Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 13:32 -0400, Steve C. Lamb wrote: > On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 05:24:08PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: > > Without us, odds are the i386-based machine you're sitting at wouldn't > > exist. > > Employing the royal we? Somehow, Paul, I think that without you we'd do > just fine. You're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make you less wrong. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Celejar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 23:29:01 -0400 Carl Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 11:59:22PM -0400, Celejar wrote: > > > On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:43:25 +0200 > > > Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Am 2008-07-14 17:15:41, schrieb Sam Leon: > > > > > > > > Please can you trim you rpostings next time please? > > > > > > > > > Welcome to the club. I used to feel the same way when I first found > > > > > debian (ubuntu showed it to me). I don't worry about it too much any > > > > > more. I like how it will keep all the newbies away from us so I > > > > > don't > > > > > have to spend all my time running from several questions of "how do I > > > > > navigate the cli" type stuff. > > > > > I like testing. I have not had a problem with it. I don't think > > > > > you > > > > > > > > Oh realy, then you do not realy use Testing... > > > > > > > > My Testing and my Sid went broken for over 6 Weeks because the perl 5.10 > > > > transition... I do not find it realy funny, not to be able to use 60% > > > > of my system... > > > > I also run Testing and had a total of, um, no broken systems since Etch was > > released. Some annoyances, but not a broken system. > > You accidentally trimmed my post, to which I think you are agreeing. > The stuff you quote ends with Michelle's words. > > > Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] Excellent nitpick. I run Sidux on my sandbox laptop. I haven't seen it break yet, though it's early yet. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 05:24:08PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: > Without us, odds are the i386-based machine you're sitting at wouldn't > exist. Employing the royal we? Somehow, Paul, I think that without you we'd do just fine. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Monday 21 July 2008 02:54, Steve Lamb wrote: > Paul Johnson wrote: > > Consider submitting a patch instead. I suspect few have this problem. > > Yes, because everyone is a developer. Be positive, please! -- Shachar Or | שחר אור http://ox.freeallweb.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Monday 21 July 2008 02:51, Paul Johnson wrote: > On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 00:04 +0300, Shachar Or wrote: > > On Sunday 20 July 2008 23:55, Steve Lamb wrote: > > > BTW, let me know when Debian finally gets MB 4/5 to work out of the > > > box as forward/back. Only been a decade since those became standard on > > > most consumer grade mice. :P > > > > Where do I file a bug for this? Seriously. I've a zillion buttons in my > > mouse which I've totally forgot about. > > Consider submitting a patch instead. I suspect few have this problem. Against which package, please? -- Shachar Or | שחר אור http://ox.freeallweb.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Sun, 2008-07-20 at 16:54 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: > Paul Johnson wrote: > > Interestingly enough, about once a decade is about how often I come > > across a mouse with a fourth and fifth button. It's happened once, and > > that was about a decade ago. > > Well, there's not accounting for the technological backwoods of the PRO. Without us, odds are the i386-based machine you're sitting at wouldn't exist. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Paul Johnson wrote: Interestingly enough, about once a decade is about how often I come across a mouse with a fourth and fifth button. It's happened once, and that was about a decade ago. Well, there's not accounting for the technological backwoods of the PRO. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Paul Johnson wrote: Consider submitting a patch instead. I suspect few have this problem. Yes, because everyone is a developer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 00:04 +0300, Shachar Or wrote: > On Sunday 20 July 2008 23:55, Steve Lamb wrote: > > BTW, let me know when Debian finally gets MB 4/5 to work out of the > > box as forward/back. Only been a decade since those became standard on > > most consumer grade mice. :P > > Where do I file a bug for this? Seriously. I've a zillion buttons in my mouse > which I've totally forgot about. Consider submitting a patch instead. I suspect few have this problem. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Sun, 2008-07-20 at 13:55 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: > BTW, let me know when Debian finally gets MB 4/5 to work out of the > box as forward/back. Only been a decade since those became standard on > most consumer grade mice. :P Interestingly enough, about once a decade is about how often I come across a mouse with a fourth and fifth button. It's happened once, and that was about a decade ago. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Brian Marshall wrote: On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:55:13 -0700 Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: BTW, let me know when Debian finally gets MB 4/5 to work out of the box as forward/back. Only been a decade since those became standard on most consumer grade mice. :P I recently did a lenny install and those buttons were working correctly for me. At least in Iceweasel, which recognizes them. You could always map them to alt+left/right with imwheel I guess. I've not noticed any problems, but none of my mice are for human consumption. Perhaps consumer grade mice operate differently. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:55:13 -0700 Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > BTW, let me know when Debian finally gets MB 4/5 to work out of > the box as forward/back. Only been a decade since those became > standard on most consumer grade mice. :P > I recently did a lenny install and those buttons were working correctly for me. At least in Iceweasel, which recognizes them. You could always map them to alt+left/right with imwheel I guess. -- Brian signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Sunday 20 July 2008 23:55, Steve Lamb wrote: > BTW, let me know when Debian finally gets MB 4/5 to work out of the > box as forward/back. Only been a decade since those became standard on > most consumer grade mice. :P Where do I file a bug for this? Seriously. I've a zillion buttons in my mouse which I've totally forgot about. -- Shachar Or | שחר אור http://ox.freeallweb.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Paul Johnson wrote: > So I guess that's why Ubuntu folks are working on Ubuntu instead of > doing the Right Thing by working on Debian Desktop[1], eh? Yeah, because it has nothing to do with wanting to maintain a 6 month release schedule. Let's see, the first release of Ubuntu was 4.10. So since 4.10 to 8.04 is, 8 releases in the time Debian has done... one? Besides, this only shows your jealousy. The whole point of FOSS as a whole and the DSFG specifically is derivative works. If you don't like derivative works you'll be more at home in a non-FOSS environment. In short they are doing the right thing. So sorry you're offended by that. BTW, let me know when Debian finally gets MB 4/5 to work out of the box as forward/back. Only been a decade since those became standard on most consumer grade mice. :P -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 23:29:01 -0400 Carl Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 11:59:22PM -0400, Celejar wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:43:25 +0200 > > Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Am 2008-07-14 17:15:41, schrieb Sam Leon: > > > > > > Please can you trim you rpostings next time please? > > > > > > > Welcome to the club. I used to feel the same way when I first found > > > > debian (ubuntu showed it to me). I don't worry about it too much any > > > > more. I like how it will keep all the newbies away from us so I don't > > > > have to spend all my time running from several questions of "how do I > > > > navigate the cli" type stuff. > > > > I like testing. I have not had a problem with it. I don't think you > > > > > > Oh realy, then you do not realy use Testing... > > > > > > My Testing and my Sid went broken for over 6 Weeks because the perl 5.10 > > > transition... I do not find it realy funny, not to be able to use 60% > > > of my system... > > I also run Testing and had a total of, um, no broken systems since Etch was > released. Some annoyances, but not a broken system. You accidentally trimmed my post, to which I think you are agreeing. The stuff you quote ends with Michelle's words. > Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 11:59:22PM -0400, Celejar wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:43:25 +0200 > Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Am 2008-07-14 17:15:41, schrieb Sam Leon: > > > > Please can you trim you rpostings next time please? > > > > > Welcome to the club. I used to feel the same way when I first found > > > debian (ubuntu showed it to me). I don't worry about it too much any > > > more. I like how it will keep all the newbies away from us so I don't > > > have to spend all my time running from several questions of "how do I > > > navigate the cli" type stuff. > > > I like testing. I have not had a problem with it. I don't think you > > > > Oh realy, then you do not realy use Testing... > > > > My Testing and my Sid went broken for over 6 Weeks because the perl 5.10 > > transition... I do not find it realy funny, not to be able to use 60% > > of my system... I also run Testing and had a total of, um, no broken systems since Etch was released. Some annoyances, but not a broken system. -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations! Stupid mistakes you can correct! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:43:25 +0200 Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Am 2008-07-14 17:15:41, schrieb Sam Leon: > > Please can you trim you rpostings next time please? > > > Welcome to the club. I used to feel the same way when I first found > > debian (ubuntu showed it to me). I don't worry about it too much any > > more. I like how it will keep all the newbies away from us so I don't > > have to spend all my time running from several questions of "how do I > > navigate the cli" type stuff. > > I like testing. I have not had a problem with it. I don't think you > > Oh realy, then you do not realy use Testing... > > My Testing and my Sid went broken for over 6 Weeks because the perl 5.10 > transition... I do not find it realy funny, not to be able to use 60% > of my system... I (Sid) didn't even *notice* the transition. What did I do wrong :)? > Michelle Konzack Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 03:28 -0500, Mumia W.. wrote: > And I don't see Debian in competition with Ubuntu. Or maybe I'll clarify > further: Debian isn't in competition against Ubuntu; Debian is in > competition /with/ Ubuntu. If Ubuntu "wins," Debian "wins." So I guess that's why Ubuntu folks are working on Ubuntu instead of doing the Right Thing by working on Debian Desktop[1], eh? And what's wit gratuitously repeating the mistakes of the RPM world by arbitrarily renaming packages away from the names already established in Debian? [1] http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-desktop/ -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 20:17 -0500, Mumia W.. wrote: > Debian is a serious Linux O/S meant for serious and knowledgeable people. I guess "games" doesn't exist. And since when am I a serious person? :o) -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Am 2008-07-14 17:15:41, schrieb Sam Leon: Please can you trim you rpostings next time please? > Welcome to the club. I used to feel the same way when I first found > debian (ubuntu showed it to me). I don't worry about it too much any > more. I like how it will keep all the newbies away from us so I don't > have to spend all my time running from several questions of "how do I > navigate the cli" type stuff. > I like testing. I have not had a problem with it. I don't think you Oh realy, then you do not realy use Testing... My Testing and my Sid went broken for over 6 Weeks because the perl 5.10 transition... I do not find it realy funny, not to be able to use 60% of my system... Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator 24V Electronic Engineer Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 +49/177/935194750, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Am 2008-07-14 16:51:37, schrieb Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp): > I hope you didn't type up all that, at least on the topics I raised... > it was a waste... > > My topics were.. > 1) Lets try a version of Debian Etch without the binary firmware Then some parts of Debian GNU/Linux would not more work on at least 50% of todays recent Hardware... > 2) Lets add dreamlinux and sidux to the list on debian.org and p.s. have > a little look This two are definitivly NOT what I want. > 3) Lets try a medium ground between stable and testing. For what? -- Realy, I have not understood what you wan to say me. Note: Please stop TOFU. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator 24V Electronic Engineer Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 +49/177/935194750, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Thu,17.Jul.08, 15:28:09, Chris Bannister wrote: > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 08:27:25PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: > > You should contact debian-www about that. I think I recall a discussion > > about the children-distros page being outdated, but I guess manpower is > > missing again. I you would be willing to supply patches against the CVS > > source I'm sure they will be at least looked over. Or maybe that page > > Yeah, but you have to download the **WHOLE** website so you can submit > patches. :-( Makes you think twice about helping. Although, hopefully, Please explain. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 08:27:25PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: > You should contact debian-www about that. I think I recall a discussion > about the children-distros page being outdated, but I guess manpower is > missing again. I you would be willing to supply patches against the CVS > source I'm sure they will be at least looked over. Or maybe that page Yeah, but you have to download the **WHOLE** website so you can submit patches. :-( Makes you think twice about helping. Although, hopefully, if you mention it on the debian-www mailing list someone will do the necessary without being an [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Chris. == "One, with God, is always a majority, but many a martyr has been burned at the stake while the votes were being counted." -- Thomas B. Reed -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 07:44:02PM +0100, Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: > Andrew Sackville-West wrote: >> to add to this... it sounds like OP is asking for known good snapshots >> of lenny to be tagged somehow and frozen until the next known good >> snapshot comes along. Okay, it's an interesting idea.. > You're the first person to truly grasp what I was trying to say, I'm > sorry folks if it was confusing but to me it really didn't read back as > confusing. >> 1) who determines what constitutes a known-good snapshot? > No idea, what do you think? Seriously I don't know. >> 2) and which of the roughly 18000 packages are to be included in the >> snapshot? >> 3)does that mean that the entire repo is duplicated at that point in >> time? that adds roughly 25% of the current repo size for every >> snapshot that is kept around >> > Hopefully the repo doesn't need to be duplicated... I was thinking there > might be a way of informing the preinstalled apt from the Alpha ISO cd > that it should ignore updates until just a flag is raised. Thus you > don't need another repository. so you would have to either create all the disk images for a complete install (like 16 cds, don't know how many dvd's) and host those, or create a snapshot of the repo for installing over the network. >> 4) security updates? the security team has enough to do already, you >> don't seriously think its a good idea to "freeze" a potentially >> bug-ridden pre-release set of packages without security support, do >> you? >> > It's Alpha... so yes you freeze it and face the risks... >> 5) if security support is provided for alpha snapshots, is security >> expected to backport fixes to the latest alpha snapshot even if >> testing has moved on to another later version but hasn't yet kicked >> out a new snapshot yet? >> > It wouldn't be supported. >> it's a complicated thing that OP proposes, I think. ISTM that it's >> much easier to realize that testing is a "moving target" alpha >> release (complete with security support, BTW) and the RC's are beta >> releases. >> > Nope, its not complicated now you have those answers I hope :D I still think it's more complicated than you make it out to be. I personally don't buy it, but if it's what you really need, and if you aren't alone, then perhaps you can generate enough momentum to get it done. Or, heck, do it yourself! You could certainly run your own repository and pull updates into as needed to generate this alpha snapshot. A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On 07/15/2008 01:56 AM, Brad Rogers wrote: On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:17:28 -0500 "Mumia W.." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello Mumia, serious Linux O/S meant for serious and knowledgeable people. Here, That precludes me from using it then; I'm neither serious nor knowledgeable. :-) :-) I know you're just jesting, but I want to clarify that Debian creates a better learning environment than Ubuntu, so many of the things that Ubuntu does, wouldn't work so well "here." And I don't see Debian in competition with Ubuntu. Or maybe I'll clarify further: Debian isn't in competition against Ubuntu; Debian is in competition /with/ Ubuntu. If Ubuntu "wins," Debian "wins." -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:17:28 -0500 "Mumia W.." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello Mumia, > serious Linux O/S meant for serious and knowledgeable people. Here, That precludes me from using it then; I'm neither serious nor knowledgeable. :-) -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent" Bet you thought you knew what I was about Problem - Sex Pistols signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On 07/14/2008 04:18 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: I'm not suggesting that they're the same, I'm suggesting that by making backports official it would be self defeating (why not just update stable?) and complicate things for developers (now they have two stable packages to follow). There's a time and a place for backports, but to make it an official part of Debian would be complicated for developers and confusing for users. I agree. The whole Debian system, which I applaud, is already too confusing. However, the flexibility Debian gives us in selecting software packages and repositories allows us to have pretty much whatever distribution we want. And if someone wants to support exotic combinations of packages and features with security support--more power to them, but that should be done outside of the Debian organization. And most definitely, Debian does not need to come out with a new distribution. There are already /way/ too many distributions of Linux, and there are /six/ distributions of Debian in common use: Sid, Lenny, Etch, Sarge, Woody and Potato. Creating new distributions just for marketing purposes is silly. If that works to make Mark Shuttleworth another several million dollars--good for him, but Debian doesn't need to mimic that behavior. Debian is a serious Linux O/S meant for serious and knowledgeable people. Here, we don't need to trick people into buying three installations CD's that are really all the same O/S but with different install defaults. Our users have not been dumbed-down that much, and they should never be. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 02:11:13PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: > On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 11:36 -0700, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > > > it's a complicated thing that OP proposes, I think. ISTM that it's > > much easier to realize that testing is a "moving target" alpha > > release (complete with security support, BTW) and the RC's are beta > > releases. > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "sid" alpha, "testing" beta, and > "frozen" the RC? sure, I was just trying to come up with a way to fit OP's idea into the way debian works. Your attempt is better... A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: Hi folks, This is my first time on the Debian mailing list. I wanted to bring up a number of things I have been thinking about as of late. I had a long lng chat in #debian-offtopic if some of you remember. Abrotman - you're gonna love this :P Apologies in advance for the anti-ubuntu-ness, it's just my opinion... please don't take it personally :D --- First of all I want to bring up the idea of a FSF Debian GNU/Linux, everyone I have spoken to on IRC so far are in support of this idea so I thought I'd outline it here so that theres a record of it. I'm tired of seeing projects like gNewSense and Gobuntu. Debian is miles more in tune with FSF expectations on 'the free operating system' idea than Ubuntu is, for example Firefox is a problem which Ubuntu don't mind but we do. It would take far less effort for us to create a FSF compliant operating system than it is out of a 'Ubuntu Base' <- (that makes my stomach churn). All we have to do is form an official sister project that makes a slightly tweaked version of stable (Etch) with a different Kernel that doesn't contain the binary firmware. Possibly if you wanted to get even more favour with the FSF you could swap IceWeasel for IceCat (since they are practically identical and serve the same purpose, but IceCat is GNU IceCat). FSF endorsing an OS that has a 'Ubuntu Base' <- (again, *vomits*) only serves to give even more attention publicity to the Ubuntu community than to its daddy... Debian. Ubuntu being used as a 'base' for new operating systems (I can name many now, see wikipedia), or even as a 'Server OS' (are they Microsoft or what?) is a threat to what Debian is renounced for and could (one day) make us potentially defunct. This sister project can act as a constant reminder we use binary firmware and keep us focussed on (one day, I admit its a long way off) moving towards that goal. And hopefully eventually (personal opinion here) GNU/Hurd... so it no longer matters anyway. Debian has the upper hand in servers, stability, and multi architecture... it's time we show FSF why endorsing an OS that _only_ a x86 desktop-orientated OS is not enough. --- NOTE: I only use Dreamlinux occasionally to see how its doing, I'm not a regular user and this isn't an advert - I'm using it as an example of a 'not so bad fork'. Second! I spent a long time in #debian-offtopic (points at abrotman) arguing that Dreamlinux is a worthy Operating System. And the reason why I say it is 'worthy' is they (for the most part) actually use our repositories. If we were to declare lenny as stable tomorrow, all of their users would immediately start trying to upgrade to Sid (which is a little silly in my opinion, but hey). I was trying to say that Ubuntu is a fork in that they have wholly taken a separate copy of Debian and re-branded it their own. The Ubuntu front-page doesn't even mention it is based on Debian any more now, although the server page does say... "The Ubuntu Server Edition - built on the solid foundation of Debian... blah blah"... but that does make me scream... WELL USE DEBIAN THEN. But that's a little off topic :P. So Ubuntu is a definite fork... but I was trying to say Dreamlinux is at least _less_ of a fork in that it is very very much reliant on us. If you want to fix something in Dreamlinux there's a 99% chance that 'the something' is actually a Debian component... and to fix it you would be fixing it for Debian too as we host it. I will admit... Dreamlinux IS A FORK... and it is not Debian (only based on) -- so you can be happy abrotman :D rest well... I would like it to be mentioned on www.debian.org/misc/children-distros as I think it is an admirable project and is now in the top 10 of distrowatch. Also I think Sidux works in a similar way by using our real repositories (I like calling these Sporks not Forks :P but I'm just odd) and that isn't on the list either. Dreamlinux devs and admins make a repeated habit of saying they are Debian based, and they do not ever intend to go with their own repository - the developers are proud Debian users looking to make something preconfigured for desktop use out of the bo...u .ISO :D To some degree these Sporks (less than forks) make me think a win for them, is at the very least a small win for us... if we can have official KDE leaning and XFCE leaning editions of Debian (alternate CD1's) then these are like unofficial editions of debian with their own cause... but not straying totally on two feet from our project like Ubuntu. --- Now for my final rant... I've been using testing (Lenny) at work for a number of months now, I know its not meant for production environments but I get by. There's a few packages (e.g. grsync) that I like to use and I need thei
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon,14.Jul.08, 14:18:38, Paul Johnson wrote: > Please disable sending in HTML. HTML email violates list guidelines. > Aslo, please include a quotemark of some sort like everyone else instead > of expecting a one-inch indent to be sufficient. The text part was quoted correctly so I guess getting rid of the html would be sufficient :) Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 17:28 +0100, Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: > Damon L. Chesser wrote: > >> 1) Lets try a version of Debian Etch without the binary firmware > >> > > > > answered by my /rant/ about firmware and clusers > > > My point about the FSF Debian sister project was that it can be done so > easily that it gives us something to aim for. It already exists, it's called "main." Contrib are times that could go in main but depend on stuff in non-free. Non-free is just as it sounds. > > Please respond back to the debian-user list. > > > You have a reply-to set you realise so replies go to yourself and not > the list. Reply-To: defines where replies to the author go, not replies to the list or all replies. You should be using "Reply to Mailing List" instead of "Reply to Author" to reply to mailing lists. Well managed mailing lists do not set the Reply-To: header to identify how to reply to the mailing list, it sets List-Id: instead. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 17:08 -0400, Damon L. Chesser wrote: > Agreed. IMHO Debian rocks. I was simply speaking of the "out of the box" > experience. Debian is not a good fit for someone who does not want to get > dirty and edit a file (once in a while). Most users do not want to EDIT > (ohhh, scary) a file. Debian's default desktop is Gnome. So far, I haven't found anything I can't do via some Gnome GUI in terms of your routine administration tasks that isn't either happening automagically thanks to cron or anacron regardless of DE or made point-and-drool in Gnome. That being said, it's usually easier and faster to bust out the text editor in either distribution; people who insist that GUIs are always the best tool for the job are just psyching themselves out in most cases. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 02:01:11PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: > I'm not sure Ubuntu mostly solved this issue so much as they made it > pretty. Debian does the same thing, too, you know...it's not like we're > still using the old boot-floppies installer and debconf doesn't exist to > answer questions for you. Ubuntu has mostly solved this. Because of Debian's philosophy there are simply some things that Debian cannot do reasonably well that Ubuntu can. Restricted drivers being the prime example. The fact that they have Firefox, not "Iceweasel", installed by default is another. Debian will not address those because it is against the social contract. That's fine. Just as Ubuntu addressing those warts without the constraints of the DSC is fine. That's the whole point of FOSS. Poo-pooing either project shows a gross misunderstanding of what it's all about. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Please disable sending in HTML. HTML email violates list guidelines. Aslo, please include a quotemark of some sort like everyone else instead of expecting a one-inch indent to be sufficient. On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 16:09 -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote: > I disagree. I think it's inappropriate to compare Backports and > Testing. They have different scopes. One is an entire operating > system in development, the other is updates to key end-user software > running on an otherwise static system that is not undergoing active > development. To equate them is a mistake. I'm not suggesting that they're the same, I'm suggesting that by making backports official it would be self defeating (why not just update stable?) and complicate things for developers (now they have two stable packages to follow). There's a time and a place for backports, but to make it an official part of Debian would be complicated for developers and confusing for users. