date:20140918

But that is not risk-free. What if the thing that's overwriting the file
on startup dislikes not being able to write to the file and crashes?

By the way, my solution would fail if the overwriting is happening after
startup.



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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

On Fri, 19 Sep 2014 09:51:30 +0300
softwatt  wrote:

> Can Jessie keep my home partition intact and just overwrite the other
> partition?

Current Debian installer can be persuaded to do so, sure. You can do
even better - co-install Jessie with the current Wheezy just in case
something will go wrong with a new install.

Reco

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Re: /etc/network/interface file auto reset.

 Hi.

On Fri, 19 Sep 2014 09:46:15 +0300
softwatt  wrote:

> I hope this helps.
> 

chattr +i /etc/network/interfaces

will prevent overwriting the file with much less hassle.

PS Have no idea on the original problem.

Reco


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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

I knew*



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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

Thanks you.

When I first installed Wheezy, I've knew this day would come, and since
my home directory is basically the only thing I need, I put my home
directory in one partition and the rest of the system in another.

Can Jessie keep my home partition intact and just overwrite the other
partition?



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Re: /etc/network/interface file auto reset.

I have no idea how to solve the problem itself, someone else might help
you there.

But here's a way to bypass the problem by telling Debian to overwrite
the file on each startup. It might work.

Copy the file you want to preserve to somewhere else.
In this example I've copied etc/network/interface to /opt/interface.


Now, in /etc/rc.local add this line:
cp /opt/interface /etc/network/interface

I hope this helps.



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/etc/network/interface file auto reset.

2014-09-18 Thread Muhammad Yousuf Khan

Hi guys,

i am using wheezy with libvirt virtualization i have configured a bridge
interface for that purpose.
i have statically set the bridge interface in interfaces file.
like this

# This file describes the network interfaces available on your system
# and how to activate them. For more information, see interfaces(5).

# The loopback network interface
auto lo
iface lo inet loopback

# The primary network interface
allow-hotplug eth1
allow-hotplug br0
#iface eth1 inet dhcp
#iface eth1 inet static
iface br0 inet static
address 10.xx.xx.18
netmask 255.xx.xx.xx
network 10.xx.xx.0
gateway 10.xx.xx.3
broadcast 10.xx.xx.255
dns-nameservers 10.xx.xx.8
bridge_ports eth1
bridge_stp off
auto br0


now when ever i restart the wheezy server i shows me something like this.
auto lo
iface lo inet loopback
iface br0 inet dhcp
   bridge_ports eth1
bridge_stp off
auto br


and eventually my connection gets broken.
Please help.

Thanks,
MYK

Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate

2014-09-18 Thread Chris Bannister

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 12:02:48PM -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 9/17/2014 10:48 AM, Slavko wrote:
> > Dňa Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:40:40 +0200 B  napísal:
> >>
> >>>  If yes,
> >>> then "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" ...
> >>
> >> Alas, poor Slavko ;-)
> >>
> >>
> > 
> > I am sorry, i don't understand your reply (my poor English).
> > 
> > regards
> > 
> 
> Just not familiar with some of the common phrases used in the English
> speaking world.

COMMOM? How *dare* you! :)

-- 
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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

 Hi.

On Fri, 19 Sep 2014 08:54:51 +0300
softwatt  wrote:

> Also, does a clean install offer any advantage over an upgrade? It's
> really a pain and I prefer to avoid it, but if there are good reasons
> I'll do it.

Let's see:

A clean install of Jessie may be preferred as you'll get systemd out
of the box. Conventional upgrade may result in keeping old init.

Conventional upgrade may keep some so-called 'orphaned' packages, i.e.
they were supported in Wheezy, but they aren't in the archive in Jessie.

Conventional upgrade will try its best to keep your customizations to
the configuration files (whenever such customizations produce a
meaningful result should be sorted out on case-by-base basis). A clean
install will produce maintainer's version of such files in 100% of
cases.

And, of course, losing power during 'apt-get dist-upgrade' may result
in a unbootable system. A fresh installation will be screwed by such
event too, but you can always start an installation anew, but its much
harder with 'apt-get dist-upgrade'.

Reco

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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 21:37:14 +0100
Martin Read  wrote:

> On 18/09/14 19:37, Reco wrote:
> > Are those formats documented somewhere? I'm asking as suddenly I felt an
> > irresistible urge to write journald log viewer and a wireshark
> > dissector. Please note that 'documented' does not equal to 'they
> > provide the source it's all there'.
> 
> The binary on-disk format of the journal:
> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/journal-files/

Sigh:

Note that the actual implementation in the systemd codebase is the
only ultimately authoritative description of the format, so if this
document and the code disagree, the code is right. That said we'll of
course try hard to keep this document up-to-date and accurate.

Still, it's a start. Thanks.

Reco


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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

Also, does a clean install offer any advantage over an upgrade? It's
really a pain and I prefer to avoid it, but if there are good reasons
I'll do it.



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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

On 09/18/2014 11:54 PM, Gary Dale wrote:
> If you didn't do a dist-upgrade since Jessie came out, you could be
> running the older wheezy packages as part of your system. Not recommended.

What about the claim that it's best to do `apt-get upgrade` first,
followed by `apt-get dist-upgrade`?



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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

On 09/18/2014 08:50 PM, Sven Hartge wrote:
> On some systems it has been necessary (during the Squeeze to Wheezy
> upgrade) to first use only "apt-get upgrade" after upgrading apt and
> dpkg and then issuing the full dist-upgrade as final step to get a
> smoother upgrade. This where mostly systems which had already been
> upgraded from Sarge to Etch to Lenny to Squeeze and had a good amount of
> locally backported packages on them.

So, the safest would be the following?

#Update sources.list to Jessie first
apt-get update
apt-get install apt dpkg aptitude
apt-get upgrade
apt-get --download-only dist-upgrade
apt-get dist-upgrade





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Re: Skype + Linux? was Jack: was Slight New Sound Problem

2014-09-18 Thread Raffaele Morelli

On 18/09/14 at 05:19pm, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 20:29:26 +0200
> Raffaele Morelli  wrote:
> 
> > On 18/09/14 at 11:09am, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> > > My understanding of Jack (and please correct me if I'm wrong), is
> > > that it's like being able to patchcord together all sorts of
> > > software sound processor boxes, in whatever configuration I want.
> > > I'd *love* to be able to do that.
> > 
> > Yes, jack compliant applications can be routed from/to every where.
> > Non compliant apps can also be routed with little tweaking (eg.
> > flashplayer, skype)
> 
> Did I just hear you saying that the latest Skype, which no longer works
> with Linux without massive tweaks, can be made to work on Linux using
> Jack? That would give me plenty of incentive to try again!
> 

Nope, latest skype release dropped alsa support definitely, my fault.

-- 
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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

2014-09-18 Thread David Christensen


On 09/18/2014 11:50 AM, Haines Brown wrote:

I normally
reinstall the operating system on a refreshed HD with a Debian Installer
each time there is an upgrade.


+1



Then I copy over my custom directories
(such as /usr/local/share)


Assuming /usr/local/share is pure user data, +1.



and copy the configurations in /home/ and
/etc/.


I'm running a SOHO network and don't have much to configure.  I keep 
/etc/hosts, ~/.bashrc, ~/.bash_profile, and ~/.vimrc in CVS, and back 
up/ restore my e-mail, address book, and bookmarks.  For most everything 
else, I start with the defaults and adjust manually as needed.



David


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Choice of init system?

2014-09-18 Thread Ed Jabbour

Does (or will) the Jessie install offer a choice of systemd or 
sys5init?


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-18 Thread agr

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 08:52:41PM +0200, B wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:42:21 -0700
> agr  wrote:
> 
> > I have been using Debian for almost 14 years continuosly, and i had to 
> > transfered 1 server to OpenBSD, because the comments in this list are
> > uncertain; i can not wait for Jessi to do the transition. 
> 
> Could you tell us about this migration (ease, problems, etc)?
> 
.
Sure, it was really simple, i am running www, sftp, mail, and other 
services. For Desktop, i changed 1 to Slackware, and i feel very 
comfortable with it; both changes free of Systemd. No problems at all.

I do not want Systemd, because it come from Red Hut (Corporation), very 
strong relation with Microsoft. The same thing with, Mac-Microsoft; and 
for me it means the NSA behind!

Bye.



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Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate

2014-09-18 Thread David L. Craig

On 14Sep18:1301-0400, David L. Craig wrote:

> Ironically, I have been recovering
> from some strange Sid upgrade issues involving systemd for
> past half day--I'm still uncertain what went south, but I
> seem to be back with /sbin/init for now.  Unfortunately,
> Sid seems to break my toys at the worst times.  Sigh...

Opened 762146 about this after repeating it in a vm installed
from the beta D-I netinstl without network mirror for a
minimal dist-upgrade to Sid, in case anyone is interested.
-- 

May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!

Dave_Craig__
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
 You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
 Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_

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Re: OT: Pepper Flash Crashes Everywhere

2014-09-18 Thread Patrick Bartek

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014, Stephen Allen wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 06:14:43PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > Anyone else experiencing this?  Haven't found any reports so far.
> > Chrome & Pepper ran fine before update/upgrade a few days ago.
> > Figured I'd check before I started mucking about the system trying
> > to fix it.
> > 
> > Downloaded .deb directly from Google for the install which was about
> > 18 months ago. System always kept up to date.
> > 
> > Wheezy 7.6 (64-bit).  Openbox 3.5.0-7 WM Only.  No other gui
> > environments installed.
> > Chrome 37.0.2062.120 (64-bit)
> > libpepflashplayer.so 15.0.0.152
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't pepperflash purpose to give
> Chromium users an updated Flash since the Flash version for Linux has
> been halted?

It's for Chrome, too.  Same reason.  FWIW:  Chrome is based off Chromium
code.  Or so, I've read.  Don't know how "close" the two are codewise.

> AFAIK Google-Chrome contains it's own Flash internally, which Google
> updates as necessarily automatically on ones machine.

Pepperflash in Google-Chrome isn't "internal."  The libpepflahplayer.so
is here: /opt/google/chrome/PepperFlash.  My updates/upgrades are 100%
manual, but if there is a new version number of Google-Chrome-Stable
and/or PepperFlash, they get upgraded like anything else would on the
system.

B

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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 20:52:41 +0200
B  wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:42:21 -0700
> agr  wrote:
> 
> > I have been using Debian for almost 14 years continuosly, and i had
> > to transfered 1 server to OpenBSD, because the comments in this
> > list are uncertain; i can not wait for Jessi to do the transition. 
> 
> Could you tell us about this migration (ease, problems, etc)?

I'm not agr, but I'll give you my observations so far, implementing an
OpenBSD/pf firewall/router and a desktop (xfce) for evaluation...

* Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore! It's a familiar
  environment, but a lot of the old standbys aren't there. No /proc,
  for instance. Device names are very different. A cheat sheet helps.

* Qemu's difficult. On Debian, you just run the right
  qemu-system-x86_64 command, and bang, you have a guest OS. On
  OpenBSD, the same types of things error out or just plain stall
  without comment. I'm still working on this.

* OpenBSD is closer to the metal, without the install insanity of Arch.
  There's less surprise factor. In fact, the install is quite similar
  to Debian's network install.

* OpenBSD's filesystem isn't efficient. If you're running things that
  make and delete lots of files, I'd consider doing it on a different
  OS or a different filesystem, if OpenBSD supports such.

* This is subjective, but every time I've used OpenBSD, it had a very
  stable "feel". Everything worked the same way every time, nothing
  crashed (except stuff like qemu that is poorly supported).

* If you enjoy configuring your OS with an editor, you'll enjoy OpenBSD.

* On my experimental desktop, Youtube videos worked on the standard
  install. I didn't expect that.

HTH,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

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Re: OT: Pepper Flash Crashes Everywhere

2014-09-18 Thread Stephen Allen

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 06:14:43PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> Anyone else experiencing this?  Haven't found any reports so far.
> Chrome & Pepper ran fine before update/upgrade a few days ago.  Figured
> I'd check before I started mucking about the system trying to fix it.
> 
> Downloaded .deb directly from Google for the install which was about
> 18 months ago. System always kept up to date.
> 
> Wheezy 7.6 (64-bit).  Openbox 3.5.0-7 WM Only.  No other gui
> environments installed.
> Chrome 37.0.2062.120 (64-bit)
> libpepflashplayer.so 15.0.0.152

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't pepperflash purpose to give Chromium users an
updated Flash since the Flash version for Linux has been halted?

AFAIK Google-Chrome contains it's own Flash internally, which Google
updates as necessarily automatically on ones machine.


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Re: Skype + Linux? was Jack: was Slight New Sound Problem

On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 17:19:01 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 20:29:26 +0200
> Raffaele Morelli  wrote:
> > 
> > Yes, jack compliant applications can be routed from/to every where.
> > Non compliant apps can also be routed with little tweaking (eg.
> > flashplayer, skype)
> 
> Did I just hear you saying that the latest Skype, which no longer works
> with Linux without massive tweaks, can be made to work on Linux using
> Jack? That would give me plenty of incentive to try again!

Anyone reading this would gain the impression that getting latest Skype
working on Debian involves an enormous amount of work ("massive tweaks").
This is simply incorrect. Having to try again implies it wasn't done
correctly the first time round. 


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Re: Error with Latest Google Chrome Stable

2014-09-18 Thread Stephen Allen

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 07:09:10PM +0100, Alan Chandler wrote:
> On 14/09/14 23:40, Kenneth Jacker wrote:


< snip  >

> >Is this a known bug?  With Chrome?  With Flash?
> >
> 
> See https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=410805
> 
> The suggested place to get a replacement is here
> 
> http://mirror.pcbeta.com/google/chrome/deb/pool/main/g/google-chrome-stable/

Is this an offical site? If not, I'd be careful.


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Re: Slight New Sound Problem

2014-09-18 Thread T.J. Duchene

Pulseaudio has had a long history of being poorly handling certain audio
chipset drivers, I'm afraid. You may be able to solve your problem by
adjusting the the driver parameters in the file: /etc/pulse/default.pa. You
will need to have administrator permission to do this. Be sure to make a
backup copy of the file before you make changes, just in case.


Edit the line:
load-module module-udev-detect

and add "tsched=0" so it will be:

load-module module-udev-detect tsched=0

Save it, and then preferably reboot, just to be on the safe side. Don't
worry, this parameter should be perfectly safe to use. It will force
PulseAudio try to not bulldoze over the sound driver's timing by forcing
the scheduler to 0.

As a last resort to fix problems with PA, I've backported a newer version
from Sid to Debian Stable, but I don't recommend that unless you really and
fully understand what you are getting into.  It can cause problems.

Skype + Linux? was Jack: was Slight New Sound Problem

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 20:29:26 +0200
Raffaele Morelli  wrote:

> On 18/09/14 at 11:09am, Steve Litt wrote:

> > My understanding of Jack (and please correct me if I'm wrong), is
> > that it's like being able to patchcord together all sorts of
> > software sound processor boxes, in whatever configuration I want.
> > I'd *love* to be able to do that.
> 
> Yes, jack compliant applications can be routed from/to every where.
> Non compliant apps can also be routed with little tweaking (eg.
> flashplayer, skype)

Did I just hear you saying that the latest Skype, which no longer works
with Linux without massive tweaks, can be made to work on Linux using
Jack? That would give me plenty of incentive to try again!

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: Jack: was Slight New Sound Problem

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:15:29 +0200
Peter Nieman  wrote:

> On 18/09/14 17:09, Steve Litt wrote:
> > I really want to use Jack, but every time I've tried, I failed
> > miserably and gotten no sound. Is there some special mindset you
> > need when installing/configuring Jack, and if so, where can I find
> > out about it?
> 
> There's a graphical frontend called qjackctl where you can make 
> connections and change settings manually. Did you try that?

No, but I will. Thanks for the great info.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

2014-09-18 Thread Gary Dale


On 18/09/14 02:11 PM, Michael Fothergill wrote:
If your /etc/apt/sources.list file refers to your current distribution 
as "stable" then once Jessie becomes the new "stable" then apt-get 
update followed by apt-get dist-upgrade will work.


If your sources.list file calls it "wheezy" then you need to change it 
to "jessie" before doing the apt-gets.


If you want to keep upgrading to the latest "testing" distribution, 
then change "stable" or "wheezy" to "testing" and do the apt-gets.


Please can I ask a dumb question here.   My sources.list file was set 
to testing and it also was hooked up to wheezy updates.  Was that 
unhelpful to me once wheezy became stable?


Also, if you would continue being "testing" as I had tried to do (but 
ended up having to reinstall as testing) was it right of me to keep 
the testing repository links in there  and change the wheezy updates 
to Jessie updates as I did.


Was I doing something wrong there that contributed to me not being 
able to continue as testing without reinstalling?


Thanks

Michael Fothergill

I'm not sure what you mean by "it was also hooked up to wheezy updates". 
Keeping both sets of repositories would be useful if a package you 
require was dropped from the current "testing" and even then you might 
be better off compiling it for your current system. If the wheezy 
package has dependencies, and most do, then it could fail at any time.


My advice is don't mix stable and testing. Use backports if you need a 
newer package than stable contains or stick with testing and pull 
something down from Sid if a testing package you need breaks. Remember, 
testing is not guaranteed to work.


I personally prefer to always do a dist-upgrade since it is a more 
complete upgrade than the normal one. If your repositories always point 
to testing, this will keep you current. Other people prefer to just do 
an upgrade, claiming it is safer. However you might miss major changes, 
such as a switch from OpenOffice.org to LibreOffice.


If you didn't do a dist-upgrade since Jessie came out, you could be 
running the older wheezy packages as part of your system. Not recommended.




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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-18 Thread Martin Read


On 18/09/14 19:37, Reco wrote:

Are those formats documented somewhere? I'm asking as suddenly I felt an
irresistible urge to write journald log viewer and a wireshark
dissector. Please note that 'documented' does not equal to 'they
provide the source it's all there'.


The main page for systemd on freedesktop.org:

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/

links to these description of the formats in question (among an 
assortment of other user, administrator, and developer documentation):


The binary network serialization format of the journal:
http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/export/

The binary on-disk format of the journal:
http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/journal-files/

The JSON serialization format of the journal:
http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/json/


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Re: screen 0: in putty title bar



On 18/09/2014 17:38, B wrote:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 17:33:18 +0100
Apero Maxx  wrote:


PROMPT_COMMAND='printf "\033k%s@%s:%s\033\\" "${USER}"
"${HOSTNAME%%.*}" "${PWD/#$HOME/~}"'

Check ~/.bashrc for the right string.

I've cracked it thank you! Working just how I like it now.

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Re: git: how to figure out with a script what the last commit on remote repo is without fetching it

2014-09-18 Thread lee

Joel Rees  writes:

> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 10:43 PM, lee  wrote:
>> Joel Rees  writes:
>>
>>> 2014/09/14 6:55 "lee" yun.yagibdah.de
>>> >:

 Joel Rees @ gmail.com
>>> > writes:
>>>
>>> I can't think of any reason it would be dependent on https connectivity.
>>> Any way you can reach the repository should allow scripted query, thus
>>> checking by a cron job.
>>
>> Oh I don't think it's limited; the problem is to figure out how to use
>> other protocols like git to get the information.
>
> Hmm. So. When you do a
>
> git status
>
> on the command line, with the current working directory at the
> appropriate place in the repostory, you have taken the trouble to
> specify your repository as something like
>
> http://git.code.sf.net/p/asm68c/code
>
> instead of
>
> git://git.code.sf.net/p/asm68c/code
>
> ?

In one case, I cloned it; in another, I don't know anymore what exactly
I did.

> I think git is the usual/default protocol when you clone a repository.

I don't know --- look at an arbitrary repo on github, and you'll find
yourself presented with an http URL to clone it.  Look at the emacs
git-repo, and you're presented a git URL to clone it.

Whether that means that all repos are accessible through http _and_ git,
I don't know.

> Or do you mean that you are using a web browser to browse and observe
> the repository?

Yes and no.  With one of the repos, it's convenient to use a web browser
to look at the change log because it's presented on the web site.  To
figure out if there have been changes, I'd have to look at the web
site.

In the other case, I'm not looking at a web site.

In any of the cases, I'm *not* being informed about new commits.  I need
to look for them one way or another, and I'd rather get an email that
informs me automatically.

> If so,suddenly your questions make sense, sort of.
> Except I then want to know why you want to access the repository, if
> you aren't doing things that involve the whole tree, or perhaps
> sub-sections of the tree.

On of the repos is an upstream repo to my fork, so I pull from it from
time to time.  The other one is the emacs repo, and I haven't made a
fork of it.  I just pull from it from time to time to keep my emacs
version up to date --- and I have made a modification to hilock.el of
which I hope might be integrated plus a minor modification to one of the
files written in C.  That can make things a bit more complicated than
simply pulling every now and then.

All of this may involve the whole tree or not, depending on what has
changed.  What does it matter?

>> With polling, these 50k users each connecting three times a day makes
>> 150k connections to the git server.  The git server would have to be
>> able to completely handle each connection within 0.576 seconds, and it
>> might become unreachable during spikes.
>
> Well, yeah, that's one of the reasons the hooks have been provided.
> But most repositories don't have that kind of traffic.

Probably not --- we'd have to ask the developers of git why such an
important feature is missing.

