Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
Hi Marco, thanks for taking the time to reply. Am Tue, 22 Aug 2023 20:24:39 +0200 schrieb Marco Möller : > Having had the same problem to solve for myself I ended up to use: > Noto sans for all my GUI > Liberation Mono for coding The "Noto Sans" has an almost identical glyph for the capital 'i' and the small 'L'. It's just a straight line and as such doesn't solve my problem. Christoph
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
On 19.08.23 21:19, Christoph K. wrote: Could you please recommend a "suitable" sans-serif font that a) (...) b) (...) c) (...) d) (...) Thanks, Christoph Having had the same problem to solve for myself I ended up to use: Noto sans for all my GUI Liberation Mono for coding Especially the "Liberation Mono" font is nicely readable for avoiding any letter misunderstanding when coding, and I tested much more problematic cases than only T71Iil15So0QOUuwWMNmn (this are just the ones I spontaneously remember). There are more Liberation fonts, but I didn't check them out. "Noto sans", which I selected already before for the GUI decorations, was already clear enough for that purpose. Good luck! Marco
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
On Sat, Aug 19, 2023 at 09:19:48PM +0200, Christoph K. wrote: Could you please recommend a "suitable" sans-serif font that A lot of your criteria are rather subjective. For packaged fonts you might look at "hack" (https://source-foundry.github.io/Hack/font-specimen.html) or "go" (https://go.dev/blog/go-fonts) There's also the not-packaged https://github.com/intel/intel-one-mono But you'd have to be the judge of what you like the look of.
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
On Mon Aug 21 16:23:25 2023 "Christoph K." wrote: > Am Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:41:04 + > schrieb "Russell L. Harris" : > >> On the 3, 5, 6, and 9, open the end of the loops, and shorten the >> horizontal stroke on top of the 5 so the 5 is not mistaken for an S. >> Always put horizontal strokes on I. Make the 1 with a flag on the >> upper end and put a horizontal stroke on the 7, German-style. My >> handwriting is a odd mixture of cursive script and printing. > > Thanks for sharing! > > Really interesting ... I'm already implementing all of these "rules". > I learnt to write the 7 in German style because I live in Germany ;-) Here on the west coast of Canada the stroke through the 7 isn't too common, although I do see it from time to time. I avoid it because it makes a 7 look like certain script forms of the letter F (see the Fender guitar logo, for instance). > We also learned to put a "flag" on the 1 in school. I was surprised to > see other people don't. To me it's quite confusing to see 1 just as a > straight line. When I was 8 years old I started writing the numeral 1 with the "flag". I quickly stopped, because everyone confused it with 7. This leaves the lower-case L. It was a long time before this became a problem, either because I didn't use them frequently or because readers could figure it out from context. (This was in my pre-computer days.) Now if there's a potential problem I'll put a little hook on the bottom, similar to many computer fonts. The vertical bar... well, I'll either make it noticeably taller than other characters on the line, or I'll write nearby 1s with both a flag and a bottom line. It's a bit of a compromise that I deal with on an individual basis. > I don't remember when I startet to put bars on the 'I', probably > during my studies of electrical engineering when we used lots of > formulas. I think I used them right from the beginning, so that wasn't a problem. > I also have a "mixed handwriting" with some ligatures (for example on > the double 'l'). For the small 's' I use two different glyphs (not on > purpose) that usually depend on my mood. For a long time I wasn't even > aware I was doing this :-) Interesting. I went through something like that when I started cursive writing. When writing a contraction I'd write the whole word and then go back and place the apostrophe between the appropriate two letters - except when writing "o'clock", where for some reason I would leave a break after the "o". Go figure. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse. \ /| It can be beautiful - X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't. / \ if you read it the right way. |-- Lily Tomlin
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote: > Cindy Sue Causey wrote: >> My own mind went to the place of thinking sans serif was about those >> very lines. I just didn't make it to thinking that would make it hard >> to find any alternate in that family. My long time preference is >> developer-weary-eye-friendly fonts-anonymous-pro for whatever >> applications will accept it. Found it accidentally a few years ago. >> Its differences are noticeable enough that I instantly miss it on new >> operating system installs. The "apt-cache show" description for >> fonts-anonymous-pro specifically references both 0 v. O and I v. l v. >> 1: "Description-en: fixed width font designed for coders This package >> contains two Font Families. - Anonymous Pro - Anonomous Pro Minus . >> 'Anonymous Pro' is a family of four fixed-width fonts designed >> especially with coding in mind. Characters that could be mistaken for >> one another (O, 0, I, l, 1, etc.) have distinct shapes to make them >> easier to tell apart in the context of source code. > Terminal fonts tend to be fixed width since that's a property of > terminals. Fixed width fonts tend to have serifs because it's easier > to make the spacing look more even between inherently narrow > characters and inherently wide ones using details like serifs. So > finding a sans serif font amongst terminal fonts is likely a difficult > cause. The font I have in Gnome terminal is called 'Monospace'. It doesn't have serifs generally, but there is on I and l, and on J. And the 0 has a dot in it. The Gnome Tweaks program has a font selector which shows 'The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog', searching for 'sans' I found only 'Noto Sans Mono Regular' which distinguished the I and l.
