Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
On Monday 19 January 2004 05:27, Monique Y. Herman wrote: On 2004-01-18, Mac McCaskie penned: ROFLOL, Richard Lyons wrote: But this has been a bad week for tempers here. Quite a few rants and upsets. Has anyone else wondered if it's seasonal? Subject for a little paper, perhaps? SUBTLE - Seasonal Usenet Bad Temper Loss Episodes... Climatic Recurring Influences on the Internet Community At Large (that's CRITICAL, in case the reason for the random word order wasn't obvious). It must be bed-time... (cabin fever maybe) I was sick this weekend, which meant I sat around the house all weekend with my also-sick fiance rather than going skiing or mountain biking on a gorgeous weekend. So, here's one vote for cabin fever. oooh, I thought you were posting a lot. Get well soon. -- richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
On 2004-01-19, Richard Lyons penned: On Monday 19 January 2004 05:27, Monique Y. Herman wrote: I was sick this weekend, which meant I sat around the house all weekend with my also-sick fiance rather than going skiing or mountain biking on a gorgeous weekend. So, here's one vote for cabin fever. oooh, I thought you were posting a lot. Get well soon. Thank you! I'm still not better, so I've snagged a doctor's appointment today to make sure it's not strep throat or anything fun like that. -- monique -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
On 2004-01-18, Mac McCaskie penned: ROFLOL, Richard Lyons wrote: But this has been a bad week for tempers here. Quite a few rants and upsets. Has anyone else wondered if it's seasonal? Subject for a little paper, perhaps? SUBTLE - Seasonal Usenet Bad Temper Loss Episodes... Climatic Recurring Influences on the Internet Community At Large (that's CRITICAL, in case the reason for the random word order wasn't obvious). It must be bed-time... (cabin fever maybe) I was sick this weekend, which meant I sat around the house all weekend with my also-sick fiance rather than going skiing or mountain biking on a gorgeous weekend. So, here's one vote for cabin fever. -- monique -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
When you first boot the install cd at the boot: prompt type 'bf24'. Now you can choose ext2/3 reiserfs, more choices that redhat gives now aint it? Please before you explode again, ask nicely. -- Cheers, rinmak [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
On 2004-01-17, Joseph Guida MD penned: Sometimes I think that open source geeks intentionally complicate things to keep the borderline geeks (like me) from experimenting with and learning about O/Ses like Debian. The install menus USED TO ALLOW A CHOICE BETWEEN EXT2 and EXT3...before you loaded up the HD with the O/S. Now, you have to modify the EXT2 after the fact, running the risk of screwing up the partitions...thanks guyssome pimple faced hacker probably did this as a form of geek-like ethnic cleansing...well it worked...I'm going back to RedHat. And I really liked tinkering with Debian too...kept me thinking...so sad Coyotesx5 Scottsdale, AZ You have improved at trolling! (75) Your faction with the Debian User Community has dropped. -- monique Been too long, can't remember the exact text, so sue me -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
Bye, have a nice trip. On Fri, Jan 16, 2004 at 07:38:32PM -0700, Joseph Guida MD wrote: Sometimes I think that open source geeks intentionally complicate things to keep the borderline geeks (like me) from experimenting with and learning about O/Ses like Debian. The install menus USED TO ALLOW A CHOICE BETWEEN EXT2 and EXT3...before you loaded up the HD with the O/S. Now, you have to modify the EXT2 after the fact, running the risk of screwing up the partitions...thanks guyssome pimple faced hacker probably did this as a form of geek-like ethnic cleansing...well it worked...I'm going back to RedHat. And I really liked tinkering with Debian too...kept me thinking...so sad Coyotesx5 Scottsdale, AZ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
I will have to ditto Monique's frustration. I am a debian noobie. However, I started working with IBM PC's in '83 and later graduated to XT's on the job. The first windows I installed was 2.0 (a runtime version for a tape backup program). Over the years I've seen Novell perfect it's security and gradually fade into the background, DOS disappear, and Windows mature into the juggenaut we all love to hate. If you want Debian to eventually follow DOS, then neglect new users and ignore documentation. Keep knowledge to yourselves and allow only club members to know the secret incantations. OR, you can work to reduce the frustration and steep learning curve many noobies, including myself and Monique, face when we begin to work on our new Debian box. Mac on a soapbox McCaskie Monique Y. Herman wrote: On 2004-01-17, Joseph Guida MD penned: Sometimes I think that open source geeks intentionally complicate things to keep the borderline geeks (like me) from experimenting with and learning about O/Ses like Debian. The install menus USED TO ALLOW A CHOICE BETWEEN EXT2 and EXT3...before you loaded up the HD with the O/S. Now, you have to modify the EXT2 after the fact, running the risk of screwing up the partitions...thanks guyssome pimple faced hacker probably did this as a form of geek-like ethnic cleansing...well it worked...I'm going back to RedHat. And I really liked tinkering with Debian too...kept me thinking...so sad Coyotesx5 Scottsdale, AZ You have improved at trolling! (75) Your faction with the Debian User Community has dropped. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
