Have we considered a codename 'rolling' for testing before?

[Martin Stadtler]

Hi All,

I am certain this has come up in the past, but have we considered adding
the codename/label rolling to testing?  I have looked through the mail
lists, with nothing jumping out recently.  I know I am not the only one
that does use testing, at least in part for this reason.  Also, if there is
a better debian mailing list for this subject, just let me know.

1.  Motivation:  Why? Because I had an eye-opening experience recently with
a discord channel  'Linux on Asus ROG', where they essentially discouraged
Debian outright.  Paraphrasing this a little: *Avoid using Ubuntu or
distributions based on Ubuntu, such as Debian, on newer devices. As its
kernel version is outdated and lacks timely updates, potentially hindering
the performance of your laptop. You might face compatibility issues with
recent hardware, instead, you might want to look into Fedora or Arch for
better support*.  Ignore the mix-up around what comes first, Ubuntu or
Debian, already mentioned that.

They do have a point, consider it a canary in the coal mine for other
projects not recommending Debian.  If the perception of the wording
'testing' is scaring away many that would be open to a rolling version of
Debian. With all the risk, possible danger and adventures that come with
it, as one does with Arch or other rolling releases, we should look at how
to change that fear.

2, Proposal:  Propose the addition of “Debian Rolling” as a complementary
codename/label for the existing Debian Testing branch. This initiative is
intended to enhance the visibility and understanding of the continuous
update cycle that the Testing branch offers, without replacing or
diminishing its current role and identity.

3.  Motivation Behind the Proposal:
* Enhanced Clarity and Appeal: The codename/label “Debian Rolling” is
intended to provide clearer insight into the nature of the Testing branch
for those unfamiliar with Debian's development cycle, potentially
attracting users interested in a blend of stability and freshness in
software.
* Broadening User Base: By introducing “Debian Rolling,” we can cater to a
segment of the Linux community that prefers rolling releases, without
steering away from the stability and reliability that Debian Testing offers.
* Community Engagement: This additional name aims to encourage more users
to participate in the testing phase, contributing to a more robust and
stable future for Debian, driven by increased testing and feedback.

4. Alternative: Maybe just clearly stating that debian testing is used as a
'rolling release' may help resolve such situations as the one that I am
pointing out.  I would prefer the codename/label for sure, being pragmatic
wording in the wiki may suffice to clarify,
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianTesting.  The last thing I think we all want
to avoid is where upstream projects do not consider debian when developing
their software, due to misunderstandings.

wdyt?

/mes

-- 
*Martin Stadler*
mar...@sansnom.co.uk

Re: Re: The Community Team Needs You!

[Martin Stadtler]

Steve,

I would be keen to join in and help, sign me up.

/mes

-- 
*Martin Stadler*
mar...@sansnom.co.uk

Re: Results of the Debian Developer's Survey about Usage of Money in Debian

[Martin]

On 2023-04-05 00:22, M. Zhou wrote:
> The date on the first page is ambiguous. 10/03/2023 can be in either
> the MM/DD/ or the DD/MM/ format.

That's, why ISO 8601 exist :-) Sorry, couldn't resist bike shedding.

Re: We need to define a path for Debian to climate neutrality

[Martin]

On 2022-09-21 06:49, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> I still think this. Perhaps starting with a dedicated mailing list;
> debian-sustainability or debian-climate or debian-?
>
> Does anyone interested in this topic feel strongly for or against the
> idea of creating a list to discuss taking it further?

I don't feel strongly about it, but I would subscribe.

Re: We need to define a path for Debian to climate neutrality

[Martin]

On 2022-04-13 11:01, Sandro Tosi wrote:
> please do not transform Debian in an activist project (i wont comment
> on the carbon neutrality proposal). Debian has one goal: provide a
> universal operating system. this is where it starts and this is where
> it ends, and that's all the "else" that we can do.
>
> You're free to support all your passions, missions and projects
> OUTSIDE of Debian. The Debian project is not your echo chamber for
> your activism.

I agree with your proposition, that Debian should focus on its goal to
provide a universal operating system. It should not become an activist
group for purposes other than free software. Debian must not participate
in occupying forrests or blocking motorways.

However, I do not see, that if Debian tries to become "carbon neutral"
(or better: just not too bad for the environment) itself, this would be
activism of any form. None of Julians ideas sound like activism to me,
but more like what some companies start to do right now.

I suggest to form an informal team first, where people can gather ideas.
Julian, maybe you can organise a BoF at DebConf about this issue?
I'll be there and be assured, I'll travel by train.

Cheers

Re: Chromium on Debian 11

[Martin Steigerwald]

phil995511 - - 17.04.22, 14:17:11 CEST:
> My post is trying to bring your attention to a major issue, nothing
> more, if you're too tired take a vacation, but respect my request and
> make sure to fix issues of Chromium on Debian Stable updates that
> aren't sufficient as it is.

There is nothing wrong with pointing that out. And I think you have a 
valid point here.

But the way you did… was not really appropriate or helpful.

> I would have tried to make you aware of it, I will not do it again x
> times, I will simply migrate to another OS if you remain in this
> situation or the apps such as Chromium are not seriously updated
> enough, which I do not don't find it satisfactory, like a lot of
> other Linux users. Afterwards, if you need help to do the job, you
[…]

It is perfectly your choice to migrate to another OS.

But I wonder where you take the authority from to speak about a lot of 
Linux users. Do you have anything to back up your claim?

For example I am not effected at all as I am using Devuan Ceres, which is 
based on Debian Sid, for desktop machines. And I do not care all that 
much about Chromium anyway as Firefox is my main browser.

Anyway, someone needs to do the additional work. For free. So I really 
ask you to reconsider whether your tone is helpful here. If I would be 
one of the developers in charge, when confronted with such a tone, I 
would probably just think: "Yeah, then just migrate to another OS. I 
don't care." And that not cause I would not care about the security 
issue you pointed out.

-- 
Martin

Re: Chromium on Debian 11

[Martin Steigerwald]

phil995511 - - 17.04.22, 13:18:25 CEST:
> > Replying off-list.

I replied off list for a reason.

*sigh*

-- 
Martin

Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dr. Bas Wijnen - 24.03.22, 10:50:47 CET:
> There is work to be done. Uneasy work. But important to do,
> nonetheless.
> 
> There was work to be done. It has been done. The result is that
> Norbert was sanctioned. Please accept that and stop pretending that
> the debate is still ongoing.

Just one thing: There is no pretending there.

This thread clearly shows it. The Debian community is not unequivocally 
sure, i.e. in agreement, about all of this. That can clearly be proven 
from this very mailing list thread. The notion that a certain process 
has been followed, by certain rules, makes no statement on whether there 
is disagreement or agreement within the Debian community about this. At 
all.

Claiming otherwise is trying to exercise power to silence people by 
creating a division that somehow only some people of the thread are part 
of the Debian community and others, namely those who dissented, are not.

I see this in my inbox as well as people wrote to me what they do not 
like to post publicly. Replies to me are private. So I won't share more 
than that I received several supportive mails privately about this 
topic. But I am concerned of receiving private replies as it clearly 
shows that people are afraid to speak out.


I leave it at that. I made my statement and I stand by it.

Just one more clarification: I made no statement on what Norbert is 
accused to have done. All I was asking for is to really evaluate all 
sides of the story instead of applying double standards.

Also do not educate me about abuse. I know how it feels. Being 
incarnated as a man does not automatically exempt one from abuse. Far 
from it. All this putting into categories is adding to the division.

-- 
Martin

Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o

[Martin Steigerwald]

No CC needed. Thanks.

Pierre-Elliott Bécue - 24.03.22, 00:34:25 CET:
> > I am astonished to see, again, how people here seem to project all
> > badness in the world onto a single former, cause expelled, Debian
> > developer. Especially one with whom I had zero problems with and one
> > who contributed a huge lot of work.
> 
> The amount of work one does/did will never be an excuse for one's
> behaviour.

Just for clarification: I did not claim so.

-- 
Martin

Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o

[Martin Steigerwald]

Ulrike Uhlig - 23.03.22, 17:02:14 CET:
> On a sidenote, I would like to urge the people who did so in this
> thread to stop using the word "toxic" to describe that someone is
> being called out for bullying, abusive behavior, discriminatory, or
> (passive-)agressive remarks. This is victim reversal.

This is disagreement.

You state, as a matter of fact, who is the offender and who is victim 
here.

Yet, beyond doubt, from what I see here, there is unresolved 
disagreement whether what you state as fact is actually factually true.

So what you share is a point of view. *One* side of the story.

Not a fact.

Calling a fact, what is not a fact, may in itself be abusive and may in 
itself make someone else a victim.

I more and more get the impression that all of this is much more about 
power, not about truth.

-- 
Martin

Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o

[Martin Steigerwald]

Adam Borowski - 23.03.22, 16:46:48 CET:
> On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 03:37:27PM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> > You're not the first one with the same reaction, so here's why.
> > 
> > Norbert publicly lies, writting he's not packaging in Debian "thanks
> > to the da-manager", why should we care? Quite the opposite, isn't
> > it normal to publicly debunk it then?
> 
> How would he "lie" by claiming that any new packaging (NEW sources or
> binaries) by him has been hobbled by the da-manager?
> 
> That's a pretty undisputable fact, what can be disputed is whether the
> da-manager has been right doing so.
> 
> And a number of people has been disagreeing with that, some to the
> point of leaving, temporarily or not, because of the way Norbert gets
> treated. Including prolific contributors, such as Karsten Merker or
> Dmitry Bogatov.

I am astonished to see, again, how people here seem to project all 
badness in the world onto a single former, cause expelled, Debian 
developer. Especially one with whom I had zero problems with and one who 
contributed a huge lot of work.

I believe it to be about time for people to look into themselves for 
their contribution to all of this conflict. It is always easier to bash 
someone else, I know, but it does not make Debian a friendlier place to 
begin with. It just increases the fear to be bashed for speaking out 
one's own truth. I really still hope that Debian community can do better 
than that.

In Debian, and very importantly also in the world, we need more unity, 
not more division. But this is only achievable when everyone does their 
homework. One important step here would be to be more careful when using 
a word like "lies".

It is clear to me, beyond doubt, that there is disagreement here that 
has not been resolved. One can paper over this disagreement with 
exercising power. But it does not help the project in the long run.

There is work to be done. Uneasy work. But important to do, nonetheless.

-- 
Martin

Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o

[Martin Steigerwald]

Martin Steigerwald - 23.03.22, 08:54:12 CET:
> Jonathan Carter - 23.03.22, 07:38:02 CET:
> > On 2022/03/22 22:01, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> > > In his latest post, Norbert wrote:
> […]
> 
> > I agree that his posts aren't appropriate for planet (I didn't pay
> > close attention but noticed at least one post recently where he
> > blames politics for not being part of Debian anymore). And I think
> > blaming DAM when they only did their job on planet is quite horrible
> > too.
> 
> I do not agree. Neither with the removal of his blog from Debian
> Planet, nor with the removal of this Debian developer status.
> 
> But I do not see a chance to convince anyone here.
> 
> So I leave it at stating my disagreement. I hope this much is still
> allowed here.

I have basically almost given up on Debian. To the point that I 
considering discontinuing maintenance of my packages and let somebody 
else take over (orphaning and adopting are inappropriate words for that, 
those packages are not children – this IMHO is much more inappropriate 
than using master as a term, although I'd indeed avoid slave).

I consider large parts of Debian to be a toxic environment to me, where 
I always have to fear being attacked for just expressing my point of 
view. And I disagree with double standards. Some may express their point 
of view without being attacked, others may not. Regardless of whether 
their language is respectful or not. At least that has been my 
experience in the last years.

So if anyone likes to take over fio or fsmark, let me know, and I may 
just hand them over.

-- 
Martin

Mail privacy (was: Working for Linux/Debian)

[Martin]

Dears,

On 2021-08-04 20:09, Zayd Ahmed wrote:
> When I originally sent this message I just saw the contact information on the 
> Debian website and didn’t realize that this was a chain email.

I wonder, if we should point out more clearly, that certain email
addresses on our website point to public mailing lists, therefore no
privacy can be provided. The term "mailing list" is well-known among us
and explained in wikipedia etc., but not everybody understands its
implications.

I suggest to put *bold* warning signs on the top page(s), where such
email addresses appear:

> Any email to this or that address will end up on a public mailing
> list, visible to the whole world. Do not post any private information
> to that address.

Cheers

Re: NVC or other Training at DebConf

[Martin Steigerwald]

Cc'd to you as you cc'd me. I do not really need a Cc though.

Sam Hartman - 11.04.21, 12:44:17 CEST:
> >>>>> "Martin" == Martin Steigerwald  writes:
> Martin> I remember that at the recent KDE Academy meetups, I think
> Martin> the last two, there has been some workshop about non-violent
> Martin> communication.
> 
> Martin> Maybe it would be an idea to propose something like that for
> Martin> the next Debconf or maybe even some online meeting before?
> 
> I've found NVC to be incredibly useful.
> I have had no formal training but have read some of their books and
> then started trying to use it for years.
[…]
> Some people in the project have gotten NVC training they weren't very
> happy with.
> I'd love to see good NVC training at DebConf.
> 
> Or training in any other empathy framework or similar.

I found Sedona method to be a gem as well.

> One complaint i've heard is that the training is expensive.
> In our current climate, "um whatever," is my response.
> I think that any training that helps us work together would be worth
> its weight in modern servers.

It was 2018 – maybe it was repeated later, but I do not find that at the 
moment:

Akademy/2018/TrainingNVC: Training in Nonviolent Communication

https://community.kde.org/Akademy/2018/TrainingNVC

I have no idea what KDE e.V. paid for the training.

At least one participant found the training to have been run 
exceptionally:

Akademy 2018

https://kshadeslayer.wordpress.com/2018/09/19/akademy-2018/

There may have been another blog post about it, but that is what I found 
in my news reader at the moment.

I do not know the trainer.

That is how much I know at the moment.

I bet it would be possible to find someone in KDE community who can tell 
more about the training.

Best,
-- 
Martin

Re: Abusive language on Debian lists

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Tomas, dear Debian community,

to...@tuxteam.de - 11.04.21, 11:46:02 CEST:
> So in the end, I think the only real way is to raise awareness, with
> the goal tha /we all/ try to help keeing a friendly tone.
> 
> It's a fine line to walk, between intervening (good) and vigilante
> (perhaps too much), and one important point is to try not to assume
> malice when something comes across as offensive, but still try to
> explain to the original poster why I perceive his/her post as such.

I remember that at the recent KDE Academy meetups, I think the last two, 
there has been some workshop about non-violent communication.

Maybe it would be an idea to propose something like that for the next 
Debconf or maybe even some online meeting before?

If you like I can look up or ask about the details for those workshops. 
I did not attend them.

Best,
-- 
Martin

Re: forums.debian.net - who's in charge?

[Martin Meredith]

I've contacted the admins personally - and posted a thread about this in the 
"staff" section of the forums, so I hope people will get involved.

