Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 10:55:10PM -0500, Brian Nelson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
> "Karsten M. Self"  writes:

<...>

> > I don't dislike emacs keybindings per se (I find most legacy MS
> > Windows- centric word processors unusable because I expect to find
> > C-a, C-e, C-k, C-p, C-n, C-s, C-r, etc., on them.  Abiword's
> > supposed to have an emacs mode though I haven't got it to work).
> > That said, I find vi a more comfortable editor generally.
> 
> The thing that really bothers me about vi is that it's very
> QWERTY-centric and feels very awkward with another layout, like
> Dvorak.  The most often-used keys are chosen due to their position in
> the home row, and are completely meaningless in any other context (for
> example, j moves down, k moves up???).

I have to agree.  I taught myself Dvorak at one point (about ten days to
get over the hump), and found it worked relatively well for text
editing in, say, a standard word processor.  But it absolutely blows
chunks with vi.

The problem isn't just vi, though.  _Most_ Unix commands are based on
mnemonic, consonant-heavy, abbreviations:  ls, cd, rm, mv, ll, who, vi,
ps, mutt, df  Most of these are balanced between left and right
hands, leading to good natural rhythems, many are based on home-row
keys, etc.  Two of the most annoying Dvorak keytrokes are 'ls' (both
right pinky) and 'cd' (right middle top row, right index home left
reach).  It sounds trivial, but you end up typing these repeatedly, and
the motor memory is hard to break.


> Emacs' key bindings, however, are not aimed toward any particular layout
> but instead are often chosen as abbreviations of English words (C-n =
> next line, C-p = previous line, C-s = search, etc.).  Since the Dvorak
> layout has the most commonly used letters in the home position, these
> key bindings tend to feel more natural on Dvorak (at least to me).

Interesting, hadn't considered that.   Then again, who wants to
remember that escape-x-alt-control-left shift-b puts you into
super-edit-debug-compile mode?  ;-)

I've always found the emacs keystrokes to be considerably
_anti_-ergonomic.  Pessimal, really.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgpiMePMwYx8m.pgp
Description: PGP signature

RE: man v. info

[Paul 'Baloo' Johnson]

On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I really agree with this. I find 'info' very frustrating;
[...]
> As to what to do about it, I can only suggest
> "reinstate the man pages in full". I know it's
> not 'kosher' to disagreee with the GNU "info
> policy", but I think that those who do disagree
> should say so. After all, it'a a Free and Open
> World, isn't it?

Yup, info pretty much blows.  It's very counterintuitive and completely
unapproachable to the uninitiated.  The only real decent interface for
info is info2html, and it *still* blows because the only people who use
info are GNU and nobody else...

-- 
Baloo

Re: User process killer script..

[k l u r t]

On Wednesday 26 December 2001 07:34 am, Petre Daniel wrote:
> Ok,i promise next year i'll take a look on the many shell scripting
> tutorials, but until then i need a script that checks periodically for
> processes belonging to users not presently logged in and kills them.Like
> someone would leave a wget in background..and i want it after the user logs
> out to be killed ;-))

#!/bin/sh
windows_sys_admin | handholding > /dev/null
echo "RTFM" > Petre

> you get the point..
what??! ...that your a "system administrator" and you don't know how to write 
a simple shell script?!

sorry for being rude... but, if you can't help yourself

- k l u r t

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Brian Nelson]

"Karsten M. Self"  writes:

> on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 11:38:43AM -0500, Brian Nelson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> wrote:
> > "Karsten M. Self"  writes:
> > 
> > >   - It's (largely) bound to a specific viewer.  Which, if you don't use
> > > emacs, isn't particularly usable, and is about as intuitive
> > > as...well, emacs.  This has changed as additional viewers are
> > > avilable (e.g.:  pinfo -- based on lynx...but, of course, I don't
> > > care for lynx's keybindings, and use w3m instead)
> > 
> > Funny, I prefer w3m over links and lynx because of its emacs-like key
> > bindings.  :)
> 
> W3M has, to my mind, fewer surprises.  One of the things about Info is
> that an awful lot of key combinations lead you places, from whence
> returning is difficult.  It's also easier IMO to find and read the help
> reference in W3M.  Riddle me this, but I find a full-screen help page
> much more useful than a half-height one such as you get with emacs, vim,
> or info.  I've come to use 'screen' extensively, and find that I'm more
> comfortable rapidly cycling between multiple full buffers than trying to
> read two half-height windows.

Aw, come on, this is emacs.  I'm sure there's a way to customize it so
that it won't split the window when showing a temporary help buffer.  Or
C-x 0 (that's a zero) will get the job done too.

> I don't dislike emacs keybindings per se (I find most legacy MS Windows-
> centric word processors unusable because I expect to find C-a, C-e, C-k,
> C-p, C-n, C-s, C-r, etc., on them.  Abiword's supposed to have an emacs
> mode though I haven't got it to work).  That said, I find vi a more
> comfortable editor generally.

The thing that really bothers me about vi is that it's very
QWERTY-centric and feels very awkward with another layout, like Dvorak.
The most often-used keys are chosen due to their position in the home
row, and are completely meaningless in any other context (for example, j
moves down, k moves up???).

Emacs' key bindings, however, are not aimed toward any particular layout
but instead are often chosen as abbreviations of English words (C-n =
next line, C-p = previous line, C-s = search, etc.).  Since the Dvorak
layout has the most commonly used letters in the home position, these
key bindings tend to feel more natural on Dvorak (at least to me).

-- 
Brian Nelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bignachos.com

Re: kernel compile problems

[Sean Johnson]

On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 19:43:46 +0100
David Gardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

<--snip-->
>  >So, is there some sort of problem with kernel compiles here recently?
>  >I notice we got new gcc packages yesterday...
>  >
>  >Running: sid, up to date as of 12/25.
>  >
>  >john.
>  >
> Are you using debian unstable, and using binutils?
> If so, your best bet would be to downgrade binutils to the latest
> stable. I had the same problem.
> David.

The current binutils in sid is fine for compiling 2.4.17 (latest 2.4.x stable 
kernel).

Sean


-- 

GPG Public Key available: http://www.gutenpress.org/gpg/sean.asc




pgpbGoTxNPheY.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Shell script for clients email broadcast..

[Karsten M. Self]

on Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 03:55:41AM -0800, Petre Daniel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
> Ok,this may sound a bit twisted but i dont know very well shell scripting 
> and i have the following problem:

> i have around 700 accounts on my school server and i want to send email to 
> everyone of them from time to time with news related to the school and stuff..
> I thought i can make an account and put in its homedir .forward file all 
> the addresses

> I need a script that if run, checks all /home accounts and put them
> like [EMAIL PROTECTED] in the .forward of my
> email-broadcast-account.  Or is there another simple way?

Simpler?  Dunno.  Other?  Sure.

  - Use a mailing list, e.g.:  Mailman.
Pro:  This is what it's designed for.  Highly configurable.
Con:  A modicum of setup is involved.

  - Use an MUA mail alias (within your mailer, e.g.:  mutt)
Pro:  Simple
Con:  Alias is expanded in mailer, all addressees see all others,
  unless Bcc'd or similar.

  - Use an MTA mail alias (within your mail daemon, e.g.:  exim)
Pro:  Reasonably simple.  Conceals/supresses recipient addresses.
Con:  Requires root access.  May be accessible to outsiders if your
  box can be used as a relay.


You could also use a shell script and a recipients list:

$ vi body # message body
$ find /home -type d -maxdepth 1 | xargs -n 1 basename > whoto
$ for i in $( cat whoto ); do mail -s "Subject" $i < body; done


I'd probably opt for the Mailman option, particularly considering once
you've set up one list, you'll likely have requests for others.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgpV3p7nVxPB8.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: man v. info

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 06:32:31PM -0800, Craig Dickson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
> Carl Fink wrote:
> 
> > BTW, for HTML docs, put them all in *one* file with hyperlinks.  There is no
> > meaningful advantage to cutting it into twenty pieces, and it makes
> > searching significantly more difficult.
> 
> For locally-stored docs that's arguable. The advantage of small files
> comes when you have to read it across a network, especially a WAN.

I'd disagree.  Info nodes can be _quit_ small -- a screen or less of
data.  Load latency kills you more than the actual data transfer
interval.  I'd rather have, say, 1/10 the interrupts, of roughly 2-4
times the duration, than to be interrupted with great frequency.

This can be further mitigated by browsers that render on partial load,
or which allow background loading of pages (Galeon rocks for this).

> When I want to search a directory of HTML files, I tend to grep it
> first, then view the files that seem to be apropos.

One better:

$ less $( grep -l 'pattern' filelist )

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgpwD7CXvdzt9.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Shell script for clients email broadcast..

[Alvin Oga]

hi ya petre

if you create  the [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...than everybody
else can also send out spam to all the 700 accounts
- you probably wanna use  a moderated mailing list
so that only authorized people can send out emails
to everybody

"simple" way is all relative to the way you wanna do things

- no script is needed ... for this "email everybody monster"

c ya
alvin

To extract the current list of users

cat /etc/passwd | cut -d : -f 1 > /home/broadcaster/everybody.lst

take out things like root, bin, nobody and other system accounts


to make the majordomo file or mailman or your fav ML manager
/home/majordomo/Lists/everybody

and configure it as closed and moderated
and even passwd protected

to broadcast ... uncomment the alias... 
vi /etc/aliases
...
everybody:  :include:/home/broadcaster/everybody.lst
...


On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Christoph Simon wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Dec 2001 03:55:41 -0800
> Petre Daniel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Ok,this may sound a bit twisted but i dont know very well shell scripting 
> > and i have the following problem:
> > i have around 700 accounts on my school server and i want to send email to 
> > everyone of them from time to time with news related to the school and 
> > stuff..
> > I thought i can make an account and put in its homedir .forward file all 
> > the addresses
> > I need a script that if run,checks all /home accounts and put them like 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] in the .forward of my email-broadcast-account.
> > Or is there another simple way?
> > Thx.
> 
> Edit a copy of the password file.
> 

User process killer script..

[Petre Daniel]

Ok,i promise next year i'll take a look on the many shell scripting 
tutorials,but until then i need a script that checks periodically for 
processes belonging to users not presently logged in and kills them.Like 
someone would leave a wget in background..and i want it after the user logs 
out to be killed ;-))

you get the point..
thx again


Petre L. Daniel,System Administrator
Canad Systems Pitesti Romania,
http://www.cyber.ro, email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel:+4048220044, +4048206200

Re: man v. info

[Craig Dickson]

Carl Fink wrote:

> BTW, for HTML docs, put them all in *one* file with hyperlinks.  There is no
> meaningful advantage to cutting it into twenty pieces, and it makes
> searching significantly more difficult.

For locally-stored docs that's arguable. The advantage of small files
comes when you have to read it across a network, especially a WAN.

When I want to search a directory of HTML files, I tend to grep it
first, then view the files that seem to be apropos.

Craig, enjoying the aftereffects of a superb Cabernet Sauvignon (Napa
Valley, Clos du Val, 1994)

Re: Shell script for clients email broadcast..

[Christoph Simon]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2001 03:55:41 -0800
Petre Daniel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ok,this may sound a bit twisted but i dont know very well shell scripting 
> and i have the following problem:
> i have around 700 accounts on my school server and i want to send email to 
> everyone of them from time to time with news related to the school and stuff..
> I thought i can make an account and put in its homedir .forward file all 
> the addresses
> I need a script that if run,checks all /home accounts and put them like 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] in the .forward of my email-broadcast-account.
> Or is there another simple way?
> Thx.

Edit a copy of the password file.

--
Christoph Simon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---
^X^C
q
quit
:q
^C
end
x
exit
ZZ
^D
?
help
.


--
Christoph Simon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---
^X^C
q
quit
:q
^C
end
x
exit
ZZ
^D
?
help
.

Re: OT(Merry Christmas)

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 24, 2002 at 01:37:28PM +0100, Thomas Wegner ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:


Only 365 shopping days left

> Hello!
> 
> Merry Christmas for everybody on this list. I whish you a calm christmas
> and a healthy new year. And thank you for your greate community.
> 
> Thomas
> -- 
> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgpQZ2jzlwx9W.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: What's a debian kid look like?

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001, Phillip Deackes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Erik Steffl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Phillip Deackes wrote:
> > > On 24 Dec 2001 17:44:44 -0500
> > > > Erik Steffl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > 
> > > > No, but when a business chooses degenerate mail and forces everyone
> > > > to use it, I'd be pretty suspicious of high-level idiocy within the
> > > > business.
> > 
> >   I did not write that, it was written in a response to my email.
> >
> 
> Sorry, Erik. I thought I had sorted all the nested quotes and arrived at
> the author of the quote - and this where we all correctly bottom-post.
> Goodness knows how they do it where everyone top-posts!

That's easy:  I delete the posts ;-)

And I won't say a thing, not a thing, about reposting articles to lists
which shall remain nameless, formatted so that they're actually
***FUCKING READABLE***and taking the opportunity to replace "leader"
with "monopolist" in "about Microsoft" portions of press releases.  No,
not a thing.

> I assumed a single > before ' wrote' would match up to a single >
> before a response. 

No.  See above:

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001, Phillip Deackes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Erik Steffl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

...the attribution line is the _current_ author's addition.  So, I say
"on date, foo wrote", but foo is quoted as "> what foo wrote".  Above,
Phillip wrote that Erik wrote

> Maybe somewhere along the line the attribution got mangled. 

Looks like it was your doing.  Your attribution lines themselves are
wrapping, whihc may be part of the problem.

> Then looking at your post I think I have got it wrong. No quote before
> 'xxx wrote' matches single quote before comments.

Yes.

> I think I have eaten and drunk too much!!

It could be worse.  You could have drunk and eaten too much ;-)

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgpLIAc5q19QX.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Shell script for clients email broadcast..

