Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
also sprach W. Martin Borgert [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008.11.25.2017 +0100]: I would very much appreciate, if Debian would not publish job offers that discriminate on the grounds of race, ethnic origin, disability, age, gender, sexual orientation or religion. Not only it is illegal in some countries, I find it highly inappropriate for our project. Thanks for your attention. Wolfgang, please stop this. Putting a maximum age into a job description is standard practice because a company does not want to invest time and money into a new employee for various reasons, be they simple age and thus time left to work for the company, absorptive capacity, or company culture. I know it's hip in Debian to point fingers and accuse people of discriminating, but please let's not lose touch with reality here, okay? This form of headless drive for political correctness on all levels and at all costs will simply decrease overall tolerance levels further. Calling something discriminatory is the easy way out. Judging whether it actually is, and dealing with it, is the hard bit, the one that requires (and builds) character. http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html -- .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : proud Debian developer, author, administrator, and user `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck - http://debiansystem.info `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems it has been said about the EPO that if you fart in front of their building, you are granted a patent on 'gas tank depressurizing by opening a venting pipe.' -- gyrosgeier on #debian-devel digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/)
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:11:13AM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach W. Martin Borgert [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008.11.25.2017 +0100]: I would very much appreciate, if Debian would not publish job offers that discriminate on the grounds of race, ethnic origin, disability, age, gender, sexual orientation or religion. Not only it is illegal in some countries, I find it highly inappropriate for our project. Thanks for your attention. Wolfgang, please stop this. Putting a maximum age into a job description is standard practice because a company does not want to invest time and money into a new employee for various reasons, be they simple age and thus time left to work for the company, absorptive capacity, or company culture. Sorry, but I'm with Wolfgang on this one. I'm pretty sure that this standard practice is illegal in most of EU countries (judging by existence of EU directive 2000/78/EC) and in the US, and I would expect similar laws to exist in any country to be considered civilized. It's pretty unfortunate that Switzerland does not have any law in place preventing age discrimination [0], and I believe that in the spirit of Debian we should not provide a forum for posting discriminatory job offers. I suggest to have the blurb at http://lists.debian.org/debian-jobs/ modified to reflect this. [0] http://www.agediscrimination.info/international/Pages/Switzerland.aspx Best regards, -- Jurij Smakov [EMAIL PROTECTED] Key: http://www.wooyd.org/pgpkey/ KeyID: C99E03CC -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
also sprach Jurij Smakov [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008.11.26.1039 +0100]: Sorry, but I'm with Wolfgang on this one. I'm pretty sure that this standard practice is illegal in most of EU countries (judging by existence of EU directive 2000/78/EC) and in the US, and I would expect similar laws to exist in any country to be considered civilized. Please get a grip. The directive you quote states Member States may provide that differences of treatment on grounds of age shall not constitute discrimination, if, within the context of national law, they are objectively and reasonably justified by a legitimate aim, including legitimate employment policy, labour market and vocational training objectives, and if the means of achieving that aim are appropriate and necessary. Such differences of treatment may include, among others: (a) the setting of special conditions on access to employment and vocational training, employment and occupation, including dismissal and remuneration conditions, for young people, older workers and persons with caring responsibili- ties in order to promote their vocational integration or ensure their protection; (b) the fixing of minimum conditions of age, professional experience or seniority in service for access to employment or to certain advantages linked to employment; (c) the fixing of a maximum age for recruitment which is based on the training requirements of the post in question or the need for a reasonable period of employment before retirement. If there were a country that required me to hire people independently of age, I'd surely take my business elsewhere. You may be 70 and capable to do a job which required me to invest 2 years into you, but the chance of you waking up dead is far higher than of a 30-year-old. Plain fact, no discrimination. This is the business world, where concepts like return-of-investment are paramount, and the RoI of a 70-year-old, as good as s/he may be, is just nowhere near that of a younger applicant. Note how the job description doesn't say we don't want old farts or discriminated in any way. In fact, it nicely informs you about the requirement the company has, instead of e.g. looking at someone's application and turning him/her down for a fake reason to cover up the age. Discrimination is a trendy word which bites, because it's been hammered upon us by the media and politicians to the point of no return, has completely lost its meaning, and has managed to cause serious damage to such things as tolerance and sensible judgement. Please don't succomb to this trend. It blurs your vision and prevents you from identifying and properly reacting to real instances of discrimination. It's pretty unfortunate that Switzerland does not have any law in place preventing age discrimination. It's pretty fortunate that Switzerland doesn't blindly follow everything the EU does. -- .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : proud Debian developer, author, administrator, and user `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck - http://debiansystem.info `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems Escape Meta Alt Control Shift digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/)
