Re: Posting picture files

[cbannister]

On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 07:52:46PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Wed 11 May 2016 at 06:36:43 +1200, cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 11:57:34AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Sunday 01 May 2016 11:07:39 Sven Arvidsson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Do not submit an attachment larger than 10 KiB. Consider using
> > > > paste.debian.net and including a link in your post."
> > > >
> > > > From https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guide
> > > >lines.2C_and_Tips
> > > 
> > > Thanks Sven.  But it does seem rather archaic today, 100k would be a lot 
> > > more useful as attaching a well smunched screenshot is a lot less 
> > 
> > Well, it is a wiki. :)
> 
> Which anyone, including you, can contribute to. :)

Yeah, that's what I pointed out. I don't intend to go round editing posts
on other peoples behalf. :)

-- 
The media's the most powerful entity on earth. 
They have the power to make the innocent guilty 
and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power.
 -- Malcolm X

Re: Posting picture files

[Brian]

On Wed 11 May 2016 at 06:36:43 +1200, cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote:

> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 11:57:34AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Sunday 01 May 2016 11:07:39 Sven Arvidsson wrote:
> > >
> > > "Do not submit an attachment larger than 10 KiB. Consider using
> > > paste.debian.net and including a link in your post."
> > >
> > > From https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guide
> > >lines.2C_and_Tips
> > 
> > Thanks Sven.  But it does seem rather archaic today, 100k would be a lot 
> > more useful as attaching a well smunched screenshot is a lot less 
> 
> Well, it is a wiki. :)

Which anyone, including you, can contribute to. :)

Re: Posting picture files

[cbannister]

On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 11:57:34AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 01 May 2016 11:07:39 Sven Arvidsson wrote:
> >
> > "Do not submit an attachment larger than 10 KiB. Consider using
> > paste.debian.net and including a link in your post."
> >
> > From https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guide
> >lines.2C_and_Tips
> 
> Thanks Sven.  But it does seem rather archaic today, 100k would be a lot 
> more useful as attaching a well smunched screenshot is a lot less 

Well, it is a wiki. :)

That certaily seems like a random joe blogs post, considering pastebin
is not good for a user suport mailing list that archives its posts.

-- 
The media's the most powerful entity on earth. 
They have the power to make the innocent guilty 
and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power.
 -- Malcolm X

Re: Posting picture files

[cbannister]

On Tue, May 03, 2016 at 12:41:10PM -0700, Gary Roach wrote:
> >
> You know, I thought I had tried switching themes with out success. I just
> tried it again and the Oxygen theme cleared up the problem.

So this is the solution to a problem in another thread? :/

-- 
The media's the most powerful entity on earth. 
They have the power to make the innocent guilty 
and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power.
 -- Malcolm X

Re: Posting picture files

[Bob Holtzman]

On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 04:38:53PM -0700, Gary Roach wrote:

> You know, I just looked at http://paste.debian,net. The site seems to be
> more for pasting code snippets than anything else. While there is nothing
> wrong with this, I don't see why they don't just paste the code directly
> into their email message. That said, the site didn't seem to be set up very
> well for pictures. At least that is my first impression. Wouldn't be the
> first time that that was wrong though.

Run a search on "pictures pastebins".

-- 
Bob Holtzman
A man is a man who will fight with a sword or
conquer Mt. Everest in snow. But the bravest of all
owns a '34 Ford and tries for six thousand in low.

Re: Posting picture files

[Gary Roach]

On 05/03/2016 06:57 AM, heqami...@runbox.com wrote:


On 05/03/2016 05:18 AM, Gary Roach wrote:


I still haven't found a solution for the disappearance of all of my
desktop icons. They are replaced with little transparent squares. They
still work though.


Try to change the theme you are using and/or install some new themes.
and/or install a different desktop (eg gnome, kde, mate)

H.


You know, I thought I had tried switching themes with out success. I 
just tried it again and the Oxygen theme cleared up the problem. That 
fixes the problem that started this whole mess but says nothing about 
the posting problems.


