Re: DOH

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 10:26:09PM +0100, Liam O'Toole wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Apr, 2020 at 23:42:48 +0300, Reco wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > 2. Having completed a DNS lookup unbeknownst to the ISP, we still have
> > > to make a connection to the resulting IP address through the ISP's
> > > gateway. The ISP can perform a reverse DNS lookup of the IP address if
> > > they are determined to snoop.
> > 
> > And that is why it's important to use DNS over TLS.
> > Unless your ISP can magically decrypt TLS on the fly, the scenario
> > you're describing is impossible. 
> 
> I think you misunderstand me. I'm talking about making a connection to
> an IP address that you have already obtained by (encrypted) DNS.

I misunderstood you indeed. While it's true that this particular threat
is something that DNS over TLS cannot guard against, I suggest you to
consider this:

1) Not every IP on the Internet has PTR record.
2) There are multiple cases of sharing the same IP between multiple
sites (including HTTPS).
3) For HTTPS (and TLS in general) there's more precise method called SNI
snooping (there's TLSv1.3 against *that*, but it's not widely adopted).

Reco

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 13:34:30 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

Hello John,

>The company behind it offers such a service.  I would be appalled if
>Debian made use of it.

TBH, if Debian wish to offload some of the 'grunt work'  I'd have no
issue with that.  Of course, the supplier's ToS would have to be
suitable.  Probably difficult to achieve.

As Sven suggested, I may have been muddling things up somewhat with
disqus.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
It belongs to them, let's give it back
Beds Are Burning - Midnight Oil


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 08:14:22AM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> I had to look up Neil McGovern to find out what "status" he has in the Debian 
> organization.  IIUC, he was the DPL (I guess I learned an acronym) in 
> something like 2015, and he may now be the executive director of GNOME.
> 
> Does he have some current status in Debian that would make his thoughts any 
> more of indicative of the intentions of Debian than anyone else?

There are some very strange assumptions being made in the above text
about the decision-making processes of Debian. I have no idea why
you would just imagine that huge sections of project infrastructure
could be torn down and replaced based on the wishes of one person,
even if you started off with having no idea about how it's actually
done. Clearly in a project the size of Debian that sort of behaviour
just wouldn't scale.

Briefly and broadly:

Debian makes decisions based on rough consensus, with some areas of
responsibility delegated to teams. When a decision has to be made
and consensus can't be found, sometimes things are referred to the
Technical Committee, or sometimes they are put to a General
Resolution (a vote).

If you're interested in watching Debian make decisions then I think
it would be best to subscribe to the debian-project mailing list. It
sometimes is not very pretty - maybe the saying about watching
sausages being made applies here.

It does not matter if someone is a highly esteemed Debian developer
and DPL emeritus; if they try to push through a change that is
controversial and ignore dissent then someone will call a GR and
then the proponent has 1 vote just like every other eligible Debian
voter.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: DOH

[Liam O'Toole]

On Tue, 14 Apr, 2020 at 18:00:41 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> Liam writes:
> > I think you misunderstand me. I'm talking about making a connection to
> > an IP address that you have already obtained by (encrypted) DNS. For
> > example, your personal bind instance tells you that www.debian.org
> > resolves to 130.89.148.77. Assuming you then connect to that IP
> > address through your ISP, there's nothing to stop them performing a
> > reverse DNS lookup on it.
> 
> What is your threat model?

I don't have one. I'm simply querying the approach advocated above by
Reco.

Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[Lee]

On 4/14/20, Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 07:03:12PM -0400, Lee wrote:
>> dnssec just adds a cryptographic signature to the data -- everything
>> is still done "in the clear" (like Debian updates.  or has buster
>> switched to using https for downloading updates?)
>
> The apt-transport-https package is available, but is not installed
> by default.  The Debian mirrors can be accessed via https, but again,
> this is not the default.  (I.e. even if you install apt-transport-https,
> you still have to edit sources.list to use it.)

*sigh* I wasn't able to get that working :(   This was right after I
installed Debian for the first time, so I was pretty much totally
clueless, but it was a compleat fail for me.

> Accessing the mirrors via https makes the packages un-cacheable, which
> makes the traffic volume significantly greater -- and the package lists
> are already signed, so there's no gain in trustworthiness of the packages.
>
> Some people may cite "privacy", as in "I don't want them to know which
> window manager I use", or something... I do not understand this
> argument, frankly.  It sounds paranoid to me.

How about people that cite "security"?  And yes, I take the simplistic
approach that encrypted=good and clear-text=bad but clear-text allows
things like
  
https://www.guardicore.com/2019/01/a-vulnerability-in-debians-apt-allows-for-easy-lateral-movement-in-data-centers

my understanding is that vuln wouldn't have existed if https had been used.

> I'd *love* to continue using http at work, but my workplace has been
> shutting down more and more plain http sites via their firewall.

Getting rid of clear-text protocols is usually at the top of network
audit checklists & with most people working from home now, it doesn't
surprise me at all that network security is being "improved".

> In the last few weeks, this includes the Debian mirrors.  So, I had to
> switch my work machines to https.  I really did not want to do that,
> because there are several of them, and now they can no longer share
> their package download bandwidth via a simple squid proxy.
>
> I'm not sure if I'll be willing to put the time into trying to come up
> with some other way to share downloads among them.

Yeah.. it's extremely frustrating when 'they' do stupid stuff 'because
security.'

But if you talk to the people in the security group about what's going
on -- if they'll talk to you at all - they've usually got at least a
semi-reasonable explanation for why.  (because the CIO said so being
the one that frustrated me the most)

Regards,
Lee

Re: DOH

[John Hasler]

Liam writes:
> I think you misunderstand me. I'm talking about making a connection to
> an IP address that you have already obtained by (encrypted) DNS. For
> example, your personal bind instance tells you that www.debian.org
> resolves to 130.89.148.77. Assuming you then connect to that IP
> address through your ISP, there's nothing to stop them performing a
> reverse DNS lookup on it.

What is your threat model?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: multiple desktop environments and performance

[Anders Andersson]

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 11:07 PM Anil F Duggirala
 wrote:
>
> I would like to know if having multiple (say 3) different desktop
> environments would have an effect in performance of my machine, as
> opposed to having a single one. If I have Gnome already installed and
> then install Lxqt and Mate. Would you expect to see any effect on the
> performance when using any one of them? (as opposed to having only one
> installed) (I guess when I say performance I mean what a newbie like me
> means, snappiness, more resources available)

The answer to your literal question is "No, I would not *expect* to
see any effect" other than of course the obvious extra storage
requirements and the extra time it takes for you having to select
which one to use at startup.

Then of course there can be the odd bug destroying your expectations...

Re: DOH

[Celejar]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 22:26:09 +0100
Liam O'Toole  wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Apr, 2020 at 23:42:48 +0300, Reco wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > 2. Having completed a DNS lookup unbeknownst to the ISP, we still have
> > > to make a connection to the resulting IP address through the ISP's
> > > gateway. The ISP can perform a reverse DNS lookup of the IP address if
> > > they are determined to snoop.
> > 
> > And that is why it's important to use DNS over TLS.
> > Unless your ISP can magically decrypt TLS on the fly, the scenario
> > you're describing is impossible. 
> 
> I think you misunderstand me. I'm talking about making a connection to
> an IP address that you have already obtained by (encrypted) DNS. For
> example, your personal bind instance tells you that www.debian.org
> resolves to 130.89.148.77. Assuming you then connect to that IP address
> through your ISP, there's nothing to stop them performing a reverse DNS
> lookup on it.

To prevent that that I suppose you'll also have to setup a VPN to your
VPS ...

Celejar

Re: DOH

[Celejar]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:13:11 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

> Celejar writes:
> > why would they be limited by whatever the OS supports? Surely their
> > malware can easily include an internal DoH implementation,
> 
> They needn't use DNS at all.  Hard coded IPs work fine for reaching
> their own servers.  They are also not limited to the usual ports and
> protocols when talking to their own servers.

Indeed. As I noted (in the other part of my previous message), I suppose
it's ultimately only a question of making things slightly more
inconvenient for the malware authors.

Celejar

Re: DOH

[Liam O'Toole]

On Tue, 14 Apr, 2020 at 23:42:48 +0300, Reco wrote:

[...]

> > 2. Having completed a DNS lookup unbeknownst to the ISP, we still have
> > to make a connection to the resulting IP address through the ISP's
> > gateway. The ISP can perform a reverse DNS lookup of the IP address if
> > they are determined to snoop.
> 
> And that is why it's important to use DNS over TLS.
> Unless your ISP can magically decrypt TLS on the fly, the scenario
> you're describing is impossible. 

I think you misunderstand me. I'm talking about making a connection to
an IP address that you have already obtained by (encrypted) DNS. For
example, your personal bind instance tells you that www.debian.org
resolves to 130.89.148.77. Assuming you then connect to that IP address
through your ISP, there's nothing to stop them performing a reverse DNS
lookup on it.

Re: HTML mail + PDF attachments

[Russell L. Harris]

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 03:19:57PM -0500, David Wright wrote:

Have you examined the timestamps in the email header of such emails in
order to see where the holdup is occurring. It may or may not be in
the last hop.


You embarrass me, David!  It did not occur to me that the header would
contain time stamps, so I did not examine them.  The messages already
are deleted.