> And you should also consider that, with git, the assumption is that
> everyone is mostly working on their own clone of the repository,
> sometimes doing diffs and so-forth with other developers'
> repositories, and only occasionally going to a central repository.

How would that work, or why would they make a copy at some point in
time, work totally isolated on that for a year or for many years and
only then look at a central repo eventually?  That doesn't make any
sense to me.

Git is supposed to be a tool for collaboration, isn't it?  People
working together on something would probably have a hard time to
collaborate through isolating themselves by not keeping track of a
central repo or by not keeping track of everyone elses repo.

Once someone pushes to the central repo (or their own), everyone else
may want to have the latest version and thus needs to pull --- or they
decide to wait when looking at the change log.  How does everyone get
informed about new commits (when a hook that sends out an email isn't
used)?

Everyone would have to track the centralised repo, or various repos, by
manually using a web browser or some other manual means to see what's
going on.  It's stupid when you have to do that.

-- 
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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-18 Thread Slavko

Ahoj,

Dňa Thu, 18 Sep 2014 13:56:47 -0500 John Hasler 
napísal:

> Slavko writes:
> > I was try this some days ago (when latest systemd-shim goes into
> > testing). By my understand of the root of problem, the policykit
> > based users rights depends on libpam-systemd which relies on the
> > libsystemd-login0 information about active and/or local user logins.
> > And the libsystemd-login0 fails to provide correct info about user
> > logins, when the systemd (> 204) is not a PID 1 proces, due missing
> > some DBUS interface.
> 
> You've reported this bug?

No, id didn't report it, because it was reported (it was reasignet to
systemd-shim) by someone other and this report was start of my
understanding the problem. I initially think, that problem comes from
my display manager (slim), but there i see, that the same problems are
with lighdm and gdm.

Then, please, when you consider me as too lazy to report a problem, use
the BTS first...

regards

-- 
Slavko
http://slavino.sk

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Re: Jack: was Slight New Sound Problem

2014-09-18 Thread Joel Roth

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 08:29:26PM +0200, Raffaele Morelli wrote:
> On 18/09/14 at 11:09am, Steve Litt wrote:
> > I really want to use Jack, but every time I've tried, I
> > failed miserably and gotten no sound. Is there some
> > special mindset you need when installing/configuring
> > Jack, and if so, where can I find out about it?
> 
> Well, it's quite straightforward to use jackd and no
> particular trick is needed.  Install jackd2 and its gui
> qjackctl and alsa-utils. Get rid or stop PulseAudio and
> start qjackctl, see what happens and report (qjackctl has
> a nice message log window)

Getting rid of pulseaudio is the most reliable way to start.
qjackctl looks nice, but I've always just started jackd
manually, and used jack_lsp to show me the connections. 

I start jackd like this:

jackd -d alsa -d hw:0,0 -r 44100 -H &

And you need some test program that you know outputs
to the soundcard (system:playback under JACK).

e.g. ecasound -i test.wav -o jack,system


> Keep in mind that often no sound means that alsamixer
> volumes are muted or at 0 level which seems to be the
> default.

This! Use the arrow keys and 'M' key to toggle muting.
Also you need to hit the 'SPACE' key to set CAPTURE for 
each input.

Use the TAB key in alsamixer to make sure you 
reach all the I/O choices.

> > My understanding of Jack (and please correct me if I'm
> > wrong), is that it's like being able to patchcord
> > together all sorts of software sound processor boxes, in
> > whatever configuration I want. I'd *love* to be able to
> > do that.
> 
> Yes, jack compliant applications can be routed from/to
> every where. Non compliant apps can also be routed with
> little tweaking (eg. flashplayer, skype)

Look at the JACK docs for details. 

# The following may be useful with pulse audio
# although TBH, I never got them to work.

# pactl load-module module-jack-sink channels=2; 
# pactl load-module module-jack-source channels=2;
# pacmd set-default-sink jack_out

Cheers,

Joel

-- 
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Re: Making keyboard remap changes permanent without reboot.

2014-09-18 Thread Alexandros Prekates

Thanks all for their help.

Finally i decided to install jessy debian testing and tested the problem
in testing where there is no reverting back and the remap stays ok
during the whole session.


Thank.
Alexandros 


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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

2014-09-18 Thread Sven Hartge

Haines Brown  wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 07:50:10PM +0200, Sven Hartge wrote:
>> softwatt  wrote:

>> This leads to a newish trend in systems administration, facilitated
>> by widespread use of virtualisation or container techniques: never
>> upgrade a system to a new release, just "spawn" a new and fresh
>> installed one and copy your data/application/whatever over.
>> 
>> Combined with tools like Puppet/Chef/Ansible this provides you with a
>> reproducible and always "factory fresh" operating system without the
>> cobwebs of years of past upgrades in the basement.
>> 
>> But I digress.

> Sven, please digress. Just what do you mean by "spawn"? I normally
> reinstall the operating system on a refreshed HD with a Debian
> Installer each time there is an upgrade. Then I copy over my custom
> directories (such as /usr/local/share) and copy the configurations in
> /home/ and /etc/. How does this differ from your "spawn"?

"spawn" was meant as a kind of wildcard expression for "create a fresh
system with the tool of your choice".

One could clone a pre-made VM and then use Puppet/Chef/... to customize
it.

Or use a pre-seeded installer or something like FAI to install a fresh
system from scratch and then use Puppet/etc.

Or utilize docker.io to create a lightweight container with the
application overlay of your choice and needs.

Or even, as you do, reinstall from scratch on real hardware and
customize this by copying over needed configuration and data.

I personally right now like the "pre-seeded installer + puppet" way to
create new virtual systems on VMware vSphere. 

I tried the built-in clone feature of vSphere but found that this only
really works great with Windows-based VMs. Linux-VMs need to many manual
adjustments after cloning that I am as fast if I just create a new VM
and let the pre-seeded installer do its thing. And by doing so I can be
sure there are no hidden UUIDs (like dbus or systemd create) left over.

Old VMs are still upgraded to a new release using the classic "apt-get
update; apt-get dist-upgrade" way. 

Because every VM here is only dedicated to one and only one job, each VM
has only minimal changes to its default configuration, allowing easy and
swift dist-upgrades. 

This all are of course procedures grown over time. If I were to start
over right now I would me more strict in the direction of creating and
managing Debian systems, maybe automate way more using puppet than right
now or even creating a automated local MaaS-cloud using OpenStack.

My private systems on the other hand are from the stone age. This system
I am typing this mail on was installed back in 2000 with Slink, promptly
updated to Frozen Unstable Potato and kept at Unstable ever since
(leading to fun bugs like #631245), upgrading it at least once a day,
sometimes even more often. (Yes, I like to dance on the bleeding edge.)
Of course it does use modern hardware and not the 486DX4/100 it was
installed on back then.

It is kind of a sport and challenge for me to never reinstall my private
systems, always migrate the data either using rsync or if ever possible
pvmove for LVM.

But because of this I already now any kinks and problems a new release
may have and are thus able to upgrade my production servers without big
problems, because odds are, I already had those problems on my own
systems during the development phase of the next release.

Hm. Sorry, I am rambling again. What was the topic again? :)

Grüße,
Sven.

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Re: Q: security fixes

2014-09-18 Thread Hans

Am Donnerstag, 18. September 2014, 12:16:05 schrieb Don Armstrong:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014, Hans wrote:
> > is there any reason, why security fixes are done in sid and stable,
> > but not in testing? Latest example: apt.
> 
> 1. Developer time[1]
> 
> 2. Testing gets fixed automatically when packages move from unstable to
> testing; security updates generally migrate in two days or less.
> 
> 1: There used to be a testing-security group which tried to update
> security issues directly in testing. If the security of testing is
> really important to you, consider becoming a DD or otherwise enable this
> work to be done.

Ah, thanks for the answer. No, no, security in testing is not such important 
for me. It is just that I wondered, because unstable is newer than testing and 
stable older than testing. I just imagined, security fixed versions go 
automatically directly from sid to testing, not after a delay. However, I know 
that ALL packages in testing got a delay by changing from sid to testing. I 
did not know, that security-fixed packages got this delay, too. 

So it is, you fix in unstable and testing will be fixed by migrating packagages 
to testing. That is also ok for me. 

So, this makes all clear. Thanks for the response.

Happy hacking

Hans

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Re: Q: security fixes

2014-09-18 Thread Don Armstrong

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014, Hans wrote:
> is there any reason, why security fixes are done in sid and stable,
> but not in testing? Latest example: apt.

1. Developer time[1]

2. Testing gets fixed automatically when packages move from unstable to
testing; security updates generally migrate in two days or less.
 
1: There used to be a testing-security group which tried to update
security issues directly in testing. If the security of testing is
really important to you, consider becoming a DD or otherwise enable this
work to be done.
-- 
Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com

Our days are precious, but we gladly see them going
If in their place we find a thing more precious growing
A rare, exotic plant, our gardener's heart delighting
A child whom we are teaching, a booklet we are writing
 -- Frederick Rükert _Wisdom of the Brahmans_ 
 [Hermann Hesse _Glass Bead Game_]


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

Slavko writes:
> I was try this some days ago (when latest systemd-shim goes into
> testing). By my understand of the root of problem, the policykit based
> users rights depends on libpam-systemd which relies on the
> libsystemd-login0 information about active and/or local user logins.
> And the libsystemd-login0 fails to provide correct info about user
> logins, when the systemd (> 204) is not a PID 1 proces, due missing
> some DBUS interface.

You've reported this bug?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Q: security fixes

2014-09-18 Thread Hans

Hi folks,

is there any reason, why security fixes are done in sid and stable, but not in 
testing? Latest example: apt.

Fixed in unstable and stable, but not in testing. In testing it is still 1.0.8 
and not fixed. Weired policy...

Best 

Hans


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:42:21 -0700
agr  wrote:

> I have been using Debian for almost 14 years continuosly, and i had to 
> transfered 1 server to OpenBSD, because the comments in this list are
> uncertain; i can not wait for Jessi to do the transition. 

Could you tell us about this migration (ease, problems, etc)?


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

 Hi.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:03:21 +0100
Martin Read  wrote:

> However, at the time of this e-mail, it appears to have been covered by 
> the Interface Stability Promise for nearly a year *at a minimum*; as of 
> 24 Oct 2013 (the last time the page linked below was edited), journald's 
> on-disk recording (Journal File Format) and on-wire network transfer 
> (Journal Export Format) formats were definitely labelled as being 
> covered by the Interface Stability Promise:

Are those formats documented somewhere? I'm asking as suddenly I felt an
irresistible urge to write journald log viewer and a wireshark
dissector. Please note that 'documented' does not equal to 'they
provide the source it's all there'.

And 'nearly a year of stability' does not even cover an Ubuntu support
cycle, not to mention a Debian one.