I seem to struck a nerve somewhere. I think that the discussion on 
attachments, file sizes and rejected email practices has been of some 
value in itself.


Thank you everyone for your participation.

Gary R.

Re: Posting picture files

[Dan Ritter]

On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 07:08:07PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> Ralph Sanchez writes:
> > I guess a lot of those 2.1 million customers probably live in very
> > rural areas where maybe other forms aren't available, or the cost to
> > lay wire would be more then they have. My thinking is, we have GPS
> > that works nearly (ok maybe not) everywhere you'd go and want
> > internet, so why hasn't some billionaire or multi-billion or trillion
> > dollar company decided to provide a wifi type service in the same way?
> 
> GPS requires many orders of magnitude less bandwidth than does Internet
> service.  There is satellite Internet service and some people in remote
> areas use it.  However the present version has serious drawbacks.  Elon
> Musk plans to change that.

In particular, GPS is a one way service. Point your receiver at
the sky, let it see several satellite's radio beacons. Each
beacon emits a short pulse train encoding the satellite's
position and a very accurate timestamp. Your receiver does the
math and now knows where it is and what the time is.

The total bandwidth from a satellite is just over 1 megabit per
second. If it had to be shared among various receivers, it would
be completely overwhelmed by demand. But as a broadcast signal,
it is very effective.

-dsr-

Re: Posting picture files

[heqami...@runbox.com]

On 05/03/2016 05:18 AM, Gary Roach wrote:

> I still haven't found a solution for the disappearance of all of my
> desktop icons. They are replaced with little transparent squares. They
> still work though.


Try to change the theme you are using and/or install some new themes.
and/or install a different desktop (eg gnome, kde, mate)

H.

Re: Posting picture files

[Brian]

On Tue 03 May 2016 at 07:51:29 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> Brian composed on 2016-05-03 12:08 (UTC+0100):
> 
> >On Mon 02 May 2016 at 23:43:45 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> >>thousands of mailing list subscribers. This list's subscribers can see in
> >>the list posting rules that binary attachments are not to be expected unless
> >>of nominal size, thus can feel safe their disk space won't be wasted, and
> 
> >   Avoid sending large attachments.
> 
> >is the advice:
> 
> >   https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guidelines.2C_and_Tips
> says:
> 
>   "Do not submit an attachment larger than 10 KiB."

Please keep up at the back. :) That statement has been dealt with on
-user a day or so ago. It does not reflect reality on the lists today.

> The functional gist of the entirety of both URLs includes keeping
> submissions modest in size. Images attached virtually always violate that
> precept.

I do not know the size of the average screenshot but I can imagine it
would exceed what Listmaster allows. Listmaster also ensures only
modestly sized attachments sufficient for the list to function are sent
to the list.
 
> >Nothing about "binary". Nothing about "nominal".
> 
> Binary is functionally implied. When was the last time you saw any software
> user/help mailing list post arrive with an image attached that was not many
> times 10KiB (10KiB is very roughly the average size of a debian-user mailing
> list post), or an attachment that was not an image? IME it rarely happens.

When did I last see a modestly sized image on -user? Yesterday.

Non-image 400K attachments are regularly seen on some Debian lists.

> Nominal in the context used means modest, something that wouldn't burden the
> system by bloating an ordinary plain text email many orders of magnitude.

Burdening the system is a consideration but so is enabling the work via
the lists to be carried out. 
 
> >>internet bandwidth won't be wasted, on things a select few have interest in
> >>or will be opening. It's little different than the waste that is HTML
> 
> >Subscribing to a list means taking the rough with the smooth.
> 
> It does not mean liking abuse or never doing anything to dissuade abuse.