On Sat, Jan 17, 2004 at 08:46:31AM -0600, Mac McCaskie wrote: I will have to ditto Monique's frustration. It wasn't Monique. If you want Debian to eventually follow DOS, then neglect new users and ignore documentation. Keep knowledge to yourselves and allow only club members to know the secret incantations. And, if you're a user and want developers to ignore you, patronize them rigid and spout rubbish about secret incantations. Sorry, but this kind of thing gets on my nerves. If you want better documentation, *help*. (This includes bug reports about poor documentation, which almost anyone can write.) But please skip the patronizing nonsense. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
Hi! The problem is not what Joseph Guida MD asked, IMHO the problem is HOW he asked. I'm a newbie too, but I managed to use Debian. I read documentation or ask people who are using Debian too. Best wishes: Viktor Hercinger -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
Colin Watson wrote: It wasn't Monique. oops, so sue me rigid and spout rubbish about secret incantations. . . patronizing nonsense. rigid? not hardly, I am asking everyone to be less rigid on what the noobies must to do. It should not be asked of them to bow down and scrape in order to gain admission into the great and sacred learning hall. Nor is it nonsense, it is a perfectly valid and logical argument that only those in posession of the required knowledge are able to perform certain tasks. Plus, the only method to aquire said knowledge is through membership of some organization and is unavailable outside of this club. Should I go into just how this membership is obtained? Now that I have your attention. Just get over yourself and look at it from the viewpoint of someone trying to learn a very complicated and disjointed system with an immense amount of mostly barely useful and out-of-date documentation . Mac so sue me McCaskie -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
On Sat, Jan 17, 2004 at 10:23:37AM -0600, Mac McCaskie wrote: Colin Watson wrote: rigid and spout rubbish about secret incantations. . . patronizing nonsense. rigid? not hardly, I am asking everyone to be less rigid on what the noobies must to do. It should not be asked of them to bow down and scrape in order to gain admission into the great and sacred learning hall. Documentation could most certainly be better. But this overblown verbiage is just that, and it won't ever make anything any better, for you or anyone else. What makes things better is when you HELP. Clear? Just get over yourself and look at it from the viewpoint of someone trying to learn a very complicated and disjointed system with an immense amount of mostly barely useful and out-of-date documentation . I did it once, too. I distinctly remember writing more documentation to explain the bits that didn't make any sense to me, rather than whining about secret societies that don't exist. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
On Sat, Jan 17, 2004 at 10:23:37AM -0600 or thereabouts, Mac McCaskie wrote: [...] Now that I have your attention. Just get over yourself and look at it from the viewpoint of someone trying to learn a very complicated and disjointed system with an immense amount of mostly barely useful and out-of-date documentation . This is a so old argument. There are plenty of commercial, newbie oriented distros available. If you want this, pay for a distro like Mandrake, SuSE, *OR*, roll up your sleeves and ask how you can help in improving the documentation. This is a volunteer effort, Debian is improved by the work and/or support (financial and otherwise). Talk is cheap, so... put your $/work where your mouth is. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
Mac McCaskie wrote: I will have to ditto Monique's frustration. Frustration over Joseph Guida MD's trolling? Excellent, that's how the majority that have responded to this post feel as well! =) I am a debian noobie. However, I started working with IBM PC's in '83 and later graduated to XT's on the job. The first windows I installed was 2.0 (a runtime version for a tape backup program). Over the years I've seen Novell perfect it's security and gradually fade into the background, DOS disappear, and Windows mature into the juggenaut we all love to hate. If you want Debian to eventually follow DOS, then neglect new users and ignore documentation. Keep knowledge to yourselves and allow only club members to know the secret incantations. Woah, doesn't seem like you're agreeing with Monique after all...mmkay. Rant WTF? Anyone that can *read* can learn the secret incantations. Documentation in its current state may not spoonfeed anyone, and it could indeed be better. You seem to forget, as did the original poster, that Debian is a volunteer effort; it is not run by a large corporation like Redhat. Personally, as a Linux user since 1997, documentation in