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
Am Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:41:04 + schrieb "Russell L. Harris" : > On the 3, 5, 6, and 9, open the end of the loops, and shorten the > horizontal stroke on top of the 5 so the 5 is not mistaken for an S. > Always put horizontal strokes on I. Make the 1 with a flag on the > upper end and put a horizontal stroke on the 7, German-style. My > handwriting is a odd mixture of cursive script and printing. Thanks for sharing! Really interesting ... I'm already implementing all of these "rules". I learnt to write the 7 in German style because I live in Germany ;-) We also learned to put a "flag" on the 1 in school. I was surprised to see other people don't. To me it's quite confusing to see 1 just as a straight line. I don't remember when I startet to put bars on the 'I', probably during my studies of electrical engineering when we used lots of formulas. I also have a "mixed handwriting" with some ligatures (for example on the double 'l'). For the small 's' I use two different glyphs (not on purpose) that usually depend on my mood. For a long time I wasn't even aware I was doing this :-) Best regards, Christoph
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 15:45 James H. H. Lampert wrote: > What Herr Rönnquist said. > And given that I actually *do* set type with some regularity, ... > (And for the record, my "go-to fonts" are all versions of Garamond.) Wow, another Garamond lover! I do, too, love it (and bought a copy of Adobe's version). I think Dr. Donald Knuth was the first person I may have heard mention it. How do you "set type" now? I have been "setting type" with Perl and raw PostScript (then converting it to PDF) for many years. I am now using Raku PDF modules to "set type" directly in PDF documents. All CLI products. -Tom
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 10:14:20PM +0200, Christoph K. wrote: And I loathe fonts in which the numerals 3, 5, 6, and 9 are not radically different. Interesting point. Didn't pay much attention to these numerals, yet. Back in the 1970's, I ran across a detailed study of character shape with respect to the problem of readability after photographic reduction (microfilm and microfische) in hand-lettered engineering drawings (24in x 36in). Reading that study brought about a change in my own handwriting. The study was by a oil company; perhaps it was Shell Oil. That would be really interesting to read. Do you have any (more) hints on how to find that study? Do you remember what change you did in your handwriting? If we (Texas, near Austin) end up with an Autumn with moderate temperatures, I should have a copy in the boxes of papers stored in the garage. I need to sort and cull, anyway. But within a few years (circa A.D. 1980), computerized drafting was introduced and quickly became dominant. I think I was in the very last generation which learned to letter by hand. On the 3, 5, 6, and 9, open the end of the loops, and shorten the horizontal stroke on top of the 5 so the 5 is not mistaken for an S. Always put horizontal strokes on I. Make the 1 with a flag on the upper end and put a horizontal stroke on the 7, German-style. My handwriting is a odd mixture of cursive script and printing. Years ago, in the days when you used pencil to write computer code on a paper form, for conversion to punched cards by a keypunch operator, I got used to writing zeros with a slash. But if most of your writing is numerals (as in spreadsheets), then you may prefer to slash the alphabetic O. The keypunch operators used ``double-entry'' -- the code was typed a second time by a different operator, to guard against error. I read somewhere that the double-entry scheme is used for obtaining an accurate digital version of material which originally was typeset by hand. And, that better accuracy is obtained if the language of the document is foreign to the typists. RLH
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
