Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
> "Joel" == Joel Rees writes: Joel> It's the same thing. You think you have something wonderful and we aren't Joel> buying it. That's the beauty of it: you don't have to buy it. You're free to do whatever you want: contribute bug reports, patches for your choice of init, or switch - noone's stopping you from doing either. There *are* alternative inits in Debian. Do they come with a price? Yes. If you're not willing to pay that, or help improve the situation, then too bad. Debian doesn't have the resources to cater to every need (nor should it do that to begin with). Joel> You're insistance that we should do work when we don't have the Joel> resources to allocate to it is not helping. And where do you think Debian would get the resources from? Hm? Out of thin air? The only people who can help, are those who want the alternatives to work better. And a lot of them refuse to do so (or do it outside of Debian, for some odd reason). -- |8] signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
2014/11/12 3:09 "Didier 'OdyX' Raboud" : > > Le mardi, 11 novembre 2014, 12.34:10 Miles Fidelman a écrit : > > Laurent Bigonville wrote: > > > There are no functional differences between an installation with > > > sysvinit-core out of the box or an install where sysvinit-core is > > > installed later, this is a fact. > > > > No, that's NOT a fact. At least it's not a tested and demonstrated > > fact for complex configurations such as virtualized environments with > > complicated file system wiring. > > Laurent has put up a claim with which you disagree out of guessing, > without putting up any demonstrable or testable counter-proof yourself. > > > (…) > > I'm not particularly interested in testing how well install/replace > > systemd and its dependencies works in our environment (both hypervisor > > level or guest debootstrapped guest domain). > > If I rephrase what you're saying, you're basically expecting others to > make sure your environment still works as you see fit across the wheezy- > to-jessie upgrade, right? > > That's really too bad, because you're exactly the one best person to > detect problems, write constructive bug reports or provide patches (or > wording suggestions) for the upgrade notes to make sure your environment > will work as you see fit after the upgrade to Jessie (be it for dist- > upgrades or new installations, by the way). > > If you are not doing the work needed, why would others? Where do you opendesktop.org types get off demanding that we do the work of tending your baby? > You seem to be > projecting very high expectations onto the Debian project and its > volunteers, Uhm, no, the primary cause of the current excessive churn in Debian (and not just Debian) is the new init system, not the people who don't want to participate in that churn. (And I'll point out again, we all have churn of our own we are trying to deal with. I suppose some of that churn might eventually get fixed by a "proper" init system, but not for all of us. The emergencies I'm dealing with have zero or less to do with anything systemd can ever do. You guys really are not helping.) > without acknowledging the fact that you're getting this work > exactly for free, Which is the price you guys want for debugging your baby. > which I think is unfair (but that's probably just me). Fair, schmair. Bill Gates got on his high horse back about fourteen years and complained to the American public that all the court decisions were interfering with his freedom to innovate. NO FAIR! he said. We weren't impressed because he was interfering with our freedom to innovate, and worse. It's the same thing. You think you have something wonderful and we aren't buying it. You're insistance that we should do work when we don't have the resources to allocate to it is not helping. -- Joel Rees
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On 11/11/2014 02:16 PM, Brian wrote: On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 12:36:14 -0500, Marty wrote: On 11/11/2014 12:07 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote: > >There are no functional differences between an installation with >sysvinit-core out of the box or an install where sysvinit-core is >installed later, this is a fact. > >Allowing the user to choose this at install time from the interface is >a "nice to have" feature (wishlist bug) not a RC bug like you were >claiming earlier. There is a potential practical consequence of not advertising an init alternative during setup. It makes users less likely to be aware of it, or even aware that the init system has changed. New users do not need to be be aware of all the background to the choosing of a default init. No advertisement is needed. By definition, they do not care. They want Debian. Please let them have it. They will not care "by definition" only if they are not aware of the change, and most won't be aware unless they are informed during the installation. They won't know they lost the choice they didn't know they had. Capisce? What choice have they lost? They lost an *informed* choice. I think the installation program should not take sides but just inform the user. A choice that the user is not aware of is the same as no choice, and is potentially coercive and disrespectful. It makes Debian seem partial to Red Hat's business plan to take over the Linux ecosystem. Whatever it was, it didn't exist as you imply in Wheezy. It wasn't an issue in Wheezy because the default init option had not changed from the previous release, and any release before that. They won't know, that is, until it bites them somewhere down the line. Then they won't know where to look or who to blame, and will blame Debian. What bites them? Individually, probably something that requires sysvinit or one many core services that got replaced. Collectively, getting trapped by vendor lock-in. In both cases it could be the result of users being steered to the default init by the installation program, leaving alternatives to rot. Installation time may be only means that most users (like me*) ever would learn about it. * Install instructions? We don't need no stinkin' instructions Reading? You are right. Who wants it? Just spew out nonsense and hope nobody notices. Isn't that where the dumbed-down install is headed? Don't worry about the details silly, Windows tells you when it's time to reboot. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5462ef82.5010...@ix.netcom.com
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On 11/11/2014 at 01:51 PM, Brian wrote: > On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 12:58:25 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote: > >> Brian wrote: >> >>> Everyone gets it. Not everyone boots with it. Not everyone who >>> boots first time with it gets to use it on subsequent boots. >> >> That is DEFINITELY a definition of "default" that is subject to >> very differing opinions. > > Everyone gets systemd. This a a fact, not an opinion. > > Everyone can alter what they first boot with. This is a fact, not an > opinion, > > Everyone can change the init system after first boot. This is a fact, > not an opinion, > >> And there is a very distinct difference between "installed by >> default" and "enabled by default." > > There may be. But, everyone gets systemd. (Please see above). And while all of these things are true TTBOMK, none of them are related to the thing I was responding to, which is your unqualified statement that these things are what the statement "systemd is the default init system" means. systemd being "the default init system" can/could mean many different things. One of those things would mean that all of the things you say must necessarily be true. That possible meaning is embodied in the current implementation of the package dependencies and of debian-installer. There are other possible meanings which would not mean that. From the perspective of such a meaning, the current debian-installer implementation is incorrect, and therefore buggy. The entire reason I responded in the first place is that you were making an unqualified statement about the meaning of the phrase "the default init system", without supporting that statement with arguments or evidence, when the question of the meaning of that phrase is - at some important level - the very thing which is under dispute. That sort of implicit assumption is not conducive to good argument, or to fostering even the possibility of understanding and agreement between the sides of a disagreement. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
'aptitude install' reports problem with emacs24-nox: cl-macroexpand-all
When I use aptitude to install something, it reports
errors on emacs and emacs24-nox. I says:
systemtap-mode.el:62:1:Error: Symbol's function
definition is void: cl-macroexpand-all
$ sudo aptitude install iamerican-insane
...
The following NEW packages will be installed:
iamerican-insane ienglish-common{a} ispell{a}
The following partially installed packages will be configured:
emacs emacs24-nox
0 packages upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 1,498 kB of archives. After unpacking 1,767 kB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] Y
Get: 1 http://ftp.se.debian.org/debian/ jessie/main ispell amd64 3.3.02-6 [175
kB]
Get: 2 http://ftp.se.debian.org/debian/ jessie/main ienglish-common all
3.3.02-6 [32.0 kB]
Get: 3 http://ftp.se.debian.org/debian/ jessie/main iamerican-insane all
3.3.02-6 [1,291 kB]
Fetched 1,498 kB in 0s (2,949 kB/s)
Preconfiguring packages ...
Selecting previously unselected package ispell.
(Reading database ... 128093 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack .../ispell_3.3.02-6_amd64.deb ...
Unpacking ispell (3.3.02-6) ...
Selecting previously unselected package ienglish-common.
Preparing to unpack .../ienglish-common_3.3.02-6_all.deb ...
Unpacking ienglish-common (3.3.02-6) ...
Selecting previously unselected package iamerican-insane.
Preparing to unpack .../iamerican-insane_3.3.02-6_all.deb ...
Unpacking iamerican-insane (3.3.02-6) ...
Processing triggers for man-db (2.7.0.2-3) ...
Setting up emacs24-nox (24.4+1-4) ...
Install emacsen-common for emacs24
emacsen-common: Handling install of emacsen flavor emacs24
Wrote /etc/emacs24/site-start.d/00debian-vars.elc
Wrote /usr/share/emacs24/site-lisp/debian-startup.elc
Install systemtap-common for emacs24
install/systemtap-common: Handling install of emacsen flavor emacs24
Byte-compilation failed:
Loading 00debian-vars...
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/20apel.el (source)...
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50dictionaries-common.el (source)...
Info: Skip debian-el loading if run under dpkg control.
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50flim.el (source)...
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50python-docutils.el (source)...
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50systemtap-common.el (source)...
Loading /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/systemtap-common/systemtap-init.el
(source)...
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50w3m-el.el (source)...
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50w3m-el-snapshot.el (source)...
Wrote /usr/share/emacs24/site-lisp/systemtap-common/systemtap-init.elc
In toplevel form:
systemtap-mode.el:62:1:Error: Symbol's function definition is void:
cl-macroexpand-all
ERROR: install script from systemtap-common package failed
dpkg: error processing package emacs24-nox (--configure):
subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1
dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of emacs:
emacs depends on emacs24 | emacs24-lucid | emacs24-nox; however:
Package emacs24 is not installed.
Package emacs24-nox which provides emacs24 is not configured yet.
Package emacs24-lucid is not installed.
Package emacs24-nox is not configured yet.
dpkg: error processing package emacs (--configure):
dependency problems - leaving unconfigured
Setting up ispell (3.3.02-6) ...
Setting up ienglish-common (3.3.02-6) ...
Setting up iamerican-insane (3.3.02-6) ...
Processing triggers for dictionaries-common (1.23.16) ...
ispell-autobuildhash: Processing 'american-insane' dict.
Errors were encountered while processing:
emacs24-nox
emacs
E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
Failed to perform requested operation on package. Trying to recover:
Setting up emacs24-nox (24.4+1-4) ...
Install emacsen-common for emacs24
emacsen-common: Handling install of emacsen flavor emacs24
Wrote /etc/emacs24/site-start.d/00debian-vars.elc
Wrote /usr/share/emacs24/site-lisp/debian-startup.elc
Install apel for emacs24
install/apel: already byte-compiled for emacs24, skipped
Install dictionaries-common for emacs24
install/dictionaries-common: Already byte-compiled for emacs24. Skipping ...
Install w3m-el-snapshot for emacs24
install/w3m-el-snapshot: already byte-compiled for emacs24, skipped
Install systemtap-common for emacs24
install/systemtap-common: Handling install of emacsen flavor emacs24
Byte-compilation failed:
Loading 00debian-vars...
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/20apel.el (source)...
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50dictionaries-common.el (source)...
Info: Skip debian-el loading if run under dpkg control.
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50flim.el (source)...
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50python-docutils.el (source)...
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50systemtap-common.el (source)...
Loading /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/systemtap-common/systemtap-init.el
(source)...
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50w3m-el.el (source)...
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50w3m-el-snapshot.el (source)...
Wrote /usr/share/emacs24/site-lisp/systemtap-common/systemtap-init.elc
Re: WD Passport 2T hard drive formating question.