general for Linux is *far* better than what it was back then. Yet, I managed to set up Slackware on my box (after quite a bit of RTFM) all those years ago. I can only imagine what you'd be saying back then, if you're complaining about a so-called secret society here in 2004... OR, you can work to reduce the frustration and steep learning curve many noobies, including myself and Monique, face when we begin to work on our new Debian box. Monique was complaining about trolling...try to follow the thread, it's Joseph Guida MD that you agree with. (Not to be totally mean, but if one has been working with computers since '83, I would have thought that the art of following a mailing list thread would have been mastered by now (and google).). /Rant Here's a few links that might help you out, even though you weren't *really* asking for help: Quoting HOWTO -- Read this first =P http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/documents/quotingguide.html Google http://www.google.com Google NewsGroups search http://groups.google.com How to Ask Questions the Smart Way http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html Debian Documentation http://www.debian.org/doc/ The Linux Documentation Project http://www.tldp.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
On 2004-01-17, Mac McCaskie penned: Colin Watson wrote: It wasn't Monique. oops, so sue me I was remarking on the OP's incredibly poor form in asking a question. Quite a misattribution, in this case. I'm glad that Colin pointed it out. rigid? not hardly, I am asking everyone to be less rigid on what the noobies must to do. It should not be asked of them to bow down and scrape in order to gain admission into the great and sacred learning hall. Do you really consider basic etiquette to be a debian-specific bow down and scrape requirement? I love debian, and I do try to help people in those limited places where I might have a clue. But if someone posts to a debian user list insulting the entire debian (volunteer) organization and threatening to take their ball and go home, I say, good riddance. I honestly wonder how people who are as impolitic as the OP manage to keep their day jobs. Surely, at some point, we've all learned that you catch more flies with honey? Surely, at some point, we've all learned that insults rarely lead to resolution? Surely it hasn't escaped everyone's attention that no one on this list (afaik) is paid to help, and none of the debian developers (afaik) are paid to develop, either, let alone support? Those who do provide support, documentation, and code should be commended for whatever small amount of their time they choose to donate. They certainly shouldn't be insulted. Again, it's etiquette. It's not unreasonable to expect that people learn to take a deep breath and count to ten before posting. It's not unreasonable to expect that people who want help be polite in asking for it. It's not unreasonable to ask that people who want help from volunteers first do as much as they can to help themselves. If you want a support group that will put up with that sort of rudeness and still help you, you'll need to pay for it. There are plenty of companies out there who provide support for a fee. If you want your hand to be held as you cry about how the person holding your hand isn't holding it the right way, you'll need to spend some cash. -- monique -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
On Sat, Jan 17, 2004 at 08:46:31AM -0600, Mac McCaskie wrote: If you want Debian to eventually follow DOS, then neglect new users and ignore documentation. Keep knowledge to yourselves and allow only club members to know the secret incantations. IMO one of the strengths of Debian is that it is *not* about keeping knowledge to yourselves and secret incantations. That's how *closed*-source systems go on. If I want to modify the behaviour of a Debian system I can find out how to do it. There's the man pages, /usr/share/doc/*, www.tldp.org, Google, this list... Relatively trivial changes which are a world of pain, or not possible at all, in Windoze, are not a problem in Debian. Sure, you have to think a bit. But a computer/OS/applications form an extremely complex system and it is not reasonable to expect to use it without a certain amount of thought - unless you want to sit in a playpen using plastic hammers with a Windoze logo on the ceiling. And the resources to aid your thought are freely available. All you have to pay for is your Internet connection - and you can get along pretty well if you don't even have that. OR, you can work to reduce the frustration and steep learning curve many noobies... face when we begin to work on our new Debian box. What do you think this list is doing? There are a LOT of people here who are not part of the Debian project - and certainly don't get paid - answering strangers' questions to help them get the most out of their Debian systems. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
