Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 1:24 AM ghe2001  wrote:
>
> How about a /29 or so, named "here.", hosts named 2 or 3 
> letter abbreviations of what you call the computers, with unroutable IPs, 
> DNS'ed in /etc/hosts (with shortcuts).

Whatever you come up with for , ICANN can add to the
gTLD namespace; see .

The DNS queries for fii.xy (a typo) will escape your homenet when you
meant to type foo.xy (the target).

Jeff

Re: 12.2: fork() causing getline() to repeat stdin endlessly

[tom kronmiller]

>
> Try to construct a minimal reproducer, and post it here.  Someone may
> be able to spot the issue.  The shorter and simpler you can make your

reproducer, the more likely someone will be able to help.


The program:

// gcc -o program program.c
// program < lines

#include 
#include 
#include 
#include 
#include 

int main(int, char **) {
char *  line_buf = NULL;
size_t  stg_size = 0u;
ssize_t num_read = 0;
size_t  line_num = 0;

while (-1 < (num_read = getline(_buf, _size, stdin))) {
++line_num;
printf("%s", line_buf);
if (num_read != 53) {
printf("num_read: %ld at line %lu\n", num_read, line_num);
}

pid_t pid = fork();
if (0 == pid) {
exit(0);
}
else if (pid > 0) {
(void) waitpid(pid, NULL, 0);
}
}
return(0);
}

Without the fork/exit/waitpid block of code, it prints the input
successfully.  With that code included, it goes into an infinite loop
printing the first 78 lines of input,  Every second pass over the input,the
78th line is garbled.
7777777777xx
78  1 1xx
num_read: 30 at line 6433
2  2 2 2 2xx

The input file "lines" is (all lines 52 charactures + \n == 53 characters):
1  1 1 1 1xx
2  2 2 2 2xx
3  3 3 3 3xx
4  4 4 4 4xx
5  5 5 5 5xx
6  6 6 6 6xx
7  7 7 7 7xx
8  8 8 8 8xx
9  9 9 9 9xx
1010101010xx
1111111111xx
1212121212xx
1313131313xx
1414141414xx
1515151515xx
1616161616xx
1717171717xx
1818181818xx
1919191919xx
2020202020xx
2121212121xx
2222222222xx
2323232323xx
2424242424xx
2525252525xx
2626262626xx
2727272727xx
2828282828xx
2929292929xx
3030303030xx
3131313131xx
3232323232xx
3333333333xx
3434343434xx
3535353535xx
3636363636xx
3737373737xx
3838383838xx
3939393939xx
4040404040xx
4141414141xx
4242424242xx
4343434343xx
4444444444xx
4545454545xx
4646464646xx
4747474747xx
4848484848xx
4949494949xx
5050505050xx
5151515151xx
5252525252xx
5353535353xx
5454545454xx
5555555555xx
5656565656xx
5757575757xx
5858585858xx
5959595959xx
6060606060xx
6161616161xx
6262626262xx
6363636363xx
6464646464xx
6565656565xx
6666666666xx
6767676767xx
6868686868xx
6969696969xx
70   

Re: can you parse and "tail" at once? (and if you can't why not?)

[tomas]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 10:13:26PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

[...]

Good points all over -- I envy your clarity.

To drive home Greg's point about naming conventions a bit
more: bash (in general, shells) have very little protection
for mis-naming variables (you don' have to declare them,
they have dynamic, not lexical bindings, etc.).

That's why naming conventions are more important there.

In shells, there's more: shell variables and environment
variables (those you "export") are quite different beasts,
so making them visually differentiable is the more important.

See, a programming language is a communication tool. You
talk to other people with it. Observing conventions is
part of a language.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: 12.2: fork() causing getline() to repeat stdin endlessly

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 10:50:15PM -0400, tom kronmiller wrote:
> I have a small program (extracted from a big program) which reads and
> prints input lines using a loop of getline() calls.  The real input lines
> are all expected to be 52 characters long (+1 for the newline => 53),
> that's what my example data for the small program looks like.  If there is
> no fork() in the loop, it works fine.  Inside the loop if I do a fork() of
> a child which immediately exits (no exec) and waitpid() for it, then the
> program loops forever repeating the beginning portion of stdin.
> 
> I have no idea what package to report the problem against, though it
> doesn't seem to be gcc as I have tried both gcc12 (which comes with debian)
> and gcc13 (which I installed manually).

Without knowing you or your code, I'd have to estimate that the chance
of this being a bug in your code is MUCH higher than the chance of this
being a C compiler bug.

Try to construct a minimal reproducer, and post it here.  Someone may
be able to spot the issue.  The shorter and simpler you can make your
reproducer, the more likely someone will be able to help.

There's also a good chance that the process of constructing the reproducer
will reveal the error to you.  This happens frequently.

Re: 12.2: fork() causing getline() to repeat stdin endlessly

[Stefan Monnier]

> I have a small program (extracted from a big program) which reads and
> prints input lines using a loop of getline() calls.  The real input lines
> are all expected to be 52 characters long (+1 for the newline => 53),
> that's what my example data for the small program looks like.  If there is
> no fork() in the loop, it works fine.  Inside the loop if I do a fork() of
> a child which immediately exits (no exec) and waitpid() for it, then the
> program loops forever repeating the beginning portion of stdin.
>
> I have no idea what package to report the problem against, though it
> doesn't seem to be gcc as I have tried both gcc12 (which comes with debian)
> and gcc13 (which I installed manually).

My crystal ball says the most likely culprits are (in order):
- your code.
- POSIX.
- glibc.
- the kernel.


Stefan

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Minecraftchest1]

You can also set the dns server in NetworkManager directly.

``` bash
nmcli connection modify "$connection-name" ipv4.dns "$dns-servers"
```
where $connection-name is the name found in `nmcli connection` under NAME, and 
$dns-servers is a comma seperated list of DNS servers you want to use. If you 
want to set it for IPv6, change ipv4 to ipv6 after the connection name and use 
ipv6 addresses for your server.

You can verify the change by
``` bash
echo 'print ipv4.dns' | nmcli connection edit "$connection-name"
```

On October 22, 2023 11:36:24 PM UTC, Michael Biebl  wrote:
>
>> I want NetworkManager to not over write /etc/resolv.conf
>> 
>> According to the docs if dns=none is set it will not touch /etc/resolv.conf
>
>This should work, and this does work here.
>
>If not, please do file a bug report.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[Stefan Monnier]

>> This is generally true, Greg, and I get that, but every new version,
>> which should just continue what works, doesn't cuz somebody moved a
>> config file and last years fix doesn't work this year.  And you can't
>> ask for help when its not working. So YOU have to fix it based of what
>> YOU know works.  Makes one wonder about the motives.
> I use host files and I don't have that problem.

Same here: the last time I had problems with `/etc/hosts` files was
back when `/etc/nsswitch.conf` was introduced :-)
That was before I started using Debian.

I can relate to Gene's feelings since there's been indeed some churn
over the years, but `/etc/hosts` seems like an odd example because this
one is among the most stable part of Unix/Linux.


Stefan

12.2: fork() causing getline() to repeat stdin endlessly

[tom kronmiller]

I have a small program (extracted from a big program) which reads and
prints input lines using a loop of getline() calls.  The real input lines
are all expected to be 52 characters long (+1 for the newline => 53),
that's what my example data for the small program looks like.  If there is
no fork() in the loop, it works fine.  Inside the loop if I do a fork() of
a child which immediately exits (no exec) and waitpid() for it, then the
program loops forever repeating the beginning portion of stdin.

I have no idea what package to report the problem against, though it
doesn't seem to be gcc as I have tried both gcc12 (which comes with debian)
and gcc13 (which I installed manually).

Also, will "reportbug" allow me to attach the program and example input to
the bug report?  Should I post them here?

Thanks.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[Max Nikulin]

On 23/10/2023 04:43, gene heskett wrote:


As I keep repeating Dan, there is not a local dns, its all a 15 entry 
hosts file atm. So that cannot bite /me/.


It can. Some day .den TLD may be registered and chosen by a 3d printer 
manufacturer. It might happen that you would not be able to access docs 
for your shiny new device and you would claim something like



Google seems to have high jacked port 80


https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/0a8b96aa-8630-ee5c-5135-59221c55b...@shentel.net

Re: can you parse and "tail" at once? (and if you can't why not?)

[Patrick Wiseman]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023, 10:39 PM Albretch Mueller  wrote:

>  OK, Greg's suggestion once again "made my day".
>  I know at some point I will have to code everything in some
> programming language, but for now I will just get things done as
> quickly as possible.
>  Also, Greg, please, I would like for you to understand that it is not
> my intention to upset you about what you find visually upsetting. We
> have talked about that before.
>  I am sure you could certainly understand that there are reasons why
> some people build certain habits and that not everyone gets upset
> about the same kinds of "secondary accidents" (as Aristotle would put
> it). Some people may have a hard time even noticing what upsets you.
>  lbrtchx
>
> Context? Totally lost. No need to reply, I haven't been following anyway.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> This is generally true, Greg, and I get that, but every new version,
> which should just continue what works, doesn't cuz somebody moved a
> config file and last years fix doesn't work this year.  And you can't
> ask for help when its not working. So YOU have to fix it based of what
> YOU know works.  Makes one wonder about the motives.

I use host files and I don't have that problem.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 20:48, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 08:36:53PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

What really bugs me is when the maintainers forget there are hosts file
users, and do something that totally screws us up,


Gene, you're being irrational again.  "Hosts file only" systems have been
supported since before Debian existed, without surcease.  There has never
been a time when they weren't supported.  There never will be.

Any issues you've encountered have been the result of misconfiguration.
You have repeatedly shown errors in your config files, and once those
have been corrected, everything has worked as expected.