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 19:23 +0100, Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: > "These milestones don't have to affect the way it is developed, just > someone keeping an eagle eye out for a weekly generated ISO that -kinda > works OK- that can be relabelled Alpha 1, 2, 3 etc... and with a tweaked > apt so it doesn't update until the next Alpha." I believe that's why apt has support for forbidden versions and pinning, and the reason the package apt-listbugs exists. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 11:36 -0700, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > it's a complicated thing that OP proposes, I think. ISTM that it's > much easier to realize that testing is a "moving target" alpha > release (complete with security support, BTW) and the RC's are beta > releases. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "sid" alpha, "testing" beta, and "frozen" the RC? -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 16:17 -0300, Ignacio Mondino wrote: > > Steve C. Lamb wrote: > > >> I Think there is a project called etch and a half in trac of that. > > > > > > It's called backports. :) > > > > > > > Ok, Now we have two! Debian is wonderfull! :D > > > > I hope backports become an official project soon, they do a great job. > > That would defeat the purpose of the testing branch and make the path to > stable that much more convoluted: Self defeating purpose. I disagree. I think it's inappropriate to compare Backports and Testing. They have different scopes. One is an entire operating system in development, the other is updates to key end-user software running on an otherwise static system that is not undergoing active development. To equate them is a mistake. -- Chris
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Monday 14 July 2008 05:01:11 pm Paul Johnson wrote: > On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 11:12 -0400, Damon L. Chesser wrote: > > Alpha release: We have that, it is called testing. Packages are > > "dumped" into Sid, after a period of time with out bug reports, it is > > moved into testing (10 days?) automatically. > > Other way around. sid is still in development, testing is where > packages go barring major bug reports. > > > If you want to change this, YOU MUST market Debian (and Debian does not > > like to market it's self.) and you MUST make the "cluser" hardware work. > > You must NOT make the clueless user jump through hoops, dig through > > documentation, search the web, all just to make his wireless work or his > > webpage to display. If you have ever gotten a call from a customer asking > > "where did I save that file I downloaded" then you KNOW this. People, > > all people (aside from hobbiest) want to USE the computer, not make it > > work. Ubuntu mostly has solved this issue. > > I'm not sure Ubuntu mostly solved this issue so much as they made it > pretty. Debian does the same thing, too, you know...it's not like we're > still using the old boot-floppies installer and debconf doesn't exist to > answer questions for you. Agreed. IMHO Debian rocks. I was simply speaking of the "out of the box" experience. Debian is not a good fit for someone who does not want to get dirty and edit a file (once in a while). Most users do not want to EDIT (ohhh, scary) a file. -- Damon L. Chesser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linkedin.com/in/dchesser signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 19:11 +0100, Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: > > What you are proposing is that packages move from Unstable, to a Testing > > alpha package, then to Testing which would be the basis of the RC's, and > > then onward to Stable. > > > To be blunt... -Fail- > That is not what I have suggested what so ever in any way shape or form. Yet those were the words that came out of your mouth. Don't be such a douchebag when someone misinterprets a long, winding rant with no cohesive thesis. Perhaps if you had expressed your opinion in a well-edited narrative essay, your point would have been made more clearly the first time. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 16:17 -0300, Ignacio Mondino wrote: > Steve C. Lamb wrote: > >> I Think there is a project called etch and a half in trac of that. > > > > It's called backports. :) > > > > Ok, Now we have two! Debian is wonderfull! :D > > I hope backports become an official project soon, they do a great job. That would defeat the purpose of the testing branch and make the path to stable that much more convoluted: Self defeating purpose. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 11:12 -0400, Damon L. Chesser wrote: > Alpha release: We have that, it is called testing. Packages are "dumped" > into Sid, after a period of time with out bug reports, it is moved into > testing (10 days?) automatically. Other way around. sid is still in development, testing is where packages go barring major bug reports. > If you want to change this, YOU MUST market Debian (and Debian does not like > to market it's self.) and you MUST make the "cluser" hardware work. You must > NOT make the clueless user jump through hoops, dig through documentation, > search the web, all just to make his wireless work or his webpage to display. > > If you have ever gotten a call from a customer asking "where did I save that > file I downloaded" then you KNOW this. People, all people (aside from > hobbiest) want to USE the computer, not make it work. Ubuntu mostly has > solved this issue. I'm not sure Ubuntu mostly solved this issue so much as they made it pretty. Debian does the same thing, too, you know...it's not like we're still using the old boot-floppies installer and debconf doesn't exist to answer questions for you. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon,14.Jul.08, 14:42:30, Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: [...] > First of all I want to bring up the idea of a FSF Debian GNU/Linux, > everyone I have spoken to on IRC so far are in support of this idea so I > thought I'd outline it here so that theres a record of it. > > I'm tired of seeing projects like gNewSense and Gobuntu. Debian is > miles more in tune with FSF expectations on 'the free operating system' > idea than Ubuntu is, for example Firefox is a problem which Ubuntu don't > mind but we do. It would take far less effort for us to create a FSF > compliant operating system than it is out of a 'Ubuntu Base' <- (that > makes my stomach churn). I like the balance chosen by Debian (freedom vs. usability). > All we have to do is form an official sister project that makes a > slightly tweaked version of stable (Etch) with a different Kernel that > doesn't contain the binary firmware. Possibly if you wanted to get even > more favour with the FSF you could swap IceWeasel for IceCat (since they > are practically identical and serve the same purpose, but IceCat is GNU > IceCat). You can do it yourself ;) [about Ubuntu and Dreamlinux > I would like it to be mentioned on www.debian.org/misc/children-distros > as I think it is an admirable project and is now in the top 10 of > distrowatch. Also I think Sidux works in a similar way by using our > real repositories (I like calling these Sporks not Forks :P but I'm just > odd) and that isn't on the list either. Dreamlinux devs and admins make You should contact debian-www about that. I think I recall a discussion about the children-distros page being outdated, but I guess manpower is missing again. I you would be willing to supply patches against the CVS source I'm sure they will be at least looked over. Or maybe that page should be moved to the wiki? Again, this is a topic for debian-www [making alpha releases from testing] I like testing and unstable being rolling distros (without a set version). IMO this is a feature not a bug. People who want/need stability can use stable. Why do you think Ubuntu introduced the LTS version? Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Steve C. Lamb wrote: >> I Think there is a project called etch and a half in trac of that. > > It's called backports. :) > Ok, Now we have two! Debian is wonderfull! :D I hope backports become an official project soon, they do a great job. -- --- http://stupidityandmalice.blogspot.com/ Ignacio Mondino Don't Panic signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 04:06:49PM -0300, Ignacio Mondino wrote: > > 3) Lets try a medium ground between stable and testing. > I Think there is a project called etch and a half in trac of that. It's called backports. :) -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: > I hope you didn't type up all that, at least on the topics I raised... > it was a waste... > > My topics were.. > 1) Lets try a version of Debian Etch without the binary firmware Like I said in other mail, use just main repositories. > 2) Lets add dreamlinux and sidux to the list on debian.org and p.s. have > a little look Thas a really good idea, derivative distributions should have a place in debian. > 3) Lets try a medium ground between stable and testing. I Think there is a project called etch and a half in trac of that. -- --- http://stupidityandmalice.blogspot.com/ Ignacio Mondino Don't Panic signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: > First of all I want to bring up the idea of a FSF Debian GNU/Linux, > everyone I have spoken to on IRC so far are in support of this idea so I > thought I'd outline it here so that theres a record of it. >... Hi Erase the contrib non-free part in your /etc/sources.list entries, now you have an entirely free distibution, the reason that there are differences with the FSF, Debian has NON FREE repositories and debian users has freedom to choose to use them or not. Ubuntu has marketing, and money, so they rename different flavours, like windows does with vista ultimate, home, and all the kind, one of them is entirely free, like Debian main repositories. So basically thats it, have a good day, don't hate ubuntu, they have a product (a good one), instaed try to be proud of Debian and help to improve it. Be happy!. -- --- http://stupidityandmalice.blogspot.com/ Ignacio Mondino Don't Panic signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Monday 14 July 2008 02:11:38 pm Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: > > What you are proposing is that packages move from Unstable, to a Testing > > alpha package, then to Testing which would be the basis of the RC's, and > > then onward to Stable. > > To be blunt... -Fail- > That is not what I have suggested what so ever in any way shape or form. > > I could re-explain but I won't... you just wasted 8 reading paragraphs > of my life listening to you arguing against a suggestion I didn't make. > > Please re-read what I suggested in my -original- message and not the one > with the highlights for the other person that totally misunderstood the > purpose of original message. > > > Steven Steven, I have re-read it, please check for comprehension: >My suggestion however is >this... In the process of lenny being created it can't possibly go from >0% done straight to 100% done. If we had Alpha releases, say >'lenny-alpha1' release at a point where there's no major >block/crash-like problems being caused then people could download that >milestone release. 