Am Sat, 19 Aug 2023 20:16:25 + schrieb "Russell L. Harris" : > I am concerned primarily with the distinction between numeral 1 and > lower case L. Of course, 'l' and 'I' was just the most prominent example. Usually I look at 1lI| (numeral one, small 'L' capital 'L', Pipe) > And I loathe fonts in which the numerals 3, 5, 6, and 9 > are not radically different. Interesting point. Didn't pay much attention to these numerals, yet. > Back in the 1970's, I ran across a detailed study of character shape > with respect to the problem of readability after photographic > reduction (microfilm and microfische) in hand-lettered engineering > drawings (24in x 36in). Reading that study brought about a change in > my own handwriting. The study was by a oil company; perhaps it was > Shell Oil. That would be really interesting to read. Do you have any (more) hints on how to find that study? Do you remember what change you did in your handwriting? > For Debian, I searched by opening EDIT > PREFERENCES > APPEARANCE in a > terminal. I currently am using `go mono regular'. But `liberation > mono regular' looks promising. I do admit that I wasn't specific enough in my first question. When I wrote "sans serif", I meant "a not serif font". Actually I wasn't looking for a monospace font either (but didn't state that explicitly). For now "IBM Plex" seems to do a good job. Thanks, Christoph
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
What Herr Rönnquist said. And given that I actually *do* set type with some regularity, I can say from experience that, with the exception of some monospaced examples that are only *nominally* sans-serif (e.g., Bitstream Swiss Monospaced), sans-serif fonts in which uppercase I and lowercase l are readily distinguishable are about as scarce as the proverbial hen's teeth, whether you're talking digital, photo, hot metal, foundry, or wood. -- James H. H. Lampert (And for the record, my "go-to fonts" are all versions of Garamond.)
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
Op 19-08-2023 om 21:19 schreef Christoph K.: I'm unsatisfied with the default sans font in debian for use in the graphical user interface (in my case XFCE). To be honest, I've long since forgotten what the default is. I've used Liberation Mono Regular everywhere in my Xfce DE for ages and I have never mistaken an l for an I or vice versa. Regards, Frank
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
On Sat, Aug 19, 2023 at 03:29:22PM -0400, Christoph K. wrote:
>
> I'm unsatisfied with the default sans font in debian for use in the
> graphical user interface (in my case XFCE).
I use BSD and Linux, and my eyesight sucks. For console work (23" monitor
that's about 2 feet away) I use an Xterm with one of the following fonts
(in order of preference):
* xft:Menlo-Regular:pixelsize=20:bold
* xft:Cascadia:pixelsize=22:bold
* xft:Bitstream Vera Sans Mono:pixelsize=21:bold
For browsing (Firefox), my "prefs.js" file holds:
user_pref("browser.display.use_document_fonts", 0);
user_pref("font.default.x-western", "sans-serif");
user_pref("font.internaluseonly.changed", false);
user_pref("font.minimum-size.x-western", 18);
user_pref("font.name.monospace.x-western", "DejaVu Sans");
user_pref("font.name.sans-serif.x-western", "sans-serif");
user_pref("font.name.serif.x-western", "DejaVu Serif");
user_pref("font.size.fixed.x-western", 18);
user_pref("font.size.variable.x-western", 18);
Others I've liked:
* xft:Edlo:pixelsize=21:bold
* xft:FiraMono-Regular:pixelsize=22:bold
* xft:Inconsolata-Bold:pixelsize=25:bold
* xft:Meslo LG S:pixelsize=20:bold
* xft:Meslo LG S:pixelsize=21:bold
* xft:UbuntuMono-B:pixelsize=25:bold
If you get your FONT setting from the environment, it's easy to experiment:
me% echo $FONT
xft:Cascadia:pixelsize=20:bold
This script starts a new xterm with some tweaks to make it a little nicer:
#!/bin/sh
#https://invisible-island.net/archives/xterm/xterm-384.tgz
https://invisible-island.net/archives/xterm/xterm-384.tgz.asc
To build, unpack the source:
dest=/usr/local
export TERMINFO=/usr/local/share/terminfo
./configure \
--disable-setgid \
--disable-setuid \
--enable-256-color \
--enable-narrowproto \
--mandir=$dest/man \
--with-x \
--with-own-terminfo=$TERMINFO
make
make check
make install
It comes with a nice terminfo file. I've had problems with "tic" for
ncurses >= version 6, so I use the ncurses-5.9 version to compile it:
root# tic59 -V
ncurses 5.9.20110404
root# tic59 -s -o $TERMINFO terminfo
Hope this gives you some ideas.