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
On Wednesday 2008-11-26, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach W. Martin Borgert [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008.11.25.2017 +0100]: I would very much appreciate, if Debian would not publish job offers that discriminate on the grounds of race, ethnic origin, disability, age, gender, sexual orientation or religion. Not only it is illegal in some countries, I find it highly inappropriate for our project. Thanks for your attention. Wolfgang, please stop this. Putting a maximum age into a job description is standard practice because a company does not want to invest time and money into a new employee for various reasons, be they simple age and thus time left to work for the company, absorptive capacity, or company culture. as to the invested time thing: 1) who's to say that the 35 year old won't leave in a year or two years time? 2) standard pension age is 65, working for the same company for 30+ years is now unusual - if you want a garantee of time worked for time/money invested put it in the contract (military does it around here for engineers they put through college) As to company culture: not everybody is typical of their age group, so judging 'fitting the company culture' purely by age is gonna lead to problems on both sides of the age line. How about instead describing your company culture and adding a requirement that applicants fit in. not sure what you mean by 'absorvative capacity' I know it's hip in Debian to point fingers and accuse people of discriminating, but please let's not lose touch with reality here, okay? sigh: a particular act of discrimination might very well be defensible or even desirable, but that doesn't make the act any less discriminatory. This form of headless drive for political correctness on all levels and at all costs will simply decrease overall tolerance levels further. Calling something discriminatory is the easy way out. In this case it's just calling a spade a spade. Of course it's just stating a fact and by itself that's not enought to get to a sensible conclusion. Judging whether it actually is, and dealing with it, is the hard bit, the one that requires (and builds) character. the necessary judging isn't about it being discriminatory or not, but about wether particular act (disriminatory or not) is a good/acceptable thing. -- Cheers, Cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
Holger Levsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I support Jurjs proposal of adding a Please no discriminatory job offers or such to http://lists.debian.org/debian-jobs/ I do not. Any employer selecting employees to hire is, by definition, discriminating based on particular criteria. If nothing else, they are (we hope!) discriminating based on demonstrated ability to perform the job functions. So we can't simply request job adverts avoid “discriminatory job offers”. What seems to be the issue is that some people find the particular stated discriminatory *criteria* to be objectionable ones. So presumably you would want such a request to say something like “Please no job offers that discriminate based on objectionable criteria”. Hopefully when I present it like that the problem becomes apparent: who is going to define “objectionable criteria” for job offers, and what authority do they have for that definition? -- \ “If sharing a thing in no way diminishes it, it is not rightly | `\ owned if it is not shared.” —Saint Augustine | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
Any employer selecting employees to hire is, by definition, discriminating based on particular criteria. If nothing else, they are (we hope!) discriminating based on demonstrated ability to perform the job functions. So we can't simply request job adverts avoid discriminatory job offers. Abilities, knowledge, experience, etc. can be acquired; age cannot. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
Le Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:55:09PM +1100, Ben Finney a écrit : What seems to be the issue is that some people find the particular stated discriminatory *criteria* to be objectionable ones. So presumably you would want such a request to say something like “Please no job offers that discriminate based on objectionable criteria”. Hi all, I would rather propose: Please post only job offers that discriminate people who send too many messages to too many mailing lists. Then there would be a direct benefit for Debian. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