Monique Y. Herman wrote: I love debian, and I do try to help people in those limited places where I might have a clue. But if someone posts to a debian user list insulting the entire debian (volunteer) organization and threatening to take their ball and go home, I say, good riddance. I honestly wonder how people who are as impolitic as the OP manage to keep their day jobs. Surely, at some point, we've all learned that you catch more flies with honey? snip etc etc Whereas the regulars, such as Monique above, are correct in what they say, I'd like to speak up in behalf of the OP. He's not been with us long, and doesn't yet understand the culture of this list. He got frustrated, and he vented. I've done worse, even on this list (and probably will do so in the future, maybe even with this post), and the list eventually seems to have forgotten or gotten over my mistakes (thanks, folks!). Yes, he should have been more polite, but I think he's gotten the idea of our general feelings on the topic; now it's up to him to learn to fit in. But I certainly understand his feelings of frustration and need to vent, and feel some sympathy for the guy. -- Kent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
On 2004-01-17, Kent West penned: Whereas the regulars, such as Monique above, are correct in what they say, I'd like to speak up in behalf of the OP. He's not been with us long, and doesn't yet understand the culture of this list. He got frustrated, and he vented. I've done worse, even on this list (and probably will do so in the future, maybe even with this post), and the list eventually seems to have forgotten or gotten over my mistakes (thanks, folks!). Yes, he should have been more polite, but I think he's gotten the idea of our general feelings on the topic; now it's up to him to learn to fit in. But I certainly understand his feelings of frustration and need to vent, and feel some sympathy for the guy. I agree that it can be extremely frustrating when your computer isn't doing what you want it to do. Even worse when it's preventing you from running anything at all. And I've noticed the OP has maintained radio silence; it's the rest of us carrying this debate on for him =P While I have sympathy for the frustration, I still think most of our mamas raised us better than to yell at people when we don't immediately get what we want =) I've annoyed some folks in my time, too. All you can do is keep on keepin' on, and hopefully learn from your mistakes and try not to repeat your transgressions. -- monique -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
On Saturday 17 January 2004 22:35, Kent West wrote: Monique Y. Herman wrote: [...] I honestly wonder how people who are as impolitic as the OP manage to keep their day jobs. [...] Whereas the regulars, such as Monique above, are correct in what they say, I'd like to speak up in behalf of the OP. He's not been with us long, and doesn't yet understand the culture of this list. He got frustrated, [...] Yes, he should have been more polite, but I think he's gotten the idea of our general feelings on the topic; now it's up to him to learn to fit in. [...] Well, there you have it. We are walking down the road in a town some of us know quite well, and others (me) much less well, and a visitor comes up and yells at us because the street signs are not clear enough for him. Of course it's frustrating -- I've just given up time and time again: checked into a different hotel unable to find the one I booked, so to speak. I generally find it another day (month). But this has been a bad week for tempers here. Quite a few rants and upsets. Has anyone else wondered if it's seasonal? Subject for a little paper, perhaps? SUBTLE - Seasonal Usenet Bad Temper Loss Episodes... Climatic Recurring Influences on the Internet Community At Large (that's CRITICAL, in case the reason for the random word order wasn't obvious). It must be bed-time... -- richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
ROFLOL, Richard Lyons wrote: But this has been a bad week for tempers here. Quite a few rants and upsets. Has anyone else wondered if it's seasonal? Subject for a little paper, perhaps? SUBTLE - Seasonal Usenet Bad Temper Loss Episodes... Climatic Recurring Influences on the Internet Community At Large (that's CRITICAL, in case the reason for the random word order wasn't obvious). It must be bed-time... (cabin fever maybe) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
On Sun, Jan 18, 2004 at 12:04:26AM +, Richard Lyons wrote: On Saturday 17 January 2004 22:35, Kent West wrote: Monique Y. Herman wrote: [...] I honestly wonder how people who are as impolitic as the OP manage to keep their day jobs. [...] Whereas the regulars, such as Monique above, are correct in what they say, I'd like to speak up in behalf of the OP. He's not been with us long, and doesn't yet understand the culture of this list. He got frustrated, [...] Yes, he should have been more polite, but I think he's gotten the idea of our general feelings on the topic; now it's up to him to learn to fit in. [...] Well, there you have it. We are walking down the road in a town some of us know quite well, and others (me) much less well, and a visitor comes up and yells at us because the street signs are not clear enough for him. Of course it's frustrating -- I've just given up time and time again: checked into a different hotel unable to find the one I booked, so to speak. I generally find it another day (month). But this has been a bad week for tempers here. Quite a few rants and upsets. Has anyone else wondered if it's