This is generally true, Greg, and I get that, but every new version, 
which should just continue what works, doesn't cuz somebody moved a 
config file and last years fix doesn't work this year.  And you can't 
ask for help when its not working. So YOU have to fix it based of what 
YOU know works.  Makes one wonder about the motives.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: can you parse and "tail" at once? (and if you can't why not?)

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 01:32:08AM +, Albretch Mueller wrote:
> On 10/22/23, Andy Smith  wrote:
> > Most of the points Greg makes to you are matters of correctness, not
> > matters of taste.
> 
>  that you called "matters of correctness" may be "visual things" to
> other people. this is something I see on a daily basis I don't try to
> "correct" my students ways, but help them learn, see things for
> themselves.

Was I not sufficiently clear in my explanations?  Sorry.

Your original post contained this line of code:

cat "${IFL}" | grep "${DESC_DIR}" | tail -c+$_DESC_DIR

In the interests of learning, let's analyze this line *in full*.  From
left to right:

1) Useless use of cat.  In this particular example, the result is still
   correct.  The code is simply longer and slower than it needs to be.

2) All-caps variable name IFL.  All-caps variable names are reserved, by
   convention, for environment variables (e.g. PATH) and special shell
   variables (e.g. IFS).  I assume your variable IFL stands for "input
   file".  But note how close it is to IFS.  I can easily imagine that
   at some point in the future, if you continue using all-caps variable
   names inappropriately, you might accidentally use one that collides
   with an environment variable or a special shell variable.

   Accidentally overwriting IFS is going to break your scripts faster
   than you can imagine.

3) grep "${DESC_DIR}".  Another all-caps variable name, but I won't repeat
   that point.  $DESC_DIR is being passed to a command that expects a
   regular expression, but in your example, it's a literal string.
   Therefore you should use grep -F.  Or use a regular expression in
   DESC_DIR, but that wouldn't be my preferred choice.

4) The tail command is not correct here.  This is the primary error.
   The tail needs to be replaced to make the script work.  Tail operates
   on whole files, not on each line of input, regardless of what options
   you use.

5) You used the _DESC_DIR variable and the DESC_DIR variable together in
   the same command.  I can only imagine one of them was a typo for the
   other.

6) The _DESC_DIR variable expansion is not quoted.  Assuming that it was
   meant to be DESC_DIR which contains a string with spaces and glob
   characters in it, it *must* be quoted, or else it gets passed as an
   unguessable number of separate arguments.

Those are the actual issues I spotted.  I omitted a few in my previous
post, because I wasn't trying to be fully pedantic.  I am now.

Beyond that, I pointed out (by inference) that the code you wrote was
too *limited*.  If the errors are corrected, it will print the output
that you asked for.  But it can't be extended easily to do anything *more*
than that.

Assuming that you actually wanted to *do* something with each line's
suffix, it makes more sense to include some sort of loop, in which you
can add arbitrary commands to do whatever task is needed.

That's why I replaced the tail with a "while read" loop instead of a
single self-contained command, such as sed, which could have done the
printing task more concisely.

Finally, one might wonder why I used this form:

while IFS= read -r line; do

done < <(grep ...)

instead of the simpler form:

grep ... |
while IFS= read -r line; do
...
done

This was another conscious choice to offer more flexibility for extending
the script.  In the simpler form, the while loop is executed in a subshell
(because of the pipeline).  When the loop terminates, any changes made in
the subshell are discarded.  This makes it impossible to set persistent
variables inside the loop, and then use them afterward.

The form that I used, with the process substition <(...), runs the loop
in the main shell process, not in a subshell.  With this form, it's
possible to set variables within the loop, and refer to them afterward.

If you have additional questions, feel free to ask them.

Re: can you parse and "tail" at once? (and if you can't why not?)

[Albretch Mueller]

On 10/22/23, Andy Smith  wrote:
> So you might consider telling us what you will do next with the
> suffix of each line.

 Now you have gone into mind reading mode.

On 10/22/23, Andy Smith  wrote:
> Most of the points Greg makes to you are matters of correctness, not
> matters of taste.

 that you called "matters of correctness" may be "visual things" to
other people. this is something I see on a daily basis I don't try to
"correct" my students ways, but help them learn, see things for
themselves.

> I don't know how many times you will have the opportunity to
> continue talking with knowledgable people who try to help you, if
> you dismiss their points as them just being "upset" over aesthetics.

 and I don't understand your adhominen cr@p. For one, Greg understood
right away my problem which I explicitly explained, so from where do
you take the time to keep talking about any of it?

On 10/22/23, gene heskett  wrote:
> Very well said Andy.
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>   - Louis D. Brandeis

 Nor do I understand what support from "the international community"
(tm) has to do with some Linux bash script.

 lbrtchx

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 08:36:53PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> What really bugs me is when the maintainers forget there are hosts file
> users, and do something that totally screws us up,

Gene, you're being irrational again.  "Hosts file only" systems have been
supported since before Debian existed, without surcease.  There has never
been a time when they weren't supported.  There never will be.

Any issues you've encountered have been the result of misconfiguration.
You have repeatedly shown errors in your config files, and once those
have been corrected, everything has worked as expected.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 18:45, John Hasler wrote:

I wrote:

It's for people who haven't a clue as to what a domainname or address
block is.


Gene writes:

If that is an insult, so be it.


I just meant to explain that though it is not a solution to your problem,
it is a solution to a problem some other people have.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other John.

What really bugs me is when the maintainers forget there are hosts file 
users, and do something that totally screws us up, getting help to 
restore a broken system can't be done, cuz you can't ask anything with 
it broken, and when by brute force, you finally get it sorta working, 
95% of the help you need to really make it right is replaced by 
instructions on how to setup just one facet of dhcp, so it often has to 
be a snippet there, and another from someplace else, repeat till it all 
works, gleaned from the 5% who do understand but are often drowned out 
by the why the hell don't you run dhcp crowd representing the other 95%.


Not your fault of course, that is just how it is as viewed from this 
chair, by the same guy whose been online since before Delphi, with a 
trs-80 Color computer since we were blessed with a server at Princeton 
in the 80's.  A remodel got it walled in and forgotten about till 
another remodel tore out the wall exposing it a decade later, still 
running. 30+ years later I can't even remember its name. Perhaps you do.


Take care & stay well John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[ghe2001]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

How about a /29 or so, named "here.", hosts named 2 or 3 letter 
abbreviations of what you call the computers, with unroutable IPs, DNS'ed in 
/etc/hosts (with shortcuts).

Works here...

--
Glenn English

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Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Michael Biebl]

I want NetworkManager to not over write /etc/resolv.conf

According to the docs if dns=none is set it will not touch /etc/resolv.conf


This should work, and this does work here.

If not, please do file a bug report.


OpenPGP_signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Pocket]

On 10/22/23 18:36, Lee wrote:

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 1:18 PM Greg Wooledge  wrote:

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 11:22:06AM -0400, Lee wrote:

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you use the example from
https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf and do

echo 'make_resolv_conf() { :; }' >
/etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone
chmod 755 /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone

Because that only affects isc-dhcp-client, and does nothing for other
DHCP clients, such as Network Manager.

I can sort of understand that an all volunteer project is going to
have some rough edges and inconsistencies, but this is a bit much.  My
understanding is that ISC no longer supports their dhcp client
software so the isc-dhcp-client package will go away someday?
correct?  & I suspect whatever works today will break when the new
software comes out, so I'd rather get a head-start on how to work with
the replacement.

How can I find out who is working on what replacement?

Thanks
Lee



https://www.isc.org/kea/


--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[John Hasler]

I wrote:
> It's for people who haven't a clue as to what a domainname or address
> block is.

Gene writes:
> If that is an insult, so be it.

I just meant to explain that though it is not a solution to your problem,
it is a solution to a problem some other people have. 
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Lee]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 1:18 PM Greg Wooledge  wrote:
>
> On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 11:22:06AM -0400, Lee wrote:
> > Just out of curiosity, why didn't you use the example from
> > https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf and do
> >
> > echo 'make_resolv_conf() { :; }' >
> > /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone
> > chmod 755 /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone
>
> Because that only affects isc-dhcp-client, and does nothing for other
> DHCP clients, such as Network Manager.

I can sort of understand that an all volunteer project is going to
have some rough edges and inconsistencies, but this is a bit much.  My
understanding is that ISC no longer supports their dhcp client
software so the isc-dhcp-client package will go away someday?
correct?  & I suspect whatever works today will break when the new
software comes out, so I'd rather get a head-start on how to work with
the replacement.

How can I find out who is working on what replacement?

Thanks
Lee

Re: can you parse and "tail" at once? (and if you can't why not?)

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 17:11, Andy Smith wrote:

Hello,

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 08:50:55PM +, Albretch Mueller wrote:

Greg, please, I would like for you to understand that it is not my
intention to upset you about what you find visually upsetting. We
have talked about that before.


Most of the points Greg makes to you are matters of correctness, not
matters of taste.

I don't know how many times you will have the opportunity to
continue talking with knowledgable people who try to help you, if
you dismiss their points as them just being "upset" over aesthetics.


  I am sure you could certainly understand that there are reasons why
some people build certain habits and that not everyone gets upset
about the same kinds of "secondary accidents" (as Aristotle would put
it). Some people may have a hard time even noticing what upsets you.


Most of the time when asking for help from people with a lot more
knowledge than me in a given subject, I tend to assume that if I
find something they say to be oddly picky or unnecessarily strict
then it's most likely because of a gap in my own knowledge, rather
than them trying to make me slaves to their own personal style.