[Petre Daniel]

Ok,this may sound a bit twisted but i dont know very well shell scripting 
and i have the following problem:
i have around 700 accounts on my school server and i want to send email to 
everyone of them from time to time with news related to the school and stuff..
I thought i can make an account and put in its homedir .forward file all 
the addresses
I need a script that if run,checks all /home accounts and put them like 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] in the .forward of my email-broadcast-account.

Or is there another simple way?
Thx.

Petre L. Daniel,System Administrator
Canad Systems Pitesti Romania,
http://www.cyber.ro, email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel:+4048220044, +4048206200

Re: The Info v. Man War of 2001 (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 05:28:56PM -0600, Bud Rogers ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Tuesday 25 December 2001 16:52 pm, Henrik Enberg wrote:
> 
> > But none of the current browsers I'm aware of has the index and
> > searching facilities that info has.  When I'm stuck with html
> > documentation I'm always extremely annoyed about how hard it is to find
> > what I'm looking for.
> 
> Me too.   And when I'm stuck with info documentation I am often 
> extremely annoyed about how hard it is to find what I'm looking for.  I 
> don't think that is an info vs html issue.  I think it is a problem not of 
> the document format or protocol, but of the structure of the document 
> itself.  The problem is not the tool used to produce the document 
> but the person producing the document.
> 
> In defense of info I would say this: it predates html.  

Actually, they're very nearly coincident.

The info changelog starts with a June 26, 1988 entry by RMS.  Tim
Berners-Lee's work on HTML and the World Wide Web started at CERN in
1988:

In 1980 I played with programs to store information with random
links, and in 1989, while working at the European Particle Physics
Laboratory, I proposed that a global hypertext space be created in
which any network-accessible information could be refered to by a
single "Universal Document Identifier". Given the go-ahead to
experiment by my boss, Mike Sendall, I wrote in 1990 a program
called "WorlDwidEweb", a point and click hypertext editor which ran
on the "NeXT" machine.

http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/ShortHistory.html

Various concepts concerning hyperlinked texts have been kicked around
since, depending on your perspective and definitions, the 1980s, 70s,
60s, or 50s, with the work of Marshal McLuhan and Vannevar Bush.  By the
mid-1980s, there was already a hypertext conference...and Jakob Nielsen
was there:

http://www.useit.com/papers/tripreports/ht87.html

By that time, we'd already seen Ted Nelson's Xanadu proposal, the Apple
Hypercard stack, work by Xerox (another blown PARC chance...), 

The Nielsen report makes for IMO interesting reading, it's a good
historical referrent from just before the emergence of a number of
systems we're currently discussing.  Interesting is footnote 10, which
refers to the "getting lost" problem.  There are additional "early /
precursor days of the Web" reports at:

http://www.useit.com/papers/tripreports/



> AFAIK it was the first widely known or used hypertext documentation
> protocol.  

Not quite, by 10-20 years depending on your reckoning.  But one of the
earlier implementations.



> In criticism of info I would say this: it predates html.

Heh!

> AFAICT it hasn't changed a bit.  We have learned a quite a bit about
> hypertext since info was developed.  Info was a marvel in its day, but
> it is IMHO simply obsolete.
> 
> Now I'm not trying to defend html in particular, although well written
> html documentation can be very nice to read and quite intuitive to
> navigate.  So too can info, for that matter.  I would much prefer well
> written, well structured documentation in some more universal format,
> like docbook, which can produce output to suit the reader's
> preference.  Those who prefer html or postscript or pdf or plain text
> or even info for that matter, can read the docs in the format they
> prefer.  That's what I'd like to see.

Agreement.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgpVHF8J5nII0.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Twin towers (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

[Carel Fellinger]

On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 04:42:20PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> on Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 12:40:46AM +0100, Carel Fellinger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> wrote:
...
> > I was only surprised by the vehement nature of your dislikes, but
> > I think I see. The main problem you and others have with info are:
> > 
> > 1) you don't know the keys to use
> 
> No.  For the nth time:  it's the binding of content to a specific
> browsing tool.

Okee, the keys are no problem then, though from most of your other
reactions it sure seemed like a really hot item.  But the nth time
mentioned thing seems strange to me, as there is info2www proving the
content isn't bound to info. There are other info replacing browsers
AND I stronly believe it to be possible to derive info pages formatted
in many a ways as to serve the browser of your liking given that the
info pages are described in TeX (texinfo to be precise).  Okee you
have to write a whatever-suits-you driver in TeX, but then you get to
browse them in whatever way you like.  The most widely used texinfo
converter in use produces the normal info pages geared to be browsed
with an info like browser, but I doubt there is a fundamental problem
with writing your own converter.  Much like nroff files can be printed
on a laser printer or viewed on a text only screen.

> > 2) the FSF put a ban on manpages
> 
> Yes.

Given that my number 1 was wrong and your number 1 is mute I take it
that this is the real reason for your vehement dislike of info.
If so, it's no info you dislike, it's loosing manpages that you hate.
Let me restate then a heartedly me too.

-- 
groetjes, carel

Re: man v. info

[Carl Fink]

On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 05:00:36PM -, Ted Harding wrote:

> As to what to do about it, I can only suggest
> "reinstate the man pages in full". I know it's
> not 'kosher' to disagreee with the GNU "info
> policy", but I think that those who do disagree
> should say so. After all, it'a a Free and Open
> World, isn't it?

I despise "info".  Use man as a base, and anything more elaborate that
actually *requires* hyperlinking, use HTML. 

BTW, for HTML docs, put them all in *one* file with hyperlinks.  There is no
meaningful advantage to cutting it into twenty pieces, and it makes
searching significantly more difficult.
-- 
Carl Fink   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manager, Dueling Modems Computer Forum

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Wendell Cochran]

> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 15:25:09 -0500 (EST)
> From: David Teague <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

[snip]
> Html information browsed with a decent TEXT mode browser that is
> intuitive (OK I know one man's intuitive is another's nightmare) . .
> .  [snip]


Off topic, & drifting . . . .

One of the greatest sins chargeable to Microsoft is debasement of
the language, notably in reducing `innovative' to `Different, esp. as
practiced in Redmond.'

As for `intuitive' in computing, it has been perverted to `the way
I'M
used to doing things.'  Or, worse, `in the Microsoft Way.'

The word is no longer useful to the pure in heart.  Let's leave it to
billg & minions.

Wendell Cochran
West Seattle

Re: new mutt index/thread format

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Brian Potkin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2001.12.24.0008 +0100]:
> This is something I had also intended looking into so your message
> prompted me to go through my mail backlog.  The patch mentioned is, I
> believe, now available.

$hide_missing is interesting, but it almost doesn't do anything. and,
i just got an email displayed as follows:

42  S+ Dec 25 someone (   0) ?-&*?-&-?-&-?-&-?-&-?-&-?->Re: Fwd: seamu

what good does it do to know that this is at level 10 of the thread???
all other messages from the thread had already been moved to another
folder...

i guess i'll just talk to mutt-users...

-- 
martin;  (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
  \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
echo '[dO%O+38%O+PO/d0<0]Fi22os0CC4BA64E418CE7l0xAP'|dc


pgpf5DK4nxWyk.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: How to read CD label?

[Michael Mauch]

Neal Lippman wrote:

> Is there any utility that can give me the lablel on a CD (mouinted or 
> unmounted - doesn't matter to me).

isoinfo -d -i /dev/cdrom

isoinfo is part of mkisofs.

Or this script ("cd-info"):

#!/bin/bash

RD=${1:-/dev/cdrom}

for i in 32768,7  32776,32 32808,32 32958,128  33086,128  33214,128 \
 33342,128  33470,32  33581,16  33598,16   33615,16   33632,16

do
old_IFS="$IFS"
IFS=","
set -- $i
IFS="$old_IFS"
OFFSET=$1
LENGTH=$2
echo "*`dd if=$RD bs=1 skip=$OFFSET count=$LENGTH 2>/dev/null`#"
done


I'm afraid I don't know the author of this script, though.

Regards...
Michael

Re: ISO Images

[dx]

you can try http://www.linuxiso.org/

- Original Message -
From: "k l u r t" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Paul A. Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: 
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 11:37 PM
Subject: Re: ISO Images


> On Sun, 23 Dec 2001, Paul A. Thomas wrote:
>
> > Newbie question if I may?
> >
> > Today is Sunday, 12-23-01:  Should I be able to access the ISO images
> > for Debian Linux at   cdimage.debian.org  ?
> >
> > I've also tried a few of the mirrors without any luck finding it.
> > Could anybody direct me to an alternative site which carries the latest
> > .. stable? .. ISO image?
> >
>
> Planet Mirror in Australia
> http://ftp.planetmirror.com/pub/debian-cd/
>
> there you will find stable , testing , and unstable cd images
>
> or
>
> Australia:
>
> ftp://ftp.planetmirror.com/pub/debian-cd/unofficial/
> http://ftp.planetmirror.com/pub/debian-cd/unofficial/
> rsync://ftp.planetmirror.com/debian-cd/unofficial/
>
> Catalonia:
>
> http://getyouriso.dyndns.org/debian-cd/
>
> China (Beijing):
>
> ftp://sc.ns-lab.com/pub/iso/debian-woody/
>
> Germany:
>
>
> ftp://ftp.uni-bremen.de/pub/mirrors/debian_cdimages/debian-unofficial/
>
> Hungary:
>
> ftp://ftp.kfki.hu/pub/linux/cdimages/debian-unofficial
> http://ftp.kfki.hu/linux/cdimages/debian-unofficial
> rsync://ftp.kfki.hu/ftp/linux/cdimages/debian-unofficial
>
> ftp://omega.elte.hu/mirror/debian-unofficial/
>
> Poland:
>
> ftp://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/pub/Linux/distributions/debian-cd-unofficial/
>
>
rsync://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/ftp/pub/Linux/distributions/debian-cd-unofficial/
>
> Sweden:
>
> ftp://ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/cd-images/debian-unofficial/
> http://ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/cd-images/debian-unofficial/
> rsync://ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/cd-images/debian-unofficial/
>
> Switzerland:
>
> ftp://sunsite.cnlab-switch.ch/mirror/debian-unofficial/
> http://sunsite.cnlab-switch.ch/ftp/mirror/debian-unofficial/
>
>
>
> yknow, i did find these links via http://debianplanet.org ... wasn't to
> hard.
>
> - k l u r t
> --- --- --- --- ---
> They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
> deserve neither liberty nor safety.  - Benjamin Franklin
>
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>

RE: man v. info

[Ted Harding]

On 25-Dec-01 Imre Vida wrote:
> [snip]
> The major sources of help/information for me are
> the apropos, the -h/--help options and the man pages.
> These are fast and efficient means to find what i want
> most of the time.
> 
> As far as info is concerned, i fully agree with Karsten.  
> It doesn't work intuitively for me either; i just get 
> lost in the maze of links and 3 sentence pages
> I hate it for this.
> 
> The lack of manpages, and outdated manpages are frustrating.  
> And what Karsten brought up is also a nice idea:
> to have examples in man pages. There are some manpages with examples 
> but most of them are without although they are really helpful.
> [snip]

I really agree with this. I find 'info' very frustrating;
the most useful way I have found to use it is simply to
scroll through as if it was one continous document, and
at that stage it might as well be in 'man' format anyway.

If you reall want to search through a 'man' page,
a simple way is

  man whatever | col -b | less

('col -b' strips out any highlighting/underlining,
e.g. 'b^Hbo^Hol^Hld^Hd' and allows the keywords
to be searched for like all the others).

As to what to do about it, I can only suggest
"reinstate the man pages in full". I know it's
not 'kosher' to disagreee with the GNU "info
policy", but I think that those who do disagree
should say so. After all, it'a a Free and Open
World, isn't it?

Happy Christmas and New Year, and best wishes to all,
Ted.


E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 167 1972
Date: 25-Dec-01   Time: 17:00:36
-- XFMail --

Twin towers (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

[Karsten M. Self]

on Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 12:40:46AM +0100, Carel Fellinger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:38:49PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> > on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:44:17AM +0100, Carel Fellinger ([EMAIL 
> > PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > > On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 03:07:41PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> > > ...
> > > > I ***DESPISE*** info.  The pinfo alternative helps somewhat, but the
> > > > basic concept still sucks.  It should be scrapped for a searchable
> > > > format based on HTML, XHTML, or preferably something like DocBook
> > > > capable of creating multiple output formats.
> > > 
> > > I don't get this, just as I don't understand people bashing Stallman.
> > > What is it in the program that is so horrible to ***DESPISE*** it?
> > 
> ...all of Karsten's objections snipped
> 
> Help, I didn't mean to start a war,

Whaddya expect if you fly your hijacked civillian email plane into the
spiritually symbolic twin towers of man and info ;-)

> I was only surprised by the vehement nature of your dislikes, but
> I think I see. The main problem you and others have with info are:
> 
> 1) you don't know the keys to use

No.  For the nth time:  it's the binding of content to a specific
browsing tool.

> 2) the FSF put a ban on manpages

Yes.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgp15jptis6LO.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: nfs root mount problem

[J.A.Serralheiro]

well, I alreadyt made a floppy but now im starting from pure dos using 
.com programs. In fact when I tried to copy it to the floopy i had the
similar problems as u describe, but I compiled the boot1a.bin program so I
could copy it to the floppy with the cat utility. I cant remember how I
did, but I remember I had to do it manually after compiling the boot prom
itself, let me see...It looks it works
oh I think I did this:

goto ./ether_something/src
then type 
make bin/boot1a.bin

If you have an original Makefile it should compile boot1a.bin & place it
in src/bin/

THen all you have to do is proceed with instructions in the etherboot
manual..


regards. It seemed my problem was related with the ether=  thing in the
kernel command line. I hanvent been working on that, but I will try it
soon

thanks


On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, David Wright wrote:

> 
> 
> How did you make a boot floppy that initiates the process? I am just 
> starting to try to make diskless systems (not to make thin clients, but to 
> centralize software installation on a computational cluster) and am stuck. 
> The etherboot tutorial says to
>   cat floppyload.bin 3c905.lzrom > /dev/fd0
> but the etherboot distribution doesn't contain any "floppyload.bin" (yes, 
> I did make it) and the ROM images from http://www.rom-o-matic.net end in 
> .lzdsk  not .lzrom, which I'm not sure is the same. Is there a more 
> up-to-date tutorial which does etherboot with boot floopies?
> 
> On a related note, the 2.2.x kernels must be built with an "allow root to 
> mount over nfs" option to get this to work, but this option appears to be 
> gone from the 2.4.x kernels. Is it unnecessary, or just hiding?
> 
> 

Re: What's a debian kid look like?