I've also replied to this thread privately (not wanting to expose anyone's 
contact details who may or may not want them so) so that the current admins can 
be involved, if they wish.
On Mar 30 2021, at 8:29 pm, Steve McIntyre <93...@debian.org> wrote:
> [ Responding to both Mez and Ganneff ]
>
> On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 06:50:00PM +0100, Martin Meredith wrote:
> >Nominally, I was put in charge a while back, as whoever was in charge
> >of it at the time didn’t want to be involved any more, and there was
> >a need for something to be done related to the software/server (I
> >can’t quite remember) - which is where Joerg was involved.
> >
> >There was a LOT of controversy at the time, as I put in place a team
> >of (volunteer, non DD) moderators and admins - some of the community
> >decided that this was a restriction of their free speech, branded me
> >a nazi, and split off to make their own “competitor” forums.
>
> How "nice" of them. :-/
> >I didn’t want to be particularly involved after all of that, and made
> >this clear to the team and those involved. I did ask for assistance
> >in various places at the time, but to no avail.
>
> ACK, that matches my recollection as an outside observer at the
> time. I understand your position, and it's a shame you didn't get more
> help at the time... :-(
>
> >I’ve voiced my opinion on multiple occasions that it should be taken
> >down, or taken over by someone with the will to work on it, but
> >whilst no ones been willing to step up and take it on, the general
> >consensus was that it would be better to exist than to not.
>
> Hmmm, Considering some of the complaints that we've had, I'm more
> convinced of the opposite now.
>
> >Last I left the forums, it was being led by a small team of admins
> >and mods who cad proven themselves as competent and capable, and I
> >had left them to manage this on their own, with a request to reach
> >out to me if they needed assistance.
> >
> >The forums are a “community” forums, not official “Debian” forums, so
> >it’s hard to lead - those who are toxic within the official community
> >get dealt with via DAM or similar, but minuscule actions on the
> >forums have previously led to “outcry” (threats of brigading
> >complaints to DAM/DPL about me, for example).
> >
> >I honestly don’t think that the forum is worth it, and I think it
> >would be safer if there were more DDs involved, rather than just the
> >community.
>
> Right.
> On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 11:20:46PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> >
> >I *do* have admin access on the web part too, but I always said I won't use
> >that for normal day-to-day forums stuff, only when required for machine
> >maintenance works.
> >
> >So yeah, I have access, but I am not really interested in the user facing
> >part of it. If someone (a team, possibly with tight connections to Debian, so
> >contributor/project member?!) is, I am (and I think Martin too) are happy to
> >hand out access on the web.
>
> So I've been hoping that we might actually get some responses from the
> existing community-based admins to this thread. Are any of them of the
> teams@ email alias there?
>
> As it stands, we're getting complaints elsewhere in Debian about toxic
> behaviour and attitudes on the forums. Simply put, bad behaviour there
> is hurting users and giving Debian a bad name. Neither of those are
> acceptable for a service that many of our users believe is part of
> (and run by) Debian.
>
> If anybody has contact details for the existing admins, please ask
> them to respond to me. If we don't get something sensible going *soon*
> I'll have no choice but to ask DSA to remove the DNS for the service.
>
> --
> Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. st...@einval.com
> "I've only once written 'SQL is my bitch' in a comment. But that code
> is in use on a military site..." -- Simon Booth
>

Re: forums.debian.net - who's in charge?

[Martin Meredith]

Hi Felix,

I've also added you to the admin group.
The technical side of things does need a fair bit of work (the forums need an 
upgrade, we need to add Let's Encrypt etc).

On Mar 30 2021, at 10:38 pm, Felix Lechner  wrote:
> Hi Donald,
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 1:38 PM Donald Norwood  wrote:
> >
> > Ideally a few other DDs will join
>
> I would be happy to assist you in a subordinate capacity, if needed.
> My user name is 'lechner'. I tried three captchas, and there was no TLS.
> Kind regards
> Felix Lechner
>

Re: forums.debian.net - who's in charge?

[Martin Meredith]

If you want to register an account, and let me know what it is i can give you 
access - though we have had a few glitches recently with people complaining 
about not being able to read the captcha

> On 30 Mar 2021, at 21:28, Donald Norwood  wrote:
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
>> On 3/30/21 3:14 PM, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> Hey Donald,
>> 
>> I think the key piece I'm looking for is people prepared to admin and
>> monitor the forums as a safe place for Debian users. Documenting what
>> that means shouldn't be too hard - we'd want to see our existing CoC
>> applied.
>> 
> 
> 
> I'll step up to help admin/manage the process if the admin teams are
> unable to at this time. Ideally a few other DDs will join the effort,
> but for now we can try to save it with some moderation or in the least a
> presence.
> 
> Best wishes,
> -Donald
> -- 
> --
> -
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Donald Norwood
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ B7A1 5F45 5B28 7F38 4174
> ⠈⠳⣄ D5E9 E5EC 4AC9 BD62 7B05
> 

Re: forums.debian.net - who's in charge?

[Martin Meredith]

Nominally, I was  put in charge a while back, as whoever was in charge of it at 
the time didn’t want to be involved any more, and there was a need for 
something to be done related to the software/server (I can’t quite remember) - 
which is where Joerg was involved. 

There was a LOT of controversy at the time, as I put in place a team of 
(volunteer, non DD) moderators and admins - some of the community decided that 
this was a restriction of their free speech, branded me a nazi, and split off 
to make their own “competitor” forums. 

I didn’t want to be particularly involved after all of that, and made this 
clear to the team and those involved. I did ask for assistance in various 
places at the time, but to no avail. 

I’ve voiced my opinion on multiple occasions that it should be taken down, or 
taken over by someone with the will to work on it, but whilst no ones been 
willing to step up and take it on, the general consensus was that it would be 
better to exist than to not. 

Last I left the forums, it was being led by a small team of admins and mods who 
cad proven themselves as competent and capable, and I had left them to manage 
this on their own, with a request to reach out to me if they needed assistance.

The forums are a “community” forums, not official “Debian” forums, so it’s hard 
to lead - those who are toxic within the official community get dealt with via 
DAM or similar, but minuscule actions on the forums have previously led to 
“outcry” (threats of brigading complaints to DAM/DPL about me, for example).

I honestly don’t think that the forum is worth it, and I think it would be 
safer if there were more DDs involved, rather than just the community. 

> On 29 Mar 2021, at 16:04, Steve McIntyre <93...@debian.org> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 07:58:33AM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>>> On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 7:34 AM Steve McIntyre <93...@debian.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> It's better to do something about
>>> that up-front (ideally by provoking people to step up) than wait for
>>> bad things to happen.
>> 
>> I agree with that sentiment, but in light of other efforts to limit
>> public discourse—such as shortening the discussion period on a
>> controversial GR—it seems poor timing to shut down a public forum.
> 
> Is that you volunteering to be an admin, then...?
> 
> -- 
> Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
> "I can't ever sleep on planes ... call it irrational if you like, but I'm
> afraid I'll miss my stop" -- Vivek Das Mohapatra
> 

Re: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux

[Martin]

On 2020-06-14 10:59, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
> Hibernation doesn't work with Secure Boot at the moment (there's no
> infrastructure in the Linux kernel to verify that you're not resuming to an
> “unsigned” memory image). Not sure how much people hibernate these days anyway

I *always* hibernate my laptops.
I use poweroff/reboot on kernel or init update only.
Suspend is not useful to me, because battery would be empty most
of the time, when I'm back at the machine.
But my machines (X220, X220i) probably do not support secure
boot anyway, right?

Re: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux

[Martin]

On 2020-06-05 12:12, Mark Pearson wrote:
> You will be able to buy a Linux system
> (albeit not Debian) soon.

That's fine with me! If a notebook computer works with any
Linux, I'm confident, that I/someone can put Debian on it!

Re: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux

[Martin]

On 2020-06-03 13:39, Mark Pearson wrote:
> I'm the linux technical lead at Lenovo for the PC team and I'd *love* to 
> improve the Debian experience on Lenovo platforms.

Very welcome!

Just to add some praise here: I'm using X220 at home and X220 at
work, one with Debian testing, one with Debian stable. Both work
very well. X220 is still the perfect computer for me. If one
ever breaks, I'll try to get a used, second hand X220, again.

Now a critical remark: Last time, when I had to buy a Lenovo
notebook computer for a colleague in DE, it was not possible to
select one without MS Windows. That option was only available
for university students. Why do we have to pay the Gates tax?

Cheers

Re: Testing Discourse for Debian - Moderation concepts

[Martin]

On 2020-04-15 11:21, Neil McGovern wrote:
> Yes. You can subscribe to categories, topics and tags (or combinations
> of them). For example, if you only ever care about m68k, you could watch
> #m68k and get a notification email for that across all categories.

This is pretty nice! Thank you!
(Also for your other answers!)

Re: Testing Discourse for Debian - Moderation concepts

[Martin]

On 2020-04-15 08:56, Neil McGovern wrote:
> Could I point out that the email program you wrote this message in is
> doing the same?

Could you elaborate on that? Ansgar seems to use
"User-Agent: Evolution 3.36.1-1"
(While I'm using mutt.) How do such UAs track reading behaviour?

> Quoting does work in most circumstances. Could you explain what
> additional funtionality is missing?

Speeking for myself, I find the email support in Discourse poor,
to the point, that I would not advertise it. It is useful for
notifications, but by far not en par with the web UI.

After reading more about Discourses many features ("likes"...),
this is completely understandable that one cannot mimic one
medium via the other. Trying so, will lead only to frustration.

Btw. do you know by accident, how I can "lurk" in Discourse via
email? E.g. Let's say, I'm subscribed to debian-project, but
only to know what is going on. Can I subscribe to a "category"?

Cheers

Re: Testing Discourse for Debian

[Martin]

On 2020-04-14 15:49, Neil McGovern wrote:
> If you're using the stable branch of Discourse, then the API is stable
> :)

Ha! ;-) This leads a little bit off-topic here, maybe it's
better off-list, on #956705, or elsewhere:

Can I expect API stability cycles of Discourse long enough, that
it were practical to have a client (library) in stable?

I'm not talking about one site running on nightlies, but
something serious, e.g. the Gnome instance.

> The documentation is at
> docs.discourse.org.

Nothing shown by default, but when I unblock CDNs, there is a
long "Loading...", then "A script on this page may be busy, or
it may have stopped responding", but finally a download link:

https://docs.discourse.org/swagger.json

In which I read:

> Note: This documentation is not complete, so for missing parts
> you may have to\n[reverse engineer the Discourse API](https://
> meta.discourse.org/t/how-to-reverse-engineer-the-discourse-api
> /20576) to figure out how to use an API endpoint.

My fear is, that an un(der)documented API might also not be
long-term stable, even if such a disclaimer is not present.

Re: Testing Discourse for Debian

[Martin]

On 2020-04-14 13:49, Neil McGovern wrote:
> I suspect the API should be stable enough for this, if people wanted to
> store discussions in a form that isn't discourse itself.

Is the API stable in general, or only this particular function?
I ask in the context of #956705: "ITP: python-pydiscourse --
Python library for working with Discourse". Upstream says:

> * Provide functional parity with the Discourse API, for the
>   currently supported version of Discourse (something of a
>   moving target)
>
> The order here is important. The Discourse API is itself
> poorly documented

Maybe the README is just outdated.

Re: Discourse usability

[Martin]

On 2020-04-13 22:23, Martin wrote:
> My personal and preliminary résumé is: "Something like Discourse would
> be great, but maybe better something else, esp. w/o gamification?"

I have been hinted, that this résumé sounds more negative than 
I actually meant it. Elsewhere on -project, I expressed an idea,
that might be more constructive:

On 2020-04-14 15:14, Martin wrote:
> Maybe somebody™ can write a Discourse client? "Discurses"?
> Something that downloads messages, supports offline reading,
> answering, editing, "likes" and votes, and uploading results.

Good: This might be interesting to other discourse users, too.

Bad: Ideas are inexpensive, but I have neither the time nor the
skills to implement such a client.

Cheers

Re: Testing Discourse for Debian - Moderation concepts

[Martin]

On 2020-04-14 14:30, Ansgar wrote:
> That said I'm in principle fine with trying a mostly
> web-only system; just like GitLab also really needs to be used over the
> web.

I'm a salsa.d.o user of course, but how often would I login into
the web interface? Once a month? 99 % of the interaction is git
push and fetch. I'm happy, that we moved from svn to git, partly
because I can do more things offline.

While I'm in favour to explore alternatives to email, I don't
feel comfortable with anything, that does not support offline
usage and that does not work well on the text console.

Maybe somebody™ can write a Discourse client? "Discurses"?
Something that downloads messages, supports offline reading,
answering, editing, "likes" and votes, and uploading results.

Discourse usability

[Martin]

Hi Neil, hi project,

thanks for putting effort in communication improvements, either on
the social or on the technical level.

I'm a Discourse user on various instances, but I'm not an admin on
any of them. This is my end-user experience:

Good:

- Discussions are usually well structured. It is easy to find start
  and end points.

- Moderation or other means of filtering seem to work. At least,
  signal to noise ratio was always great.

- Search function returns useful results most of the time.

- "Like this post" is a nice, low-barrier form of acknowledgment.

Bad:

- Offline usage and local archive is hard, i.e. re-reading when
  disconnected, hold back a text, e.g. to think it over, is difficult.

- I like to use the console. Discourse does not work with any console
  browser I tried, nor with eww. Reading is possible, login is not.

- Entering any longer text in a web browser is a nuisance. Like many,
  I manually copy and paste between text editor and browser.

- The web interface is too ponderous, too cluttered, too distracting
  for my taste or maybe for my age cohort.

Ugly:

- Badges. "Earned 'First Emoji'", "Earned 'Anniversary'". Is it only
  me? But I feel devalued and belittled by gamification.

Note, that the "bad" points cannot, unfortunately, be mitigated by
using the email interface instead of the web interface, because:

- It does not represent the same content, i.e. some advantages are
  gone, and this leads to an information imbalance between users.

- Discourse email is badly formatted and disrespects any rules one
  expects in a "real" email conversation, such as quoting.

My personal and preliminary résumé is: "Something like Discourse would
be great, but maybe better something else, esp. w/o gamification?"

Sorry, this got longer than I wanted to.

Re: Package request

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Justin.

Justin - 26.03.20, 01:15:10 CET:
> Hello guys, I am inquiring if you make a package which would like
> onenote for microsoft. Do you have a interactive package that would
> be used just like onenote or similar? Also do you make a package like
> a virtual machine or similar where you can instal windows in and run
> windows through debian platform?

For user support please contact the mailing list debian-user or a debian 
user mailing list of the language of your choice¹.

Although it is barely maintained these days I still use Basket for 
taking notes. According to what I heard it is quite similar to Onenote. 
The current package in Debian works well enough for me although there 
are some bugs or minor annoyances in the packaged Basket version which I 
believe is still quite recent. For example it does not automatically 
scroll down when creating a note at the bottom end of the window. The 
last package update is from August 2019.

Of course there are a lot more note taking applications available in 
Debian, but I am not aware of any app that is similar to Onenote. There 
may be some, but I am not aware of them.

[1] https://lists.debian.org/users.html

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Asking for Calm

[Martin Steigerwald]

Sam Hartman - 01.01.20, 15:59:31 CET:
> >>>>> "Martin" == Martin Steigerwald  writes:
> Martin> Dear Sam.
> 
> Martin> Sam Hartman - 31.12.19, 15:37:09 CET:
> >> folks, emotions are very high at the moment.  It would really
> >> help if
> >> you could let the discussion die down.  If there are issues
> >> that you
> >> need to address, please reach out to da-manager, the
> >> listmaster, DPL,
> >> the community team, or anyone else who you think will hear you
> >> and
> >> give you the help you're looking for.
> 
> Martin> […]
> 
> >> We want to hear people even when they are very upset. 
> >> Similarly, we
> >> don't want people to be provoked into being so upset that they
> >> cannot
> >> be heard.
> 
> Martin> How does that go together, Sam?
>
> I think there is a time and a place for everything.
> Sometimes, when people are really upset, it is hard for them to
> constructively hear something.
> Sometimes when they are upset it is hard to connect with empathy and
> in your terms mutuality.
> And so taking some space in time can gain the distance we're going to
> need to hear each other later.

Okay, I can go with that. 

> And yet, even at those times, some issues need to be dealt with
> urgently.
> 
> If you feel there is something not right going on and you need help
> with it, I'm trying to give some options that allow you to reach out
> without escalating emotions here on the list.

My point is here is that the GR started in the public, has been 
discussed in the public, has been a public election, yet I felt you 
suggested that what happened after the voting conduction should be moved 
to private space. This did not feel right to me.

>     Martin> How is going to say "I feel hurt about the outcome of the
> GR" – Martin> personally I am not even sure whether I do – or "I
> think the GR did not Martin> serve the highest good of Debian" or
> something like that which is Martin> *respectful* and within the
> bounds of Code of Conduct, suddenly not Martin> acceptable anymore?
> 
> 
> I'd like to be heard differently.
> My focus was not intended to be on the GR so much as the thread about
> diversity and the CoC and things that happened on that thread.

Ah, I see. I did not get that. Your post did not state what it relates 
to.