Reco

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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 19:46:43 +0200, Slavko wrote:

> Dňa Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:53:21 +0100 Brian 
> napísal:
> 
> > For anyone intending to install Jessie, which is the only thing which
> > matters for Debian and the immediate future, the practical
> > alternatives and direction to take have been described many times
> > over the past few months. In fact, in the last few days:
> > 
> >   
> > https://lists.debian.org/12092014224057.ff13b66f7...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
> >   
> > https://lists.debian.org/17092014175756.ef88cea78...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
> > 
> 
> Are you know, that this will work, or you are think, that this will
> work? Beware, if one think, then this one don't know.
> 
> You are too quick. Your suggestions simple doesn't work everywhere, as
> i posted more times here. Because you are able to find links, please
> find them by self...

I know that

  apt-get install sysvinit-core

will replace systemd as PID 1. At a reboot no system unit files will be
used and afterwards all services will be managed by sysvinit.

I also know that

  apt-get install systemd-shim

is intended to run aspects of systemd without having systemd as PID 1.

I do not know how this works for everyone. If it does not work as
expected a well-documented bug report is the way to go.


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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

2014-09-18 Thread Haines Brown

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 07:50:10PM +0200, Sven Hartge wrote:
> softwatt  wrote:

> This leads to a newish trend in systems administration, facilitated by
> widespread use of virtualisation or container techniques: never upgrade
> a system to a new release, just "spawn" a new and fresh installed one
> and copy your data/application/whatever over.
> 
> Combined with tools like Puppet/Chef/Ansible this provides you with a
> reproducible and always "factory fresh" operating system without the
> cobwebs of years of past upgrades in the basement.
> 
> But I digress.

Sven, please digress. Just what do you mean by "spawn"? I normally
reinstall the operating system on a refreshed HD with a Debian Installer
each time there is an upgrade. Then I copy over my custom directories
(such as /usr/local/share) and copy the configurations in /home/ and
/etc/. How does this differ from your "spawn"?

Haines


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-18 Thread agr

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 10:22:21AM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> Thanks very much, everyone.
> 
> I especially appreciate the dependency information with no bias. Just the
> facts is always appreciated on an emotional issue such as this.
> 
> The truth is that I can live with a stray library or a shim - but the rest
> leaves me concerned.
> 
> Setting aside all of the controversy, there seems to be one undeniable
> design fact.  Unless I am overlooking something relevant, Systemd is adding
> a single point of failure on a critical process chain. On a desktop, I don't
> care, but on a 24/7 server that is something I really can't afford.  Any
> server will eventually fail, but I don't feel comfortable risking cron
> timing, startup and logging failure all in one swoop by having systemd
> control everything.
> 
> I know you can disable portions of systemd, because I have, but the
> pervasive nature of the package dependencies makes it much harder to ignore.
> 
> From the sound of things, I'd very much like to give Debian 8 the benefit of
> the doubt.  I'll wait and see, if there are more posts and not dismiss it
> entirely.  Until more information comes in down the road, it is probably
> prudent for me to continue to look at a server migration plan that firmly
> does not include systemd.
> 
>

Hello TJ

I have been using Debian for almost 14 years continuosly, and i had to 
transfered 1 server to OpenBSD, because the comments in this list are 
uncertain; i 
can not wait for Jessi to do the transition. 

Bye.



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Re: Jack: was Slight New Sound Problem

2014-09-18 Thread Raffaele Morelli

On 18/09/14 at 11:09am, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 09:40:56 -0500
> "T.J. Duchene"  wrote:
> 
> > Good morning, Martin!
> > 
> > Before I can make suggestions, I need to know if you are using a
> > daemon such as Jack or PulseAudio or if you are using ALSA directly.
> 
> T.J (and anyone else),
> 
> I really want to use Jack, but every time I've tried, I failed
> miserably and gotten no sound. Is there some special mindset you need
> when installing/configuring Jack, and if so, where can I find out about
> it?

Well, it's quite straightforward to use jackd and no particular trick is needed.
Install jackd2 and its gui qjackctl and alsa-utils. Get rid or stop PulseAudio
and start qjackctl, see what happens and report (qjackctl has a nice message log
window)

Keep in mind that often no sound means that alsamixer volumes are muted or at 0 
level which
seems to be the default.

> My understanding of Jack (and please correct me if I'm wrong), is that
> it's like being able to patchcord together all sorts of software
> sound processor boxes, in whatever configuration I want. I'd *love* to
> be able to do that.

Yes, jack compliant applications can be routed from/to every where. Non
compliant apps can also be routed with little tweaking (eg. flashplayer, skype)

-- 
« Nunc est bibendum, nunc pede libero pulsanda tellus »

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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-18 Thread Martin Read


On 18/09/14 17:33, Reco wrote:

1) Unstable journald format. Good luck finding that exact version of
journalctl to read logs over next several years.


When journald was *introduced*, systemd-journald's log file format was 
not immediately finalized.


However, at the time of this e-mail, it appears to have been covered by 
the Interface Stability Promise for nearly a year *at a minimum*; as of 
24 Oct 2013 (the last time the page linked below was edited), journald's 
on-disk recording (Journal File Format) and on-wire network transfer 
(Journal Export Format) formats were definitely labelled as being 
covered by the Interface Stability Promise:


http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/InterfacePortabilityAndStabilityChart/

So I'm not inclined to worry much about the stability of the journal's 
format.



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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

2014-09-18 Thread Michael Fothergill

If your /etc/apt/sources.list file refers to your current distribution as
"stable" then once Jessie becomes the new "stable" then apt-get update
followed by apt-get dist-upgrade will work.

If your sources.list file calls it "wheezy" then you need to change it to
"jessie" before doing the apt-gets.

If you want to keep upgrading to the latest "testing" distribution, then
change "stable" or "wheezy" to "testing" and do the apt-gets.

Please can I ask a dumb question here.   My sources.list file was set to
testing and it also was hooked up to wheezy updates.  Was that unhelpful to
me once wheezy became stable?

Also, if you would continue being "testing" as I had tried to do (but ended
up having to reinstall as testing) was it right of me to keep the testing
repository links in there  and change the wheezy updates to Jessie updates
as I did.

Was I doing something wrong there that contributed to me not being able to
continue as testing without reinstalling?

Thanks

Michael Fothergill

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Gary Dale  wrote:

> On 18/09/14 01:30 PM, softwatt wrote:
>
>> Hello. How does one upgrade the distro? I have searched the web but I am
>> getting some contradictions, and I am hesitant to mess things up.
>>
>> All websites suggest updating the /etc/apt/sources.list file. This makes
>> a lot of sense. However, the consensus ends here. Beyond that, I have no
>> idea what's correct.
>>
>> Some suggest a simple `apt-get update` followed by an `apt-get
>> dis-upgrade`
>>
>> Some suggest:
>> apt-get update
>> apt-get install apt dpkg aptitude
>> apt-get --download-only dist-upgrade
>> apt-get dist-upgrade
>>
>> Some even suggest updating the kernel using and apt-get install kernel-*
>> stuff. (Subquestion: does dist-upgrade update the kernel?)
>>
>> Enlighten me! What is the proper way to do this?
>>
>>  If your /etc/apt/sources.list file refers to your current distribution
> as "stable" then once Jessie becomes the new "stable" then apt-get update
> followed by apt-get dist-upgrade will work.
>
> If your sources.list file calls it "wheezy" then you need to change it to
> "jessie" before doing the apt-gets.
>
> If you want to keep upgrading to the latest "testing" distribution, then
> change "stable" or "wheezy" to "testing" and do the apt-gets.
>
>
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>

Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

Erwan David writes:
> It is also importat to know if it is worth the effort to report bugs
> on software which happen in a systemd-shim or sysvinitcore without any
> systemd

Yes.  Provide patches when possible.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 17:04:02 +0100, J Rowan wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:53:21 +0100
> Brian  wrote:
> 
> > For anyone intending to install Jessie, which is the only thing which
> > matters for Debian and the immediate future, the practical
> > alternatives and direction to take have been described many times
> > over the past few months. In fact, in the last few days:
> > 
> >   
> > https://lists.debian.org/12092014224057.ff13b66f7...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
> >   
> > https://lists.debian.org/17092014175756.ef88cea78...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
> > 
> > You definitely need to
> > do: 
> >   apt-get install
> > sysvinit-core 
> > In addition you may also choose to
> > do: apt-get install
> > systemd-shim 
> > if you decide your installation needs it.
> > 
> > 
> Yes, this is understood, but is it the final word? We have a 'technology
> preview' of systemd in Wheezy, it will be the default in Jessie. Will
> it remain the default in the forseeable future or is it expected to
> become mandatory in a later release?

Memories; I'm singing along with Doris Day - Que Sera, Sera.

> I'm aware that nothing can possibly be set in stone yet, but the people
> responsible for systemd-shim and other compatibility components must
> have a fair idea whether these are intended as temporary workarounds
> until 'all' packages are compatible with systemd, or whether they are
> expected to remain permanent parts of Debian.

I'd guess that the systemd-shim developers don't see their package
as fulfilling the function you describe in your first option.

Jessie is all we have for the immediate future. We need to make it the
best release we are capable of producing.


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-18 Thread Slavko

Ahoj,

Dňa Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:53:21 +0100 Brian 
napísal:

> On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 09:44:49 +0100, Joe wrote:
> 
> > This is the basic purpose of this whole set of threads. Is there
> > *really* going to be a practical alternative to using systemd, and
> > if so, will Debian support it? It is, for example, perfectly
> > possible to use Open Office in testing or unstable but it isn't
> > available from the repositories for anything later than Wheezy. But
> > using an untracked Open Office won't prevent the use of anything
> > else, except possibly libreoffice unless care is taken.
> > 
> > So we're looking for some kind of direction here, hoping that
> > someone who actually knows for sure will tell us whether the use of
> > systemd as init will be completely unavoidable in future Debian
> > releases. If not, if it will only be the 'default', then it may be
> > worth putting a bit of effort into making an alternative practical.
> 
> For anyone intending to install Jessie, which is the only thing which
> matters for Debian and the immediate future, the practical
> alternatives and direction to take have been described many times
> over the past few months. In fact, in the last few days:
> 
>   
> https://lists.debian.org/12092014224057.ff13b66f7...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
>   
> https://lists.debian.org/17092014175756.ef88cea78...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
> 

Are you know, that this will work, or you are think, that this will
work? Beware, if one think, then this one don't know.

You are too quick. Your suggestions simple doesn't work everywhere, as
i posted more times here. Because you are able to find links, please
find them by self...

regards

-- 
Slavko
http://slavino.sk


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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

2014-09-18 Thread Gary Dale


On 18/09/14 01:30 PM, softwatt wrote:

Hello. How does one upgrade the distro? I have searched the web but I am
getting some contradictions, and I am hesitant to mess things up.