Thanks,
Andy


Very well said Andy.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 14:19, John Hasler wrote:

Gene writes:

Chuckle. Looks like a solution looking for a problem. You can use
whatever domainname that tickles your fancy when your net is in an
un-routeable address block.


It's for people who haven't a clue as to what a domainname or address
block is.


If that is an insult, so be it.


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7788


Many Thanks for the link John, but having spent 20 minutes scanning thru 
that, my probably invalid comment would be that all the links are there 
but not even a Philadelphia lawyer could grasp it in 5 years time. 
Assuming each link is 20,000 words or more, at 400 wpm I don't have 
enough time left to read it all.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 14:17, Dan Ritter wrote:

gene heskett wrote:

On 10/22/23 11:19, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 7:13 AM Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> wrote:



https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8375



Chuckle. Looks like a solution looking for a problem. You can use whatever
domainname that tickles your fancy when your net is in an un-routeable
address block.



Sure. Right up until the day that someone registers it on the
Net at large.

As of March 2021, the IANA root database includes 1589 TLDs.
"den" is not currently one of them, but that could change at any
point, and then there would be a high likelihood of "coyote.den"
being registered by someone else.

You might not have a specific problem with that, depending on
how you do local DNS, and depending on what you want. But it's
safer to either use a recognized internal domain (home.arpa, for
instance) or a domain that you own, either with split views or
unpublished internal subdomains (internal.randomstring.org, for
example).


As I keep repeating Dan, there is not a local dns, its all a 15 entry 
hosts file atm. So that cannot bite /me/.


Now If I should make a typu, fat fingering & miss-spelling an alias, I 
suppose that might resolve to someplace in the neighorhood of a yurt 
near Ulan Bator and they might not appreciate my trying to login in 
English. Until then I'm not inclined to lose much sleep over it.  If it 
ever happens, its adjustable in any event. It will all die when this 
stuff gets turned off by the cleanup crew after I miss roll call.


There's about 6 years left in the pacemaker battery and the average life 
of a TAVR heart valve is another 8 or so years. By then I will be 95 and 
might be napping in my morning cereal. Higher Powers have missed several 
chances to claim me, but they'd look ar the book and send me down, I'd 
fix the stoker, rewind the generators and open an air conditioned bar 
and neither of them could tolerate that. In the meantime ;o)>




-dsr-
.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: can you parse and "tail" at once? (and if you can't why not?)

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 08:50:55PM +, Albretch Mueller wrote:
> Greg, please, I would like for you to understand that it is not my
> intention to upset you about what you find visually upsetting. We
> have talked about that before.

Most of the points Greg makes to you are matters of correctness, not
matters of taste.

I don't know how many times you will have the opportunity to
continue talking with knowledgable people who try to help you, if
you dismiss their points as them just being "upset" over aesthetics.

>  I am sure you could certainly understand that there are reasons why
> some people build certain habits and that not everyone gets upset
> about the same kinds of "secondary accidents" (as Aristotle would put
> it). Some people may have a hard time even noticing what upsets you.

Most of the time when asking for help from people with a lot more
knowledge than me in a given subject, I tend to assume that if I
find something they say to be oddly picky or unnecessarily strict
then it's most likely because of a gap in my own knowledge, rather
than them trying to make me slaves to their own personal style.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: can you parse and "tail" at once? (and if you can't why not?)

[Albretch Mueller]

 OK, Greg's suggestion once again "made my day".
 I know at some point I will have to code everything in some
programming language, but for now I will just get things done as
quickly as possible.
 Also, Greg, please, I would like for you to understand that it is not
my intention to upset you about what you find visually upsetting. We
have talked about that before.
 I am sure you could certainly understand that there are reasons why
some people build certain habits and that not everyone gets upset
about the same kinds of "secondary accidents" (as Aristotle would put
it). Some people may have a hard time even noticing what upsets you.
 lbrtchx

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 2:33 PM Dan Ritter  wrote:
>
> gene heskett wrote:
> > On 10/22/23 11:19, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> > > On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 7:13 AM Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> 
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8375
> > >
> > Chuckle. Looks like a solution looking for a problem. You can use whatever
> > domainname that tickles your fancy when your net is in an un-routeable
> > address block.
>
>
> Sure. Right up until the day that someone registers it on the
> Net at large.
>
> As of March 2021, the IANA root database includes 1589 TLDs.
> "den" is not currently one of them, but that could change at any
> point, and then there would be a high likelihood of "coyote.den"
> being registered by someone else.
>
> You might not have a specific problem with that, depending on
> how you do local DNS, and depending on what you want. But it's
> safer to either use a recognized internal domain (home.arpa, for
> instance) or a domain that you own, either with split views or
> unpublished internal subdomains (internal.randomstring.org, for
> example).

+1.

I've been using home.pvt and home.dmz since the late 1990s. I've been
waiting for it to break since vanity domains/brand tlds are a thing
now. .

Jeff

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Michael Kjörling]

On 22 Oct 2023 13:13 -0500, from j...@sugarbit.com (John Hasler):
> It's for people who haven't a clue as to what a domainname or address
> block is.
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7788

RFC 8375 section 1:

"Although this document makes specific reference to [RFC7788], it is
not intended that the use of 'home.arpa.' be restricted solely to
networks where HNCP is deployed. Rather, 'home.arpa.' is intended to
be the correct domain for uses like the one described for '.home' in
[RFC7788]: local name service in residential homenets."

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Dan Ritter]

gene heskett wrote: 
> 
> So please tell me again what NM is supposed to do for /me/?

Nothing, You do not have a good use case for NM.

NM is for laptops that connect to many different networks,
primarily, and secondarily for corporate networks where many
people will need IT handholding.

In my personal opinion, of course.

-dsr-

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Dan Ritter]

gene heskett wrote: 
> On 10/22/23 11:19, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> > On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 7:13 AM Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> 
> > wrote:
> 
> > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8375
> > 
> Chuckle. Looks like a solution looking for a problem. You can use whatever
> domainname that tickles your fancy when your net is in an un-routeable
> address block.


Sure. Right up until the day that someone registers it on the
Net at large.

As of March 2021, the IANA root database includes 1589 TLDs.
"den" is not currently one of them, but that could change at any
point, and then there would be a high likelihood of "coyote.den"
being registered by someone else.

You might not have a specific problem with that, depending on
how you do local DNS, and depending on what you want. But it's
safer to either use a recognized internal domain (home.arpa, for
instance) or a domain that you own, either with split views or 
unpublished internal subdomains (internal.randomstring.org, for
example).

-dsr-

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> Chuckle. Looks like a solution looking for a problem. You can use
> whatever domainname that tickles your fancy when your net is in an
> un-routeable address block.

It's for people who haven't a clue as to what a domainname or address
block is.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7788
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: A file synchronization tool that respects hardlinks

[Charles Curley]

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 17:40:43 +0300
Itay  wrote:

> According to wikipedia[4] the following tools are bidirectional:
>  FreeFileSync / NextCloud / Owncloud / SyncThing
> Please -- can someone quickly tell me if they respect hardlinks?
> Or recommend another tool(s) that respect hardlinks?

I can tell you that nextcloud and syncthing do not appear to respect
hard links. They will copy two hard linked files (the same inode), but
on the receiving computer the files will not be hard linked.

I suspect the same for owncloud, as nextcloud is a fork of owncloud.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Pocket]

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 22, 2023, at 1:35 PM, Andy Smith  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
>> On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 08:22:24AM -0400, Pocket wrote:
>>> On 10/22/23 04:02, Max Nikulin wrote:
>>> P.S. I do not see any reason to insist on NetworkManager in the case of
>>> a box which role is a DNS server for a local network. ifupdown should be
>>> sufficient. There is no need to detect cable plug/unplug events, to
>>> switch between connection configurations depending on current location
>>> or other circumstances.
>> 
>> I would normally not use NetworkManager on a server system either, but in
>> this case NetworkManager is installed on all the bookworm installation so in
>> this case I choose to work with it instead of removing it.
> 
> That's a reasonable choice but it is a choice you've made.
> NetworkManager isn't any sort of default on Debian; it's a
> dependency pulled in by something in your install script, so it's
> just another choice you've made even if not explicitly.
> 
> There is no compelling reason why you should stick with
> NetworkManager unless you want to or it's a hard dependency of
> something else. If not then it would be fine to remove it and
> achieve the same configuration in a simpler way with ifupdown,
> netplan or systemd-networkd directly. A lot of people would consider
> that a simpler and therefore more desirable setup if NetworkManager
> was not otherwise required.
> 

The reason is that with my default installation I can create a server or 
desktop from the same base.  I have scripts that after a basic install make me 
a new server or desktop.  NetworkManager is installed somehow in that base 
install and then it becomes common so rather than having two different ways of 
bringing up the network I just have one and it just happened to be 
NetworkManager.   I would have  ok if Systemd networking would have been the 
common way as well.  I have used the ifupdown with dhcpcd and Systemd 
networking in the past.  The is my first go with NetworkManger

> I realise that all this has been pointed out already in this thread,
> but again here you've stated that NetworkManager is some sort of
> default for Debian and that the implication as such is that it
> should be worked with rather than removed. One is by no means
> straying from the "main sequence" of Debian by removing
> NetworkManager where no dependency exists.
> 
> I'm glad you have worked with it though, in order to find a solution
> for the problem you were having, and communicated that with us.
> 
> Thanks,
> Andy
> 
> -- 
> https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
> 

Re: can you parse and "tail" at once? (and if you can't why not?)

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 04:33:12PM +, Albretch Mueller wrote:
>  After generating a file with lines of text, I have to:
>  1) parse some of those lines based on a pattern I know (no regex
> necessary, just a FS path)
>  2) once parsed from those lines I need the last n characters only

There's a large number of ways to achieve what you want, but it's
hard to believe that simply getting the suffix is all that you want.
I think it's likely that you'll reject most of the otherwise correct
answers because they don't suit what you're about to do next.

