended medium, including print. (It was sometimes a pain to get an image just right, then, after sending to the printers, realised that it had to be adjusted majorly). I recommend that those interested in the zone system first understand what the zote system was attempting to achieve, then learn how one can achieve the same results in the filmic module. Linear RGB is basically the zone system on steroids! (IMNSHO). That is my 2¢. Sincerely, Karim Hosein Top Rock Photography 754.999.1652 darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Hi Marc, > I cannot thank you enough for such a great raw editor. > > I understand that modules are deprecated but may I assume they’ll > remain supported, and embedded in DT, in every future release … ? Yes a deprecated module will never be removed. It wont be in the UI but old edits using it won't be affected. -- Pascal Obry / Magny Les Hameaux (78) The best way to travel is by means of imagination http://www.obry.net gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
RE: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Dear Developers, former and current, I cannot thank you enough for such a great raw editor. I understand that modules are deprecated but may I assume they’ll remain supported, and embedded in DT, in every future release … ? (Otherwise some of the old edits in one’s DT database would not resolve correctly anymore without a rework.) Again thank you. I very much appreciate also its availability on the different platforms, especially on Windows in my case. Marc. Van: Terry Pinfold Verzonden: dinsdag 5 januari 2021 23:44 Aan: tanya.rise...@gmail.com CC: darktable forum Onderwerp: Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!) "The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion." I would tend to agree with Tanya about keeping the zone system. While I much prefer the tone equalizer module over the zone system I feel having the choice to use or not use the zone system is best. What I really like about DT is the ability to have so many choices of modules to achieve your desired outcome. I can understand that modules may have to be deprecated if they can not be maintained or cause DT to not work correctly, but if this is not the case then I would agree that the zone system should be reinstated. I was also surprised to see some noise reduction modules have disappeared in the latest version of DT. I did like the options of multiple modules for tackling different noise issues. But in saying that I am impressed with the improvements to the denoise (profiled) module, especially the chrominance only preset in the hamburger. I really appreciate the effort of all the developers for producing my favourite editing program, but please only deprecate modules if you really have to. Thanks Terry On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 at 09:28, Tanya Riseman mailto:tanya.rise...@gmail.com> > wrote: Thank you all for the tips on using tone equalizer. I am still digesting them, but have made a lot of progress. I am using DT 3.2 so that I can compare zone system and tone equalizer. I understand that tone equalizer in v. 3.4 is a lot better, but I am putting off upgrading to it due to the lack of zone system. I took a sample picture to edit, with a good range of black to white. I want to make it look like the classic B street photography with "inky blacks". In zone system I pushed the dark shadows down toward the black to get this effect. I also pushed the highlights toward the whites, but not as much. There are 8 points on the zone strip that one can vary. I am going for the look of "inky blacks" over preserving all the detail. In tone equalizer using the default mask type of guided filter and spreading the mask histogram as much as I could, I got about 3.5 points on the curve that could modify the picture. I could not get anything near to the result from zone system. Too grey. I tried choosing 'no' in preserve details (in the masking tab), as Juan suggested. Now the mask spans all 8 EV and I was able to get very close to my picture from zone system. So my conclusions are 1. It is not certain that tone equalizer is mature since the last big update is only from late December. 2. If tone equalizer is not yet mature, it is premature to deprecate the zone system module. 3. The tone equalizer "preserve details" option of "no" that basically replicates the zone system/ tone curve is very buried. Maybe it should be on the simple tab. To be honest I find the tone curve hard to use and was initially smitten with the simple tab on the tone equalizer. 4. Learning the tone equalizer is much harder than the zone system (thank you for the hand holding). This is a barrier for beginners; let them get their sea legs using the zone system as they learn techniques that go beyond basic sliders. 5. Obviously in using the tone equalizer, there are other images where the intention is more of preserving detail while not adjusting tone values more than the detail mask allows. I can think of documentary cases like bird photos and scientific images. 6. The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion. Tanya Riseman darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org <mailto:darktable-user%2bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org> -- darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org <mailto:darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org> = darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Thanks Kofa, I did join recently and read some of the discussions. I have also played with some of the images in playraw before when trying to learn DT. On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 at 16:40, KOVÁCS István wrote: > You could join discuss.pixls.us if you haven't done so, and post a > photo at https://discuss.pixls.us/c/processing/playraw/30, where > others can (and will) develop it in different ways. Many of the > developers are also active on pixls.us. > > Kofa > > > darktable user mailing list > to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > -- Dr Terry Pinfold Cytometry & Histology Lab Manager Lecturer in Flow Cytometry University of Tasmania 17 Liverpool St, Hobart, 7000 Ph 6226 4846 or 0408 699053 darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