> You seem to have overlooked Darac Marjal's response. I have not. I've just took a pause to do some additional reading and to experiment a little. I've tried 'tune2fs -m 1.0 /dev/sdXY' (found in Arch docs for Ext4). The result was quite interesting. Both Nautilus and "df" showed the used space on the drive reduced up to 19 MB. Then I fired GParted and it still insisted that 29 GB were in use instead. I recreated the file system from scratch using this time mkfs.ext4 with the default options. The result - both Nautilus and "df" showed used space on drive only 60 MB. But GParted again insisted on 29 GB being in use. Finally I recreated the file system one more time again with GParted. After these all 3 parties, Nautilus, "df", and GParted agreed on 29 GB being used. Quite a mystery... :-) > 29GB is not the space reserved for the super user. It is made of blocks > set aside for inodes storage and super blocks replication (see option -T > in mkfs.ext4 man page). > I have been using xfs on external USB HDD because I never succeeded in > the right value between too many inodes and not enough. I'll use the drive for rsync snapshots type backup and will keep at least 5 snapshots recreated weekly. It happened to me already a couple of times that the space taken by snapshots changed almost exponentially do to the differences in snapshots (this is actually how I get 2T HDD idea). It's quite a difficult task to figure out the correct inodes number in this situation. I'll give a try to XFS. The file system after created takes about 950 MB, which is way better then 29.42 GB. And there is no need to predict the required number of inodes. Unless I decide to create Ext4 with mkfs2.ext4 and to rely on those low "used" numbers. But right now I'm not sure the numbers are really reliable. > And the space reserved for the super user is really a space that can > only be written by root. It is not a space required to operate the disk. > It is made of blocks reserved to prevent a user from filling up the disk > and prevent anybody (including root) from logging in. As far as I > understand, you don't need it on an external storage. You can set -m0 > when formatting the disk. man pages for mkfs2.ext4 say that the space reserved for root as also needed to avoid fragmentation. Unfortunately the documentation in this regard is extremely scanty and unclear. So far I've not found any recommendations on how little is enough in other for Ext4 being able to keep the drive not fragmented. Probably another +1 for XFS, which just come with its own utilities. Thanks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/m3uaf7$615$1...@ger.gmane.org
Re: Mount order after systemd update
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 10:00:03 +0100 Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote: > Martin Manns: > > After switching to systemd, [...] password entry on startup looks > > weird because some weird red moving stars are shown instead of a > > prompt. > > The official name for the "weird red moving stars" is "animated boot > time output for hanging jobs". But its unofficial name is the > "systemd Cylon eye". This is the part that is undocumented. Your > auto-generated systemd-cryptsetup@ jobs are of course hanging waiting > for a response from the systemd RPC password prompting system that > hands the passwords to them. Since you don't have plymouth, you're > using the rather less prettified fallback password prompter that > comes bundled in the systemd package that doesn't work too well with > other console output happening at the same time. So I have finally installed plymouth and I have got a nice password entry routine for the first (root) hard drive. Plymouth also gives me verbose boot messages back, which is great. But I still get the "systemd Cylon eye" for the second encrypted hard drive. Even worse, I do neither get it nor a prompt for the third cryptdisk even though I must enter the password. (Fortunately, hard drive order seems to be preserved now even though I do not know why). How do I get a plymouth prompt (and no Cylon eye) for each drive in /etc/crypttab? And by the way how do I get pppoe to start automatically on boot again? Launching a pon script seems counter-intuitive and I have seen an article on Phoronix that systemd support for pppoe is still under development. I am running Debian unstable. Plymouth Version: 0.9.0-8 Systemd Version: 215-5+b1 plymouthd.conf: # Administrator customizations go in this file #[Daemon] #Theme=text #ShowDelay=0 [Daemon] Theme=details boot.log: Volume group "main_disk" not found Skipping volume group main_disk Unable to find LVM volume main_disk/root Volume group "main_disk" not found Skipping volume group main_disk Unable to find LVM volume main_disk/swap Reading all physical volumes. This may take a while... Found volume group "main_disk" using metadata type lvm2 3 logical volume(s) in volume group "main_disk" now active Scanning for Btrfs filesystems fsck from util-linux 2.25.2 Root: clean, 562116/2441216 files, 5172285/9764864 blocks Welcome to Debian GNU/Linux jessie/sid! [ OK ] Reached target Remote File Systems (Pre). [ OK ] Set up automount Arbitrary Executable File Formats File System Automount Point. Expecting device dev-disk-by\x2duuid-35d76817\x2d774c\x2d428b\x2d8b3a\x2d5f4f73596610.device... Expecting device dev-mapper-sda5_crypt.device... Expecting device dev-mapper-main_disk\x2dswap.device... Expecting device dev-disk-by\x2duuid-ac7f3049\x2d6dfd\x2d4861\x2d9132\x2d7fe53e820acb.device... Expecting device dev-mapper-main_disk\x2dhome.device... Expecting device dev-disk-by\x2duuid-96cf1e49\x2d1311\x2d49cf\x2d9936\x2df72a45630a01.device... Expecting device dev-mapper-sdb1_crypt.device... Expecting device dev-disk-by\x2duuid-97507936\x2d93db\x2d43e7\x2da914\x2de8af06b438a2.device... Expecting device dev-mapper-sdc1_crypt.device... [ OK ] Created slice Root Slice. [ OK ] Created slice User and Session Slice. [ OK ] Listening on Delayed Shutdown Socket. [ OK ] Listening on /dev/initctl Compatibility Named Pipe. [ OK ] Listening on Journal Socket (/dev/log). [ OK ] Listening on Syslog Socket. [ OK ] Listening on Device-mapper event daemon FIFOs. [ OK ] Listening on LVM2 metadata daemon socket. [ OK ] Listening on udev Control Socket. [ OK ] Listening on udev Kernel Socket. [ OK ] Listening on Journal Socket. [ OK ] Created slice System Slice. Starting File System Check on Root Device... [ OK ] Created slice system-systemd\x2dfsck.slice. [ OK ] Created slice system-getty.slice. Starting Load Kernel Modules... Starting Create list of required static device nodes for the current kernel... Mounting Debug File System... Starting udev Coldplug all Devices... Mounting POSIX Message Queue File System... Mounting Huge Pages File System... [ OK ] Created slice system-systemd\x2dcryptsetup.slice. Starting Journal Service... [ OK ] Started Journal Service. [ OK ] Reached target Slices. [ OK ] Started Create list of required static device nodes for the current kernel. Starting Create Static Device Nodes in /dev... [ OK ] Started udev Coldplug all Devices. Starting udev Wait for Complete Device Initialization... [ OK ] Mounted Huge Pages File System. [ OK ] Mounted POSIX Message Queue File System. [ OK ] Mounted Debug File System. [ OK ] Started Create Static Device Nodes in /dev. Starting udev Kernel Device Manager... [ OK ] Started udev Kernel Device Manager. Starting LSB: Set preliminary keymap... [ 421.698605] systemd-fsck[275]: Root: clean, 562116/2441216 files, 5172285/9764864 blocks [ OK ] Started
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Ma, 11 nov 14, 12:34:10, Miles Fidelman wrote: Laurent Bigonville wrote: There are no functional differences between an installation with sysvinit-core out of the box or an install where sysvinit-core is installed later, this is a fact. No, that's NOT a fact. At least it's not a tested and demonstrated fact for complex configurations such as virtualized environments with complicated file system wiring. Wasn't this about clean (minimal) installs? Where did the all the complications come from? Clean as in install systemvinit from the beginning, not after systemd was first installed by default. Where the complications come in is that, when talking about testing the assertion that there are no complications associated with an "unclean" install, I pointed out that testing in a real environment is different than on a basic machine. In my case, I'm worried about artifacts that might impact the stuff that I'll install immediately after the core system - like Xen, DRBD, cluster-glue, and then how an unclean install behaves inside a VM on top of that environment. Based on previous experience, mostly with mail systems (install exim, then replace with sendmail) and filesystems, it's very easy to find oneself with all kinds of artifacts left behind by an install/replace process; as well as finding one's way into lots of packages getting installed/replaced and associated dependency hell. Do you have any concrete evidence for such issues in this concrete case? Because I'm quite sure the developers would like to know about them. After all, that's the purpose of piuparts. https://piuparts.debian.org/ https://piuparts.debian.org/sid/pass/systemd_215-5+b1.log Sorry, but no. I'm basing my decision on whether to invest time in in-depth testing on previous experience with what I consider to be analogous situations. Miles Fidelman -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54629acf.8020...@meetinghouse.net
Re: useradd segmentation fault
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sorry about late reply, got a bit busy with other things. On 11/07/2014 11:43 PM, Reco wrote: > Hi. > > I'd try adding some memory (or swapspace) to this VM to satisfy > mremap's wish to remap to exactly 8G virtual memory. > > Reco Tried this, set the VMs memory to 8gb and still get the segfault, the strace and core dumb look pretty identical to before. Also still not sure why I don't have the debug symbol things for the ldap lib, tried a few more times to install it to no avail. - -Joris -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJUYpWUAAoJEORnMHMHY2Fro8wQALSgyakp9fXsP063F51s3av4 3kc698UvCW8Qy1TY/CfsstOhiOPaLUjtJIKNwzc7YaFi8NhzsZcJzTeikFGWSpKg TfxDlEv9kJQWQiKxKY4RLzW6ZXKqPJjFoN1ob/rY3hdy/OoNUD1rGApzallwptZ/ pAx0my0g7edZQwD5sbtKfo3unSTWD8j3XDJF0N0BwxqsT6HncpIAtbiNQ+PJpfm4 gQRnJYd/ZQ8aGb9CpxqrtAAbf4dAqVBYmRa4jl+2crRKFL9DX+se83OimDQzJk6C DlEPIxPk5vRNtKbqYfYLc8G4YBPYVY1q3OoBlizvEQvgLkpamoWp07smg4TjRqWo tsp6b2ORkpmCxDeH8W6Lt+uhrkszQm3g6WWKPJbbMQpoaytg3rLdI0e9n20axzgo RAa0XyD26xHWdAK0IjnzQjrjllplkbx/seRo3d0b0NudNZKy/yQIJvdw19UA2GoE c7d+AYgBcA3ulY+LUc4hNnfyNqtuzALJWiQ/kO0V9plOkGd/1Smn546iBBxxCC7q P3LWqP72HfX4VA1i+/+7TQL3i9/HegnvA5h+HVmRSU38bYYiKKdKKZh+DC1unBaW dTov6Q04N9iEo4bZdBla+UhDkV3awpwfJ1v4s8JO6Eircly0btIrrqnq2euC7dTL yUpIjET51WlRtOD+oUla =0htc -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54629597.4060...@linux.com
Re: Re: Valuing non-code contributions -- was Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014,Don Armstrong mailto:don%40debian.org>> wrote: On Tue, 11 Nov 2014, Erwan David wrote: > Le 11/11/2014 18:59, Don Armstrong a écrit : > > When I (or someone else) asks people to "show us the code", it's > > really just shorthand for "someone needs to do this work, and it > > currently isn't important enough for me to do it." > > Asking to provide a patch to an utterly complex code is just > [complete] [nonsense] and [hypocrisy]: one cannot patch any complex > software without working on it for long hours. While it might take less time for someone intimately familiar with a piece of code to provide a patch, it still may take a lot of time for them to provide the patch. The actual cost may be even higher even though it takes less time, because writing a patch means that they're not working on something else. It's the reality of Free Software that people work on things that they want to work on. If something is important to you, but not important enough for you to do it, then your next best alternative is to figure out how you can best encourage someone else to do it for you. Calling people hypocrites isn't a very effective way to do that. > And when the probleme is te basic design of the software a patch is > not conceivable. Then the solution is to become involved in the software design process. Not for nothing, but at least in some settings, requirements review, design review and alpha testing are considered vital contributions to the software design process. Not as much here, as far as I can tell (the attitude seems to be much more, "I'm going to do it my way, if you don't like it go somewhere else"). On a broader note, Debian, Linux, *nix in general, and FOSS software are a complex and highly-interdependent ecosystem. Yes some people just take, but an awful lot of us contribute in various ways, in various places, to the overall ecosystem - be it writing upstream code, libraries, documentation, providing training, doing policy work (can you say EFF), crafting open-source licenses, providing support in various forms. The gnu tools, glibc, the kernel - without those, there would be no Debian or other distributions. Arguably, without the GPL, there wouldn't be a lot of FOSS software. EFF goes out and fights legal battles to protect the ecosystem. An awful lot of code depends on Apache, MySQL, SQL Lite, and so forth. And it goes on. The pieces are highly interdependent, and in many cases, a contribution to one project, or activity, benefits many others. In this context, and IMHO, the view of "if you're not contributing to a specific piece of code then you have no right to comment on it;" or "if you don't like it, go elsewhere" is an awfully narrow minded and counter-productive approach to things. Miles Fidelman Miles Fidelman -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5462855a.7000...@meetinghouse.net
RE: Joey Hess is out?
-Original Message-
From: Bret Busby [mailto:bret.bu...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 9:28 AM
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Joey Hess is out?
On 11/11/2014, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 08:00:27AM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
>> Chris Bannister writes:
>> > I read that as 'trouble unsubscribing?' then Contact
>> > listmas...@lists.debian.org.
>>
>> I read it as 'technical trouble with this list'. You're right, though:
>> now that we have listmoms the footer needs to be redone. File a
>> wishlist bug.
>
> 'listmoms'?
>
Women who hit you with a list of things to do ("Clean up your room!...Mow The
lawns!Wash the dishes") instead of hitting you over the head with a hockey
stick (Hockeymoms), or putting the boot in (soccer moms).
Mailing lists have list administrators, but, someone on thi list, appears to
think the list is run by a bunch of women
Listmoms is not a term that I would use for people running a mailing list...
Isn't this thread, dead yet?
Seems to start looking like a dead horse that people keep propping up, so that
they can try to flog it off to someone ("It is not dead - it is just
resting")...
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992
Perhaps there was a typo and the word should have been "listmons" as in list
monitors?