[Erik Steffl]

Phillip Deackes wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 14:21:27 -0800
> Erik Steffl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Phillip Deackes wrote:
> > >
> > > On 24 Dec 2001 17:44:44 -0500
> > >
> > > > Erik Steffl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > >
> > > > No, but when a business chooses degenerate mail and forces everyone
> > > > to use it, I'd be pretty suspicious of high-level idiocy within the
> > > > business.
> >
> >   I did not write that, it was written in a response to my email.
> >
> 
> Sorry, Erik. I thought I had sorted all the nested quotes and arrived at
> the author of the quote - and this where we all correctly bottom-post.
> Goodness knows how they do it where everyone top-posts!
> 
> I assumed a single > before ' wrote' would match up to a single >
> before a response. Maybe somewhere along the line the attribution got
> mangled. Then looking at your post I think I have got it wrong. No quote
> before 'xxx wrote' matches single quote before comments.

  that's right, and it makes sense because xxx wrote is not part of the
quoted text (e.g. first line of my post which starts with Phillip... is
part of my post, not part of message to which I reply to, which has one
> in the beginning of the line).

> I think I have eaten and drunk too much!!

  possibly:-)) but clearly not enough if you can formulate readable post
on the next day... well, hooray for healthy life style:-)) happy
holdays!

erik

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Carel Fellinger]

On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 03:16:15PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> on Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 12:01:43AM +0100, Carel Fellinger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> wrote:
...
> > I see. So you're surprised by all those web pages that have next, and
> > previous buttons too:)
> 
> Previously addressed:  there is a distinction between navigation native
> to the _browser_ (following the browser history), and to that native to
> the _content_ (following the document hierarchy).  Info blends these, to
> its loss IMVAO.

right and wrong. The distinction is sound, and *kept* by info. Up, next and
previous are document content related, and last is browse history related.
But using last you get easily lost, because a reverse of last is missing:(

-- 
groetjes, carel

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Carel Fellinger]

On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:38:49PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:44:17AM +0100, Carel Fellinger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 03:07:41PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> > ...
> > > I ***DESPISE*** info.  The pinfo alternative helps somewhat, but the
> > > basic concept still sucks.  It should be scrapped for a searchable
> > > format based on HTML, XHTML, or preferably something like DocBook
> > > capable of creating multiple output formats.
> > 
> > I don't get this, just as I don't understand people bashing Stallman.
> > What is it in the program that is so horrible to ***DESPISE*** it?
> 
...all of Karsten's objections snipped

Help, I didn't mean to start a war,
I was only surprised by the vehement nature of your dislikes, but
I think I see. The main problem you and others have with info are:

1) you don't no the keys to use
2) the FSF put a ban on manpages

Let me start with 2. I personally don't like the deprication of man
pages either.  It is a good place to lookup syntax, options and the
like.  For deeper insight a suplementairy format like info is better
suited, but nothing beats a manpage if you only have to lookup the
name of an option [okee program --help]. But man bash is a nightmare.
Best would be if the man pages could be derived from the info pages,
skipping much of the deeper stuff.

The anwser to 1 is simple: learn it;)  (<--- note there is a smily there)

For search you might try the vi-like / (be aware that ? is bound to
help)  The nice thing of the search is that it's a multi page and even
a multi file search.  So unlike web pages, the search is not restricted
to the currently viewed page, but covers all of the info document.

Or use i (and ,) to search the index, almost like using a real book:)

-- 
groetjes, carel

Re: What's a debian kid look like?

[Phillip Deackes]

On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 14:21:27 -0800
Erik Steffl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Phillip Deackes wrote:
> > 
> > On 24 Dec 2001 17:44:44 -0500
> > 
> > > Erik Steffl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > 
> > > No, but when a business chooses degenerate mail and forces everyone
> > > to use it, I'd be pretty suspicious of high-level idiocy within the
> > > business.
> 
>   I did not write that, it was written in a response to my email.
>

Sorry, Erik. I thought I had sorted all the nested quotes and arrived at
the author of the quote - and this where we all correctly bottom-post.
Goodness knows how they do it where everyone top-posts!

I assumed a single > before ' wrote' would match up to a single >
before a response. Maybe somewhere along the line the attribution got
mangled. Then looking at your post I think I have got it wrong. No quote
before 'xxx wrote' matches single quote before comments.

I think I have eaten and drunk too much!!

Take care.

-- 
Phillip Deackes
Using Debian Linux

/"\   
\ /   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
 XAGAINST HTML MAIL AND NEWS
/ \ 

Re: The Info v. Man War of 2001 (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

[Bud Rogers]

On Tuesday 25 December 2001 16:52 pm, Henrik Enberg wrote:

> But none of the current browsers I'm aware of has the index and
> searching facilities that info has.  When I'm stuck with html
> documentation I'm always extremely annoyed about how hard it is to find
> what I'm looking for.

Me too.   And when I'm stuck with info documentation I am often 
extremely annoyed about how hard it is to find what I'm looking for.  I 
don't think that is an info vs html issue.  I think it is a problem not of 
the document format or protocol, but of the structure of the document 
itself.  The problem is not the tool used to produce the document 
but the person producing the document.

In defense of info I would say this: it predates html.  AFAIK it was the 
first widely known or used hypertext documentation protocol.  In criticism 
of info I would say this: it predates html.  AFAICT it hasn't changed a 
bit.  We have learned a quite a bit about hypertext since info was 
developed.  Info was a marvel in its day, but it is IMHO simply obsolete.

Now I'm not trying to defend html in particular, although well written 
html documentation can be very nice to read and quite intuitive to 
navigate.  So too can info, for that matter.  I would much prefer well 
written, well structured documentation in some more universal format, like 
docbook, which can produce output to suit the reader's preference.  Those 
who prefer html or postscript or pdf or plain text or even info for that 
matter, can read the docs in the format they prefer.  That's what I'd like 
to see.

-- 
Bud Rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
All things in moderation.  And not too much moderation either.

Re: Galeon and Java

[Walter Hofmann]

On Sun, 23 Dec 2001, Sridhar M.A. wrote:

> After that I assumed that the pages that would not display earlier would
> come out properly. I was wrong :-( I tried the subscription page of
> www.pcquest.com for credit card transaction and contact us page of
> www.citibank.co.in. Both return blank pages after about a minute or so.

The contact us page of www.citibank.co.in redirects to www.citibank.com
and they have a broken router/firewall which blocks ECN. Try
  echo 0 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn
as root.

Walter

Automatic download from secure site?

[mdevin]

I am looking for a way to automate some downloading from my banks secure
site.  I am a customer and have a login account and password.  I can
login and view the page with my account details etc.  But I would like
to be able to setup a program to do this on a daily basis and download
the page to my computer for further processing etc.

Is there a tool that can automate such secure logins and downloads?

Any ideas?

Thanks.
Mark.


pgprC15PLiS9D.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Karsten M. Self]

on Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 12:01:43AM +0100, Carel Fellinger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:41:19PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> > on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:57:27PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> > wrote:
> > > dman writes:
> > > > Personally it is the emacs-centric interface.
> > > 
> > > What is emacs-centric about (N)ext, (P)revious, (U)p, (S)earch,
> > > and ENTER?
> > 
> > How about the fact that NPU have no relationship to your _own_ path
> > through the documentation tree (as they would in, say, a web browser,
> > which is, along with 'less', the most common text-reading environment
> > most of us know.
> 
> I see. So you're surprised by all those web pages that have next, and
> previous buttons too:)

Previously addressed:  there is a distinction between navigation native
to the _browser_ (following the browser history), and to that native to
the _content_ (following the document hierarchy).  Info blends these, to
its loss IMVAO.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgpsBNgmpBnob.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: /dev/dsp not found: KDE/ALSA - pls help!

[Stephan Hachinger]

Hello!

Sorry for posting the whole message on the list w/o snipping, but I
think some parts of the thread did not make it into the mailing list
and now I really have no ideas anymore what is going wrong here :(.
KDE doesn't recognize /dev/dsp but in fact, everything else seems to
be ok etc... Has anyone had issues like these with alsa 0.9.0b3 or
similar or does anyone know what the problem really is caused by?

Cheers,

Stephan

P.S.: Ross, sorry that I have not replied for so long but I've had
lots of stress the last days :(.

On Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:25:41 -0800
Ross Boylan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The basic sound is compiled into the kernel--not a module.
> Other than that, my sound configuration is as you describe.
> On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 03:11:10PM +0100, Stephan Hachinger wrote:
> > Hi!
> > 
> > Is the soundcore.o module also loaded? That's a module directly
from
> > the linux kernel (if you compile the kernel yourself: You have to
> > switch general sound card support to "M" (modularized), but leave
all
> > other options off on the sound card support configuration page;
if
> > you don't compile it yourself: This module should be part of the
> > kernel packages). It it at least necessary with my alsa 5.10
> > distribution. Just try to load it using modconf.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Stephan
> > 
> > 
> > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:00:31 -0800
> > Ross Boylan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > Thanks for the suggestions.  Unfortunately, I already had the
> > aliases
> > > in my modules.conf (except I use sbawe).
> > > 
> > > I tried setting the sound system to OSS, but still no signs of
> > life.
> > > 
> > > I'm reluctant to remove the aliases, since the alsa
documenation
> > calls
> > > for them.
> > > 
> > > Argh!
> > > 
> > > lsmode shows lots of the right modules loaded:
> > >   35744   0
> > > 9184   0  [snd-pcm-oss]
> > 6016   0
> >5312   0  [snd-card-sbawe]
> >   5408   0  [snd-card-sbawe]
> >  48576   0  [snd-pcm-oss snd-sb16-dsp]
> >10432   0  [snd-opl3 snd-pcm]
> >2624   0  [snd-card-sbawe snd-sb16-dsp]
> >12576   0  [snd-mpu401-uart]
> >10816   0  [snd-card-sbawe]
> > 3952   0  [snd-opl3 snd-rawmidi snd-emu8000]
> > 15392   0  [snd-card-sbawe]
> > > snd-sb-common   6040   0  [snd-card-sbawe snd-sb16-dsp
> > snd-sb16-csp]
> > > snd-hwdep   3680   0  [snd-opl3 snd-sb16-csp]
> > > snd24776   0  [snd-pcm-oss snd-mixer-oss
> > snd-card-sbawe snd-opl3 snd-sb16-dsp snd-pcm snd-timer
> > snd-mpu401-uart snd-rawmidi snd-emu8000 snd-seq-device
snd-sb16-csp
> > snd-sb-common snd-hwdep]
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 05:21:55PM +0100, Stephan Hachinger
wrote:
> > > > Hi!
> > > > 
> > > > Hmm, I don't have no idea :(. But I have looked through my
> > modules.conf and
> > > > found the following entries:
> > > > 
> > > > # ALSA multiplexer
> > > > 
> > > > alias char-major-116 snd
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > [etc]
> > > > 
> > > > Maybe adding the missing entries helps. On this system where
I
> > have those
> > > > entries in modules.conf, respectively in
/etc/modutils/aliases
> > (the best is,
> > > > you add such entries to /etc/modutils/aliases -> run
> > "update-modules" ->
> > > > they are written to modules.conf automatically), strangely
enough
> > only
> > > > setting the arts daemon to "open sound system" makes it work,
but
> > at least
> > > > the sound server works... The system had another soundcard
before
> > and with
> > > > this one, it worked absolutely the right way but now only
with
> > the "oss
> > > > trick".
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Another try: I also have a second system here without any
entries
> > in
> > > > /etc/modutils/aliases (arts runs properly!); on this system
the
> > following
> > > > modules are loaded at bootup:
> > > > 
> > > > snd-card-sbawe (i.e. my sound card module)
> > > > snd-mixer-oss
> > > > snd-pcm-oss
> > > > snd-synth-emu8000 (i.e. the module for my AWE wavetable
device)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Hmm, maybe the first or the second entries (or combine both
;))
> > help... Any
> > > > other suggestions by anyone else?
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > 
> > > > Stephan
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > 
> 

Re: The Info v. Man War of 2001 (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 11:52:45PM +0100, Henrik Enberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
> "Karsten M. Self"  writes:
> 
> > on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 01:07:23PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> > wrote:
> 
> >> I thought you were a man page enthusiast.  Now you want html
> >> documentation?  IMHO html is a lousy choice.
> >
> > It's a well known standard.  I know a lot of people (including many
> > nontechnical ones) who spend hours in a web browser.  I don't know many
> > people (including many technical ones) who spend comperable time in the
> > info browser.  It's a familiarity issue.  Sometimes the familiar is
> > superior to the "good".  Say what you will about the Web, it abstracts
> > content from the reading tool.  I can read with Galeon, Mozilla, Konq,
> > MSIE, w3m, lynx, links, or dumped to a textfile and paged with less [1].
> 
> But none of the current browsers I'm aware of has the index and
> searching facilities that info has.  When I'm stuck with html
> documentation I'm always extremely annoyed about how hard it is to find
> what I'm looking for.

This is where the Unix philosophy takes over:  simple tools, with
well-defined tasks.  Browsing and navigating content is one task.
Searching and indexing it another.  So you create a second tool to do
the indexing.  The search/index functionality of info should be
extractable as a CGI or similar utility.  A good browser (or
command-line tool) will allow you to access that CGI readily, including
by keystroke, if you wish.