You could join discuss.pixls.us if you haven't done so, and post a photo at https://discuss.pixls.us/c/processing/playraw/30, where others can (and will) develop it in different ways. Many of the developers are also active on pixls.us. Kofa darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 at 15:38, Bernhard wrote: > > > Terry Pinfold schrieb am 06.01.21 um 02:46: > > Maybe I am reading the wrong release notes? > There is also a very readable blog post which discusses the most > important changes in more detail: > https://www.darktable.org/2020/12/darktable-3-4/ > > -- > > regards > Bernhard > > https://www.bilddateien.de > > > > darktable user mailing list > to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > -- Thanks Bernard. This is a more comprehensive document. I am not sure where it would be found normally but I appreciate the link and definitely is worth reading. darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Terry Pinfold schrieb am 06.01.21 um 02:46: Maybe I am reading the wrong release notes? There is also a very readable blog post which discusses the most important changes in more detail: https://www.darktable.org/2020/12/darktable-3-4/ -- regards Bernhard https://www.bilddateien.de darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
The name surface blur does not seem intuitive that it is a module for noise reduction. I wonder if this is the denoise bilateral filter module, but renamed? Now what I do notice is that my old presets are appearing in surface blur and astrophoto denoise which is consistent with your statement that they have been renamed. Maybe the old name could have been retained in brackets besides the new name to reduce confusion. Not convinced about renaming modules going forward. The user guide does not mention that the modules are renamed. thanks for your help. Thanks From: Andrew Greig Sent: Wednesday, 6 January 2021 12:56 PM To: darktable-user@lists.darktable.org Subject: Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!) Hi Terry, Check out Bruce Williams excellent four part video series on new stuff in 3.4, he discusses the change of one of those modules to "surface blur" Watch them all, time well spent. Andrew On 6/1/21 12:46 pm, Terry Pinfold wrote: Hi Martin, I had read and have now reread the release notes https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/releases/tag/release-3.4.0<https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/releases/tag/release-3.4.0> and saw no mention of denoise modules being renamed. Maybe I am reading the wrong release notes? Previously there had been denoise bilateral filter and denoise non-local means and they seem to have gone but astrophoto denoise has appeared. Also, I tried to find the zone system and put it into one of my groups, but it does not appear in the search result when I am trying to manage my presets. I am using Windows 10 if this is relevant. Thanks From: Martin Straeten <mailto:martin.strae...@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, 6 January 2021 10:53 AM To: Terry Pinfold <mailto:tpinf...@gmail.com> Cc: tanya.rise...@gmail.com<mailto:tanya.rise...@gmail.com> <mailto:tanya.rise...@gmail.com>; darktable forum <mailto:darktable-user@lists.darktable.org> Subject: Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!) You can use zone system even it’s deprecated. You just need to put in into the group you want to find it. or access it by searching for it. Some further denoise modules weren’t removed but renamed - sometimes it’s worth to read release notes .. Am 05.01.2021 um 23:45 schrieb Terry Pinfold <mailto:tpinf...@gmail.com>: "The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion." I would tend to agree with Tanya about keeping the zone system. While I much prefer the tone equalizer module over the zone system I feel having the choice to use or not use the zone system is best. What I really like about DT is the ability to have so many choices of modules to achieve your desired outcome. I can understand that modules may have to be deprecated if they can not be maintained or cause DT to not work correctly, but if this is not the case then I would agree that the zone system should be reinstated. I was also surprised to see some noise reduction modules have disappeared in the latest version of DT. I did like the options of multiple modules for tackling different noise issues. But in saying that I am impressed with the improvements to the denoise (profiled) module, especially the chrominance only preset in the hamburger. I really appreciate the effort of all the developers for producing my favourite editing program, but please only deprecate modules if you really have to. Thanks Terry On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 at 09:28, Tanya Riseman mailto:tanya.rise...