Larry
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Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
On Ma, 11 nov 14, 11:58:33, Tanstaafl wrote: > On 11/11/2014 9:26 AM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > > Blaming the Debian project for letting the Debian distribution evolve in > > ways defined by its volunteers is unfair. > > Eh? My understanding is that this systemd mess is due to a vote of the > technical committee, a vote that was in fact tied and the chair had to > cast the tie-breaker. Yes, a tie between systemd and upstart. Feel free to s/systemd/upstart/ and s/Red Hat/Canonical/ in all recent systemd threads. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On Ma, 11 nov 14, 12:34:10, Miles Fidelman wrote: > Laurent Bigonville wrote: > >There are no functional differences between an installation with > >sysvinit-core out of the box or an install where sysvinit-core is > >installed later, this is a fact. > > No, that's NOT a fact. At least it's not a tested and demonstrated fact for > complex configurations such as virtualized environments with complicated > file system wiring. Wasn't this about clean (minimal) installs? Where did the all the complications come from? > Based on previous experience, mostly with mail systems (install exim, then > replace with sendmail) and filesystems, it's very easy to find oneself with > all kinds of artifacts left behind by an install/replace process; as well as > finding one's way into lots of packages getting installed/replaced and > associated dependency hell. Do you have any concrete evidence for such issues in this concrete case? Because I'm quite sure the developers would like to know about them. After all, that's the purpose of piuparts. https://piuparts.debian.org/ https://piuparts.debian.org/sid/pass/systemd_215-5+b1.log Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: need help in rights delegation to a freelance "web developer"
> Secondly do you guys have any advice on more security of WP. i have heard > that word press is kind of week in security. maybe i am wrong but i have > heard that. I've had no problems in several years of hosting WP. I do recommend NOT using the Debian package for WordPress. For security and also better features, use the most recent version available at wordpress.org. Installation is actually only slightly harder than the Debian package--their claim of a 5-minute install is totally valid. I would echo the comment about installing from source. After doing so, Wordpress includes functions for installing plug-ins, updating both the base software and plug-ins from upstream, and so forth. Re. security: I find that our site gets hit rather frequently by various kinds of distributed attacks. Wordpress is a very popular target for automated software that tries to crack it, spam it, and install spambots. I've found it very helpful to install several plug-ins that provide various forms of firewall and blocking functions. In particular: Akismet: anti-spam, comes in the basic install, but needs to be configured iThemes Security - blocks brute force login attacks and such VSF Simple Block - adaptive firewall Wordpress Firewall 2 - another firewall NOTE: These help, but if you end up on the attacking end of a distributed bot attack, it's likely that your Apache server will get hosed -- at times, I've had to tune Apache (number of concurrent processes, number of concurrent queries), to keep our server from getting so overloaded that it crashes. Also: BackWPup is a nice auto-backup tool Miles Fidelman -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546280a4.3060...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Valuing non-code contributions -- was Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
- Original Message - > From: "Rob Owens" > > - Original Message - > > From: <_...@debian.org> > > > Debian also was always and will always stay technically defined by those > > volunteering to make it what it is. By extension, it is explicitly not > > defined by those not putting work (but only words) into it; unmaintained > > software and code paths are routinely removed when not enough volunteers > > keep the things working, and that's a good thing. > > I don't mean to single out the poster of this comment, because it is > something I've seen repeated by several Debian developers and some > non-developers. Other forms of it are "If you want that fixed, please > submit a patch", or the response I got to bug 762116, "Code changes the > world". The OP contacted me off list. I accept that he didn't mean his comments to be as broad as I took them to be, and I don't have any hard feelings. I hope he doesn't either. Regardless, I want to make sure my intention of my post is clear: Recently someone on this list made the very good point that we should be careful not to de-motivate the developers. I would just add that we should be careful as well not to de-motivate the non-coding contributors. That's all. -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1249103608.358239.1415738619173.javamail.zim...@ptd.net
Re: Valuing non-code contributions -- was Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
Erwan David wrote: Le 11/11/2014 18:59, Don Armstrong a écrit : On Tue, 11 Nov 2014, Rob Owens wrote: This type of comment says to me that my contributions to Debian are useless if they are not in the form of code. https://contributors.debian.org/ is everyone who we know has contributed to Debian in one of the ways that we currently measure. [Granted, it's not complete, but people are working on it.] See https://contributors.debian.org/contributor/don%40debian for example. All kinds of contributions to Debian are welcome. But that said, at the end of the day, someone has to do the work. Whether it's the work writing documentation, filing bugs, writing patches, testing patches, answering questions, or helping others, if no one does the work, the work doesn't get done. When I (or someone else) asks people to "show us the code", it's really just shorthand for "someone needs to do this work, and it currently isn't important enough for me to do it." Asking to provide a patch to an utterly compex code is just cpomplete non-sens and hypocrisy : one cannot patch any complex software without working on it for long hours. And when the probleme is te basic design of the software a patch is not conceivable. And then, beyond that, there's the question of whether the packagers and/or maintainers chose to incorporate the patch, and when. (Someone DID write a patch to bug #66801 for example - it's just sitting there.) Miles Fidelman -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5462736c.9040...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis wrote: On 11-11-2014 21:16, Brian wrote: On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 12:36:14 -0500, Marty wrote: On 11/11/2014 12:07 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote: > >There are no functional differences between an installation with >sysvinit-core out of the box or an install where sysvinit-core is >installed later, this is a fact. > >Allowing the user to choose this at install time from the interface is >a "nice to have" feature (wishlist bug) not a RC bug like you were >claiming earlier. There is a potential practical consequence of not advertising an init alternative during setup. It makes users less likely to be aware of it, or even aware that the init system has changed. New users do not need to be be aware of all the background to the choosing of a default init. No advertisement is needed. By definition, they do not care. They want Debian. Please let them have it. If it's not a problem can I ask the following ? AFAIU and IMHO, for the users that is more desktop oriented, already exists in d-i the ability to choose their "favorite" DE, (if they care of course), dispite the fact there is a default (GNOME). And if I'm not mistaken the selection UI has changed in Jessie because was "hidden" in some 3rd level menu, no clearly visible. Is it a project decision to go more Desktop ? Sorry I don't know much reg. how to fix the --exclude bug, but is it too much work for someone to do it, at least for the expert install ? Actually, there's a patch (thank you Kenshi). It has not been applied. Hence, to use it right now, one has to build a custom version of the installer. I hope, that post the initial Jessie release, the deboostrap and installer maintainers will apply the patch. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546272b1.5010...@meetinghouse.net
Re: INTEL HD Graphics
I received an answer on the intel-gfx mailing list: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/intel-gfx/2014-November/055165.html As instructed, I enabled SNA acceleration in my custom xorg.conf and installed the intel driver from experimental. ZaphodHeads now works on my new desktop just as I want. Right now some of the more advanced features require a bit of tweaking but not so much that any black magic is required. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014200552.gp1...@n0nb.us
Re: INTEL HD Graphics
On 11 November 2014 17:30, Morten Bo Johansen wrote: > On 2014-11-11 Lisi Reisz wrote: > >> Intel runs fine on Wheezy, though you do need a kernel upgrade in the >> form of a backported kernel for some (though not all) Intel drivers. > > Of course, but if you are using backported packages, you are > not really running Wheezy anymore. I'm certainly not running Jessie. Look back at your original email. Lisi. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cap6gwwr63pasntjx0t2jtgak4b9b4t2xun4k1krdsah_8oe...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Valuing non-code contributions -- was Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
Le 11/11/2014 20:21, Don Armstrong a écrit : > On Tue, 11 Nov 2014, Erwan David wrote: >> Le 11/11/2014 18:59, Don Armstrong a écrit : >>> When I (or someone else) asks people to "show us the code", it's >>> really just shorthand for "someone needs to do this work, and it >>> currently isn't important enough for me to do it." >> Asking to provide a patch to an utterly complex code is just >> [complete] [nonsense] and [hypocrisy]: one cannot patch any complex >> software without working on it for long hours. > While it might take less time for someone intimately familiar with a > piece of code to provide a patch, it still may take a lot of time for > them to provide the patch. The actual cost may be even higher even > though it takes less time, because writing a patch means that they're > not working on something else. > > It's the reality of Free Software that people work on things that they > want to work on. If something is important to you, but not important > enough for you to do it, then your next best alternative is to figure > out how you can best encourage someone else to do it for you. Calling > people hypocrites isn't a very effective way to do that. > >> And when the probleme is te basic design of the software a patch is >> not conceivable. > Then the solution is to become involved in the software design process. > Your email makes me me regretting contibuting by translating doc (a long time ago) otr contibuting bugs... This kind opf stance is completely full of contempt agains non coders. But coders are nothing if nobody uses or test. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546266ee.4070...@rail.eu.org
Re: cross toolchains
On 11/11/14 19:12, Sven Joachim wrote: > On 2014-11-11 18:18 +0100, Tony van der Hoff wrote: > >> On 11/11/14 17:04, Frank wrote: >>> >>> On 11/11/2014 11:54 AM, Tony van der Hoff wrote: Can anyone confirm that http://www.emdebian.org/ is currently not responding? >>> >>> Yes it's apparently down. Accessing a cached copy of the site reveals >>> the whole project was winding down as of July. >>> >>> >> Oh, bummer; I'll have to look elsewhere for my cross toolchains. > > Wookey is maintaining a repository for jessie/sid, see the Wiki[1] for > instructions. Works great for me. :-) > Splendid, Thank you, Sven -- Tony van der Hoff| mailto:t...@vanderhoff.org Buckinghamshire, England | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546269c6.4070...@vanderhoff.org
Re: advice on choosing an AMD chipset
> > >> For business desktop use, I prefer onboard graphics for reliability. > Also, most add-in cards require fans for cooling which gives you another > point of failure while adding to the noise. Power requirements are higher > when you want the graphics performance of the faster graphics cards. > > For server use, you can get FX boards and install a very cheap video card > with low power requirements and no fan. That's actually also my current > desktop configuration (uses an HD6450 card with large heatsink) as well. > Not running games, I find it works nicely. > > Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to my query. Although the AMD processors are apparently not as fast as the Intel ones, I like them. You are encouraging me to get the Kaveri motherboard. Figuring these things out in isolation is not optimal. I have also been taking a bit of interest in the chips being sold by adapteva - the parallela set. They seem to be designed to work in tandem with an ARM processor of some kind unless I am mistaken. Regards Michael Fothergill > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a > subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54626474.3090...@torfree.net > >
Re: Valuing non-code contributions -- was Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014, Erwan David wrote: > Le 11/11/2014 18:59, Don Armstrong a écrit : > > When I (or someone else) asks people to "show us the code", it's > > really just shorthand for "someone needs to do this work, and it > > currently isn't important enough for me to do it." > > Asking to provide a patch to an utterly complex code is just > [complete] [nonsense] and [hypocrisy]: one cannot patch any complex > software without working on it for long hours. While it might take less time for someone intimately familiar with a piece of code to provide a patch, it still may take a lot of time for them to provide the patch. The actual cost may be even higher even though it takes less time, because writing a patch means that they're not working on something else. It's the reality of Free Software that people work on things that they want to work on. If something is important to you, but not important enough for you to do it, then your next best alternative is to figure out how you can best encourage someone else to do it for you. Calling people hypocrites isn't a very effective way to do that. > And when the probleme is te basic design of the software a patch is > not conceivable. Then the solution is to become involved in the software design process. -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com 6: If we are one, then we can defeat 2. -- "The Prisoner (2009 Miniseries)" _Schizoid_ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014192107.gq4...@rzlab.ucr.edu
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On 11-11-2014 21:16, Brian wrote: On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 12:36:14 -0500, Marty wrote: On 11/11/2014 12:07 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote: > >There are no functional differences between an installation with >sysvinit-core out of the box or an install where sysvinit-core is >installed later, this is a fact. > >Allowing the user to choose this at install time from the interface is >a "nice to have" feature (wishlist bug) not a RC bug like you were >claiming earlier. There is a potential practical consequence of not advertising an init alternative during setup. It makes users less likely to be aware of it, or even aware that the init system has changed. New users do not need to be be aware of all the background to the choosing of a default init. No advertisement is needed. By definition, they do not care. They want Debian. Please let them have it. If it's not a problem can I ask the following ? AFAIU and IMHO, for the users that is more desktop oriented, already exists in d-i the ability to choose their "favorite" DE, (if they care of course), dispite the fact there is a default (GNOME). And if I'm not mistaken the selection UI has changed in Jessie because was "hidden" in some 3rd level menu, no clearly visible. Is it a project decision to go more Desktop ? Sorry I don't know much reg. how to fix the --exclude bug, but is it too much work for someone to do it, at least for the expert install ? Regards, -- Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/a86db8a9ecf74b5754c573eb6c71a...@nephelae.eu
Re: Joey Hess is out?
On 12/11/2014, Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2014, John Hasler wrote:
>> Vernacular for moderators, making sure that we play nice.
>
> On Wed, 12 Nov 2014, Bret Busby wrote:
>> Women who hit you with a list of things to do ("Clean up your
>> room!...Mow The lawns!Wash the dishes") instead of hitting you
>> over the head with a hockey stick (Hockeymoms), or putting the boot in
>> (soccer moms).
>>
>> Mailing lists have list administrators, but, someone on thi list,
>> appears to think the list is run by a bunch of women
>
> Sexism like this is inappropriate in Debian. Please stop.
>
> --
> Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com
>
> I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be
> pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My
> life is my own. I resign.
> -- Patrick McGoohan as Number 6 in "The Prisoner"
>
>
'Twas not I, who introduced the term "listmoms" to the thread, which
usage is conspicuously missing from the above message, making what was
posted above, completely out of context.
Out of fairness, the above message should have included the posted
text that inlcuded the usage of the term "listmoms", so that what is
posted above, is in context.
The included quotation above, in the signature of Don Armstrong, is
interesting by its context, in this thread that apprently relates to a
resignation from the Debian developers, which resignation, from what
has been posted about that resignation, appears to resemble the
wording of the quotation.
Also interesting, is that I believe that the actor Patrick McGoohan is
starring in a series currently being broadcast on one of the
television networks here (when television broadcasts can be received
here), where he stars in the title role of Dangerman.
And, in the request being made for the cessation relating to the text
above, surely, the commentary on this list, about goings on on the
Debian developers list (whence apparently, is the source of what
started this thread), has run its course, and could be diverted back
to the Debian developers mailing list, rather than the Debian users
list, being tied up with commentary about the goings on on the Debian
developers list?
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..
"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992
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Re: advice on choosing an AMD chipset
On 11/11/14 01:09 PM, Michael Fothergill wrote: Dear Folks, I am planning to order the components for a new PC that I will put together myself with a bit of help from the local PC store I use for repairs etc. At first I had thought to buy an FX 8350 motherboard plus fan and some RAM and a power supply e.g. Corsair Builder Series CXM 750W Modular 80 PLUS. The case could be a large one e.g. Cooler Master HAF X USB 3.0 XL ATX Case. Perhaps that is too big but it would have good ventilation. I would add a flash drive (SSD) and an optical drive and run with it for a number of months and then get a graphics card etc - probably an Nvidia one. I started looking at the AMD Kaveri A10-7850K processor and reviews comparing it with the FX8350 etc. At first it seemed that the FX8350 was faster per $ or £ than the Kaveri and that a separate graphics card like an Nvidia one was a better option according to various web sites I visited on the subject. But then I read about HSA (Heterogeneous System Architecture) and discovered that it had been used to make e.g. libre office run a lot more efficiently. I don't do gaming so I don't need powerful graphics acceleration. I began to realise that the graphics acceleration produced by the Kaveri processor would probably be adequate for my own requirements. From what I can see looking at some tests done by Phoronix it works a lot better than typical on board graphics would do on a conventional CPU set up. It also seems that the open source drivers work pretty well for Radeon graphics cards. My question to you is this: if I would choose the Kaveri processor (and probably not bother adding either an Nvidia card or an extra Radeon card) and run with it, how rapidly (e.g. 2- 3 years) do you think HSA enhancements and optimisations of popular packages used in Debian etc be created and incorporated into new releases (e.g. Jessie and beyond)? How much potential do you think HSA has? Regards Michael Fothergill I haven't done a lot of research on the issue but I've used both. To get the latest chipsets and onboard graphics, you're pretty much limited to the A series processors. Once the A series came out, the FX processor boards seem to have stopped being made with onboard graphics. For business desktop use, I prefer onboard graphics for reliability. Also, most add-in cards require fans for cooling which gives you another point of failure while adding to the noise. Power requirements are higher when you want the graphics performance of the faster graphics cards. For server use, you can get FX boards and install a very cheap video card with low power requirements and no fan. That's actually also my current desktop configuration (uses an HD6450 card with large heatsink) as well. Not running games, I find it works nicely. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54626474.3090...@torfree.net
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 13:14:00 -0500, Tanstaafl wrote: > On 11/11/2014 12:07 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote: > > There are no functional differences between an installation with > > sysvinit-core out of the box or an install where sysvinit-core is > > installed later, this is a fact. > > Irrelevant. To what? And why? > > Allowing the user to choose this at install time from the interface is > > a "nice to have" feature (wishlist bug) not a RC bug like you were > > claiming earlier. > > Opinion... Indeed it is. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014192140.880712c2c...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Wheezy fails to complete boot after last update
On 11/11/14 11:59 AM, Christian Seiler wrote: Am 11.11.2014 um 17:48 schrieb Gary Dale: Update: booting using sysrescuecd, I removed the /etc/rcS.d/S13networking link and rebooted into single-user mode. It completed OK, so I then ran /etc/init.d/networking start, which exhibited the same problems it did when run by init. However this time I was able to kill the process, at which point I noted the network had been started. Exiting from the single-user mode allowed the boot to continue to a normal command prompt. This still leaves me with the problem of not being able to reboot the computer remotely, since the workaround involves disabling the network. dmesg shows the following from the last boot: [ 181.805309] r8169 :03:00.0: firmware: agent loaded rtl_nic/rtl8168e-3.fw into memory [ 181.917202] r8169 :03:00.0: eth0: link down [ 181.920948] r8169 :03:00.0: eth0: link down [ 181.928316] ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): eth0: link is not ready [ 184.284849] r8169 :03:00.0: eth0: link up [ 184.292178] ADDRCONF(NETDEV_CHANGE): eth0: link becomes ready [ 195.016023] eth0: no IPv6 routers present The eth0: link becomes ready line is the last line I get on the screen when I boot into single-user mode with networking enabled. I have no idea what's going on there, but there seems to be a kernel bug in there somewhere. When the system doesn't boot, did you try SysRq-w (hung tasks) and/or SysRq-t (all tasks)? Or SysRq-l (stack trace)? No I didn't. The server is remote, so next time I'm out that way I'll give it try. This server is also running Samba4 from the wheezy-backports repository (I tested it on my local server first, and it seemed to be working OK) so perhaps there is something about the backport that is causeing a problem. Again, I'll check that out next time I'm out there. Thanks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546261c0.8080...@torfree.net
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 12:36:14 -0500, Marty wrote: > On 11/11/2014 12:07 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote: > > > >There are no functional differences between an installation with > >sysvinit-core out of the box or an install where sysvinit-core is > >installed later, this is a fact. > > > >Allowing the user to choose this at install time from the interface is > >a "nice to have" feature (wishlist bug) not a RC bug like you were > >claiming earlier. > > There is a potential practical consequence of not advertising an > init alternative during setup. It makes users less likely to be > aware of it, or even aware that the init system has changed. New users do not need to be be aware of all the background to the choosing of a default init. No advertisement is needed. By definition, they do not care. They want Debian. Please let them have it. > They won't know they lost the choice they didn't know they had. Capisce? What choice have they lost? Whatever it was, it didn't exist as you imply in Wheezy. > They won't know, that is, until it bites them somewhere down the > line. Then they won't know where to look or who to blame, and will > blame Debian. What bites them? > Installation time may be only means that most users (like me*) ever > would learn about it. > > * Install instructions? We don't need no stinkin' instructions Reading? You are right. Who wants it? Just spew out nonsense and hope nobody notices. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014190207.0a0173abc...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
cross toolchains (was: emdebian.org off-line?)