I hope you are not implying Listmaster likes, encourages or condones
abuse. :)

Re: Posting picture files

[Felix Miata]

Brian composed on 2016-05-03 12:08 (UTC+0100):


On Mon 02 May 2016 at 23:43:45 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:



thousands of mailing list subscribers. This list's subscribers can see in
the list posting rules that binary attachments are not to be expected unless
of nominal size, thus can feel safe their disk space won't be wasted, and



   Avoid sending large attachments.



is the advice:



   https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/


https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guidelines.2C_and_Tips 
says:


"Do not submit an attachment larger than 10 KiB."

The functional gist of the entirety of both URLs includes keeping submissions 
modest in size. Images attached virtually always violate that precept.



Nothing about "binary". Nothing about "nominal".


Binary is functionally implied. When was the last time you saw any software 
user/help mailing list post arrive with an image attached that was not many 
times 10KiB (10KiB is very roughly the average size of a debian-user mailing 
list post), or an attachment that was not an image? IME it rarely happens.


Nominal in the context used means modest, something that wouldn't burden the 
system by bloating an ordinary plain text email many orders of magnitude.



internet bandwidth won't be wasted, on things a select few have interest in
or will be opening. It's little different than the waste that is HTML



Subscribing to a list means taking the rough with the smooth.


It does not mean liking abuse or never doing anything to dissuade abuse.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: Posting picture files

[Brian]

On Mon 02 May 2016 at 23:43:45 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> Gary Roach composed on 2016-05-02 16:38 (UTC-0700):
> 
> >... Someone needs to figure out a way to handle this without
> >penalizing the rest of us.
> 
> Penalizing is the emailing of unsolicited binary attachments to hundreds or

Subscribers to a Debian mailing list have solicited everything which is
sent to it and which Listmaster allows to be distributed. If what they
receive is not to their liking and they cannot persuade Listmaster to
adopt their proposals, they can unsubscribe.

> thousands of mailing list subscribers. This list's subscribers can see in
> the list posting rules that binary attachments are not to be expected unless
> of nominal size, thus can feel safe their disk space won't be wasted, and

  Avoid sending large attachments.

is the advice:

  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/

Nothing about "binary". Nothing about "nominal".

The OP tried to send an attachent of undisclosed size. It failed to be
distributed and he did not get a reason in a mail. Both events have been
explained to him and an alternative avenue suggested.

> internet bandwidth won't be wasted, on things a select few have interest in
> or will be opening. It's little different than the waste that is HTML

Subscribing to a list means taking the rough with the smooth.

-- 
Brian.
Wasting bandwidth since 1996.

Re: Posting picture files

[Lisi Reisz]

On Tuesday 03 May 2016 04:18:59 Gary Roach wrote:

> I still haven't found a solution for the disappearance of all of my
> desktop icons. They are replaced with little transparent squares. They
> still work though.

This problem got lost.  I should start a new thread and explain it clearly, 
starting with: what version of what DE are you using?  What happened 
immediately before the icons disappeared?

Lisi

Re: Posting picture files

[Felix Miata]

Gene Heskett composed on 2016-05-01 11:57 (UTC-0400):


So I'd like to prose a compromise that recognizes the folks still on
dialup and at dialup speeds. Possibly paying by the minute for access.


Some pay by the byte even with high bandwidth. Not attaching binaries is 
about not being wasteful generally, including not archiving items whose 
usefulness doubtless will expire long before the archive. It's not too much 
to ask those asking for help to expend a bit of effort in order to not waste 
the resources of hundreds or thousands of recipients and their input pipelines.

--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: Posting picture files

[Felix Miata]

Gary Roach composed on 2016-05-02 16:38 (UTC-0700):


... Someone needs to figure out a way to handle this without
penalizing the rest of us.


Penalizing is the emailing of unsolicited binary attachments to hundreds or 
thousands of mailing list subscribers. This list's subscribers can see in the 
list posting rules that binary attachments are not to be expected unless of 
nominal size, thus can feel safe their disk space won't be wasted, and 
internet bandwidth won't be wasted, on things a select few have interest in 
or will be opening. It's little different than the waste that is HTML 
email[1], burdened with formatting that is magnitudes larger than the size of 
the text required to actually convey the message. Just a few clicking on a 
link to open a web-hosted image or other large size object is by far the 
lesser burden.