@gmail.com>> wrote: Thank you all for the tips on using tone equalizer. I am still digesting them, but have made a lot of progress. I am using DT 3.2 so that I can compare zone system and tone equalizer. I understand that tone equalizer in v. 3.4 is a lot better, but I am putting off upgrading to it due to the lack of zone system. I took a sample picture to edit, with a good range of black to white. I want to make it look like the classic B street photography with "inky blacks". In zone system I pushed the dark shadows down toward the black to get this effect. I also pushed the highlights toward the whites, but not as much. There are 8 points on the zone strip that one can vary. I am going for the look of "inky blacks" over preserving all the detail. In tone equalizer using the default mask type of guided filter and spreading the mask histogram as much as I could, I got about 3.5 points on the curve that could modify the picture. I could not get anything near to the result from zone system. Too grey. I tried choosing 'no' in preserve details (in the masking tab), as Juan suggested. Now the mask spans all 8 EV and I was able to get very close to my picture from zone system. So my conclusions are 1. It is not certain that tone equalizer is mature since the last big upda
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Hi Terry, Check out Bruce Williams excellent four part video series on new stuff in 3.4, he discusses the change of one of those modules to "surface blur" Watch them all, time well spent. Andrew On 6/1/21 12:46 pm, Terry Pinfold wrote: Hi Martin, I had read and have now reread the release notes https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/releases/tag/release-3.4.0 and saw no mention of denoise modules being renamed. Maybe I am reading the wrong release notes? Previously there had been denoise bilateral filter and denoise non-local means and they seem to have gone but astrophoto denoise has appeared. Also, I tried to find the zone system and put it into one of my groups, but it does not appear in the search result when I am trying to manage my presets. I am using Windows 10 if this is relevant. Thanks *From:* Martin Straeten *Sent:* Wednesday, 6 January 2021 10:53 AM *To:* Terry Pinfold *Cc:* tanya.rise...@gmail.com ; darktable forum *Subject:* Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!) You can use zone system even it’s deprecated. You just need to put in into the group you want to find it. or access it by searching for it. Some further denoise modules weren’t removed but renamed - sometimes it’s worth to read release notes .. Am 05.01.2021 um 23:45 schrieb Terry Pinfold : /"The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion."/ / / I would tend to agree with Tanya about keeping the zone system. While I much prefer the tone equalizer module over the zone system I feel having the choice to use or not use the zone system is best. What I really like about DT is the ability to have so many choices of modules to achieve your desired outcome. I can understand that modules may have to be deprecated if they can not be maintained or cause DT to not work correctly, but if this is not the case then I would agree that the zone system should be reinstated. I was also surprised to see some noise reduction modules have disappeared in the latest version of DT. I did like the options of multiple modules for tackling different noise issues. But in saying that I am impressed with the improvements to the denoise (profiled) module, especially the chrominance only preset in the hamburger. I really appreciate the effort of all the developers for producing my favourite editing program, but please only deprecate modules if you really have to. // /Thanks Terry/ On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 at 09:28, Tanya Riseman <mailto:tanya.rise...@gmail.com>> wrote: Thank you all for the tips on using tone equalizer. I am still digesting them, but have made a lot of progress. I am using DT 3.2 so that I can compare zone system and tone equalizer. I understand that tone equalizer in v. 3.4 is a lot better, but I am putting off upgrading to it due to the lack of zone system. I took a sample picture to edit, with a good range of black to white. I want to make it look like the classic B street photography with "inky blacks". In zone system I pushed the dark shadows down toward the black to get this effect. I also pushed the highlights toward the whites, but not as much. There are 8 points on the zone strip that one can vary. I am going for the look of "inky blacks" over preserving all the detail. In tone equalizer using the default mask type of guided filter and spreading the mask histogram as much as I could, I got about 3.5 points on the curve that could modify the picture. I could not get anything near to the result from zone system. Too grey. I tried choosing 'no' in preserve details (in the masking tab), as Juan suggested. Now the mask spans all 8 EV and I was able to get very close to my picture from zone system. So my conclusions are 1. It is not certain that tone equalizer is mature since the last big update is only from late December. 2. If tone equalizer is not yet mature, it is premature to deprecate the zone system module. 3. The tone equalizer "preserve details" option of "no" that basically replicates the zone system/ tone curve is very buried. Maybe it should be on the simple tab. To be honest I find the tone curve hard to use and was initially smitten with the simple tab on the tone equalizer. 4. Learning the tone equalizer is much harder than the zone system (thank you for the hand holding). This is a barrier for beginners; let them get their sea legs using the zone system as they learn techniques that go beyond basic sliders. 5. Obviously in using the tone equalizer, there are other images where the intention is more of preserving detail while not adjusting tone values more than the detail mask allows. I can think of documentary cases like bird phot