On 2014-11-11 18:18 +0100, Tony van der Hoff wrote: > On 11/11/14 17:04, Frank wrote: >> >> On 11/11/2014 11:54 AM, Tony van der Hoff wrote: >>> Can anyone confirm that http://www.emdebian.org/ is currently not >>> responding? >>> >> >> Yes it's apparently down. Accessing a cached copy of the site reveals >> the whole project was winding down as of July. >> >> > Oh, bummer; I'll have to look elsewhere for my cross toolchains. Wookey is maintaining a repository for jessie/sid, see the Wiki[1] for instructions. Works great for me. :-) Cheers, Sven 1. https://wiki.debian.org/CrossToolchains -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/871tp9r1pt.fsf...@turtle.gmx.de
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 12:58:25 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote: > Brian wrote: > >Everyone gets it. Not everyone boots with it. Not everyone who boots > >first time with it gets to use it on subsequent boots. > > That is DEFINITELY a definition of "default" that is subject to very > differing opinions. Everyone gets systemd. This a a fact, not an opinion. Everyone can alter what they first boot with. This is a fact, not an opinion, Everyone can change the init system after first boot. This is a fact, not an opinion, > And there is a very distinct difference between "installed by > default" and "enabled by default." There may be. But, everyone gets systemd. (Please see above). > For the debian-installer, it ultimately comes down to which packages > are marked as essential in the repo, and what the installer does > with those packages "by default." Indeed it does. > Umm no-one has disputed that this is what happens. What many > have disputed is whether or not alternatives should be possible. > > Specifically, if not for debootstrap bug #668001, for which a patch > now exists, it would be possible to do a netinst that does not > install systemd as PID1. Really? You have tested this? > Further, at least some are advocating for making that choice > available as part of the menu presented by the installer. Yes they have. > The package management system provides for alternatives. A bug in > debootstrap gets in the way. When this bug is fixed all will be sweetness and light? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014185124.gi3...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Joey Hess is out?
Don Armstrong writes: > Sexism like this is inappropriate in Debian. Please stop. Ok. List-parental-units. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/8761ely3yf@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: Installing Android development software
>apt-cache search android | less >returns some interesting results? That was useful to know how to search the APT cache. I am thinking of starting a new thread as I am completely unable to find any of the files and folders I created when I downloaded and installed the adt-bundle. I definitely had it on my system but now I can't find it. I was wondering if it could have uninstalled itself. The other possibility is I am not searching in the right places and am not using the find files procedure correctly. Best wishes Steve On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 9:58 AM, Chris Bannister wrote: > On Sun, Nov 09, 2014 at 05:50:19PM +, Steve Greig wrote: >> I thought I would try and build an Android app and see that you have >> to download and install some software: >> adt-bundle-linux-x86_64-20140702.zip >> >> >> Before doing this (I often find installs go wrong) I was wondering if >> it is possible to do it using apt which I have had some success with. >> >> >> Would be very grateful for any insight into this. Basically I don't >> really know how to see what software is available to me via apt. I am >> running Wheezy. > > apt-cache search android | less > > returns some interesting results? > > -- > "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people > who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the > oppressing." --- Malcolm X > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014095846.GE12428@tal > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CA+AcE6fO0ej1u-3WKhLCvVcq3L_Wf=jaTW_tJ5sY5=qcd0f...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Valuing non-code contributions -- was Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
Le 11/11/2014 18:59, Don Armstrong a écrit : > On Tue, 11 Nov 2014, Rob Owens wrote: >> This type of comment says to me that my contributions to Debian are >> useless if they are not in the form of code. > https://contributors.debian.org/ is everyone who we know has contributed > to Debian in one of the ways that we currently measure. [Granted, it's > not complete, but people are working on it.] > > See https://contributors.debian.org/contributor/don%40debian for > example. > > All kinds of contributions to Debian are welcome. > > But that said, at the end of the day, someone has to do the work. > Whether it's the work writing documentation, filing bugs, writing > patches, testing patches, answering questions, or helping others, if no > one does the work, the work doesn't get done. > > When I (or someone else) asks people to "show us the code", it's really > just shorthand for "someone needs to do this work, and it currently > isn't important enough for me to do it." > Asking to provide a patch to an utterly compex code is just cpomplete non-sens and hypocrisy : one cannot patch any complex software without working on it for long hours. And when the probleme is te basic design of the software a patch is not conceivable. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54625297.70...@rail.eu.org
Re: umask has no man page?
While I like the dhelp script idea, I think man is a pure UX issue - man should generally DWIM because if I type "man foo", I don't want to jump through hoops. There times (looking at libraries and system calls and the like) that knowing the system helps. However, with >20 (IDR how many - a bunch) this gets annoying. I think the easiest fix would be for debian to have a per shell alternatives search (/etc/alternatives/man/) that the shell's global rc can prepend to $MANPATH (of course, I compile zsh from git, so no help for me, but w/e). This way we can include builtins for shells and they are no longer there when we switch shells. On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Carl Fink wrote: > However, doesn't the Debian policy manual require a man page for every > program? These aren't programs (though, man [ DWIM - guess it's both a program AND a builtin - ugh) these are a part of your shell - a program, but it's like arguing that each program function gets a manpage - not happening. > Wouldn't that lead users to try the man system to get help on every > command, since a new or non-technical user would have no way to know that > umask or read or fg is not a "program" but a personality of Bash? So why > _not_ have a man page for them? And I agree with this (again because the man system should try to DWIM). Just not as a part of a global man system (because that would fail to DWIM which has already been pointed out for the which command). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAH_OBicFXPCU=psJ_UHLYDqsSFFeuGQjG-13P=fwflgrejt...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Joey Hess is out?
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014, John Hasler wrote:
> Vernacular for moderators, making sure that we play nice.
On Wed, 12 Nov 2014, Bret Busby wrote:
> Women who hit you with a list of things to do ("Clean up your
> room!...Mow The lawns!Wash the dishes") instead of hitting you
> over the head with a hockey stick (Hockeymoms), or putting the boot in
> (soccer moms).
>
> Mailing lists have list administrators, but, someone on thi list,
> appears to think the list is run by a bunch of women
Sexism like this is inappropriate in Debian. Please stop.
--
Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com
I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be
pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My
life is my own. I resign.
-- Patrick McGoohan as Number 6 in "The Prisoner"
--
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Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014181943.gp4...@rzlab.ucr.edu
Re: Valuing non-code contributions -- was Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014, Rob Owens wrote: > This type of comment says to me that my contributions to Debian are > useless if they are not in the form of code. https://contributors.debian.org/ is everyone who we know has contributed to Debian in one of the ways that we currently measure. [Granted, it's not complete, but people are working on it.] See https://contributors.debian.org/contributor/don%40debian for example. All kinds of contributions to Debian are welcome. But that said, at the end of the day, someone has to do the work. Whether it's the work writing documentation, filing bugs, writing patches, testing patches, answering questions, or helping others, if no one does the work, the work doesn't get done. When I (or someone else) asks people to "show us the code", it's really just shorthand for "someone needs to do this work, and it currently isn't important enough for me to do it." -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. -- Robert Heinlein -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014175956.go4...@rzlab.ucr.edu
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On 11/11/2014 12:07 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote: > There are no functional differences between an installation with > sysvinit-core out of the box or an install where sysvinit-core is > installed later, this is a fact. Irrelevant. > Allowing the user to choose this at install time from the interface is > a "nice to have" feature (wishlist bug) not a RC bug like you were > claiming earlier. Opinion... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546251e8.7090...@libertytrek.org
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 12:00:23 -0500, Tanstaafl wrote: > On 11/11/2014 11:38 AM, The Wanderer wrote: > > Other people subscribe to a meaning of "default" which, e.g., assumes > > only that systemd will get installed as PID 1 unless some action is > > taken to prevent it from getting so installed. That seems like an > > entirely reasonable interpretation, at least to me. > > Absolutely correct. The concept 'Default' implies that there are > *alternatives*. Have you ever tried to use an alternative to systemd when installing Debian or aftewards. It is unbelievably easy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014180036.63ce95dd8...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
advice on choosing an AMD chipset
Dear Folks, I am planning to order the components for a new PC that I will put together myself with a bit of help from the local PC store I use for repairs etc. At first I had thought to buy an FX 8350 motherboard plus fan and some RAM and a power supply e.g. Corsair Builder Series CXM 750W Modular 80 PLUS. The case could be a large one e.g. Cooler Master HAF X USB 3.0 XL ATX Case. Perhaps that is too big but it would have good ventilation. I would add a flash drive (SSD) and an optical drive and run with it for a number of months and then get a graphics card etc - probably an Nvidia one. I started looking at the AMD Kaveri A10-7850K processor and reviews comparing it with the FX8350 etc. At first it seemed that the FX8350 was faster per $ or £ than the Kaveri and that a separate graphics card like an Nvidia one was a better option according to various web sites I visited on the subject. But then I read about HSA (Heterogeneous System Architecture) and discovered that it had been used to make e.g. libre office run a lot more efficiently. I don't do gaming so I don't need powerful graphics acceleration. I began to realise that the graphics acceleration produced by the Kaveri processor would probably be adequate for my own requirements. >From what I can see looking at some tests done by Phoronix it works a lot better than typical on board graphics would do on a conventional CPU set up. It also seems that the open source drivers work pretty well for Radeon graphics cards. My question to you is this: if I would choose the Kaveri processor (and probably not bother adding either an Nvidia card or an extra Radeon card) and run with it, how rapidly (e.g. 2- 3 years) do you think HSA enhancements and optimisations of popular packages used in Debian etc be created and incorporated into new releases (e.g. Jessie and beyond)? How much potential do you think HSA has? Regards Michael Fothergill
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
Le mardi, 11 novembre 2014, 12.34:10 Miles Fidelman a écrit : > Laurent Bigonville wrote: > > There are no functional differences between an installation with > > sysvinit-core out of the box or an install where sysvinit-core is > > installed later, this is a fact. > > No, that's NOT a fact. At least it's not a tested and demonstrated > fact for complex configurations such as virtualized environments with > complicated file system wiring. Laurent has put up a claim with which you disagree out of guessing, without putting up any demonstrable or testable counter-proof yourself. > (…) > I'm not particularly interested in testing how well install/replace > systemd and its dependencies works in our environment (both hypervisor > level or guest debootstrapped guest domain). If I rephrase what you're saying, you're basically expecting others to make sure your environment still works as you see fit across the wheezy- to-jessie upgrade, right? That's really too bad, because you're exactly the one best person to detect problems, write constructive bug reports or provide patches (or wording suggestions) for the upgrade notes to make sure your environment will work as you see fit after the upgrade to Jessie (be it for dist- upgrades or new installations, by the way). If you are not doing the work needed, why would others? You seem to be projecting very high expectations onto the Debian project and its volunteers, without acknowledging the fact that you're getting this work exactly for free, which I think is unfair (but that's probably just me). OdyX -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5180530.PJB8ggEslL@gyllingar
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
Brian wrote: On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 11:38:19 -0500, The Wanderer wrote: On 11/11/2014 at 10:54 AM, Brian wrote: systemd is the default init system. That means everyone gets it. No - that only means that everyone gets it by default, not necessarily that everyone gets it. Everyone gets it. Not everyone boots with it. Not everyone who boots first time with it gets to use it on subsequent boots. That is DEFINITELY a definition of "default" that is subject to very differing opinions. And there is a very distinct difference between "installed by default" and "enabled by default." For the debian-installer, it ultimately comes down to which packages are marked as essential in the repo, and what the installer does with those packages "by default." Unfortunately, no one seems interested in recognizing that people *DO NOT AGREE* about what the word "default" means (or should mean) in the context of "the default init system", or in having a discussion about what it should mean - or even in figuring out what each other do mean by that term, and possibly finding other ways to describe those meanings so that the ambiguity goes away. You can only have one init system as PID 1, so that means changing to an alternative involves removing systemd first. Only if systemd is already installed as PID 1, which is precisely what the disagreement is about. You subscribe to a meaning of "default" which assumes that systemd must necessarily get installed as PID 1 before anything else happens. That's also what the current state of what actually happens is. Other people subscribe to a meaning of "default" which, e.g., assumes only that systemd will get installed as PID 1 unless some action is taken to prevent it from getting so installed. That seems like an entirely reasonable interpretation, at least to me. It looks to me like you're assuming the consequent - building your argument on the assumption that what your opponent is arguing against is the truth. That's not really a good way to make progress in any discussion. Isn't the installation of systemd as PID 1 from, for example, a netinst image a fact? In all this discussion no-one has disputed this. Umm no-one has disputed that this is what happens. What many have disputed is whether or not alternatives should be possible. Specifically, if not for debootstrap bug #668001, for which a patch now exists, it would be possible to do a netinst that does not install systemd as PID1. Further, at least some are advocating for making that choice available as part of the menu presented by the installer. "Clean" install is a bogus target. There is not a single technical advantage in pursuing it as a feature to add to d-i. Changing the init system within the package management framework works and has no disadvantages. At the very least, it has the minor disadvantage of wasting resources (time, CPU power, write cycles, et cetera) on installing the non-desired package to begin with. Other disadvantages may be more a matter of opinion, but that one at least does exist, however negligible it may arguably be. I'd like to say it is negligible and merely a consequence of using the package management system as intended. The package management system provides for alternatives. A bug in debootstrap gets in the way. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54624e41.3000...@meetinghouse.net
Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
Tanstaafl wrote: On 11/11/2014 9:26 AM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: Blaming the Debian project for letting the Debian distribution evolve in ways defined by its volunteers is unfair. Eh? My understanding is that this systemd mess is due to a vote of the technical committee, a vote that was in fact tied and the chair had to cast the tie-breaker. Hardly waht I would call an 'evolution defined by its volunteers'... Not to mention looking more and more like "evolution toward a monoculture, as defined by Lennart Poettering" (with a stated intent to direct the evolution of all distros and the kernel), with all others becoming less and less relevant. Miles Fidelman -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546249c5.4060...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 11:38:19 -0500, The Wanderer wrote: > On 11/11/2014 at 10:54 AM, Brian wrote: > > > systemd is the default init system. That means everyone gets it. > > No - that only means that everyone gets it by default, not necessarily > that everyone gets it. Everyone gets it. Not everyone boots with it. Not everyone who boots first time with it gets to use it on subsequent boots. > Unfortunately, no one seems interested in recognizing that people *DO > NOT AGREE* about what the word "default" means (or should mean) in the > context of "the default init system", or in having a discussion about > what it should mean - or even in figuring out what each other do mean by > that term, and possibly finding other ways to describe those meanings so > that the ambiguity goes away. > > > You can only have one init system as PID 1, so that means changing to > > an alternative involves removing systemd first. > > Only if systemd is already installed as PID 1, which is precisely what > the disagreement is about. > > You subscribe to a meaning of "default" which assumes that systemd must > necessarily get installed as PID 1 before anything else happens. That's > also what the current state of what actually happens is. > > Other people subscribe to a meaning of "default" which, e.g., assumes > only that systemd will get installed as PID 1 unless some action is > taken to prevent it from getting so installed. That seems like an > entirely reasonable interpretation, at least to me. > > It looks to me like you're assuming the consequent - building your > argument on the assumption that what your opponent is arguing against is > the truth. That's not really a good way to make progress in any discussion. Isn't the installation of systemd as PID 1 from, for example, a netinst image a fact? In all this discussion no-one has disputed this. > > "Clean" install is a bogus target. There is not a single technical > > advantage in pursuing it as a feature to add to d-i. Changing the > > init system within the package management framework works and has no > > disadvantages. > > At the very least, it has the minor disadvantage of wasting resources > (time, CPU power, write cycles, et cetera) on installing the non-desired > package to begin with. > > Other disadvantages may be more a matter of opinion, but that one at > least does exist, however negligible it may arguably be. I'd like to say it is negligible and merely a consequence of using the package management system as intended. > (Hmm. There may be a parallel here; many of those objecting to systemd > do so on the grounds that it violates what they see as clean design, and > at least one of the people objecting to the "install systemd as PID 1 > and then remove it later before ever booting into it" approach seems to > be doing so on the grounds that that is not a clean design...) Sorry, I don't do sysvinit vs systemd arguments. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014172959.f3d4552d2...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: emdebian.org off-line?