RLH

multiple desktop environments and performance

[Anil F Duggirala]

hello,
I would like to know if having multiple (say 3) different desktop
environments would have an effect in performance of my machine, as
opposed to having a single one. If I have Gnome already installed and
then install Lxqt and Mate. Would you expect to see any effect on the
performance when using any one of them? (as opposed to having only one
installed) (I guess when I say performance I mean what a newbie like me
means, snappiness, more resources available)

thank you,

Re: DOH

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 06:25:24PM +0100, Liam O'Toole wrote:
> I have two reservations about the approach advocated by Reco above.
> Maybe I'm not seeing some part of the big picture.
> 
> 1. The risk of DNS snooping is merely shifted from the ISP to the VPS 
> provider.

Usually you have a limited number of ISPs to choose.
You have the whole Internet of VPS providers. Choose one that does not
screw with your traffic, and if you don't like that one - there's always
another.


> 2. Having completed a DNS lookup unbeknownst to the ISP, we still have
> to make a connection to the resulting IP address through the ISP's
> gateway. The ISP can perform a reverse DNS lookup of the IP address if
> they are determined to snoop.

And that is why it's important to use DNS over TLS.
Unless your ISP can magically decrypt TLS on the fly, the scenario
you're describing is impossible. 

Reco

Re: HTML mail + PDF attachments

[David Wright]

On Tue 14 Apr 2020 at 07:25:28 (+), Russell L. Harris wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 09:51:38AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > I suppose I need to reduce the limit of the number of messages
> > > downloaded in a sesson, so as to enable more frequent checks for
> > > incoming messages.
> > 
> > What benefit would this bring?
> 
> Perhaps once a month or once every other month, I am on the telephone
> with a party who is sending me an email, typically with an attachment.
> And typically I have been "on hold" on the phone for a half hour to
> reach that individual.  So the other guy says, "I just sent the
> message; tell me when you receive it."  And I must reply, "My system
> checks for new messages only every three minutes."
> 
> And then three minutes pass as we discuss the weather, and still the
> message has not arrived.  So the other guy sends the message again,
> and we wait another three minutes, and sometimes longer.  For some
> reason, messages from one of the larger domain registration outfits
> routinely take twelve hours to reach me; that was the case two or
> three times within the past few months.
> 
> So in such instances, it would be nice to check for new mail once a
> minute.  Even better would be a check made immediately upon demand; I
> know how to do that, and I have done it before.  But most of the time,
> a check every half hour would be adequate.

Have you examined the timestamps in the email header of such emails in
order to see where the holdup is occurring. It may or may not be in
the last hop.

Cheers,
David.

Re: DOH

[Liam O'Toole]

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 16:37, John Hasler  wrote:
>
> Liam writes:
> > I'm not familiar with bind. Does it work by consulting root name
> > servers directly?
>
> It starts with the root servers and builds a database in exactly the
> same way your ISP's DNS server does.  In fact, it is probably what your
> ISP uses.

I see.

I have two reservations about the approach advocated by Reco above.
Maybe I'm not seeing some part of the big picture.

1. The risk of DNS snooping is merely shifted from the ISP to the VPS provider.
2. Having completed a DNS lookup unbeknownst to the ISP, we still have
to make a connection to the resulting IP address through the ISP's
gateway. The ISP can perform a reverse DNS lookup of the IP address if
they are determined to snoop.

Of course, the above can be mitigated using tor or a VPN, but setting
up your personal bind instance doesn't achieve much on its own.

Re: Re: Re: Missing Audio Driver in Debian 10 Vmware

[Dan Ritter]

John Berden wrote: 
> Listen! That helped! Unbelievable!
> Thanks a lot!
> And why is there no default volume? This is stupid!

I'm glad it helped. Any idea which commands helped?

When a virtual machine initializes its "hardware", it doesn't
always do it the way that a real machine would. Having a default
volume of 0 might be silly, but pretty much any setting would 
annoy someone. I expect you have done the "where is this beep
coming from?" dance yourself.

-dsr-

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[John Hasler]

Brad writes:
> I /thought/ Discourse was a service similar to, say, google groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_(software)

The company behind it offers such a service.  I would be appalled if
Debian made use of it.


-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Sven Hartge]

Brad Rogers  wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:01:44 -0500 John Hasler  wrote:

>> Surely the Discourse server would be under direct Debian control.  I was

> TBH, I 'm not certain.  I /thought/ Discourse was a service similar
> to, say, google groups.  Of course, if it's software, then yes, it
> could be hosted anywhere.

I think you are thinking about "disqus" here, which is indeed a central
comment hosting service, mostly used in blogs and other online
communities.

Grüße,
Sven.

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:01:44 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

Hello John,

>Surely the Discourse server would be under direct Debian control.  I was

TBH, I 'm not certain.  I /thought/ Discourse was a service similar to,
say, google groups.  Of course, if it's software, then yes, it could be
hosted anywhere.

>not aware that Debian's servers were overworked.

I did add that the above possibility was not part of the proposition.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
We are the League, we are the anti band
We're The League - Anti-Nowhere League


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Re: Can't get my Debian laptop to use my Radeon 520 Mobile graphics card

[Martin]

> $ lsmod | grep amdgpu

amdgpu   4923392  0
gpu_sched  36864  1 amdgpu
mfd_core   16384  1 amdgpu
ttm   122880  2 amdgpu,radeon
i2c_algo_bit   16384  3 amdgpu,radeon,i915
drm_kms_helper212992  3 amdgpu,radeon,i915
drm   548864  9 gpu_sched,drm_kms_helper,amdgpu,radeon,i915,ttm

> $ find /lib/modules -name 'amdgpu*'
/lib/modules/5.4.0-4-amd64/kernel/drivers/gpu/drm/amd/amdgpu
/lib/modules/5.4.0-4-amd64/kernel/drivers/gpu/drm/amd/amdgpu/amdgpu.ko
/lib/modules/5.5.0-1-amd64/kernel/drivers/gpu/drm/amd/amdgpu
/lib/modules/5.5.0-1-amd64/kernel/drivers/gpu/drm/amd/amdgpu/amdgpu.ko

> The packages you try to install are not from Debian, maybe they are not up to 
> date.

I will keep trying, especially when I am on kernel 5.5 :)

Re: Gnome Screenshot not saving to clipboard

[Paulo Roberto]

No, I do have Wayland installed but I'm running Xorg:

$ ps ax | grep xorg
>   39677 tty7 Sl+3:13 /usr/lib/xorg/Xorg vt7 -displayfd 3 -auth
> /run/user/1000/gdm/Xauthority -background none -noreset -keeptty -verbose 3
>


No Wayland running:

$ ps ax | grep -i wayland
>   48911 pts/0S+ 0:00 grep -i wayland
>

But when I try to remove the xwayland package:

# apt purge xwayland
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree
> Reading state information... Done
> The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer
> required:
>   alacarte gir1.2-gmenu-3.0 gnome-applets gnome-applets-data gnome-panel
> gnome-panel-data gnome-session-common libcpupower2
> Use 'apt autoremove' to remove them.
> The following packages will be REMOVED:
>   gdm3* gnome-session* gnome-session-bin* gnome-session-flashback*
> gnome-shell-extensions* xwayland*
> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 6 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
> After this operation, 11.4 MB disk space will be freed.
> Do you want to continue? [Y/n]
>


 Regards



On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 5:31 PM Liam O'Toole 
wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Apr, 2020 at 16:02:07 +, Paulo Roberto wrote:
> >Hello.
> >The gnome-screenshot a few updates ago stopped working properly.
> >It's not saving to the clipboard anymore.
> >When I run:
> >
> >$ gnome-screenshot -a -c
> >
> >It activates the selection cursor, after selection it plays the sound.
> >But nothing is saved to the clipboard.
>
> [...]
>
> Are you running GNOME on Wayland, by any chance? If so, try on Xorg
> instead.
>
>

Re: Re: Re: Missing Audio Driver in Debian 10 Vmware

[John Berden]

Listen! That helped! Unbelievable!
Thanks a lot!
And why is there no default volume? This is stupid!

Re: Gnome Screenshot not saving to clipboard

[Liam O'Toole]

On Tue, 14 Apr, 2020 at 16:02:07 +, Paulo Roberto wrote:
>Hello.
>The gnome-screenshot a few updates ago stopped working properly.
>It's not saving to the clipboard anymore.
>When I run:
> 
>$ gnome-screenshot -a -c
> 
>It activates the selection cursor, after selection it plays the sound.
>But nothing is saved to the clipboard.

[...]

Are you running GNOME on Wayland, by any chance? If so, try on Xorg
instead.

Re: DOH

[John Hasler]

Celejar writes:
> why would they be limited by whatever the OS supports? Surely their
> malware can easily include an internal DoH implementation,

They needn't use DNS at all.  Hard coded IPs work fine for reaching
their own servers.  They are also not limited to the usual ports and
protocols when talking to their own servers.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[John Hasler]

Brad writes: 
> ...it wouldn't be Discourse. It'd be a discourse variant,

The patch adding the ability to disable the features in question would
be sent upstream, of course.

> It'd be a discourse variant, a fork, that somebody would have to host
> elsewhere.  Which could defeat one of the purposes(1), potentially, of
> moving certain Debian lists to Discourse.