On Wed, 26 Nov 2008, Charles Plessy wrote: Please post only job offers that discriminate people who send too many messages to too many mailing lists. Then there would be a direct benefit for Debian. ;-) Come on Charles - it's obviousely flaming season. We had nearly one year without heavy flames. But people seem to enjoy this these days and it's winter time at Northern hemisphere where many participiants in these flames are sitting. But why not using debian-curiosa for this hobby? Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 08:17:22PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: Requirements: ... * Younger than 35 years I would very much appreciate, if Debian would not publish job offers that discriminate on the grounds of race, ethnic origin, disability, age, gender, sexual orientation or religion. Not only it is illegal in some countries, I find it highly inappropriate for our project. Thanks for your attention. Everything is illegal in some countries, so that can't be an argument for keeping this sort of thing off our job boards. And while this sort of discrimination is highly distasteful, I don't believe we're going to come up with criteria acceptable to the entire project for screening these posts. The various opionions seen already in this thread support that. Personally, I can't see how any company that would turn away a more qualified candidate in favor of one less qualified based solely on something like age has much hope of lasting very long. Nor would I be sorry to see it go. noah signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
First off, can we please refrain from uselessly crossposting? This isn't a job offer, so it doesn't belong on -jobs. I'm not even convinced that it belongs on -project, but I'll respond here once since it's at least marginally related to the project. In the future, if you have a concern about the management of the Debian mailing lists, [EMAIL PROTECTED] is the right place to contact. On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, W. Martin Borgert wrote: I would very much appreciate, if Debian would not publish job offers that discriminate on the grounds of race, ethnic origin, disability, age, gender, sexual orientation or religion. Not only it is illegal in some countries, I find it highly inappropriate for our project. If moderation was occuring before mailing list distribution, this would be a requeest to consider. As there isn't, there's not much to discuss. Please consider contacting privately those who post jobs whose requirements you find objectionable and educating them with regards to their local laws and/or your views of acceptable organizational behavior instead. Debian itself isn't publishing these offers, nor should you construe any posting on any mailing list as an approval (or disapproval) of any thought or ideal by the Debian project itself. Please feel free to unsubscribe from mailing lists if this is problematic. Don Armstrong (for himself) -- Who is thinking this? I am. -- Greg Egan _Diaspora_ p38 http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
Hi, On Wednesday 26 November 2008 10:11, martin f krafft wrote: Putting a maximum age into a job description is standard practice because a company does not want to invest time and money into a new employee for various reasons, be they simple age and thus time left to work for the company, absorptive capacity, or company culture. So what? The same can be said (for example) for hiring only females for certain jobs (nicer telephone voice, more appealing to (male) customers, whatever crap). That's also (somewhat) standard practice in Germany, while being illegal. I support Jurjs proposal of adding a Please no discriminatory job offers or such to http://lists.debian.org/debian-jobs/ And I also suggest not to freak out about every bit of discrimination, esp. as this project is foremost about creating a free universal operating system... regards, Holger pgpSC3jYSBB5H.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
Rafal Czlonka [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Any employer selecting employees to hire is, by definition, discriminating based on particular criteria. If nothing else, they are (we hope!) discriminating based on demonstrated ability to perform the job functions. So we can't simply request job adverts avoid discriminatory job offers. Abilities, knowledge, experience, etc. can be acquired; Right. But just because an employer discriminates on the basis of any of these criteria doesn't stop it being discrimination. I repeat, employers *must* discriminate, usually based on some attributes of the employee. age cannot. Indeed. So you've found at least one criterion that you would prefer to be absent from those used to discriminate. What I'm pointing out is that “discrimination” cannot be expected to not occur, because it's entirely essential to the process. Clearly what is being objected to is *not* the act of discrimination, but what particular *criteria* are used for discrimination. If you want to prevent *unfair* discrimination, you must first agree what specifically constitutes fair or unfair criteria; if you want to prevent *objectionable* criteria, you must first agree which specific criteria are objectionable. Good luck with that. -- \ “I moved into an all-electric house. I forgot and left the | `\ porch light on all day. When I got home the front door wouldn't | _o__)open.” —Steven Wright | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:01:54PM +, Rafal Czlonka wrote: Any employer selecting employees to hire is, by definition, discriminating based on particular criteria. If nothing else, they are (we hope!) discriminating based on demonstrated ability to perform the job functions. So we can't simply request job adverts avoid discriminatory job offers. Abilities, knowledge, experience, etc. can be acquired; age cannot. This seems like a fairly arbitrary and incomplete definition of what would constitute non-objectionable discriminatory criteria. If I was wanting to hire a telephone operative, the ability to speak would be essential. The