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 17:05:35 + Tony van der Hoff wrote: Hello Tony, >Thanks, Brad; I'll bookmark that! YW. It's a handy site to know about, IMO. -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent" Gary don't need his eyes to see. Gary and his eyes have parted company Gary Gilmore's Eyes - The Adverts pgp29jRDc6MoZ.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
Le Tue, 11 Nov 2014 11:58:33 -0500, Tanstaafl a écrit : > On 11/11/2014 9:26 AM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > > Blaming the Debian project for letting the Debian distribution > > evolve in ways defined by its volunteers is unfair. > > Eh? My understanding is that this systemd mess is due to a vote of the > technical committee, a vote that was in fact tied and the chair had to > cast the tie-breaker. > > Hardly waht I would call an 'evolution defined by its volunteers'... The members of the project have delegated the power to arbitrate technical decisions to the the technical committee via the constitution. Some people might not agree with this, but this how the project is working today. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014182326.5294f...@fornost.bigon.be
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On 11/11/2014 12:07 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote: Le Tue, 11 Nov 2014 07:42:33 -0500, Tanstaafl a écrit : On 11/10/2014 6:18 PM, Michael Biebl wrote: > Am 11.11.2014 um 00:14 schrieb Miles Fidelman: >> Ok, then explain to me the procedure for running the installer in >> such a way that systemd is never installed, thus avoiding any >> potential problems that might result from later uninstallation all >> the dependencies that systemd brings in with it. > Please be specific. What problems of of dependencies are you > talking about? Please stop bring up irrelevant questions and address the question being asked. This does require you to at least understand and acknowledge the difference between a *clean* install, and installing something one way, then having to uninstall a primary piece and replace it with something else. The two are not the same, and no amount of you trying to act as if they are will change the fact that they are not. There are no functional differences between an installation with sysvinit-core out of the box or an install where sysvinit-core is installed later, this is a fact. Allowing the user to choose this at install time from the interface is a "nice to have" feature (wishlist bug) not a RC bug like you were claiming earlier. There is a potential practical consequence of not advertising an init alternative during setup. It makes users less likely to be aware of it, or even aware that the init system has changed. They won't know they lost the choice they didn't know they had. Capisce? They won't know, that is, until it bites them somewhere down the line. Then they won't know where to look or who to blame, and will blame Debian. Installation time may be only means that most users (like me*) ever would learn about it. * Install instructions? We don't need no stinkin' instructions -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5462490e.4040...@ix.netcom.com
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
Laurent Bigonville wrote: Le Tue, 11 Nov 2014 07:42:33 -0500, Tanstaafl a écrit : On 11/10/2014 6:18 PM, Michael Biebl wrote: Am 11.11.2014 um 00:14 schrieb Miles Fidelman: Ok, then explain to me the procedure for running the installer in such a way that systemd is never installed, thus avoiding any potential problems that might result from later uninstallation all the dependencies that systemd brings in with it. Please be specific. What problems of of dependencies are you talking about? Please stop bring up irrelevant questions and address the question being asked. This does require you to at least understand and acknowledge the difference between a *clean* install, and installing something one way, then having to uninstall a primary piece and replace it with something else. The two are not the same, and no amount of you trying to act as if they are will change the fact that they are not. There are no functional differences between an installation with sysvinit-core out of the box or an install where sysvinit-core is installed later, this is a fact. No, that's NOT a fact. At least it's not a tested and demonstrated fact for complex configurations such as virtualized environments with complicated file system wiring. Based on previous experience, mostly with mail systems (install exim, then replace with sendmail) and filesystems, it's very easy to find oneself with all kinds of artifacts left behind by an install/replace process; as well as finding one's way into lots of packages getting installed/replaced and associated dependency hell. I'm not particularly interested in testing how well install/replace systemd and its dependencies works in our environment (both hypervisor level or guest debootstrapped guest domain). Particularly during a period where interfaces and dependencies are in flux as a result of ongoing bug fixes. I want to avoid the mess entirely with a clean install. Allowing the user to choose this at install time from the interface is a "nice to have" feature (wishlist bug) not a RC bug like you were claiming earlier. Actually, I don't really care about choosing it from the installer command line - THAT's a nice-to-have, but (IMHO) a nice-to-have at least as important as the choice of bootloaders provided during expert install. What should be (IMHO) a RC bug is the fact that you can't control this with a preseed command. Obviously those making the decisions disagree. Miles Fidelman -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54624892.9010...@meetinghouse.net
Re: INTEL HD Graphics
On 2014-11-11 Lisi Reisz wrote: > Intel runs fine on Wheezy, though you do need a kernel upgrade in the > form of a backported kernel for some (though not all) Intel drivers. Of course, but if you are using backported packages, you are not really running Wheezy anymore. Morten -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm64htp.mh0@gatsby.mbjnet.dk
Re: Joey Hess is out?
On 11/11/2014, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 08:00:27AM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
>> Chris Bannister writes:
>> > I read that as 'trouble unsubscribing?' then Contact
>> > listmas...@lists.debian.org.
>>
>> I read it as 'technical trouble with this list'. You're right, though:
>> now that we have listmoms the footer needs to be redone. File a
>> wishlist bug.
>
> 'listmoms'?
>
Women who hit you with a list of things to do ("Clean up your
room!...Mow The lawns!Wash the dishes") instead of hitting you
over the head with a hockey stick (Hockeymoms), or putting the boot in
(soccer moms).
Mailing lists have list administrators, but, someone on thi list,
appears to think the list is run by a bunch of women
Listmoms is not a term that I would use for people running a mailing list...
Isn't this thread, dead yet?
Seems to start looking like a dead horse that people keep propping up,
so that they can try to flog it off to someone ("It is not dead - it
is just resting")...
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..
"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992
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Re: INTEL HD Graphics
On 11 November 2014 16:06, Morten Bo Johansen wrote: > On 2014-11-11 Lisi Reisz wrote: > >> On 11 November 2014 10:25, Morten Bo Johansen wrote: >>> On 2014-11-11 Man_Without_Clue wrote: > Really? Wheezy? HD4600? No kernel upgrade or anything? > >>> No, you need Jessie. In Wheezy the Vesa fallback is used. > >> Intel in general works fine in Wheezy. > > Support for HD 4600 was introduced in kernel 3.9. Wheezy uses > kernel 3.2, so you need Jessie which uses 3.16. peter@Nyx:~$ uname -a Linux Nyx 3.16-0.bpo.3-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 3.16.5-1~bpo70+1 (2014-11-02) x86_64 GNU/Linux peter@Nyx:~$ cat /etc/debian_version 7.7 peter@Nyx:~$ Intel runs fine on Wheezy, though you do need a kernel upgrade in the form of a backported kernel for some (though not all) Intel drivers. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cap6gwwqkdmkdpdvhcpmsxm1y9tz+3o4qptbntzdeyhw-lir...@mail.gmail.com
Re: emdebian.org off-line?
On 11/11/14 17:04, Frank wrote: > > On 11/11/2014 11:54 AM, Tony van der Hoff wrote: >> Can anyone confirm that http://www.emdebian.org/ is currently not >> responding? >> > > Yes it's apparently down. Accessing a cached copy of the site reveals > the whole project was winding down as of July. > > Oh, bummer; I'll have to look elsewhere for my cross toolchains. Thanks! -- Tony van der Hoff| mailto:t...@vanderhoff.org Buckinghamshire, England | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546244d3.10...@vanderhoff.org
Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
On 11/11/2014 9:26 AM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > Blaming the Debian project for letting the Debian distribution evolve in > ways defined by its volunteers is unfair. Eh? My understanding is that this systemd mess is due to a vote of the technical committee, a vote that was in fact tied and the chair had to cast the tie-breaker. Hardly waht I would call an 'evolution defined by its volunteers'... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54624039.8030...@libertytrek.org
Re: Unable too boot after fresh install of latest "testing"
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 11:09:17 +0200 Jarle Aase wrote: > tried to install from > /cdimage/weekly-builds/amd64/iso-cddebian-testing-amd64-kde-CD-1.iso > (dd'd to a USB disk) when I ran into all these problems. Today I tried > again with the latest debian-testing-amd64-CD-1.iso, using full disk > encryption and btrfs on /. No problems at all. The machine boots and I'm > happy :) > > There is obviously a bug in the installer in > iso-cddebian-testing-amd64-kde-CD-1.iso. How/where is the the > appropriate place to report that? Maybe the bug was fixed in meanwhile and KDE CD is now also OK. -- http://markorandjelovic.hopto.org One should not be afraid of humans. Well, I am not afraid of humans, but of what is inhuman in them. Ivo Andric, "Signs near the travel-road" -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014181332.6498a...@sbb.rs
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
Le Tue, 11 Nov 2014 07:42:33 -0500, Tanstaafl a écrit : > On 11/10/2014 6:18 PM, Michael Biebl wrote: > > Am 11.11.2014 um 00:14 schrieb Miles Fidelman: > >> Ok, then explain to me the procedure for running the installer in > >> such a way that systemd is never installed, thus avoiding any > >> potential problems that might result from later uninstallation all > >> the dependencies that systemd brings in with it. > > > Please be specific. What problems of of dependencies are you > > talking about? > > Please stop bring up irrelevant questions and address the question > being asked. > > This does require you to at least understand and acknowledge the > difference between a *clean* install, and installing something one > way, then having to uninstall a primary piece and replace it with > something else. > > The two are not the same, and no amount of you trying to act as if > they are will change the fact that they are not. There are no functional differences between an installation with sysvinit-core out of the box or an install where sysvinit-core is installed later, this is a fact. Allowing the user to choose this at install time from the interface is a "nice to have" feature (wishlist bug) not a RC bug like you were claiming earlier. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014180749.7e240...@fornost.bigon.be
Re: emdebian.org off-line?
On 11/11/14 16:58, Brad Rogers wrote: > On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 16:54:33 + > Tony van der Hoff wrote: > > Hello Tony, > >> Can anyone confirm that http://www.emdebian.org/ is currently not >> responding? > > At times like this, I use http://www.isup.me to see if it's "just me" or > there's a bigger problem. The site confirms (I couldn't get to it, > either) that the site is currently unavailable. > Thanks, Brad; I'll bookmark that! -- Tony van der Hoff| mailto:t...@vanderhoff.org Buckinghamshire, England | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546241df.7050...@vanderhoff.org
Re: emdebian.org off-line?
On 11/11/2014 11:54 AM, Tony van der Hoff wrote: Can anyone confirm that http://www.emdebian.org/ is currently not responding? Yes it's apparently down. Accessing a cached copy of the site reveals the whole project was winding down as of July. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54624192.8090...@videotron.ca
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
Tanstaafl wrote: On 11/11/2014 11:38 AM, The Wanderer wrote: Other people subscribe to a meaning of "default" which, e.g., assumes only that systemd will get installed as PID 1 unless some action is taken to prevent it from getting so installed. That seems like an entirely reasonable interpretation, at least to me. Absolutely correct. The concept 'Default' implies that there are *alternatives*. +1 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54624137.7030...@meetinghouse.net
Re: emdebian.org off-line?