I read quite some of that discussion, however I felt scared to write 
even a single mail on those topics. I felt that it would be way too easy 
to be writing something that would hurt someone or would be 
misunderstood – even tough it may just be due to a lack of 
understanding. Especially as I had only rare contacts with transgender 
people, or people with a sexual identity as just male or female. On the 
other hand I feel I am not "just" male as well, so… and I read more than 
once and felt more than once that sexual identity can be fluid. I 
certainly agree with using the pronoun someone likes to be addressed 
with.

Related to diversity and CoC discussions I have no opinion about your 
suggestion. I dropped reading them as I found it hard to endure, cause 
from what I saw they contained a lot of accusations. I consider myself 
to be incarnated into a highly sensitive person, so I think I better am 
careful. You may very well have had a point to make here. I agree that 
on heated discussions especially when language being used becomes 
violent, stepping back and welcoming the emotions on my own can be very 
helpful before I engage again.

> However, as I understand it, the GR is important to you, and now that
> we have the misunderstanding of focus out of the way, I'd be happy to
> chat about the GR.
> 
> For the GR, I think now is a time of emotions.

We agree there then.

> I would request that you not focus on discussing whether the GR was a
> good idea or will benefit Debian at this time.  I think that people
> have strong feelings, and those feelings will get in the way of any
> analysis of those issues.

I am okay with leaving the discussion whether the GR was a good idea or 
will benefit as it. I shared my doubts but I will be very happily be 
proven otherwise. I am just very sad, that a very notable contributor to 
sysvinit already decided to leave Debian as a result of the GR. I sought 
to express that.

> I request that you consider whether the community would benefit from
> connection and understanding of these feelings more than cost-benefit
> discussions at this time.
> 
> I think those discussions will be more successful later.
> 
> If I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying that you are upset when
> you think about some of those discuss

Re: Asking for Calm

[Martin Steigerwald]

Aron Xu - 01.01.20, 12:22:49 CET:
> On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 7:09 PM Martin Steigerwald 
 wrote:
> > Dear Sam.
> > 
> > Sam Hartman - 31.12.19, 15:37:09 CET:
> > > folks, emotions are very high at the moment.  It would really help
> > > if
> > > you could let the discussion die down.  If there are issues that
> > > you
> > > need to address, please reach out to da-manager, the listmaster,
> > > DPL,
> > > the community team, or anyone else who you think will hear you and
> > > give you the help you're looking for.
> > 
> > […]
> > 
> > > We want to hear people even when they are very upset.  Similarly,
> > > we
> > > don't want people to be provoked into being so upset that they
> > > cannot
> > > be heard.
> > 
> > How does that go together, Sam?
> > 
> > > I'm hoping that we can all cooperate to take a step back, and get
> > > the
> > > space we'll need to approach these issues in a sustainable manner
> > > and
> > > build the community we want to live in.
> > > 
> > > Again, if you're hurting now and something needs attention, reach
> > > out, but preferably not on the list.
> > 
> > Why not?
> > 
> > How is going to say "I feel hurt about the outcome of the GR" –
> > personally I am not even sure whether I do – or "I think the GR did
> > not serve the highest good of Debian" or something like that which
> > is *respectful* and within the bounds of Code of Conduct, suddenly
> > not acceptable anymore?
> 
> I don't hold an opinion on which direction to go at least for now, but
> I see a lot of mentions to Code of Conduct. Personally it doesn't
> look like a good phenomenon that CoC is being mentioned all the way
> down the path because it defines the bottom line of behavior which
> could be referred when dealing with extreme cases.

I mentioned it as one of the officially available guide lines. The mailing 
list netiquette is another.

> Our community is always driven by consensus reached with polite
> communications, even if some appeared to be hot debates. Having a CoC
> is a good progress on the establishment of community procedures and
> documents, but to the best of my knowledge it is not intented to be a
> single point of failure that it makes up an impression of anyone is
> encouraged to do anything that is "not prohibited by CoC".

I included "respectful" as a word for a reason. I also mentioned 
"harmlessness" and "mutuality" in other posts. So what I like to see and 
hold up my own behavior with goes beyond the CoC. On the other hand I do 
not intend to write down a huge and long list of – in my point of view – 
acceptable or not acceptable behavior into every mail I write.

In no way I meant that anything goes as long it somehow abides to the 
CoC. So please do not put anything like that into my mouth.

Thank you.

Best,
-- 
Martin

Re: Asking for Calm

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Sam.

Sam Hartman - 31.12.19, 15:37:09 CET:
> folks, emotions are very high at the moment.  It would really help if
> you could let the discussion die down.  If there are issues that you
> need to address, please reach out to da-manager, the listmaster, DPL,
> the community team, or anyone else who you think will hear you and
> give you the help you're looking for.
[…]
> We want to hear people even when they are very upset.  Similarly, we
> don't want people to be provoked into being so upset that they cannot
> be heard.

How does that go together, Sam?

> I'm hoping that we can all cooperate to take a step back, and get the
> space we'll need to approach these issues in a sustainable manner and
> build the community we want to live in.
> 
> Again, if you're hurting now and something needs attention, reach out,
> but preferably not on the list.

Why not?

How is going to say "I feel hurt about the outcome of the GR" – 
personally I am not even sure whether I do – or "I think the GR did not 
serve the highest good of Debian" or something like that which is 
*respectful* and within the bounds of Code of Conduct, suddenly not 
acceptable anymore?

One of the biggest challenges of Debian community as I see it is 
learning to *respectfully* agree to disagree, instead of trying to 
"silence" the other side. As I see it we have a ton to learn there, a 
huge ton to learn there.

What I personally would do now is to welcome any voices and let them be 
there as long as they are within a boundaries of Code of Conduct or 
otherwise put are respectful and harmless. Cause this would give the 
chance to allow those voices to be heard. It is a sign of respect to 
those who lost by the outcome of the Init Systems GR. And it is also a 
very simple thing about emotions: Try to suppress an emotion and you can 
be sure that it comes up again, later. I highly recommend trying to 
welcome it instead. From my direct personal experience it can often 
easily disappear then. The biggest lie about emotions for me is that 
suppressing them or pushing them away will somehow do anything good.

Another thing would be to start with seminars about non-violent 
communication, similar as those taught during KDE Academy gatherings of 
the KDE community.

For me here the "How" of the communication is much, much, much more 
important than the "What".

Best,
-- 
Martin

Re: Be nice to your fellow Debian colleagues

[Martin Steigerwald]

avoring options would have won. And that is the whole issue of 
the GR. It has "win-loose" options and some lost now. Some options in it 
were not about diversity, but about exclusion. Again: Some options in it 
were not about diversity, but about exclusion.

Anyway, I am no Debian developer and thus the only voice I could raise 
is here… and by freely choosing what I contribute to and use. My 
motivation to ever become a Debian developer is zero by now – not only 
due to this GR. And in the long run Debian may also loose me as a user. 
A difficult decision as I have bonds with the Qt/KDE team in Debian and 
would like to continue to work with them, even if just on the occasional 
base I do at the moment.

Let's see about the practical outcome of the GR. Right now I think it 
did not serve the highest good of the Debian community. It did not 
resolve conflict and it may probably not even succeed in silencing it. In 
fact I believe as long as all those who prefer to use something else 
than Systemd, and thus also the Hurd and kFreeBSD people, do not have a 
new home there will still be friction. The outcome of the GR did not 
magically make that friction disappear. It is still there. So I am not 
sure anymore whether this whole GR even had a point.

If this is a victory for some or who knows even a majority in my point 
of view it has been a very expensive one.

Anyway, it is what it is, and I welcome that as well as best as I can. 
Knowing that I can freely decide what my personal consequences may be.

Be nice to your fellow Debian colleagues so or so is a good idea. It is 
*always* a good idea. Mutuality and harmlessness go a long, long way.


All the best to Debian. I do see *quite* some challenges ahead. Most of 
them, if not all of them *community* related. Parts of the Debian 
community are hurting and are hurting since quite some time. Again not 
just due to the topic in this GR, but also for other reasons.

All the best for resolving at least some of those community related 
issues in 2020.

Have a Happy New Year!

Best,
-- 
Martin

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Re: Expense Rules for Mini-DebConfs

[Martin Michlmayr]

Since we're on the topic of travel expenses.

* Didier 'OdyX' Raboud  [2019-10-03 13:42]:
> I realize I had not read https://wiki.debian.org/Sprints/HowTo recently; my
> bad. It has:
> > Debian, within the limit of available resources, tries hard to cover travel
> > and accommodation costs for those who have no other means to cover the
> > costs. Participating in developer sprints should be no personal financial
> > burden to any of the participants. Usually, participants are expected to
> > cover food costs by themselves, although exceptions might be considered.
^

The food rule has been applied very inconsistently in recent years.
Back in the Zack days, Debian didn't cover food at all (I think
stemming from Zack's academic background where you're lucky to get
anything at all), but in recent years this has been different (but
inconsistent).

I don't get the rule for not paying for food:

1) You have to eat when travelling and it will be more expensive than
when you can cook at home (and especially if you travel to a higher
cost location).

2) Food (and some would say beer) is a social thing and isn't one goal
of the sprints to promote social interaction and cohesiveness?

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
https://www.cyrius.com/

Re: BSP Reimbursements

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Sam Hartman  [2019-10-02 10:43]:
> If that ends up being the case I'm happy with some sort of automatic
> approval process for DDs attending BSPs (and easy approval for other
> contributors when that makes sense).

I might be wrong here but my understanding of the $100 for attending
BSPs that existed in the past is that it was automatic.

All this talk about who should handle approvals (DPL or organizers)
and putting together a budget seems way overkill to me.  We're talking
about $100 per person.  The whole idea was to make this a painless
process.  i.e. just send a request to a TO and they will process it.
No involvement of the DPL or organizer needed.

I recently read something about corporate life where someone said you
need X approvals to spend $1000 but nobody asks if you invite 15
people to a one hour meeting which will easily cost $1000.  It sounds
like we're making the same mistake here.  For $100, do we really need
a long approval process?

My only concern with the automatic $100 is the workload it may cause
for TOs, but this might not be a huge problem since a) many people
won't bother submitting a claim since it's not worth their time
(automatically selecting those who really need/want it) and b) so far
there haven't been that many requests. (Although you can argue the
latter is because it wasn't documented/publicised properly.)

Of course, it's different if we're talking about bigger amounts, but
for that we have a sprint/mini-debconf process anyway.

Let's just have an automatic $100 and keep the bureaucracy to a
minimum.

(Not speaking for the treasurer team, for SPI or anyone else.)

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
https://www.cyrius.com/

Re: farewell

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Marc.

I can certainly relate to your frustration. Also with Plasma certain 
things are broken, like some applications that use Qt WebEngine, IMHO 
partly due to only a few people dedicating their time to do all the 
packaging for Qt/KDE, which is a lot, a huge lot of work.

Marc Munro - 23.07.19, 03:22:
> I didn't want to hate systemd but stuff that had worked forever, like
> restarting gdm from the command line, hasn't worked for me since
> systemd appeared.  And what used to be a simple matter of creating a
> service by creating a script and putting in a symlink into a runlevel
> directory, is now apparently beyond my level of skill to make work.

Just for this I like to tell you that I run Debian with Plasma without 
systemd for months already. Due to the awesome work of the init 
diversity team this is almost trivial.

It just works although I did some manual steps to start pulseaudio and 
for work from services needed for Evolution¹. But I bet you'd call that:

Yeah! Unix!


[1] Using https://git.devuan.org/WIP-init/user-services

This is work in progress and I already like to redesign it for it to be 
a frontend for runit and others… *both* user wide and system wide. But 
it works and I am lazy too and have other important activities.


And yes, I am still running Debian on my laptop, not Devuan. Partly 
because I maintain a Debian package and partly to be able to provide bug 
reports to Debian.

I run Devuan with eudev on my server VMs. Even without dbus as its not 
required, not even for the Qt based service quasselcore.

I am deep gratitude, fully knowing that with Debian there would be no 
Devuan. Looking at the alternatives, it could either be some BSD, like 
DragonFlyBSD… or… well I am not sure whether there are many Linux 
distros out there which meet the high standard Debian adheres to.

Or someone would look at all the operating systems out there, take the 
best of each one and drop anything else… I miss the simplicity back in 
AmigaOS times where I knew the purpose of every single file of the 
operating system.

Computers for me are still there to serve humanity, instead of having 
their own policies – even if it is just the policies some developers put 
into it. I can certainly relate to: "It has to do what I tell it to" 
instead of "It knows better than me". It has no business to know better 
than me, ever. Period. The library for the graphical environment of 
AmigaOS was called intuition.library for a reason.


So if anything: It is easier to let go in gratitude!

And if there is hate… I strongly recommend to welcome it. Let it be 
there. And let it dissolve all by itself.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course

[Martin Steigerwald]

Alexander Wirt - 06.07.19, 20:00:
> On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> > On 15451 March 1977, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> > > > The tone is absolutely civilized.
> > > > And yet, the cost to people who have to do this education again
> > > > and
> > > > again is really high.
> > > 
> > > Thats possible, but imho not a reason to kill the thread.
> > 
> > It is a very good reason to do so, and its sad that our listmasters
> > aren't more active in shutting down threads that repeat and repeat
> > and repeat all the same things ever again, every other month.
> > It would save so much energy that could be used so much more useful.
> > 
> > Same as getting rid of the "all lists are open" thing, something
> > that
> > was nice in the past, but has definitely lost its value long ago.
> 
> I can not do more than disagree. If you don't like a thread, killfile
> it. But using censorship, banning, blocking threads you/someone don't
> like, just for the reason *you* don't find them useful is in my eyes
> just wrong and is some kind of censorship and should not be done in
> an open project like debian.
> 
> But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset is
> outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a
> listmaster.

I certainly concur with your mindset here.

-- 
Martin

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Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Jonathan Carter - 02.07.19, 10:54:
> On 2019/07/02 10:35, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of
> > their
> > skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints,
> > their appearance?
> > 
> > How about "all is welcome here"?
> 
> That's basically our default state, so you could basically say we do
> that every month.
> 
> The reason that certain groups of people (women, lgbt people,
> disadvantaged people (based on race, location, etc) and so on) gets
> some special attention is that they have been historically
> marginalized and in many countries that's still even the case. The
> idea behind diversity isn't diversity for diversity's sake as some
> would like to allude to, but it's about inclusivity and about human
> rights. And sure, when it comes to human rights it's going to get a

Again here as well: I have no opinion about pridemonth nor any objection 
with it.

What I argued about is my perception that people who raised concerns and 
felt unwelcome or marginalized were not met by acknowledgment. And it is 
not even about me, cause I did not feel that way.

My main point just was: Their opinions and feelings are valid, too.

Being inclusive means at least acknowledging that.

I never made a statement on whether to promote, support, endorse 
pridemonth or not. Please do not read more into what I wrote than what 
is actually there.

> As for a literal "all is welcome here", that gets more complicated
> because people who go against our ethos aren't welcome here. If
> someone is a bigot and wants to spew out hatred and propaganda on our
> platforms, I'll be one of the first to make a call that they be
> kicked out. This doesn't at all meant that people can't have their
> own opinion or should be afraid to voice it. But there are those of
> us that want to make this world a better place for future generations
> so that they can both live and thrive in it, but then there are those
> regressionists who will insist on every bad choice possible to set us
> back as a species. I have no problem to call these people out, and if
> they want to be a crybaby and a snowflake about it and go "boo I
> don't like politics" every time that they are proven to be wrong
> about their views and still insist to double down on those, then I'm
> certainly not going to waste any sympathy on them.

Did you actually read:

Martin Steigerwald - 02.07.19, 10:35:
> Of course that does not mean to tolerate abusive behavior. It is of
> course important to set healthy boundaries by having a netiquette
> and/or a code of conduct that makes sense and actually enforce it.
> 
> Love it not license. I can still love someone and set boundaries. I
> can still love someone and leave or ask them to leave.

Cause if you did, I do not get why you are actually even writing this.