Surely the Discourse server would be under direct Debian control.  I was
not aware that Debian's servers were overworked.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[Celejar]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 05:45:45 -0400
Lee  wrote:

> On 4/13/20, Celejar wrote:
> > On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:47:22 +0300
> > Reco  wrote:
> >
> >>Hi.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 07:46:38PM -0400, Lee wrote:
> >
> > ...
> >
> >> > I just did a quick search and couldn't find anything for smart TVs
> >> > using DOH.
> >>
> >> Probably because they aren't there yet. A typical smart TV is based on
> >> the Android, and Google haven't said their word about DOH so far.
> >
> > I suppose you mean DoH specifically, as opposed to DNS over TLS (DoT),
> > but just to clarify for the record, they have implemented the latter:
> >
> > https://blog.cloudflare.com/enable-private-dns-with-1-1-1-1-on-android-9-pie/
> > https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-enable-dns-over-tls-in-android-pie/
> >
> 
> Yes, DNS over HTTPS specifically is the concern.  DNS over TLS uses a
> specific port (that they could change, yeah, i know) that I have
> blocked, so I'm not all that concerned about DoT.

Ah, I think I understand. But if you're really worried about bad guys:

> > 3) Bad guys and gals can hijack DNS too, to the usual hilarious results.
> 
> And the bad guys and gals can use DOH to "hide" their traffic and
> circumvent things like pihole.  I just did a quick search and couldn't
> find anything for smart TVs using DOH.  Probably because my search
> skillz sux :(

why would they be limited by whatever the OS supports? Surely their
malware can easily include an internal DoH implementation, although I
suppose you'll at least be safer from malware that doesn't bother.

Celejar

Re: Re: Missing Audio Driver in Debian 10 Vmware

[Dan Ritter]

Constantine Ryzhikov wrote: 
> I'm blind, without Orca it???s hard for me to read the output. I made a
> screen, but there is no audio, or is it on top.
> 
> https://i.paste.pics/2502b2f2c2644bb7e19dbc9d7e2e7a8a.png

I apologize for my assumption.

The lspci snipped you showed did have snd_ens1371 enabled,
so it is plausible that this is just a mixer problem.

alsa and pulse both have command-line tools to adjust mixing.

For alsa, try:

amixer scontrols

to get the available controls.

Some combination of the following might work:

amixer -c 0 set Master 100%
amixer -c 0 set PCM 100%
amixer -c 0 set Headphone 100%
amixer -c 0 set Beep 0%


As painful as alsa's tools are, pulseaudio's tools are worse.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PulseAudio/Examples

pactl list cards
pactl set-sink-volume 0 100%

might work.

-dsr-

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:25:59 -0400
Carl Fink  wrote:

Hello Carl,

>Actually, since Discourse is Open Source, yes, it can.
>Not necessarily easily, but it can.

Point taken, *but*.

...it wouldn't be Discourse

It'd be a discourse variant, a fork, that somebody would have to host
elsewhere.  Which could defeat one of the purposes(1), potentially, of
moving certain Debian lists to Discourse.

(1)  Assuming, that is, one of the purposes is to lighten the load on
Debian's already overworked servers.  Nothing I've read indicates that
is part of the aim, though.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
Chose to play the fool in a six piece band
What A Waste - Ian Dury And The Blockheads


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Gnome Screenshot not saving to clipboard

[Paulo Roberto]

Hello.

The gnome-screenshot a few updates ago stopped working properly.
It's not saving to the clipboard anymore.

When I run:

$ gnome-screenshot -a -c
>

It activates the selection cursor, after selection it plays the sound. But
nothing is saved to the clipboard.

If I try to save it to a file, it works perfectly:

$ gnome-screenshot -a -f /tmp/screenshot.png
>

The gnome shortcut works, that is, it calls the gnome-screenshot, but the
problem is the same, it does not save to the clipboard.

The problem is the same even if I do not use the area selection feature:

$ gnome-screenshot -c
>

I'm running Debian Testing and the gnome-session and gnome-screenshot
versions are:

>
> gnome-session 3.36.0-2
>all  GNOME Session Manager - GNOME 3 session
> gnome-screenshot3.36.0-2
>  amd64screenshot application for GNOME
>

I did an experiment downgrading the version of gnome screenshot to the
version 3.30.0-2 but the problem persisted:

> gnome-screenshot  3.30.0-2
>amd64screenshot application for GNOME
>


I'd like some help on how to debug this problem and fix it.

Thanks in advance.

Kind regards.

Paulo

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 14 apr 20, 10:35:57, John Hasler wrote:
> Dan Ritter writes:
> >There's this general problem: when you place incentives, even
> > {etc.}
> 
> Brad writes:
> > Despite my relative maturity (read: I'm old), I've fallen prey to this
> > myself, on occasion.
> 
> Likewise.

Guilty :)

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!aboutgroup/linux.debian.user

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[John Hasler]

Dan Ritter writes:
>There's this general problem: when you place incentives, even
> {etc.}

Brad writes:
> Despite my relative maturity (read: I'm old), I've fallen prey to this
> myself, on occasion.

Likewise.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: DOH

[John Hasler]

Lee wrote:
> Maybe I'm being naive, but I'm taking the clause "except as may be
> required by law" to mean they can't just give the data to LE; there
> has to be some kind of court order compelling them to hand it over.

Reco writes:
> Probably. But I fail to see how a court order will prevent such data
> leak in the described scenario.

The point is that if there is a court order then the data *will* be
handed over regardless of what the contract says.  "But I promised this
guy that I'd wouldn't reveal his secrets to the government" carries no
weight in court.

The clause makes it clear that data will be handed over if and only if
there is a court order.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Carl Fink]

On 4/14/20 10:28 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 06:54:19 -0700
Peter Ehlert  wrote:

Hello Peter,


can that "feature" be removed?

Only by lobotomising/killing the person.

Oh, you mean at discourse?   :-)

Apparently not.  :-(


Actually, since Discourse is Open Source, yes, it can.

Not necessarily easily, but it can.

--
Carl Fink   nitpick...@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com.  Reviews!  Observations!

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 14 apr 20, 09:49:16, Curt wrote:
> On 2020-04-14, Andrei POPESCU  wrote:
>
> > To me "may or may not be a replacemnt" and "would be better of" are
> > very far away from "I propose to replace X with Y".
> 
> It is also rather distant from "Nobody is proposing replacing
> debian-user with Discourse," so I guess we're kind of even, though I
> think my interpretation is closer to the truth than your flat and
> unequivocal dismissal.

Let's agree to disagree on this, see below on why.

> I'm sorry, but it does follow from Neil's
> comments that replacing debian-user by Discourse is under consideration
> (as he *specified* debian-user as a *particular list* he believes would
> benefit from the shift).

Debian's lists are under the responsibility of the Listmaster Team[1] 
and so far they haven't expressed any opinion on this. Even if some 
other Debian Member would explicitly advance a proposal to change 
something regarding Debian's lists they are in charge to approve and 
implement (and no, they can't be forced to do this, because they are 
volunteers).

What *may* happen:

If (and only if) Discourse is popular enough it could be promoted to an 
official channel (moved from debian.net to debian.org), most likely 
operated by a completely different team than the Listmasters.

As we have seen with shapado/ask.debian.net this might *never* happen.

If (and only if) *some* mailing list is not useful anymore it could be 
disabled by the Listmaster Team (regardless of the popularity of some 
other official channel).

With 3000+ subscribers I don't see this happening for debian-user 
anytime soon. If it's going to see any significant decline in use it 
will probably be correlated to general decline in e-mail use.

I'm not aware of any list on lists.debian.org with as many subscribers 
as debian-user, only debian-devel comes close with 2500+ subscribers.

Do note that some lists on lists.debian.org have less than 100 
subscribers.

[1] I was under the impression they are delegated as per Debian's 
Constitution, though I can't find any proof of that now.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: Re: Missing Audio Driver in Debian 10 Vmware

[Constantine Ryzhikov]

Installed it already. Does not help.

Re: Re: Missing Audio Driver in Debian 10 Vmware

[Constantine Ryzhikov]

Installed it already. doesn't help.

Re: Re: Missing Audio Driver in Debian 10 Vmware

[John Berden]

I'm blind, without Orca it’s hard for me to read the output. I made a 
screen, but there is no audio, or is it on top.


https://i.paste.pics/2502b2f2c2644bb7e19dbc9d7e2e7a8a.png

Re: Re: Missing Audio Driver in Debian 10 Vmware

[Constantine Ryzhikov]

I'm blind, without Orca it’s hard for me to read the output. I made a 
screen, but there is no audio, or is it on top.


https://i.paste.pics/2502b2f2c2644bb7e19dbc9d7e2e7a8a.png

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 06:54:19 -0700
Peter Ehlert  wrote:

Hello Peter,

>can that "feature" be removed?

Only by lobotomising/killing the person.

Oh, you mean at discourse?   :-)

Apparently not.  :-(

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
It's becoming an obsession
Teenage Depression - Eddie & The Hot Rods


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:38:55 -0400
Dan Ritter  wrote:

Hello Dan,

>There's this general problem: when you place incentives, even
{etc.}

Despite my relative maturity (read: I'm old), I've fallen prey to this
myself, on occasion.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
I'm doubling the rent 'coz the building's condemned
Let's Lynch The Landlord - Dead Kennedys


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Re: Re: Missing Audio Driver in Debian 10 Vmware

[John Berden]

I'm blind, without Orca it’s hard for me to read the output. I made a 
screen, but there is no audio, or is it on top.


https://i.paste.pics/2502b2f2c2644bb7e19dbc9d7e2e7a8a.png

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Glenn Holmer]

On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 3:45 AM Reco  wrote:

> [1] came to my attention today. To quote relevant parts:
>
> So, thoughts, options?
>
> [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2020/04/msg00074.html
>

-1 to newfangled fol-de-rol

-- 
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."