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 16:54:33 + Tony van der Hoff wrote: Hello Tony, >Can anyone confirm that http://www.emdebian.org/ is currently not >responding? At times like this, I use http://www.isup.me to see if it's "just me" or there's a bigger problem. The site confirms (I couldn't get to it, either) that the site is currently unavailable. -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent" We don't need no-one to tell us what's right or wrong The Modern World - The Jam pgpCmsig5UpTa.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On 11/11/2014 11:38 AM, The Wanderer wrote: > Other people subscribe to a meaning of "default" which, e.g., assumes > only that systemd will get installed as PID 1 unless some action is > taken to prevent it from getting so installed. That seems like an > entirely reasonable interpretation, at least to me. Absolutely correct. The concept 'Default' implies that there are *alternatives*. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546240a7.6060...@libertytrek.org
Re: Wheezy fails to complete boot after last update
Am 11.11.2014 um 17:48 schrieb Gary Dale: >> Update: booting using sysrescuecd, I removed the >> /etc/rcS.d/S13networking link and rebooted into single-user mode. It >> completed OK, so I then ran /etc/init.d/networking start, which >> exhibited the same problems it did when run by init. However this time >> I was able to kill the process, at which point I noted the network had >> been started. Exiting from the single-user mode allowed the boot to >> continue to a normal command prompt. >> >> This still leaves me with the problem of not being able to reboot the >> computer remotely, since the workaround involves disabling the network. >> >> dmesg shows the following from the last boot: >> >> [ 181.805309] r8169 :03:00.0: firmware: agent loaded >> rtl_nic/rtl8168e-3.fw into memory >> [ 181.917202] r8169 :03:00.0: eth0: link down >> [ 181.920948] r8169 :03:00.0: eth0: link down >> [ 181.928316] ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): eth0: link is not ready >> [ 184.284849] r8169 :03:00.0: eth0: link up >> [ 184.292178] ADDRCONF(NETDEV_CHANGE): eth0: link becomes ready >> [ 195.016023] eth0: no IPv6 routers present >> >> The eth0: link becomes ready line is the last line I get on the screen >> when I boot into single-user mode with networking enabled. I have no idea what's going on there, but there seems to be a kernel bug in there somewhere. When the system doesn't boot, did you try SysRq-w (hung tasks) and/or SysRq-t (all tasks)? Or SysRq-l (stack trace)? >> Should it have something about IPv6 in it (or at least somewhere)? Or >> is there some other error? IPv6 should be irrelevant here, the 'no IPv6 routers present' message is just that the kernel didn't see any router advertisements - if you don't have IPv6 in your subnet, that's normal and harmless. Christian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5462405d.5080...@iwakd.de
emdebian.org off-line?
Can anyone confirm that http://www.emdebian.org/ is currently not responding? -- Tony van der Hoff| mailto:t...@vanderhoff.org Buckinghamshire, England | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54623f49.4060...@vanderhoff.org
Re: Wheezy fails to complete boot after last update
On 04/11/14 01:10 AM, Gary Dale wrote: On 03/11/14 12:23 PM, Gary Dale wrote: After the last upgrade (kernel 3.2.0-4-amd64 and wget), I have a Debian/Wheezy server that isn't starting. It gets to the network then stops. The system isn't hung - it will still output messages to the screen when I plug and unplug USB devices, and I can use the SysRq key to do the reisub bit and see the messages from the various commands. When I boot to rescue mode, I get to the same point but it shows more network messages that seem to show the eth0 link is up, but it doesn't get beyond that. I can boot from sysrescuecd and everything works. And I can run the system in chroot and start the services I need for it do its job temporarily (bind, samba, cups) but I can't ssh to it. This is a pain because the server is remote (35 minutes away) so I can only work on it in person. And in person I have to steal a keyboard and monitor from another machine. Anyway, within the chroot I can view the various system logs but they don't show much. They show me (remotely) rebooting the server after the kernel upgrade then nothing until I chroot into it from sysrescuecd. Dmesg is similarly absent. The dmesg log is from the previous time I rebooted. The onscreen messages during a boot showed the system failing to load the firmware for the Realtek NIC (8111E) but installing the realtek firmware package didn't help - it just fixed the error message. The system is an ASUS M5A88-M mainboard with an AMD Fx4100 processor. It has a 3-disk mdadm RAID array setup as a RAID-1 /dev/md0 boot partition and RAID-5 /dev/md1p1 as root and /dev/md1p2 as /home. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can track down and/or fix this problem? Update: booting using sysrescuecd, I removed the /etc/rcS.d/S13networking link and rebooted into single-user mode. It completed OK, so I then ran /etc/init.d/networking start, which exhibited the same problems it did when run by init. However this time I was able to kill the process, at which point I noted the network had been started. Exiting from the single-user mode allowed the boot to continue to a normal command prompt. This still leaves me with the problem of not being able to reboot the computer remotely, since the workaround involves disabling the network. dmesg shows the following from the last boot: [ 181.805309] r8169 :03:00.0: firmware: agent loaded rtl_nic/rtl8168e-3.fw into memory [ 181.917202] r8169 :03:00.0: eth0: link down [ 181.920948] r8169 :03:00.0: eth0: link down [ 181.928316] ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): eth0: link is not ready [ 184.284849] r8169 :03:00.0: eth0: link up [ 184.292178] ADDRCONF(NETDEV_CHANGE): eth0: link becomes ready [ 195.016023] eth0: no IPv6 routers present The eth0: link becomes ready line is the last line I get on the screen when I boot into single-user mode with networking enabled. The previous dmesg.0 log from two months ago shows instead: [ 10.391548] r8169 :03:00.0: firmware: agent aborted loading rtl_nic/rtl8168e-3.fw (not found?) [ 10.391740] r8169 :03:00.0: eth0: unable to load firmware patch rtl_nic/rtl8168e-3.fw (-2) [ 10.405264] r8169 :03:00.0: eth0: link down [ 10.405333] r8169 :03:00.0: eth0: link down [ 10.408540] ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): eth0: link is not ready [ 11.061379] RPC: Registered named UNIX socket transport module. The first (firmware) message change reflects the installation of the firmware-realtek package in an effort to fix the problem. I'm guessing that the change is that networking is now bringing the link up because I switched to a static IP address, whereas previously it was brought up by dchp (with the router assigning an IP address using its internal dhcp server). This is my /etc/network/interfaces file: auto lo iface lo inet loopback auto eth0 iface eth0 inet static address 192.168.1.17 netmask 255.255.255.0 network 192.168.1.0 broadcast 192.168.1.255 gateway 192.168.1.1 Should it have something about IPv6 in it (or at least somewhere)? Or is there some other error? Christian, thanks for your help in my other problem. I was wondering if you have any suggestions on this one? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54623dc8.8010...@torfree.net
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On 11/11/2014 at 10:54 AM, Brian wrote: > On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 07:42:33 -0500, Tanstaafl wrote: > >> On 11/10/2014 6:18 PM, Michael Biebl wrote: >>> Please be specific. What problems of of dependencies are you >>> talking about? >> >> Please stop bring up irrelevant questions and address the question >> being asked. >> >> This does require you to at least understand and acknowledge the >> difference between a *clean* install, and installing something one >> way, then having to uninstall a primary piece and replace it with >> something else. > > systemd is the default init system. That means everyone gets it. No - that only means that everyone gets it by default, not necessarily that everyone gets it. Unfortunately, no one seems interested in recognizing that people *DO NOT AGREE* about what the word "default" means (or should mean) in the context of "the default init system", or in having a discussion about what it should mean - or even in figuring out what each other do mean by that term, and possibly finding other ways to describe those meanings so that the ambiguity goes away. > You can only have one init system as PID 1, so that means changing to > an alternative involves removing systemd first. Only if systemd is already installed as PID 1, which is precisely what the disagreement is about. You subscribe to a meaning of "default" which assumes that systemd must necessarily get installed as PID 1 before anything else happens. That's also what the current state of what actually happens is. Other people subscribe to a meaning of "default" which, e.g., assumes only that systemd will get installed as PID 1 unless some action is taken to prevent it from getting so installed. That seems like an entirely reasonable interpretation, at least to me. It looks to me like you're assuming the consequent - building your argument on the assumption that what your opponent is arguing against is the truth. That's not really a good way to make progress in any discussion. >> The two are not the same, and no amount of you trying to act as if >> they are will change the fact that they are not. > > "Clean" install is a bogus target. There is not a single technical > advantage in pursuing it as a feature to add to d-i. Changing the > init system within the package management framework works and has no > disadvantages. At the very least, it has the minor disadvantage of wasting resources (time, CPU power, write cycles, et cetera) on installing the non-desired package to begin with. Other disadvantages may be more a matter of opinion, but that one at least does exist, however negligible it may arguably be. (Hmm. There may be a parallel here; many of those objecting to systemd do so on the grounds that it violates what they see as clean design, and at least one of the people objecting to the "install systemd as PID 1 and then remove it later before ever booting into it" approach seems to be doing so on the grounds that that is not a clean design...) -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Valuing non-code contributions -- was Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
- Original Message - > From: <_...@debian.org> > Debian also was always and will always stay technically defined by those > volunteering to make it what it is. By extension, it is explicitly not > defined by those not putting work (but only words) into it; unmaintained > software and code paths are routinely removed when not enough volunteers > keep the things working, and that's a good thing. I don't mean to single out the poster of this comment, because it is something I've seen repeated by several Debian developers and some non-developers. Other forms of it are "If you want that fixed, please submit a patch", or the response I got to bug 762116, "Code changes the world". This type of comment says to me that my contributions to Debian are useless if they are not in the form of code. Like many here, I am not a coder. My words *are* my contribution. They come in the form of bug reports. They come in the form of technical discussion and (hopefully) clearly-stated needs/desires for certain functionality. They come in the form of convincing others to try Debian and bringing more users into our ecosystem -- users who may contribute in the same ways I have, or maybe even submit patches. So developers, I know you are volunteers. I don't expect you to do my bidding. But I think some of you could be more appreciative or accepting of non-code contributions. The "code is everything" attitude comes off as elitist, and I don't think that is truly how you mean to be. Code is certainly necessary, but it is not everything. The non-coders want Debian to succeed, too, and their contributions may come in the form of discussion about the right thing, the useful thing, the way to provide flexibility, the way to guarantee freedom, etc. The fact that Debian has a constitution and a social contract is evidence that Debian is more than just code. So please consider that before dismissing the discussions/contributions/desires/opinions of the non-coders out there. -Rob PS: A big "thank you" to all who have made positive contributions to Debian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1428000998.222818.1415722794353.javamail.zim...@ptd.net
Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: Blaming the Debian project for letting the Debian distribution evolve in ways defined by its volunteers is unfair. Blaming? Did I say a word about Stable becoming less and less stable since about Etch? No. Did I mention that I had to get almost all essential desktop software for this system running Wheezy elsewhere because the stuff provided by maintainers just didn't work right? No. I've been biting the bullet and solving my problems myself, because even Wheezy still was a fairly good Unix for my servers. Systemd/Linux is not, because it just isn't Unix any more. 21 years' worth of hard work simply goes down the drain. Once again, I don't blame anyone. It's sort of natural that all good things get spoilt, the better they are the sooner. It's a miracle Debian kept it up this long, considering the unparalleled quality of Woody. There is no blaming. There is pity. -- Best nightdreams. Serge Tiunov, "Do you really think you think http://e-head.net when you do think you do?" -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5462342f.50...@kem.ru
Re: should I really be using the amd64 list?
The description of the debian-amd64 list is "Debian port to AMD64 Porting Debian to AMD x86-64 architecture." so unless you're involved in Debian's amd64 porting effort I'd say you probably don't have any reason to post to that list. I remember a while back mostly 32bit users were on this list when amd64 was new. Then I think you were supposed to be on the amd64 list. Not any longer.. Thanks for pointing this out. Michael Fothergill
Re: umask has no man page?
Andrei POPESCU wrote: > songbird wrote: >> are you suggesting which be altered or the >> manual page be amended to include more information >> about what to do when which fails to report any >> matching command? > > I'd rather see which(1) be more informative about built-ins. there's a lot of room for the octopus growing ... i.e. there are a large number of interpreted languages and tools which have their own internal/ builtin commands (some using the same names as the binary versions e.g. apropos and gdb apropos). you might be more effective using a full man page index of some sort and a more general search tool. songbird -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/c6n9jb-km2@id-306963.user.uni-berlin.de
Re: INTEL HD Graphics
On 2014-11-11 Lisi Reisz wrote: > On 11 November 2014 10:25, Morten Bo Johansen wrote: >> On 2014-11-11 Man_Without_Clue wrote: >>> Really? Wheezy? HD4600? >>> No kernel upgrade or anything? >> No, you need Jessie. In Wheezy the Vesa fallback is used. > Intel in general works fine in Wheezy. Support for HD 4600 was introduced in kernel 3.9. Wheezy uses kernel 3.2, so you need Jessie which uses 3.16. Morten -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm64cvh.js2@gatsby.mbjnet.dk
Re: should I really be using the amd64 list?