ability to see would be essential for driving and the ability to walk might be essential for some other jobs. If I wanted to hire a male model, the ability to be male would be essential! -- Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 08:17:22PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: I would very much appreciate, if Debian would not publish job offers that discriminate on the grounds of race, ethnic origin, disability, age, gender, sexual orientation or religion. Not only it is illegal in some countries, I find it highly inappropriate for our project. Thanks for your attention. I strongly concur. This is blatant age discrimination. I don't know Swiss/EU law, and I'm not an attorney, so I can't comment on whether it's legal there. But it's obviously unethical, and completely unacceptable. ---Rsk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You may be 70 and capable to do a job which required me to invest 2 years into you, but the chance of you waking up dead is far higher than of a 30-year-old. Plain fact, no discrimination. More accurately: it *is* discrimination (because people are being selected based on some criterion), but what is at issue is whether it is *unfair* discrimination. Discrimination is a trendy word which bites, because it's been hammered upon us by the media and politicians to the point of no return, has completely lost its meaning, and has managed to cause serious damage to such things as tolerance and sensible judgement. Indeed; discrimination is essential to getting anything done at all. The trick is to avoid unfair discrimination. Please don't succomb to this trend. It blurs your vision and prevents you from identifying and properly reacting to real instances of discrimination. Using the correct phrase “unfair discrimination” helps communicate more directly what is at issue. -- \ “I am amazed, O Wall, that you have not collapsed and fallen, | `\since you must bear the tedious stupidities of so many | _o__) scrawlers.” —anonymous graffiti, Pompeii, 79 | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
Le mercredi 26 novembre 2008 à 09:39 +, Jurij Smakov a écrit : Sorry, but I'm with Wolfgang on this one. I'm pretty sure that this standard practice is illegal in most of EU countries (judging by existence of EU directive 2000/78/EC) Bullshit. Most jobs in public administrations have a legal age limit, and that’s not violating EU directives. -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
On Wed, November 26, 2008 11:12, martin f krafft wrote: You may be 70 and capable to do a job which required me to invest 2 years into you, I'd be with you if the ad required a maximum age that was actually somewhere close to the pension age. Your example does not compare with the arbitrary age limit of 35 years that was mentioned. I know a few Linux System Engineers of above 35 years old, and they would all function fine for the many decades until they reach EOL. but the chance of you waking up dead is far higher than of a 30-year-old. The chance of getting pregnant is remarkably higher for women than for men, and the associated leave is often costly for an employer. Do you think it's fair to preclude females in an ad? Thijs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
martin f krafft writes: also sprach W. Martin Borgert [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008.11.25.2017 +0100]: I would very much appreciate, if Debian would not publish job offers that discriminate on the grounds of race, ethnic origin, disability, age, gender, sexual orientation or religion. Not only it is illegal in some countries, I find it highly inappropriate for our project. Thanks for your attention. Wolfgang, please stop this. Putting a maximum age into a job description is standard practice because a company does not want to invest time and money into a new employee for various reasons, be they simple age and thus time left to work for the company, absorptive capacity, or company culture. It may be standard practice in some places, and legal under the applicable laws in this case. However, Wolfgang is right. This kind of age limit has been illegal in the United States for 40 years. Wikipedia has a summary at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Discrimination_in_Employment_Act . I am rather surprised that the majority reaction to this is so different from the majority reaction to a poorly executed satire -- something which was also claimed to be discriminatory. Michael Poole -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
Jurij Smakov [EMAIL PROTECTED] (26/11/2008): It's pretty unfortunate that Switzerland does not have any law in place preventing age discrimination [0], and I believe that in the spirit of Debian we should not provide a forum for posting discriminatory job offers. I suggest to have the blurb at http://lists.debian.org/debian-jobs/ modified to reflect this. You're being discriminatory towards Switzerland and pointing fingers!!!1oneoneleven¡¡¡ That is not acceptable behaviour! Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
also sprach Andreas Tille [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008.11.26.1323 +0100]: Come on Charles - it's obviousely flaming season. We had nearly one year without heavy flames. But people seem to enjoy this these days and it's winter time at Northern hemisphere where many participiants in these flames are sitting. But why not using debian-curiosa for this hobby? Please take your discriminatory prejudice elsewhere. I don't enjoy this. And I am not sitting. -- .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : proud Debian developer, author, administrator, and user `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck - http://debiansystem.info `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems tempt not a desperate man. -- william shakespeare digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/)