> [...]
> 
> > Having spent a half hour or so browsing info pages via Web through
> > dwww, I have to say that info makes worse web pages than either man
> > or DocBook, though the DocBook document structure resembles the info
> > structure largely.
> 
> This probably has something to do with the conversion.  I'm not
> familiar with dwww, but I personally think that texi2html (you'll need
> the texi sources) creates better html pages than anything you can get
> out of a man page.

AFAICT, dwww uses info2html.



> > Note too:  with DocBook, you've got the option of splitting a document
> > at major section breaks, or dumping it as One Big File®, depending on
> > your SGML parsing arguments.  Anyone know if Info's got a similar
> > functionality?
> 
> texi2html does, if you have the texi sources.

Thanks.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgppFpMoRinUU.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: ssh and X

[Dimitri Maziuk]

* Jens Müller ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) spake thusly:
> Since upgrading to Woody, X forwarding over ssh does not work any
> longer, which is a bad thing, since I cannot run X programs as
> super-user now.

Check that you allow X11 forwarding and root login ("yes", not 
"without password") on the server. Other than that, most problems
are due to different versions of the SSH protocol used (v.2 vs
v.1.5 on older versions of OpenSSH). Check if you have id_rsa and
id_dsa keys for v.2 in authorized_keys[2], and "Protocol" and 
RSA-related options in sshd_config.

Dima
-- 
I have not been able to think of any way of describing Perl to [person]
"Hello, blind man?  This is color."  -- DPM

Re: man v. info

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 12:51:09PM -0600, Colin Watson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 05:24:26PM +0100, Imre Vida wrote:
> > The lack of manpages, and outdated manpages are frustrating.  
> > And what Karsten brought up is also a nice idea:
> > to have examples in man pages. There are some manpages with examples 
> > but most of them are without although they are really helpful.
> > 
> > It would be nice to know how other people think about this
> > and if there is sufficient interest to also talk about what 
> > should/could be done to change this.
> 
> Come up with examples and send patches. That'll achieve results much
> faster than anything else I can think of.

Specific instructions on how to do this?

I significantly reformatted the printcap(5) man page at one point and sent
the result to the package maintainer, with no results or response.

If you'll look at printcap manpage, you'll find that large portions of
it are essentially "pre" formatted text (or the groff equivalent), and
structured for a terminal window rather wider than 80 characters.

Might be useful to go through the manpages and look for similar
issues

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgpQwUfXNbeXM.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Carel Fellinger]

On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:41:19PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:57:27PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> wrote:
> > dman writes:
> > > Personally it is the emacs-centric interface.
> > 
> > What is emacs-centric about (N)ext, (P)revious, (U)p, (S)earch, and ENTER?
> 
> How about the fact that NPU have no relationship to your _own_ path
> through the documentation tree (as they would in, say, a web browser,
> which is, along with 'less', the most common text-reading environment
> most of us know.

I see. So you're surprised by all those web pages that have next, and
previous buttons too:)

> I constantly find myself surprised with where info wants to take me, and
> perplexed at how to get back to where I wanted to be.

Ah, at last I can full heartedly agree with you:)  Especially when
dealing with nested uses of the Last button, I get lost and often have
to go back to the top level of the document.

-- 
groetjes, carel

Re: The Info v. Man War of 2001 (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

[Henrik Enberg]

"Karsten M. Self"  writes:

> on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 01:07:23PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> wrote:

>> I thought you were a man page enthusiast.  Now you want html
>> documentation?  IMHO html is a lousy choice.
>
> It's a well known standard.  I know a lot of people (including many
> nontechnical ones) who spend hours in a web browser.  I don't know many
> people (including many technical ones) who spend comperable time in the
> info browser.  It's a familiarity issue.  Sometimes the familiar is
> superior to the "good".  Say what you will about the Web, it abstracts
> content from the reading tool.  I can read with Galeon, Mozilla, Konq,
> MSIE, w3m, lynx, links, or dumped to a textfile and paged with less [1].

But none of the current browsers I'm aware of has the index and
searching facilities that info has.  When I'm stuck with html
documentation I'm always extremely annoyed about how hard it is to find
what I'm looking for.

[...]

> Having spent a half hour or so browsing info pages via Web through dwww,
> I have to say that info makes worse web pages than either man or
> DocBook, though the DocBook document structure resembles the info
> structure largely.

This probably has something to do with the conversion.  I'm not
familiar with dwww, but I personally think that texi2html (you'll need
the texi sources) creates better html pages than anything you can get
out of a man page.

> Note too:  with DocBook, you've got the option of splitting a document
> at major section breaks, or dumping it as One Big File®, depending on
> your SGML parsing arguments.  Anyone know if Info's got a similar
> functionality?

texi2html does, if you have the texi sources.

Henrik
-- 
For every fatal shooting, there were roughly three non-fatal shootings.
And, folks, this is unacceptable in America.  It's just unacceptable.
And we're going to do something about it.
-- George W. Bush

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 11:38:43AM -0500, Brian Nelson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
> "Karsten M. Self"  writes:
> 
> >   - It's (largely) bound to a specific viewer.  Which, if you don't use
> > emacs, isn't particularly usable, and is about as intuitive
> > as...well, emacs.  This has changed as additional viewers are
> > avilable (e.g.:  pinfo -- based on lynx...but, of course, I don't
> > care for lynx's keybindings, and use w3m instead)
> 
> Funny, I prefer w3m over links and lynx because of its emacs-like key
> bindings.  :)

W3M has, to my mind, fewer surprises.  One of the things about Info is
that an awful lot of key combinations lead you places, from whence
returning is difficult.  It's also easier IMO to find and read the help
reference in W3M.  Riddle me this, but I find a full-screen help page
much more useful than a half-height one such as you get with emacs, vim,
or info.  I've come to use 'screen' extensively, and find that I'm more
comfortable rapidly cycling between multiple full buffers than trying to
read two half-height windows.

I don't dislike emacs keybindings per se (I find most legacy MS Windows-
centric word processors unusable because I expect to find C-a, C-e, C-k,
C-p, C-n, C-s, C-r, etc., on them.  Abiword's supposed to have an emacs
mode though I haven't got it to work).  That said, I find vi a more
comfortable editor generally.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgp8ly9g71hHq.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: man v. info

[Dimitri Maziuk]

* Imre Vida ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) spake thusly:
> hi,
> 
> i just read the (sub)thread above on man v. info
> and i thought it is much more important than 
> to have it hidden in there.  So i thought i try 
> to pick it up again.
> 
> The major sources of help/information for me are
> the apropos, the -h/--help options and the man pages.
> These are fast and efficient means to find what i want
> most of the time.
> 
> As far as info is concerned, i fully agree with Karsten.  
> It doesn't work intuitively for me either; i just get 
> lost in the maze of links and 3 sentence pages
> I hate it for this.
> 
> The lack of manpages, and outdated manpages are frustrating.  
> And what Karsten brought up is also a nice idea:
> to have examples in man pages. There are some manpages with examples 
> but most of them are without although they are really helpful.

 On IRIX, for one example, many man pages 
do have EXAMPLES section; they had it for ages.

Writing a decent manpage is obviously way too hard. Let's
invent a maze of twisty little hyperlinks, all alike,
instead, and call it "info".

Dima
-- 
I have not been able to think of any way of describing Perl to [person]
"Hello, blind man?  This is color."  -- DPM

Man deprecated, Info not there, -doc package? (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 08:07:40AM -0600, Colin Watson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:21:55AM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> > on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 03:54:36AM -0200, Christoph Simon ([EMAIL 
> > PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > > On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:38:49 -0800
> > > "Karsten M. Self"  wrote:
> > > > ...followed by dire warnings that the manpage may not be updated,
> > > > etc., etc.  At which point the pitiless reader turns to the info
> > > > document...which in many cases is a copy of the same manpage (now
> > > > presented in an unfamiliar document viewer).  Houston, we've got a
> > > > problem.
> > > 
> > > This is the choice of debian maintainers.
> > 
> > Looks to me more like someone dropped the ball.  "Gee...GNU doesn't do
> > man pages, so we'll note that in the man page, but I don't feel like
> > writing an info page".
> 
> No, usually what's happened in these cases is that the man page is in
> the main package while the info pages are in a separate -doc package
> which you haven't got installed. When you type info, it can't find the
> real info page, so it reverts to its neutered "try to view man pages"
> mode instead.

Hmm...

If this is the case, I'd suggest it's a bug in Debian, and the man page
should indicate that, not only is the Info page preferred, but that, if
it's not found on the system, the appropriate Debian -doc package should
be installed.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgpzHEicVObcU.pgp
Description: PGP signature

The Info v. Man War of 2001 (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 01:07:23PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> I wrote:
> > What is emacs-centric about (N)ext, (P)revious, (U)p, (S)earch, and ENTER?
> 
> Karsten M. Self writes:
> > How about the fact that NPU have no relationship to your _own_ path
> > through the documentation tree...
> 
> What does that have to do with my question?

14 and green ducks.

> > ...as they would in, say, a web browser, which is, along with
> > 'less', the most common text-reading environment most of us know.
> 
> I thought you were a man page enthusiast.  Now you want html
> documentation?  IMHO html is a lousy choice.

It's a well known standard.  I know a lot of people (including many
nontechnical ones) who spend hours in a web browser.  I don't know many
people (including many technical ones) who spend comperable time in the
info browser.  It's a familiarity issue.  Sometimes the familiar is
superior to the "good".  Say what you will about the Web, it abstracts
content from the reading tool.  I can read with Galeon, Mozilla, Konq,
MSIE, w3m, lynx, links, or dumped to a textfile and paged with less [1].


> Michael Mauch writes:
> > What's wrong with the (L)ast key? And then, of course, you have the
> > (S)earch key and most of the times an (I)ndex.
> 
> And, of course, there is 'info info' for those who actually want to learn
> to use info.

As I noted:  the 'man' man page is transitive between man and info --
you can get the full man page from within info.  The 'info'
documentation is assymetric:  you can't get useful information from
within man, which, if it's your preferred or known environment, is where
you know how to operate.  This is a Bad Thing®.

Having spent a half hour or so browsing info pages via Web through dwww,
I have to say that info makes worse web pages than either man or
DocBook, though the DocBook document structure resembles the info
structure largely.

Note too:  with DocBook, you've got the option of splitting a document
at major section breaks, or dumping it as One Big File®, depending on
your SGML parsing arguments.  Anyone know if Info's got a similar
functionality?

Peace.


Notes:

1.  Not uncommon for me when snarfing content with lynx -- I *really*
don't care for default lynx colors and navkey bindings, and haven't
been able to grok its config file to change this.  W3M wins heavily
over lynx for the former's ease of configuration.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgpdYA3CsX1dB.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: What's a debian kid look like?

[Erik Steffl]

Phillip Deackes wrote:
> 
> On 24 Dec 2001 17:44:44 -0500
> 
> > Erik Steffl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > No, but when a business chooses degenerate mail and forces everyone to
> > use it, I'd be pretty suspicious of high-level idiocy within the
> > business.

  I did not write that, it was written in a response to my email.

> It is about *choice* not just your choice but that of others working in
> the company too. Imagine if each employee had a different opinion - there
> are a plethora of different OSs and MUAs out there - and if each employee
> was this dogmatic. I am ICT Coordinator in a school, so I am in a position
> where I could move from Windows NT4/Windows 98 to a Linux solution, but I
> must consider the opinions, however misguided, of other users in the
> school. Democracy is like that. The majority opinion is in a great many
> cases not the best opinion.

  choose an open standard which generally gives people most choices -
which exchange is not (it depends how exactly you configure it though)

> Are you like this when your company offers you a company car? Would you
> resign because it was not the car you would have preferred?

  note that this is targeted to the guy who responded to me, not to me.

  in my opinion one should judge overall situation, not every little
detail. I wouldn't go there working as mail server admin though:-) one
serious problem is caledar functionality - if they would replace
exchange by some other email solution how wold they achieve same
calendar functionality?

erik

How to read CD label?

[Neal Lippman]

Is there any utility that can give me the lablel on a CD (mouinted or 
unmounted - doesn't matter to me). I generally burn CD's with a volume label 
(with cdrecord), and I use them to keep track of what is on the CD, 
especially for backups which I encode with the date of the backup for future 
reference. However, when I mount the CD (I actually use autofs) I don't see 
any way to easily tell what CD is in the drive.  'man -k cd 'didn't turn up 
anything that seems to do the trick, and if it is in the CD howto, I missed 
it.

Thanks.

Neal

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 07:18:08PM +0100, Michael Mauch ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
> Karsten M. Self schrieb:
> 
> > on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:57:27PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> > wrote:
> > > dman writes:
> > > > Personally it is the emacs-centric interface.
> > > 
> > > What is emacs-centric about (N)ext, (P)revious, (U)p, (S)earch, and ENTER?
> > 
> > How about the fact that NPU have no relationship to your _own_ path
> > through the documentation tree (as they would in, say, a web browser,
> > which is, along with 'less', the most common text-reading environment
> > most of us know.
> 
> I don't see how a web browser could change the order of the pages ;-)

It changes the expectation of browsing.  Plus, the browser's *own*
forward / back / up buttons follow the path of your browsing session,
not of the document hierarchy.

> > I constantly find myself surprised with where info wants to take me, and
> > perplexed at how to get back to where I wanted to be.
> 
> What's wrong with the (L)ast key? 