On 11/11/14 15:23, Michael Fothergill wrote: Dear Debianists, Should I really be on the amd64 list not this one as an amd64 user? The description of the debian-amd64 list is "Debian port to AMD64 Porting Debian to AMD x86-64 architecture." so unless you're involved in Debian's amd64 porting effort I'd say you probably don't have any reason to post to that list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54623312.5080...@zen.co.uk
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
Brian wrote: On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 07:42:33 -0500, Tanstaafl wrote: On 11/10/2014 6:18 PM, Michael Biebl wrote: Am 11.11.2014 um 00:14 schrieb Miles Fidelman: Ok, then explain to me the procedure for running the installer in such a way that systemd is never installed, thus avoiding any potential problems that might result from later uninstallation all the dependencies that systemd brings in with it. Please be specific. What problems of of dependencies are you talking about? Please stop bring up irrelevant questions and address the question being asked. This does require you to at least understand and acknowledge the difference between a *clean* install, and installing something one way, then having to uninstall a primary piece and replace it with something else. systemd is the default init system. That means everyone gets it. You can only have one init system as PID 1, so that means changing to an alternative involves removing systemd first. This is basic package management and applies whether the removal takes place before or after the install's first boot. The two are not the same, and no amount of you trying to act as if they are will change the fact that they are not. "Clean" install is a bogus target. There is not a single technical advantage in pursuing it as a feature to add to d-i. Changing the init system within the package management framework works and has no disadvantages. In your opinion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5462328b.50...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 07:42:33 -0500, Tanstaafl wrote: > On 11/10/2014 6:18 PM, Michael Biebl wrote: > > Am 11.11.2014 um 00:14 schrieb Miles Fidelman: > >> Ok, then explain to me the procedure for running the installer in such a > >> way that systemd is never installed, thus avoiding any potential > >> problems that might result from later uninstallation all the > >> dependencies that systemd brings in with it. > > > Please be specific. What problems of of dependencies are you talking about? > > Please stop bring up irrelevant questions and address the question being > asked. > > This does require you to at least understand and acknowledge the > difference between a *clean* install, and installing something one way, > then having to uninstall a primary piece and replace it with something else. systemd is the default init system. That means everyone gets it. You can only have one init system as PID 1, so that means changing to an alternative involves removing systemd first. This is basic package management and applies whether the removal takes place before or after the install's first boot. > The two are not the same, and no amount of you trying to act as if they > are will change the fact that they are not. "Clean" install is a bogus target. There is not a single technical advantage in pursuing it as a feature to add to d-i. Changing the init system within the package management framework works and has no disadvantages. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014153843.e1576a4fa...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: INTEL HD Graphics
On 11 November 2014 10:25, Morten Bo Johansen wrote: > On 2014-11-11 Man_Without_Clue wrote: > >> Really? Wheezy? HD4600? >> No kernel upgrade or anything? > > No, you need Jessie. In Wheezy the Vesa fallback is used. Intel in general works fine in Wheezy. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cap6gwwpmrevwj5pzbebhknpqwdbk+_2u7dch0xpeefvcj+7...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 07:33:44 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote: > Brian wrote: > >Placing the bar so high at "clean" for the reason given is unwarranted, > >especially if preseeding with > > > >d-i base-installer/includes string sysvinit-core > > > >is done. Then systemd-sysv is cleanly removed during the install of the > >base system and there is no dependency hell to be considered. > > > >Having removed the reason we can now not just lower the bar but dispense > >with it entirely. Installing and booting with sysvinit-core becomes a > >non-issue. > > > Perhaps you should read bug 668001 We both took part in a similar discussion at https://lists.debian.org/543e5f34.6060...@meetinghouse.net When you re-read the thread you may want to revise your misplaced advice. > For Wheezy, if attempting a clean install of systemd: > > if you use debootstrap unstable foo --include=systemd-sysv > --exclude=sysvinit > the install fails > > For Jessie: > > The reverse fails. It is a complete success here with the beta2 d-i and preseeding. As dpkg says: considering removing systemd-sysv in favour of sysvinit-core ... yes, will remove systemd-sysv in favour of sysvinit-core It's the happy init camper's dream outcome with no downsides. > I'd be quite happy if the installer were capable of a clean choice of init; > at them moment that bug stands in the way. And it's not just a matter of > applying the (recently) contributed patch to debootstrap. One has to also > build an alternate installer. > > But maybe, you haven't been paying attention. My attention has been sufficient to see that any reasons you gave for desiring a "clean" choice over what is on offer are dead in the water. #668001 may not be the only thing standing in the way; I wish you well with your alternative installer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014153328.gh3...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
should I really be using the amd64 list?
Dear Debianists, Should I really be on the amd64 list not this one as an amd64 user? Regards Michael Fothergill
find problem
Hi all,
I'm struggling with a find problem.
I want to combine find and par2create recursively in order to get the
following done:
Foreach file with a certain suffix (e.g. avi) do par2create for that
file in its directory, so e.g.
I'm in /video
There are subfolders user1, user2 with videos video1.avi, video2.avi ...
in them.
The script should do something equivalent to:
cd /video/user1
par2create .video1.avi video1.avi
par2create .video2.avi video2.avi
cd /video/user2
par2create .video3.avi video3.avi
par2create .video4.avi video4.avi
cd
But I want to achieve this using the find command.
So I'd expect something like
find * -name "*.avi" -execdir par2create .'{}' '{} \;
but this doesn't work as expected - it creates the .*.avi files "one
folder above".
How does it work using the find command?
Thanks a lot!
--
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Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
Le mardi, 11 novembre 2014, 20.08:08 st a écrit : > Hans wrote: > > I just wanted to show ways, where EVERYONE might be happy > > Sure. Sure. Everybody who has invested years into learning > Debian is just jumping of joy now that it is suddenly turned > into a completely different OS _and_ they have to find another > Unix _and_ learn it almost from scratch _and_ figure out a way > to seamlessly migrate their servers and desktops and stuff. Debian was always and will always stay both free of charge and provided without warranty of any sort (besides the Social Contract). Your servers and desktops and stuff were running a full operating system stack absolutely for free, and the Debian project is both happy and proud of that fact. Debian also was always and will always stay technically defined by those volunteering to make it what it is. By extension, it is explicitly not defined by those not putting work (but only words) into it; unmaintained software and code paths are routinely removed when not enough volunteers keep the things working, and that's a good thing. Blaming the Debian project for letting the Debian distribution evolve in ways defined by its volunteers is unfair. Furthermore, Debian has always let people wanting to improve things do their work within the project (wherever possible in terms of collaboration with others, of course), aka "scratching their itch". It's been repeated many times already, but I'll try again: people expecting Jessie to work as best as they hoped wit sysvinit should have tested Jessie as early as possible (they should still do it now!) and reported useful bugs wherever they were encountering them. Debian maintainers put effort where they see fit (according to the Constitution's §2.1.1) and there's nothing in the project's structures imposing work on anyone, that's absolutely central to a project where people are not bound to work through a paycheck but by motivation. Claiming "I will take Jessie when released and complain that it doesn't do what I expect it to do if need be" is totally missing the point of a volunteer-run distribution such as Debian. That some people have built expectations of eternal immobilism on future Debian releases cannot be Debian's responsibility; Debian must be (and will be) able to continue drawing its own path as defined by those putting work in it. If you don't like that path, roll your sleeves up, and make the changes you wish to see in Debian! If it's not possible in Debian, by all means, please fork or derive from Debian to create your own flavour of the Debian distribution, taking what you find best in it and leaving aside what you don't want! Debian is an extraordinary coordinated collection of Free Software, that is available for you to take and modify as you see fit; please make the best use of that freedom! Thanks for reading so far, OdyX signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: grub-pc update causes mount hang
Chris Bannister wrote: > On Sun, Nov 09, 2014 at 12:24:03PM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: > > Joel Roth wrote: > > > Joel Roth wrote: > > > > Hi list, > > > > > > > > I've been upgrading my sid system. When grub goes > > > > to regenerate /boot/grub/grub.cfg, mount uses 100% CPU > > > > and causes these processes to hang: > > > > > > > > 10064 pts/1S 0:00 /bin/sh /usr/lib/os-probes/50mounted-tests > > > > /dev/sda4 > > > > 10075 pts/1R 7:33 mount -o ro -t ext4 /dev/sda4 > > > > /var/lib/os-prober/mount > > > > Okay, I did a workaround, so that dpkg --configure -a could finish. > > > > move update-grub update-grub.0 # (also for upgrade-grub2 to be sure) > > echo "exit 0" > update-grub > > chmod a+x update-grub > > > > Looking at the ps line above, I think it must be a bug > > either to try to mount an extended partition as ext4, or not > > to fail in mounting it. > > > > I'll have a look at the bug tracker. > > > > Thanks for providing ears to listen, and a sympathetic > > shoulder for my tears ;-) > > Have you got apt-listbugs installed? Pretty much essential if you're > running testing or sid. Thanks for the suggestion. I've got three little icons on my browser toolbar that search the clipboard text against the 1) bug tracking system, 2) package tracking system and 3) package database. apt-listbugs seems like a nice addition. > -- > "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people > who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the > oppressing." --- Malcolm X > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014113043.GF12428@tal > -- Joel Roth -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014143229.GA5918@sprite
Re: Joey Hess is out?
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 07:53:47 -0600 John Hasler wrote: > > I read it as 'technical trouble with this list'. You're right, though: > > now that we have listmoms the footer needs to be redone. File a > > wishlist bug. > > Chris Bannister writes: > > 'listmoms'? > > Vernacular for moderators, making sure that we play nice. Difficult to call them "gnomes" in a Debian (or even Linux) environment ;-3) Cheers, Ron. -- Intolerance is itself a form of violence and an obstacle to the growth of a true democratic spirit. -- Mahatma Gandhi -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014105817.16d25...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: Joey Hess is out?
Chris Bannister writes: > I read that as 'trouble unsubscribing?' then Contact > listmas...@lists.debian.org. I wrote: > I read it as 'technical trouble with this list'. You're right, though: > now that we have listmoms the footer needs to be redone. File a > wishlist bug. Chris Bannister writes: > 'listmoms'? Vernacular for moderators, making sure that we play nice. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87ioilyhas@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: need help in rights delegation to a freelance "web developer"
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 12:39:24PM +0500, Muhammad Yousuf Khan wrote: > last time he was facing issue with rewrite module. however i have installed > that module for sure. even i have check with apachectl command tool. though > it is resolved for now. > so i thought, in advance if there is any list of necessary modules that are > needed in default website deployment. that would be great. thus i will just > directly install the stuff without wasting time in research. As far as I know, the only non-default modules needed are mod_rewrite and mod_php. (WordPress is written in PHP.) Technically you could presumably skip mod_php and just use PHP as CGI but it would be both slower and potentially less secure. -- Carl Fink nitpick...@nitpicking.com Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations! Stupid mistakes you can correct! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014135228.ga3...@panix.com
Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
Hans wrote: > I just wanted to show ways, where EVERYONE might be happy Sure. Sure. Everybody who has invested years into learning Debian is just jumping of joy now that it is suddenly turned into a completely different OS _and_ they have to find another Unix _and_ learn it almost from scratch _and_ figure out a way to seamlessly migrate their servers and desktops and stuff. Yeah. Sure. -- Best nightdreams. Serge Tiunov, "Do you really think you think http://e-head.net when you do think you do?" -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54620a38.7070...@kem.ru
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On 11/10/2014 6:23 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: > On Mon, 10 Nov 2014, Michael Biebl wrote: >> systemd-networkd is an entirely optional component, you don't have to >> use it. >> systemd-udevd is also an individual component, which btw is also used >> under sysvinit (or upstart). You don't get really without a device >> manager nowadays. > Optional? Yes. A lot (most) of systemd is optional. (So, I've read.) > But isn't a lot of that optional stuff installed by default? But more importantly... how long before all that 'optional' stuff becomes no longer 'optional'? And before you call me a conspiracy theorist, please read and review Lennarts postings about long range goals with systemd... he makes his intentions plain as day. Maybe he is waiting for the day that Linus retires before the big push though, because I don't think Linus will let him get away with it... This is what concerns me the most about systemd. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54620689.6030...@libertytrek.org
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On 11/10/2014 6:32 PM, Michael Biebl wrote: > Am 11.11.2014 um 00:23 schrieb Patrick Bartek: >> Optional? Yes. A lot (most) of systemd is optional. (So, I've read.) >> But isn't a lot of that optional stuff installed by default? > It is, yes. We decided to not split up a 10M package into 20something > binary packages with complicated inter package dependencies for > basically no gain. You mean like how you split dovecot into 19 different packages? Sorry, couldn't resist. That is one of the first things that really threw me. Coming from gentoo, where there is generally only one package, but differently USE (compile) options... I understand the argument, but I prefer gentoo's way (which obviously won't work for binary distros like debian)... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54620650.30...@libertytrek.org
Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
Am Montag, 10. November 2014, 12:12:10 schrieb Don Armstrong: > On Mon, 10 Nov 2014, Tanstaafl wrote: > > Exactly. I for one am getting sick and tired of being called names on > > this list like 'hater' and 'whiner' Sorry, Don, I did not want to afferon t someone. As I am not native English speaking, I might have chosen the wrong expression. I apologize for that. And also sorry: I did not want to start a new thread, nor tried to troll (as someone blamed me. I just wanted to show ways, where EVERYONE might be happy with, just in the sense of open-source, free software and GPL. So much from me. Have a nice week. Hans -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1875790.ha6PgViyGM@protheus7
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On 11/10/2014 6:18 PM, Michael Biebl wrote: > Am 11.11.2014 um 00:14 schrieb Miles Fidelman: >> Ok, then explain to me the procedure for running the installer in such a >> way that systemd is never installed, thus avoiding any potential >> problems that might result from later uninstallation all the >> dependencies that systemd brings in with it. > Please be specific. What problems of of dependencies are you talking about? Please stop bring up irrelevant questions and address the question being asked. This does require you to at least understand and acknowledge the difference between a *clean* install, and installing something one way, then having to uninstall a primary piece and replace it with something else. The two are not the same, and no amount of you trying to act as if they are will change the fact that they are not. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54620439.50...@libertytrek.org
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