I acknowledged that there are situation where it is important to set 
clear boundaries.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Colin Watson - 02.07.19, 12:25:
> On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:07:39AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > Actually I felt something like similar like this myself before (not
> > related to the pridemonth thing). There still a lot of oppression of
> > women and a lack of progress on equal pay for equal work and so on…
> > I
> > acknowledge that. On the other hand with everything around feminism…
> > I sometimes wondered "So as a male I cannot have any feelings of
> > being excluded or unwelcome cause I am a member of a dominant
> > group"? What if, just what if I do not buy into that crap, but I am
> > still made a member of a group I do not identify with? This is
> > violence as well. And beware if I would even be a white male. Then
> > I better shut up, cause… I am a member of that dominant, violent,
> > aggressive group. But what if, just what if not every white,
> > heterosexual male is violent or aggressive? I even asked myself
> > whether I would even be a man if I cannot see me as a member of
> > that group.
> 
> [Yet another straight cis white man writing here.]
> 
> It's of course true that Not All Men (etc.) are individually
> oppressive, dominant, violent, rich, and so on.  A lot of people get
> hung up on that, and I can understand why.  But this isn't really the
> point that feminists and other people working for greater equality in
> society are generally making.  The point of identifying privileged
> groups is to point out that, on average, members of those groups have
> an easier time than people who aren't in those groups.  And it's
> really important to notice that this is not solely about how you see
> yourself, but about how others react to you for things you can't
> reasonably control.

I get that.

But on the other hand I am not average if that is possible at all and I 
never have been.

[…]
> If you feel that Debian should hold itself aloof from this and strive
> to be apolitical and solely about technology, then I understand your

No. I did not make a statement about this at all.

> position and used to sympathise with it myself, and I'm sure we can
> work together in other ways, but we aren't likely to agree on this
> one.  I'd ask that other straight white men in Debian who feel
> aggrieved by the promotion of other identities and appearances take a
> step back and try to think about why you're aggrieved.  Are you
> really being systematically underprivileged in the sorts of ways that 
> other groups often are? […]

Rather than assuming on what I could mean, I kindly ask you to relate to 
what I actually have written.

Whether Debian supports pridemonth or any other group or event… I 
believe it is important to acknowledge that people may feel less welcome 
if its not made equally clear that all contributors are welcome here.

There have been people feeling marginalized or unwelcome due to this and 
I believe its important to at least acknowledge that. Its not invalid 
cause its coming from people whom you could call privileged.

Mind you, I did not. I do not have an opinion about pridemonth as I do 
not know much about it.

I'd rather really stop putting people into boxes, cause my experience 
is: People do not fit in any boxes.

-- 
Martin

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Marc Haber - 02.07.19, 11:06:
> On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 10:35:21AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of
> > their
> > skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints,
> > their appearance?
> 
> Does having a "month of welcome" for $GROUP not imply that we're not
> welcoming $GROUP all the other time? I'd hate to not welcome blue
> haired people outside their "welcome blue hair" month.

That is why I asked "How about even extending that month of welcoming 
*all* contributors to… quite a long time?"

> Why dont we just welcome people based on the technology they care for?

As as a one question summary for what I wrote: Well how about stopping 
to put people into boxes and see what happens then?

What would happen if I just stop to put people into boxes just for now?

Maybe I'd start to see what is really here now.

I am going to do this now.

-- 
Martin

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Martin Steigerwald - 02.07.19, 10:35:
> Russ Allbery - 02.07.19, 00:26:
> > Adrian Bunk  writes:
> > > It is also a meaningful gesture if some people are excluded from
> > > being welcomed.
> > > 
> > > Would Debian honor a month of white heterosexual men?
> > 
> > Do you think people with those attributes have been made
> > systematically unwelcome in Debian, free software, or the larger
> > world of computing?
> 
> How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of their
> skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints,
> their appearance?
> 
> How about "all is welcome here"?
> 
> Of course that does not mean to tolerate abusive behavior. It is of
> course important to set healthy boundaries by having a netiquette
> and/or a code of conduct that makes sense and actually enforce it.
> 
> Love it not license. I can still love someone and set boundaries. I
> can still love someone and leave or ask them to leave.
> 
> How about even extending that month of welcoming *all* contributors
> to… quite a long time?
> 
> How about looking at what is needed to make *all* contributors be
> welcome here?

As this could be read as "Debian does not welcome everyone"… I'd like to 
add a bit about the motivation of my post:

Actually it was motivated by my impression that some contributors indeed 
felt marginalized, not welcomed by highlighting / supporting / promoting 
pridemonth in this way. And I had the impression of attempts to discuss 
this away.

For me it is important to first accept that. Welcome it. And then go from 
there. Even if you do not agree with it. Agree to disagree.

That still means that pridemonth can be highlighted… but it is important 
to at least acknowledge how some feel about it.

Actually I felt something like similar like this myself before (not 
related to the pridemonth thing). There still a lot of oppression of 
women and a lack of progress on equal pay for equal work and so on… I 
acknowledge that. On the other hand with everything around feminism… I 
sometimes wondered "So as a male I cannot have any feelings of being 
excluded or unwelcome cause I am a member of a dominant group"? What if, 
just what if I do not buy into that crap, but I am still made a member 
of a group I do not identify with? This is violence as well. And beware 
if I would even be a white male. Then I better shut up, cause… I am a 
member of that dominant, violent, aggressive group. But what if, just 
what if not every white, heterosexual male is violent or aggressive? I 
even asked myself whether I would even be a man if I cannot see me as a 
member of that group.

How about seeing what is beyond this? What do I see when I move beyond 
those labels? What if am neither this body nor this mind? And what if 
none of those labels actually refer to who I really am?

And how about power with one another instead of power over one another? 
For me this is a key ingredient for being inclusive.


Feelings are just feelings. When they are there, denying them does not 
make them go away. On the other hand they are not the truth.

One of the best things to do with them is to welcome them and see what 
happens then.

I am not wrong for having felt what I described above. And so no one 
else is wrong about having felt or feeling in any particular way.

Best.
-- 
Martin

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Russ Allbery - 02.07.19, 00:26:
> Adrian Bunk  writes:
> > It is also a meaningful gesture if some people are excluded from
> > being welcomed.
> > 
> > Would Debian honor a month of white heterosexual men?
> 
> Do you think people with those attributes have been made
> systematically unwelcome in Debian, free software, or the larger
> world of computing?

How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of their 
skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints, their 
appearance?

How about "all is welcome here"?

Of course that does not mean to tolerate abusive behavior. It is of 
course important to set healthy boundaries by having a netiquette and/or 
a code of conduct that makes sense and actually enforce it.

Love it not license. I can still love someone and set boundaries. I can 
still love someone and leave or ask them to leave.

How about even extending that month of welcoming *all* contributors to… 
quite a long time?

How about looking at what is needed to make *all* contributors be 
welcome here?

Best,
-- 
Martin

I’ve got a great article idea for your site

[Tina Martin]

Hi,

Are you open to adding a new guest article to your site? If so, I’ve got a
great idea I’d love to put into action for you!

Here’s my pitch -- I’d like to write an article that discusses how to put
together and manage a remote team of workers that will make a business a
success. This article would be around 650 words, completely free of charge,
backed up with research, and written especially for you.

What do you say?

Thank you!

Tina

Tina Martin

Life Coach and Creator of Ideaspired.com

tina.mar...@ideaspired.com

Re: Accessibility of Ledger Reports

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Sam Hartman  [2019-06-10 10:44]:
> The issue I'm most running into is that the reports use internal
> indentation within a line.  That is, to draw an account tree ledger
> indents the column containing the account name depending on its
> level in the tree.
...
> i'm also told that there is a --flat option that displays the entire
> account tree.  I suspect that's really annoying for others.

I think --flat is probably the best option.  The downside of --flat is
that it doesn't add up the sub-totals, as a regular balance report
does (although some people find that misleading).

beancount has a 'treeify' command which uses arrows for the tree.
I'm not sure if that's more readable for you?  (Running treeify on
ledger output doesn't work, though.)

The output of treeify looks like this:

|-- Expenses
|   |-- Banking
|   |   |-- AccountFee -0.10 USD
|   |   |-- CPFee  957.21 USD
|   |   |-- ForeignTransactionFee
|   |   |-- PayPalFee  2266.61 USD
|   |   |-- PaysimpleFee   239.75 USD
|   |   `-- TransactionFee 38.23 USD
|   |-- Development    345.48 USD

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
https://www.cyrius.com/

Re: Accessibility of Ledger Reports

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Sam Hartman  [2019-06-10 14:06]:
> Is there any way to have the account name as the first column?
> That would probably also work well.

That's not a built in feature.  You can change the format via
--balance-format but the format string is quite long.

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
https://www.cyrius.com/

Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org

[W. Martin Borgert]

Quoting Jonas Smedegaard :

Great if others would help: I suggest using debian-...@lists.debian.org
(Cc'ed) to coordinate such team maintenance, but agree with Sam that we
better continue this thread on debian-project@lists.debian.org only -
email headers set accordingly.


I'm one of the rather inactive people in respect to the Debian XMPP
server. My lack of activity is caused by the fact that I don't know
anything about the administration tools used by DSA. I'm only
starting to use Ansible in my company.

But I can definitively burn some time on the service and I have contact
to Prosody upstream and other people in the Jabber community to ask
for expert knowledge.

Urgent tasks: Activate mod_firewall to get rid most of the spam and
activate HTTP upload (probably needs per service user quota do prevent
accidental DoS).

Re: Debian, Totalitarianism, Thought Reform, what next?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Robin Wheeler - 26.03.19, 07:58:
> The humble & humiliating apology made by Comrade Preining last week
> smells like the confessions that political prisoners
> make after undergoing thought reform and coercive persuasion
> programs.  The State 100% right and Comrade Prisoner 100% wrong.
> Of course.

Seriously, *please* give it a rest.

Please give it some time to heal.

Just for now.

Comparing this situation with political prisoners is so far off anything 
that is even remotely accurate that there is really nothing to discuss 
here.

Apologizing and forgiveness are some of the greatest tools to heal what 
was wounded.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Debain 10 release ?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Hi Remy.

remy wehrung - 15.03.19, 12:32:
> Hello, I use Débian 9.x professionally, but it is necessary to use
> libraries, EDI and CUDA more recent, I develloppe an ecologic system
> and I must be at once up to date and to have a reliable informatic.
> Débian 10 m 'is mandatory especially with these non-free software.
> can you announce a release date? thank you and have a good weekend

That is not how Debian works¹. Debian is in full freeze, however it will 
only be released with RC = release critical bugs = 0. So Debian is 
released when it is ready.

You could however already use it and help stabilizing it by triaging 
and/or fixing bugs. I bet it won't take too long. And there likely won't 
be any major changes since then anymore.

[1] https://release.debian.org/

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Debian Geldspenden an ffis e.V.

[Martin Steigerwald]

Hallo Klauspeter Hauf,

Hector Oron - 14.03.19, 14:59:
> Hello Mr. Klauspeter Hauf,
> 
> Missatge de l'adreça  del dia dj., 14 de març
> 
> 2019 a les 14:44:
> > Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,
> > 
> > leider muss ich Ihnen mitteilen, dass die auf der Seite des ffis
> > e.V. veröffentlichte Freistellungsbescheid (Vereinfachte
> > Spendenbescheinugung) seit Mitte 2017 abgelaufen und damit nicht
> > mehr gültig ist.
> > 
> > Alle meine seit letztem Jahr unternommenen Versuche mit Vertretern
> > des "ffis" dazu Kontakt aufzunehmen waren aber leider erfolglos.
> > Auf meine Mails wurde einfach nicht reagiert..
> > 
> > Da das Debian Projekt immer noch den "ffis" als Spendenempfänger
> > nennt, gehe ich davon aus, dass Sie noch im Kontakt zum Verein
> > stehen. Vielleicht können Sie ja über ihre Kanäle die ffis auf die
> > erforderliche Aktualisierung des Freistellungsbescheids drängen.
> > 
> > Allerdings scheint auch die ffis WebSite ebenfalls nicht mehr
> > gepflegt zu werden - sollte der Verein sich in Auflösung befinden
> > oder nicht mehr existieren, dann sollte das Debian Projekt sich
> > einen anderen (gemeinnützigen) Partner in Deutschland suchen um
> > auch künftig Spenden zu erhalten, die der Spender steuerlich
> > geltend machen kann. Für mich als regelmäßigen Unterstützer Ihres
> > Projektes wäre das ein wichtiges Argument ihre Arbeit auch künftig
> > zu fördern.
> > 
> > Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> > Klauspeter Hauf

Translating:

Ich übersetze:
 
> Since I cannot write German I hope you are able to understand english
> or maybe someone/something can translate it for you.

Da ich nicht in deutsch schreiben kann, hoffe ich, dass du englisch lesen 
kannst oder jemand/etwas etwas für dich übersetzen kann.

> We, Debian Treasurer team, are in the case and DPL has been notified,
> until the issue is solved, please consider Debian France for your
> donations in the EU zone.

Wir, das Debian-Schatzmeister-Team, wissen davon und der Debian-Projekt-
Leiter wurde informiert. Bis diese Geschichte gelöst ist, empfehlen wir 
Debian France (Frankreich) für Spenden in der EU-Zone.

> https://www.debian.org/donations.en.html#debianfrance

Beste Grüße,
-- 
Martin

Re: enforcement first, ask questions later?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Gavin.

Gavin Howard - 04.02.19, 17:28:
> I am not a contributor, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
> 
> I was planning on becoming a contributor to Debian recently and joined
> the mailing list in preparation for doing so. And then I saw
> everything that was happening.
> 
> It made me nervous that people could be accused and removed without
> any public process, opportunity to collect evidence, opportunity to
> face their accuser, presumption of innocence, and other basic human
> rights guaranteed, at least, by the US Constitution. (I don't know
[…]
> For myself, I do not have great social skills and cannot read subtle,
> between-the-lines, subtle messages, especially through the medium of
> email. I could see a future where, if I joined Debian, I might make an
> innocent mistake and not realize it until I was removed from the
> project. That does not sound fun.
> 
> So, no thank you. And best of luck to everyone.

I get how you feel.

I maintain a package and well another one which I did not update in 
quite a while… but what I read here does not really add to my 
motivation.

However… no one so far told me to stop maintaining those two packages 
and as I am neither a Debian Developer (DD) or a Debian Maintainer (DM) 
in the sense of the project guidelines, I feel I have nothing to loose 
here.

So maybe… if you like to contribute something, for now… you can have 
someone else upload / sponsor it for you. Choosing that path no 
membership of any kind is involved and there is not really all that much 
too loose.

I bet for now I will focus to continue maintaining that package with a 
good quality for as long as someone sponsors it for me. OTOH I postponed 
my idea to become at least a DM for now, due to what I read here. I told 
my sponsor and he understood.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: enforcement first, ask questions later?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Daniel.

Daniel Pocock - 04.02.19, 07:29:
> On 03/02/2019 11:02, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > Daniel Pocock - 03.02.19, 08:38:
> >> This reveals a lot about the serious problems in Debian right now.
> >> Did we really sign up to be part of an experiment like that?  I
> >> didn't.
> >> 
> >> Why do certain people want to start out with enforcement, skipping
> >> over normal human relations, avoiding meetings for almost a year,
> >> assuming they always know who is at fault?
> > 
> > Quite bold accusations, Daniel.
> 
> Those are known facts, not simply accusations.  They acted like Debian
> is a Facebook group, deleting people without any process or
> discussion. Afterwards, during January 2019, they started making up a
> process to validate their decision retrospectively.  Their arrogance
> is no less bold than my own repudiation of it.
[…]

I am deeply concerned about what you write.

However, for me, these are not facts.

Honestly: I read different posts contradicting each other, partly to the 
maximum extent possible, it appears to me. I have *no* idea, what the 
truth is. My bet is, again: None of it is *the* truth.

Part of a solution for me still is in agreeing to disagree and agreeing 
that no one here is either right or wrong. Different, but not right or 
wrong. And assume good intentions.

For me, again, there is no fault in life.

What I am seeing that you are apparently not, at least not yet achieving 
the result you like to achieve – at least that is how I perceive it. And 
I wonder whether another thread here will bring you closer to achieving 
the result you like to achieve.

Best of luck for you for finding joy again in working for Debian or a 
different distribution or project. I certainly agree that people who 
decide about who is member or no member of Debian are supposed to treat 
everyone fairly… whatever that means concretely.