So you might consider telling us what you will do next with the
suffix of each line.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Pocket]

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 22, 2023, at 1:18 PM, Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 11:22:06AM -0400, Lee wrote:
>> Just out of curiosity, why didn't you use the example from
>> https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf and do
>> 
>> echo 'make_resolv_conf() { :; }' >
>> /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone
>> chmod 755 /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone
> 
> Because that only affects isc-dhcp-client, and does nothing for other
> DHCP clients, such as Network Manager.
> 
I don’t know what pulled it in and I am not really at a point in time to slay 
that beast as I have a dns server to setup as well as an email server, never 
mine the NGINX server that needs to be setup asap

Re: can you parse and "tail" at once? (and if you can't why not?)

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 04:33:12PM +, Albretch Mueller wrote:
>  After generating a file with lines of text, I have to:
>  1) parse some of those lines based on a pattern I know (no regex
> necessary, just a FS path)
>  2) once parsed from those lines I need the last n characters only
>  I am trying to use a one liner like:
>  cat "${IFL}" | grep "${DESC_DIR}" | tail -c+$_DESC_DIR
>  but this one liner repeats the output and the tail
> 
The way that -c operates for tail is based on 'each file' provided as
input:

   -c, --bytes=[+]NUM
  output the last NUM bytes; or use -c +NUM to output starting with 
byte NUM of
  each file

However, when piping input in the way you are above, the entire output
of grep is taken as one file and fed into the input of tail. You could
instead loop over the lines coming out of grep, but that feels somewhat
ugly.

Essentially, your pipeline probably needs to be something more like
this:

sed -r -e "s+.*${DESC_DIR}++" "${IFL}" | tail

Or drop the tail entirely if what you really want is the last part of
each line, regardless of how many there are.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Pocket]

Because the script does what the Debian installer does and runs without 
intervention 

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 22, 2023, at 12:41 PM, Max Nikulin  wrote:
> 
> On 22/10/2023 19:22, Pocket wrote:
>> What version of NetworkManager is installed with bullseye?
>> Maybe a newer version is broken?
> 
> I upgraded this VM to bookworm months ago.
> 
> apt policy network-manager
> 
> network-manager:
>  Installed: 1.42.4-1
>  Candidate: 1.42.4-1
>  Version table:
> *** 1.42.4-1 500
>500 http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 Packages
>100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
> 
> My point was that it required some efforts to get an ethernet card be 
> controlled by NetworkManager. Due to deprecation of isc-dhcp-client things 
> may change in bookworm, but I do not see anything suspicious in output of 
> "apt-cache showpkg network-manager".
> 
> I am curious which package pulled network-manager in your case
> 
>   aptitude why network-manager
> 
> or
> 
>   apt list '?narrow(~i, 
> ~DRecommends:~n^network-manager$|~D~n^network-manager$)'
> 
> In my case it is recommended by plasma-desktop.
> 

Re: can you parse and "tail" at once? (and if you can't why not?)

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 04:33:12PM +, Albretch Mueller wrote:
>  I am trying to use a one liner like:
>  cat "${IFL}" | grep "${DESC_DIR}" | tail -c+$_DESC_DIR
>  but this one liner repeats the output and the tail

Brevity is not the measure of goodness.  When you write a shell script,
it's *OK* to use more than one line.

Also, please stop using ALL_CAPS variable names for internal script
variables.  ALL_CAPS names are by convention reserved for the environment.
Names with a leading underscore are allowed, but should be used only
when you need something special.  There's nothing special in the code
above to merit a variable name like _DESC_DIR.

Also also, useless use of cat .

Finally, mixing up _DESC_DIR and DESC_DIR is probably not helping you.

>  Say the lines of text in IFL are:
> [info] 123XYZ: 
> /media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/Uppsala_Algebra/45_16.3_45MEB5h5H9Y.description
> [info] 123XYZ: 
> /media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/Uppsala_Algebra/46_17.1_LE_gl5RcDnY.description
> [info] 123XYZ: 
> /media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/Göttsche/17_9jKzwoBGFs8.description
> [info] 123XYZ: 
> /media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/Göttsche/18_plOUIOo91lI.description
> [info] 123XYZ: 
> /media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/Göttsche/19_TJ7yAiq8gEw.description
> [info] 123XYZ: 
> /media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/Göttsche/20_UMBEgb14uqw.description
> 
>  I know the prefix:
> [info] 123XYZ: /media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/
> 
>  I need as output:
> 
> Uppsala_Algebra/45_16.3_45MEB5h5H9Y
> Uppsala_Algebra/46_17.1_LE_gl5RcDnY
> Göttsche/17_9jKzwoBGFs8
> Göttsche/18_plOUIOo91lI
> Göttsche/19_TJ7yAiq8gEw
> Göttsche/20_UMBEgb14uqw

Yay!  Sample input!  That makes it nice and easy.


#!/bin/bash

inputfile=${1-/whatever}
prefix='[info] 123XYZ: 
/media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/'

while IFS= read -r line; do
printf '%s\n' "${line#"$prefix"}"
done < <(grep -F -- "$prefix" "$inputfile")


Yes, I could make it shorter.  I could even use that functional approach
where you pipe grep and sed together, which some people think is the only
way to write shell code.  It could actually be done in a single sed
command (but you'd have to convert the prefix string to a regular
expression first).

I chose not to do any of those, for two reasons:

1) To make it easier to read and understand.
2) To make it possible to do more than simply *printing* the suffixes.

If your script wants to do something with those suffixes, more than
simply printing them on the screen, then the script I wrote is a much
better starting point.  You can stick additional commands inside the
loop body to do whatever you need.


On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 11:07:46AM -0600, Charles Curley wrote:
> Bash has built in operators to extract this sort of thing. Greg
> Wooledge will know what they are called. Something like:
> 
> fspec="/exp/home1/abc.txt" 
> filename="${fspec##*/}"  # get filename
> dirname="${fspec%/*}" # get directory/path name
> 
> That doesn't do exactly what you want, but comes close.

Those are called Parameter Expansions.  For a beginner-friendly intro,
please see .

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Pocket]

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 22, 2023, at 12:12 PM, Tixy  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 2023-10-21 at 17:13 -0400, Pocket wrote:
>> I am just using what was installed by my scripted debian installation
> 
> A day ago when people pointed out that Network Manager only gets
> installed if you select desktop install configuration, you denied that
> was true by saying "Well the default install for bookworm does install
> it and use it."
> 
> Now you admit you're using some kind of script to install Debian, I
> think it's very misleading to call that 'a default install'. If, you
> have a script you wrote or got from somewhere that installs software
> that you don't want why don't you change the script, or just uninstall
> Network Manager?
> 
> -- 
> tixy

Because I am working with what was installed, and I am using the internal 
network manager dhcp client.  Nothing else needs to be installed or configured.

Re: A file synchronization tool that respects hardlinks

[Michael Kjörling]

On 22 Oct 2023 17:40 +0300, from deb...@itayf.fastmail.fm (Itay):
> The sync must be bidirectional and *respect hardlinks* because many
> subdirs are kept under the control of darcs[1] which by default uses
> hardlinks. The sync tool I used in the past, unison[2], does not
> respect hardlinks[3].

What do you mean by "respect hardlinks"? To preserve the multiple
names as pointing to the same file system object (inode in classic
*nix parlace)?

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Pocket]

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 22, 2023, at 11:25 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 11:22:06AM -0400, Lee wrote:
>>> On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 4:24 PM Pocket wrote:
>>> 
>>> Ding ding ding we have a winner
>> 
>> Just out of curiosity, why didn't you use the example from
>> https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf and do
>> 
>> echo 'make_resolv_conf() { :; }' >
>> /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone
>> chmod 755 /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone
> 
> Does NetworkManager honour this? Or is that "just" a
> dhclient thing?
> 
Which is exactly what I ended up with.  Which turned out to be a better 
solution 

Re: A file synchronization tool that respects hardlinks

[Michael Kjörling]

On 22 Oct 2023 10:32 -0700, from dalgoda+deb...@gmail.com (Mike Castle):
> rsync supports hardlinks.
> 
> --hard-links, -H preserve hard links

It does, but on the other hand it's very hard to wrangle rsync into
doing safe bidirectional syncing. At least I didn't find a way to do
that, which led me to eventually settle on unison for where I need
bidirectional sync.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 08:22:24AM -0400, Pocket wrote:
> On 10/22/23 04:02, Max Nikulin wrote:
> > P.S. I do not see any reason to insist on NetworkManager in the case of
> > a box which role is a DNS server for a local network. ifupdown should be
> > sufficient. There is no need to detect cable plug/unplug events, to
> > switch between connection configurations depending on current location
> > or other circumstances.
> 
> I would normally not use NetworkManager on a server system either, but in
> this case NetworkManager is installed on all the bookworm installation so in
> this case I choose to work with it instead of removing it.

That's a reasonable choice but it is a choice you've made.
NetworkManager isn't any sort of default on Debian; it's a
dependency pulled in by something in your install script, so it's
just another choice you've made even if not explicitly.

There is no compelling reason why you should stick with
NetworkManager unless you want to or it's a hard dependency of
something else. If not then it would be fine to remove it and
achieve the same configuration in a simpler way with ifupdown,
netplan or systemd-networkd directly. A lot of people would consider
that a simpler and therefore more desirable setup if NetworkManager
was not otherwise required.

I realise that all this has been pointed out already in this thread,
but again here you've stated that NetworkManager is some sort of
default for Debian and that the implication as such is that it
should be worked with rather than removed. One is by no means
straying from the "main sequence" of Debian by removing
NetworkManager where no dependency exists.