[1] http://fm.no-ip.com/Inet/htmlemail.html
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: Posting picture files

[Gary Roach]

On 05/02/2016 05:04 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Tuesday 03 May 2016 00:38:53 Gary Roach wrote:

Someone needs to figure out a way to handle this without
penalizing the rest of us.

"The rest of us" don't have any desire to send pictures and are not being
penalised.

Lisi


I wouldn't send pictures either except someone asked for a screen shot 
to solve my original problem. Sometimes the old "A picture is worth a 
thousand words" is true. Of course the picture may take up a thousand 
times the band width.


I still haven't found a solution for the disappearance of all of my 
desktop icons. They are replaced with little transparent squares. They 
still work though.


Gary R

Re: Posting picture files

[John Hasler]

Ralph Sanchez writes:
> I guess a lot of those 2.1 million customers probably live in very
> rural areas where maybe other forms aren't available, or the cost to
> lay wire would be more then they have. My thinking is, we have GPS
> that works nearly (ok maybe not) everywhere you'd go and want
> internet, so why hasn't some billionaire or multi-billion or trillion
> dollar company decided to provide a wifi type service in the same way?

GPS requires many orders of magnitude less bandwidth than does Internet
service.  There is satellite Internet service and some people in remote
areas use it.  However the present version has serious drawbacks.  Elon
Musk plans to change that.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Posting picture files

[Lisi Reisz]

On Tuesday 03 May 2016 00:38:53 Gary Roach wrote:
> Someone needs to figure out a way to handle this without
> penalizing the rest of us.

"The rest of us" don't have any desire to send pictures and are not being 
penalised.

Lisi

Re: Posting picture files

[Ralph Sanchez]

On the subject of Dialup, and this is me speaking for just me, but I'd
rather have to walk five blocks everytime I need internet then spend
20 a month on dial up :/ I guess a lot of those 2.1 million customers
probably live in very rural areas where maybe other forms aren't
available, or the cost to lay wire would be more then they have. My
thinking is, we have GPS that works nearly (ok maybe not) everywhere
you'd go and want internet, so why hasn't some billionaire or
multi-billion or trillion dollar company decided to provide a wifi
type service in the same way?? I'd think if my galaxy s6 can beam
receive, beam back and re-receive data from 3 different sources at the
same time fast enough to have a mildly reliable map of where I am, how
fast i'm going and traffic conditions we could access the web at the
same speed or faster. Totally off topic, sorry


On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 7:38 PM, Gary Roach  wrote:
> On 05/02/2016 07:01 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>
>> On Monday 02 May 2016 06:18:02 Vincent Lefevre wrote:
>>
>>> On 2016-04-30 23:20:07 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

 On Saturday 30 April 2016 21:12:00 Gary Roach wrote:
>
> I understand that I should not use attachments on debian-user or
> send anything other than plain text files. This leaves me with a
> problem if I wish to post a screen shot. I have been told that
> debian has a paste bin. Does anyone know the url for that bin.
>
> Gary R

 
>>>
>>> Or better: https://paste.debian.net/
>>
>> Working from 81 yo & rusty wet ram. :(  Thank you for the correction.
>>
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> You know, I just looked at http://paste.debian,net. The site seems to be
> more for pasting code snippets than anything else. While there is nothing
> wrong with this, I don't see why they don't just paste the code directly
> into their email message. That said, the site didn't seem to be set up very
> well for pictures. At least that is my first impression. Wouldn't be the
> first time that that was wrong though.
>
> This dial up thing is a pain. I just found an article from CNN that there
> are still 2.1 million aol customers using dial up connection. ($20/mo.).
> Someone needs to figure out a way to handle this without penalizing the rest
> of us.
>
> Gary R.
>
> Gary R.
>

Re: Posting picture files

[Gary Roach]

On 05/02/2016 07:01 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Monday 02 May 2016 06:18:02 Vincent Lefevre wrote:


On 2016-04-30 23:20:07 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Saturday 30 April 2016 21:12:00 Gary Roach wrote:

I understand that I should not use attachments on debian-user or
send anything other than plain text files. This leaves me with a
problem if I wish to post a screen shot. I have been told that
debian has a paste bin. Does anyone know the url for that bin.