Re: Can I install Debian on Raspberry Pi?

[deloptes]

Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote:

> gmane.linux.debian.user
> Good afternoon from Singapore,
> 
> Can I install Debian on Raspberry Pi? When I am downloading Debian ISOs,
> do I choose the arm64 architecture?
> 
> I am looking forward to hearing from you soon.
> 
> Thank you.

I booted in raspbian and debootstrapped debian armhf.
I did copy the boot and kernel from raspbian and it works fine.

I was going to do the same for amd64, but did not have the time. It seems
then you need the kernel8

regards

Re: Missing Audio Driver in Debian 10 Vmware

[deloptes]

John Berden wrote:

> Hello.
> I installed Debian 10 on Vmware 15.
> And I don't have an audio driver!
> I hear system beeps only.
> How can i fix this?
> Thanks in advance!

First it needs to be enabled in the VM configuration and second I think you
need to install extention (in the debian VM). I lost track where this was
to be downloaded. On windows I recall it was downloaded and shows up as
CD-disk and installs the VM Tools. I think you have to look for the VM
Tools if available.

Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 14 apr 20, 07:32:58, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 07:03:12PM -0400, Lee wrote:
> > dnssec just adds a cryptographic signature to the data -- everything
> > is still done "in the clear" (like Debian updates.  or has buster
> > switched to using https for downloading updates?)
> 
> The apt-transport-https package is available, but is not installed
> by default.

Not required anymore (at least in buster).

$ apt show apt-transport-https
Package: apt-transport-https
Version: 1.8.2
[...]
Description: transitional package for https support
 This is a dummy transitional package - https support has been moved into
 the apt package in 1.5. It can be safely removed.


> The Debian mirrors can be accessed via https, but again,
> this is not the default.  (I.e. even if you install apt-transport-https,
> you still have to edit sources.list to use it.)

This is still applicable.

> Accessing the mirrors via https makes the packages un-cacheable, which
> makes the traffic volume significantly greater -- and the package lists
> are already signed, so there's no gain in trustworthiness of the packages.
> 
> Some people may cite "privacy", as in "I don't want them to know which
> window manager I use", or something... I do not understand this
> argument, frankly.  It sounds paranoid to me.

Some people might not want to advertise to the world they are using 
packages like weboob (only in stretch) :)

More seriously, there is the argument about using encryption even if not 
really needed in order to "hide" the cases where it is.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Dan Purgert]

On Apr 14, 2020, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:21:14 -0400
> Dan Purgert  wrote:
> 
> Hello Dan,
> 
> >Mine actually says "tested only in Lynx, if it doesn't look right in
> >your preferred CLI browser, let me know" :)
> 
> Which is fine.  It differs from "Works best in" because you state
> you're prepared to do things to improve your site for the general good.
> The "works best in..." brigade are saying "We won't change anything,
> even if it is broken".

Yep, I can understand the difference of thinking there.  I used to be
part of the "works best in" brigade; but I was also still in university
(albeit, I always had "works best in FF").  I've since learned a thing
or two (whether or not it was the CORRECT thing or two has yet to be
seen :) ).


-- 
|_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1  E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
|O|O|O| Former PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281


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Re: Can I install Debian on Raspberry Pi?

[Vincent Lammens]

Op 2020-04-14 om 13:11 schreef Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming:
> I will check out Raspbian. Thank you!
> 
> On 2020-04-14 17:52, Rick Thomas wrote:
>> Pure Debian, as noted, does not have the kernel tweaks to take full
>> advantage of the R...pi4B hardware.  However, I have found that
>> Raspbian is "close enough" to pure Debian that I can easily exercise
>> all by Debian skills on it with almost no surprises.   It's a nice
>> little box!
>>
>> Hope that helps!
>> Rick
> 
Something that does work, is using raspbian, and then using a debian
docker container. Not exactly where docker is made for, but it does work
for me.

-- 
Regards

Vincent Lammens
http://vincentlammens.net



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No Sound

[Thomas George]

systemctl status sound-card1.device

    sound-card1.device - /sound/card1

        Loaded: Loaded

        Active: inactive (dead)

System is Buster Debian 4.19.98-1

Upon reboot to Strectch Debian 4.9.38-2 sound works fine. Where should I 
look to correct the problem in Buster?

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Peter Ehlert]

On 4/14/20 6:38 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:

Brad Rogers wrote:

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:58:12 - (UTC)
Curt  wrote:


My current Trust Level: Totally Untrustworthy.

Until you've posted, and your initial post(s) have been proved to be
acceptable (IOW, not offensive, off topic, spam.), yep.


Some Discourse "badges":

All very juvenile, I agree.  One doesn't have to 'play' that game,
though.

There's this general problem: when you place incentives, even
ridiculously meaningless ones, you get behavior that maximizes
those incentives. (Not everybody, not all the time.)

can that "feature" be removed?


So if Discourse badges and points and reputation scores become
an incentive -- imaginary internet points -- people will do the
things that get them the points.

-dsr-

Re: Missing Audio Driver in Debian 10 Vmware

[Dan Ritter]

John Berden wrote: 
> Hello.
> I installed Debian 10 on Vmware 15.
> And I don't have an audio driver!
> I hear system beeps only.
> How can i fix this?

It's pretty likely that Debian would use your virtualized audio
hardware if it was available, so it's probably VMWare's fault.

Does lspci -vv  show you any audio hardware?

If not, it's definitely VMWare's fault. Complain to them.

If it does show you audio hardware, let us know what it is.

-dsr-

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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Dan Ritter]

Brad Rogers wrote: 
> On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:58:12 - (UTC)
> Curt  wrote:
> 
> >My current Trust Level: Totally Untrustworthy.
> 
> Until you've posted, and your initial post(s) have been proved to be
> acceptable (IOW, not offensive, off topic, spam.), yep.
> 
> >Some Discourse "badges":
> 
> All very juvenile, I agree.  One doesn't have to 'play' that game,
> though.

There's this general problem: when you place incentives, even
ridiculously meaningless ones, you get behavior that maximizes
those incentives. (Not everybody, not all the time.)

So if Discourse badges and points and reputation scores become
an incentive -- imaginary internet points -- people will do the
things that get them the points.

-dsr-

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 08:14:22AM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 14, 2020 05:56:39 AM Dan Purgert wrote:
> > On Apr 14, 2020, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > On Ma, 14 apr 20, 08:19:50, Curt wrote:
> > > > On 2020-04-14, Andrei POPESCU  wrote:
> > > > > It doesn't matter much as nobody is proposing to replace debian-user
> > > > > with Discourse.
> > > > 
> > > > Nobody but Neil McGovern himself.
> 
> Does he have some current status in Debian that would make his thoughts any 
> more of indicative of the intentions of Debian than anyone else?

A Debian Developer, unless I misunderstood that:

https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/e1jneel-0007cd...@mail.einval.com

Current DPL is Sam Hartman, and an election process for the next DPL is
going on until Apr 18th.

Reco

Missing Audio Driver in Debian 10 Vmware

[John Berden]

Hello.
I installed Debian 10 on Vmware 15.
And I don't have an audio driver!
I hear system beeps only.
How can i fix this?
Thanks in advance!

Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[Reco]

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 07:06:05AM -0400, Lee wrote:
> >> Right.  The ISP can't see what names the user is looking up but
> >> Cloudflare sees every single one.  On the other hand, take a look at
> >>   https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/DOH-resolver-policy
> >
> > An interesting declaration. For instance:
> >
> > 1. The resolver may retain user data (including identifiable data...)
> > but should do so only for the purpose of operating the service and
> > must not retain that data for longer than 24 hours.
> > ...
> > 2. Transparency Report. There must be a transparency report published at
> > least yearly that documents the policy for how the party operating the
> > resolver will handle law enforcement requests for user data and that
> > documents the types and number of requests received and answered, except
> > to the extent such disclosure is prohibited by law.
> >
> > Thus:
> >
> > a) Cloudflare is allowed to store whatever they want for 24 hours.
> > b) They aren't forbidden to give that data to the law enforcement, which
> > is not binded by that Mozilla’s Trusted Recursive Resolver program.
> 
> Maybe I'm being naive, but I'm taking the clause "except as may be
> required by law" to mean they can't just give the data to LE; there
> has to be some kind of court order compelling them to hand it over.

Probably. But I fail to see how a court order will prevent such data
leak in the described scenario.


> > c) Law enforcement entity hires some independent contractor to help them
> > store this data.
> > d) Next thing you know, everyone's DNS history is world-accessible via
> > some unprotected ElasticSearch instance on AWS.
> > e) And the best thing here is - Mozilla legally allowed it to happen.
> 
> Is there some other DNS provider that has a  published privacy policy?
>  That's anywhere near as good as CloudFlare's?

To be frank, then you have your own DNS, there's little need to be
interested in others' privacy policies.