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Hi Martin, I had read and have now reread the release notes https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/releases/tag/release-3.4.0 and saw no mention of denoise modules being renamed. Maybe I am reading the wrong release notes? Previously there had been denoise bilateral filter and denoise non-local means and they seem to have gone but astrophoto denoise has appeared. Also, I tried to find the zone system and put it into one of my groups, but it does not appear in the search result when I am trying to manage my presets. I am using Windows 10 if this is relevant. Thanks From: Martin Straeten Sent: Wednesday, 6 January 2021 10:53 AM To: Terry Pinfold Cc: tanya.rise...@gmail.com ; darktable forum Subject: Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!) You can use zone system even it’s deprecated. You just need to put in into the group you want to find it. or access it by searching for it. Some further denoise modules weren’t removed but renamed - sometimes it’s worth to read release notes .. Am 05.01.2021 um 23:45 schrieb Terry Pinfold : "The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion." I would tend to agree with Tanya about keeping the zone system. While I much prefer the tone equalizer module over the zone system I feel having the choice to use or not use the zone system is best. What I really like about DT is the ability to have so many choices of modules to achieve your desired outcome. I can understand that modules may have to be deprecated if they can not be maintained or cause DT to not work correctly, but if this is not the case then I would agree that the zone system should be reinstated. I was also surprised to see some noise reduction modules have disappeared in the latest version of DT. I did like the options of multiple modules for tackling different noise issues. But in saying that I am impressed with the improvements to the denoise (profiled) module, especially the chrominance only preset in the hamburger. I really appreciate the effort of all the developers for producing my favourite editing program, but please only deprecate modules if you really have to. Thanks Terry On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 at 09:28, Tanya Riseman mailto:tanya.rise...@gmail.com>> wrote: Thank you all for the tips on using tone equalizer. I am still digesting them, but have made a lot of progress. I am using DT 3.2 so that I can compare zone system and tone equalizer. I understand that tone equalizer in v. 3.4 is a lot better, but I am putting off upgrading to it due to the lack of zone system. I took a sample picture to edit, with a good range of black to white. I want to make it look like the classic B street photography with "inky blacks". In zone system I pushed the dark shadows down toward the black to get this effect. I also pushed the highlights toward the whites, but not as much. There are 8 points on the zone strip that one can vary. I am going for the look of "inky blacks" over preserving all the detail. In tone equalizer using the default mask type of guided filter and spreading the mask histogram as much as I could, I got about 3.5 points on the curve that could modify the picture. I could not get anything near to the result from zone system. Too grey. I tried choosing 'no' in preserve details (in the masking tab), as Juan suggested. Now the mask spans all 8 EV and I was able to get very close to my picture from zone system. So my conclusions are 1. It is not certain that tone equalizer is mature since the last big update is only from late December. 2. If tone equalizer is not yet mature, it is premature to deprecate the zone system module. 3. The tone equalizer "preserve details" option of "no" that basically replicates the zone system/ tone curve is very buried. Maybe it should be on the simple tab. To be honest I find the tone curve hard to use and was initially smitten with the simple tab on the tone equalizer. 4. Learning the tone equalizer is much harder than the zone system (thank you for the hand holding). This is a barrier for beginners; let them get their sea legs using the zone system as they learn techniques that go beyond basic sliders. 5. Obviously in using the tone equalizer, there are other images where the intention is more of preserving detail while not adjusting tone values more than the detail mask allows. I can think of documentary cases like bird photos and scientific images. 6. The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion. Tanya Riseman darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org<mailto:darktable-user%2bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org> -- darktable user maili
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