Gary R



Or better: https://paste.debian.net/

Working from 81 yo & rusty wet ram. :(  Thank you for the correction.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
You know, I just looked at http://paste.debian,net. The site seems to be 
more for pasting code snippets than anything else. While there is 
nothing wrong with this, I don't see why they don't just paste the code 
directly into their email message. That said, the site didn't seem to be 
set up very well for pictures. At least that is my first impression. 
Wouldn't be the first time that that was wrong though.


This dial up thing is a pain. I just found an article from CNN that 
there are still 2.1 million aol customers using dial up connection. 
($20/mo.). Someone needs to figure out a way to handle this without 
penalizing the rest of us.


Gary R.

Gary R.

Re: Posting picture files

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 02 May 2016 15:01:12 Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 02 May 2016 06:18:02 Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > On 2016-04-30 23:20:07 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Saturday 30 April 2016 21:12:00 Gary Roach wrote:
> > > > I understand that I should not use attachments on debian-user or
> > > > send anything other than plain text files. This leaves me with a
> > > > problem if I wish to post a screen shot. I have been told that
> > > > debian has a paste bin. Does anyone know the url for that bin.
> > > >
> > > > Gary R
> > >
> > > 
> >
> > Or better: https://paste.debian.net/
>
> Working from 81 yo & rusty wet ram. :(  Thank you for the correction.

But using common sense and attaching is much more likely to be useful.  (See 
Brian's email.)  I make considerable use of the archives, as do many people.  
Some threads are useless without the attachments, and paste bin entries don't 
survive.  Most of us check spam folders before making a fuss about missing 
mail, so this particular case of Gary's attachment would be unlikely to help 
future generations.

AOL always was bad about blocking harmless mail.  Many eons ago I was with 
AOL, as was my ex-husband, when my granddaughter got seriously ill in Japan.  
My son was sending out bulletins by email.  They were reaching neither of her 
blood grandparents - because AOL was blocking ALL mail from the Far East!  
And in those days we couldn't get at the spam folders.

Lisi

Re: Posting picture files

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 02 May 2016 06:18:02 Vincent Lefevre wrote:

> On 2016-04-30 23:20:07 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday 30 April 2016 21:12:00 Gary Roach wrote:
> > > I understand that I should not use attachments on debian-user or
> > > send anything other than plain text files. This leaves me with a
> > > problem if I wish to post a screen shot. I have been told that
> > > debian has a paste bin. Does anyone know the url for that bin.
> > >
> > > Gary R
> >
> > 
>
> Or better: https://paste.debian.net/

Working from 81 yo & rusty wet ram. :(  Thank you for the correction.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Sorry. :-( Re: Posting picture files

[Brian]

On Mon 02 May 2016 at 08:44:53 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 09:59:13AM -0700, Gary Roach wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > That coupled with the fact that this list just throws rejects into
> > the bit bucket [...]
> 
> I doubt that part. Especially having already received rejects from
> some Debian list due to attachments (haven't tried recently, but
> might try). Perhaps it's your provider or spam filter?

  > Another known limitation in our mailing list software is that
  > most rejected e-mails get silently dropped, so the user has no
  > real indication on what went wrong. 

https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/

Re: Posting picture files

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2016-04-30 23:20:07 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Saturday 30 April 2016 21:12:00 Gary Roach wrote:
> 
> > I understand that I should not use attachments on debian-user or send
> > anything other than plain text files. This leaves me with a problem if
> > I wish to post a screen shot. I have been told that debian has a paste
> > bin. Does anyone know the url for that bin.
> >
> > Gary R
> 
> 

Or better: https://paste.debian.net/

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

Re: Sorry. :-( Re: Posting picture files

[Gary Roach]

On 05/01/2016 11:44 PM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 09:59:13AM -0700, Gary Roach wrote:

[...]