All websites suggest updating the /etc/apt/sources.list file. This makes
a lot of sense. However, the consensus ends here. Beyond that, I have no
idea what's correct.

Some suggest a simple `apt-get update` followed by an `apt-get dis-upgrade`

Some suggest:
apt-get update
apt-get install apt dpkg aptitude
apt-get --download-only dist-upgrade
apt-get dist-upgrade

Some even suggest updating the kernel using and apt-get install kernel-*
stuff. (Subquestion: does dist-upgrade update the kernel?)

Enlighten me! What is the proper way to do this?

If your /etc/apt/sources.list file refers to your current distribution 
as "stable" then once Jessie becomes the new "stable" then apt-get 
update followed by apt-get dist-upgrade will work.


If your sources.list file calls it "wheezy" then you need to change it 
to "jessie" before doing the apt-gets.


If you want to keep upgrading to the latest "testing" distribution, then 
change "stable" or "wheezy" to "testing" and do the apt-gets.



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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

2014-09-18 Thread Sven Hartge

softwatt  wrote:

> Hello. How does one upgrade the distro? I have searched the web but I
> am getting some contradictions, and I am hesitant to mess things up.

> All websites suggest updating the /etc/apt/sources.list file. This
> makes a lot of sense. However, the consensus ends here. Beyond that, I
> have no idea what's correct.

> Some suggest a simple `apt-get update` followed by an `apt-get
> dis-upgrade`

> Some suggest:
> apt-get update
> apt-get install apt dpkg aptitude
> apt-get --download-only dist-upgrade
> apt-get dist-upgrade

> Some even suggest updating the kernel using and apt-get install kernel-*
> stuff. (Subquestion: does dist-upgrade update the kernel?)

> Enlighten me! What is the proper way to do this?

The proper way is the way outlined in the relase notes.

That said: I normally use the way you mentioned above, only omitting the
"download-only" phase.

On some systems it has been necessary (during the Squeeze to Wheezy
upgrade) to first use only "apt-get upgrade" after upgrading apt and
dpkg and then issuing the full dist-upgrade as final step to get a
smoother upgrade. This where mostly systems which had already been
upgraded from Sarge to Etch to Lenny to Squeeze and had a good amount of
locally backported packages on them.

So YMMV, the older a system is the more problems or obscurities you have
to expect.

This leads to a newish trend in systems administration, facilitated by
widespread use of virtualisation or container techniques: never upgrade
a system to a new release, just "spawn" a new and fresh installed one
and copy your data/application/whatever over.

Combined with tools like Puppet/Chef/Ansible this provides you with a
reproducible and always "factory fresh" operating system without the
cobwebs of years of past upgrades in the basement.

But I digress.

Grüße,
Sven.

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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-18 Thread Slavko

Ahoj,

Dňa Thu, 18 Sep 2014 15:29:00 +0100 Lisi Reisz 
napísal:

> (Sorry, John.  Mea culpa.)
> 
> On Thursday 18 September 2014 14:00:45 John Hasler wrote:
> > Why do you refuse to install systemd-shim?  Just because it has
> > "systemd" in the name?
> >
> > Providing systemd-shim or similar is really about the only thing
> > Debian can do about upstreams deciding to make their packages
> > dependent on Systemd.  The Gnome and KDE situations would be no
> > different if Debian had decided to stick with Sysvinit.
> >
> > Learn to use FVWM.
> 
> Someone on the TDE list has just installed a functional Sid and TDE
> without a sniff of systemd.  Suspend isn't working yet.

I was try this some days ago (when latest systemd-shim goes into
testing). By my understand of the root of problem, the policykit based
users rights depends on libpam-systemd which relies on the
libsystemd-login0 information about active and/or local user logins.
And the libsystemd-login0 fails to provide correct info about user
logins, when the systemd (> 204) is not a PID 1 proces, due missing some
DBUS interface. As conclusion, i see that the dependency on the
policykit (and libsystemd-login0) in practice indirectly forces the
systemd (as PID 1), if full funkcionality is wanted (and who will want
partially working system?)

From my point of view, the systemd-shim is not a alternative to systemd
(as PID 1) in situations, where the policykit takes into play. I see
the failed suspend as minor problem, but by this, the regular user
cannot power off/reboot the machine from local XFCE session (due
insufficient user rights) too and this i see as a problem, e.g. because
i am not willing to learn my wife to use sudo for this...

BTW, the suspend is not working for me with the systemd (as PID 1) too,
but this is another problem, where the systemd is only as go-between
and problem is somewhere between the kernel and my NVidia VGA. But,
regardless from where the problem comes, it results that it doesn't
works with systemd and works with SysV (pm-utils).

I can suggest (and confirm), that the systemd-shim works without any
problems with the systemd (= 204) and with the XFCE. Then if someone is
involved, it can download all the systemd related packages from
http://snapshot.debian.org/package/systemd/204-14/. But this solution
expects to hold the old version of udev too and i afraid, when another
versioned dependency appear and count of holded packages will grow.

But to be complete, i tried to upgrade one of my virtual machine with
old testing (before systemd as default) some weeks ago (systemd
v. 208-6). This machine is completely without X server (without any X
app), with some testing servers (web, dns, etc) only. The dist-upgrade
doesn't forced me to install the systemd (as PID 1) and i had to
manually install it, to i can test it. And all works without visible
problems (except lack of my knowledge and experiences with using the
systemd ;-). I didn't test if the systemd-shim is working here, but i
think that there will be no problems.

And as latest, i will be happy, if someone will report here, when some
of newest versions of systemd (or systemd-shim|cgmanager, etc) works
fain with systemd-shim and the policykit.

regards

-- 
Slavko
http://slavino.sk

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Re: streaming over ssh and decrypting a file

2014-09-18 Thread Ross Boylan

Thank you for the pointer.  Unfortunately, markov is dying and it is
doubtful I can install anything new.  The root file system is
read-only and /var is full (though I can probably make some room on
the latter).
Ross

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Reco  wrote:
>  Hi.
>
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:09:53 -0700
> Ross Boylan  wrote:
>
>> You need a passphrase to unlock the secret key for
>> user: "Ross Boylan (work) "
>> 2048-bit ELG-E key, ID xxx created 2014-09-17 (main key ID yyy)
>
> Try installing gpg-agent, launching it on markov, and store your
> private key in it before using gpg. That should help you to avoid gpg
> prompt.
>
> Reco
>
>
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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

J Rowan writes:
> Yes, this is understood, but is it the final word? We have a
> 'technology preview' of systemd in Wheezy, it will be the default in
> Jessie. Will it remain the default in the forseeable future or is it
> expected to become mandatory in a later release?

Debian policy is that for the foreseeable future alternative init
systems will be supported as long as there are developers who are
willing and able to support them (but then, this is the Debian policy on
pretty much everything).  Whether or not your favorite desktop
conglomeration will be able to live without Systemd will be largely up
to its upstream.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:37:15 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

> Reco writes:
> > Oh, rly? Installing KDE4 on Debian/kFreeBSD does not pull systemd,
> > installing KDE4 on Debian/kLinux does. So, Debian project apparently
> > can influence KDE4 dependencies by using certain build options or
> > certain patches.
> 
> That's the FreeBSD port.  Not the same upstream package.
> 

Wait, wait, wait. You mean they actually build all KDE4 with apps and
libraries from the different source? packages.debian.org does not
reflect this.

Reco


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Upgrading to Jessie

Hello. How does one upgrade the distro? I have searched the web but I am
getting some contradictions, and I am hesitant to mess things up.

All websites suggest updating the /etc/apt/sources.list file. This makes
a lot of sense. However, the consensus ends here. Beyond that, I have no
idea what's correct.

Some suggest a simple `apt-get update` followed by an `apt-get dis-upgrade`

Some suggest:
apt-get update
apt-get install apt dpkg aptitude
apt-get --download-only dist-upgrade
apt-get dist-upgrade

Some even suggest updating the kernel using and apt-get install kernel-*
stuff. (Subquestion: does dist-upgrade update the kernel?)

Enlighten me! What is the proper way to do this?



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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-18 Thread Erwan David

Le 18/09/2014 18:04, J Rowan a écrit :
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:53:21 +0100
> Brian  wrote:
>
>> On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 09:44:49 +0100, Joe wrote:
>>
>>> So we're looking for some kind of direction here, hoping that
>>> someone who actually knows for sure will tell us whether the use of
>>> systemd as init will be completely unavoidable in future Debian
>>> releases. If not, if it will only be the 'default', then it may be
>>> worth putting a bit of effort into making an alternative practical.
>> For anyone intending to install Jessie, which is the only thing which
>> matters for Debian and the immediate future, the practical
>> alternatives and direction to take have been described many times
>> over the past few months. In fact, in the last few days:
>>
>>   
>> https://lists.debian.org/12092014224057.ff13b66f7...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
>>   
>> https://lists.debian.org/17092014175756.ef88cea78...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
>>
>> You definitely need to
>> do: 
>>   apt-get install
>> sysvinit-core 
>> In addition you may also choose to
>> do: apt-get install
>> systemd-shim 
>> if you decide your installation needs it.
>>
>>
> Yes, this is understood, but is it the final word? We have a 'technology
> preview' of systemd in Wheezy, it will be the default in Jessie. Will
> it remain the default in the forseeable future or is it expected to
> become mandatory in a later release?
>
> I'm aware that nothing can possibly be set in stone yet, but the people
> responsible for systemd-shim and other compatibility components must
> have a fair idea whether these are intended as temporary workarounds
> until 'all' packages are compatible with systemd, or whether they are
> expected to remain permanent parts of Debian.
>
It is also importat to know if it is worth the effort to report bugs on
software which happen in a systemd-shim or sysvinitcore without any
systemd (yes I have a server in jessie without any systemd at all, and I
hope it stays this way, because it uses policy-rc.d which last time I
had a look had no equivalent in systemd world).


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Re: streaming over ssh and decrypting a file

 Hi.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:09:53 -0700
Ross Boylan  wrote:

> You need a passphrase to unlock the secret key for
> user: "Ross Boylan (work) "
> 2048-bit ELG-E key, ID xxx created 2014-09-17 (main key ID yyy)

Try installing gpg-agent, launching it on markov, and store your
private key in it before using gpg. That should help you to avoid gpg
prompt.

Reco


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Re: Slight New Sound Problem

2014-09-18 Thread Marko Randjelovic

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 06:14:00 -0500
"Martin G. McCormick"  wrote:

> Marko Randjelovic writes:
> > Did you try with another kernel?
> 
>   Well, indirectly. As I mentioned, the system has always
> exhibited this behavior slightly for several years through a
> number of kernels. The biggest change, though, was when I
> changed out the conventional 10 GB hard drive for a slightly
> larger flash drive that was also about 15 years newer.
> 
>   I think it is some sort of bus contention problem. The
> system has two IDE controllers. One has the boot drive on the
> master position plus a second conventional hard drive on the
> slave position for /home. The other IDE controller has a CDRW
> drive in the master position and a second CDRW drive in slave.
> I can always make the sound problem worse by doing
> disk-intensive activity on the controller that has the two fixed
> disk drives.