You can use zone system even it’s deprecated. You just need to put in into the group you want to find it. or access it by searching for it. Some further denoise modules weren’t removed but renamed - sometimes it’s worth to read release notes .. > Am 05.01.2021 um 23:45 schrieb Terry Pinfold : > > > "The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion." > > I would tend to agree with Tanya about keeping the zone system. While I much > prefer the tone equalizer module over the zone system I feel having the > choice to use or not use the zone system is best. What I really like about DT > is the ability to have so many choices of modules to achieve your desired > outcome. I can understand that modules may have to be deprecated if they can > not be maintained or cause DT to not work correctly, but if this is not the > case then I would agree that the zone system should be reinstated. > > I was also surprised to see some noise reduction modules have disappeared in > the latest version of DT. I did like the options of multiple modules for > tackling different noise issues. But in saying that I am impressed with the > improvements to the denoise (profiled) module, especially the chrominance > only preset in the hamburger. I really appreciate the effort of all the > developers for producing my favourite editing program, but please only > deprecate modules if you really have to. > > Thanks Terry > >> On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 at 09:28, Tanya Riseman wrote: >> Thank you all for the tips on using tone equalizer. I am still digesting >> them, but have made a lot of progress. >> >> I am using DT 3.2 so that I can compare zone system and tone equalizer. I >> understand that tone equalizer in v. 3.4 is a lot better, but I am putting >> off upgrading to it due to the lack of zone system. >> >> I took a sample picture to edit, with a good range of black to white. I want >> to make it look like the classic B street photography with "inky blacks". >> In zone system I pushed the dark shadows down toward the black to get this >> effect. I also pushed the highlights toward the whites, but not as much. >> There are 8 points on the zone strip that one can vary. I am going for the >> look of "inky blacks" over preserving all the detail. >> >> In tone equalizer using the default mask type of guided filter and spreading >> the mask histogram as much as I could, I got about 3.5 points on the curve >> that could modify the picture. I could not get anything near to the result >> from zone system. Too grey. >> >> I tried choosing 'no' in preserve details (in the masking tab), as Juan >> suggested. Now the mask spans all 8 EV and I was able to get very close to >> my picture from zone system. >> >> So my conclusions are >> >> 1. It is not certain that tone equalizer is mature since the last big update >> is only from late December. >> >> 2. If tone equalizer is not yet mature, it is premature to deprecate the >> zone system module. >> >> 3. The tone equalizer "preserve details" option of "no" that basically >> replicates the zone system/ tone curve is very buried. Maybe it should be on >> the simple tab. To be honest I find the tone curve hard to use and was >> initially smitten with the simple tab on the tone equalizer. >> >> 4. Learning the tone equalizer is much harder than the zone system (thank >> you for the hand holding). This is a barrier for beginners; let them get >> their sea legs using the zone system as they learn techniques that go beyond >> basic sliders. >> >> 5. Obviously in using the tone equalizer, there are other images where the >> intention is more of preserving detail while not adjusting tone values more >> than the detail mask allows. I can think of documentary cases like bird >> photos and scientific images. >> >> 6. The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion. >> >> Tanya Riseman >> >> >> >> darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to >> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > > -- > > > > > darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > = darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
*"The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion."* I would tend to agree with Tanya about keeping the zone system. While I much prefer the tone equalizer module over the zone system I feel having the choice to use or not use the zone system is best. What I really like about DT is the ability to have so many choices of modules to achieve your desired outcome. I can understand that modules may have to be deprecated if they can not be maintained or cause DT to not work correctly, but if this is not the case then I would agree that the zone system should be reinstated. I was also surprised to see some noise reduction modules have disappeared in the latest version of DT. I did like the options of multiple modules for tackling different noise issues. But in saying that I am impressed with the improvements to the denoise (profiled) module, especially the chrominance only preset in the hamburger. I really appreciate the effort of all the developers for producing my favourite editing program, but please only deprecate modules if you really have to. *Thanks Terry* On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 at 09:28, Tanya Riseman wrote: > Thank you all for the tips on using tone equalizer. I am still digesting > them, but have made a lot of progress. > > I am using DT 3.2 so that I can compare zone system and tone equalizer. I > understand that tone equalizer in v. 3.4 is a lot better, but I am putting > off upgrading to it due to the lack of zone system. > > I took a sample picture to edit, with a good range of black to white. I > want to make it look like the classic B street photography with "inky > blacks". In zone system I pushed the dark shadows down toward the black to > get this effect. I also pushed the highlights toward the whites, but not as > much. There are 8 points on the zone strip that one can vary. I am going > for the look of "inky blacks" over preserving all the detail. > > In tone equalizer using the default mask type of guided filter and > spreading the mask histogram as much as I could, I got about 3.5 points on > the curve that could modify the