--
Karl Vogel / vogelke AT pobox DOT com / I don't speak for anyone but myself
The Beatles: "I Get By with a Little Help From Depends"
--Re-released hits for an aging audience
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
For a proportional font, Verdana, Regular seems to come close with, it seems to me, good differentiation between l, I, and 1. O and 0 are a bit problematic as 0 is not dotted or slashed but is more of an ellipse. On this GNOME desktop the interface is set to Cantarell, Regular, and while it has a small serif at the bottom of l, I is simple vertical line, and 1 has the customary serif at the top. O and 0 are not well differentiated except 0 being a slightly narrower oval. There are times when I've pasted something like a random character combination password into a terminal just so I could see what the exact characters are. In my terminals I have switched to Fira Code, Regular as well as in the GNOME settings. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Web: https://www.n0nb.us Projects: https://github.com/N0NB GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
On Sat, Aug 19, 2023 at 16:15 Russell L. Harris wrote: > bumper sticker: DYSLEXICS UNTIE! I concur on sans comments. You might take a look at the Free* fonts family (Debian packages “fonts-freefont-ttf” and “fonts-freefont-otf”). -Tom
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
bumper sticker: DYSLEXICS UNTIE!
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
Cindy Sue Causey wrote: > My own mind went to the place of thinking sans serif was about those > very lines. I just didn't make it to thinking that would make it hard > to find any alternate in that family. > > My long time preference is developer-weary-eye-friendly > fonts-anonymous-pro for whatever applications will accept it. Found it > accidentally a few years ago. Its differences are noticeable enough > that I instantly miss it on new operating system installs. > > The "apt-cache show" description for fonts-anonymous-pro specifically > references both 0 v. O and I v. l v. 1: > > "Description-en: fixed width font designed for coders > This package contains two Font Families. > - Anonymous Pro > - Anonomous Pro Minus > . > 'Anonymous Pro' is a family of four fixed-width fonts designed > especially with coding in mind. Characters that could be mistaken for > one another (O, 0, I, l, 1, etc.) have distinct shapes to make them > easier to tell apart in the context of source code. Terminal fonts tend to be fixed width since that's a property of terminals. Fixed width fonts tend to have serifs because it's easier to make the spacing look more even between inherently narrow characters and inherently wide ones using details like serifs. So finding a sans serif font amongst terminal fonts is likely a difficult cause.
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
On 8/19/23, Andreas Rönnquist wrote: > On Sat, 19 Aug 2023 21:19:48 +0200, > Christoph K. wrote: >> >>I'm unsatisfied with the default sans font in debian for use in the >>graphical user interface (in my case XFCE). >> >>My main concern with the default sans font (I guess it's Bitsream Vera, >>but that doesn't really matter) is the the small 'L' and the capital 'i' >>look the same (mostly). >> >>Everyone who has tried to read unknown characters (e.g. a password >>generated automatically oder base64 encoded data) knows what pain it is to >>distinguish these characters. >> >>Could you please recommend a "suitable" sans-serif font that >>a) has "proper" 'l' and 'I' characters >> > > I'm probably not the right person to answer, but doesn't the > _sans_-serif requirement pretty much make this impossible? It means > _without_ serifs, which are (according to wikipedia) "small line or > stroke regularly attached to the end of a larger stroke in a letter or > symbol within a particular font or family of fonts." > > Which to me seems like pretty much only way to separate a small 'l' > from a big 'i', > > To me, without the serifs, both those characters are simply a line from > top to bottom. My own mind went to the place of thinking sans serif was about those very lines. I just didn't make it to thinking that would make it hard to find any alternate in that family. My long time preference is developer-weary-eye-friendly fonts-anonymous-pro for whatever applications will accept it. Found it accidentally a few years ago. Its differences are noticeable enough that I instantly miss it on new operating system installs. The "apt-cache show" description for fonts-anonymous-pro specifically references both 0 v. O and I v. l v. 1: "Description-en: fixed width font designed for coders This package contains two Font Families. - Anonymous Pro - Anonomous Pro Minus . 