I'm glad you have worked with it though, in order to find a solution
for the problem you were having, and communicated that with us.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: udev creates wrong symlink from rule after upgrade to bookworm

[peter]

Hi,

Appears that the failure reported by Karl Schmidt occurred when two 
devices matched the rule.
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1040445

Similar erroneous result here with only one matching device.  Details 
below.

Ideas?

Thx,   ... P.

=
In Debian 11.
root@imager:~# cat /etc/deb*ver*
11.8

root@imager:~# head -n 13 /etc/udev/rules.d/10* | tail -n 2
KERNEL=="sd?3", SUBSYSTEM=="block", ATTR{size}=="60028928", \
  SYMLINK+="AY", OWNER="root", GROUP="root", MODE="700"

root@imager:~# ls -ld /dev/A*
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Oct 22 07:00 /dev/AY -> sdb3

# That, ^, is the correct result.

In Debian 12.
root@imager:~# cat /etc/deb*ver*
12.2

root@imager:~# head -n 23 /etc/udev/rules.d/10* | tail -n 2
KERNEL=="sd?3", SUBSYSTEM=="block", ATTR{size}=="60028928", \ 
  SYMLINK+="A1", OWNER="root", GROUP="root", MODE="700"

root@imager:~# ls -ld /dev/A*
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Oct 22 06:53 /dev/A1 -> sda5

# That, ^, is the wrong result.  /dev/sda has no ATTR{size}=="60028928".

Simple tests similar to these reported by Karl and I are likely to 
produce failures in short order.

Failure of salient features impairs the appeal of Debian.  With 
removable storage routinely depending upon udev, successful operation 
really should be verified before a new Debian is released.

Regards,   ... Peter E.

- 
VoIP:   +1 604 670 0140
work: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:PeterEasthope

Re: A file synchronization tool that respects hardlinks

[Mike Castle]

rsync supports hardlinks.

--hard-links, -H preserve hard links

Though, in general, the purpose of something like darcs is to
*provide* the syncing.

mrc

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 11:22:06AM -0400, Lee wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, why didn't you use the example from
> https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf and do
> 
> echo 'make_resolv_conf() { :; }' >
> /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone
> chmod 755 /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone

Because that only affects isc-dhcp-client, and does nothing for other
DHCP clients, such as Network Manager.

Re: can you parse and "tail" at once? (and if you can't why not?)

[Charles Curley]

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 16:33:12 +
Albretch Mueller  wrote:

> After generating a file with lines of text, I have to:
>  1) parse some of those lines based on a pattern I know (no regex
> necessary, just a FS path)
>  2) once parsed from those lines I need the last n characters only
>  I am trying to use a one liner like:
>  cat "${IFL}" | grep "${DESC_DIR}" | tail -c+$_DESC_DIR
>  but this one liner repeats the output and the tail

Bash has built in operators to extract this sort of thing. Greg
Wooledge will know what they are called. Something like:

fspec="/exp/home1/abc.txt" 
filename="${fspec##*/}"  # get filename
dirname="${fspec%/*}" # get directory/path name

That doesn't do exactly what you want, but comes close.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 11:19, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 7:13 AM Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> wrote:



It's fairly recent (RFC 8375, May 2018) but this type of usage is
pretty much exactly what home.arpa is meant for.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8375


Chuckle. Looks like a solution looking for a problem. You can use 
whatever domainname that tickles your fancy when your net is in an 
un-routeable address block. just for S, and because a half G.S., half 
Coyote mix was the smartest "dog" I ever met, my home network domainname 
has been the "coyote.den" for 25 years now. "Lady" understood English 
and could do simple math, barking the number of times the answer was.



Thanks for that. I was not aware the domain was reserved.

Jeff



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Max Nikulin]

On 22/10/2023 19:22, Pocket wrote:

What version of NetworkManager is installed with bullseye?

Maybe a newer version is broken?


I upgraded this VM to bookworm months ago.

apt policy network-manager

network-manager:
  Installed: 1.42.4-1
  Candidate: 1.42.4-1
  Version table:
 *** 1.42.4-1 500
500 http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

My point was that it required some efforts to get an ethernet card be 
controlled by NetworkManager. Due to deprecation of isc-dhcp-client 
things may change in bookworm, but I do not see anything suspicious in 
output of "apt-cache showpkg network-manager".


I am curious which package pulled network-manager in your case

   aptitude why network-manager

or

   apt list '?narrow(~i, 
~DRecommends:~n^network-manager$|~D~n^network-manager$)'


In my case it is recommended by plasma-desktop.

can you parse and "tail" at once? (and if you can't why not?)

[Albretch Mueller]

 After generating a file with lines of text, I have to:
 1) parse some of those lines based on a pattern I know (no regex
necessary, just a FS path)
 2) once parsed from those lines I need the last n characters only
 I am trying to use a one liner like:
 cat "${IFL}" | grep "${DESC_DIR}" | tail -c+$_DESC_DIR
 but this one liner repeats the output and the tail

 Say the lines of text in IFL are:
[info] 123XYZ: 
/media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/Uppsala_Algebra/45_16.3_45MEB5h5H9Y.description
[info] 123XYZ: 
/media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/Uppsala_Algebra/46_17.1_LE_gl5RcDnY.description
[info] 123XYZ: 
/media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/Göttsche/17_9jKzwoBGFs8.description
[info] 123XYZ: 
/media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/Göttsche/18_plOUIOo91lI.description
[info] 123XYZ: 
/media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/Göttsche/19_TJ7yAiq8gEw.description
[info] 123XYZ: 
/media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/Göttsche/20_UMBEgb14uqw.description

 I know the prefix:
[info] 123XYZ: /media/user/1234qwer/Algebraic_Geometry04/20231022040239/

 I need as output:

Uppsala_Algebra/45_16.3_45MEB5h5H9Y
Uppsala_Algebra/46_17.1_LE_gl5RcDnY
Göttsche/17_9jKzwoBGFs8
Göttsche/18_plOUIOo91lI
Göttsche/19_TJ7yAiq8gEw
Göttsche/20_UMBEgb14uqw
~
 lbrtchx

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 11:02, Henning Follmann wrote:

On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 01:24:21PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 01:08:58PM -0400, Pocket wrote:


On 10/21/23 12:49, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 12:23:45PM -0400, Pocket wrote:

I want NetworkManager to not over write /etc/resolv.conf

https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf


openresolv or resolvconf is not installed

no dhcp client is running only networkmanager is installed/running



Well, NM is a dhcp client, technically.


making /etc/resolv.conf immutable is not the answer


If you're asking us to tell you how to *make NetWorkManager behave*
then you might be frustrated.  Most of the people on this mailing list
don't use it.  There are some who actively despise it, and go out of
their way to ensure it's never installed.  (Those people are a small
minority, but they're definitely here.)  So, in all likelihood, nobody
here might know that answer.


Well, that is not true. I think for a desktop NM is the right tool for most
users.
Some of these statements are based of past issues which mostly are
resolved these days.



If you believe NM is not behaving according to its documentation, then
file a bug report.


I did that decades ago, and was ignored. I don't even have the bugzilla 
number cuz of seagates crappy 2T drives failing in a month taking first 
my backups, then then a couple days later the main drive in this 
machine, forcing a bookworm install that took 22 damned installs to get 
rid of orca and brltty cuz the installer found a serial-usb adaptor and 
assumed I was blind. They are used for a lot of ups's and for X10 stuff 
that have nothing to do with hearing loss.


Yes true,

But I would assume that the initial question points to the real problem
here.

I assume you have some special requirments for your DNS resolver and you
just put specific dns resolver in your /etc/resolcv.conf

You all have given me a hard time over this, but I have a nearly 35 year 
history with hosts files which work for such as my home network at an 
address block 192.168.nnn.nnn that is not relayed thru a router.


So that means my whole network is not net accessible without NAT in the 
router which has been running dd-wrt forever. My whole home net has no 
dhcp server, host files do it all.


NM, and avahi, seems to want to assign a default route in the 169 block 
if it cannot find a dns server, but until recently that default route 
has been the biggest PITA ever foisted of on us linux users. You cannot 
get out of your T-shirt pocket for any reason, and getting rid of it 
seems to be a big secret, no one has yet answered. So we put a 
nameserver address pointing to the routers local address in resolv.conf 
and quickly make it immutable before NM has a chance to screw it up. 
Then a suitable entry in /e/n/interfaces usually results in a ping -c1 
yahoo.com that just works.


NM's purpose seems to be is to jump thru dhcp hoops a host file user 
does not need, so I put the router as a default nameserver in 
/etc/resolv.conf and make it immutable, which router I think is running 
dnsmasq, so if the name isn't cached there, dnsmasq forwards the request 
to my isp's server which is supposedly up to date. I can ping any named 
& registered site on this ball of rock and water, usually in less than 
30 milliseconds unless its to Ulan Bator. IF I can prevent NM and avahi 
from assigning a totally bogus 169. route, it just works. Until that 
stops, neither is welcome for the initial install on my premises.


Once I have networking working, then cups might need avahi. but _NOT_ 
before the rest of my network is up and running. And every machine on my 
local net can browse the world with FF.


So please tell me again what NM is supposed to do for /me/?

Thank you.


There might be better ways with NM to manually specify your dns server.


Each network connection stanza can be individually configured based on your
location requirements. I would look into the documentation to solve the
issue the "NM way" and not come up with some hack and then fight the NM.

-H



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Tixy]

On Sat, 2023-10-21 at 17:13 -0400, Pocket wrote:
> I am just using what was installed by my scripted debian installation

A day ago when people pointed out that Network Manager only gets
installed if you select desktop install configuration, you denied that
was true by saying "Well the default install for bookworm does install
it and use it."