picture. I could not get anything near to > the result from zone system. Too grey. > > I tried choosing 'no' in preserve details (in the masking tab), as Juan > suggested. Now the mask spans all 8 EV and I was able to get very close to > my picture from zone system. > > So my conclusions are > > 1. It is not certain that tone equalizer is mature since the last big > update is only from late December. > > 2. If tone equalizer is not yet mature, it is premature to deprecate the > zone system module. > > 3. The tone equalizer "preserve details" option of "no" that basically > replicates the zone system/ tone curve is very buried. Maybe it should be > on the simple tab. To be honest I find the tone curve hard to use and was > initially smitten with the simple tab on the tone equalizer. > > 4. Learning the tone equalizer is much harder than the zone system (thank > you for the hand holding). This is a barrier for beginners; let them get > their sea legs using the zone system as they learn techniques that go > beyond basic sliders. > > 5. Obviously in using the tone equalizer, there are other images where the > intention is more of preserving detail while not adjusting tone values more > than the detail mask allows. I can think of documentary cases like bird > photos and scientific images. > > 6. The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion. > > Tanya Riseman > > > > darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > -- darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
Thank you all for the tips on using tone equalizer. I am still digesting them, but have made a lot of progress. I am using DT 3.2 so that I can compare zone system and tone equalizer. I understand that tone equalizer in v. 3.4 is a lot better, but I am putting off upgrading to it due to the lack of zone system. I took a sample picture to edit, with a good range of black to white. I want to make it look like the classic B street photography with "inky blacks". In zone system I pushed the dark shadows down toward the black to get this effect. I also pushed the highlights toward the whites, but not as much. There are 8 points on the zone strip that one can vary. I am going for the look of "inky blacks" over preserving all the detail. In tone equalizer using the default mask type of guided filter and spreading the mask histogram as much as I could, I got about 3.5 points on the curve that could modify the picture. I could not get anything near to the result from zone system. Too grey. I tried choosing 'no' in preserve details (in the masking tab), as Juan suggested. Now the mask spans all 8 EV and I was able to get very close to my picture from zone system. So my conclusions are 1. It is not certain that tone equalizer is mature since the last big update is only from late December. 2. If tone equalizer is not yet mature, it is premature to deprecate the zone system module. 3. The tone equalizer "preserve details" option of "no" that basically replicates the zone system/ tone curve is very buried. Maybe it should be on the simple tab. To be honest I find the tone curve hard to use and was initially smitten with the simple tab on the tone equalizer. 4. Learning the tone equalizer is much harder than the zone system (thank you for the hand holding). This is a barrier for beginners; let them get their sea legs using the zone system as they learn techniques that go beyond basic sliders. 5. Obviously in using the tone equalizer, there are other images where the intention is more of preserving detail while not adjusting tone values more than the detail mask allows. I can think of documentary cases like bird photos and scientific images. 6. The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion. Tanya Riseman darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 at 19:40, Juan Navarro wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 10:00 PM KOVÁCS István wrote: >> >> [...] To replicate the same behaviour, you don't >> need the mask: select the 'simple tone curve' preset from the tone >> equalizer (this disables masking), > > > More precisely, choose 'no' in preserve details (in the masking tab), True, but I think using the preset is faster (it's in the 'hamburger' menu, you don't need to switch to a tab and fiddle with a specific control). > which doesn't disable the mask but disables *smoothing* of the mask Yes, that's more precise: it creates the mask using the luminosity of the individual pixels. Kofa darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 10:00 PM KOVÁCS István
wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 at 00:18, Tanya Riseman
> wrote:
>
> > You are supposed to use the tone equalizer module instead of the zone
> system module now. According to the manual, zone system is deprecated.
> >
> > The zone system is pretty easy for beginners to pick up.
> > The tone equalizer is much harder to get up to speed with. It lacks a 2D
> zone image.
> > It only has crosshairs that correspond to a hard to understand contrast
> mask, not the zone.
>
> The zone system was just one of the ways to define a tone curve. The
> resulting curve was applied at the pixel level (all pixels with a
> given value were affected the same way, without taking their
> surroundings into account). To replicate the same behaviour, you don't
> need the mask: select the 'simple tone curve' preset from the tone
> equalizer (this disables masking),
More precisely, choose 'no' in preserve details (in the masking tab), which
doesn't disable the mask but disables *smoothing* of the mask ("effect is
the same as using normal tone curves", according to the manual).