If I were you I would download kernel source to experiment with
relevant kernel options, but first try:
1. use hdparm to see if your hard drives support DMA and if it is
activated;
2. change IO scheduler to 'deadline' by adding to kernel boot line
"elevator=deadline".

Kind regards

-- 
http://markorandjelovic.hopto.org

One should not be afraid of humans.
Well, I am not afraid of humans, but of what is inhuman in them.
Ivo Andric, "Signs near the travel-road"


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Re: Jack: was Slight New Sound Problem

2014-09-18 Thread Peter Nieman


On 18/09/14 17:09, Steve Litt wrote:

I really want to use Jack, but every time I've tried, I failed
miserably and gotten no sound. Is there some special mindset you need
when installing/configuring Jack, and if so, where can I find out about
it?


There's a graphical frontend called qjackctl where you can make 
connections and change settings manually. Did you try that?


p.


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Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate

2014-09-18 Thread David L. Craig

On 14Sep18:1449+0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 08:06:21AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> > David L. Craig writes:
> > > Is this viewpoint typical of DDs?
> > 
> > No, but the attitude is, unfortunately, quite common.
> 
> The grandparent poster isn't a DD.

That is good to learn.  Ironically, I have been recovering
from some strange Sid upgrade issues involving systemd for
past half day--I'm still uncertain what went south, but I
seem to be back with /sbin/init for now.  Unfortunately,
Sid seems to break my toys at the worst times.  Sigh...
-- 

May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!

Dave_Craig__
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
 You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
 Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_

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streaming over ssh and decrypting a file

2014-09-18 Thread Ross Boylan

I am trying do something like
$ ssh kornak "cat markov/turtle.Lenny00.gpg" | gpg -d - | sudo cmp -
/dev/turtle/Lenny00

But that doesn't work, nor do even simpler versions. How can I
achieve the goal which is to
1. stream the file from the remote system (kornak) to the local system (markov).
2. decrypt the stream.
3. cmp the decrypted stream to the original device /dev/turtle/Lenny00
(a logical volume). root privileges are necessary to access the
device.

markov has insufficient room to hold the backup, and so I need to
stream it. There seems to be something about the prompts that cause
the process to hang.

Everything is operating within a session that has ssh-agent running,
since the prompting needed by ssh was also screwing things up. Even a
simpler version without sudo fails:

# this works fine--no prompts
ross@markov:~$ ssh kornak "cat markov/turtle.Lenny00.gpg" | head -c 20 | hd

#this doesn't-- gpg prompts
ross@markov:~$ ssh kornak "cat markov/turtle.Lenny00.gpg" | gpg -d - |
head -c 20 | hd

You need a passphrase to unlock the secret key for
user: "Ross Boylan (work) "
2048-bit ELG-E key, ID xxx created 2014-09-17 (main key ID yyy)

Enter passphrase:
# After entering the passphrase, nothing happens
# No activity on remote or local system
# After several minutes I hit ^c
gpg: Interrupt caught ... exiting

Thanks.
Ross Boylan

P.S. files created with
ross@markov:~$ date; time sudo cat /dev/turtle/Lenny00 | gpg -e -r
ross.boy...@ucsf.edu | ssh kornak "cat > markov/turtle.Lenny00.gpg"
This needed to be within an ssh-agent session to avoid getting prompts
from ssh and gpg, which seemed to step on each other.
Note that it does require a gpg prompt.

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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-18 Thread J Rowan

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:53:21 +0100
Brian  wrote:

> On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 09:44:49 +0100, Joe wrote:
> 

> > 
> > So we're looking for some kind of direction here, hoping that
> > someone who actually knows for sure will tell us whether the use of
> > systemd as init will be completely unavoidable in future Debian
> > releases. If not, if it will only be the 'default', then it may be
> > worth putting a bit of effort into making an alternative practical.
> 
> For anyone intending to install Jessie, which is the only thing which
> matters for Debian and the immediate future, the practical
> alternatives and direction to take have been described many times
> over the past few months. In fact, in the last few days:
> 
>   
> https://lists.debian.org/12092014224057.ff13b66f7...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
>   
> https://lists.debian.org/17092014175756.ef88cea78...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
> 
> You definitely need to
> do: 
>   apt-get install
> sysvinit-core 
> In addition you may also choose to
> do: apt-get install
> systemd-shim 
> if you decide your installation needs it.
> 
> 
Yes, this is understood, but is it the final word? We have a 'technology
preview' of systemd in Wheezy, it will be the default in Jessie. Will
it remain the default in the forseeable future or is it expected to
become mandatory in a later release?

I'm aware that nothing can possibly be set in stone yet, but the people
responsible for systemd-shim and other compatibility components must
have a fair idea whether these are intended as temporary workarounds
until 'all' packages are compatible with systemd, or whether they are
expected to remain permanent parts of Debian.

-- 
Joe
-- 
JRE Trading Ltd
Registered in England and Wales No.3558355
Registered Address: 50 Cranham Road RM11 2AA
VAT Registration GB 420118116


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

Reco writes:
> Oh, rly? Installing KDE4 on Debian/kFreeBSD does not pull systemd,
> installing KDE4 on Debian/kLinux does. So, Debian project apparently
> can influence KDE4 dependencies by using certain build options or
> certain patches.

That's the FreeBSD port.  Not the same upstream package.

-- 
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Re: Jack: was Slight New Sound Problem

2014-09-18 Thread Joel Roth

Steve Litt wrote:
> I really want to use Jack, but every time I've tried, I failed
> miserably and gotten no sound. Is there some special mindset you need
> when installing/configuring Jack, and if so, where can I find out about
> it?

http://jackaudio.org/

http://jackaudio.org/faq/

https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaudio.github.com/wiki

Also, you can try the Linux Audio Users mailing list.

> My understanding of Jack (and please correct me if I'm wrong), is that
> it's like being able to patchcord together all sorts of software
> sound processor boxes, in whatever configuration I want. I'd *love* to
> be able to do that.

Yes, JACK is brilliant, mature, designed for professional audio use,
lightweight, and has been ported to OSX.

There are two version of jackd, the JACK routing daemon,
jackd1 and jackd2.  They differ slightly, but both work fine.

There are a few wrinkles if you want to use Pulse Audio
*and* JACK. 

And now a brief plug: if you want recording, playback,
mixing, effects processing etc. and don't need video, the
most lightweight and powerful tool is probably Ecasound. The
easiest way to use Ecasound is Nama. ;-)

The Debian package for Nama is out of date, but it does
install from CPAN using 'cpanm Audio::Nama' or 'cpan
Audio::Nama'.

If you want to mix audio and MIDI, and need a kitchen sink
of features, other apps (Ardour, Qtractor, Rosegarden) may
be easier.

Joel

> Thanks,
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
> Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance
> 
> 
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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 16:16:40 + (UTC)
Curt  wrote:

> On 2014-09-18, Reco  wrote:
> >
> > Oh, rly? Installing KDE4 on Debian/kFreeBSD does not pull systemd,
> 
> Debian/kFreeBSD has a systemd port to pull in?

None that I'm aware of. But why existence of certain software must lead
to dependency on it? Which, as a previous example shows, *can* be
avoided.

Reco


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

 Hi.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 17:56:00 +0200
B  wrote:

> You'd better, as it is even worse: junkD journal is in binary format
> and this journal isn't ACID compliant, so any error will render it
> unreadable; guess what? It has been rejected as "not a bug"
> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=64116); note that
> coredumps are also written to this kind of "journal"…

Out of curiosity - how exactly being ACID-compliant helps to read a
corrupted RDBMS table?
What's exactly that bad to keep all coredumps (they're blobs anyway) in
one place (a big blob, but it's *one* blob) vs spreading them all other
filesystem (s)?

I'm not that big fan of binary logs myself, but your arguments seem out
of place somehow.

Better arguments would be:

1) Unstable journald format. Good luck finding that exact version of
journalctl to read logs over next several years.

2) Which leads us to - an upgrade can render all your logs unreadable.
That's a real joy, isn't it?

3) Braindead pull-based journald logs replication, as opposed to a
conventional push-based one that syslog is using.

Reco

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Re: screen 0: in putty title bar

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 17:33:18 +0100
Apero Maxx  wrote:

> PROMPT_COMMAND='printf "\033k%s@%s:%s\033\\" "${USER}"
> "${HOSTNAME%%.*}" "${PWD/#$HOME/~}"'

Check ~/.bashrc for the right string.


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-18 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Thursday 18 September 2014 16:49:47 Reco wrote:
> And, for the record, I refuse to consider using or abstaining of usage
> of systemd as a 'fault'.

Fault is also means responsibility.  That is the meaning I was using.  Of 
course using it or not is not a "fault".


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apache2-suexec-custom, SuexecUserGroup directive

2014-09-18 Thread Richard Lewis

Hi there,

I'm trying to set up gitweb. As part of this, I'm trying to make
Apache execute the gitweb.cgi as user the 'git' (UID 1002) using
suEXEC.

To achieve this, I've:

 - installed the apache2-suexec-custom package
 - added /etc/apache2/suexec/git containing:

/srv/h1
# 

   i.e., document root is /srv/h1 and userdirs are not allowed.
 - installed the gitweb.cgi in /srv/h1
 - created a  config in /etc/apache2/sites-available/h1
   like this:


ServerName h1.my.domain
SuexecUserGroup git git
DocumentRoot /srv/h1
ErrorLog  /var/log/apache2/h1.error.log
CustomLog /var/log/apache2/h1.access.log combined

Options ExecCGI +FollowSymLinks +SymLinksIfOwnerMatch
AllowOverride All
order allow,deny
Allow from all
AddHandler cgi-script cgi
DirectoryIndex gitweb.cgi



The idea is that Apache executes the gitweb.cgi as user 'git' because
it's instructed to by the SuexecUserGroup directive. And suEXEC allows
/srv/h1/gitweb.cgi to be executed because the directory /srv/h1 is
declared as suEXEC's docroot in /etc/apache2/suexec/git, and
/etc/apache2/suexec/git is the operative configuration file because
gitweb.cgi is being executed as user 'git'.

However, when I actually try and GET / on h1.my.domain I receive
500. The Apache error log says:

suexec policy violation: see suexec log for more details

And the suexec error log says:

[2014-09-18 17:02:02]: uid: (1002/git) gid: (1002/git) cmd: gitweb.cgi
[2014-09-18 17:02:02]: command not in docroot (/srv/h1/gitweb.cgi)

Lastly, I found that I could actually make gitweb.cgi execute
successfully by altering the /etc/apache2/suexec/www-data config like
this:

/srv/h1
public_html/cgi-bin

i.e., replacing the default /var/www docroot with /srv/h1. This
implies that suEXEC is being called as www-data, and not git. Does
that sound right?