For me there can be cases for enforcement first, ask questions later. If 
a child runs into a car, I stop the child *physically* without asking 
the child why the child did it or even explaining anything. Or here, if 
the harm of not expelling someone from the project would be so high, 
that immediate action appears to be warranted. But the requirements for 
such an immediate action or decision would be *very high* for me. I 
experienced something like that when practicing in a youth center. A boy 
was about to attack another boy with a knife, a kitchen knife if I 
remember correctly, completely in rage. I caught the attacking boy and 
held him tightly fixed with all my strength until he let go of the knife. 
I clearly said the boy that I will hold him this way until he calms 
down. I did not argue anything. I did not ask any questions either. I 
did not even justify using physical force. I knew either I hold the boy 
or something very tragic might happen. It was a bit of a challenge, 
cause in that situation he was quite strong. A day later the boy thanked 
me for doing so. When reviewing my action later on I decided that I 
would do it like this again if something like this would happen again. 
However, here… within the Debian project… no life has been in danger. 
And while the Debian project is no state, and human rights may not apply 
directly… I either treat others with excellence… or I better do not 
treat them at all. For me every human expression of the one 
consciousness has an inherent dignity that I aim to respect in all 
situations and in all circumstances. For me there is something about 
human rights that is so universal that no entity within human society 
would be outside of it. And that includes Debian.

If Debian project does not aim for the highest standards of excellence… 
not only technically, but also socially, in interacting with one 
another… there is clearly room for improvement.

My usual approach would be to ask first, then decide what to do.

But since I do not really know… out of my own experience… what actually 
really happened here, I see a different stories apparently contradicting 
each other and leave it as that.

Ciao,
-- 
Martin

Re: enforcement first, ask questions later?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Daniel Pocock - 03.02.19, 08:38:
> This reveals a lot about the serious problems in Debian right now. 
> Did we really sign up to be part of an experiment like that?  I
> didn't.
> 
> Why do certain people want to start out with enforcement, skipping
> over normal human relations, avoiding meetings for almost a year,
> assuming they always know who is at fault?

Quite bold accusations, Daniel.

And in yet another thread about what seems to be about the same topic 
than in about half a dozen or even a dozen of threads before this 
thread. If the previous threads did not give you the results you wanted, 
how do you come to believe that this new thread will?

Did you actually aim at talking with the people you accuse? Did you 
contact them personally by mail *before* writing these bold accusations 
to the list?

Our even more clearly: Are *you* even interested in really talking 
*with* them, instead of just *about* them?

That written, I do not have any firm opinion on how true your or the 
story of anyone else who is involved in that is. In the end, they are 
all just that, *stories*. None of it is absolutely true or absolutely 
wrong. 

For me, to exit the current approach of accusing each other is to assume 
good intentions and really notice that there is no fault in life. There 
are certainly correct and incorrect decisions and different opinions on 
what those are, but how would it be if what happened is simply just 
that, is simply just what happened? And what if, just what if it is no 
one's fault, but just a result of a large group of people having 
different opinions and viewpoints of how to work together and struggling 
to find a consensus on how it can work out?

What if, just what if you just for a moment stop giving your power to 
other people by accusing them have done wrong to you or Norbert? The 
more you do that, the more you just keep repeating the same pattern over 
and over and over again.

And now I breathe deeply and let go wanting to control what you do or 
how you do it. You do what you do, you do it the way you do it… and it 
is totally up to you, whether you like to receive anything of what I 
wrote here and take it as an inspiration, or not. It is totally up to 
you whether you continue to give your power away like this, or stop 
doing that and look inside for intuitive guidance and clear reason. And 
it is totally up to me whether I even respond to any further mails like 
this one.

Thank you.
-- 
Martin

Re: 2 minute summary of Debian crisis

[Martin Steel]

On 04/01/2019 21:34, flackjack...@tutanota.com wrote:> 
> 
> In September, the Leader started a whispering campaign to undermine
> another highly respected developer, the developer finds out at Christmas,
> he is rightly furious, who wouldn't be?

Another point of view here...

The fact that some weeks have passed without the leader denying this direct
allegation suggests there is some truth to it.  Retreating to his inner circle
to come up with a story or belated counter-accusations is completely 
unacceptable.

The wise thing to do, make this environment a lot healthier if he followed the
recent example of Mr Jackson and issued an unreserved apology and
retraction sooner rather than later.

A response that comprises prevarication, retaliation and retribution
would be disastrous, please do the right thing.

Best regards,

Martin

Re: Call for experiences of Norbert Preining

[Martin Steigerwald]

Thomas Lange - 09.01.19, 18:17:
> > This reminded me about
> > https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00025.html
> 
> For easier understanding, this is the post from Daniel with subject:
> 
> "€ 500 cash bounty for information / Debian privacy breaches"

Thanks for looking it up.

I do not consider either of those helpful or ethically sound.

For me it has something about denouncing people aka "please tell us how 
bad this person has been".

I do not agree to collect such kind of information *after* a decision 
has been made and I do not agree collecting such kind of information via 
a public call, whether it is delivered together with a cash bounty or 
not.

I just maintain mainly one package for Debian, but my motivation to even 
become just a Debian maintainer, an official one with maintainer rights, 
right now is next to zero. Cause a project where people start to 
publicly call out for evidence to denounce or expel people or keep them 
expelled or do any other kind of harm to them is no project I feel 
comfortable with.

I think this kind of approach seriously harms the reputation of Debian 
as a project. I am thankful that so far no news site I am ware of seems 
to have picked this up and I hope it stays that way.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

[OT] distributions without systemd (was: Re: Censorship in Debian)

[Martin Steigerwald]

Miles Fidelman - 08.01.19, 18:16:
> > I would have been very surprised if you had told me 6 months ago
> > that
> > I would be writing this, but:
> > 
> > Please consider Devuan as an alternative.  You have probably seen
> > awful mails from one or two very toxic trolls pushing Devuan, but
> > the
> > actual Devuan developers I have dealt with have been lovely, and on
> > a
> > technical level they seem to be doing good work.
> 
> Thanks!  It's actually high on my list.  I've been waiting for it to
> mature just a bit, and it seems to have.  Any observations on how it
> stacks up for a production server?  Anything else that strikes you as
> a particularly strong Debian alternative for servers?  (My short
> list, right now is Gentoo, Funtoo, Devuan, and FreeBSD.  I'd been
> hoping that one of the OpenSolaris derivatives would look solid, but
> it's never really happened.  Hypervisors & failover, and replicated
> storage are also high on my list).

I suggest you take Devuan related questions to the devuan mailing list 
dng¹. 

One may argue whether Debian's systemd decision process was similar to 
what happened now, but discussing distributions and other operating 
systems without systemd is clearly off topic on this thread and also off-
topic on the mailing list. It does not add any value to this discussion 
and clutters the thread with unrelated stuff.

That said, two of my server VMs run Devuan since a few months and I am 
happy so far.

[1] https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Censorship in Debian

[Martin Steigerwald]

Ian Jackson - 07.01.19, 19:00:
> > For me, any code of conduct and its enforcement needs to be based on
> > actual behavior, never on assuming intentions or assuming about how
> > people are.
> 
> Once again, there is a difference between *assuming* and *inferring*.
> 
> I doubt this will really convince you.  But I couldn't let stand the
> claim that I am *assuming* bad intentions.  I most certainly am not.

I am sorry, that was the conclusion I arrived at as I read your initial 
mail. Thank you for clarifying.

I am still with just looking at behavior for any enforcement, but I 
agree that on repetition of harmful behavior after have been warning, a 
stronger enforcement might be needed.

I am not positive whether that has been the case here, but unless I 
missed I did not yet hear any official statement of anti-harassment or dam 
team. I do not have a complete picture, I wonder whether anyone has. So 
I just let it be as that for now.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Censorship in Debian

[Martin Steigerwald]

Hello,

Ian Jackson - 07.01.19, 16:57:
> Miles Fidelman writes ("Re: Censorship in Debian"):
> > On 1/6/19 1:38 AM, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > > [systemd stuff]
> > 
> > [systemd stuff]
> 
> I appreciate that the fights over systemd have been a defining
> experience for many of us.  Many of us are still bitter, me included.
> I also appreciate that in some respects these fights are still,
> unfortunately, being fought and harm is still being done (although
> things are much less bad than they were).
> 
> But I really don't think it is helpful to link the recent arguments
> over behaviour in the project, with init system diversity problems.
> 
> The issues are very different.  And the toxic emotional and political
> baggage from the init system stuff is really bad.  So bringing init
> system stuff into this conversation about acceptable conduct just
> increases the hurt and argument, but does not lead to any better
> conclusions.

As much IMO its important to let go, forgive and clean up anything still 
left over from that debate… I agree with you.

I got the impression that from reading in various threads that the 
current issues seem to be used as a dumping ground for other stuff that 
is not directly related to it.

I wonder whether it would be a good idea to have something about non-
violent, i.e. peaceful communication in one of the next major community 
events like Debconf and maybe also one about mediation.

I have read the the KDE project had something about non-violent 
communication in their last KDE Academy event.

It appears challenging to me to sort out the issues about the recent 
Code of Conduct enforcement actions without communicating face to face 
or at least via voice.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Censorship in Debian

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Ian.

Ian Jackson - 05.01.19, 18:17:
> Very competently toxic people will calculate precisely what they can
> get away with: they will ride roughshod over weak victims or in
> situations with less visibility; when challenged by an authority who
> can impose consequences, they will lie and obfuscate and distract as
> much as they can get away with.  They will turn the dispute about
> their personal bad behaviour into a big poltical fight so as to
> increase the cost of enforcing the rules against them.  And if that
> fails they will do precisely as much as is needed to avoid further
> punishment.

Have you actually really seen such kind of behavior?

I disagree with calling people toxic.

Also I am not sure how you'd come to know about about any agenda behind 
the behavior. How do you know about the intentions?

One part of the code of conduct as I got it is to assume good 
intentions, here, if I got you correctly you assume bad, harmful 
intentions for at least some people, people that you call toxic.

I can concur that people are different, have different view-points, 
different ways to communicate, different language, different behavior. But 
people aren't inherently good or bad or toxic. Well there are people who 
just troll, but other than that?

For me, any code of conduct and its enforcement needs to be based on 
actual behavior, never on assuming intentions or assuming about how 
people are.

I just maintain some packages, but I am quite concerned about the 
current discussions on debian-project and other public mailing lists.

I am quite confused and don't really know what is going on. I feel kinda 
overwhelmed by all I read so far and it does not give me a clear picture 
on what is actually really going on here. That it appears that a good 
portion of discussions happen on debian-private or other private 
channels does not appear to improve transparency as well.

So just all the best for anyone in the position to do something 
meaningful to help improving the situation. At the moment I feel kinda 
uncomfortable about the Debian project.

Ciao,
-- 
Martin

Re: Debian's Code of Conduct, and our technical excellence

[Martin Steigerwald]

Hello Roberto.

Roberto C. Sánchez - 29.12.18, 18:12:
> Suppose for a moment that a project member [… hypothetical case …]
[…]
> The reason I use the above example is because it is a difficult case
> to handle.  The cases where harm is clearly intended are
> comparitavely very easy to deal with.  Those in which harm may or may
> not have been intended but in which harm may be perceived are more
> challenging.

I wonder about what the point would be to discuss hypothetical cases 
like the one you mentioned.

If there have been practical issues with the handling of code of 
conduct, the behavior of the anti harassment team or the Debian account 
manager team… as there appears to be from what I gathered from what I 
read in recent threads about that, then by all means it is good to find a 
solution.

But I see no point in discussing difficult, completely made up 
hypothetical cases.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Censorship in Debian

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Steve Langasek  [2018-12-29 06:21 +0100]:

Regardless of anything else, this is not unconstitutional.  The constitution
gives the DPL the power to delegate decisions about approving and expelling
developers;


Correct, but this wasn't about approving or expelling developers.

--
.''`.   martin f. krafft  @martinkrafft
: :'  :  proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
 `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems

"academia is really just a way to help those with high volumes of
nothing to say to social status."
-- myself on #debian-devel, 01 Feb 2007


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Re: Censorship in Debian

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Gunnar Wolf  [2018-12-27 14:48 +0100]:

He considered he didn't get a right to be heard, nor notified about
the process as it was progressing towards a decision, but only
notified about a final decision.


I would like to add that this — being presented with a decision, 
without any form of engagement with me, before or after, is exactly 
what happened in my case, except DAM kindly suggested that if 
I followed theit suggestion, I would avoid expulsion. I chose to 
follow those steps, despite the overstepping of competencies at the 
time, also based on the promise I received that the issue would be 
analysed once the waters had calmed. No such analysis ever happened.


--
.''`.   martin f. krafft  @martinkrafft
: :'  :  proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
 `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems

"sometimes the urge to do bad is nearly overpowering"
   -- ben horne


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Re: conspiracies and character assassination in the name of Debian?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Daniel.

Daniel Pocock - 27.12.18, 05:41:
> On 21/12/18 09:25, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > I agree with Russ that your framing of this is absolutely abhorrent.
> > Your continued justification of it is digging a bigger hole. I beg
> > you, please take a step back and reconsider your approach here
> > before continuing along these lines.
> 
> There is clear evidence of character assassination.  I'd like to thank
> all those who responded after my cash bounty offer.  Once again, I
> regret that we are in this situation where such methods are
> necessary.

I do not intend to comment on the other stuff discussed here, … as I 
clearly do not have a complete picture of what is going on, just 
fragments.

However, I see setting bounties for "denouncing" people as harmful to 
the Debian project.

I have no issue with you stepping up for Norbert. I have no issue with 
you standing up for the cause you chose. But I strongly disagree with 
the approach you used. I highly recommend that you reconsider your it.

From what I see it would be most beneficial if the people who are 
involved would just meet and speak about it from person to person or at 
least in some kind of voice conference call. Maybe with a help of a 
mediator, who is clearly not involved with the issue to be cleared up.

Continuing accusations on this list are, in my point of view, not going 
to help healing what has been wounded.

Best,
-- 
Martin

Re: Censorship in Debian

[martin f krafft]

Hello project,

It's very sad to read about what's going on.

I know that there's been at least another case, in which DAM and AH
have acted outside their mandate, threatening with project
expulsion, and choosing very selectively with whom they communicate.
I know, because I was being targeted.

Neither DAM nor AH (the same people still active today) made
a single attempt to hear me. None of my e-mails to either DAM or AH
were ever answered.

Instead, DAM ruled a verdict, and influenced other people to the
point that "because DAM ruled" was given as a reason for other
measures. This was an unconstitutional abuse of DAM's powers, and in
the case of AH, the whole mess also bordered on libel. Among others,
the current DPL Chris Lamb promised a review in due time, but
nothing ever happened.

It's not going to be a constructive use of anyone's time to attempt
to establish transparency into issues of the past, and I've
disengaged anyway, as a result.

But we, as a project, need to ensure that there is more transparency
moving forward. And I think it would be wise to review the way that
DAM and AH operate. We need to ensure they stick to protocol, and
are held accountable for the use of their powers.

Thanks for your attention,

-- 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft  @martinkrafft
: :'  :  not-so-proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems


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Re: Censorship in Debian

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Russ, dear Daniel.

Russ Allbery - 21.12.18, 00:46:
> > Having been rear ended by a utility van, thrown off a motorbike half
> > way across a roundabout and having also received abusive and
> > threatening messages from people within the Debian community, I
> > feel that the physical pain caused by the latter was more than the
> > former.  Those people should be ashamed of themselves.
> 
> Yeah, no shit.  Your lack of awareness that *you* are that person who
> should be ashamed of yourself because that's what *you* just did is
> honestly mind-blowing.

Healing starts when each other stops blaming each other. Blaming each 
other just locks what is in place and starts a spiral of heated 
discussion that causes harm and suffering.

The most important ingredients for relationships that actually work out 
for me are:

1) Mutuality.

2) Harmlessness.

No one needs to be ashamed here. *It is no one's fault.*

Is there something to clear up? Definitely. But is it no one's fault.

It is different ways to see how we interact which each other and different 
ways to argue which each other. None of it inherently right or wrong. 
Just *different*.