That coupled with the fact that this list just throws rejects into
the bit bucket [...]

I doubt that part. Especially having already received rejects from
some Debian list due to attachments (haven't tried recently, but
might try). Perhaps it's your provider or spam filter?

regards
- -- tomás
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlcm92UACgkQBcgs9XrR2kbtigCeP4ILfWf5VKj1PJ2VL2B1bh4d
BIcAmQE954+4XsLLhAZPKU3y0y8aegBe
=T0tI
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



Actially I read that in the debian-user instructions. I don't think I 
have ever gotten a reject notice in the years that I have used this 
mailing list. I have no idea about the practice on other lists.


Gary R.

Re: Sorry. :-( Re: Posting picture files

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 09:59:13AM -0700, Gary Roach wrote:

[...]

> That coupled with the fact that this list just throws rejects into
> the bit bucket [...]

I doubt that part. Especially having already received rejects from
some Debian list due to attachments (haven't tried recently, but
might try). Perhaps it's your provider or spam filter?

regards
- -- tomás
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlcm92UACgkQBcgs9XrR2kbtigCeP4ILfWf5VKj1PJ2VL2B1bh4d
BIcAmQE954+4XsLLhAZPKU3y0y8aegBe
=T0tI
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: Sorry. :-( Re: Posting picture files

[Gary Roach]

On 05/01/2016 10:38 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Sunday 01 May 2016 17:59:13 Gary Roach wrote:

Dial up or no dial up I really think Debian needs to loosen up a bit
on the site restrictions.

Why?  Most people manage fine.  If you would only answer the questions you are
asked, you would get more help faster.

Lisi



What questions would that be . Have I missed something.

Gary R.

Re: Posting picture files

[Richard Hector]

On 02/05/16 03:57, Gene Heskett wrote:
> So I'd like to prose a compromise that recognizes the folks still 
> on dialup and at dialup speeds. Possibly paying by the minute for 
> access.
> 
> Accept the attachment, but strip it from the message that goes
> back out to the list and store it on paste.debian.org with a 30
> day expire, substituting the URL for the attachment, placing it
> above any sig separators so the link would propagate in replies.
> 
> By this, you would protect the folks who do not have the bandwidth 
> at low cost available, while still offering a facility to show 
> those who do have the BW to participate, seeing the image/snapshot 
> linked by no more than clicking on the link in the email.
> 
> Whats not to like?

It would break signed messages, which seems to be the reason we no
longer have list-server footers on messages either.

Richard

Re: Sorry. :-( Re: Posting picture files

[Sven Arvidsson]

On Sun, 2016-05-01 at 09:59 -0700, Gary Roach wrote:
> I need to re-read Gene Haskett's suggestion again and try to
> impliment 
> it. Dial up or no dial up I really think Debian needs to loosen up a
> bit 
> on the site restrictions.

You could probably file a bug about reject notices.

As for the limits, it's probably less about users on dial up, and more
about the server needing to send out your image to all the users
subscribed to the list.

-- 
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 6FAB5CD5



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Posting picture files

[Siard]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 18:12:00 -0700, Gary Roach wrote:
> I understand that I should not use attachments on debian-user or send 
> anything other than plain text files. This leaves me with a problem
> if I wish to post a screen shot. I have been told that debian has a
> paste bin. Does anyone know the url for that bin.

There are several sites that you can use to host an image.  This is
the least bloated that I know of and it offers several types of links
(link, direct link, URL, embed code etc.) as well as a delete link:

http://postimage.org/

Re: Sorry. :-( Re: Posting picture files

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 01 May 2016 17:59:13 Gary Roach wrote:
> Dial up or no dial up I really think Debian needs to loosen up a bit
> on the site restrictions.