Discovering it.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgpu6v65UgRuT.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 10:06:38AM +, Anthony Campbell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
> On 24 Dec 2001, Gary Turner wrote:
> > On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 15:07:41 -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> > 
> > >on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 06:37:25PM +0100, Martin Emrich ([EMAIL 
> > >PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > >> Hi All !
> > >> 
> > >> When newbies ask something, they are often asked to RTFM...
> > >
> > >I consider this acceptable only IITTNTRFMTFR [1]
> > >
> > Thanks, Karsten.  When I query the list, it's because I couldn't find
> > the answer in the manual nor in the 8 or 10 books on my desk.  Worse, I
> > found the answer when I didn't need it and can't find it when I do.
> > 
> [snip]
> 
> I've often had this problem. I therefore keep a file called tips, in
> which I store useful-looking hints and answers posted here and elsewhere
> in reply to other people's queries. Even if they are not immediately
> relevant to me, they quite often  become so later.

I do something similar, it's my linux/linux mail folder (dunno why I
call it that).  Particularly insightful responses get stuffed there.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgpwDjeX0CDL8.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: What's a debian kid look like?

[Dimitri Maziuk]

* csj ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) spake thusly:
> On Monday 24 December 2001 11:19, Brian Nelson wrote:
> > > it happens quite a bunch as some of the most capable debianers are
> > > unfortunately stuck with jobs that force them to use windoze
> > > machines.
> >
> > Assuming most of us live in so-called "free" countries, we are free
> > to get another job then.  Or, lobby to change the brain-damage
> > policies at their work.  I can't imagine anyone wanting to work for a
> > company that forces their workers to use broken, dangerous software.
> 
> Quite radical. I'm just curious. I've never used Windows for Net access 
> (browsing, email, etc.) Is the One Microsoft Way really the only way? 

Yes and no.

> I've heard / read there are non-Outlook options like Eudora, Pegasus, 
> AOL, etc. Are all these really crap? 

No. The problem is not that there isn't half-decent software for
windows. The problem is that dumbed-down interfaces make it very
difficult to set the thing up in a remotely sane fashion. IOW, 
it doesn't have to be One Microsoft Way, but when it isn't, it's 
uphill struggle all the way. As a result, majority of windoze 
machines are run by morons; most non-morons give up and switch 
to $FREENIX.

Dima
-- 
I have not been able to think of any way of describing Perl to [person]
"Hello, blind man?  This is color."  -- DPM

Re: agpgart -module not loaded automatically

[mikepolniak]

On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 19:17:09 +0100
Gerald Richter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> Hello to all!
> 
> I finally got my Xpert 2000 card to work propoerly at an even higher
> frequency than the wicked Windows-driver :)).
> The only thing that bothers me now, is that the agpgart module isn't
> loaded automatically, while the r128 is...
> If I start the X-server without loading the agpgart-module before, I get
> in the XFree86.0.log :
> 
> --- (snip)
> ...
> (==) R128(0): Write-combining range (0xe000,0x200)
> (II) R128(0): [drm] loaded kernel module "r128"
> (II) R128(0): [drm] created "r128" driver at busid "PCI:1:0:0"
> (II) R128(0): [drm] added 4096 byte SAREA at 0xc8845000
> (II) R128(0): [drm] mapped SAREA 0xc8845000 to 0x40016000
> (II) R128(0): [drm] framebuffer handle = 0xe000
> (II) R128(0): [drm] added 1 reserved context for kernel
> !!!
> (WW) R128(0): [agp] AGP not available
> (WW) R128(0): [agp] AGP failed to initialize -- falling back to PCI
> mode.


Take a look at the end of dmesg and if it says:
agpgart: no supported devices found 
then you need to compile the kernel with AGP support for the chipset on your
mother board e.g. 
CONFIG_AGP_INTEL (or AMD VIA  SIS)=y 

lib-fop-java

[Jens Müller]

Does anyone know where I can get a more recent deb?

slm

[Bayrak Ebru]

Selam sana bir site oneriyorum kesin bak! ,

OYUNLAR SADECE 2.750.000 TL!

http://www.alisveris.sehri.com 
http://www.alisveris.sehri.com


iyi gunler,


Bu mesaj 
htp://www.aslan.mekani.com   üzerinden yollanmistir!
Uye olmak icin ;
http://astavilla.kolayweb.com/haber.htm
###

Re: problem with Debian woody freeze (possibly eepro 100 problem)

[Faheem Mitha]

On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, David Flatz wrote:

> Faheem Mitha said:
> > when I try to run apt (apt-get whatever) which downloads files off the
> > net, it works fine for a bit, but then comes to a grinding halt, and
> > completely freezes the machine. After this not even the power button
> > responds. The only way to restart the computer is to pull the power plug.
>
> Don't do that.. try the reset button or hold the Power button for 4
> secs, that should do it.

This was helpful. Holding the power button for 4 seconds worked.  Thanks.

 Sincerely, Faheem Mitha.

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[David Teague]

Karsten

I LIKE emacs. We were using vi as our only text editor with System V
machines in the late 80s. I found and installed Emacs, within one
week everyone on my faculty was using emacs.

That said, every other point you make here is RIGHT ON. I find info
to be arcane, inspite of its keystrokes being emacs like. 

Html information browsed with a decent TEXT mode browser that is
intutive (OK I know one man's intuitive is another's nightmare)
browser inteface. OK put the keystrokes at the bottom of the page
like Pine or Pico.

Karsten's response to Carel is omitted.


On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:44:17AM +0100, Carel Fellinger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 03:07:41PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> > ...
> > > I ***DESPISE*** info.  The pinfo alternative helps somewhat, but the
> > > basic concept still sucks.  It should be scrapped for a searchable

... YEA!

--David
David Teague, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Debian GNU/Linux Because software support is free, timely,
 useful, technically accurate, and friendly.
 (I hope this is all of the above.)

Re: kernel compile problems

[Craig Dickson]

David Gardi wrote:

> Are you using debian unstable, and using binutils?
> If so, your best bet would be to downgrade binutils to the latest
> stable. I had the same problem.

*shudder* No need to go back that far! Sid's binutils from late November
(2.11.92.0.10-4) seems to work fine. You can get it by searching at
tuxfinder.org, or from my Web-browseable (not dpkg-searchable) archive at
http://crdic.ath.cx/debian .

Craig

Re: kernel compile problems

[Craig Dickson]

Sean Johnson wrote:

> The current binutils in sid is fine for compiling 2.4.17 (latest 2.4.x
> stable kernel).

No, it isn't. This has come up a few times already just in the few days
since 2.4.17 came out. Depending on your kernel configuration, you may
still run into the same problems that people were having before. It may
well be that this crops up with 2.4.17 less than it did with previous
2.4.x kernels, but it is still there.

There's no need, however, to go as far back as Potato's binutils. The
unstable/testing binutils from late November (2.11.92.0.10-4) seems to
work; I haven't heard of any problems from anyone using that version. It
can be found via a search at tuxfinder.org; and I have it as well, in my
Sid not-quite-latest archive (use a web browser, not dpkg, to access) at
http://crdic.ath.cx/debian .

Craig

Re: mozilla 0.9.7 <-> galeon

[Colin Watson]

On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 08:04:11PM +0100, johan30 wrote:
> On Tuesday 25 December 2001 19:50, Colin Watson wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 06:21:24PM +0100, johan boeckx wrote:
> > > Possible that with the most recent update of mozilla (0.9.7) there are
> > > problems with the dependences with galeon. ?
> >
> > Yes. galeon needs to be updated (#126399, #126401).
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Is there already workaround ? (or help needed ?)

I imagine it might take until just a little after Christmas. :) Until
then, put mozilla-* on hold.

(Which reminds me. Back to the chocolates ...)

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: man v. info

[MH]

> "Imre" == Imre Vida <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


Imre> As far as info is concerned, i fully agree with Karsten.  It
Imre> doesn't work intuitively for me either; i just get lost in
Imre> the maze of links and 3 sentence pages  I hate it for
Imre> this.

It's not man versus info - some variety of documentation format should
be tolerable. And I, personally don't dislike info ...

Imre> The lack of manpages, and outdated manpages are frustrating.
Imre> And what Karsten brought up is also a nice idea: to have
Imre> examples in man pages. There are some manpages with examples
Imre> but most of them are without although they are really
Imre> helpful.

That's a good point. Having examples in manuals should be nearly
mandatory. It speeds up understanding and usability a lot. Help out
with them ... 

MH
-- 
(Dr.) Michael Hummel
mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] || [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
fprint = F24D EAC6 E3D7 372C 9122 D510 EB24 01CA 0B56 B518
id: 1024D/0B56B518 key: http://www.seitung.net/key

pgpvzHTbESNbv.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: kernel compile problems

[Sean Johnson]

On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 19:43:46 +0100
David Gardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

<--snip-->
>  >So, is there some sort of problem with kernel compiles here recently?
>  >I notice we got new gcc packages yesterday...
>  >
>  >Running: sid, up to date as of 12/25.
>  >
>  >john.
>  >
> Are you using debian unstable, and using binutils?
> If so, your best bet would be to downgrade binutils to the latest
> stable. I had the same problem.
> David.

The current binutils in sid is fine for compiling 2.4.17 (latest 2.4.x stable 
kernel).

Sean


-- 

GPG Public Key available: http://www.gutenpress.org/gpg/sean.asc



pgpW6NFcMYPSm.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: What's a debian kid look like?

[David Teague]

Age 64, retired CS Prof, PhD Math '65, 2 kids in their 30s, married
the third time, happy this time, (15 years) musician (double bass)
community orch, some attempted solo work. LOTS of cats.

Computing began in 1957 with an IBM 650 borrowed for use by students
night by Math and Stat Depts from the Dairy Herd Improvement
Association at NCState, using SOAP, ForTransIT.

I messed wtih fortran and basic over the years, then CS program
started here in '78, I moved from math. There were retread CS
courses at UTKnoxville in '82
 
Since them I have been teaching CS courses, and doing large amounts
of reading to catch up and stay up.

Dept acquired UNIX machines in 86, SysV.2 on 3b2 400s, SysV.4 in '92
on EISA 486 33's, Linux since 93: raw linux, then SLS then
Slackware, Debian since 0.93. Ought to be an expert, but I had
expert help from some friends, (Jim Bray mostly) and I spend too
much time practicing that bass and writing books, reviewing texts
and manuscripts on C++ to get really good at Linux, Debian in
particular.

Without this list and the help from you guys, I'd be less well off
here. Thanks.


--David
David Teague, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Debian GNU/Linux Because software support is free, timely,
 useful, technically accurate, and friendly.
 (I hope this is all of the above.)

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[John Hasler]

I wrote:
> What is emacs-centric about (N)ext, (P)revious, (U)p, (S)earch, and ENTER?

Karsten M. Self writes:
> How about the fact that NPU have no relationship to your _own_ path through
> the documentation tree...

What does that have to do with my question?

> ...as they would in, say, a web browser, which is, along with 'less', the
> most common text-reading environment most of us know.

I thought you were a man page enthusiast.  Now you want html documentation?
IMHO html is a lousy choice.

Michael Mauch writes:
> What's wrong with the (L)ast key? And then, of course, you have the
> (S)earch key and most of the times an (I)ndex.

And, of course, there is 'info info' for those who actually want to learn
to use info.
-- 
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI

ssh and X

[Jens Müller]

Since upgrading to Woody, X forwarding over ssh does not work any
longer, which is a bad thing, since I cannot run X programs as
super-user now.

Does anyone know what has changed?

Re: mozilla 0.9.7 <-> galeon

[johan30]

On Tuesday 25 December 2001 19:50, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 06:21:24PM +0100, johan boeckx wrote:
> > Possible that with the most recent update of mozilla (0.9.7) there are
> > problems with the dependences with galeon. ?
>
> Yes. galeon needs to be updated (#126399, #126401).


Thanks,

Is there already workaround ? (or help needed ?)

Grtz,
Johan

Re: boot floppy doesn't work

[David Teague]

Alvin

I have used dd in addtion to the cp command in my message. I always
rdev a kernel on floppy to make it know where root is. Swap too,
thought I think swap is set on boot up.

I have used sys linux, but that is SLOOO booting. Grub
is hard for me because it uses strange disk numbering. I can't
seem to get it quite right.
 
Lilo == I can just write a boot sector to the first track of a
floppy, it reaches into the HD and finds the kernel which it boots.

I think Grub is supposed to do that too. I have had a little success
wtih Grub, prefer to use LILO.

Why won't the dd copy of kernel to floppy work? I'll try again,
being particularly careful of all details.

--david

On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Alvin Oga wrote:

> 
> hi ya david
> 
> i don't know if the cp trick will work or not..
> or if oyu figured out your dd problems..
> ( i havent tried "cp" )
> 
> to make a bootable floppy..
>   dd if=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.x of=/dev/fd0 bs=1024
> 
>   if you didnt compile that kernel yourself or if / is different
>   than where it expects it .. you tell it where / is
>   rdev /dev/fd0 /dev/hda1
> 
>   - the above and the way you did your dd should always work..
>   if not... try a different floppy ... you have to have a 100%
>   clean floppy ( no bad tracks/sectors )
> 
> you can also use lilo and grub and syslinux to make boot floppies
> ( a better boot floppy... esp if you need to fix the disks ...
> 
> have fun booting..
> alvin
> 
> 
> On Sun, 23 Dec 2001, David Teague wrote:
> 
> > Hi
> > 
> > I tried to use the script mkboot that (if run as user, makes a boot
> > disk by dd the kernel to a floppy and then running rdev on the
> > floppy.) Boot floppy made that way esn't work.
> > 
> > If I do it barehanded
> >   cp kernel /dev/fd0 
> > then 
> >   rdev 
> > to set the root and swap doesn't work either.
> > 
> > Please ask me questions if you need more information. I will supply
> > data you ask for. 
> > 
> > I'm runing Woody, on 350MHz AMD, 390MB RAM. what else do you
> > need? Kernel is the Woody default 2.4 kernel. 
> > 
> > 
> > I'd like a boot floppy that has a kernel on the floppy. Right now
> > I'm using a floppy that has a Lilo track. 
> 
> 

--David
David Teague, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Debian GNU/Linux Because software support is free, timely,
 useful, technically accurate, and friendly.
 (I hope this is all of the above.)