What if, just what if each one of you has a completely valid point? What 
if, just what if no one of you is right or wrong? What happens when 
starting to stop wronging the apparent other?

Or even simpler: What would love do now?

I highly recommend to look inside and letting go the need of having to 
respond immediately. I totally get that it can be challenging. I 
experienced that need often enough. Yet I still highly recommend it.

Have a wonderful, peaceful holiday time however you choose to celebrate 
it.

Best.
-- 
Martin

Support WKD (and WKS) for @debian.org email addresses?

[W. Martin Borgert]

Hi,

just testing the waters, whether this is something people like or not:

As we all know, false PGP keys can easily be forged for any given
email address and uploaded to key servers. We've been there, even with
the correct short key ids and equally faked signatures!

One way to help senders getting the real receivers key is WKD (web key
directory). That is one HTTPS URL per email address, e.g. a static
directory with PGP key files. (See https://wiki.gnupg.org/WKD)

Example: To get the public key of Linus Torvalds, you type

$ gpg --auto-key-locate wkd --locate-keys torva...@kernel.org

which fetches the public key from this URL:

https://kernel.org/.well-known/openpgpkey/hu/pf113mfnx1f3eb1yiwhsipa91xfc7o4x

Of course, WKD is only about fetching the key. The actual decision to
trust or not a key, let alone sign it, does not change by use of WKD.

The second thing is WKS (web key service): This is a protocol/tool to
publish, update or de-puplish keys via WKD in a standardized form.
(See https://wiki.gnupg.org/WKS)

Do we want WKD for debian.org, like gentoo.org and kernel.org?

TIA for your opinions & Cheers

Re: Debian trademark, EAN, proposed letter, SPI heads-up

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Martin Michlmayr  [2018-07-07 00:52]:
> I'm happy for SPI to sign this.  Can you please prepare the official
> letter?

Any update on this?

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
https://www.cyrius.com/

Re: Debian trademark, EAN, proposed letter, SPI heads-up

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Ian Jackson  [2018-04-19 14:53]:
> > Thanks for running with this. I am happy with the content and with
> > your name at the bottom.

> I will wait a bit now to see what SPI says.

I'm happy for SPI to sign this.  Can you please prepare the official
letter?

(Sorry for the delay.)
-- 
Martin Michlmayr
https://www.cyrius.com/

Re: Debian trademark, EAN, proposed letter, SPI heads-up

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Ian Jackson <ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> [2018-05-24 18:39]:
> Martin, sorry to press you, but when should we expect to hear from
> SPI, please ?  Or should we keep polling every few weeks ?

I'm sorry for the delay.  I was close on catching up on my TODO list
when I wrote my last email but since then I had some important
personal things to work on.

I'll look into this next week and propose how to move it forwards.

(And please always feel free to ping me in private email when
something is outstanding regarding this or other SPI matters.)
-- 
Martin Michlmayr
https://www.cyrius.com/

Re: Bits from the DPL (April 2018)

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Sean Whitton <spwhit...@spwhitton.name> [2018-04-30 17:30]:
> >  * Ensuring the continuity of Debian's LWN [9] subscription.
> 
> I noticed that name of the group subscription no longer contains
> "HPE-sponsored" (or whatever it was before).
> 
> Are we now funding that group subscription from our own funds?

I believe lamby is working on finding a new sponsor but I don't
know the status.

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
https://www.cyrius.com/

Re: Debian trademark, EAN, proposed letter, SPI heads-up

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Ian Jackson <ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> [2018-05-02 16:42]:
> > I'll discuss with the SPI board.
> 
> When should we expect to hear from you ?

I'm not sure.  I had a deadline a few days ago and I'm just catching
up on my TODO list.

How urgent is this?

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
http://www.cyrius.com/

Re: Power-Management

[Martin Steigerwald]

Marc Haber - 26.04.18, 15:12:
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:12:40PM +1000, Russell Stuart wrote:
> > laptop-mod-mode tools seems to put the laptop into pretty optimal
> > settings without me having to touch anything, or so powertop says.
> 
> Can Laptop-mode-tools in Thinkpads also limit charging of that battery
> to 70 % or another non-100 percentage?
> 
> Unfortunately laptop-mode-tools conflicts tlp which is currently my
> tool to implement the battery saving charge limit.

tp-smapi can:

/sys/bus/platform/drivers/smapi/smapi/BAT0> ls -l st*_charge_thresh
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4096 Apr 26 16:21 start_charge_thresh
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4096 Apr 26 16:21 stop_charge_thresh
/sys/bus/platform/drivers/smapi/smapi/BAT0> echo "80" > stop_charge_thresh
/sys/bus/platform/drivers/smapi/smapi/BAT0> cat stop_charge_thresh 
80

Oh, it can even set the start charge threshold meanwhile, nice:

/sys/bus/platform/drivers/smapi/smapi/BAT0> echo 95 > stop_charge_thresh 
/sys/bus/platform/drivers/smapi/smapi/BAT0> LANG=C echo 90 > start_charge_thresh
/sys/bus/platform/drivers/smapi/smapi/BAT0>

I think I set just the start_charge_threshold, I am not sure of the benefit
of stopping charging at below the maximum capacity the battery can still
hold.

But charging for just a few percent of capacity having been used up does
not make sense.

You need tp-smapi-dkms debian package.

ThinkPad T520 with 4.16.3 self compiled kernel.

Its getting somewhat off-topic here as its not about what the project can do
anymore. Well it could provide some defaults, probably.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Power-Management

[Martin Steigerwald]

Hi Marc.

Marc Haber - 26.04.18, 11:00:
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 09:35:45AM +0100, Chris Lamb wrote:
> > > I was just Wondering if you have any considerations for issuing an
> > > update or designing lets say Debian 10 with Power Management for
> > > laptops in mind.
> > 
> > Such modifications are typically (and best) made in a distribution-
> > agnostic manner, rather than being, say, Debian-specific. :)
> > 
> > However, may I take this opportunity to promote Jonathan Carter aka
> > highvoltage's "Debian Package of the Day" video series? As it
> > 
> > happens, yesterday's package was "powertop":
> >   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3M_g3C15R4
> 
> Power Management is a general big issue in Linux on Laptops. I have
> also made the experience that Windows achives vastly better battery
> run times than any Linux I have ever encountered, even if powertop
> doesn't have anything to complain.
> 
> Alas, I don't have the slightest idea why, maybe somebody can shed a
> light on that.

I think I can only offer what may be a part of the answer to this 
question.

Part of the reason is SATA device link power management (LPM). In 
Windows as far as I concluded about what I read about Linux patches it 
has been enabled for a long time. However as kernel developers enabled 
it, some devices failed badly and AFAIR there even have been corrupted 
data. So kernel developers backed out. Only recently, the implemented 
another link power management mode, similar to what Windows does, and 
this appears to work. Except where it didn´t, like for example my 
Crucial m500 mSATA SSD in this ThinkPad T520, which meanwhile is 
blacklisted. If I remember LPM can make at a difference of a few watts, 
which is quite something. I don´t have links at hand, but I bet articles 
or mailing list posts about that are easy enough to find.

From what I read over the time I concluded that this could be part of a 
more generic reason: Power saving mechanism that work on most devices, 
do not work on all devices. Or need to be implemented in a way that is 
difficult to get right. And I think in part this is just due to badly 
implemented or even buggy firmware in hardware. And in part also due to 
firmwares being closed source blobs, which only the hardware 
manufacturer probably knowing what it really does. Like with 
optimization for SSDs, in part it is all just guess work.

I think what would be beneficial here, if some vendor starts to build 
laptops *from the ground up* for the usage with free software operating 
systems, by opening up all firmware, documenting their interfaces, 
especially for power management. But this would have to be for all 
devices in a laptop, and while there are open channel SSDs for special 
server / data center workloads which just expose their flash chips and 
let Linux do all the rest, there is still so much closed firmware just 
about everywhere. I recently researched how to obtain a laptop with as 
much free software firmware as I can get, put apart from the offers by 
puri.sm, it is a lot of manual work involved or paying someone to do 
that work.

Of cause all that said, I still believe that it is possible to improve 
things on the Linux side. But this does not only need kernel work, it 
also needs user space work. Desktop environments with many features like 
Plasma or GNOME IMO can still be optimized a lot to wake up less, do 
less I/O (especially KDEPIM + Akonadi), and use power saving features 
more aggressively. People with tiling window managers and minimal, 
mostly console tool based desktops may have an advantage here.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Debian trademark, EAN, proposed letter, SPI heads-up

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Ian Jackson <ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> [2018-04-19 16:38]:
> > Just to make sure we're on the same page, you're talking about the
> > draft letter you posted 31 Aug 2017 15:19:18.  There have been no
> > changes since that post, right?
> 
> That's right.  For your convenience my mail
>   Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 13:53:34 +0100
> quoted the thing again.
> 
> There's one bugfix: "the the" should read "the".

Ok, thanks.

I'll discuss with the SPI board.
-- 
Martin Michlmayr
http://www.cyrius.com/

Re: Debian trademark, EAN, proposed letter, SPI heads-up

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Ian Jackson <ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> [2018-04-19 13:53]:
> SPI: are you willing to have the SPI Secretary sign this letter ?  If

Just to make sure we're on the same page, you're talking about the
draft letter you posted 31 Aug 2017 15:19:18.  There have been no
changes since that post, right?

> not, who should we ask for further legal advice ?  Michael Schultheiss
> suggested SFLC but I don't think that any involvement of Debian or SPI
> with SFLC is or would be appropriate.

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
http://www.cyrius.com/

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

[Martin Steigerwald]

Colin Watson - 19.04.18, 01:42:
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 09:28:44PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > Did I get this right that you think that a person can be a problem
> > that possibly would have to be removed from the project?
> > 
> > If so I heavily disagree with that.
> 
> It's an action the project has had to take a few times before, and
> it's probably worthwhile for that sort of inevitably very stressful
> situation to take advantage of the judgement of several experienced
> mediators (or whatever term we end up with) to decide whether it's in
> fact the right course of action.

I agree that this can be the case.

Like in the countries we live in. There are behaviors that justify 
putting a person into prison at least temporarily to make it impossible 
for the person to do it again.

> > I think its crucial to make a clear distinction between the behavior
> > of a person and the person him/herself.
> 
> This is indeed very true and important to keep in mind, but it doesn't
> mean that the project or its members should have to tolerate abusive
> behaviour indefinitely.
> 
> I mean, if your main point is that we should describe the behaviour as
> the problem rather than the person, then that seems like a laudable
> practice.  Just let's not kid ourselves that every situation can be
> resolved without exclusionary measures.

Yes, that was my intention here.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

[Martin Steigerwald]

Ian Jackson - 18.04.18, 19:23:
> The answer is, carrot: advertising that the alternative route has a
> possibility of delivering something like what an angry person actually
> thinks they want - punishment for the wrongdoer.
> 
> And, of course, stick: if you post to d-devel anyway then your own
> behaviour will be scrutinised by that some body, and will be
> officially looked on unfavourably (rather than just get you dogpiled).

Whoa. I do not believe in any of that.

Public shaming and/or other forms of punishment is not going to help 
here. The other way around: One of the threads I think this discussion 
relates to is full with shaming and blaming each other… with the result 
of that clearly visible: at least one package maintainer orphaning 
packages and probably even leaving the project.

If there would be one clear rule, I´d say: Never ever attack a person. 
Harmlessness with each other goes a long, long way. 

Wrongdoing someone who probably did something that did not serve the 
project or another person, i.e. did something "wrong", just continues 
the hurting cycle. And even "wrong" or "right" is just an arbitrary 
judgment. Indeed think "I am right and the other is wrong" is a pattern 
that fuels threads like the one I think this discussion relates to. Its 
also a game that can be played till the end of time. Only exit: One 
party lets go of blaming the other party (as if there would be different 
parties to begin with but that is another story).

There is no wrongdoer, there are just human beings or… souls who play 
the game of human experience.

-- 
Martin

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

[Martin Steigerwald]

Ian Jackson - 18.04.18, 18:17:
> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> > "Debian emotional support group", maybe.
> 
> I find this suggestion very surprising, possibly even insulting.  At
> the very least I need to be much clearer.
> 
> > But maybe wait with the naming until there's a clear description of
> > what the group is reponsible for.
> 
> This group would:
> 
>  * Receive reports of bad behaviour on the part of Debian
>contributors, in whatever forum or venue including in person.

general comment: Your suggestions go way beyond of what I think is 
appropriate.

>  * Resolution might include simply informal discussions and
>reconciliation.  It might involve formal apologies, usually private
> but perhaps public.  It might involve preventative measures (intended
> to limit the damage done); punative disciplinary measures (intended
> to deter); and exclusionary disciplinary measures (intended to remove
> a problem from the community or part of it). It might involve a

Did I get this right that you think that a person can be a problem that 
possibly would have to be removed from the project?

If so I heavily disagree with that.

I think its crucial to make a clear distinction between the behavior of 
a person and the person him/herself. In discussions on mailing list as 
well as for any team that deals with mediation and emotional support 
(without the notion that emotional support for a person means something 
bad or negative about the person who receives the support).

> formal transfer of one or more forms of authority held by some of the
> disputants.
[…]
-- 
Martin

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

[Martin Steigerwald]

Lars Wirzenius - 18.04.18, 15:08:
> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote:
> > I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with
> > these issues.
> 
> Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
> to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't
> happening. The situations seem to be "A did something, and B was
> offended, how do we get A and B to understand each other, and resolve
> any conflict, and get A and B to collaborate in the future?".
> 
> This implies to me that, at the least, "anti-harassment" is the wrong
> name for a team that deals with this.

I think what would be beneficial here is more along the lines of 
mediation.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

[Martin Steigerwald]

Martin Steigerwald - 28.12.17, 13:41:
> Hello.
> 
> This is long, it may invite disagreement, but I tried my best to avoid
> triggering any hurt feelings. In case you just want to be bothered with the

do not want of course.

I proof read the mail several times, but this still slipped through my 
conscious awareness.

> past even for the purpose of figuring out ways to learn from it, I invite
> you to just skip reading the mail. There is certainly no need to relive the
> past. Given current human experience it is also not possible to change it.
> But maybe there is a way toward healing wounds.
> 
> Ian Jackson - 28.12.17, 11:20:
> > Martin Steigerwald writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by
> 
> Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee"):
> > > Any workable solution lies beyond blame, however.
> > > Any workable solution lies beyond "I am right and you are wrong".
> > 
> > Traditionally Debian has a very workable approach for disagreements
> > over whether software X or Y is better.  (For whatever value of
> > "better")  Offer both and let people decide for themselves.
> 
> Sure. And it is a good approach.
> 
> Regarding Systemd/SysVInit/OpenRC this approach comes with a considerable
> cost tough as it is such a core part of the system. One cost is that a lot
> of packages link against Systemd library which is part of the reason why
> Devuan exists. Or that GNOME and to some degree other DEs without Systemd
> is somewhat challenging. Devuan developers gave up on the GNOME without
> Systemd topic for now as far as I understood.
> 
> As far as I understand it is not possible without considerable effort and
> quite some of alternative, basically duplicated packages to provide the
> choice of a truly Systemd free system within Debian. It appears to me to be
> almost like a new architecture like FreeBSD or Hurd flavors, not a
> different CPU architecture. Sure Systemd is not an operating system kernel,
> but it is a software that is really tightly coupled with one – a perfectly
> valid, but not the only possible choice made by upstream developers. But to
> provide a new architecture for this would also be considerable, heavy
> overhead. As far as I understand Devuan works a bit like that. They pull in
> a lot of packages unchanged from Debian and inject their own packages with
> some kind of an overlay mechanism. Maybe there is something for Debian
> people to learn from that approach. I did not review it closely so far.
> 
> I think it is partly this limitation that invited most of the uproar in the
> discussion some years ago.
> 
> > When things start to get really emotional and heated is when people
> > feel (rightly or wrongly) that such choices are being curtailed.
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> For those who don´t want any part of Systemd installed and used, not even
> the libraries, Debian I think is just not the suitable choice at the
> moment.
> 
> Providing that free choice would mean to think about ways how something like
> Devuan could be possible *within* the Debian project. Quite a challenge,
> but not impossible I think. Of course, Devuan people may not want to join
> the Debian project, at least not at the moment. On the other hand they do
> not provide Systemd as a choice within Devuan. They just refer to using
> Debian in case one wants to use Systemd. The other way around it could be
> perfectly valid to refer to using Devuan for those who want a Systemd free
> system.
> 
> I hope for a time where Debian and Devuan people come together to heal the
> forking. And I mean "heal" literally here. Cause there are still wounds. On
> both sides. Whether there would still be a (officially approved?) variant of
> Debian called Devuan does not matter, it could be a perfectly valid
> outcome. But to heal the wounds… I think that is important work to allow
> for that healing to happen.
> 
> A first step could be to stop accusing each other. Letting go of wanting to
> accuse the other side can help here. I do read dng mailinglists from time to
> time and some main people there often actively ask to drop Systemd debates
> or even hate speech on their lists. As far as I saw they try to be fair to
> Debian packagers as well.
> 
> Within the Debian project a first good step would be to accept the fork,
> instead of just tolerating (and probably suffering from) it (what else could
> Debian people anyway than at least to tolerate it? it is free software
> after all). Accepting the fork basically is just accepting that the past is
> they way it is. Could I let go of wanting to change the past? Especially
> when all my wanting to change the past still was not able to change it?
> 
>

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

[Martin Steigerwald]

Hello.