'lenny-alpha1' could then not update until >'lenny-alpha2' is released... I asked this question: >I thought you said an alpha release. That is testing. I am not a developer >and I don't use testing, I use Sid. In my eight years with Debian, testing >seems a dangerous place to be. How do you propose to move packages into or >maintain this pre-stable version? What criteria? This seems like Testing to >me. No bugs reported >>testing, after some time, freeze, repair/fix bugs > >>stable. On this point, I am not being argumentative, I just don't see >what >one more step will do, or how do you talk volunteers into more work? Having re-read your posting, I still don't see your point? You have yet to get a response to my clarifying question. There are bugs in testing, but those bugs are found AFTER they move into testing. Testing is cleaned up as times moves on and the devs get on it, both upstream and in Debain. The freeze is announced, six months, a year later all bugs are cleared up, stable is released. AS I understand your point: No bugs effecting operations are found, release testing-alpha-1. This is a faulty argument. Bugs are NOT fixed in testing when they are found. Bugs are fixed in testing as the devs have the ability and time. Alpha means pre-release, pre-user-testing (RC Candidate) release. That is the definition of testing. Again, I am not trying to insult you are argue, I just don't see HOW to do what you suggest and I am open to hearing HOW we can do this. Keep in mind, what we think does not matter, the maintainers have to be convinced. HTH -- Damon L. Chesser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linkedin.com/in/dchesser signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Andrew Sackville-West wrote: to add to this... it sounds like OP is asking for known good snapshots of lenny to be tagged somehow and frozen until the next known good snapshot comes along. Okay, it's an interesting idea.. You're the first person to truly grasp what I was trying to say, I'm sorry folks if it was confusing but to me it really didn't read back as confusing. 1) who determines what constitutes a known-good snapshot? No idea, what do you think? Seriously I don't know. 2) and which of the roughly 18000 packages are to be included in the snapshot? 3)does that mean that the entire repo is duplicated at that point in time? that adds roughly 25% of the current repo size for every snapshot that is kept around Hopefully the repo doesn't need to be duplicated... I was thinking there might be a way of informing the preinstalled apt from the Alpha ISO cd that it should ignore updates until just a flag is raised. Thus you don't need another repository. 4) security updates? the security team has enough to do already, you don't seriously think its a good idea to "freeze" a potentially bug-ridden pre-release set of packages without security support, do you? It's Alpha... so yes you freeze it and face the risks... 5) if security support is provided for alpha snapshots, is security expected to backport fixes to the latest alpha snapshot even if testing has moved on to another later version but hasn't yet kicked out a new snapshot yet? It wouldn't be supported. it's a complicated thing that OP proposes, I think. ISTM that it's much easier to realize that testing is a "moving target" alpha release (complete with security support, BTW) and the RC's are beta releases. Nope, its not complicated now you have those answers I hope :D Steven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 09:55:19AM -0500, Kent West wrote: .. > > I've found that for me, running Sid is less painful than running Testing. AOL that. A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 01:17:44PM -0500, Stackpole, Chris wrote: > >To be blunt... -Fail- > >That is not what I have suggested what so ever in any way shape or > form. > > > >I could re-explain but I won't... you just wasted 8 reading paragraphs > >of my life listening to you arguing against a suggestion I didn't make. > > > >Please re-read what I suggested in my -original- message and not the > one > >with the highlights for the other person that totally misunderstood the > > >purpose of original message. > > > OK. I will. I quote from your original email: > > "If we had Alpha releases, say 'lenny-alpha1' release at a point where > there's no major block/crash-like problems being caused then people > could download that milestone release. 'lenny-alpha1' could then not > update until 'lenny-alpha2' is released" > > Sounds like you want to have pre-stable release to me. It's called a > Release Candidate. > > I still see no reason to have separate releases or stages within > testing. I think it is more trouble then it is worth for the developers. to add to this... it sounds like OP is asking for known good snapshots of lenny to be tagged somehow and frozen until the next known good snapshot comes along. Okay, it's an interesting idea, but I think it's a non-starter for several reasons: 1) who determines what constitutes a known-good snapshot? 2) and which of the roughly 18000 packages are to be included in the snapshot? 3)does that mean that the entire repo is duplicated at that point in time? that adds roughly 25% of the current repo size for every snapshot that is kept around 4) security updates? the security team has enough to do already, you don't seriously think its a good idea to "freeze" a potentially bug-ridden pre-release set of packages without security support, do you? 5) if security support is provided for alpha snapshots, is security expected to backport fixes to the latest alpha snapshot even if testing has moved on to another later version but hasn't yet kicked out a new snapshot yet? it's a complicated thing that OP proposes, I think. ISTM that it's much easier to realize that testing is a "moving target" alpha release (complete with security support, BTW) and the RC's are beta releases. .02 A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
RE: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
>You're gonna get tired of me telling you that you don't read. >I think you're just closed minded - sorry I am reading, trying to understand your comments, and I am not purposefully trying to be close minded. I just don't see the point in what you are asking for. Judging from the feedback you have gotten so far, apparently no one else is either. I am not the only one to comment about the RC's nor about the pointlessness of a release cycle within testing. So it is either not a well formed argument or there are a lot of others who are having difficulty reading today. I kinda doubt the latter. If you want to have these releases, then there is nothing stopping you from releasing your own. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Damon L. Chesser wrote: On Monday 14 July 2008 02:11:38 pm Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: What you are proposing is that packages move from Unstable, to a Testing alpha package, then to Testing which would be the basis of the RC's, and then onward to Stable. To be blunt... -Fail- That is not ...snip/gag/lol.. Steven Or, How to win friends and influence people. I will re-read it. To be blunt... -win- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Stackpole, Chris wrote: To be blunt... -Fail- That is not what I have suggested what so ever in any way shape or form. I could re-explain but I won't... you just wasted 8 reading paragraphs of my life listening to you arguing against a suggestion I didn't make. Please re-read what I suggested in my -original- message and not the one with the highlights for the other person that totally misunderstood the purpose of original message. OK. I will. I quote from your original email: "If we had Alpha releases, say 'lenny-alpha1' release at a point where there's no major block/crash-like problems being caused then people could download that milestone release. 