seasonal? Subject for a little paper, perhaps? SUBTLE - Seasonal Usenet Bad Temper Loss Episodes... Climatic Recurring Influences on the Internet Community At Large (that's CRITICAL, in case the reason for the random word order wasn't obvious). It must be bed-time... -- richard Thats a good point, it might also be a little of everything, maybe these people are stressed out at work, or the moon is almost full. Maybe the only way they know how to blow off steam is to let it out on someone else. Many times that is the new user who doesn't have a clue as to what is really going on. Then you have those who at all cost feel they must enforce every little rule or tradiation, so that they feel important. I guess it all comes down to how tolerable we are to each other. I don't mind if someone tells me I am off topic, because sooner or later what goes around comes around. No one is perfect, we all make mistakes we were all new to Debian at one point. This is supposed to be a community, a community is supposed to help each other, maybe a little hand holding is in order from time to time. If something is off topic once in a while does it really hurt the community? Maybe in responding to someone's off topic subject we have made them feel better, and that we care enough to respond. Rthoreau -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Documentation and Usability was Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:23:37 -0600, Mac McCaskie [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: rigid? not hardly, I am asking everyone to be less rigid on what the noobies must to do. It should not be asked of them to bow down and scrape in order to gain admission into the great and sacred learning hall. What's in it for me? Nor is it nonsense, it is a perfectly valid and logical argument that only those in posession of the required knowledge are able to perform certain tasks. Plus, the only method to aquire said knowledge is through membership of some organization and is unavailable outside of this club. Should I go into just how this membership is obtained? Now that I have your attention. Just get over yourself and look at it from the viewpoint of someone trying to learn a very complicated and disjointed system with an immense amount of mostly barely useful and out-of-date documentation . What motivation do you think developers have to do slave away even more at the behest of people who, pardon me, seem not have to earned the right to tell me how I should be spending my time? Before you go spouting off again on what tthe developers must needs do, please think about how the system works, and what could motivate people who are already putting in time and effort to create Debian. Calling us pimply faced hackers and telling us how high to jump is not going to help anything. manoj -- Modern psychology takes completely for granted that behavior and neural function are perfectly correlated, that one is completely caused by the other. There is no separate soul or lifeforce to stick a finger into the brain now and then and make neural cells do what they would not otherwise. Actually, of course, this is a working assumption onlyIt is quite conceivable that someday the assumption will have to be rejected. But it is important also to see that we have not reached that day yet: the working assumption is a necessary one and there is no real evidence opposed to it. Our failure to solve a problem so far does not make it insoluble. One cannot logically be a determinist in physics and biology, and a mystic in psychology. Hebb, Organization of Behavior: A Neuropsychological Theory, 1949 Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EXT3 at install..no more?
Joseph Guida MD wrote: Sometimes I think that open source geeks intentionally complicate things to keep the borderline geeks (like me) from experimenting with and learning about O/Ses like Debian. The install menus USED TO ALLOW A CHOICE BETWEEN EXT2 and EXT3...before you loaded up the HD with the O/S. Now, you have to modify the EXT2 after the fact, running the risk of screwing up the partitions... Eh? If it was removed, how did I manage to format a drive using ext3 during the installation of a server last weekend??? some pimple faced hacker probably did this as a form of geek-like ethnic cleansing...well it worked... Nothat was the failure to _RTFO_ (Read The Fine Options) during the installation. It was there as an option last weekend (in Debian Woody 3.0r2), so I'm _SURE_ it's still there now. Did you install with kernel version 2.4.x ? If not, therein lies the problem... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ext3 on install
Adam McDaniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm curious if anyone here has any knowledge of Debian, in any future release, will prompt the user to install an ext3 filesystem during the initial install. It's already possible. Install normally on an ext2-partition, compile yourself a kernel with ext3 (you need patching), initialize the journal (tune2fs -j /dev/hda, for instance) and replace ext2 in fstab with ext3. e2fsprogs in (in Woody at least) are fully ext3-compliant. And by the way, if you use filesystem-type auto in /etc/fstab you can even switch between ext3-aware kernel and ont that only has ext2! Suonpää...