Brian wrote: On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 02:02:07 +0100, Michael Biebl wrote: Am 11.11.2014 um 01:58 schrieb Miles Fidelman: Michael Biebl wrote: Sorry, but that is not what I asked for. I asked for "specifics". Your answer doesn't contain any specific problem which would make me able to reproduce any problem. I've tested various use cases and "apt-get install -y sysvinit-core" always did the right thing. Please show me an example where it doesn't. Frankly, no. 40 years of experience administering various kinds of systems gives me some perspective. I've had enough experience with dependency hell on Debian (apt is phenomenal, expect when it isn't), and I've been reading enough bug reports and discussions on debian-devel and debian-user, that I don't need to waste time installing unstable, buggy software to tell me that all this stuff is going to cause me all kinds of trouble and waste all kinds of time that I really don't have to waste, just to verify instincts that I've come to trust over the years. Well, I trust hard facts and testing over your instincts. And those tell me, that you're claims are unfounded. Placing the bar so high at "clean" for the reason given is unwarranted, especially if preseeding with d-i base-installer/includes string sysvinit-core is done. Then systemd-sysv is cleanly removed during the install of the base system and there is no dependency hell to be considered. Having removed the reason we can now not just lower the bar but dispense with it entirely. Installing and booting with sysvinit-core becomes a non-issue. Perhaps you should read bug 668001 For Wheezy, if attempting a clean install of systemd: if you use debootstrap unstable foo --include=systemd-sysv --exclude=sysvinit the install fails For Jessie: The reverse fails. I'd be quite happy if the installer were capable of a clean choice of init; at them moment that bug stands in the way. And it's not just a matter of applying the (recently) contributed patch to debootstrap. One has to also build an alternate installer. But maybe, you haven't been paying attention. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54620228.9040...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
Le Tue, 11 Nov 2014 10:47:35 +0200, Andrei POPESCU a écrit : > On Lu, 10 nov 14, 21:12:10, Lee Winter wrote: > > > > Of all the options available in the NON-expert installer, the > > choice of init alternatives might not warrant a user selection > > option, but all of the _consequences_ of that selection, i.e., > > things that get sucked in, mandate that users be offered a choice. > > The systemd *package* would 'suck in' following packages (assuming > installation of Recommends, which is the default): I want to add to this that I tried the following: - Install a wheezy system with debootstrap in a chroot - Change the source.list to jessie - Install sysvinit-core from jessie - Dist-upgrade the chroot to jessie - Try to install the systemd-sysv package The extra dependencies being pulled are (with the recommends): root@fornost:/# apt-get install systemd-sysv Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following extra packages will be installed: acl dbus dmsetup libcap-ng0 libcryptsetup4 libdbus-1-3 libdevmapper1.02.1 libexpat1 libpam-systemd systemd Suggested packages: dbus-x11 systemd-ui The following packages will be REMOVED: sysvinit-core The following NEW packages will be installed: acl dbus dmsetup libcap-ng0 libcryptsetup4 libdbus-1-3 libdevmapper1.02.1 libexpat1 libpam-systemd systemd systemd-sysv 0 upgraded, 11 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded. Need to get 3597 kB of archives. After this operation, 14.8 MB of additional disk space will be used. Same without the recommends: root@fornost:/# apt-get install --no-install-recommends systemd-sysv Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following extra packages will be installed: acl dmsetup libcryptsetup4 libdevmapper1.02.1 systemd Suggested packages: systemd-ui Recommended packages: libpam-systemd dbus The following packages will be REMOVED: sysvinit-core The following NEW packages will be installed: acl dmsetup libcryptsetup4 libdevmapper1.02.1 systemd systemd-sysv 0 upgraded, 6 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded. Need to get 2934 kB of archives. After this operation, 12.8 MB of additional disk space will be used. As you can see the number of new dependencies being pulled are minimal. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014130718.2ce34...@fornost.bigon.be
kernel spamming log -- "sda: unknown partition table"
I get theese (totally benign) messages. How do I shut them up ? Running jessie. I suspect something is using resources scanning and re-scanning my drives, so the best solution would be to make that thing take a break and leave well enough alone. Barring that, I'd like to not have that noise bothering me. Nov 11 12:20:23 garbo kernel: [352931.388078] sda: unknown partition table Nov 11 12:20:25 garbo kernel: [352933.668659] sda: unknown partition table Nov 11 12:20:25 garbo kernel: [352933.902338] sdc: unknown partition table Nov 11 12:21:35 garbo kernel: [353003.971818] sda: unknown partition table Nov 11 12:21:37 garbo kernel: [353005.803811] sda: unknown partition table Nov 11 12:21:37 garbo kernel: [353006.224025] sdc: unknown partition table Nov 11 12:25:43 garbo kernel: [353251.378973] sda: unknown partition table Nov 11 12:25:45 garbo kernel: [353253.749432] sda: unknown partition table Nov 11 12:25:45 garbo kernel: [353254.341421] sda: unknown partition table Nov 11 12:25:46 garbo kernel: [353254.592933] sdc: unknown partition table Nov 11 12:30:43 garbo kernel: [353551.930959] sda: unknown partition table Nov 11 12:30:45 garbo kernel: [353554.042217] sda: unknown partition table Nov 11 12:30:45 garbo kernel: [353554.262593] sdc: unknown partition table For the curious: yes I believe I know what I am doing. The drives are unpartitioned lvm physical volumes. The underlying raid rounds the physical drive sizes down to allow slightly differing drives as part of the raid. I don't need to partition the drives. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5461f5b1.2040...@alstadheim.priv.no
Re: grub-pc update causes mount hang
[Please don't top post] On Sun, Nov 09, 2014 at 12:24:03PM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: > Joel Roth wrote: > > Joel Roth wrote: > > > Hi list, > > > > > > I've been upgrading my sid system. When grub goes > > > to regenerate /boot/grub/grub.cfg, mount uses 100% CPU > > > and causes these processes to hang: > > > > > > 10064 pts/1S 0:00 /bin/sh /usr/lib/os-probes/50mounted-tests > > > /dev/sda4 > > > 10075 pts/1R 7:33 mount -o ro -t ext4 /dev/sda4 > > > /var/lib/os-prober/mount > > Okay, I did a workaround, so that dpkg --configure -a could finish. > > move update-grub update-grub.0 # (also for upgrade-grub2 to be sure) > echo "exit 0" > update-grub > chmod a+x update-grub > > Looking at the ps line above, I think it must be a bug > either to try to mount an extended partition as ext4, or not > to fail in mounting it. > > I'll have a look at the bug tracker. > > Thanks for providing ears to listen, and a sympathetic > shoulder for my tears ;-) Have you got apt-listbugs installed? Pretty much essential if you're running testing or sid. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014113043.GF12428@tal
Re: Re: Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
>On Ma, 11 nov 14, 03:15:12, tor...@riseup.net wrote:
>>
>>"I don't want to use systemd, what are my options" inside of a debian
>> communication channel makes sense to me (assuming one has been a
>> Debian user in the past).
>https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#systemd
>Feel free to add anything that might be relevant for a Debian user
>(like the deboostraping without systemd or so).
>Kind regards,
>Andrei
You didn't get my point. I for one am not willing to do any extra work,
inside of Debian GNU/Linux. It is their decision, not mine, hence it
is not my problem to get it sorted (and yes, i got an account at
wiki.debian, and yes, i created a couple of pages, "diaspora").
If i ask in IRC i am getting told: Hey stop trolling, no such questions
here. Use systemd and be silent, we know what is good for you.
The lack of such documentation (say the wiki) *before* systemd was
decided to be made default (in sid it arrived quite a while ago, due to
that), was one of my problems too ("was": as long i used Debian).
But i really wrote that already, and i even stressed it by giving it a
whole paragraph:
> You missed the option to invest the energy in distributions which don't
> use systemd.
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Re: INTEL HD Graphics
On 2014-11-11 Man_Without_Clue wrote: > Really? Wheezy? HD4600? > No kernel upgrade or anything? No, you need Jessie. In Wheezy the Vesa fallback is used. Morten -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm63p1a.711@gatsby.mbjnet.dk
Re: Has the systemd fork already happened?
On Sun, Nov 09, 2014 at 11:28:29AM -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote: > golinux wrote: > > > >Yes, Refracta is pure unmodified Debian and uses the Debian repos! As > >suggested, please join the forums and contribute expertise if possible. > > > > And report back! Those of us who are still waiting and seeing, and > evaluating options might be interested. ^ Or might not! Surely, it behooves those that are interested to check the forums themselves, rather than polute this list further. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014095155.GD12428@tal
Re: INTEL HD Graphics
Really? Wheezy? HD4600? No kernel upgrade or anything? On 11/10/2014 11:15 PM, Dan wrote: *WORKS FOR ME NO PROBLEM, I'VE BEEN RUNNING WHEEZY FOR A LITTLE MORE THAN A YEAR, A1 SO FAR, * On 11/07/2014 10:05 PM, Joris Bolsens wrote: >From my experience yes, it works on jessie without any problems. On 11/07/2014 07:03 PM, Man_Without_Clue wrote: On 11/08/2014 11:57 AM, Joris Bolsens wrote: I have this one and had no issues with it, runs fine and I had to do no extra config/setup on my end. I currently have Jessie, so IDK how the support is on wheezy though. On 11/07/2014 06:52 PM, Man_Without_Clue wrote: Does anybody know if Intel HD 4600 or higher is supported by Debian or distro? I have seen numerous postings about problems with Intel with Linux even with Ubuntu... Anybody using Intel on Debian? Ok, thanks... So does that mean that it will work on Jessie then? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5461de88.7030...@gmail.com
Re: Installing Android development software
On Sun, Nov 09, 2014 at 05:50:19PM +, Steve Greig wrote: > I thought I would try and build an Android app and see that you have > to download and install some software: > adt-bundle-linux-x86_64-20140702.zip > > > Before doing this (I often find installs go wrong) I was wondering if > it is possible to do it using apt which I have had some success with. > > > Would be very grateful for any insight into this. Basically I don't > really know how to see what software is available to me via apt. I am > running Wheezy. apt-cache search android | less returns some interesting results? -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014095846.GE12428@tal
Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 10:02:12 +0100 Jean-Marc wrote: > > This kind of discussion made me unsubscribing to Debian lists. > If all these people code only 10 lines everytime they troll, > we can get a brand new init-system in less than a month. > Does this code have to make sense, or can it be just random gibberish? How long is it going to take someone who can spare, say, three hours a week to learn enough to actually make a positive contribution, given that an experienced coder landed us with Heartbleed, and another with hugely insufficient randomness in Debian's ssh? I hack a bit of PIC assembler regularly, but not continuously. I know that if I have to modify something a year old that I won't even recognise the code, and will spend an hour or two understanding how it works. How long is it going to take to learn enough about the Linux ecosystem to make a useful contribution to a major system program? At a couple of hours a week? Given that the last C I did was about a quarter of a century ago, on an ARM with a half-megabyte OS? And an init built by committee, at ten lines a session? I wouldn't expect my *government* to use code built like that. You cannot, as one Mr McEnroe once said, be serious. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014094000.5d5de...@jresid.jretrading.com
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On Mon 10 Nov 2014 at 18:11:42 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote: > Brian wrote: > >On Mon 10 Nov 2014 at 14:48:15 -0500, Tanstaafl wrote: > > > >>On 11/10/2014 2:44 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: > >>>Michael Biebl wrote: > Am 10.11.2014 um 19:26 schrieb Patrick Bartek: > >Maybe, the release after Jessie will include an init choice. > Ironically, jessie is the first release where you can actually install > an alternative init. > Up until now you were forced to use sysvinit. > > People seem to forget that. > >>>By the way, the bug that prevents pre-seeding a clean systemv > >>>installation, originally dates to problems pre-seeding a clean systemd > >>>install in Wheezy. Kind of ironic. > >>Not ironic... telling... > >> > >>This proves that the bug has been known for plenty long enough to have > >>gotten fixed... obviously someone didn't want to... > >You tell us that you didn't choose to fix the bug and neither did > >"someone". > > > >Furthermore, this "someone" actually didn't want to fix bug? You hint at > >knowledge only you possess. Please reveal all. This person deserves to > >be named and shamed. > > Actually, if you read the history of the bug, one of the earlier > comments was from Joey Hess, who commented: > > "I don't think that's necessarily true, there are many ways d-i > could handle getting systemd installed, and if it were made the > default, --exclude would not be needed at all." Indeed, '--exclude' isn't needed for d-i to install systemd. This was a perceptive comment. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014094332.gg3...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Installing an Alternative Init?
On Tue 11 Nov 2014 at 02:02:07 +0100, Michael Biebl wrote: > Am 11.11.2014 um 01:58 schrieb Miles Fidelman: > > > Michael Biebl wrote: > >> Sorry, but that is not what I asked for. I asked for "specifics". > >> Your answer doesn't contain any specific problem which would make me > >> able to reproduce any problem. > >> > >> I've tested various use cases and "apt-get install -y sysvinit-core" > >> always did the right thing. > >> > >> Please show me an example where it doesn't. > > > > Frankly, no. 40 years of experience administering various kinds of > > systems gives me some perspective. I've had enough experience with > > dependency hell on Debian (apt is phenomenal, expect when it isn't), and > > I've been reading enough bug reports and discussions on debian-devel and > > debian-user, that I don't need to waste time installing unstable, buggy > > software to tell me that all this stuff is going to cause me all kinds > > of trouble and waste all kinds of time that I really don't have to > > waste, just to verify instincts that I've come to trust over the years. > > Well, I trust hard facts and testing over your instincts. > > And those tell me, that you're claims are unfounded. Placing the bar so high at "clean" for the reason given is unwarranted, especially if preseeding with d-i base-installer/includes string sysvinit-core is done. Then systemd-sysv is cleanly removed during the install of the base system and there is no dependency hell to be considered. Having removed the reason we can now not just lower the bar but dispense with it entirely. Installing and booting with sysvinit-core becomes a non-issue. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014094233.gf3...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Unable to start kvm virtual machines after re-install of "testing"
Hi,
After a fresh reinstall of Debian "testing" today, I am unable to start
my virtual machines. I lost the configuration during the reinstall, but
have the disk images. I'm not sure if it is a bug or something wrong on
my machine. The images worked on Debian "testing" after an upgrade two
days ago).
Trying to import any of the VM's with "virt-manager", I get the the
error below.
Please advice it I should file a bug-report or steps to resolve the problem.
>From "Virtual Machine Manager":
Unable to complete install: 'internal error: Cannot find suitable CPU
model for given data'
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/usr/share/virt-manager/virtManager/asyncjob.py", line 91, in
cb_wrapper
callback(asyncjob, *args, **kwargs)
File "/usr/share/virt-manager/virtManager/create.py", line 1787, in
do_install
guest.start_install(meter=meter)
File "/usr/share/virt-manager/virtinst/guest.py", line 403, in
start_install
noboot)
File "/usr/share/virt-manager/virtinst/guest.py", line 467, in
_create_guest
dom = self.conn.createLinux(start_xml or final_xml, 0)
File "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/libvirt.py", line 3440, in
createLinux
if ret is None:raise libvirtError('virDomainCreateLinux() failed',
conn=self)
libvirtError: internal error: Cannot find suitable CPU model for given data
In /var/log/kern.log I observe:
Nov 11 11:28:13 revenger libvirtd[1081]: libvirt version: 1.2.9,
package: 3 (root 2014-10-14-16:53:26 bogon)
Nov 11 11:28:13 revenger libvirtd[1081]: Preferred CPU model SandyBridge
not allowed by hypervisor; closest supported model will be used
Nov 11 11:28:13 revenger libvirtd[1081]: internal error: Cannot find
suitable CPU model for given data
# cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor : 0
vendor_id : GenuineIntel
cpu family : 6
model : 42
model name : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2670QM CPU @ 2.20GHz
stepping: 7
microcode : 0x28
cpu MHz : 809.789
cache size : 6144 KB
physical id : 0
siblings: 8
core id : 0
cpu cores : 4
apicid : 0
initial apicid : 0
fpu : yes
fpu_exception : yes
cpuid level : 13
wp : yes
flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge
mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe
syscall nx rdtscp lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts nopl xtopology
nonstop_tsc aperfmperf eagerfpu pni pclmulqdq dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx
est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm pcid sse4_1 sse4_2 x2apic popcnt
tsc_deadline_timer aes xsave avx lahf_lm ida arat epb xsaveopt pln pts
dtherm tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority ept vpid
bogomips: 4385.36
clflush size: 64
cache_alignment : 64
address sizes : 36 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
power management:
--
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Re: Joey Hess is out?
On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 08:00:27AM -0600, John Hasler wrote: > Chris Bannister writes: > > I read that as 'trouble unsubscribing?' then Contact > > listmas...@lists.debian.org. > > I read it as 'technical trouble with this list'. You're right, though: > now that we have listmoms the footer needs to be redone. File a > wishlist bug. 'listmoms'? -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014092720.GC12428@tal