'lenny-alpha1' could then not update until 'lenny-alpha2' is released" Sounds like you want to have pre-stable release to me. It's called a Release Candidate. I still see no reason to have separate releases or stages within testing. I think it is more trouble then it is worth for the developers. Chris Stackpole You're gonna get tired of me telling you that you don't read. What I also put was this... "These milestones don't have to affect the way it is developed, just someone keeping an eagle eye out for a weekly generated ISO that -kinda works OK- that can be relabelled Alpha 1, 2, 3 etc... and with a tweaked apt so it doesn't update until the next Alpha." I'm _NOT_ on about a pre-stable release like a RC, you might have your first alpha only a couple of months after work on lenny as "testing" first began. I think you're just closed minded - sorry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Florian Kulzer wrote: On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 17:28:38 +0100, Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: Damon L. Chesser wrote: [...] Please respond back to the debian-user list. You have a reply-to set you realise so replies go to yourself and not the list. You are confusing reply-to with mail-followup-to. He's also confusing feedback and discussion with criticism and 'red alert panics', or some such. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 05:28:38PM +0100, Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: ... >>> 3) Lets try a medium ground between stable and testing. ... > This wouldn't be one more step... as I have already explained! It won't > be unstable -> testing -> alpha -> stable... that would be plain stupid. > Alpha will just be a slightly re-badged ISO (one of the weekly generated > ones) that represents a significant but feasibly usable step... it > doesn't need a separate repository or much management at all. Please > re-read what I originally wrote about this idea, I don't think you > grasped how simple the suggestion was. Steven, welcome to DU. I'm not sure what you're proposing here, but we already do something like this with the combination of testing, code freeze and release candidates. When testing gets to a point where it is almost ready for release, the release manager issues a code freeze. That means no new code moves into testing (unstable too? not sure on that). Then the last of the RC bugs get worked on while the release team makes occaisional Release Candidate releases. I figure these are essentially beta test releases. Prior to a release candidate coming out, testing is in a constant state of "alpha", it just doesn't have any numbering scheme. I suppose, one could arbitrarily assign numbers to it. Take the weekly snapshots and call each one lenny.alpha.xx where xx is the week number or something like that. But that's really only a naming convention, and not of any actual use. .02 A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
RE: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
>To be blunt... -Fail- >That is not what I have suggested what so ever in any way shape or form. > >I could re-explain but I won't... you just wasted 8 reading paragraphs >of my life listening to you arguing against a suggestion I didn't make. > >Please re-read what I suggested in my -original- message and not the one >with the highlights for the other person that totally misunderstood the >purpose of original message. OK. I will. I quote from your original email: "If we had Alpha releases, say 'lenny-alpha1' release at a point where there's no major block/crash-like problems being caused then people could download that milestone release. 'lenny-alpha1' could then not update until 'lenny-alpha2' is released" Sounds like you want to have pre-stable release to me. It's called a Release Candidate. I still see no reason to have separate releases or stages within testing. I think it is more trouble then it is worth for the developers. Chris Stackpole -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Monday 14 July 2008 02:11:38 pm Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: > > What you are proposing is that packages move from Unstable, to a Testing > > alpha package, then to Testing which would be the basis of the RC's, and > > then onward to Stable. > > To be blunt... -Fail- > That is not what I have suggested what so ever in any way shape or form. > > I could re-explain but I won't... you just wasted 8 reading paragraphs > of my life listening to you arguing against a suggestion I didn't make. > > Please re-read what I suggested in my -original- message and not the one > with the highlights for the other person that totally misunderstood the > purpose of original message. > > > Steven Or, How to win friends and influence people. I will re-read it. -- Damon L. Chesser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linkedin.com/in/dchesser signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
What you are proposing is that packages move from Unstable, to a Testing alpha package, then to Testing which would be the basis of the RC's, and then onward to Stable. To be blunt... -Fail- That is not what I have suggested what so ever in any way shape or form. I could re-explain but I won't... you just wasted 8 reading paragraphs of my life listening to you arguing against a suggestion I didn't make. Please re-read what I suggested in my -original- message and not the one with the highlights for the other person that totally misunderstood the purpose of original message. Steven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
* Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008 Jul 14 09:05 -0500]: > First of all I want to bring up the idea of a FSF Debian GNU/Linux, > everyone I have spoken to on IRC so far are in support of this idea so I > thought I'd outline it here so that theres a record of it. I believe that if you delve into the history of Debian, you will find that at one time it was a part of GNU or at least had a very close relationship with GNU. Each went their seperate ways for some reason. A bit of research may reveal that each project has its own aim and do not always agree on the definition of "freedom" or where the freedom should exist or who (developer or user) should be the primary beneficiary. > Ubuntu being used as a 'base' for new operating > systems (I can name many now, see wikipedia), or even as a 'Server OS' > (are they Microsoft or what?) is a threat to what Debian is renounced for > and could (one day) make us potentially defunct. Sorry to be pedantic, but perhaps you meant "renowned" which is synonymous with "famous". I doubt that a rant about a dire future prediction will result in the two projects joining--there are enough differences in philosophy on both sides to keep it from happening. Besides, if the GNU people wanted their own "pure" version of Debian, they've had on the order of 15 years or so to create it. That they've not bothered to do so says something. To quote or paraphrase a signature I've seen around here, "What you are proposing to do will inolve a lot of time and hassle for no tangible benefit." For the nearly nine years I've been involved with the Debian community, someone, somewhere, has been sounding an alarm about the imminent demise of Debian. Yet, we're still here. - Nate >> -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://n0nb.us/index.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Stackpole, Chris wrote: Personally, I would feel bad for the developers who would be forced to upkeep an unstable, a testing alpha (may or may not break), a testing (may or may not break), and a stable release version. It would be like having a version of testing as a perpetual Release Candidate. I don't really care to wish that on the developers. If you want a working Sid machine, just load this: http://sidux.com/ (No, I don't endorse anyone but people who know what they're doing and what they're getting into using it -- I just know about it being "out there" and I'm sharing so the tweakers who can't wait, but also can't code or fix anything on their own... can play with it.) I would like to see a well standardized release system. I think that is one thing that Mark Shuttleworth is doing right over at Ubuntu. I personally think that a 6mo release cycle is a bit much, however, would it be really difficult to pick a date once a year and just state something like "Every August 1rst testing is frozen and a release will be made by the end of September!"? That way the time frame between stable releases isn't absurd and everyone knows when they need to have their code in place. It isn't an arbitrary date that developers may or may not be aware of. "Real" release dates are nice, but Debian also needs to keep the freedom to NEVER break policy that states critical bugs either mean the package is removed, or fixed, BEFORE release. That's what makes Debian as rock-solid as it is for Production purposes. If that means waiting 2 months to fix something that's busted... so be it. Nate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
>My topics were.. >1) Lets try a version of Debian Etch without the binary firmware Go for it. If it is something you want to see, then there is nothing stopping you from trying. >3) Lets try a medium ground between stable and testing. Why? I don't really see your point. >From my perspective on what you have said in your email, I think this is a really bad idea. We all know how it works right now, but let's just go and follow the logic of the current release method. The journey begins in Sid (Unstable). After a predefined and well regulated set of criteria are matched we get Testing. When testing has gotten to the point of a good release, the code base is frozen and we get Release Candidates. After the kinks are worked out in the RC's we move on to Stable and when the life cycle runs again we end up in oldstable. What you are proposing is that packages move from Unstable, to a Testing alpha package, then to Testing which would be the basis of the RC's, and then onward to Stable. But what has that gotten us besides an extra layer of hassle for the developers? What new criteria and standards will be required to make the move from testing alpha to testing beta? You say "no major block/crash-like problems", but isn't that what Testing is for already? >From my understanding, Testing was and is never meant to be an 'always usable always working' OS. Testing is for /testing/ purposes. Stable is for production. If you want to run /Testing/ on a "production" system then you are on your own. If you want a stable