Now you admit you're using some kind of script to install Debian, I
think it's very misleading to call that 'a default install'. If, you
have a script you wrote or got from somewhere that installs software
that you don't want why don't you change the script, or just uninstall
Network Manager?

-- 
tixy

Re: cli_ how to find_ firefox versions available in all suites

[జిందం వాఐి]

On 22/10/2023, Max Nikulin wrote:
The rmadison CLI tool may query repositories that are not in 
sources.list.


* rmadison is part of devscripts
* apt install devscripts
* it works like charm
* uncommented testing, unstable,
experimental from my sources.list
[ no need now ]

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Lee]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 11:25 AM  wrote:
>
> On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 11:22:06AM -0400, Lee wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 4:24 PM Pocket wrote:
> > >
> > > Ding ding ding we have a winner
> >
> > Just out of curiosity, why didn't you use the example from
> > https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf and do
> >
> > echo 'make_resolv_conf() { :; }' >
> > /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone
> > chmod 755 /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone
>
> Does NetworkManager honour this? Or is that "just" a
> dhclient thing?

I don't know.

my /etc/network/interfaces has
iface enp1s0 inet6 dhcp

and my /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/Wired\ connection\ 1 has
[ipv6]
addr-gen-mode=eui64
dns-search=
ip6-privacy=0
method=dhcp

but /etc/network/interfaces over-rides /etc/NetworkManager - correct?
So maybe I'm just using dhclient and have no idea if this works for
NetworkManager or not. .

Lee

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[tomas]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 11:22:06AM -0400, Lee wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 4:24 PM Pocket wrote:
> >
> > Ding ding ding we have a winner
> 
> Just out of curiosity, why didn't you use the example from
> https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf and do
> 
> echo 'make_resolv_conf() { :; }' >
> /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone
> chmod 755 /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone

Does NetworkManager honour this? Or is that "just" a
dhclient thing?

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Lee]

On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 4:24 PM Pocket wrote:
>
> Ding ding ding we have a winner

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you use the example from
https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf and do

echo 'make_resolv_conf() { :; }' >
/etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone
chmod 755 /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/leave_my_resolv_conf_alone

Are you using NTP?  If yes, how are you keeping dhcp from over-writing
your ntp.conf?
I had to comment out the "ntp_servers_setup" line in
/etc/dhcp/dhclient-exit-hooks.d/ntp to keep dhcp from messing up my
list of ntp servers.

Regards,
Lee


>
> cat /etc/resolv.conf
> # Generated by NetworkManager
> search example.org
> nameserver 127.0.0.1
> nameserver ::1
> options edns0 trust-ad
>
> This make this work
>
> sudo cat /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf
> [main]
> plugins=ifupdown,keyfile
>
> [ifupdown]
> managed=false
>
> [device]
> wifi.scan-rand-mac-address=no
>
> [global-dns]
> searches=example.org
> options=edns0 trust-ad
>
> cat /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/Wired\ connection\ 1.nmconnection
> [connection]
> id=Wired connection 1
> uuid=fe51b7a9-f0a9-32b9-ba1d-7a4dd08d0718
> type=ethernet
> autoconnect-priority=-999
> interface-name=end0
> timestamp=1697818643
>
> [ethernet]
>
> [ipv4]
> dns=127.0.0.1;
> dns-search=example.org;
> ignore-auto-dns=true
> method=auto
>
> [ipv6]
> addr-gen-mode=default
> dns=::1;
> dns-search=example.org;
> ignore-auto-dns=true
> method=auto
> [proxy]
>
> [.nmmeta]
> nm-generated=true

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 7:13 AM Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> wrote:
>
> On 21 Oct 2023 17:13 -0400, from poc...@columbus.rr.com (Pocket):
> > Why would I register a domain name for an internal network?
> > Any name will do.  You could make the same argument if you just
> > makeup a domain to use as it could already be registered or someone
> > my register it in the future.
> > That is why I picked example.org as It will/can not be used, no
> > collision with domain names that way.
>
> It's fairly recent (RFC 8375, May 2018) but this type of usage is
> pretty much exactly what home.arpa is meant for.
>
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8375

Thanks for that. I was not aware the domain was reserved.

Jeff

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Henning Follmann]

On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 01:24:21PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 01:08:58PM -0400, Pocket wrote:
> > 
> > On 10/21/23 12:49, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 12:23:45PM -0400, Pocket wrote:
> > > > I want NetworkManager to not over write /etc/resolv.conf
> > > https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf
> > > 
> > openresolv or resolvconf is not installed
> > 
> > no dhcp client is running only networkmanager is installed/running
> > 

Well, NM is a dhcp client, technically.

> > making /etc/resolv.conf immutable is not the answer
> 
> If you're asking us to tell you how to *make NetWorkManager behave*
> then you might be frustrated.  Most of the people on this mailing list
> don't use it.  There are some who actively despise it, and go out of
> their way to ensure it's never installed.  (Those people are a small
> minority, but they're definitely here.)  So, in all likelihood, nobody
> here might know that answer.

Well, that is not true. I think for a desktop NM is the right tool for most
users.
Some of these statements are based of past issues which mostly are
resolved these days.

> 
> If you believe NM is not behaving according to its documentation, then
> file a bug report.

Yes true,

But I would assume that the initial question points to the real problem
here.

I assume you have some special requirments for your DNS resolver and you
just put specific dns resolver in your /etc/resolcv.conf

There might be better ways with NM to manually specify your dns server.


Each network connection stanza can be individually configured based on your
location requirements. I would look into the documentation to solve the
issue the "NM way" and not come up with some hack and then fight the NM.

-H

-- 
Henning Follmann   | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Dan Ritter]

Pocket wrote: 
> 
> On 10/22/23 08:32, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Pocket wrote:
> > > I am just using what was installed by my scripted debian installation
> > Who provided the script?


You skipped the most important question.

-dsr-

Re: AW: Panic again any idea

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 12:21:53PM +, Schwibinger Michael wrote:
> 
> Good afternoon
> 
> 
> Thank You
> 
> Here is the bug report:
> 
> https://ibb.co/1fDc8yQ
> Upload Image — Free Image Hosting
> Free image hosting and sharing service, upload pictures, photo host. Offers 
> integration solutions for uploading images to forums.
> ibb.co
> 
> 
> Regards
> Sophie
> 
> 

Hi Sophie,

That image doesn't exist, seemingly. Please give us details of what
exactly is wrong. If need be, take a photo with a phone and give us
the text of the error message.

Andy

amaca...@debian.org
> 
> 
> Von: to...@tuxteam.de
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. Oktober 2023 12:28
> Bis: Schwibinger Michael
> Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Betreff: Re: Panic again any idea
> 
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 08:49:21AM +, Schwibinger Michael wrote:
> > Good morning
> > I did ask one year ago
> > but no answer here or in the www.
> > Debian has panic(=no booting) after update to 11.
> > Thank You for help
> 
> Please write *EXACTLY* error message here.
> --
> t

A file synchronization tool that respects hardlinks

[Itay]

Hi

I have two machines for which I need to sync my home directory.
The sync must be bidirectional and *respect hardlinks* because many subdirs are 
kept under the control of darcs[1] which by default uses hardlinks.  The sync 
tool I used in the past, unison[2], does not respect hardlinks[3].

According to wikipedia[4] the following tools are bidirectional:
 FreeFileSync / NextCloud / Owncloud / SyncThing
Please -- can someone quickly tell me if they respect hardlinks?
Or recommend another tool(s) that respect hardlinks?

Thanks in advance.
Itay

[1] darcs.net/
[2] www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/
[3] See manual, page 18, top.
 raw.githubusercontent.com/bcpierce00/unison/documentation/unison-manual.pdf
[4] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_synchronization_software

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[tomas]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 01:51:41PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

[...]

> Originally it did only put out text in an xterm, but then i shamelessly
> exploited code from the exploitation chain xpppload <- xisdnload <- xload
> to give it a histogram in ain additional separate window.

Now this one beats my weirdness by a stretch :-)

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[tomas]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 07:50:54AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2023-10-22 at 07:24, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > I better not tell. My clock is a... shell script in a tiny Xterm
> > which also shows my battery status.
> 
> Ooo, that sounds interesting. I don't currently have a laptop, so the
> battery-status part wouldn't currently apply, but this sounds like
> something I might like to try when that changes; any chance of sharing
> the specific details?

Glad to oblige.

The date part is the smallest, down there in the lower right
corner :-)


tomas@trotzki:~$ cat ~/bin/bat
#!/bin/bash
# Notes:
# for colors:
# tput setaf 1 ; tput bold ; echo -n 123 ; tput setaf 7 ; tput sgr0 ; echo 456
# cf tput(1) terminfo(5)
# do continuous mode with watch -c, possibly t

BAT='/sys/class/power_supply/BAT0'
AC='/sys/class/power_supply/AC'
FULL=$(cat $BAT/energy_full)
NOW=$(cat $BAT/energy_now)
case $(cat $AC/online) in
  0) online="BAT" ;;
  1) online="AC " ;;
  *) online="???" ;;
esac
echo -ne "$online " ; dc -e "5k $NOW $FULL / p" ; date +"%F%a%n  %T"


The fun part is convincing fvwm  to do its thing:


# Style for bat, clock:
Style bat !Borders,!Handles,!Title

# NOTES if text too big, nothing to be seen;
#   watch -t: no title;
#   the -geometry is there to place the window off screen while it's
#   not yet swallowed.
#   Can we change colors? Yeah: watch lets 'em through with option -c
*FvwmButtons: (2x1, Frame 2, \
  Swallow bat "Exec exec xterm -class bat -bg black -fg white \
  -geometry +5000+5000 \
  -fn 'xft:DejaVu Sans Mono Book:pixelsize=7' \
  -e watch -tn 10 bat" )


Enjoy :)

I've been mulling around whether to switch to Tcl/Tk: I like the
unobtrusiveness of the thing, but some more noise when the battery
is on its last legs would be desirable :-)

> > But I'm weird.
> 
> I literally used to go by "Weird" as a nickname, though (sadly?) it
> never became as commonly used as with Al. Weird doesn't bother me at
> all.