Re: man v. info

[Colin Watson]

On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 05:24:26PM +0100, Imre Vida wrote:
> The lack of manpages, and outdated manpages are frustrating.  
> And what Karsten brought up is also a nice idea:
> to have examples in man pages. There are some manpages with examples 
> but most of them are without although they are really helpful.
> 
> It would be nice to know how other people think about this
> and if there is sufficient interest to also talk about what 
> should/could be done to change this.

Come up with examples and send patches. That'll achieve results much
faster than anything else I can think of.

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: mozilla 0.9.7 <-> galeon

[Colin Watson]

On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 06:21:24PM +0100, johan boeckx wrote:
> Possible that with the most recent update of mozilla (0.9.7) there are 
> problems with the dependences with galeon. ?

Yes. galeon needs to be updated (#126399, #126401).

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: kernel compile problems

[David Gardi]

John S. J. Anderson wrote:

>Greetings --
>
>I've been setting up a new Athlon system (thanks Santa!), and I've
>been having some kernel compile issues (linker bombing out, mainly).
>
>I was chalking it up to some Athlon quirk (power supply, cooling,
>etc.), but just on the off chance I tried to re-compile a kernel on my
>old Celeron-based system -- and I got the same *sort* of error (not
>the exact same error, but the same sort of linker error).
>
>So, is there some sort of problem with kernel compiles here recently?
>I notice we got new gcc packages yesterday...
>
>Running: sid, up to date as of 12/25.
>
>john.
>
Are you using debian unstable, and using binutils?
If so, your best bet would be to downgrade binutils to the latest
stable. I had the same problem.
David.

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Michael Mauch]

Karsten M. Self schrieb:

> on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:57:27PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> wrote:
> > dman writes:
> > > Personally it is the emacs-centric interface.
> > 
> > What is emacs-centric about (N)ext, (P)revious, (U)p, (S)earch, and ENTER?
> 
> How about the fact that NPU have no relationship to your _own_ path
> through the documentation tree (as they would in, say, a web browser,
> which is, along with 'less', the most common text-reading environment
> most of us know.

I don't see how a web browser could change the order of the pages ;-)
 
> I constantly find myself surprised with where info wants to take me, and
> perplexed at how to get back to where I wanted to be.

What's wrong with the (L)ast key? And then, of course, you have the
(S)earch key and most of the times an (I)ndex.

Regards...
Michael

Re: cdrecord problems

[Michael Mauch]

Patrik Modesto wrote:

> Dec 18 19:18:16 mody kernel: hdd: status error: status=0x58 { DriveReady
> SeekComplete DataRequest }
> Dec 18 19:18:16 mody kernel: hdd: drive not ready for command
> Dec 18 19:18:16 mody kernel: hdd: status error: status=0x58 { DriveReady
> SeekComplete DataRequest }
> Dec 18 19:18:16 mody kernel: hdd: drive not ready for command
> Dec 18 19:18:16 mody kernel: hdd: status error: status=0x58 { DriveReady
> SeekComplete DataRequest }
> Dec 18 19:18:16 mody kernel: hdd: drive not ready for command
> Dec 18 19:18:16 mody kernel: hdd: status error: status=0x58 { DriveReady
> SeekComplete DataRequest }
> Dec 18 19:18:16 mody kernel: hdd: DMA disabled

Try disabling DMA on hdd ("hdparm -d0 /dev/hdd" works even if you have
SCSI emulation enabled). If that doesn't help, try a less ancient
version of cdrecord ()
- compiling it on your machine with _your_ kernel can't be wrong.

Regards...
Michael

cheap Debian books at Ebay

[Guenter Bechly]

Dear Debian friends,

maybe you remember me as an active former Debian developer who left the
project some months ago. I now sell all my Debian and Linux literature on
Ebay and therefore would like to inform you about the concerning links.
These books and journals are certainly very valuable for many Debian users
and developers, and represent an original sales price of more than 500,-
EURO. Since I offer each item for a start price of only 1,- EURO (or 1,- $),
I hope that this information is sufficiently on-topic and interesting to be
not considered as spam on this list.

Happy New Year and happy linuxing,
Guenter Bechly

--

Michael Bellomo (2000) "Debian GNU/Linux for Dummies", IDG Books, 324 pages
and 2 CDs, paperback. Original price (Germany) was 80,27 DM! Very good
condition.
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400499365

Mario Camou & John Goerzen & Aaron van Couwenberghe (2000) "Debian GNU/Linux
2.1 Unleashed", SAMS, 1119 pages (!) and 1 CD, paperback. Original price
(Germany) was 122,10 DM! Very good condition.
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400501838

Bill McCarty (1999) "Learning Debian GNU/Linux", O'Reilly, 343 pages and 1
CD, paperback. Original price (Germany) was 75,- DM! Very good condition.
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400509336

John Goerzen & Ossama Othman (1999) "Debian GNU/Linux - Guide to
Installation and Usage", New Riders, 158 pages and 1 CD, paperback. Original
price (Germany) was 78,58 DM! Very good condition.
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400509860

Thomas Down (1999) "Installing Debian GNU/Linux", SAMS, 197 pages and 1 CD,
paperback. Original price (Germany) was 54,95 DM! Very good condition. You
also get the printed edition of the original "Debian Installation Guide" as
free additional item.
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400510746


I also offer the following two German Debian books:

Peter H. Ganten (2000) "Debian GNU/Linux", Springer, 792 pages; paperback;
good condition. Original price 79,90 DM. This is THE German Debian handbook
and one of the best German Linux books at all (besides Kofler)!
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400497602

Frank Ronneburg (2001) "Debian GNU/Linux Anwenderhandbuch", Addison-Wesley +
Lehmanns, 600 pages, hardcover. Original price 49,90 DM. Very good
condition.
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400498239


Finally, I offer various other Linux books and Journals, such as:

Two complete year-volumes of "Linux Journal" from issue Jan./97 to Dec./98,
including all special issues (e.g. Buyer's Guide), plus first three issues
of 1999. Totally 31 issues in very good condition.
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400490134

44 issues of the German "Linux Magazin" from issue 01/1998 to issue 08/2001,
as well as the three special issues "Best of Vol. 1, 2, 3" that include all
articles of volume 1997. The original price for all these journals was about
480,- DM! All journals are in very good condition!
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400489223

Nikolaus Schlueter (1997) "Der Gcc-Compiler - Ueberblick und Bedienung",
bhv, 199 pages. The German handbook for the Handbuch GNU Compiler. Original
price 59,80 DM. Very good condition.
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400487709

agpgart -module not loaded automatically

[Gerald Richter]

Hello to all!

I finally got my Xpert 2000 card to work propoerly at an even higher
frequency than the wicked Windows-driver :)).
The only thing that bothers me now, is that the agpgart module isn't
loaded automatically, while the r128 is...
If I start the X-server without loading the agpgart-module before, I get
in the XFree86.0.log :

--- (snip)
...
(==) R128(0): Write-combining range (0xe000,0x200)
(II) R128(0): [drm] loaded kernel module "r128"
(II) R128(0): [drm] created "r128" driver at busid "PCI:1:0:0"
(II) R128(0): [drm] added 4096 byte SAREA at 0xc8845000
(II) R128(0): [drm] mapped SAREA 0xc8845000 to 0x40016000
(II) R128(0): [drm] framebuffer handle = 0xe000
(II) R128(0): [drm] added 1 reserved context for kernel
!!!
(WW) R128(0): [agp] AGP not available
(WW) R128(0): [agp] AGP failed to initialize -- falling back to PCI
mode.
(WW) R128(0): [agp] Make sure you have the agpgart kernel module loaded.
!!!
(II) R128(0): [pci] 8192 kB allocated with handle 0xca848000
(II) R128(0): [pci] ring handle = 0xca848000
(II) R128(0): [pci] Ring mapped at 0x4221b000
(II) R128(0): [pci] Ring contents 0x
(II) R128(0): [pci] ring read ptr handle = 0xca949000
(II) R128(0): [pci] Ring read ptr mapped at 0x40017000
(II) R128(0): [pci] Ring read ptr contents 0x
(II) R128(0): [pci] vertex/indirect buffers handle = 0xca94a000
...
--- (snip)

I'm not in the position to need the highest possible output of FPS
at the moment, but like it, when everything starts up in optimal
config...

SO: how do I cause the module to be loaded on demand automatically ?
-that means: before the r128.o... -by what is the loading of that
triggered?

thanks for pointers,
Gerald.

kernel compile problems

[John S. J. Anderson]

Greetings --

I've been setting up a new Athlon system (thanks Santa!), and I've
been having some kernel compile issues (linker bombing out, mainly).

I was chalking it up to some Athlon quirk (power supply, cooling,
etc.), but just on the off chance I tried to re-compile a kernel on my
old Celeron-based system -- and I got the same *sort* of error (not
the exact same error, but the same sort of linker error).

So, is there some sort of problem with kernel compiles here recently?
I notice we got new gcc packages yesterday...

Running: sid, up to date as of 12/25. 

john.
-- 
genehack.org * weblog == ( bioinfo / linux / opinion / stuff ) * daily *

Avoid multiple exits from loops.
- The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plaugher)

Re: What's a debian kid look like?

[Guy Geens]

I'm a 29-year old `kid', living in Belgium. I have a degree in
engineering, but I'm now employed as an IT consultant. (Meaning: I
write programs for use by large corporations.)

I've been into computing since 1983, when my uncle bought me a ZX
Spectrum. Later, I switched to an Atari ST, and finally ended up
running Linux. I used Slackware for a while, but recently, I converted
all my systems to Debian.

-- 
G. ``Iggy'' Geens - ICQ: #64109250
Home: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Work: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
WWW: http://users.pandora.be/guy.geens/
`I want quality, not quantity. But I want lots of it!'

Re: Sending faxes with efax as a normal user

[Guy Geens]

> "Neilen" == Neilen Marais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Neilen> The permissions on /var/lock are:

Neilen> drwxr-xr-t 3 root root 1024 Dec 21 17:18 /var/lock/

Neilen> so, users should not be allowed to write. I assume its this
Neilen> way for a reason.

On my system, I have this:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/home$ ls -ld /var/lock
drwxrwxrwt5 root root  120 Dec 25 18:20 /var/lock

This allows everyone to create lockfiles, but a user may only delete
files owned by themselves.

AFAIK, this is the default setting. I don't know why your system is
different.

-- 
G. ``Iggy'' Geens - ICQ: #64109250
Home: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Work: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
WWW: http://users.pandora.be/guy.geens/
`I want quality, not quantity. But I want lots of it!'

mozilla 0.9.7 <-> galeon

[johan boeckx]

Possible that with the most recent update of mozilla (0.9.7) there are 
problems with the dependences with galeon. ?

thx,
Johan Boeckx

Debian books

[Dr . Günter Bechly]

Dear Debian friends,

maybe you remember me as an active former Debian developer who left the
project some months ago. I now sell all my Debian and Linux literature
on Ebay and therefore would like to inform you about the concerning
links. These books and journals are certainly very valuable for many
Debian users and developers, and represent an original sales price of
more than 500,- EURO. Since I offer each item for a start price of only
1,- EURO (or 1,- $), I hope that this information is sufficiently
on-topic and interesting to be not considered as spam on this list.

Happy New Year and happy linuxing,
Guenter Bechly 

--

Michael Bellomo (2000) "Debian GNU/Linux for Dummies", IDG Books, 324
pages and 2 CDs, paperback. Original price (Germany) was 80,27 DM! Very
good condition. 
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400499365

Mario Camou & John Goerzen & Aaron van Couwenberghe (2000) "Debian
GNU/Linux 2.1 Unleashed", SAMS, 1119 pages (!) and 1 CD, paperback.
Original price (Germany) was 122,10 DM! Very good condition. 
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400501838

Bill McCarty (1999) "Learning Debian GNU/Linux", O'Reilly, 343 pages and
1 CD, paperback. Original price (Germany) was 75,- DM! Very good
condition.
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400509336

John Goerzen & Ossama Othman (1999) "Debian GNU/Linux - Guide to
Installation and Usage", New Riders, 158 pages and 1 CD, paperback.
Original price (Germany) was 78,58 DM! Very good condition. 
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400509860

Thomas Down (1999) "Installing Debian GNU/Linux", SAMS, 197 pages and 1
CD, paperback. Original price (Germany) was 54,95 DM! Very good
condition. You also get the printed edition of the original "Debian
Installation Guide" as free additional item. 
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400510746


I also offer the following two German Debian books:

Peter H. Ganten (2000) "Debian GNU/Linux", Springer, 792 pages;
paperback; good condition. Original price 79,90 DM. This is THE German
Debian handbook and one of the best German Linux books at all (besides
Kofler)! 
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400497602

Frank Ronneburg (2001) "Debian GNU/Linux Anwenderhandbuch",
Addison-Wesley + Lehmanns, 600 pages, hardcover. Original price 49,90
DM. Very good condition. 
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400498239


Finally, I offer various other Linux books and Journals, such as:

Two complete year-volumes of "Linux Journal" from issue Jan./97 to
Dec./98, including all special issues (e.g. Buyer's Guide), plus first
three issues of 1999. Totally 31 issues in very good condition. 
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400490134

44 issues of the German "Linux Magazin" from issue 01/1998 to issue
08/2001, as well as the three special issues "Best of Vol. 1, 2, 3" that
include all articles of volume 1997. The original price for all these
journals was about 480,- DM! All journals are in very good condition! 
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400489223

Nikolaus Schlueter (1997) "Der Gcc-Compiler - Ueberblick und Bedienung",
bhv, 199 pages. The German handbook for the Handbuch GNU Compiler.
Original price 59,80 DM. Very good condition. 
http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1400487709

Re: Plip problems: do I need NFS server?