Re: ext3 on install
#include hallo.h Craig Dickson wrote on Tue Sep 25, 2001 um 12:45:59PM: It's easy if you're used to building your own kernels and applying patches to sources, but I'm sure there are a lot of less-technical users who would prefer to use the standard kernel-image packages. If these packages don't have ext3, those users are effectively out of luck. Okay, but as long Ext3 is a kinde experimental, it will remain in a separated kernel-image package. apt-get install kernel-image.*ext3 shouldn't be too complicated for users, IMHO. filesystems at installation time, which you can't do if the kernel image on the installation CD doesn't support ext3. Sure, you can convert ext2 When Woody comes, there will probably be a different flavour on each CD-ROM. So you have 5 CDs and depending on which you insert, you will get one of [ default | ide | ide-pci | reiserfs | udma100-ext3 ] installation systems. really would be nice not to have to go through that extra step. New users shouldn't have to think of ext3 as something that requires extra work on their part. People that don't like any extra work should not touch the config of a running system. Changing to another FS needs always some extra work, at least the journal creation (10 seconds) in the case of Ext3. packages, and it's great that we have them. I don't use them myself only because I don't use Debian-packaged kernel sources; I use Linus' official releases together with the ext3 patches created by the ext3 developers. Please learn about what a patch-package is. You don't need Debian-packaged kernel sources to use the patch-packages. A patch package contains the same patch file with some nifty scripts for make-kpkg, but does not require it. Gruss/Regards, Eduard. -- Millionen von Fliegen, die um den Dreck schwirren, können sich nicht irren (Auswertung der Win-95 Verkaufszahlen, in Chip 8/96)
Re: ext3 on install
Eduard Bloch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When Woody comes, there will probably be a different flavour on each CD-ROM. So you have 5 CDs and depending on which you insert, you will get one of [ default | ide | ide-pci | reiserfs | udma100-ext3 ] installation systems. For what it's worth, rather than support for every possible journaling filesystem, I'd like to see boot-images with support for LVM. Suonpää...
Re: ext3 on install
Eduard Bloch wrote: Okay, but as long Ext3 is a kinde experimental, it will remain in a separated kernel-image package. apt-get install kernel-image.*ext3 shouldn't be too complicated for users, IMHO. Sure, if Debian wants to supply ext3-enabled kernel-image packages. Please learn about what a patch-package is. You don't need Debian-packaged kernel sources to use the patch-packages. A patch package contains the same patch file with some nifty scripts for make-kpkg, but does not require it. But the Debian kernel-sources typically have some patches applied already; they aren't just Linus's tarball converted to .deb. So, while it generally hasn't been a problem, it's possible that an ext3 patch generated against Linus's sources might fail on sources from a Debian package. Besides, since I'm not using the Debian kernel-source package or make-kpkg, I don't see any reason to prefer the Debian ext3 patch package over the original patch. Craig
Re: ext3 on install
#include hallo.h Samuli Suonpaa wrote on Wed Sep 26, 2001 um 01:41:08PM: When Woody comes, there will probably be a different flavour on each CD-ROM. So you have 5 CDs and depending on which you insert, you will get one of [ default | ide | ide-pci | reiserfs | udma100-ext3 ] installation systems. For what it's worth, rather than support for every possible journaling filesystem, I'd like to see boot-images with support for LVM. Nothing is inpossible, but it is not easy. I guess you wish the installation system to have all needed LVM tools on the installation disk, and the installer should interact with the user, help him creating LVM, etc, etc. This would be a problem since we have very limited disk space on that floppy, and allmost all is used, at least on RISC architectures. But if you can say which _minimal_ things are needed, this may be a try. Subscribe debian-boot for doing proposals. Gruss/Regards, Eduard. -- User: Ich hätte gern ein paar MByte Speicher. malloc(): OK. Welche Sicherheiten haben sie?