environment, use stable! If you need packages in testing, then risk having things in a bit of turmoil. I understand completely the need for packages that are in testing and may not be in stable. I have a certain server that I was unable to build with Debian Stable as there were too many conflicts with the 64bit drivers in Stable. So I built the server with Testing. I have to be much more careful with that system when I do upgrades because I can't afford to be happy-go-lucky with it. However, I have another system that was explicitly built for upgrading and updating Testing to /test packages before deploying them/. Quite the idea, I know. Too bad I can't claim credit for it. :-) Trust me, I understand how frustrating things can be when Testing breaks. Yet, I just don't see the solution in maintaining another level of packages that may or may not break within testing. From your email it sounds like you think it will be a simple extra package layer, but from my understanding of how things work in Debian...I think it is going to be a lot of work to implement and maintain. Then again, I am not one of the big developers who knows the complete ins and outs of the process so maybe I am wrong. Personally, I would feel bad for the developers who would be forced to upkeep an unstable, a testing alpha (may or may not break), a testing (may or may not break), and a stable release version. It would be like having a version of testing as a perpetual Release Candidate. I don't really care to wish that on the developers. I would like to see a well standardized release system. I think that is one thing that Mark Shuttleworth is doing right over at Ubuntu. I personally think that a 6mo release cycle is a bit much, however, would it be really difficult to pick a date once a year and just state something like "Every August 1rst testing is frozen and a release will be made by the end of September!"? That way the time frame between stable releases isn't absurd and everyone knows when they need to have their code in place. It isn't an arbitrary date that developers may or may not be aware of. Again, this is my opinion, but I think that would be much easier on the developers then a perpetual RC and I am all in favor of making the lives easier for the developers. If I completely misunderstood you, please correct me. I just don't see your suggestion as just a simple extra package to maintain. Just MHO. Chris Stackpole -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 17:28:38 +0100, Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: > Damon L. Chesser wrote: [...] >> Please respond back to the debian-user list. >> > You have a reply-to set you realise so replies go to yourself and not > the list. You are confusing reply-to with mail-followup-to. -- Regards,| http://users.icfo.es/Florian.Kulzer Florian | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Damon L. Chesser wrote: 1) Lets try a version of Debian Etch without the binary firmware answered by my /rant/ about firmware and clusers My point about the FSF Debian sister project was that it can be done so easily that it gives us something to aim for. I already know if such a was started - I probably wouldn't use it, but would likely just like GNU/Hurd and even ReactOS keep a close eye on it. What on earth is a cluser? And I can't see anything in your reply about firmware all I see is explanations for Ubuntu's success which I'm not in the least bit interested in. 3) Lets try a medium ground between stable and testing. I thought you said an alpha release. That is testing. I am not a developer and I don't use testing, I use Sid. In my eight years with Debian, testing seems a ... BLAH BLAH BLAH one more step will do, or how do you talk volunteers into more work? This wouldn't be one more step... as I have already explained! It won't be unstable -> testing -> alpha -> stable... that would be plain stupid. Alpha will just be a slightly re-badged ISO (one of the weekly generated ones) that represents a significant but feasibly usable step... it doesn't need a separate repository or much management at all. Please re-read what I originally wrote about this idea, I don't think you grasped how simple the suggestion was. It wasn't about Ubuntu vs Debian... Responded to your " FSF endorsing an OS that has a 'Ubuntu Base' <- (again, *vomits*)" etc etc comments. Sounds like you made it against Ubuntu. Thats my personal view, your not meant to go to red alert over it... I even put a disclaimer at the top. Agreed. Please respond back to the debian-user list. You have a reply-to set you realise so replies go to yourself and not the list. Sincerely... Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) Cyorxamp's Personal Website http://www.cyorxamp.info -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
On Monday 14 July 2008 11:31:01 am you wrote: > I hope you didn't type up all that, at least on the topics I raised... > it was a waste... ehh, practice on my composition skills. > > My topics were.. > 1) Lets try a version of Debian Etch without the binary firmware answered by my /rant/ about firmware and clusers > 2) Lets add dreamlinux and sidux to the list on debian.org and p.s. have > a little look > 3) Lets try a medium ground between stable and testing. I thought you said an alpha release. That is testing. I am not a developer and I don't use testing, I use Sid. In my eight years with Debian, testing seems a dangerous place to be. How do you propose to move packages into or maintain this pre-stable version? What criteria? This seems like Testing to me. No bugs reported >>testing, after some time, freeze, repair/fix bugs >>stable. On this point, I am not being argumentative, I just don't see what one more step will do, or how do you talk volunteers into more work? > > It wasn't about Ubuntu vs Debian... Responded to your " FSF endorsing an OS that has a 'Ubuntu Base' <- (again, *vomits*)" etc etc comments. Sounds like you made it against Ubuntu. My points were meant to show how FREE *only* is irrelavent other then an academic concept and will put you on the same path of the Dodo bird. An OS must be useable in the REAL word. RMS is all about making a living (we do disagree on HOW, sometimes, but what can you do?). If you want to avoid obscurity, has been status, you must stay relevant to your user base. If you/we/Debian are opposed to closed source, then don't use them, but you have to give *others* the choice (the Freedom part of FREE) to use them or not. But if you omit it all togther, it will go unused in the real world. My reference to Ubuntu was only meant to point out the gains they had in this regard. I would rather Debian not ignore the user base (They mostly are not, IMHO). > > Sorry if it came across like that, but lets face it that argument is > done to death. Agreed. Please respond back to the debian-user list. > > Sincerely... > > Steven Maddox > (Cyorxamp) > > Cyorxamp's Personal Website > http://www.cyorxamp.info > > Damon L. Chesser wrote: > -- Damon L. Chesser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linkedin.com/in/dchesser signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
I hope you didn't type up all that, at least on the topics I raised... it was a waste... My topics were.. 1) Lets try a version of Debian Etch without the binary firmware 2) Lets add dreamlinux and sidux to the list on debian.org and p.s. have a little look 3) Lets try a medium ground between stable and testing. It wasn't about Ubuntu vs Debian... Sorry if it came across like that, but lets face it that argument is done to death. Sincerely... Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) Cyorxamp's Personal Website http://www.cyorxamp.info Damon L. Chesser wrote: Steven hmmm? Where to start? Alpha release: We have that, it is called testing. Packages are "dumped" into Sid, after a period of time with out bug reports, it is moved into testing (10 days?) automatically. Alpha, pre-release canadate : alpha stage; a stage when it is being actively debugged (wikipedia). If you think you have issues running testing, try grabbing an alpha release of ANY other distro. Ubuntu: It is called marketing. They rule (from a market perspective). Mr. Shuttleworth is a smart, smart man. Make a desktop distro, make it work, get it out there, make it simple, make it easy, make it free of cost, THEN make a server version w/support for the enterprise. Every CTO has heard of ubuntu, so when one guy says, "Lets try Ubuntu server" they will not freak out. Who is marketing Debian. Does Debian have Community Coordinators volunteers? Search IRC. People LOVE Ubuntu (not me, btw, to many "arbitrary" file location changes, but I would recommend it to ANY new user). It is called VALUE ADDED. This is HOW RMS says you are supposed to make money off of FOSS. Charge for support. Closed source drivers. Yawn. Might as well argue for the Prolotariet to to rise up against the yoke of the elite. Been tried, old news. People just don't care, they want their "thingy" to work. Ubuntu just makes it available (and NOT off of the non-free repos), just like you can get for Debain. "Hate" Ubuntu makes no sense. Take the FOSS, modify the FOSS, give it to someone to use, that is the definition of Free. Why get bent out of shape over using the FREE part of the FOSS? Out market them, you will win. Ignore the Market, you will not "win". MS got to be number 1 not by having a superior product, but by better marketing. Canonical is in the business of MAKING money, not telling customers what they can or can not do. Does Suse make declaration it derived from slackware? No one cries foul over that omission. No body cares Ubuntu is derived from Debian ( well except for Debian devs and some fans such as myself). There is starting to be some significant diversion between Ubuntu and Debian in file system setup and packages used (for example, no inittabb in ubuntu). We shall see if they can keep up the momentum, but I think they can and will. For the most part Linux now means Ubuntu