> To be clear - I'm not saying you should trust CloudFlare.  It's just
> that I don't see a whole lot of options & quite possibly CloudFlare is
> more trustworthy than your USA ISP.

I disagree. Cloudflare serves 10-20% sites on the Internet world-wide
already. There's no need to trust them to do DNS resolution on the top
of it.


> Cool - so you would know the answer to this question: Is the chromium
> you build from source code **totally** built from source code you have
> with no binaries, libraries, DLLs, or anything else like that
> included?

I do it the same way as Debian does, from the same sources (but with the
custom patches on top on them).
So, chromium version 81.0.4044.92 contains:

1) 5412 assorted python scripts, which are executed during the build
process (maybe not all of them).
2) 16299 javascript files, but those are definitely not required by the
build process.

Since I do it for the Linux only, I could not care less if the source
tree contains EXEs, DLLs or other Windoze artifacts.
I'm definitely sure that there are no ELF executables there or pre-built
.so and .a files.
I should note, however, that Debian's chromium source is sanitized, and
certain parts of the source tree are deliberately removed.


> In other words, how trustworthy is your 'built from source code'
> chromium?  Have you done any testing to see if it "phones home"?

YES! In fact, I do it after every update (once a month on average), and
check periodically just for the fun of it.
The answer is - the only connections it does without my intervention are
"trial experiment downloads" (it's clients[0-9].google.com), so I'm
looking for a patch to disable *that* too (currently I'm merely blocking
it).

Check out [1] if you're interested, that patchset rocks. Combining it
with Debian chromium patches is an interesting exercise though.


> >> > As far as the "last mile" is concerned - maybe.
> >>
> >> How about as far as the "end user" is concerned? (which is what I
> >> thought we were talking about -- clueless end-users having doh forced
> >> on them)
> >
> > It's akin to the tempered glass. I.e. it's less likely to break than a
> > normal glass, but it's still transparent. It's also akin to building a
> > castle on a sand.
> >
> > I.e. if the user does not care about security it may improve overall
> > situation somewhat, but the cost of this improvement is privacy.
> 
> Do you live in the EU?

I won't answer that. Privacy.


> >> >> How many people use a dnssec validating resolver?
> >> >
> >> > See above. Besides, DNSSEC is for integrity of zones, not privacy.
> >> > You need DNS-over-TLS if you need last one.
> >>
> >> "integrity of zones" is part of "security" - yes?
> >
> > Yes. My point is that it's only a part of the security. A needed part,
> > but a part nevertheless.
> >
> >
> >> DoT or DoH - either one gets you privacy from your ISP
> >> DoT is easy to block, DoH is harder to block, so somewhat censorship
> >> resistant?

If it bothers you (it does bother me), you probably should not ta

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:21:14 -0400
Dan Purgert  wrote:

Hello Dan,

>Mine actually says "tested only in Lynx, if it doesn't look right in
>your preferred CLI browser, let me know" :)

Which is fine.  It differs from "Works best in" because you state
you're prepared to do things to improve your site for the general good.
The "works best in..." brigade are saying "We won't change anything,
even if it is broken".

It's also a far cry from being redirected, or shown a page telling me to
"F*&@ Off!" because I use a browser the site owner dislikes.  Yes, I've
seen that in the past, too.   :-(

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
Who's a sucker now?
Edward The Bear - The Damned


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Dan Purgert]

On Apr 14, 2020, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 05:52:48 -0400
> Dan Purgert  wrote:
> 
> Hello Dan,
> 
> >"Works best with Internet Explorer" :D
> 
> That sort of statement on a web site is coming back.   :-(

Mine actually says "tested only in Lynx, if it doesn't look right in
your preferred CLI browser, let me know" :)

But then again, I'm writing static html ... so it should work entirely
cleanly.

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Re: Moderation (not!) [was: Debian is testing Discourse]

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:23:36 +0300
Andrei POPESCU  wrote:

Hello Andrei,

>I'm curious about that as well, if anyone is aware of a deployment.

https://www.sympa.org/users/custom has a list.

Sympa admits to the likelihood that the list may be out of date.
Additionally, many of the MLs of the organisations listed would appear
to be for their internal use, rather than open to the general public.
This based on a rather cursory look.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
There's no point in asking you'll get no reply
Pretty Vacant - Sex Pistols


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[rhkramer]

On Tuesday, April 14, 2020 05:56:39 AM Dan Purgert wrote:
> On Apr 14, 2020, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > On Ma, 14 apr 20, 08:19:50, Curt wrote:
> > > On 2020-04-14, Andrei POPESCU  wrote:
> > > > It doesn't matter much as nobody is proposing to replace debian-user
> > > > with Discourse.
> > > 
> > > Nobody but Neil McGovern himself.

I had to look up Neil McGovern to find out what "status" he has in the Debian 
organization.  IIUC, he was the DPL (I guess I learned an acronym) in 
something like 2015, and he may now be the executive director of GNOME.

Does he have some current status in Debian that would make his thoughts any 
more of indicative of the intentions of Debian than anyone else?

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 13:24:14 +0200
Sven Hartge  wrote:

Hello Sven,

>> On 2020-04-13, Brad Rogers  wrote:  
>>> There have, in the past existed gateways between mailing lists and
>>> usenet newsgroups.  They worked well, for the most part.  
>> I'm using one at this very moment.  
>Same here, reading via tin in my local INN2 pulled via Gmane.

Okay, I'll change my statement;

There exist gateways between mailing lists and usenet newsgroups.  They
work well, for the most part.

;-D

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
Watching the people get lairy
I Predict A Riot - Kaiser Chiefs


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:46:39 +0300
Andrei POPESCU  wrote:

Hello Andrei,

>To me "may or may not be a replacemnt" and "would be better of" are
>very far away from "I propose to replace X with Y"

The two former are clearly a precursor to the latter.  Obviously,
viability has to be assessed, hence the hedging - 'may or may not'.

Of course, as things stand, the third (I propose, etc.) is not
inevitable.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
He signed up for just three years, it seemed a small amount
Tin Soldiers - Stiff Little Fingers


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 05:52:48 -0400
Dan Purgert  wrote:

Hello Dan,

>"Works best with Internet Explorer" :D

That sort of statement on a web site is coming back.   :-(

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
Words as weapons, sharper than knives
Devil Inside - INXS


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:58:12 - (UTC)
Curt  wrote:

Hello Curt,

>Color me stupid but I mosied over to the test site and couldn't figure
>out how to post. Maybe you gotta sign up (that must be it). 

It is just that.

>My current Trust Level: Totally Untrustworthy.

Until you've posted, and your initial post(s) have been proved to be
acceptable (IOW, not offensive, off topic, spam.), yep.

>Some Discourse "badges":

All very juvenile, I agree.  One doesn't have to 'play' that game,
though.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
He's got all the answers
Ask Mr Waverley - The Cortinas


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:57:50 - (UTC)
Curt  wrote:

Hello Curt,

>As Brian P. has already sort of implied, some might find it hard to
>believe in the total sincerity of a change to Discourse for debian-user
>(a community of users for users by users) in the name of inclusiveness

Well, quite.  If a move to Discourse were made, I'd not follow, that's
for sure.

Certainly, discourse has advantages - *for the moderators*.  For every
one else - not so much.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
I hit the ground, boy have I arrived!
The History Of The World (Part 1) - The Damned


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Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 01:48:24PM +0200, n...@dismail.de wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 07:06:05 -0400, Lee wrote:
> > Is there some other DNS provider that has a  published privacy policy?
> >  That's anywhere near as good as CloudFlare's?
> > 
> > To be clear - I'm not saying you should trust CloudFlare.  It's just
> > that I don't see a whole lot of options & quite possibly CloudFlare is
> > more trustworthy than your USA ISP.
> 
> Some non-profit organisations here operate public non-logging[1] DNS servers.
> They all support DoT, only some support DoH.
> But none of them would have enough resources to serve all Firefox users in 
> the 
> world though.

I really don't understand the appeal of this approach on a Linux users'
mailing list.  The amount of technical knowledge and effort that it takes
to run your own caching resolver and point resolv.conf to 127.0.0.1 is
only *slightly* greater than the amount of technical knowledge and effort
that it takes to point resolv.conf to "some global caching resolver that
is like 8.8.8.8 but theoretically more trustworthy, maybe".

In both cases, the major issue is getting isc-dhcp-client and network-manager
and other such things to leave your resolv.conf the hell alone after
you edit it.  See  for help with
that.

Installing a caching resolver is pretty simple.  Editing /etc/resolv.conf
is likewise pretty simple, or *should* be for anyone on this mailing list.

Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[nito]

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 07:06:05 -0400, Lee wrote:
> Is there some other DNS provider that has a  published privacy policy?
>  That's anywhere near as good as CloudFlare's?
> 
> To be clear - I'm not saying you should trust CloudFlare.  It's just
> that I don't see a whole lot of options & quite possibly CloudFlare is
> more trustworthy than your USA ISP.

Some non-profit organisations here operate public non-logging[1] DNS servers.
They all support DoT, only some support DoH.
But none of them would have enough resources to serve all Firefox users in the 
world though.