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
On 2008-11-26 11:12 +0100, martin f krafft wrote: If there were a country that required me to hire people independently of age, I'd surely take my business elsewhere. You may be 70 and capable to do a job which required me to invest 2 years into you, but the chance of you waking up dead is far higher than of a 30-year-old. Plain fact, no discrimination. This is the business world, where concepts like return-of-investment are paramount, and the RoI of a 70-year-old, as good as s/he may be, is just nowhere near that of a younger applicant. Just a little nitpicking, Martin: you got the age numbers wrong, s/70/35/g corrects that. Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:48:27PM +1100, Ben Finney wrote: More accurately: it *is* discrimination (because people are being selected based on some criterion), but what is at issue is whether it is *unfair* discrimination. Well said. Next on our list of politically correct items to complain about should be all this blatant and unethical competency discrimination. Totally unacceptable. Don't discriminate folks, hire everyone! -- Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
* Don Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-11-26 04:45]: If moderation was occuring before mailing list distribution, this would be a requeest to consider. As there isn't, there's not much to discuss. Actually, debian-jobs is moderated. I'm the acting moderator. -- Martin Michlmayr http://www.cyrius.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
Am 2008-11-25 20:17:22, schrieb W. Martin Borgert: I would very much appreciate, if Debian would not publish job offers that discriminate on the grounds of race, ethnic origin, disability, age, gender, sexual orientation or religion. Not only it is illegal in some countries, I find it highly inappropriate for our project. Thanks for your attention. And if this is a young enterprise wher the founder/owner are young as 23-25 years... I know several enterprises created by university absolvents and the demands to be younger then 35 years is NOT a discrimination... Note: I employ only women (IT and Electronic) Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator 24V Electronic Engineer Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 +49/177/935194750, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 23:53:43 +1100 Ben Finney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Poole [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am rather surprised that the majority reaction to this is so different from the majority reaction to a poorly executed satire -- something which was also claimed to be discriminatory. Actually, I agree that most of W. Martin Borgert's list of criteria (“race, ethnic origin, disability, age, gender, sexual orientation or religion”) are objectionable for job offers using Debian's resources. Which by the way are also guaranteed in the Charter of Rights of Freedoms of Canada (which is the preamble to the constituation (actually I believe it's the Constitution Act or some such, but I digress)). I was in fact surprised to learn that there are people who find age discrimination acceptable. As someone pointed out, leaving a company in two years is just as likely (maybe more likely) for a young candidate so the argument of ROI is crap. It's unfair and unethical discrimination. You might not think so right now because you are young, but when you're older your opinion will likely be different. Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org The C Shore: http://www.wightman.ca/~cshore signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
martin f krafft dijo [Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:11:13AM +0100]: Wolfgang, please stop this. Putting a maximum age into a job description is standard practice because a company does not want to invest time and money into a new employee for various reasons, be they simple age and thus time left to work for the company, absorptive capacity, or company culture. Huh? Absorptive capacity is individual-related. Some people will absorb less at 25 than others at 45. Company culture is some kind of cultural discrimination, although it could be the only valid point in your mail. Now, time left to work for the company? In my country, _very_ few people retire before 50, and I believe that to be the case elsewhere. So, is a company turning people down because they might not be interested in working... over 15 years as a sysadmin? Please... This form of headless drive for political correctness on all levels and at all costs will simply decrease overall tolerance levels further. Calling something discriminatory is the easy way out. Judging whether it actually is, and dealing with it, is the hard bit, the one that requires (and builds) character. In my book, political correctness is bullshit, and I tend to call things by their name. Probably if I lived in the US I'd have my ass over-sued. And no, it's not Debian's flaw or problem - but Wolfgang's complaint is IMHO very well in place. It will reach the clueless HR recruiter, and -as he posted to -jobs- probably other HR people pondering on writing to Debian. Now, your and my rant are well enough in -project, so I dropped -jobs from the Cc: :) Greetings, -- Gunnar Wolf - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Debian's job is not to help people who think the world is unfair (was: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich)