Juan
darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
On mardi 5 janvier 2021 00:37:09 CET Patrick Shanahan wrote: > * Tanya Riseman [01-04-21 18:20]: > > You are supposed to use the tone equalizer module instead of the zone > > system module now. According to the manual, zone system is deprecated. > > > > This really disappoints me. > > > > The zone system is pretty easy for beginners to pick up. (I've only used > > DT > > since August.) The 2D image of the different zones in the picture is > > really > > handy and I don't think it appears in any other modules. > > > > The tone equalizer is much harder to get up to speed with. It lacks a 2D > > zone image. It only has crosshairs that correspond to a hard to understand > > contrast mask, not the zone. Usually(?) in the dark regions, changes to > > the > > EV levels don't have any effect if you are outside of the mask's range of > > levels. Even if you optimize the mask. Very frustrating. You can kinda > > match the zone system results sometimes but after a much longer time of > > fiddling. It just is not a more generalized substitute for the zone > > system. > > They behave differently. > > > > I'd appreciate it if the developers restored the zone system. > > color zones is still there, just hidden by default > open an image in darkroom and just below the histogram is an input box > where you can search for modules by name and maybe description. type > "zone" and see what you get. > > ps: rtfm, it will help you and will describe the change to tone equalizer > and how to get color zones back. > > don't be down on the developers because you haven't read the very fine > manual. color zones != zone system The "zone system" module is now deprecated, and planned to be removed for new edits soon (it will stay in the code for existing edits, so there's no urgent need to redo those). Personally, I find the "tone equaliser" module at least as easy to use, once you get a bit familiar with the masking part. The view of the different zones/ tonalities is more precise, imho. Remco darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 at 00:18, Tanya Riseman wrote: > You are supposed to use the tone equalizer module instead of the zone system > module now. According to the manual, zone system is deprecated. > > The zone system is pretty easy for beginners to pick up. > The tone equalizer is much harder to get up to speed with. It lacks a 2D zone > image. > It only has crosshairs that correspond to a hard to understand contrast mask, > not the zone. The zone system was just one of the ways to define a tone curve. The resulting curve was applied at the pixel level (all pixels with a given value were affected the same way, without taking their surroundings into account). To replicate the same behaviour, you don't need the mask: select the 'simple tone curve' preset from the tone equalizer (this disables masking), switch to the 'advanced' tab, hover over the image, and start scrolling up and down to adjust brightness. That's pretty simple to use, I think. You could also use one of the other curves, too. It's important to understand what the tone EQ mask achieves. By using the mask, you establish the *average brightness level of each part* of the image, and then raise or lower the brightness of *each part* (it's still not completely local: all areas of the same average brightness will be treated the same way -- you can apply further masks, just like for any other module, to change that). This difference is very important: it allows you to keep local contrast. That is, if in a relatively dark region you have a few brighter details (say, in the midtones), raising the brightness of the dark *pixels* (whether using the zone system, the tone curve, RGB curve, base curve, or tone EQ without masking) the midtone pixels will be less affected (or not at all): the brightness difference decreases, contrast is lost in details. With the mask, all pixels in that region are affected the same way: the midtone pixels in a dark area will be brightened along with their surroundings, and contrast is kept. If you use the tone EQ to compress the dynamic range (global contrast), the same midtone pixels, in the middle of a bright area, could be darkened, maintaining local contrast intact; with traditional curves (and the zone system module) the midtone pixels would be either brightened or darkened everywhere the same way. The 'zone map' of the zone system module is actually misleading, as it implies the module really divides the image into areas based on brightness, and then acts on the areas, but it does not actually do that. Kofa darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)
* Tanya Riseman [01-04-21 18:20]: > You are supposed to use the tone equalizer module instead of the zone > system module now. According to the manual, zone system is deprecated. > > This really disappoints me. > > The zone system is pretty easy for beginners to pick up. (I've only used DT > since August.) The 2D image of the different zones in the picture is really > handy and I don't think it appears in any other modules. > > The tone equalizer is much harder to get up to speed with. It lacks a 2D > zone image. It only has crosshairs that correspond to a hard to understand > contrast mask, not the zone. Usually(?) in the dark regions, changes to the > EV levels don't have any effect if you are outside of the mask's range of > levels. Even if you optimize the mask. Very frustrating. You can kinda > match the zone system results sometimes but after a much longer time of > fiddling. It just is not a more generalized substitute for the zone system. > They behave differently. > > I'd appreciate it if the developers restored the zone system. color zones is still there, just hidden by default open an image in darkroom and just below the histogram is an input box where you can search for modules by name and maybe description. type "zone" and see what you get. ps: rtfm, it will help you and will describe the change to tone equalizer and how to get color zones back. don't be down on the developers because you haven't read the very fine manual. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.orgopenSUSE Community Memberfacebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