--- Nito

[1]: Only malformed queries are logged for diagnosis.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brian]

On Tue 14 Apr 2020 at 10:19:13 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> On Lu, 13 apr 20, 20:30:45, Brian wrote:
> 
> > A similar, less constrictive, idea has been tried before
> > 
> >   http://shapado.debian.net/
> > 
> > and has failed miserably.
> 
> Sadly this yet another instance where I end up finding better answers 
> about Debian on non-Debian platforms (like StackExchange), the other one 
> being the Arch's wiki (significantly better than Debian's).
> 
> For some reasons (missing SEO?) I don't see many hits from 
> lists.debian.org in DuckDuckGo or Google.

Fortunately, I could remember fragments of the original post on
debian -project, so my search didn't take too long.

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2010/09/msg00123.html

The shapado.debian.net domain eventually became ask.debian.net.
See

 https://www.debian.org/News/weekly/2010/14/#ask

  > With the help of the Shapado Project, members of the
  > Debian project started a new user oriented service at
  > ask.debian.net. It lets users ask specific questions
  > and find answers, while also providing rating systems
  > and badges for users. It allows Debian Developers and
  > other contributors to easily stay in touch with the
  > community.

My recollection is that, after an initial flurry of activity by
DDs, the response to questions was left in the hands of a single
person.

-- 
Brian.

Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 07:03:12PM -0400, Lee wrote:
> dnssec just adds a cryptographic signature to the data -- everything
> is still done "in the clear" (like Debian updates.  or has buster
> switched to using https for downloading updates?)

The apt-transport-https package is available, but is not installed
by default.  The Debian mirrors can be accessed via https, but again,
this is not the default.  (I.e. even if you install apt-transport-https,
you still have to edit sources.list to use it.)

Accessing the mirrors via https makes the packages un-cacheable, which
makes the traffic volume significantly greater -- and the package lists
are already signed, so there's no gain in trustworthiness of the packages.

Some people may cite "privacy", as in "I don't want them to know which
window manager I use", or something... I do not understand this
argument, frankly.  It sounds paranoid to me.

I'd *love* to continue using http at work, but my workplace has been
shutting down more and more plain http sites via their firewall.
In the last few weeks, this includes the Debian mirrors.  So, I had to
switch my work machines to https.  I really did not want to do that,
because there are several of them, and now they can no longer share
their package download bandwidth via a simple squid proxy.

I'm not sure if I'll be willing to put the time into trying to come up
with some other way to share downloads among them.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Sven Hartge]

Curt  wrote:
> On 2020-04-13, Brad Rogers  wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 18:33:13 - (UTC) Curt  wrote:

>>> There could be a channel to connect the pools
>>
>> There have, in the past existed gateways between mailing lists and usenet
>> newsgroups.  They worked well, for the most part.

> I'm using one at this very moment.

Same here, reading via tin in my local INN2 pulled via Gmane.

But gatewaying between Mail and Usenet was always easier, because both
use the same base RfC to describe the message format and the (initial)
social way of replying (shunning top-quotes, etc.) between Mail and
Usenet was largely the same.

On the other side, gatewaying between different platforms, for example a
Web forum that does not support threading and a mailinglist is much much
harder to do right, let alone the social differences between most forums
and mailinglist.

S!

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Sven Hartge]

Andrei POPESCU  wrote:
> On Lu, 13 apr 20, 22:38:11, Sven Hartge wrote:
 
>> Same example from my circle of friends and aquaintances:
>> 
>>  - some use WhatsApp
>>  - some use Facebook
>>  - some use Mail (like me)

> https://xkcd.com/1782/

Yes.

S!

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: Can I install Debian on Raspberry Pi?

[Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming]

I will check out Raspbian. Thank you!

On 2020-04-14 17:52, Rick Thomas wrote:

Pure Debian, as noted, does not have the kernel tweaks to take full
advantage of the R...pi4B hardware.  However, I have found that
Raspbian is "close enough" to pure Debian that I can easily exercise
all by Debian skills on it with almost no surprises.   It's a nice
little box!

Hope that helps!
Rick


--
-BEGIN EMAIL SIGNATURE-

The Gospel for all Targeted Individuals (TIs):

[The New York Times] Microwave Weapons Are Prime Suspect in Ills of
U.S. Embassy Workers

Link: 
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba-microwave.html




Singaporean Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming's Academic
Qualifications as at 14 Feb 2019 and refugee seeking attempts at the 
United Nations Refugee Agency Bangkok (21 Mar 2017), in Taiwan (5 Aug 
2019) and Australia (25 Dec 2019 to 9 Jan 2020):


[1] https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com/

[2] https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.sg/

[3] https://www.scribd.com/user/270125049/Teo-En-Ming

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Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[Lee]

On 4/14/20, Reco wrote:
>   Hi.

Hi

> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 06:42:10PM -0400, Lee wrote:
>> On 4/13/20, Reco  wrote:
>> > On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 07:46:38PM -0400, Lee wrote:
>> >> > The questionable idea behind DOH is that the browser makers do not
>> >> > trust
>> >> > your local resolver.
>> >>
>> >> Mozilla claims it's a privacy issue:
>> >> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-dns-over-https
>> >
>> > It's a privacy issue along with the other things.
>> > With the default settings the Firefox user is handing all DNS
>> > resolution
>> > to Cloudflare. Not an equivalent to complete browsing history, but
>> > close
>> > enough.
>>
>> Right.  The ISP can't see what names the user is looking up but
>> Cloudflare sees every single one.  On the other hand, take a look at
>>   https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/DOH-resolver-policy
>
> An interesting declaration. For instance:
>
> 1. The resolver may retain user data (including identifiable data...)
> but should do so only for the purpose of operating the service and
> must not retain that data for longer than 24 hours.
> ...
> 2. Transparency Report. There must be a transparency report published at
> least yearly that documents the policy for how the party operating the
> resolver will handle law enforcement requests for user data and that
> documents the types and number of requests received and answered, except
> to the extent such disclosure is prohibited by law.
>
>
> Thus:
>
> a) Cloudflare is allowed to store whatever they want for 24 hours.
> b) They aren't forbidden to give that data to the law enforcement, which
> is not binded by that Mozilla’s Trusted Recursive Resolver program.

Maybe I'm being naive, but I'm taking the clause "except as may be
required by law" to mean they can't just give the data to LE; there
has to be some kind of court order compelling them to hand it over.

> c) Law enforcement entity hires some independent contractor to help them
> store this data.
> d) Next thing you know, everyone's DNS history is world-accessible via
> some unprotected ElasticSearch instance on AWS.
> e) And the best thing here is - Mozilla legally allowed it to happen.

Is there some other DNS provider that has a  published privacy policy?
 That's anywhere near as good as CloudFlare's?

To be clear - I'm not saying you should trust CloudFlare.  It's just
that I don't see a whole lot of options & quite possibly CloudFlare is
more trustworthy than your USA ISP.

>> >> If firefox wasn't a viable alternative to chrome, what are the chances
>> >> that change would have been implemented?
>> >
>> > It is implemented already, it's just there are alternatives to
>> > declarativeNetRequest that are working - so far.
>>
>> Ahh.  I thought Google backed down on the change..
>
> I happen to build chromium from the source from time to time. Recent
> versions (>=80) require re2 regex library just for declarativeNetRequest
> alone.

Cool - so you would know the answer to this question: Is the chromium
you build from source code **totally** built from source code you have
with no binaries, libraries, DLLs, or anything else like that
included?

In other words, how trustworthy is your 'built from source code'
chromium?  Have you done any testing to see if it "phones home"?

>> >> > With the advent of HTTPS all this may be seen as moot points (if
>> >> > you're
>> >> > redirected elsewhere the certificate validation should fail), but
>> >> > nevertheless DOH is forced upon the collective throat of Firefox
>> >> > users
>> >> > as we speak (and Chrome users are likely to follow them Soon™).
>> >> > Currently a Firefox user is supposed to trust Cloudflare to do DNS
>> >> > queries for them, and HTTPS is used for this purpose because
>> >> > Security™.
>> >>
>> >> For some values of "security", DOH _is_ more secure.
>> >
>> > As far as the "last mile" is concerned - maybe.
>>
>> How about as far as the "end user" is concerned? (which is what I
>> thought we were talking about -- clueless end-users having doh forced
>> on them)
>
> It's akin to the tempered glass. I.e. it's less likely to break than a
> normal glass, but it's still transparent. It's also akin to building a
> castle on a sand.
>
> I.e. if the user does not care about security it may improve overall
> situation somewhat, but the cost of this improvement is privacy.

Do you live in the EU?

Not everyone has the ability or inclination to do things like run
their own resolver or build chromium from source.  It's possible FF
enabling DOH is an improvement for most of their users.

>> >> How many people use a dnssec validating resolver?
>> >
>> > See above. Besides, DNSSEC is for integrity of zones, not privacy.
>> > You need DNS-over-TLS if you need last one.
>>
>> "integrity of zones" is part of "security" - yes?
>
> Yes. My point is that it's only a part of the security. A needed part,
> but a part nevertheless.
>
>
>> DoT or DoH - either one gets you privacy from your ISP
>> DoT is easy to block, Do

Re: Can I install Debian on Raspberry Pi?

[Rick Thomas]

Pure Debian, as noted, does not have the kernel tweaks to take full advantage 
of the R...pi4B hardware.  However, I have found that Raspbian is "close 
enough" to pure Debian that I can easily exercise all by Debian skills on it 
with almost no surprises.   It's a nice little box!