'Anonymous Pro' is a family of four fixed-width fonts designed especially with coding in mind. Characters that could be mistaken for one another (O, 0, I, l, 1, etc.) have distinct shapes to make them easier to tell apart in the context of source code. Apparently my Firefox is using sans serif because I just typed that "l v. I", and I can't tell them apart! Found a new toy because of this thread. It's a presumably massive online database that shows how fonts display in elaborate use cases. I used their search feature to (hopefully) focus on sans serif: https://fontsinuse.com/search/advanced?v=2&match0=all&keyword0=sans%20serif Disclaimer: I dropped their categories down to perform CTRL+F for "sans serif" and came up empty so maybe their search is focusing on only sans. That reminded me to reinstall font-manager before also mentioning it (needed to make sure it was the right program). It's developed for GNOME/Gtk+ but/and is working well on the LXQt desktop environment. Font-manager is not just a font viewer. It presents a lot of information that can make it a little overwhelming for a first time visit into a program like it. There's an option to install fonts through font-manager's GUI. I don't have a test case to try first, but I do remember using it successfully in the past, most likely while focused on typeface in GIMP. An afterthought just came to mind. Fonts are being created to specifically aid persons with dyslexia. Maybe a search on that will land a desired user-friendly font.. Cindy :) -- Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA * runs with birdseed *
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
I am a XFCE user with a similar taste in fonts, but I have no need for umlaut. I am concerned primarily with the distinction between numeral 1 and lower case L. And I loathe fonts in which the numerals 3, 5, 6, and 9 are not radically different. Back in the 1970's, I ran across a detailed study of character shape with respect to the problem of readability after photographic reduction (microfilm and microfische) in hand-lettered engineering drawings (24in x 36in). Reading that study brought about a change in my own handwriting. The study was by a oil company; perhaps it was Shell Oil. For Debian, I searched by opening EDIT > PREFERENCES > APPEARANCE in a terminal. I currently am using `go mono regular'. But `liberation mono regular' looks promising. RLH -- He turneth rivers into a wilderness, and the watersprings into dry ground; a fruitful land into barrenness, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein. - Psalm 107:33-34
Re: Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
On Sat, 19 Aug 2023 21:19:48 +0200, Christoph K. wrote: >Hi all, > >I'm unsatisfied with the default sans font in debian for use in the >graphical user interface (in my case XFCE). > >My main concern with the default sans font (I guess it's Bitsream Vera, >but that doesn't really matter) is the the small 'L' and the capital 'i' >look the same (mostly). > >Everyone who has tried to read unknown characters (e.g. a password >generated automatically oder base64 encoded data) knows what pain it is to >distinguish these characters. > >Could you please recommend a "suitable" sans-serif font that >a) has "proper" 'l' and 'I' characters > I'm probably not the right person to answer, but doesn't the _sans_-serif requirement pretty much make this impossible? It means _without_ serifs, which are (according to wikipedia) "small line or stroke regularly attached to the end of a larger stroke in a letter or symbol within a particular font or family of fonts." Which to me seems like pretty much only way to separate a small 'l' from a big 'i', To me, without the serifs, both those characters are simply a line from top to bottom. But I'll admit that I'm far from an expert on the subject. -- Andreas Rönnquist mailingli...@gusnan.se andr...@ronnquist.net
Looking for a good "default" font (small 'L' vs. capital 'i' problem)
Hi all,
I'm unsatisfied with the default sans font in debian for use in the
graphical user interface (in my case XFCE).
My main concern with the default sans font (I guess it's Bitsream Vera,
but that doesn't really matter) is the the small 'L' and the capital 'i'
look the same (mostly).
Everyone who has tried to read unknown characters (e.g. a password
generated automatically oder base64 encoded data) knows what pain it is to
distinguish these characters.
Could you please recommend a "suitable" sans-serif font that
a) has "proper" 'l' and 'I' characters
b) looks harmonious on screen, even for small (8pt, 10pt) font sizes
e.g. not too narrow, not too wide, no weird characters, etc.,
maybe even beautiful, without being "artistic" / fancy
(I noticed how different the interaction with my computer feels
after changing fonts – and I really don't want to accept any font too
stiff, too thin, etc.)
c) has german Umlaute and other regular "foreign language
characters" (no need for a "large" range of Unicode support)
d) has no technical flaws
(a lot of free fonts I tried do have weird quirks, like improper
rendering in specific font sizes, missing characters when printing,
etc. ("Signika" is an example of this))
I'm close to hiring a font designer to design a font according to my
needs, which – in some way – seems ridiculous to me :-)
(On the other hand I like the idea)
The fonts I tried so far and somewhat suit my needs are "Shanti" and
"Share". Both are a bit too narrow for my taste and Share definitly is
too "stiff".
I hope you have a good recommendation for me.
Thanks,
Christoph