[Michael Heldebrant]

On Tue, 2001-12-25 at 05:24, Anthony Campbell wrote:
> On 24 Dec 2001, Michael Heldebrant wrote:
> > On Mon, 2001-12-24 at 03:36, Anthony Campbell wrote:
> > > I'm trying to set up plip on my desktop and laptop. Plip now runs, but
> > > I'm not sure how to continue.
> > > 
> > > I'm working through the NFS Howto, with moderate success only. Anything
> > > else I should be reading?
> > > 
> > > Question: is it essential to have a NFS server running on both machines
> > > or is portmap enough? If it is essential, I have a problem, because both
> > > nfs-kernel-server and nfs-user-server fail to install properly on my
> > > laptop.
> > 
> > Describe moderate success?
> > 
> > In lieu of that information I'll try to give a comprehensive list of
> > things:
> > 
> 
> Thank you; very helpful. I think you've answered the rather unformed
> questions I asked.
> 
> > Both server and client are going to need the nfs-common package.
> > 
> 
> Got that.
> 
> > Server needs in addition to nfs-common, the nfs-kernel-server or the
> > userspace server.
> > 
> 
> Got that on my desktop; neither will install properly on my laptop, for
> some reason, but the desktop can presumably act as server and allow
> transfer in both directions?


That's troubling.  What are the error messages when you try and install
the packages on the laptop?

The server allows bidirectional transfer to and from the mount. 
Assuming you allow write on the server AND mount with write access on
the client you can write.  Of course then you're going to need to worry
about setting the things for executibles and root_squashing.  But lets
get you up and running before we confuse you ;>.
 
> > Server's /etc/exports file is going to need the listing of filesystems
> > or directories to export prefereably with the ip address of the client
> > over the plip link instead of world access.  Then exportfs -a -v should
> > tell you some information about exporting.
> > 
> > The client needs nfs filesystem support in the kernel.  Make the
> > mountpoint for the nfs drive on the client.  mount server:/mountpoint
> > /mountpoint should do just fine unless you're going to need adjust
> > parameters for speed or performance over the PLIP link.  I've been quite
> > happy with the defaults over switched ethernet networks, YMMV.  If you
> > get a denial from the server it's going to take some work with the
> > /etc/exports file on the server to get it working.
> > 
> 
> This explains what I was unclear about; I'll try it out.

Let the list know if you need more help.

--mike

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Brian Nelson]

"Karsten M. Self"  writes:

>   - It's (largely) bound to a specific viewer.  Which, if you don't use
> emacs, isn't particularly usable, and is about as intuitive
> as...well, emacs.  This has changed as additional viewers are
> avilable (e.g.:  pinfo -- based on lynx...but, of course, I don't
> care for lynx's keybindings, and use w3m instead)

Funny, I prefer w3m over links and lynx because of its emacs-like key
bindings.  :)

-- 
Brian Nelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bignachos.com

man v. info

[Imre Vida]

hi,

i just read the (sub)thread above on man v. info
and i thought it is much more important than 
to have it hidden in there.  So i thought i try 
to pick it up again.

The major sources of help/information for me are
the apropos, the -h/--help options and the man pages.
These are fast and efficient means to find what i want
most of the time.

As far as info is concerned, i fully agree with Karsten.  
It doesn't work intuitively for me either; i just get 
lost in the maze of links and 3 sentence pages
I hate it for this.

The lack of manpages, and outdated manpages are frustrating.  
And what Karsten brought up is also a nice idea:
to have examples in man pages. There are some manpages with examples 
but most of them are without although they are really helpful.

It would be nice to know how other people think about this
and if there is sufficient interest to also talk about what 
should/could be done to change this.


Best,

imre

Dial-up

[chidambaram_ram]

Syslog reads as follows :
pppd 2.3.11 started by root.
Can't get terminal parameters: Input/output error.
Connect script failed.
How do you correct these errors, pl.
Ramachandran

Re: Anyone know what has happened to uk.debian.org

[Anthony Campbell]

On 24 Dec 2001, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 02:04:06PM +, David Goodenough wrote:
> > It seems to have vanished.  The FTP and HTTP servers both seem to be
> > down.  Is this planned downtime or just a feature of the Christmas
> > break?
> 
> Looks like it's back now. That machine has been a bit flaky for a long
> time (disk subsystem problems compounded occasionally by trying to write
> CDs, if I remember correctly).
> 
> -- 
> Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 

For this reason I often use ftp.de.debian.org, which seems more
reliable.

Anthony


-- 
Anthony Campbell - running Linux GNU/Debian (Windows-free zone)
For an electronic book (The Assassins of Alamut), skeptical 
essays, and over 150 book reviews, go to: http://www.acampbell.org.uk/

Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our
obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come
from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. [Carl Sagan]

Re: Move from RedHat to Debian

[Anthony Campbell]

On 24 Dec 2001, Rodney D. Myers wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 25-Dec-2001 Petre Daniel wrote:
> 
> I'll probably try a "spare" machine using debian, and see how that goes.
> 
> Thanks
> 

A good way to do it. I had some spare room on my disk and ran the two in
parallel for a time, before finally deleting Redhat. This was several
years ago; IMO there is no real contest between the two, especially when
it comes to upgrading. I agree with others that the difficulty of
installing Debian is often exaggerated. If you mostly choose the
defaults throughout the installation process you usually end up with a
usable system, which you can then modify at your leisure.

Anthony


-- 
Anthony Campbell - running Linux GNU/Debian (Windows-free zone)
For an electronic book (The Assassins of Alamut), skeptical 
essays, and over 150 book reviews, go to: http://www.acampbell.org.uk/

Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our
obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come
from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. [Carl Sagan]

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Anthony Campbell]

On 24 Dec 2001, Gary Turner wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 15:07:41 -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> 
> >on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 06:37:25PM +0100, Martin Emrich ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> >wrote:
> >> Hi All !
> >> 
> >> When newbies ask something, they are often asked to RTFM...
> >
> >I consider this acceptable only IITTNTRFMTFR [1]
> >
> Thanks, Karsten.  When I query the list, it's because I couldn't find
> the answer in the manual nor in the 8 or 10 books on my desk.  Worse, I
> found the answer when I didn't need it and can't find it when I do.
> 
[snip]

I've often had this problem. I therefore keep a file called tips, in
which I store useful-looking hints and answers posted here and elsewhere
in reply to other people's queries. Even if they are not immediately
relevant to me, they quite often  become so later.


Anthony
-- 
Anthony Campbell - running Linux GNU/Debian (Windows-free zone)
For an electronic book (The Assassins of Alamut), skeptical 
essays, and over 150 book reviews, go to: http://www.acampbell.org.uk/

Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our
obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come
from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. [Carl Sagan]

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Colin Watson]

On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:21:55AM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 03:54:36AM -0200, Christoph Simon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> wrote:
> > On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:38:49 -0800
> > "Karsten M. Self"  wrote:
> > > ...followed by dire warnings that the manpage may not be updated,
> > > etc., etc.  At which point the pitiless reader turns to the info
> > > document...which in many cases is a copy of the same manpage (now
> > > presented in an unfamiliar document viewer).  Houston, we've got a
> > > problem.
> > 
> > This is the choice of debian maintainers.
> 
> Looks to me more like someone dropped the ball.  "Gee...GNU doesn't do
> man pages, so we'll note that in the man page, but I don't feel like
> writing an info page".

No, usually what's happened in these cases is that the man page is in
the main package while the info pages are in a separate -doc package
which you haven't got installed. When you type info, it can't find the
real info page, so it reverts to its neutered "try to view man pages"
mode instead.

(Usual disclaimer: I'm not a fan of info either. Maybe I should turn
man-db into a GNU package, just for the sheer irony value? :))

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Mail clients & Lock-in (was Re: What's a debian kid look like?)

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 11:53:42AM +, Phillip Deackes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
> On 24 Dec 2001 17:44:44 -0500
> 
> > Erik Steffl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > No, but when a business chooses degenerate mail and forces everyone to
> > use it, I'd be pretty suspicious of high-level idiocy within the
> > business.
> 
> It is about *choice* not just your choice but that of others working in
> the company too. Imagine if each employee had a different opinion - there
> are a plethora of different OSs and MUAs out there - and if each employee
> was this dogmatic. 

Well...listen to yourself.

We're all shooting mail back and forth to each other, clients I've seen
include mutt, Evolution, MS Outlook, Mozilla, Eudoroa Pro, mh, and
others.  The client matters far less than the interchange format and
transmission standards.  Similarly, if you're dealing with text, HTML,
or SGML, your editor doesn't matter to the reader.

With a solid, implemented, calendaring standard, it really wouldn't
matter what clients users used.

Microsoft strives to take away this choice.  The classic text on the
topic is Varian & Shapiro, _Information Rules_
(http://www.inforules.com/).  The concept is called lock-in.  The issues
aren't dissimilar to those I've discussed regarding TexInfo.

> I am ICT Coordinator in a school, so I am in a position where I could
> move from Windows NT4/Windows 98 to a Linux solution, but I must
> consider the opinions, however misguided, of other users in the
> school. Democracy is like that. The majority opinion is in a great
> many cases not the best opinion.

The problem is the all-or-nothing nature of the change.

By moving MS Exchange out from under your communications system, you'd
liberate yourself of MSFT lock-in.  Users familiar with MS Outlook could
continue using it, or replace it with any of a wide range of legacy MS
Windows or GNU/Linux / Unix clients.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgpN3xYUL5xH1.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:52:46AM -0800, Erik Steffl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> "Karsten M. Self" wrote:
> > 
> > on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 03:54:36AM -0200, Christoph Simon ([EMAIL 
> > PROTECTED]) wrote:
> ...
> > > One of the declared aims of info is to provide a frame to write
> > > introductions or tutorials which wouldn't fit well into a man page,
> > > because that is limited to a reference manual.
> > 
> > This is a supplemental function.  This documentation shouldn't attempt
> > to replace something it can't:  a basic usage reference.
> 
> exactly. IMO info is a big failure, it tries to replace something it
> cannot replace by it s definition (it clearly has different purpose
> than the manpage) and info reader sucks big time according to opinion
> of fairly huge number of people. yes, there are other ways to read
> info pages but all references are alays 'run info'. the default reader
> should be something usable.
> 
> info as such might be useful, man page clearly cannot cover ALL the
> documentation needs. why didn't they think of an easy way to create a
> man page from info? a sort of 'executive summary'?

Bingo.

I've discussed this issue in the past with Brad Kuhn (haven't quite
worked up to bringing it up with Stallman), and I copied Brad on my
entry on this thread.

There is a man-like summary which can be extracted from the Info format
and turned into something remotely resembling a man page, somewhat in
the way a cat might be said to resemble a horse:  neither can operate a
can opener.

There are worse legacy standards stuck within computer concepts than the
man page.  I suspect one of the attractions of Info is that it is
directly translateable into book formats, which themselves provide
revenues to the FSF.  Again, it would seem that adopting DocBook would
further this aim, allow inclusion of a manpage (hey, it's another
reference section within the document).

Anyhow, I suspect I've made my views fairly clear ;-)

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
We freed Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html


pgplRhJWpOW0U.pgp
Description: PGP signature

[OT]Tcp wrappers

[irvine . russell]

Hello all

I have 2 questions that relate to tcp 
wrappers.

1) How exactly are the files hosts.allow 
and hosts.deny read.

>From what I have read, it works as follows:

  hosts.allow is read first. 
  The first rule that applies to the host 
  trying to make a connection is applied.
  If no rule that applies is found, then
  hosts.deny is read.

  In hosts.deny the first rule that applies
  to the connecting host is applied. If no
  rule is found in hosts.deny then the 
  connection is allowed.

I was wondering because a friend wanted to
deny a host by putting an entry for that host
in hosts.deny like the following:

  /etc/hosts.deny
  ALL: ALL
  sendmail:  irritating.spammer.ru
  

But then he had a hosts.allow file like the 
following:
  /etc/hosts.allow
  
  sendmail: ALL
  

His logic was that hosts.deny would deny
irritating.spammer.ru and hosts.allow would
allow all other hosts.

I was wondering 

  a) whether the sendmail entry in hosts.deny
 is of any use, and
  b) doesn't the hosts.allow entry allow the domain 
 irritating.spammer.ru anyway?

2) My second shorter question was, how can one
know if a program has been compiled with the
libwrap library.

Or at least how would I know if exim has been
compiled with libwrap. I had read on the list
that exim was compiled with libwrap but when 
I did ldd /usr/sbin/exim I see no mention of
libwrap. I use potato and exim version 3.12..

thanx in advance and a Very Merry Christmas
to everyone celebrating X-mas.

t:Irvine

Re: What's a debian kid look like?

[lee]

> Quite radical. I'm just curious. I've never used Windows for Net access
> (browsing, email, etc.) Is the One Microsoft Way really the only way?
> I've heard / read there are non-Outlook options like Eudora, Pegasus,
> AOL, etc. Are all these really crap? I didn't see the Microsfot logo in
> the Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan movie.


Eudora is quite nice actually..I use it when I'm there and like it very 
much..the light version that is :-)

Lee

Re: What's a debian kid look like?

[Phillip Deackes]

On 24 Dec 2001 17:44:44 -0500

> Erik Steffl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> No, but when a business chooses degenerate mail and forces everyone to
> use it, I'd be pretty suspicious of high-level idiocy within the
> business.

It is about *choice* not just your choice but that of others working in
the company too. Imagine if each employee had a different opinion - there
are a plethora of different OSs and MUAs out there - and if each employee
was this dogmatic. I am ICT Coordinator in a school, so I am in a position
where I could move from Windows NT4/Windows 98 to a Linux solution, but I
must consider the opinions, however misguided, of other users in the
school. Democracy is like that. The majority opinion is in a great many
cases not the best opinion.

Are you like this when your company offers you a company car? Would you
resign because it was not the car you would have preferred?