Hope that helps!
Rick 

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Dan Purgert]

On Apr 14, 2020, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Ma, 14 apr 20, 08:19:50, Curt wrote:
> > On 2020-04-14, Andrei POPESCU  wrote:
> > >
> > > It doesn't matter much as nobody is proposing to replace debian-user
> > > with Discourse.
> > 
> > Nobody but Neil McGovern himself.
> > 
> > https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2020/04/msg00074.html
> >  
> >  What about the mailing lists?
> >This may or may not be a replacement for any particular list.
> >  
> >  Be specific!
> >Ok... I think debian-user, debian-vote and possibly debian-project
> >would be better off in Discourse.
> > 
> > Obviously, as usual, confusion reigns supreme.
> 
> To me "may or may not be a replacemnt" and "would be better of" are very 
> far away from "I propose to replace X with Y".

It's language that gives the other party room to think that it was their
idea to replace X with Y the whole time.  Have to use it every day at
work with the suits.


-- 
|_|O|_| 
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Dan Purgert]

On Apr 13, 2020, John Hasler wrote:
> Kenneth Parker writes:
> > On a Laptop of mine, I have an old version of Firefox, with the
> > "NoScript" add-on.  I wonder how it would work there.
> 
> Works ok for a casual test.  I have no acount so I have no idea how it
> would work for posting, though.
> 
> "Works best with Javascript" could turn into "Requires Javascript"
> from one release to the next, though.

"Works best with Internet Explorer" :D

-- 
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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Curt]

On 2020-04-14, Andrei POPESCU  wrote:
>
>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2020/04/msg00074.html

>>  What about the mailing lists?
>>This may or may not be a replacement for any particular list.

>>  Be specific!
>>Ok... I think debian-user, debian-vote and possibly debian-project
>>would be better off in Discourse.

>> Obviously, as usual, confusion reigns supreme.
>
> To me "may or may not be a replacemnt" and "would be better of" are
> very far away from "I propose to replace X with Y".

It is also rather distant from "Nobody is proposing replacing
debian-user with Discourse," so I guess we're kind of even, though I
think my interpretation is closer to the truth than your flat and
unequivocal dismissal. I'm sorry, but it does follow from Neil's
comments that replacing debian-user by Discourse is under consideration
(as he *specified* debian-user as a *particular list* he believes would
benefit from the shift).

> Maybe this is because English is not my first language. Or not.
>
> Kind regards,
> Andrei
> http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[Lee]

On 4/13/20, Celejar wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:47:22 +0300
> Reco  wrote:
>
>>  Hi.
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 07:46:38PM -0400, Lee wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> > I just did a quick search and couldn't find anything for smart TVs
>> > using DOH.
>>
>> Probably because they aren't there yet. A typical smart TV is based on
>> the Android, and Google haven't said their word about DOH so far.
>
> I suppose you mean DoH specifically, as opposed to DNS over TLS (DoT),
> but just to clarify for the record, they have implemented the latter:
>
> https://blog.cloudflare.com/enable-private-dns-with-1-1-1-1-on-android-9-pie/
> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-enable-dns-over-tls-in-android-pie/
>

Yes, DNS over HTTPS specifically is the concern.  DNS over TLS uses a
specific port (that they could change, yeah, i know) that I have
blocked, so I'm not all that concerned about DoT.

Regards,
Lee

Re: Can I install Debian on Raspberry Pi?

[Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming]

Noted with thanks.

On 2020-04-14 17:13, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 05:03:46PM +0800, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En 
Ming wrote:

How about the latest Raspberry Pi 4 Model B 4 GB?


I would refer you to this page to get the latest status:

For the Pi 4, it claims "There is no support for it in the Debian
kernels yet."

According to this blog

It's possible if you use a kernel from outside Debian, provided by the
Raspberry Pi foundation. But I would suggest this was not a
beginner-level project.







-BEGIN EMAIL SIGNATURE-

The Gospel for all Targeted Individuals (TIs):

[The New York Times] Microwave Weapons Are Prime Suspect in Ills of
U.S. Embassy Workers

Link: 
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba-microwave.html




Singaporean Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming's Academic
Qualifications as at 14 Feb 2019 and refugee seeking attempts at the 
United Nations Refugee Agency Bangkok (21 Mar 2017), in Taiwan (5 Aug 
2019) and Australia (25 Dec 2019 to 9 Jan 2020):


[1] https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com/

[2] https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.sg/

[3] https://www.scribd.com/user/270125049/Teo-En-Ming

-END EMAIL SIGNATURE-

Re: Can I install Debian on Raspberry Pi?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 05:03:46PM +0800, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote:

How about the latest Raspberry Pi 4 Model B 4 GB?


I would refer you to this page to get the latest status:

For the Pi 4, it claims "There is no support for it in the Debian
kernels yet."

According to this blog

It's possible if you use a kernel from outside Debian, provided by the
Raspberry Pi foundation. But I would suggest this was not a
beginner-level project.



--
👱🏻  Jonathan Dowland
🔗   https://jmtd.net

Re: Can I install Debian on Raspberry Pi?

[Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming]

How about the latest Raspberry Pi 4 Model B 4 GB?

On 2020-04-14 16:58, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Ma, 14 apr 20, 16:47:43, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote:

Good afternoon from Singapore,

Can I install Debian on Raspberry Pi? When I am downloading Debian 
ISOs, do

I choose the arm64 architecture?


Depends on the model.

Kind regards,
Andrei


--
-BEGIN EMAIL SIGNATURE-

The Gospel for all Targeted Individuals (TIs):

[The New York Times] Microwave Weapons Are Prime Suspect in Ills of
U.S. Embassy Workers

Link: 
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba-microwave.html




Singaporean Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming's Academic
Qualifications as at 14 Feb 2019 and refugee seeking attempts at the 
United Nations Refugee Agency Bangkok (21 Mar 2017), in Taiwan (5 Aug 
2019) and Australia (25 Dec 2019 to 9 Jan 2020):


[1] https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com/

[2] https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.sg/

[3] https://www.scribd.com/user/270125049/Teo-En-Ming

-END EMAIL SIGNATURE-

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Curt]

On 2020-04-13, Tom Dial  wrote:
>
> 3. I also know nothing about Discourse. Although the remarks so far in
> the thread don't particularly make me want to use it, I don't find the
> idea entirely abhorrent.

Color me stupid but I mosied over to the test site and couldn't figure
out how to post. Maybe you gotta sign up (that must be it). 

My current Trust Level: Totally Untrustworthy.

  Badges? We ain't got no badges! We don't need no badges! I don't have
  to show you any stinking badges!

Some Discourse "badges":

 Higher Love
 Used 50 likes in a day 5 times

 Nice Share
 Shared a post with 25 unique visitors

 Anniversary
 Active member for a year, posted at least once

 Good Reply
 Received 25 likes on a reply

 Nice Topic
 Received 10 likes on a topic

Lord Jesus. Isn't this kind of Pavlovian mind-fuck derived from Facebook
et. al. (I don't participate in any of that, being anti-social and all, 
so I'm unsure).

At any rate, my primary sentiment is one of embarrassment.

Re: Can I install Debian on Raspberry Pi?

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 14 apr 20, 16:47:43, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote:
> Good afternoon from Singapore,
> 
> Can I install Debian on Raspberry Pi? When I am downloading Debian ISOs, do
> I choose the arm64 architecture?

Depends on the model.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Can I install Debian on Raspberry Pi?

[Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming]

Good afternoon from Singapore,

Can I install Debian on Raspberry Pi? When I am downloading Debian ISOs, 
do I choose the arm64 architecture?


I am looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Thank you.






-BEGIN EMAIL SIGNATURE-

The Gospel for all Targeted Individuals (TIs):

[The New York Times] Microwave Weapons Are Prime Suspect in Ills of
U.S. Embassy Workers

Link: 
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba-microwave.html




Singaporean Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming's Academic
Qualifications as at 14 Feb 2019 and refugee seeking attempts at the 
United Nations Refugee Agency Bangkok (21 Mar 2017), in Taiwan (5 Aug 
2019) and Australia (25 Dec 2019 to 9 Jan 2020):


[1] https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com/

[2] https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.sg/

[3] https://www.scribd.com/user/270125049/Teo-En-Ming

-END EMAIL SIGNATURE-

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 14 apr 20, 08:19:50, Curt wrote:
> On 2020-04-14, Andrei POPESCU  wrote:
> >
> > It doesn't matter much as nobody is proposing to replace debian-user
> > with Discourse.
> 
> Nobody but Neil McGovern himself.
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2020/04/msg00074.html
>  
>  What about the mailing lists?
>This may or may not be a replacement for any particular list.
>  
>  Be specific!
>Ok... I think debian-user, debian-vote and possibly debian-project
>would be better off in Discourse.
> 
> Obviously, as usual, confusion reigns supreme.

To me "may or may not be a replacemnt" and "would be better of" are very 
far away from "I propose to replace X with Y".

Maybe this is because English is not my first language. Or not.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: Can't get my Debian laptop to use my Radeon 520 Mobile graphics card

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

As far as I understand, kernel 5.4 supports your GPU.
What is the outcome of the two commands

$ lsmod | grep amdgpu
$ find /lib/modules -name 'amdgpu*'

The packages you try to install are not from Debian, maybe they are not up to 
date.