also sprach Gunnar Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008.11.26.1807 +0100]: And no, it's not Debian's flaw or problem - but Wolfgang's complaint is IMHO very well in place. It will reach the clueless HR recruiter, and -as he posted to -jobs- probably other HR people pondering on writing to Debian. This is precisely my problem, it comes across as a statement from Debian, when in fact it is the voice of a few people (who seem to have little idea about HR and running a business). This is why I replied on -jobs, because Debian does *not* have any policy preventing or allowing job offers with age restrictions. If you don't like the job offer, don't apply. If you want that job but you are too old, convince them and go to court if you feel like they are acting unlawfully. But please refrain from calling it unfair (it's a bloody *offer*) and expecting the project to do something about it. -- .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : proud Debian developer, author, administrator, and user `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck - http://debiansystem.info `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems in the figure of the president, george w. bush, the incompetence, stupidity, and sheer inhumanity that characterize so much of america's money-mad corporate elite find their quintessentially repulsive expression. -- journalist, aftermath of katrina digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/)
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
* W. Martin Borgert: Quoting Andre Timmermann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: We are searching for a system engineer in in Zurich, Switzerland. ... Requirements: ... * Younger than 35 years I would very much appreciate, if Debian would not publish job offers that discriminate on the grounds of race, ethnic origin, disability, age, gender, sexual orientation or religion. Not only it is illegal in some countries, I find it highly inappropriate for our project. I think it's a bit offensive, too. A more agreeable way to put it is Entry level to 2 years experience (from another job ad). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's job is not to help people who think the world is unfair (was: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich)
On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 06:17:45PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Gunnar Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008.11.26.1807 +0100]: And no, it's not Debian's flaw or problem - but Wolfgang's complaint is IMHO very well in place. It will reach the clueless HR recruiter, and -as he posted to -jobs- probably other HR people pondering on writing to Debian. This is precisely my problem, it comes across as a statement from Debian, when in fact it is the voice of a few people (who seem to have little idea about HR and running a business). This is why I replied on -jobs, because Debian does *not* have any policy preventing or allowing job offers with age restrictions. You are correct, we don't have such a policy in place. However, one of our foundation documents (which I'm reasonably proud of) claims that we will not accept any software with license which discriminates against any person or group of persons into the distribution. Yes, it's a stretch, because we can be fairly sure that people (as opposed to firmware :-) are not software, and they don't have a license. I, however, have a difficulty understanding the mindset of people who can, at the same time, stand behind these principles, and be comfortable with what looks to me as a clear-cut example of unfair age discrimination (thanks to Ben for suggesting the correct wording). If you don't like the job offer, don't apply. If you want that job but you are too old, convince them and go to court if you feel like they are acting unlawfully. But please refrain from calling it unfair (it's a bloody *offer*) and expecting the project to do something about it. I don't see why the project shouldn't feel empowered to do something about it. It was not my intention, however, to start a flame war, and I'm not going to pursue the idea of modifying posting guidelines for debian-jobs, given quite unexpected fierce resistance. I already got my fair share of entertainment out of this thread and not going to contribute to it further. Best regards, -- Jurij Smakov [EMAIL PROTECTED] Key: http://www.wooyd.org/pgpkey/ KeyID: C99E03CC -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Debian's job is not to help people at the World's Fair
On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 08:54:40PM +, Jurij Smakov wrote: This is precisely my problem, it comes across as a statement from Debian, when in fact it is the voice of a few people (who seem to have little idea about HR and running a business). This is why I replied on -jobs, because Debian does *not* have any policy preventing or allowing job offers with age restrictions. You are correct, we don't have such a policy in place. However, one of our foundation documents (which I'm reasonably proud of) claims that we will not accept any software with license which discriminates against any person or group of persons into the distribution. Yes, it's a stretch, because we can be fairly sure that people (as opposed to firmware :-) are not software, and they don't have a license. I, however, have a difficulty understanding the mindset of people who can, at the same time, stand behind these principles, and be comfortable with what looks to me as a clear-cut example of unfair age discrimination (thanks to Ben for suggesting the correct wording). I don't condone age discrimination in hiring practices, but I also object to all instances of the fallacy the DFSG says we don't accept software licenses that discriminate, therefore it's also