A good feeling not to be alone around here ;-)

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Michael Kjörling]

On 22 Oct 2023 08:22 -0400, from poc...@columbus.rr.com (Pocket):
> What version of NetworkManager is installed with bullseye?

https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/network-manager

https://tracker.debian.org/network-manager

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: example.org and other RFC 2606 domains; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Michael Kjörling]

On 22 Oct 2023 08:42 -0400, from poc...@columbus.rr.com (Pocket):
> I get that, I have used example.org for more than 20 years and at the time I
> began using it things were different.

It has been reserved for its current purpose at least since June 1999
(that's the publication date of RFC 2606), and per whois the current
registration dates back to August 1995.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Dan Ritter]

Pocket wrote: 
>The Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) also currently has the
>following second level domain names reserved which can be used as
>examples.
> 
> example.com
> example.net
> example.org
> 
> Which I take it that you can use them for any purpose as long as it is not on 
> the internet

No, they are for examples. In documentation. Any system
encountering one of those names in real life can and probably
should assume that it is unconfigured or in a lab where terrible
things could happen without affecting anyone.


 
> Why would I register a domain name for an internal network?

You shouldn't. home.arpa is already a special-use domain for
that purpose.

If you happen to have a domain name for any other purpose, you
could establish a subdomain for your internal use, just by
configuring it. Or you could use split DNS to show different
views to the inside and outside.


 
> So I can not use or I am forbidden to use 192.168.1.0/24 network as it is 
> reserved?

On the contrary, it is reserved so that you (and everyone else)
can use it for this particular purpose. But it is also your
responsibility to remember not to let that subnet leak outside
of your internal network, and to accept that other people are
using it in a similar manner.
 
 
> I am just using what was installed by my scripted debian installation

Who provided the script?


> I could have built my own "router" with my own custom scratch built OS as I
> did starting 35 years ago, but why should I if I can get something off the
> shelf?

You can get a computer pre-configured with Windows or Mac OS off
the shelf. Why did you decide to install Linux?


The answers to the two questions are likely similar, if not
identical.


-dsr-

-- 
https://randomstring.org/~dsr/eula.html is hereby incorporated by reference.
there is no justice, there is just us.

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Pocket]

On 10/22/23 08:36, mick.crane wrote:

On 2023-10-22 13:22, Pocket wrote:


I would normally not use NetworkManager on a server system either, but
in this case NetworkManager is installed on all the bookworm
installation so in this case I choose to work with it instead of
removing it.


It maybe comes with the desktop thing.
With Bookworm I selected xfce only and network-manager was installed.
Out of interest I put static address in /etc/network/interfaces
and purged network-manager and network-manager-gnome.
and seemed happy.

mick



In my case no desktop is installed on this particular system that I want 
to use as a server.


I have no idea what pulled NetworkManager in and really don't want to 
find out.  All I know is that the script I use to install debian causes 
it to be pulled in, so in this case I chose to use what was installed 
rather than to rip it out and put something else in it's place.


I used the same script for bullseye and it has ifupdown and dhcpcd.  Go 
figure?


--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Pocket]

On 10/22/23 08:32, Dan Ritter wrote:

Pocket wrote:

The Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) also currently has the
following second level domain names reserved which can be used as
examples.

 example.com
 example.net
 example.org

Which I take it that you can use them for any purpose as long as it is not on 
the internet

No, they are for examples. In documentation. Any system
encountering one of those names in real life can and probably
should assume that it is unconfigured or in a lab where terrible
things could happen without affecting anyone.


  


I get that, I have used example.org for more than 20 years and at the 
time I began using it things were different.




Why would I register a domain name for an internal network?

You shouldn't. home.arpa is already a special-use domain for
that purpose.

If you happen to have a domain name for any other purpose, you
could establish a subdomain for your internal use, just by
configuring it. Or you could use split DNS to show different
views to the inside and outside.



Yes, I am researching that, but for now I need to get the bookworm 
installs "stable" in my environment, which btw I am almost there



  

So I can not use or I am forbidden to use 192.168.1.0/24 network as it is 
reserved?

On the contrary, it is reserved so that you (and everyone else)
can use it for this particular purpose. But it is also your
responsibility to remember not to let that subnet leak outside
of your internal network, and to accept that other people are
using it in a similar manner.



I understand that, what I posted was a dig.


  
  

I am just using what was installed by my scripted debian installation

Who provided the script?



I could have built my own "router" with my own custom scratch built OS as I
did starting 35 years ago, but why should I if I can get something off the
shelf?

You can get a computer pre-configured with Windows or Mac OS off
the shelf. Why did you decide to install Linux?



Because I no longer want to spend the time and resource to roll my own 
and I don't do windows.






The answers to the two questions are likely similar, if not
identical.


-dsr-





--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Pocket]

On 10/22/23 01:24, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 03:29:40PM -0400, Pocket wrote:

On 10/21/23 15:02, Stefan Monnier wrote:

I agree about that on most machines, but the machine in question has bind
running so nameserver needs to be set to 127.0.0.1 and the domain to
example.org in the resolv.conf file.

Beware: at this rate, you may end up giving us enough info about what
you're doing for us to actually help you.

I think you're still safe (e.g., you're still keeping us in the dark
about why you run bind on "this machine" yet you also want it to receive
"IPs and DNS info" from some other dhcp server, or otherwise keeping us
confused about which machine is which), but you're playing
a dangerous game.


  Stefan


I need to run a dns server on this network and I want to get the ip and
routing info from a dhcp server.

For this machine I don't need the dns info from the dhcp server.

OK. And the server is sending the DNS info unrequested? Or is your
DHCP client (whoever that is) asking for it?

Furthermore: if your DHCP client is dhclient, there are hooks for
you to configure things in /etc/dhcp/dhclient-{enter,exit}-hooks.d

Cheers


The dhcp client is NetworkManager.

It is request a new lease as it should

Oct 22 03:59:35 gremlin NetworkManager[664]:  [1697961575.2993] 
dhcp4 (end0): state changed new lease, address=192.168.1.3


--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[mick.crane]

On 2023-10-22 13:22, Pocket wrote:


I would normally not use NetworkManager on a server system either, but
in this case NetworkManager is installed on all the bookworm
installation so in this case I choose to work with it instead of
removing it.


It maybe comes with the desktop thing.
With Bookworm I selected xfce only and network-manager was installed.
Out of interest I put static address in /etc/network/interfaces
and purged network-manager and network-manager-gnome.
and seemed happy.

mick

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Pocket]

On 10/22/23 07:13, Michael Kjörling wrote:

On 21 Oct 2023 17:13 -0400, from poc...@columbus.rr.com (Pocket):

Why would I register a domain name for an internal network?
Any name will do.  You could make the same argument if you just
makeup a domain to use as it could already be registered or someone
my register it in the future.
That is why I picked example.org as It will/can not be used, no
collision with domain names that way.

It's fairly recent (RFC 8375, May 2018) but this type of usage is
pretty much exactly what home.arpa is meant for.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8375


I am researching this as I am aware that things have changed from 20 years ago 
and with ipv6 adoption


--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Pocket]

On 10/22/23 04:02, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 22/10/2023 00:24, Greg Wooledge wrote:
If you're asking us to tell you how to *make NetWorkManager behave* 
then you might be frustrated. Most of the people on this mailing list 
don't use it. There are some who actively despise it, and go out of 
their way to ensure it's never installed.


I just have tried with

/etc/NetworkManager/conf.d/90-disable-resovl.conf

[main]
dns=none

in a VM and it just works. I edited /etc/resolv.conf and 
NetworkManager does not override it. I have no idea what is wrong in 
Pocket's case, perhaps a typo or another config file with higher 
priority. I would check


What version of NetworkManager is installed with bullseye?

Maybe a newer version is broken?




    NetworkManager --print-config



Didn't show me anything unexpected.



This particular instance was installed as bullseye in minimal 
configuration. NetworkManager was added later and enp0s2 originally 
was managed by ifupdown. I edited /etc/network/interfaces to allow 
NetworkManager to take control of it. Later it was upgraded to bookworm.


Overriding DNS servers for each connection is another viable approach.

I admit that NetworkManager has issues and limitations, its GUI 
applets have even more bugs and expose quite limited set of 
preferences, but this tool still works in simple cases and convenient 
in the case of laptops.


P.S. I do not see any reason to insist on NetworkManager in the case 
of a box which role is a DNS server for a local network. ifupdown 
should be sufficient. There is no need to detect cable plug/unplug 
events, to switch between connection configurations depending on 
current location or other circumstances.


I would normally not use NetworkManager on a server system either, but 
in this case NetworkManager is installed on all the bookworm 
installation so in this case I choose to work with it instead of 
removing it.




--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[The Wanderer]

On 2023-10-22 at 07:24, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> I better not tell. My clock is a... shell script in a tiny Xterm
> which also shows my battery status.

Ooo, that sounds interesting. I don't currently have a laptop, so the
battery-status part wouldn't currently apply, but this sounds like
something I might like to try when that changes; any chance of sharing
the specific details?

> But I'm weird.