This is long, it may invite disagreement, but I tried my best to avoid 
triggering any hurt feelings. In case you just want to be bothered with the 
past even for the purpose of figuring out ways to learn from it, I invite you 
to just skip reading the mail. There is certainly no need to relive the past. 
Given current human experience it is also not possible to change it. But maybe 
there is a way toward healing wounds.

Ian Jackson - 28.12.17, 11:20:
> Martin Steigerwald writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by 
Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee"):
> > Any workable solution lies beyond blame, however.
> > Any workable solution lies beyond "I am right and you are wrong".
> 
> Traditionally Debian has a very workable approach for disagreements
> over whether software X or Y is better.  (For whatever value of
> "better")  Offer both and let people decide for themselves.

Sure. And it is a good approach.

Regarding Systemd/SysVInit/OpenRC this approach comes with a considerable cost 
tough as it is such a core part of the system. One cost is that a lot of 
packages link against Systemd library which is part of the reason why Devuan 
exists. Or that GNOME and to some degree other DEs without Systemd is somewhat 
challenging. Devuan developers gave up on the GNOME without Systemd topic for 
now as far as I understood.

As far as I understand it is not possible without considerable effort and 
quite some of alternative, basically duplicated packages to provide the choice 
of a truly Systemd free system within Debian. It appears to me to be almost 
like a new architecture like FreeBSD or Hurd flavors, not a different CPU 
architecture. Sure Systemd is not an operating system kernel, but it is a 
software that is really tightly coupled with one – a perfectly valid, but not 
the only possible choice made by upstream developers. But to provide a new 
architecture for this would also be considerable, heavy overhead. As far as I 
understand Devuan works a bit like that. They pull in a lot of packages 
unchanged from Debian and inject their own packages with some kind of an 
overlay mechanism. Maybe there is something for Debian people to learn from 
that approach. I did not review it closely so far.

I think it is partly this limitation that invited most of the uproar in the 
discussion some years ago.

> When things start to get really emotional and heated is when people
> feel (rightly or wrongly) that such choices are being curtailed.

Exactly.

For those who don´t want any part of Systemd installed and used, not even the 
libraries, Debian I think is just not the suitable choice at the moment.

Providing that free choice would mean to think about ways how something like 
Devuan could be possible *within* the Debian project. Quite a challenge, but 
not impossible I think. Of course, Devuan people may not want to join the 
Debian project, at least not at the moment. On the other hand they do not 
provide Systemd as a choice within Devuan. They just refer to using Debian in 
case one wants to use Systemd. The other way around it could be perfectly 
valid to refer to using Devuan for those who want a Systemd free system.

I hope for a time where Debian and Devuan people come together to heal the 
forking. And I mean "heal" literally here. Cause there are still wounds. On 
both sides. Whether there would still be a (officially approved?) variant of 
Debian called Devuan does not matter, it could be a perfectly valid outcome. 
But to heal the wounds… I think that is important work to allow for that 
healing to happen.

A first step could be to stop accusing each other. Letting go of wanting to 
accuse the other side can help here. I do read dng mailinglists from time to 
time and some main people there often actively ask to drop Systemd debates or 
even hate speech on their lists. As far as I saw they try to be fair to Debian 
packagers as well.

Within the Debian project a first good step would be to accept the fork, 
instead of just tolerating (and probably suffering from) it (what else could 
Debian people anyway than at least to tolerate it? it is free software after 
all). Accepting the fork basically is just accepting that the past is they way 
it is. Could I let go of wanting to change the past? Especially when all my 
wanting to change the past still was not able to change it?

I read at least occasionally comments about Devuan in various Debian related 
mailing lists that suggested would not be a long lasting project and there 
would be no capable packagers / developers involved. Comments that tried to 
undermine the relevance of Devuan. A good first step could be to refrain from 
commenting in this way and open up to the possibility that some people there 
are capable packagers and testers as well and that some people have there have 
perfectly valid reasons for doing the work they do. Reasons you can

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

[Martin Steigerwald]

Hello Norbert.

Norbert Preining - 26.12.17, 15:28:
> On Mon, 06 Nov 2017, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > *This* is where I see the true source of the *ongoing* division in the
> > community.  It's not over the technical decision.  It's not even over the
> > decision-making process.  It's that some people, most (but not all) of
> > whom seem to be opponents of systemd, are so completely confident that
> > they're right and that theirs is the only ethical position possible that
> > they repeatedly accuse anyone who disagrees with them of bad faith.
> 
> As if systemd supporters aren't exhibiting the same traits ...
> Just blame one side and be happy.

Yes, I saw blaming on both sides. At times I was blaming as well. And so in my 
surely inaccurate, subjectively colored memory did almost everyone else in a 
more or less apparent way. Also in the arguments that appeared to be purely 
technical. Also most of these as far as I remember contained a notion of "I am 
right and you are wrong".

The truth is: *Both* sides have been involved in the conflict.

Any workable solution lies beyond blame, however.

Any workable solution lies beyond "I am right and you are wrong".

This needs letting go of blame. I am not yet there, I just recently started to 
let go of blame (but in other, for me more important areas of live for now). 
Who is? Who truly let go of blaming the other side in this discussion?

Have a Merry Christmas,
-- 
Martin

Re: Debian banners

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Ian Jackson <ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> [2017-11-15 13:17 
+0100]:
> So, you could ship it to me.  Perhaps Debian wants to pay for the
> shipping out of Debian funds.

Thanks Ian,

at the moment I'm talking to someone in Cuba who'd have good use of
them if we can figure out how to get them over. On the other hand,
I think it'd be a better use of Debian funds just to print them
there.

If nothing else, then I'll take the banners to 34c3, where Holger
has agreed to take them over.

Thanks a lot for your offer though.

-- 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft <madduck@d.o> @martinkrafft
: :'  :  proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems
 
"i love deadlines. i like the whooshing
 sound they make as they fly by."
  -- douglas adams


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Re: Debian shirts give-away

[martin f krafft]

Sent too quickly… there are also DebConf shirts from the following
years: 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 (+orga), 2009 (+orga), 2011, 2014
(+orga), 2015 (+orga), 2016. All Men's L. Same principle as with the
other shirts. Sorry for the spam, if you perceive this as such.

-- 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft <madduck@d.o> @martinkrafft
: :'  :  proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems
 
"this sentence contradicts itself -- no actually it doesn't."
   -- douglas hofstadter


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Debian banners

[martin f krafft]

Hey,

I still have some heavy-duty banners we've used at conferences, as
well as a banner stand in my basement that I need to get rid of.
If you want them or you have an idea what to do with them, please
let me know. Else, come the end of November, I'll be forced to throw
them out.

Cheers,

-- 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft <madduck@d.o> @martinkrafft
: :'  :  proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems
 
minchinhampton (n.): the expression on a man's face when he has just
zipped up his trousers without due care and attention.
   -- douglas adams, the meaning of liff


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Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Russ, dear Sam, dear people involved with Debian,

Russ Allbery - 28.10.17, 16:13:
> Martin Steigerwald <mar...@lichtvoll.de> writes:
> > I always found that just focusing on the technical aspects of the Init
> > system discussion left out… everything else. Even the issue in itself
> > was not purely technical, although back then I had the a feeling that
> > almost no one agreed with me that it was not. Just focusing on purely
> > technical means in that discussion was in my eyes harmful in itself.
> 
> Well, I agreed, and agree, with you that the issue was not purely
> technical, and spent a substantial amount of time, effort, and writeup
> energy on discussing the non-technical issues.  Your description bears
> very little resemblence to the process I was part of.

As always perceptions of different people are different…

> I think it's really important to not oversimplify past discussions.  We're
> in danger of learning the wrong lessons from them.
> 
> One of the reasons why the systemd discussion was so painful was precisely
> that it could *not* be discussed at a level of purely technical details,
> and we all knew it.  […]

My impression from what I read of the discussion was exactly as I described… 
so I did not simplify it by conscious choice…

however I do not claim having read all of it. I also do not claim to remember 
all that I read. It was a *ton* of mails back then and at one point there was 
what I received as moderation but apparently was not meant as one by Don, and 
I decided I could not bear this any longer. I decided to let go of it as best 
as I can. I did not read any of the mails past that point in time.

So yes, I may have simplified it.

> There wasn't *anything* "left out" of that discussion.

In my opinion this is a pretty bold statement.

If everyone has been heard, noticed, felt and valued, if everything has been 
covered, then why are we discussing it… yet again now?

If the conflict resolution process proceeded to its completion, there is no 
reason to.

Moving in circles, as I had the impression the discussion moved in back then 
is not proceeding to its completion. Its the attribute of a circle that I can 
walk its outline forever especially when I do not notice that I am doing so.

So is it merely me wanting badly to have a problem again – or Sam wanting to? 
Or, is there still something left to be noticed, welcomed, embraced and let go 
of? Is there still something that you, understandably, deny by not wanting to 
have that problem again? Only you can answer that question by noticing what 
you feel, so I don´t even try to. Also its not only a question you can choose 
to ask, but one everyone can choose to ask, including myself.

Each one of us can do this work on his or her own. And I am certainly willing 
to.

I certainly think that the CTTE process can be improved upon. Is it bad? I do 
not know and does it really matter to decide? I am sure everyone involved is 
doing their best. We always do.

Can it be improved upon? Yes, is my answer.

I trust to find the answer as to how within me. I may share it when I find it 
at a later time, if its still important to share it then.

One part of an answer for me is within the question I asked here implicitly:

Does the everyone involved with CTTE process drive conflict resolution 
processes to their completion?

Or does someone or a group of people decide to prematurely stop it cause they, 
again, understandably, can not bear it anymore and want to get rid of it? If 
so, what change in how I see a conflict can help me to move beyond?

And can I let go whether moving beyond would be superhuman or not? What is 
human anyway? Am I my human experience?

I let go of any desire to change things now as I just catched myself of 
holding onto it. In the end I am still with the Debian project. I just did a 
new version of fio package. And I keep myself somewhat informed about what 
people do in the Devuan project as well. So what happens if I just accept 
things as they are, just for now?

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

[Martin Steigerwald]

Hello Sam.

Sam Hartman - 27.10.17, 20:18:
> As a member of the technical committee, I've grown increasingly alarmed
> as I think about the impact of the issues that come to us.
> Yes, we're giving answers.  However, I think we are doing a lot of harm
> to the members of our community in the process, and I would like to
> explore whether we can do better.
> 
> I've written a blog entry describing my concerns.  It's on Planet, and
> you can see it at https://hartmans.livejournal.com/97174.html
>
> 
> I've reached a point where I'd like to share my concerns and ask "anyone
> else feel similar?  Anyone else want to work on solving this?"

Thank you for that.

I always found that just focusing on the technical aspects of the Init system 
discussion left out… everything else. Even the issue in itself was not purely 
technical, although back then I had the a feeling that almost no one agreed 
with me that it was not. Just focusing on purely technical means in that 
discussion was in my eyes harmful in itself.

During posting in those endless mailing list threads back then and then being 
moderated by listmasters… asking myself "why me? … and not everyone else as 
well?" I felt so hurt, that I wanted to give up maintaining my few packages. 
So the discussion process itself *even* before involving the Tech-CTTE was 
harmful in my perception.

> In thinking about my concerns I went over a list of issues that have
> come before the TC going back somewhat before the Systemd discussion.
> However, I did not perform any quantitative or statistical analysis.

Do you think decisions of the Tech-CTTE or the process around it changed 
significantly during the Init system decision process? I can imagine that this 
debate back then left a lot of bitterness in quite some of the people who 
engaged with it and I would not be surprised that the decision processes after 
this debate more easily turned into fierce battles than before.

I know the one of the most important ingredients to heal wounds of the past: 
It is forgiveness. The past… is in the past. I know how challenging it can be 
to let go of it.

> If we get to a point where we want to propose a specific change, we'll
> need to convince the project it will make things better.  That's a ways
> down this road.

I have no firm idea how a change could look like, but I think I have a hunch on 
some important aspects in this:

I think it is important to understand the nature of conflicts in order to move 
beyond. Common responses to conflicts are either fight or flight, or stand 
still 
and hope no one will notice you. These responses can be life saving in death-
or-life conflicts, but are often not beneficial in complex decision processes 
that involve technical, social, ethical and personality aspects like within 
Debian. So an important question is: If I neither fight nor flew away or stand 
still and freeze, what will I be doing then?

I agree with you that an important aspect is that each party receives the 
chance to fully express their own position and be heard, seen, felt and 
valued. So I think there needs to be a shift to see conflicts as something 
positive and provide a safe space to express them.

Challenging for me is the answer to the question: How can such a safe place 
look like in a community that is spread around the globe and can often only 
connect via the means of the internet?

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: Debian-branded USB-powered fans

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Ondřej Surý <ond...@sury.org> [2017-10-22 11:05 +0200]:
> I don't know who's planning to have a FOSDEM booth, but maybe they could be
> shipped to Brussels in advance to the event.

Not a bad idea. Wouter, are you still involved?

These officially belong to DebConf15 still, but they aren't in the
balance sheet and thus officially written off. I'll leave it up to
the DebConf people and/or DPL to decide how much they're worth in
terms of sellings vs. giving away.

-- 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft <madduck@d.o> @martinkrafft
: :'  :  proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems
 
"anyone who is capable of getting themselves made president
 should on no account be allowed to do the job"
-- douglas adams


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Debian-branded USB-powered fans

[martin f krafft]

Hello,

We have precisely 198 USB-powered fans left over:

  
http://www.werbeartikel-planimed.de/USB-Ventilator-AERO-FRESH-Werbeartikel-1.html

These have a tiny Debian logo engraved close to the (soft) blades.

They're currently in our basement and can't stay there. I'm
therefore asking for someone to take them into custody, e.g. for
sale at conferences etc..

If by the end of November, nobody's stepped up, I'll be forced to
throw them out or might put them on Ebay.

So if you want them, let me know. There are two boxes, one with 69
and the other with 129. It's probably not worth to send these to
anywhere outside Europe.

-- 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft <madduck@d.o> @martinkrafft
: :'  :  proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems
 
"when a woman marries again it is because she detested her first husband.
 when a man marries again it is because he adored his first wife.
 women try their luck; men risk theirs."
  -- oscar wilde


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Re: Persistence or harassment?

[Martin Quinson]

Hello,

I can confirm this email as spam. Please Alex, stop it.