Can anyone explain what's going on here?

Thanks,
Richard


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Re: screen 0: in putty title bar



On 18/09/2014 16:30, Reco wrote:

  Hi.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 16:19:59 +0100
Aero Maxx  wrote:


Hi Everyone,

I'm in the process of moving from fedora to debian.

But I have one question about the use of screen when I use it, the title
bar in putty doesn't change like it does in fedora to show/remind me
that I am in a screen, I was wondering how do I change this in debian ?

Try adding this to your /etc/screenrc:

hardstatus on
hardstatus string "[screen %n%?: %t%?] %h"

Reco

Hi Everyone,

This works great, and was a good starting point in the right direction, 
I've done a bit of playing around and checking what the difference is on 
fedora and debian, and can see lots but what I think I need to do now is 
something to do with this from fedora.


PROMPT_COMMAND='printf "\033k%s@%s:%s\033\\" "${USER}" "${HOSTNAME%%.*}" 
"${PWD/#$HOME/~}"'


Id like it to show [screen 0: daniel@hostname:/home/daniel] in the putty 
title bar.


Also would like for it so show [daniel@hostname daniel]# at the command 
prompt part.


Thanks
Daniel


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-18 Thread Curt

On 2014-09-18, Reco  wrote:
>
> Oh, rly? Installing KDE4 on Debian/kFreeBSD does not pull systemd,

Debian/kFreeBSD has a systemd port to pull in?


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:22:21 -0500
"T.J. Duchene"  wrote:

>  From the sound of things, I'd very much like to give Debian 8 the 
> benefit of the doubt.  I'll wait and see, if there are more posts and 
> not dismiss it entirely.  Until more information comes in down the
> road, it is probably prudent for me to continue to look at a server
> migration plan that firmly does not include systemd.

You'd better, as it is even worse: junkD journal is in binary format
and this journal isn't ACID compliant, so any error will render it
unreadable; guess what? It has been rejected as "not a bug"
(https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=64116); note that
coredumps are also written to this kind of "journal"…

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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 16:24:56 +0100
Lisi Reisz  wrote:

> I hear and pass on that at least once it can, in that one person has done it, 
> and you complain because KDE4 still needs systemd.  That is *not* Debian's 
> fault.  The Debian project is not responsible for KDE4.  It is responsible 
> for Sid.

Oh, rly? Installing KDE4 on Debian/kFreeBSD does not pull systemd,
installing KDE4 on Debian/kLinux does. So, Debian project apparently can
influence KDE4 dependencies by using certain build options or certain
patches.
And, for the record, I refuse to consider using or abstaining of usage
of systemd as a 'fault'.

Reco

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Re: Slight New Sound Problem

2014-09-18 Thread Martin G. McCormick

"T.J. Duchene" writes:
> Good morning, Martin!
> 
> 
> Before I can make suggestions, I need to know if you are using a daemon
> such as Jack or PulseAudio or if you are using ALSA directly.
> 
> 
> Thanks,

I am using pulseaudio and alsa. Normally, if I am listening to
something it is through mplayer but aplay also is effected by
the problem.
It seems that any high-quality audio application now is
showing the glitches.
As an example, I wrote a C program a few years ago that turns
the sound card in to a variable-length audio delay. When OSU has
a football game on both TV and radio, we want to hear our home
sports announcers and see the game on TV. Usually, the radio is
10 to 20 seconds ahead of the video and my trusty delay makes it
possible to get them both synced. The card is set to a 32000
sample-per-second rate and /dev/dsp is opened for writing at the
start of the program. The read pointer is set to a character in
the buffer that is far enough away to equal the needed delay.
the write and read pointers chase each other round and round the
buffer.
I can now hear the glitches on that application, also.
A hint to the wise, if you write a delay like this you
had better write half-level silence values to the ring buffer
when initializing the program or you will hear seconds of
extremely loud static thundering out of the speakers until the
read pointer finally sees output from the sound card. With the
initialized buffer, you hear nothing until sound comes out.

Martin

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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-18 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Thursday 18 September 2014 16:02:56 Reco wrote:
>  Hi.
>
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 15:29:00 +0100
>
> Lisi Reisz  wrote:
> > Someone on the TDE list has just installed a functional Sid and TDE
> > without a sniff of systemd.  Suspend isn't working yet.
> >
> > I haven't asked for proof!
>
> Does not seems an achievement, given that TDE is a fork for KDE3. Now,
> installing full-blown KDE4 in all its glory without a smallest part of
> systemd - that would be something.

Oh, for goodness sake, what is the matter with this list.  Some people have 
been going on and on that Debian Sid and Jessie can't run without systemd.  
And some people have been asking a genuine question as to whether it can.  

I hear and pass on that at least once it can, in that one person has done it, 
and you complain because KDE4 still needs systemd.  That is *not* Debian's 
fault.  The Debian project is not responsible for KDE4.  It is responsible 
for Sid.

Lisi

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Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-18 Thread T.J. Duchene


Thanks very much, everyone.

I especially appreciate the dependency information with no bias. Just 
the facts is always appreciated on an emotional issue such as this.


The truth is that I can live with a stray library or a shim - but the 
rest leaves me concerned.


Setting aside all of the controversy, there seems to be one undeniable 
design fact.  Unless I am overlooking something relevant, Systemd is 
adding a single point of failure on a critical process chain. On a 
desktop, I don't care, but on a 24/7 server that is something I really 
can't afford.  Any server will eventually fail, but I don't feel 
comfortable risking cron timing, startup and logging failure all in one 
swoop by having systemd control everything.


I know you can disable portions of systemd, because I have, but the 
pervasive nature of the package dependencies makes it much harder to 
ignore.


From the sound of things, I'd very much like to give Debian 8 the 
benefit of the doubt.  I'll wait and see, if there are more posts and 
not dismiss it entirely.  Until more information comes in down the road, 
it is probably prudent for me to continue to look at a server migration 
plan that firmly does not include systemd.




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Re: screen 0: in putty title bar


On 18/09/2014 16:30, Reco wrote:

  Hi.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 16:19:59 +0100
Aero Maxx  wrote:


Hi Everyone,

I'm in the process of moving from fedora to debian.

But I have one question about the use of screen when I use it, the title
bar in putty doesn't change like it does in fedora to show/remind me
that I am in a screen, I was wondering how do I change this in debian ?

Try adding this to your /etc/screenrc:

hardstatus on
hardstatus string "[screen %n%?: %t%?] %h"

Reco

Thats amazing thank you ever so much! It works a treat.

Daniel.


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Re: screen 0: in putty title bar

 Hi.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 16:19:59 +0100
Aero Maxx  wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I'm in the process of moving from fedora to debian.
> 
> But I have one question about the use of screen when I use it, the title 
> bar in putty doesn't change like it does in fedora to show/remind me 
> that I am in a screen, I was wondering how do I change this in debian ?

Try adding this to your /etc/screenrc:

hardstatus on
hardstatus string "[screen %n%?: %t%?] %h"

Reco


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screen 0: in putty title bar


Hi Everyone,

I'm in the process of moving from fedora to debian.

But I have one question about the use of screen when I use it, the title 
bar in putty doesn't change like it does in fedora to show/remind me 
that I am in a screen, I was wondering how do I change this in debian ?


Thanks
Daniel.


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

 Hi.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 15:29:00 +0100
Lisi Reisz  wrote:
 
> Someone on the TDE list has just installed a functional Sid and TDE without a 
> sniff of systemd.  Suspend isn't working yet.
> 
> I haven't asked for proof!

Does not seems an achievement, given that TDE is a fork for KDE3. Now,
installing full-blown KDE4 in all its glory without a smallest part of
systemd - that would be something.

Reco


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Jack: was Slight New Sound Problem

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 09:40:56 -0500
"T.J. Duchene"  wrote:

> Good morning, Martin!
> 
> Before I can make suggestions, I need to know if you are using a
> daemon such as Jack or PulseAudio or if you are using ALSA directly.

T.J (and anyone else),

I really want to use Jack, but every time I've tried, I failed
miserably and gotten no sound. Is there some special mindset you need
when installing/configuring Jack, and if so, where can I find out about
it?

My understanding of Jack (and please correct me if I'm wrong), is that
it's like being able to patchcord together all sorts of software
sound processor boxes, in whatever configuration I want. I'd *love* to
be able to do that.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

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Re: Let's have a vote!

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 08:10:17 +0200
Mart van de Wege  wrote:

> Steve Litt  writes:

> > A) Twine and baling wire is better than monolithic entanglement.
> 
> Yeah, after this I'm really not going to take you seriously anymore.
> >
> > B) If you try Daemontools, you just might switch your view of which
> > is twine and baling wire, 
> 
> Yeah, mixing sysvinit and daemontools, especially if you only do this
> to try and duplicate systemd features, is twine and baling wire. You
> might want to check your assumptions, you don't know what I use at
> work. Here's a hint: I'm a sysadmin. 

Oo, a sysadmin, I'm impressed. You win the debate on that fact
alone!

And, because you're a sysadmin, you can be forgiven for not
understanding the future consequences of software whose every component
needs to know the business of every other component, as well as the
components of all sorts of other programs that happen to be in its
environment. 

But just for fun, why don't you try Daemontools on a couple of daemons?
Maybe to daemonize a regular looping program that one of your company's
developers wrote. You just might like it.

And as far as the twine and bailing wire aspect, Daemontools is so
incredibly simple that you can document what you did with about 6 hours
of writing, so anybody can follow in your footsteps. Really, you should
try it.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

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Slight New Sound Problem

2014-09-18 Thread T.J. Duchene


Good morning, Martin!

Before I can make suggestions, I need to know if you are using a daemon 
such as Jack or PulseAudio or if you are using ALSA directly.


Thanks,
T.J.


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Re: Let's have a vote!

2014-09-18 Thread Dan Ritter

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 08:10:17AM +0200, Mart van de Wege wrote:
> Steve Litt  writes:
> 
> > On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 11:49:52 +0200
> > Mart van de Wege  wrote:
> >
> >> Steve Litt  writes:
> >> 
> >> >
> >> > And last but not least is the alternative of holding your nose and
> >> > using systemd. If I go that route, the first thing I'm going to do
> >> > is remove daemons from systemd's control and move them to
> >> > Daemontools. As a matter of fact, I've created a cron replacement
> >> > in Python, which tonight I'm going to daemonize using Daemontools.
> >> > I'm getting a lot of Daemontools practice, because no matter what
> >> > my init, Daemontools might end up being a better alternative for
> >> > most of my daemons.
> >> >
> >> I really don't get this. In your distaste for systemd you end up
> >> reimplenting it with twine and baling wire. This is not logical,
> >> rational disagreement, this is cutting off your nose to spite your
> >> face.
> >
> > A) Twine and baling wire is better than monolithic entanglement.
> 
> Yeah, after this I'm really not going to take you seriously anymore.
> >
> > B) If you try Daemontools, you just might switch your view of which is
> >twine and baling wire, 
> 
> Yeah, mixing sysvinit and daemontools, especially if you only do this to
> try and duplicate systemd features, is twine and baling wire. You might
> want to check your assumptions, you don't know what I use at
> work. Here's a hint: I'm a sysadmin. 