Regards,
Jörg.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Curt]

On 2020-04-14, Andrei POPESCU  wrote:
>
> It doesn't matter much as nobody is proposing to replace debian-user
> with Discourse.
>

Nobody but Neil McGovern himself.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2020/04/msg00074.html
 
 What about the mailing lists?
   This may or may not be a replacement for any particular list.
 
 Be specific!
   Ok... I think debian-user, debian-vote and possibly debian-project
   would be better off in Discourse.

Obviously, as usual, confusion reigns supreme.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 14 apr 20, 07:57:50, Curt wrote:
> 
> As Brian P. has already sort of implied, some might find it hard to
> believe in the total sincerity of a change to Discourse for debian-user
> (a community of users for users by users) in the name of inclusiveness
> and respectfulness (dixit Steve M.) that expressly does *not* include (and
> therefore cannot rightfully respect) debian-users in the decisional
> discourse, who had to rely on a heads up by Reco to abruptly discover we
> had a King who fails to consult his subjects.
 
In my opinion you are making more out of it than it is. Nothing was 
decided and the Discourse instance is just a test (hence the debian.net 
domain) which may as well fail.

Besides, if you care about things like this you should subscribe to the 
relevant mailing list (in this case -project).

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
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Re: Moderation (not!) [was: Debian is testing Discourse]

[tomas]

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:07:12PM +0900, 황병희 wrote:
> [sorry man it just off message]
> 
>  writes:
> 
> > ...
> > But I'm just a dumb C programmer :-)
> 
> Oh tomas! you awesome!
> Actually i like C programmer(s) ^^^

Be careful. We are a bit like dinosaurs :-)

Cheers
[1] https://xkcd.com/145/
(No, there was no ref to this footnote in text)
-- t


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Re: HTML mail + PDF attachments

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 14 apr 20, 07:25:28, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 09:51:38AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > I suppose I need to reduce the limit of the number of messages
> > > downloaded in a sesson, so as to enable more frequent checks for
> > > incoming messages.
> > 
> > What benefit would this bring?
> 
> Perhaps once a month or once every other month, I am on the telephone
> with a party who is sending me an email, typically with an attachment.
> And typically I have been "on hold" on the phone for a half hour to
> reach that individual.  So the other guy says, "I just sent the
> message; tell me when you receive it."  And I must reply, "My system
> checks for new messages only every three minutes."
 
Ah, the classic (ab)use of e-mail as instant messaging and/or file 
transfer.

> And then three minutes pass as we discuss the weather, and still the
> message has not arrived.  So the other guy sends the message again,
> and we wait another three minutes, and sometimes longer.  For some
> reason, messages from one of the larger domain registration outfits
> routinely take twelve hours to reach me; that was the case two or
> three times within the past few months.

Increasing check frequency wouldn't help with this. It could be some 
anti-spam measure (greylisting). Maybe your provider allows some 
mechanism to whitelist a domain and/or e-mail address, likely via the 
web interface (if there is one).

> So in such instances, it would be nice to check for new mail once a
> minute.  Even better would be a check made immediately upon demand; I
> know how to do that, and I have done it before.  But most of the time,
> a check every half hour would be adequate.

For an instant-like experience with e-mail you need push, not pull (e.g. 
like the IMAP IDLE extension). You would have to replace getmail with 
something like offlineimap or interimap (not familiar with either, so 
can't tell if they would actually work for that and/or fit your needs).

If you want to explore this path I suggest you start a new thread and 
explain what such a system would need to achieve (e.g. full offline copy 
of all messages, sorting/filtering), *not how*, and if there are any 
objective or subjective constraints (e.g. e-mail provider that can't be 
changed, e-mail client you won't part with, etc.)

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[tomas]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 07:03:12PM -0400, Lee wrote:
> On 4/13/20, tomas wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 07:46:38PM -0400, Lee wrote:

[...]

> Agreed.  But how many home users have a local sys admin?  That knows
> how to configure the local resolver?
> 
> OK .. on this list, probably most.  But *nix users are what percentage
> of all users?

I think "percentage" is important. But in the first place, we
are here to make this *possible* at all!

Otherwise we get 0%.

Increasing percentage (aka education) is, of course, as important.

Cheers
-- t


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Curt]

On 2020-04-13, Brad Rogers  wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 18:33:13 - (UTC)
> Curt  wrote:
>
> Hello Curt,
>
>>There could be a channel to connect the pools
>
> There have, in the past existed gateways between mailing lists and usenet
> newsgroups.  They worked well, for the most part.

I'm using one at this very moment.

> Web forums to email rarely works as well, since web forum text editors
> allow for all sorts of formatting guff that doesn't translate to email
> well, if at all despite how good the translating part of the forum
> software is supposed to work (it's always second class).  *Especially*
> when reactionaries like me insist on having plain text emails, or at
> least emails with a plain text part.
>
> I *never* read the HTML part.
>

As Brian P. has already sort of implied, some might find it hard to
believe in the total sincerity of a change to Discourse for debian-user
(a community of users for users by users) in the name of inclusiveness
and respectfulness (dixit Steve M.) that expressly does *not* include (and
therefore cannot rightfully respect) debian-users in the decisional
discourse, who had to rely on a heads up by Reco to abruptly discover we
had a King who fails to consult his subjects.

PCIe USB3.0 Controller - slow write speed to SSD

[pc_f...@bluewin.ch]

Hello,
I have a problem with all my PCIe USB3.0 controllers running on Debian 10.3 64x 
- 
kernel 4.19.0-8 and the backports kernel 5.3.x
They all have diffrent chipsets: VLI805, uPD720201, ASM1042A (latest firmware).
I got on all those controllers the same issue:
I only get 60-80MB/s write speed to the USB 3.0 SSD.
The transfer speed is not steady if i can trust "nmon". 
Only bursts of data geting transfered. Then it sits in idle for about 3 seconds 
and does nothing.
I recorded a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXipqVX1RnQ&feature=youtu.be
I'm getting 300MB/s write speed on windows. I have no issue with the read speed 
(300MB/s) on Debian.
I already tried follow:
- blacklisted uas -> lsblk didn't even show the USB3.0 SSD
- kernel parameters : iommu=soft intel_iommu=off pci=nomsi -> didn't change 
anything 
Tested on follow hardware:
CPU: 2x Intel Xeon L5640
MB1: Tyan S7012 (EOL, latest BIOS)
MB2: Supermicro X8DTH-I (EOL, latest BIOS)
SSD(internal): 2x Adata SU800 1TB (SATAII AHCI) (software raid 1 mdadm)
SSD(usb): 2.5" enclosure - Samsung 850 Evo 256GB (latest firmware on enclosure 
and ssd)
It is old hardware, i know that, but i never had a issue like this on linux.
All old hardware that i had run flawless on linux even when there was no 
drivers for windows anymore.
Maybe this is a bug. But i need to be sure.
Do you need more information? Just tell me.
Thanks alot,
Patrick

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 13 apr 20, 22:38:11, Sven Hartge wrote:
> 
> Same example from my circle of friends and aquaintances:
> 
>  - some use WhatsApp
>  - some use Facebook
>  - some use Mail (like me)

https://xkcd.com/1782/

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: HTML mail + PDF attachments

[Russell L. Harris]

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 09:51:38AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

I suppose I need to reduce the limit of the number of messages
downloaded in a sesson, so as to enable more frequent checks for
incoming messages.


What benefit would this bring?


Perhaps once a month or once every other month, I am on the telephone
with a party who is sending me an email, typically with an attachment.
And typically I have been "on hold" on the phone for a half hour to
reach that individual.  So the other guy says, "I just sent the
message; tell me when you receive it."  And I must reply, "My system
checks for new messages only every three minutes."

And then three minutes pass as we discuss the weather, and still the
message has not arrived.  So the other guy sends the message again,
and we wait another three minutes, and sometimes longer.  For some
reason, messages from one of the larger domain registration outfits
routinely take twelve hours to reach me; that was the case two or
three times within the past few months.

So in such instances, it would be nice to check for new mail once a
minute.  Even better would be a check made immediately upon demand; I
know how to do that, and I have done it before.  But most of the time,
a check every half hour would be adequate.

RLH

Re: Moderation (not!) [was: Debian is testing Discourse]

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 13 apr 20, 20:37:29, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:19:56 -0500
> John Hasler  wrote:
> 
> Hello John,
> 
> >Though described as a mailing list manager Sympa has a full Web
> >interface that might satisfy email-phobic millennials.
> 
> It's not something I'd heard of.  I'll check it out.  Not that I'm in the
> market for setting up an ML, or anything.

I'm curious about that as well, if anyone is aware of a deployment.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 13 apr 20, 20:30:45, Brian wrote:
> 
> If the proposer and supporters of the idea that debian-user would be
> be better off in Discourse were prepared to engage here, we might have
> a better understanding of the intention. I fear such engagement will
> be conspicuous by its absence.

It doesn't matter much as nobody is proposing to replace debian-user 
with Discourse.

> A similar, less constrictive, idea has been tried before
> 
>   http://shapado.debian.net/
> 
> and has failed miserably.

Sadly this yet another instance where I end up finding better answers 
about Debian on non-Debian platforms (like StackExchange), the other one 
being the Arch's wiki (significantly better than Debian's).

For some reasons (missing SEO?) I don't see many hits from 
lists.debian.org in DuckDuckGo or Google.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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