Bye, Mt.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:41:44AM +0530, Alex Nordeen wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I know my emails could be coming off as harassment due to my persistence.
> 
> But I have nothing but good intentions.
> 
> Please reply if you do not want me to email again.
> 
> Sincerely
> Alex
> 
>  Original Message 
> 
> Good Morning,
> 
> I am Alex Nordeen Editor at Guru99.  Our Goal is to provide Fun and Free
> Education for ALL
> 
> I was doing some research on Python and I came across your page
> https://packages.debian.org/unstable/python/python-lxml-dbg and I noticed
> you linked http://lxml.de/
> 
> I want to highlight that we recently create tutorials on Python
>   that took 160+ hours to
> create with beautifully annotated screenshot, and is very comprehensive.
> 
> The tutorials are created by a Google veteran and I have personally edited
> them. The course covers
> 
> * Python Basics like Introduction, Environment setup and Install
> Guide.
> * It also introduces Main Function, Variables, Strings, Tuple,
> Conditional Statements, OOP Concepts, and Loop.
> * We also touch on advanced topics like Regex Tutorial, OS Module,
> Shell Script Commands, and XML Parser.
> 
> Here is the Link: https://www.guru99.com/manipulating-xml-with-python.html
> 
> Might be worth a mention. :)
> 
> Do you feel it could be a good fit for your audience?  I'd love to know what
> know what you think!
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Alex Nordeen
> 
>  
> 
> You may Unsubscribe
>  E755FFD1144752800=Please%20don%27t%20change%20the%20subject%20of%20this
> %20message%20and%20make%20sure%20you%20send%20it%20from%20the%20address%20it
> %20was%20received%2E>  to stop receiving our emails.
> 
>  
>  wsletter=email=UA%2D83023023%2D1=6C2F57D5AD532AB5B3E9872BC02B8E02
> B9FD7D9B=Internal%20python%2028th%20Aug> 

-- 
On the Internet nobody can hear you being subtle.   -- Linus Torvalds


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Re: GitHub Open Source Survey 2017

[Martin Bagge / brother]

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On 2017-06-14 13:06, Chris Lamb wrote:
>> Well over 50% have marked CLAs of some type of importance. Isn't
>> that high?
> Yes, I would have guessed much lower. I would hope it was due to a 
> philosophical reaction to assigning copyright to
> $also_commercial_corp rather than it being merely a hoop to jump
> through before a PR will be accepted, but the latter might be
> skewing the stats.
> 
> Can we get more clarity from GitHub itself here..?


Looking at the data it seems like the data come from the following:

> 7) When thinking about whether to use open source software, how 
> important are the following things?

> 8) When thinking about whether to contribute to an open source 
> project, how important are the following things?

Graded by
* Very important to have
* Somewhat important to have
* Not important either way
* Somewhat important not to have
* Very important not to have
* Don't know what this is

Given those options I have a hard time seeing that people putting
"Very important not to have" should be bundled together with "Somewhat
important to have" =)

Looked in the survey_data file and the break down for the two types of
responses looks like this:

 User   Contributor
  490 419   Very important to have
 1024 712   Somewhat important to have
 22821266   Not important either way
  336 327   Somewhat important not to have
  157 166   Very important not to have
  488 280   Don't know what this is

I am worried that a good portion of the people outside of "Don't know
what this is" actually does not now what it is, most of them are
indifferent to them.

- -- 
brother
http://sis.bthstudent.se
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Re: GitHub Open Source Survey 2017

[Martin Bagge / brother]

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On 2017-06-06 19:23, Chris Lamb wrote:
> GitHub recently published the announcements of their 2017 Open
> Source Survey:
> 
> http://opensourcesurvey.org/2017/
> 
> 
> I was wondering whether any fellow developers had read this and
> whether they had evaulated it in the context of the Debian project.
> To kick this off, let me quote some of their key insights:

Thanks. I had not read it before and still hasn't read all of it yet.

Spotted a detail in Fig. 3 that wasn't really addressed as far as I
can tell.

Well over 50% have marked CLAs of some type of importance. Isn't that
high?
They might be marked high with the sentiment of "I don't want them and
I deeply care for them to go away" I assume but still.

At the same time license is the most important type of documentation
when it comes to choosing the project to use it seems.

- -- 
brother
http://sis.bthstudent.se
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Re: Sourcing fair-trade t-shirts (was: producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts)

[Martin Steigerwald]

Hello Martin.

martin f krafft - 02.05.17, 07:39:
> and the product we ordered was
> 
>   Stanley,STTM528/STTW006,"Leads2,"Loves",Biobaumwolle
>   + Fairtrade,Kids STTB938,"paints"
> 
> at 4.79 €/piece. Printing was 2 € each, as well 30 € or so one-time
> incidentals, net price.

Okay, scratch what I just wrote. It helps to really carefully read all the 
details of your mail:

You found an even slightly cheaper source. Printing costs are higher at least 
when ordering 500 shirts or more compared to Memo. As I don´t know what 
printing partner Memo uses, it may be fairer tough. For me a price of 7 Euro 
per T-Shirt is totally acceptable, so I see no point replacing printing by a 
cheaper option if that cheaper option is less fair or socially sustainable. 
(Given the mission of Memo I bet they take fairness into account for printing 
as well… but I didn´t found a definitive information on that.)

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Re: producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts

[Martin Steigerwald]

Gunnar Wolf - 01.05.17, 23:44:
> Martin Steigerwald dijo [Mon, May 01, 2017 at 10:13:58PM +0200]:
> > > Make it fair-trade and printed by people with disabilities, like
> > > we did for DC15, and it was somewhere around $8. I'd still buy
> > > a shirt for $15 or so every now and then if it was a witty new
> > > design and a cut of the proceeds were donated to Debian.
> > 
> > I would not have any issue with paying an extra fee for fair-trade,
> > organic T- Shirt. That most are not at FLOSS events is a reason why I
> > sometimes do not opt for a T-Shirt at all.
> > 
> > The very cheap approach of T-Shirt doesn´t go along well with any kind of
> > idealism. Its very nice to hear in retrospect that the DC15 T-Shirts have
> > been fair trade – I didn´t know that.
> 
> Note that "fair trade" is a quite squishy notion. Speaking as a friend
> of the producer, I can assure you that the printing process of our
> usual Mexican dirt-cheap shirts are as fair-trade as they can be; I
> cannot assure the details for the fibers to be organic, and I won't
> claim the shirt maker themselves are overly idealistic, but the
> printing process itself is not a "sweat shop", but a small family
> business that struggles to survive _and_ help our movement, in which
> they believe.

Well, there is a Fair Trade label, that requires a standard to be followed¹. 
But as for organic… well the cheapest supply of certified organic *and* 
fairtrade shirts I know of in Germany is Memo (probably reselling shirts sold 
by Living Crafts). And they charge 6,95 Euro per shirt² ³. Okay, scratch that, 
at another webpage of them I found that depending on amount ordered price can 
be as low as 4,99 per shirt for 500 shirts or more[4].

Printing would be on top of that and I think when done through them be 
dependend of amount of shirts ordered, getting cheaper per shirt with larger 
amount. However I like the way of printing organizers of DC15, Martin, you?, 
found very much. But for the sake of completeness on [4] I also found the 
printing costs which would be 0,65 Euro per shirt in monochrome print and 0,87 
Euro per shirt in multicolor print for 500 or more shirts. I am not sure who 
is their printing partner, I would not be surprised if its some organisation 
with people with disabilites or another socially engaged organisation as well. 
However I think someone would need to ask them – I won´t do at the moment 
cause what DC 15 team would seems to be just fine to me.

[1] I believe this standard applies:
https://www.fairtrade.net/standards/our-standards/textile-standard.html

[2] For men:
https://www.memo.de/Bio-Herren-T-Shirt-mit-Rundhalsausschnitt.html?ono=F3779

[3] For women:
https://www.memo.de/Bio-Damen-T-Shirt-mit-Rundhalsausschnitt.html?ono=F3730

[4] Special memo shop for advertising articles: 
http://www.memo-werbeartikel.de/ws_shop/index.jsp?groupId=18600=group.jsp

> Of course, it helps that our country's economy is way cheaper than
> Europe. I make a quite decent living and earn surely quite a bit over
> average (several stddevs in fact), but I am still quite close to the
> USA minimum wage. So, yes, a $3 shirt provides good value to their
> printers in our reality.

I doubt that anyone would offer a certified fairtrade and organic shirt for $3. 
One point of fairtrade *and* organic is to pay more to the producers, so there 
is a limit as to how cheap they can become. Above is the cheapest source in 
Germany I am aware of. And for my personal feeling thats already quite 
ridiculously cheap given that they are certified organic and fairtrade, but 
here might be indeed at play that working costs in other economies are lower 
than the extremely high costs in Germany I partly which sometimes almost drive 
tears into my eyes when looking at a paycheck. As far as I have seen in [2] 
the production for these shirts is in Asia.

Of course 7 Euro per shirt or 5 euro per shirt for 500 or more might be 
considered to expensive to Debian events. Personally, I am more than willing 
to pay a higher price than that. Even for shopping privately the prices for 
those shirts are low enough for me to never ever even consider to buy anything 
less than this quality for cotton based shirts. I want pesticide free and at 
least somewhat fairly dealt clothing.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

Sourcing fair-trade t-shirts (was: producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts)

[martin f krafft]

also sprach martin f krafft <madd...@debian.org> [2017-05-01 21:37 +0200]:
> Make it fair-trade and printed by people with disabilities, like
> we did for DC15, and it was somewhere around $8.

Since people have asked off-list: the contractor that Daniel Lange
identified was

  Caritasverband für Stuttgart e.V.
  Bereich Arbeit, 7 Siebe
  +49 711 8878652

and the product we ordered was

  Stanley,STTM528/STTW006,"Leads2,"Loves",Biobaumwolle
  + Fairtrade,Kids STTB938,"paints"

at 4.79 €/piece. Printing was 2 € each, as well 30 € or so one-time
incidentals, net price.

Since they work with people with disabilities, they only need to
charge 7% VAT (vs. 19%) in the EU, which helps keep the price low,
and in the end, you end up with something close to 7€/shirt (we
printed 700) of them).

If you want to work with them, you might want to quote the following
from our order:

  Contact person: Herr Schupp
  Order ID: 2015-19310-287 E

Hope this helps.

-- 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft <madduck@d.o> @martinkrafft
: :'  :  proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems
 
murphy's law is recursive.
washing your car to make it rain doesn't work.


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Re: producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Didier 'OdyX' Raboud <o...@debian.org> [2017-05-01 18:44 +0200]:
> If there's interest, I would _really_ recommend finding
> a trustable and specialized partner (such as EnVenteLibre) to
> manage that, even if Debian is to provide the initial funds and/or
> let a certain percentage go.

For many of us, it goes without saying that we'd not take a margin
off merchandise we create/sell for our project, mainly because of
our idealism.

However, at the end of the day, all things considered, if Didier or
Person X would mark those items up, say, 5% to cover the incidentals
(not the time spent), then I wouldn't have a problem with that.
It'll certainly help if they were entirely transparent about it,
though.

Note also that there's nothing that prevents Person Y from producing
Debian merchandise and offering it with a more substantial markup.
If people buy it (i.e. the price is right), then everyone benefits…

-- 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft <madduck@d.o> @martinkrafft
: :'  :  proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems
 
it is ok to let your mind go blank, but please turn off the sound.


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Re: Debian Wiki

[Martin Steigerwald]

Hello Daniel.

Am Samstag, 24. Dezember 2016, 09:32:16 CET schrieb Daniel Landre:
> I recently installed Debian Jesse on an old desktop, but I am not allowed
> to access the Debian Wiki from www.debian.org.
> 
> Exactly why is that? As a new user of thee Debian Linux Desktop I try to
> find information. In this case about the AT Radeon HD5000 videocard that
> requires a non-free driver. Now Debian is telling me it is running in
> software rendering mode, but I cannot find a decent driver anywhere to
> install,
> 
> Apart from that Debian looks great for now.

Thank you for your mail.

Please use debian-user or another user related mailing list for your query. 
This mailing list is not an user support channel.

Also your mail is missing vital information on what *exactly* happens when you 
try to access the Debian wiki, with which browser you try to access it and so 
on. I just tested access to wiki from link on debian.org and directly by 
typing wiki.debian.org on Debian unstable and this works.

Thanks and have a merry christmas,
-- 
Martin

Re: third-party packages adding apt sources

[Martin Steigerwald]

On Samstag, 21. Mai 2016 10:53:34 CEST Vincent Bernat wrote:
>  ❦ 21 mai 2016 10:24 +0200, Martin Steigerwald <mar...@lichtvoll.de> :
> > Still, the turn around time between upstream and debian release would be
> > quite high for Debian stable users, but maybe part of such a
> > collaboration could be to also provide newer releases via backports.
> > Also… if upstream wants to release the built packages even quicker to
> > testers or adventurous people, why not allow them to put newer versions
> > of the official packages into their own repo while still integrating them
> > with the official repo? For Owncloud for example this could lead at least
> > to *compatible* packaging. Right now switching between Debian packages
> > and upstream packages basically destroys a working Owncloud installation
> > and requires quite some manual interaction to get things working again.
> > But with compatible packages people could easily switch between "I use
> > stable packages", "I use backport packages" and "I don´t care I want the
> > latest I add the upstream repo".
> 
> Owncloud upstream seems quite hostile towards Debian. But your
> proposition works with some other upstreams. For example, we are doing

Yeah, with Owncloud I still hope for changes, but I think it needs to happen 
on both sides and I saw some willingness on side of upstream, but also quite 
some concern. Also upstream project seems changing quite a bit with people 
leaving Owncloud Inc.

> all the packaging work for HAProxy, both official and unofficial
> packages (more backports, backports to Ubuntu) and upstream is quite
> happy (while in the past, upstream asked us to not ship HAProxy in
> Debian because it would be too old).
> 
>  http://mozilla.debian.net/
>  http://haproxy.debian.net/
>  http://ganeti.debian.net/
> 
> I think those packages are ideal to keep everyone happy. People can
> choose whatever they want and bear with the consequences. And the
> packages are "top" quality because they are derived from the packages in
> unstable.

Okay. I was aware of mozilla.debian.net, but not the others, well, that would 
be also a nice approach for upstream which might be nice to mention on 
upstream landing page.

I never thought this is available on a more general base.

> However, the examples above are compatible with our way of
> packaging. Would we want spend time on packaging stuff that would never
> go to the Debian archive due to excessive vendoring or unwilling from
> upstream to be in a stable release?

No. I don´t think that is a good idea and so I agree with David´s decision 
regarding Owncloud. He spend *a lot* of work which will not end up in Debian 
Stretch, at least not with the current situation.

But in some case I am not sure whether there have been any serious attempts to 
talk and find solutions that work. Maybe currently its not feasible with 
Owncloud, but I do think the current situation is a loss for both upstream and 
Debian.

> Now, I usually ask upstream if they would be interested to have their
> software in Debian and then, I propose for them to maintain it or
> comaintain it. Many are happy with that but some just say no. I don't
> keep tabs, but here is one example (not my own request):
> 
>  https://github.com/jordansissel/fpm/issues/409

*sigh*, not the first time I heard that Jordan is not fond of Debian packaging 
guidelines and more of a Fedora guy.

-- 
Martin

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Re: third-party packages adding apt sources

[Martin Steigerwald]

On Samstag, 21. Mai 2016 11:13:41 CEST Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 10:07:43AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > I wonder about a landing page for upstreams interested in working with the
> > Debian project to provide packages within the official Debian repos.
> 
> Is https://wiki.debian.org/UpstreamGuide the kind of page you mean? It
> is not necessarily well known.

Oh, its all there already, *including* a mailing list.

Ok, so maybe all whats needed for now is some promo work on this? And probably 
updating here and there.

I was totally unaware of this.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin

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Re: third-party packages adding apt sources

[Martin Steigerwald]

On Samstag, 21. Mai 2016 10:24:22 CEST Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> I wonder about some kind of adopt an upstream within a Debian team kind of 
> approach. A landing page and mailing list where upstream can write in for 
> getting help and advice and voicing their needs. And when there are people
> in  Debian willing to work with upstream they can build a team.
[…]
> I do think spelling out an invitation to work together officially can help
> to  attract more upstreams to work closer with Debian.

Also explaining on that page to upstream why Debian has the quality and 
stability requirements it has and what benefits this can create for upstreams 
including with offers on how to meet different upstream needs where that would 
be possible.

-- 
Martin

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