and Gnome ( I speak from the "cluser" perspective, not the reality). If you want to change this, YOU MUST market Debian (and Debian does not like to market it's self.) and you MUST make the "cluser" hardware work. You must NOT make the clueless user jump through hoops, dig through documentation, search the web, all just to make his wireless work or his webpage to display. If you have ever gotten a call from a customer asking "where did I save that file I downloaded" then you KNOW this. People, all people (aside from hobbiest) want to USE the computer, not make it work. Ubuntu mostly has solved this issue. Understand, I use Debian Sid. I am NOT a Ubuntu fan. I do use Ubuntu now and again, just to check out the evolution. But I make my Debian do what I want. Mr. Cluser does not know how, does not care, will not put the time in and will go and find something else that "works". To rant against Ubuntu or "non-free" is nonsensical. It only works from an intellectual perspective of therory. But like most academic towers, falls down quickly when faced with reality. Coders need to eat. Manufactures want to recapture capital investment. End users want the new flashy hardware thing because it fills a need they perceived. OS must work on these perceived needed devices or face becoming irelevant. The OS can not tell the user what they may use or how they may use it (hmm, sounds like DRM and secure computing). Now YOU may not use these devices and that is YOUR vote. Most will vote differently then you. Any OS the dares to tell the customer/end user how to do it, what to do, what you can not do faces market loss. Windows Vista is a case in point, vs XP. Debian is a good, stable, simple to install, simple to modify OS that fits most, if not all uses (It is The Universal Operating System). What it lacks that Ubuntu has is two fold: marketing and capital. Remember the fuss made when some devs where paid to push testing to stable? Oh the humanity! Of course, if YOU were not paid,
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
> > Steven hmmm? Where to start? Alpha release: We have that, it is called testing. Packages are "dumped" into Sid, after a period of time with out bug reports, it is moved into testing (10 days?) automatically. Alpha, pre-release canadate : alpha stage; a stage when it is being actively debugged (wikipedia). If you think you have issues running testing, try grabbing an alpha release of ANY other distro. Ubuntu: It is called marketing. They rule (from a market perspective). Mr. Shuttleworth is a smart, smart man. Make a desktop distro, make it work, get it out there, make it simple, make it easy, make it free of cost, THEN make a server version w/support for the enterprise. Every CTO has heard of ubuntu, so when one guy says, "Lets try Ubuntu server" they will not freak out. Who is marketing Debian. Does Debian have Community Coordinators volunteers? Search IRC. People LOVE Ubuntu (not me, btw, to many "arbitrary" file location changes, but I would recommend it to ANY new user). It is called VALUE ADDED. This is HOW RMS says you are supposed to make money off of FOSS. Charge for support. Closed source drivers. Yawn. Might as well argue for the Prolotariet to to rise up against the yoke of the elite. Been tried, old news. People just don't care, they want their "thingy" to work. Ubuntu just makes it available (and NOT off of the non-free repos), just like you can get for Debain. "Hate" Ubuntu makes no sense. Take the FOSS, modify the FOSS, give it to someone to use, that is the definition of Free. Why get bent out of shape over using the FREE part of the FOSS? Out market them, you will win. Ignore the Market, you will not "win". MS got to be number 1 not by having a superior product, but by better marketing. Canonical is in the business of MAKING money, not telling customers what they can or can not do. Does Suse make declaration it derived from slackware? No one cries foul over that omission. No body cares Ubuntu is derived from Debian ( well except for Debian devs and some fans such as myself). There is starting to be some significant diversion between Ubuntu and Debian in file system setup and packages used (for example, no inittabb in ubuntu). We shall see if they can keep up the momentum, but I think they can and will. For the most part Linux now means Ubuntu and Gnome ( I speak from the "cluser" perspective, not the reality). If you want to change this, YOU MUST market Debian (and Debian does not like to market it's self.) and you MUST make the "cluser" hardware work. You must NOT make the clueless user jump through hoops, dig through documentation, search the web, all just to make his wireless work or his webpage to display. If you have ever gotten a call from a customer asking "where did I save that file I downloaded" then you KNOW this. People, all people (aside from hobbiest) want to USE the computer, not make it work. Ubuntu mostly has solved this issue. Understand, I use Debian Sid. I am NOT a Ubuntu fan. I do use Ubuntu now and again, just to check out the evolution. But I make my Debian do what I want. Mr. Cluser does not know how, does not care, will not put the time in and will go and find something else that "works". To rant against Ubuntu or "non-free" is nonsensical. It only works from an intellectual perspective of therory. But like most academic towers, falls down quickly when faced with reality. Coders need to eat. Manufactures want to recapture capital investment. End users want the new flashy hardware thing because it fills a need they perceived. OS must work on these perceived needed devices or face becoming irelevant. The OS can not tell the user what they may use or how they may use it (hmm, sounds like DRM and secure computing). Now YOU may not use these devices and that is YOUR vote. Most will vote differently then you. Any OS the dares to tell the customer/end user how to do it, what to do, what you can not do faces market loss. Windows Vista is a case in point, vs XP. Debian is a good, stable, simple to install, simple to modify OS that fits most, if not all uses (It is The Universal Operating System). What it lacks that Ubuntu has is two fold: marketing and capital. Remember the fuss made when some devs where paid to push testing to stable? Oh the humanity! Of course, if YOU were not paid, it would make hard feelings. Fix those two things. Do not pin your dreams of domination on FREE. With Debian, this will not happen. To fixated on FREE. That is the choice of the devs. They do what they want, because they want to. They want Freedom. They lose The Market share as a result, but that is THEIR choice, not yours or mine. We can only choose to use it or not. For now, I choose to use it and will do so for as long as it works for MY needs. -- Damon L. Chesser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linkedin.com/in/dchesser signature.asc Desc
Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...
Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote: --- All we have to do is form an official sister project that makes a slightly tweaked version of stable (Etch) with a different Kernel that doesn't contain the binary firmware. This sister project can act as a constant reminder we use binary firmware and keep us focussed on (one day, I admit its a long way off) moving towards that goal. And hopefully eventually (personal opinion here) GNU/Hurd... so it no longer matters anyway. Debian has the upper hand in servers, stability, and multi architecture... it's time we show FSF why endorsing an OS that _only_ a x86 desktop-orientated OS is not enough. One of the reasons I chose Debian when I started in Linux years ago was because Debian was committed to Free. As I read your rant here, I find myself in basic agreement with you. However, not being a coder, and not having organizational skills to herd cats and the like, I'm not sure I have any ability to help except perhaps as a cheerleader (and being lazy and basically unexcitable, not a very good one). Still, I very much like the idea of Debian being known as the reference (i.e. the "one-and-only-True") GNU distribution. (I've always wished Hurd was mature enough to use.) --- NOTE: I only use Dreamlinux occasionally to see how its doing, I'm not a regular user and this isn't an advert - I'm using it as an example of a 'not so bad fork'. To some degree these Sporks (less than forks) make me think a win for them, is at the very least a small win for us... if we can have official KDE leaning and XFCE leaning editions of Debian (alternate CD1's) then these are like unofficial editions of debian with their own cause... but not straying totally on two feet from our project like Ubuntu. I had not been aware of DreamLinux. Generally when I recommend Linux to someone, I recommend Debian (via http://www.goodbye-microsoft.com for ease of installation) or Ubuntu (Debian-based). Now that I'm aware of DreamLinux, I'll take it for a spin in the next day or so, and probably started recommending it instead of Ubuntu. (I've always felt just a tad "dirty" recommending Ubuntu; now perhaps I can feel better about my recommendations.) --- Now for my final rant... I've been using testing (Lenny)... Every day there's a good twenty odd updates which makes sense since it is -testing-. A few months back I couldn't even boot up because lilo had updated and screwed the boot up process (don't say use grub, there's a good reason why I use lilo) but I fixed it, woo! I don't really mind the fixing of stuff and that was barely a problem (only a few hours :S). At the moment I can't use my number pad keys and every now and then focus gets stuck on an individual object (like a text box) in a program and you can't click or do anything else _on_ anything else. This occurred a could of week back... _after_ updates ;P DUN DUN DUUUNN. I've found that for me, running Sid is less painful than running Testing. -- Kent West <*)))>< http://kentwest.blogspot.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