Re: ext3 on install
#include hallo.h Craig Dickson wrote on Wed Sep 26, 2001 um 07:36:07AM: separated kernel-image package. apt-get install kernel-image.*ext3 shouldn't be too complicated for users, IMHO. Sure, if Debian wants to supply ext3-enabled kernel-image packages. Define want. We have allready ext3-aware kernel, e2fsprogs, boot-floppies set and a patch-package for linux-2.2 and 2.4 in Woody. But the Debian kernel-sources typically have some patches applied already; they aren't just Linus's tarball converted to .deb. So, while it generally Yes. Herbert Xu includes a handful of patches, mostly hotfixes and backports from pre-patches. That may clash with Linus' prepatches, but external stuff like ext3 should work. Current kernel-patch-2.4.9-ext3fs works with vanila and Xu's sources. Besides, since I'm not using the Debian kernel-source package or make-kpkg, I don't see any reason to prefer the Debian ext3 patch package over the original patch. Oh, in the patch-package I combined ext3-0.6.9 with the nice speedup patch from T.Y.Tso. And the patch-package for 2.2.x has been tidied up a bit ;) Gruss/Regards, Eduard. -- -640 K ought be enough Bill G. , 1984 -The Internet is not a primary goal for PC usage Bill G. , 1995 -Linux has no impact on Microsoft's strategy Bill G. , 1999 pgpkubukIZUdG.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ext3 on install
On Wednesday 26 September 2001 03:58 am, Samuli Suonpaa wrote: Adam McDaniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm curious if anyone here has any knowledge of Debian, in any future release, will prompt the user to install an ext3 filesystem during the initial install. It's already possible. snip Just what I was looking for -- giving it a go now. Thanks! Suonpää...
Re: ext3 on install
On Wednesday 26 September 2001 02:55 pm, Jason Boxman wrote: On Wednesday 26 September 2001 03:58 am, Samuli Suonpaa wrote: Adam McDaniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm curious if anyone here has any knowledge of Debian, in any future release, will prompt the user to install an ext3 filesystem during the initial install. It's already possible. snip Just what I was looking for -- giving it a go now. Thanks! Worked flawlessly on 2.4.9 with latest e2fsprogs in Woody. Suonpää...
Re: ext3 on install
Adam McDaniel wrote: I'm curious if anyone here has any knowledge of Debian, in any future release, will prompt the user to install an ext3 filesystem during the initial install. Ofcourse, im not 100% familair with the status of ext3, but is it even at that stage of production right now? Isn't Red Hat using it that way in their latest release? As for Debian, I have no inside knowledge, but I would guess that once ext3 is part of the standard Linux kernel, it would be appropriate to modify the installation scripts to offer that option. Currently ext3 is available in Alan Cox's kernels, and as a patch to Linus' kernels. Word is that Linus may integrate the code into his kernels soon, whatever that means. My hope is that it will happen in the 2.4.11-13 frame, but it might not happen until 2.5. I haven't been paying terribly close attention to Woody, but isn't it essentially frozen except for bug fixes at this point? In which case, it's unlikely to take a major change like a new filesystem. So as far as Debian Stable goes, I would be surprised to see ext3 built-in until the next release after Woody, which is to say, more than a year from now. Craig
Re: ext3 on install
Craig Dickson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Adam McDaniel wrote: I'm curious if anyone here has any knowledge of Debian, in any future release, will prompt the user to install an ext3 filesystem during the initial install. snip I haven't been paying terribly close attention to Woody, but isn't it essentially frozen except for bug fixes at this point? In which case, it's unlikely to take a major change like a new filesystem. So as far as Debian Stable goes, I would be surprised to see ext3 built-in until the next release after Woody, which is to say, more than a year from now. Of course, once ext3 is in the standard kernel, one need only create the journal file (plus one or two other tweaks like disabling ext2 fsck), reboot (assuming even that's necessary) and, voila!, one's ext2 filesystem automagically becomes ext3...
Re: ext3 on install
On Tue, Sep 25, 2001 at 11:39:35AM -0500, DvB wrote: Of course, once ext3 is in the standard kernel, one need only create the journal file (plus one or two other tweaks like disabling ext2 fsck), reboot (assuming even that's necessary) and, voila!, one's ext2 filesystem automagically becomes ext3... is that even going to be possible?, I thought upgrading to ext3 required a fresh partition. That would be cool though. Which reminds me, what exactly are the real benifits to using ext3? i know i could rtfm, but im busy perl-ing in another window :) -- Adam McDaniel Infrastructure Technology Consultant M-Tech Mercury Information Technology, Inc.