wrong to discriminate against $foo. First, the only requirement for Debian developers is that you agree to uphold the principles of the DFSG/SC *in your work in Debian*. There is no requirement that you internalize these principles as your personal philosophy, even in terms of the right way to develop a free OS. I don't doubt that among our thousand-plus developers, we would find at least some who wouldn't mind it if Debian included software whose license discriminated against particular persons or groups... as long as the persons or groups discriminated against are ones that *they* don't like. Second, even if you accept that the DFSG is the right way to go about licensing an OS, you may believe this for entirely pragmatic reasons: e.g., you believe being inclusive and neutral wrt your userbase increases the market for the OS and the pool of developers and therefore makes Debian better, even if it means you have to tolerate people using your software whom you would prefer to ostracize from the planet (or, even if it means you can't accept software into Debian with such intolerant licensing); or you believe that not allowing discriminatory licenses saves us from a certain class of needless flamewars. Finally, what the DFSG says is that the license must not discriminate against *any* person or group of persons - the scope of this is much greater than must not discriminate against any groups which are protected classes under US law, or the like; it says /no/ discrimination is allowed, and that's simply not analogous to how any person conducts themselves in their life at large. Debian itself discriminates against people who won't agree to the SC by denying them DD status; I discrminate against Republicans and others who betray the founding principles of the United States for personal profit; we all discriminate against companies that give bad service by trying to avoid giving them our repeat business; and so on. Analogies between the DFSG's no discrimination clause and discrimination in our personal or professional lives fall down, because we're just not talking about the same kind of discrimination. So let's please discuss (or not) age discrimination in its own right, and not turn this into our priorities are old users and free software for babies. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Wolfgang, please stop this. Putting a maximum age into a job description is standard practice because a company does not want to invest time and money into a new employee for various reasons, be they simple age and thus time left to work for the company, absorptive capacity, or company culture. Different people in different countries probably have different reactions to this. For example, I'm fairly sure that job ad is illegal in the United States. Discriminating in employment on account of age against someone over the age of 40 is flat-out illegal here unless there are bona fide occupational qualifications reasonably necessary to the normal operation of the particular business or unless the age limit is above 65 (or 60 for aircraft pilots). The reason you cite is explicitly (in case law) not a bona fide occupational qualification; the bar for that is relatively high and limited to such things as an actor for a young part in a movie or public safety reasons related to age. Were this job advertisement published in the United States and someone over the age of forty turned down because of the age restriction, they could sue and would probably win, quite possibly including punative damages. I'm not a lawyer, but I have had to take introductory legal training in exactly this topic as part of mandated harassment training for staff in supervisory positions, and this was discussed explicitly, at length, and was a topic of exam questions. -- Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich
also sprach Russ Allbery [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008.11.27.0152 +0100]: For example, I'm fairly sure that job ad is illegal in the United States. [...] Were this job advertisement published in the United States and someone over the age of forty turned down because of the age restriction, they could sue and would probably win, quite possibly including punative damages. In the US, you could probably sue a company for not making you a job offer in the first place. But that's not the issue here. The issue is that the age restriction on the job offer is not Debian's issue, just like providing software in our archive which is illegal in Germany[0] is not Debian's concern either. 0. http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=277794#11 I'm not a lawyer, but I have had to take introductory legal training in exactly this topic as part of mandated harassment training for staff in supervisory positions, and this was discussed explicitly, at length, and was a topic of exam questions. I maintain that informing interested parties up front about an age requirement in a job *offer*/ad is not the same as turning down (or firing) someone for _no other_ reason than age. I am pretty sure that neither of those would be acceptable in .ch or the EU either. But this is the company stating hey, we have our reasons for why we want a 35-year-old so we thought you better know up front. It does not say if you are 35, we will not even open the door for you. Anyway, I guess the issue is settled. -- .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] Related projects: : :' : proud Debian developer http://debiansystem.info `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduckhttp://vcs-pkg.org `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems there's an old proverb that says just about whatever you want it to. digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/)