Strangely, I've been using sysvinit and daemontools on Debian
for years and years. At work. To run services that handle
hundreds of millions of dollars of other people's money.

I'm a sysadmin, too.

-dsr-


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-18 Thread Lisi Reisz

(Sorry, John.  Mea culpa.)

On Thursday 18 September 2014 14:00:45 John Hasler wrote:
> Why do you refuse to install systemd-shim?  Just because it has
> "systemd" in the name?
>
> Providing systemd-shim or similar is really about the only thing Debian
> can do about upstreams deciding to make their packages dependent on
> Systemd.  The Gnome and KDE situations would be no different if Debian
> had decided to stick with Sysvinit.
>
> Learn to use FVWM.

Someone on the TDE list has just installed a functional Sid and TDE without a 
sniff of systemd.  Suspend isn't working yet.

I haven't asked for proof!

Lisi


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[Wheezy] PIL to Pillow migration

2014-09-18 Thread Stanislas Guerra

Hi all,

Is there a recommended way to replace the PIL by Pillow (and also install
Pillow without a previous PIL package installed) on a Wheezy box ?

The Pillow documentation
 says that
prior to install Pillow you have to remove the PIL ; and also that Debian
already provides Pillow instead of PIL which
is not the case according to the package description (python-imaging).

I am a bit confused by the packages names / informations on my Wheezy
platform :

1. python-imaging  seems
to provide the original/now unmaintained PIL and to manage dependencies.
2. I have a *python-pillow* package with no dependencies and no maintainer
(@5b3923d6a5bb). *Google python-pillow* gives almost no result...
3. Looks like in testing/unstable, everything as changed :
  3.1. There is a *pillow* 
source package ;
  3.2. python-pil  - which
actually is Pillow - is the package to install instead of python-imaging
  3.3 python-imaging  is
now a compatibility package between PIL and Pillow (to fix the *import
Image // from PIL import Image* incompat).

Thanks in advance for any clarification.


$ sudo cat /etc/apt/sources.list
# puppet managed
# serveur puppetmaster01
# distrib wheezy
deb http://ftp2.fr.debian.org/debian wheezy main non-free contrib
deb-src http://ftp2.fr.debian.org/debian wheezy main non-free contrib

deb http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main contrib non-free

# wheezy-updates, previously known as 'volatile'
deb http://ftp2.fr.debian.org/debian wheezy-updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://ftp2.fr.debian.org/debian wheezy-updates main contrib
non-free


$ aptitude show python-pillow
Paquet : python-pillow
Nouveau: oui
État: non installé
Automatiquement installé: non
Version : 2.3.1
Priorité : supplémentaire
Section : default
Responsable : <@5b3923d6a5bb>
Architecture : amd64
Taille décompressée : 2 685 k
Description : Python Imaging Library (Fork)

Site : http://python-imaging.github.io/


---
Stanislas

Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate

2014-09-18 Thread Jonathan Dowland

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 08:06:21AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> David L. Craig writes:
> > Is this viewpoint typical of DDs?
> 
> No, but the attitude is, unfortunately, quite common.

The grandparent poster isn't a DD.


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Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate

On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 09:15:57 -0400
The Wanderer  wrote:

[SNIP LOT OF REASONABLE THINGS (from The Wanderer)]

I would add one thing to what you said, may be rants are filtered
by devs (but that I doubt, intelligent people usually keep the
temperature of their projects, even if the thermometer is growing
bigger;), but as the rant is spreading among blogs (and even LKML),
it'll end up to attract large media reporting.

That is a thing, whatever you're doing wrong, you usually wanna
avoid, especially when articles are made by skillful and
respected people.

So, yes, rumbling noise can (and I hope, will) be a very good thing
at the end.

-- 
 My mother reading the newspaper, an article about a Siamese who 
  just have two heads…
 All she has to say to me is "Do you think when she hair cut, she
  pays for one or two?"


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Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate

2014-09-18 Thread The Wanderer

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 09/18/2014 at 12:36 AM, Raffaele Morelli wrote:

> On 17/09/14 at 09:17am, John Hasler wrote:
> 
>> Mart van de Wege writes:
>>> That's funny, because I keep seeing the same names coming up.
>> 
>> And I see the same names coming up in the anti anti systemd rant 
>> rants.
>> 
>> Quit ranting, ok?  If you don't actually have anything to say
>> don't say it.  If you do, say it and ignore the ranters.
> 
> Delete key works perfectly and fast here BTW, none of the posters 
> (spammers) is a debian developer and AFAIK it's not going to be.
> 
> That given, can someone explain what's the use in those debates in 
> which your decision making power it's less than a pigeon shit on a 
> coat in the middle of a storm?

Noise helps make it clear that there is objection, and can help make it
clear the magnitude and/or the extent of that objection; in theory, this
can then inform the thinking of the decision-makers, in assessing
whether a particular decision (including whether to go back on, or
details of how to implement, an earlier decision) is appropriate.

Whether the decision-makers care about the existence, much less the
magnitude or the extent, of objection to the decisions which have been
taken is another question. If they don't, then the noise can potentially
help serve a separate purpose, by virtue of being an irritant; if the
noise is irritating enough, they may decide it's worth doing things
differently to get rid of the objections and thereby get rid of the
noise. In other words, "if you don't think X is a problem for you
directly, we'll make X a problem for you indirectly by not giving you
any peace about it".

That latter angle doesn't work very well when the decision-makers in
question can simply filter all of the noise out (whether by killfiles or
by moderation or similar), of course, and even less well when they
aren't in a position to see it in the first place - which they mostly
aren't, here, AFAICT. But it is something which may be part of the
reasoning (if you can call it that) behind deciding to engage in these
"debates".

Plus, of course, these discussions enable those who have objections to
be aware of the existence of others out there who may agree with them,
to share resources with those others (and with anyone interested who may
not engage in the discussions), and potentially to band together in
pursuit of alternatives - whether creating new ones, or simply finding
practical ways to implement and use ones which already exist. Which can
hardly be a bad thing, can it?

- -- 
   The Wanderer

Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate

David L. Craig writes:
> Is this viewpoint typical of DDs?

No, but the attitude is, unfortunately, quite common.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

Why do you refuse to install systemd-shim?  Just because it has
"systemd" in the name?

Providing systemd-shim or similar is really about the only thing Debian
can do about upstreams deciding to make their packages dependent on
Systemd.  The Gnome and KDE situations would be no different if Debian
had decided to stick with Sysvinit.

Learn to use FVWM.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: applications missing after dist-upgrade

Martin Read writes:
> unstable is allowed to contain packages with RC (release-critical)
> bugs. testing isn't.

More accurately, packages can be uploaded to Unstable without regard to
dependencies.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: View on UNIX purism in Linux Community

2014-09-18 Thread Darac Marjal

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 02:48:44PM +0200, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:
> John Hasler writes:
>  > Lisi writes:
>  > > It is a complete misunderstanding (misinformation?) that [the
>  > > countries that constitute the UK] are merely States
>  > 
>  > It is a complete misunderstanding that the states that constitute the USA
>  > are merely provinces.
> 
> and none of them comes in .deb .


$ apt show   alabama  alaska   arizona   arkansas  california   colorado
connecticut  delaware  florida  georgia hawaii  idaho  illonois  indiana
iowa  kansas kentucky  louisiana maine  maryland massachusetts  michigan
minnesota mississippi  missouri montana  nebraska  nevada  ohio oklahoma
oregon  pennsylvania tennessee  texas utah  vermont virginia  washington
wisconsin wyoming[1]

N: Unable to locate package alabama
...
...
N: Unable to locate package wyoming
E: No packages found

Oh yes. That actually Quite Interesting that there are no packages named
after states within Debian.

[1] I didn't consider it likely that any of the two-word states would
have packages

> 
> -- 
>  /\   ___Ubuntu: ancient
> /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_   African word
>   //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can
> \/ coltivatore diretto di software   not install
>  già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian"
> 
> Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO
> 
> 
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Re: View on UNIX purism in Linux Community

2014-09-18 Thread Gian Uberto Lauri

John Hasler writes:
 > Lisi writes:
 > > It is a complete misunderstanding (misinformation?) that [the
 > > countries that constitute the UK] are merely States
 > 
 > It is a complete misunderstanding that the states that constitute the USA
 > are merely provinces.

and none of them comes in .deb .

-- 
 /\   ___Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_   African word
  //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can
\/ coltivatore diretto di software   not install
 già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 12:41:40 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

> Am Donnerstag, 18. September 2014, 11:02:11 schrieb Brian:
> > On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 11:27:32 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > > The following packages will be REMOVED:
> > Install systemd-shim first.
> 
> It was installed as I ran the apt commend and it still is, cause if systemd
> doesn´t boot I like to say init=/sbin/init :)
> 
> martin@merkaba:~> dpkg -l | egrep
> "systemd-shim|cgmanager|sysvinit-core|systemd-sysv" |  cut -c1-70
> ii  cgmanager  0.32-4 
> ii  libcgmanager0:amd640.32-4 
> ii  systemd-shim   8-2
> ii  sysvinit-core  2.88dsf-53.4   
> 
> martin@merkaba:~> cat /proc/cmdline 
> BOOT_IMAGE=/vmlinuz-3.17.0-rc5-tp520 root=/dev/mapper/sata-debian ro
> rootflags=subvol=debian init=/bin/systemd resume=/dev/mapper/sata-swap

The OP said

  >> a)   If I will have to have systemd installed even if I do not want it.

You replied

   > I wanted to say no as I thought systemd-shim *and* cgmanager together can
   > replace it, but according to

At this point I wanted to say that systemd-shim and cgmanager replace
systemd-sysv. not systemd. I let it go; my mistake.

You went on to write

   > merkaba:~> LANG=C apt-get purge systemd

Another mistake on my part: I decided that "systemd" was a typo for
"systemd-sysv", especially as later on in your post you seemed to
understand that in #727708 the TC were concerned with systemd as PID 1.
The systemd-sysv package ensures that the wishes of the TC to make
systemd the default init system are carried out.

So, sorry about that. Your observation on libpam-systemd is correct.
Note that the TC chose "...to not pass a resolution at the current time
about whether software may require specific init systems"

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Re: View on UNIX purism in Linux Community