Re: ext3 on install
Adam McDaniel wrote: On Tue, Sep 25, 2001 at 11:39:35AM -0500, DvB wrote: Of course, once ext3 is in the standard kernel, one need only create the journal file (plus one or two other tweaks like disabling ext2 fsck), reboot (assuming even that's necessary) and, voila!, one's ext2 filesystem automagically becomes ext3... is that even going to be possible?, I thought upgrading to ext3 required a fresh partition. That would be cool though. Which reminds me, what exactly are the real benifits to using ext3? ext3 is simply ext2 plus journaling. No more, no less. Right now, if you want to use ext3, you simply build an ext3-enabled kernel, run tune2fs -j to set up journaling on a filesystem, and remount as ext3. DvB is correct that you can pretty trivially set up ext3 after installing, but still, it would be nice not to have to do that extra step. I'd rather be able set up a new Debian system with ext3 from the start. Craig
Re: ext3 on install
On Tue, Sep 25, 2001 at 11:58:21AM -0600, Adam McDaniel wrote: is that even going to be possible?, I thought upgrading to ext3 required a fresh partition. That would be cool though. Which reminds me, what exactly are the real benifits to using ext3? i know i could rtfm, but im busy perl-ing in another window :) ext3 offers journalling. Which basically means that the filesystem keeps a log of transactions (only write transactions I believe) to the hard disc that is never allowed to get out of sync with the contents of the hard disc. This means that if the computer goes down without the hard discs being unmounted then all you need to do is restart, the kernel will see the dirty bit set and ext3 will simply work through the journal (= log) comparing it with the hard disc, and updating the harddisc as necessary. Thus hopefully fewer fs problems and one hell of a faster fsck. You can very easily convert ext2 to ext3 so long as ext3 is in the kernel, just do: tune2fs -j /dev/hd-whatever Then update /etc/fstab and remount (oh yeah - unmount first - though strictly not necessary). If you want to play around with the boot floppies, then you can replace the kernel on the boot floppies with one that's ext3 enabled and then use that as the install kernel. You'll need another disk with the ext3 tools on it, and the installer will probably mark the partition as ext2 (I suspect it reads it from the partition table, and as there is no partition type for ext3, it will probably call it ext2), but the kernel will realise that it's ext3 when it comes to mounting it, so there shouldn't be a problem. This should work, but it'll be a little kludgy - not a slick/smooth install at all. Mind you, the last install I did was on a computer with a trashed floppy controller, so I installed from CD - potato CDs, which don't have the module in it for my NIC, so I ended up copying a 2.4 kernel deb onto a harddisc, moving the harddisc to the new machine and installing that kernel. It worked a treat! Matthew -- Matthew Sackman Nottingham, ENGLAND - The contents of this email are intended for the indicated recipient(s) only. This may or may not be indicated in the above email as it is enormously easy to fake email addresses (see the relevant RFCs). For security reasons this email is likely to be gnupg signed. On the other hand it may not be if I forgot to do so. In any case, if you are reading this on a Windows based computer then there was no point in me doing so (provided that I remembered) as your computer is most likely being used by yourself and 2.8 other people at the same time (normally without your consent). No responsibility will be accepted by anyone for any of the contents of this email. So tough. If in doubt, go compile Mozilla. pgpvVL8cy5GR1.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ext3 on install
#include hallo.h Craig Dickson wrote on Tue Sep 25, 2001 um 09:12:23AM: it's unlikely to take a major change like a new filesystem. So as far as Debian Stable goes, I would be surprised to see ext3 built-in until the next release after Woody, which is to say, more than a year from now. Well, we do allready have patch-package for 2.2.19 and 2.4.9 and kernel-image-2.2.19-udma100-ext3 in Woody. The stuff may not be in the kernel source itself, but applying a patch-package is quite easy. Gruss/Regards, Eduard. -- Wer Stabilität aufgibt, um Benutzerfreundlichkeit zu bekommen, verdient keins der beiden und bekommt meist auch keins. -- frei nach B. Franklin
Re: ext3 on install
Eduard Bloch wrote: Well, we do allready have patch-package for 2.2.19 and 2.4.9 and kernel-image-2.2.19-udma100-ext3 in Woody. The stuff may not be in the kernel source itself, but applying a patch-package is quite easy. It's easy if you're used to building your own kernels and applying patches to sources, but I'm sure there are a lot of less-technical users who would prefer to use the standard kernel-image packages. If these packages don't have ext3, those users are effectively out of luck. Also, remember that the original question had to do with setting up ext3 filesystems at installation time, which you can't do if the kernel image on the installation CD doesn't support ext3. Sure, you can convert ext2 to ext3 after installation, once you have an ext3-enabled kernel, but it really would be nice not to have to go through that extra step. New users shouldn't have to think of ext3 as something that requires extra work on their part. That said, I'm sure many people are making use of the ext3 patch packages, and it's great that we have them. I don't use them myself only because I don't use Debian-packaged kernel sources; I use Linus' official releases together with the ext3 patches created by the ext3 developers. Craig