I literally used to go by "Weird" as a nickname, though (sadly?) it
never became as commonly used as with Al. Weird doesn't bother me at
all.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> My clock is a... shell script in a tiny Xterm which
> also shows my battery status.

My digital clock with date display is a C program which mainly watches the
network traffic. It even has an own date format ("A0" = 2000, now is "C3")
which has an odd history beginning in 1987, when nobody expected to live
to see year 2000.
  http://scdbackup.webframe.org/pppoem

Originally it did only put out text in an xterm, but then i shamelessly
exploited code from the exploitation chain xpppload <- xisdnload <- xload
to give it a histogram in ain additional separate window.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Default DNS lookup command?

[Richard Hector]

On 22/10/23 04:56, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 05:35:21PM +0200, Reiner Buehl wrote:

is there a DNS lookup command that is installed by default on any Debian


getent hosts NAME
getent ahostsv4 NAME

That said, you get much finer control from dedicated tools.



That is a useful tool I should remember.

But not strictly a DNS lookup tool:

richard@zircon:~$ getent hosts zircon
127.0.1.1   zircon.lan.walnut.gen.nz zircon

That's from my /etc/hosts file, and overrides DNS. I didn't see an 
option in the manpage to ignore /etc/hosts.


I haven't found a way to get just DNS results, without pulling in extra 
software.


Richard

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[tomas]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 11:16:25AM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Charlie wrote:
> > I removed the clock from the
> > FVWM task bar and Gkrellm now dis[pays the right time. So a fix
> > of sorts with which I can live.
> 
> Congrats. :))
> 
> 
> > being a bit long in
> > the tooth to start relearning another window manager.
> 
> I'm using fvwm since the last century. It's configured by a ~/.fvwm2rc
> which is at least 20 years old with minor changes to adapt to changed
> paths and to avoid some unwanted behavior from 10 years ago.

I came back to it some time last century, after a very instructive
travel which encompassed Gnome (Metacity), Xfce, Awesome and other
exotica (olwm, GWM...)

> My clock is FvwmXclock. It's an analog-style 12 hours without date
> display.

I better not tell. My clock is a... shell script in a tiny Xterm which
also shows my battery status.

But I'm weird.

> Have a nice day :)

Likewise :)

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Michael Kjörling]

On 21 Oct 2023 17:13 -0400, from poc...@columbus.rr.com (Pocket):
> Why would I register a domain name for an internal network?
> Any name will do.  You could make the same argument if you just
> makeup a domain to use as it could already be registered or someone
> my register it in the future.
> That is why I picked example.org as It will/can not be used, no
> collision with domain names that way.

It's fairly recent (RFC 8375, May 2018) but this type of usage is
pretty much exactly what home.arpa is meant for.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8375

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Charlie wrote:
> I removed the clock from the
> FVWM task bar and Gkrellm now dis[pays the right time. So a fix
> of sorts with which I can live.

Congrats. :))


> being a bit long in
> the tooth to start relearning another window manager.

I'm using fvwm since the last century. It's configured by a ~/.fvwm2rc
which is at least 20 years old with minor changes to adapt to changed
paths and to avoid some unwanted behavior from 10 years ago.

My clock is FvwmXclock. It's an analog-style 12 hours without date
display.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[Charlie]

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 10:13:59 +0200
"Thomas Schmitt"  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Charlie wrote:
> > The date on that system is one day in advance and one hour late. Not
> > terrible,
> > However after a short period 100% of one of the CPU cores is used,
> > noisy running, and top -c shows this as the user:
> > /usr/libexe/fvwm2/2.7.0/FvwmScript 17 4 none 0 8 FvwmScript
> > DateTime  
> 
> Looking at
>   
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/fvwmorg/fvwm3/main/default-config/FvwmScript-DateTime
> and reading "man FvwmScript" i'd say that the promised 1-second
> waiting period of "PeriodicTasks" is heavily shortened by the clock
> peculiarity.
> 
> 
> > Managed to get date and time right with the ntp commands, set
> > location etc., on Gkrellm at least. But the fvwm clock had frozen
> > up and stopped.  
> 
> That's quite normal with periodic jobs when the system time gets
> changed backward. Possibly the clock would come back to life after
> the last shown time is reached again 23 hours later.
> 
> 
> > Then tried to set the date manually with hwclock but no joy.  
> 
> Please detail "no joy":
> Does hwclock show the future time after rebooting if you have set it
> to the right time before rebooting ?
> (Or is it only the system clock which hops ahead ?)
> Does hwclock get changed to the future time without rebooting ?
> 
> 
> > Removing FvwmScript which I can't open to edit removes the clock
> > from the FVWM taskbar,  
> 
> Does this solve the problem with the future time ?
> 
> 
> > And haven't tried to
> > but Gkrellm is now using the same time?  
> 
> (I don't understand this statement. Maybe it's important for finding
> the explanation.)
> 
> 
> > It would appear to be an fvwm problem  
> 
> The fast running CPU might be related to poor handling of weird times
> by FvwmScript.
> 
> But for now i doubt that fvwm sets the system date on its own.
> 
> 
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas
> 

Thank you for the link Thomas. I removed the clock from the
FVWM task bar and Gkrellm now dis[pays the right time. So a fix
of sorts with which I can live.

I was going to install fluxbox, which I used many years ago before FVWM
just to see what that clock said. Luckily didn't need to because the
clock came up correct. Dreaded doing that anyway, being a bit long in
the tooth to start relearning another window manager.

So thank you for your help.
Charlie

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Charlie wrote:
> The date on that system is one day in advance and one hour late. Not
> terrible,
> However after a short period 100% of one of the CPU cores is used,
> noisy running, and top -c shows this as the user:
> /usr/libexe/fvwm2/2.7.0/FvwmScript 17 4 none 0 8 FvwmScript DateTime

Looking at
  
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/fvwmorg/fvwm3/main/default-config/FvwmScript-DateTime
and reading "man FvwmScript" i'd say that the promised 1-second waiting
period of "PeriodicTasks" is heavily shortened by the clock peculiarity.


> Managed to get date and time right with the ntp commands, set location
> etc., on Gkrellm at least. But the fvwm clock had frozen up and stopped.

That's quite normal with periodic jobs when the system time gets changed
backward. Possibly the clock would come back to life after the last shown
time is reached again 23 hours later.


> Then tried to set the date manually with hwclock but no joy.

Please detail "no joy":
Does hwclock show the future time after rebooting if you have set it to
the right time before rebooting ?
(Or is it only the system clock which hops ahead ?)
Does hwclock get changed to the future time without rebooting ?


> Removing FvwmScript which I can't open to edit removes the clock from
> the FVWM taskbar,

Does this solve the problem with the future time ?


> And haven't tried to
> but Gkrellm is now using the same time?

(I don't understand this statement. Maybe it's important for finding the
explanation.)


> It would appear to be an fvwm problem

The fast running CPU might be related to poor handling of weird times
by FvwmScript.

But for now i doubt that fvwm sets the system date on its own.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Max Nikulin]

On 22/10/2023 00:24, Greg Wooledge wrote:
If you're asking us to tell you how to *make NetWorkManager behave* then 
you might be frustrated. Most of the people on this mailing list don't 
use it. There are some who actively despise it, and go out of their way 
to ensure it's never installed.


I just have tried with

/etc/NetworkManager/conf.d/90-disable-resovl.conf

[main]
dns=none

in a VM and it just works. I edited /etc/resolv.conf and NetworkManager 
does not override it. I have no idea what is wrong in Pocket's case, 
perhaps a typo or another config file with higher priority. I would check


NetworkManager --print-config

This particular instance was installed as bullseye in minimal 
configuration. NetworkManager was added later and enp0s2 originally was 
managed by ifupdown. I edited /etc/network/interfaces to allow 
NetworkManager to take control of it. Later it was upgraded to bookworm.


Overriding DNS servers for each connection is another viable approach.

I admit that NetworkManager has issues and limitations, its GUI applets 
have even more bugs and expose quite limited set of preferences, but 
this tool still works in simple cases and convenient in the case of laptops.


P.S. I do not see any reason to insist on NetworkManager in the case of 
a box which role is a DNS server for a local network. ifupdown should be 
sufficient. There is no need to detect cable plug/unplug events, to 
switch between connection configurations depending on current location 
or other circumstances.

Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[Charlie]

Hello All,

Have a a Dell Vostro laptop: Bookworm up to date and
upgraded operating system to that state. Using FVWM window
manager.

The date on that system is one day in advance and one hour late. Not
terrible,

However after a short period 100% of one of the CPU cores is used,
noisy running, and top -c shows this as the user:
/usr/libexe/fvwm2/2.7.0/FvwmScript 17 4 none 0 8 FvwmScript DateTime

Managed to get date and time right with the ntp commands, set location
etc., on Gkrellm at least. But the fvwm clock had frozen up and stopped.

On reboot went back to a day ahead and an hour late even on Gkrellm.

Then tried to set the date manually with hwclock but no joy.

Removing FvwmScript which I can't open to edit removes the clock from
the FVWM taskbar, if that is what it is called. And haven't tried to
but Gkrellm is now using the same time?

It would appear to be an fvwm problem so I may be wise to move to
another window manager. However thought I would ask here first, in case
someone had the same problem or some clue to solve it.

TIA
Charlie

[disclaimer]

Any replies from me may be late because, can not afford to run my
generator all day.

[end disclaimer]
-- 
Registered Linux User:- 329524
***

I scarcely remember counting upon any Happiness—I look not for
it if it be not in the present hour—nothing startles me beyond
the Moment. The setting sun will always set me to rights—or if
a Sparrow come before my Window I take part in its existence
and pick about the Gravel. JOHN KEATS

***
Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic
___