-- 
Phillip Deackes
Using Debian Linux

/"\   
\ /   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
 XAGAINST HTML MAIL AND NEWS
/ \ 

Re: Making installation cd from cached files

[Imre Vida]

sorry for the late response

apt-move is a nice tool
but i usually just use the rather simple approach you asked about
take the files in the /var/cache/apt/archives
and transfer them to the other computers
(i mean, transfer them to  /var/cache/apt/archives on the target PC)

> but what file is the database you refer to?
"package index files" according to the manual
as i mentioned   apt-get update (or dselect Update when set up for apt)
will create/update this database and the files are in:
/var/lib/apt/lists
storage area for state information for each package
resource specified in sources.list(5)


> is what has hung me up on this method.
> Are you referring to one of the .bin 
> files in /var/cache/apt 
these are the packages not the database


> Is there  a special directory structure
> used on the cd?
there is no special structure in this dir
(except for the partial dir which i skip)
so no special structure on the CD either

> When I have tried using a cd made from the
> cache, I get a message that there 
> is no package list and I don't know what
> list I would include or where it 
> should be included.


i have on both machinces the same configuration of apt
(/etc/apt/sources.list) and then make an
'apt-get update'
so that the target machine has the corresponding list of packages
then burn the CD/copy the files
and then don't make a nother 'update' (well, at least not until you make
a new copy of the archive dir) otherwise the database info may be
ahead of the archive

and then you can use 'apt-get install *' (or deselect or ..)
to install any of the packages you have in your archive
even without network connection


imre

Re: Plip problems: do I need NFS server?

[Anthony Campbell]

On 24 Dec 2001, Michael Heldebrant wrote:
> On Mon, 2001-12-24 at 03:36, Anthony Campbell wrote:
> > I'm trying to set up plip on my desktop and laptop. Plip now runs, but
> > I'm not sure how to continue.
> > 
> > I'm working through the NFS Howto, with moderate success only. Anything
> > else I should be reading?
> > 
> > Question: is it essential to have a NFS server running on both machines
> > or is portmap enough? If it is essential, I have a problem, because both
> > nfs-kernel-server and nfs-user-server fail to install properly on my
> > laptop.
> 
> Describe moderate success?
> 
> In lieu of that information I'll try to give a comprehensive list of
> things:
> 

Thank you; very helpful. I think you've answered the rather unformed
questions I asked.

> Both server and client are going to need the nfs-common package.
> 

Got that.

> Server needs in addition to nfs-common, the nfs-kernel-server or the
> userspace server.
> 

Got that on my desktop; neither will install properly on my laptop, for
some reason, but the desktop can presumably act as server and allow
transfer in both directions?

> Server's /etc/exports file is going to need the listing of filesystems
> or directories to export prefereably with the ip address of the client
> over the plip link instead of world access.  Then exportfs -a -v should
> tell you some information about exporting.
> 
> The client needs nfs filesystem support in the kernel.  Make the
> mountpoint for the nfs drive on the client.  mount server:/mountpoint
> /mountpoint should do just fine unless you're going to need adjust
> parameters for speed or performance over the PLIP link.  I've been quite
> happy with the defaults over switched ethernet networks, YMMV.  If you
> get a denial from the server it's going to take some work with the
> /etc/exports file on the server to get it working.
> 

This explains what I was unclear about; I'll try it out.

Anthony

-- 
Anthony Campbell - running Linux GNU/Debian (Windows-free zone)
For an electronic book (The Assassins of Alamut), skeptical 
essays, and over 150 book reviews, go to: http://www.acampbell.org.uk/

Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our
obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come
from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. [Carl Sagan]

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Erik Steffl]

"Karsten M. Self" wrote:
> 
> on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 03:54:36AM -0200, Christoph Simon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> wrote:
...
> > One of the declared aims of info is to provide a frame to write
> > introductions or tutorials which wouldn't fit well into a man page,
> > because that is limited to a reference manual.
> 
> This is a supplemental function.  This documentation shouldn't attempt
> to replace something it can't:  a basic usage reference.

  exactly. IMO info is a big failure, it tries to replace something it
cannot replace by it s definition (it clearly has different purpose than
the manpage) and info reader sucks big time according to opinion of
fairly huge number of people. yes, there are other ways to read info
pages but all references are alays 'run info'. the default reader should
be something usable.

  info as such might be useful, man page clearly cannot cover ALL the
documentation needs. why didn't they think of an easy way to create a
man page from info? a sort of 'executive summary'?

erik

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 03:54:36AM -0200, Christoph Simon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:38:49 -0800
> "Karsten M. Self"  wrote:
> 
> >   - It attempts to replace, not augment, an existing, established,
> > viable, useful, and effective standard.  This is almost always a bad
> > idea.  The far better tack:  provided augmented functionality.  If
> > your solution is compelling enough, people will transition.
> 
> Right, but doesn't apply here. 

Wrong.

If your explicit policy is "deprecate manpages in favor of info pages",
you're replacing functionality.  I've documented this from the gcc
manpage, it's a typical example.

GNU Info is used to replace manpages.  It leaves packages with
incomplete, outdated, or missing man pages.  This is a Bad Thing®.

> >   - It's (largely) bound to a specific viewer.  Which, if you don't use

<...>

> Inconsequent. Man requires groff and a pager. 

A pager is a non-specific reader.

> I can't read SGML or XML (but hate them), specially when created by
> some `intelligent tool' with no human digestable linebreaks. 

I'm not talking about the composition tools, I'm talking about the
_viewing_ tools.  Non sequitur.

<...>

> Man pages stop being useful when they get too long. Try locating a
> short word in man bash. 

/\

Or, for a context search:

man bash | col | grep -w at

...returns 81 lines, which can then be looked at fairly readily or
searched with additional context:

/character at point



> Also, IMHO, I don't think a slash for searching forward and a question
> mark for back is intuitive, at least not more than Ctrl-S (search)
> Ctrl-R (reverse search). 

It's not intuitive, that's somewhat my point.  But it *is* learned,
particularly if you're using more/less and/or a vi clone frequently, or
other tools (e.g.:  w3m) which use vi keys.

As it happens, info allows use of vi keys (didn't know this until
today), and the C-s and C-r keys are among the emacs bindings I do
recall more readily.  FWIW, I use emacs mode for command line editing in
bash.  I'm not fully locked into one mode of thinking.  _But_, what I
_don't_ know are multi-line and multi-buffer navigation keystrokes,
which are necessary in info.

The point isn't which mode is "more intuitive", it's whether or not the
commonly used tools allow the option to select an environment that's
comfortable to the user.  Info perforce constrains this choice.  It
doesn't matter if you prefer searching with '/', with C-s, or by
touching your tongue to your nose, Info restricts the tools available
to you.



> >   - It fragments the documentation effort.  GNU favors info.  Debian
> > favors manpages (I've written on this in the past, references
> > supporting both claims are available).
> 
> Probably true, but people still can choose, unless they get
> consistently bashed for it.

You can only choose if you're writing the documentation on your system.

As it is, Debian prefers manpages:

 Debian Policy, 13.1, Manual Pages:

 Each program, utility, and function should have an associated manpage
 included in the same package.  It is suggested that all configuration
 files also have a manual page included as well.

 <...>

 Even though the GNU Project do not in general consider the lack of
 a manpage to be a bug, we do.


> >   - Info and man serve different functions.  Man is meant to be a quick

> Both, man and info have a learning curve. 

***ACCESSING*** a man page -- the task of opening and navigating the
document itself -- doesn't have a _separate_ learning process.
Accessing an info page does.

_Understanding_ a man page is admittedly an art.  Ditto an Info page.
Info throws two hurdles at the user, man only one.



> One of the declared aims of info is to provide a frame to write
> introductions or tutorials which wouldn't fit well into a man page,
> because that is limited to a reference manual. 

This is a supplemental function.  This documentation shouldn't attempt
to replace something it can't:  a basic usage reference.

> > This man page is not kept up to date except when volunteers want
> > to maintain it.  If you find a discrepancy between the man page
> > and the software, please check the Info file, which is the
> > authoritative documentation.
> 
> This is the choice of the program's authors. 

For someone crowing over the advantages of Info and its benefits in
conveying information, you seem to have a fundamental comprehension
problem:

This is _NOT_ a statement of author's choice, it's _GNU's POLICY_.


> > ...followed by dire warnings that the manpage may not be updated,
> > etc., etc.  At which point the pitiless reader turns to the info
> > document...which in many cases is a copy of the same manpage (now
> > presented in an unfamiliar document viewer).  Houston, we've got a
> > problem.
> 
> This is the choice of debian maintainers.

Looks to me more like someone dropped the ball.  "G

Problems with GnuPG

[Viktor Rosenfeld]

Hi there,

slightly off-topic, but it happened on a Debian system and maybe some of
you know the answer.

I just lost both my secret and public GnuPG keyrings for the second
time.  I've been using GnuPG along with mutt for about three month now,
and today mutt complained that it couldn't find my secret key, when
trying to sign a message.  And, yep, `gpg --list-keys` lists only two
keys, probably the most recently imported, which happens automagically
with mutt.  I restored my keyrings from backup, and now everything works
fine, but this is the second time this has happened, and I don't really
have a clue why.

Actually, I didn't shut my machine down yesterday, I just hit the big
red switch.  However, the system had been idle for straight 6 hours
except for watching TV with xawtv.  I also use ext3, so I don't think
that file corruption would be an issue.

System: Debian Sid, 1 month since last dist-upgrade
Kernel: Linux 2.4.16
Mutt: 1.3.23-4
GnuPG: 1.0.6-2

TIA,
Viktor
-- 
Viktor Rosenfeld
WWW: http://www.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~rosenfel/


pgp1Uw6KmYENB.pgp
Description: PGP signature

OT: PVR - Wouldn't this be cool

[Paul McHale]

I suspect Tivo doesn't make a lot of money from the direct sale.  Probably
make more money from monthly subscription.  If this is true, it would be
awesome if they started a Tivo linux distribution.

Here is the dream.  You take your old PC.  Add a supported MPEG
encoder/decoder card such as wintv (USB IR remote option is $19).  Make sure
network card or modem is on supported list.  Drop Tivo Linux distro in CD
drive and watch it work.  Corel Linux can install in four questions.  This
would install with no questions.  Automatically formatting all drives and
using network card or modem for schedule update.  Tivo Unit ID could be
network card OUI.  I would also allow client apps to remotely watch recorded
shows on any networked PC.

For less than $150, a throw away PC could be converted to a Tivo with
unparalleled functionality.  Wouldn't this make some sense for Tivo to
pursue.  BTW.  They would also release project to open source community
allowing support from forums similar to this.

I know, just a dream.  To much eggnog :)

Happy Holidays,

Paul



--
Paul McHale
   Work:   937-320-5495  Double E Solutions
   Mobile: 937-371-2828  1435 Edenwood Dr
   Fax:413-215-3232  Beavercreek, Ohio 45434
--

Re: https with galeon/mozilla

[Sridhar M.A.]

On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:27:13PM -0600, Michael Heldebrant wrote:
   > 
   > Are you trying to use a proxy that is munging your https connections
   > under linux?
   > 
Thanks, that did it. Contacted the isp and got the settings. It is
working fine now.

-- 
Sridhar M.A. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

A crow perched himself on a telephone wire.  He was going to make a
long-distance caw.

Re: networking interfaces map-scheme

[David Z Maze]

Lance Hoffmeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
LH> I am having problems getting ipmasq working with 2.4.14 kernel and
LH> iptables so I wanted to created two interfaces for one of my machines
LH> until I get ipmasq working properly.  
LH> 
LH> One interface is a standalone for internet use
LH> One interface is masq'd for testing if Ipmasq is working

I'm guessing what you want is IP aliasing support.  But, there are a
couple of possibilities here:

 +-+-+
 |192.168.1.3  |192.168.1.2  |192.168.1.1
 | |10.1.2.3 |
   +---+ +---+ +---+
   | C | | B | | A |
   +---+ +---+ +---+
 |10.1.2.2
 v

I assume the machine you're actually trying to set up is "A"; it has
two physical network interfaces, with a connection to the external
world and a connection to your internal network.  However, the machine
you actually have is "B", and you want it to respond to both internal
and external packets on the same physical network.  (You're going to
get this by plugging machine "B" into the "v" there, not by having it
plugged into the internal network, probably.)  Alternatively, you
might have "C", which is on exactly one of the internal or external
addresses.

LH> In /etc/network/interfaces I have created

LH> mapping eth0
LH> script /usr/sbin/map-scheme
LH> map STAND eth0-stand
LH> map MASQ eth0-masq

This says "run /usr/sbin/map-scheme, feed 'STAND eth0-stand' and 'MASQ
eth0-masq' to its standard input, and use whatever comes out of its
standard output as the actual interface to use".  You'd have to write
that script yourself; the guessnet package (in unstable) might provide
a suitable replacement, or if not would give an example of the sorts
of things you might want to actually do.

If you wanted to try the IP aliasing scheme (machine "B"), you'd
create normal eth0 and eth0:1 devices in /etc/network/interfaces, and
add them both to the "auto" line.  Don't try to use the map stuff here.

LH> I assume when I am finished I will either type
LH> 
LH> ifup STAND
LH> ifup MASQ

In that case, you basically have machine "C", which is statically
configured to be on either the internal or the external network (but
not both).  I'd leave eth0 out of the auto line entirely, but I'd have

iface eth0-stand inet static
address 192.168.1.1 (etc.)
iface eth0-masq inet dhcp # If your ISP gives you a DHCPable address

Then when you boot up, you won't get any network at all, but you can
(as root) run 'ifup eth0=eth0-stand' or 'ifup eth0=eth0-masq' to get
one or the other.

Oh, and this all assumes testing/unstable Debian; if you're using a
2.2 kernel, you need to enable IP aliasing in the kernel configuration
(don't know if this is done for the stock kernels or not).  But then,
the 'map' code also only exists in the testing/unstable ifupdown, so
you probably are using that already.

-- 
David Maze [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://people.debian.org/~dmaze/
"Theoretical politics is interesting.  Politicking should be illegal."
-- Abra Mitchell