Why?  Most people manage fine.  If you would only answer the questions you are 
asked, you would get more help faster.

Lisi

Re: Sorry. :-( Re: Posting picture files

[Gary Roach]

On 05/01/2016 04:46 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Sunday 01 May 2016 12:33:18 Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Sunday 01 May 2016 02:12:00 Gary Roach wrote:

I understand that I should not use attachments on debian-user or send
anything other than plain text files.

I just sent a screenshot half an hour ago and it has not arrived, but
another email I sent twenty minutes later has arrived.  Although some
attachments certainly are allowed on this list, it does look as though
screenshots are not.  File too big???

Lisi



Hi all

Well a 10k limit sure explains my problems with picture attachments. 
That coupled with the fact that this list just throws rejects into the 
bit bucket pretty well  explains everything that happened to me. I know 
that there are still people out there with dial up connections (my 
brother in the wilds of New Hampshire just got high speed internet a 
couple of months ago) but would it be so bad to return rejection notices 
with a little information on why they were rejected.


I need to re-read Gene Haskett's suggestion again and try to impliment 
it. Dial up or no dial up I really think Debian needs to loosen up a bit 
on the site restrictions.


Gary R.

Re: Posting picture files

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 01 May 2016 11:07:39 Sven Arvidsson wrote:

> On Sun, 2016-05-01 at 10:39 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > I tried sending a screenshot 25 minutes ago.  It has not so far
> >
> > turned
> >
> > > up. But another email I sent 5 minutes ago has turned up.  Whilst
> > > Debian Users list certainly accepts attachments, it does look as
> > > though it doesn't like screenshots.  Files over acceptable size??
> > >
> > > Lisi
> >
> > That would be my guess Lisi.  Someone mentioned a size limit in the
> > last 
> > month or so, and I noted at the time that it seemed to be such a
> > small 
> > limit as to be essentially worthless, but I don't recall the exact 
> > figure. 
>
> "Do not submit an attachment larger than 10 KiB. Consider using
> paste.debian.net and including a link in your post."
>
> From https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guide
>lines.2C_and_Tips

Thanks Sven.  But it does seem rather archaic today, 100k would be a lot 
more useful as attaching a well smunched screenshot is a lot less 
trouble than running a browser, uploading the shot, and then sending the 
URL, particularly since yahoo posters apparently can't send the URL 
anymore from noise I am reading on yahoo hosted lists.  As I've said 
before, the screenshot doesn't lie, but the text description can when 
language barriers exist.

So I'd like to prose a compromise that recognizes the folks still on 
dialup and at dialup speeds. Possibly paying by the minute for access.

Accept the attachment, but strip it from the message that goes back out 
to the list and store it on paste.debian.org with a 30 day expire, 
substituting the URL for the attachment, placing it above any sig 
separators so the link would propagate in replies.

By this, you would protect the folks who do not have the bandwidth at low 
cost available, while still offering a facility to show those who do 
have the BW to participate, seeing the image/snapshot linked by no more 
than clicking on the link in the email.

Whats not to like?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Posting picture files

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 01 May 2016 16:07:39 Sven Arvidsson wrote:
> On Sun, 2016-05-01 at 10:39 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > I tried sending a screenshot 25 minutes ago.  It has not so far
> >
> > turned
> >
> > > up. But another email I sent 5 minutes ago has turned up.  Whilst
> > > Debian Users list certainly accepts attachments, it does look as
> > > though it doesn't like screenshots.  Files over acceptable size??
> > >
> > > Lisi
> >
> > That would be my guess Lisi.  Someone mentioned a size limit in the
> > last 
> > month or so, and I noted at the time that it seemed to be such a
> > small 
> > limit as to be essentially worthless, but I don't recall the exact 
> > figure. 
>
> "Do not submit an attachment larger than 10 KiB. Consider using
> paste.debian.net and including a link in your post."
>
> From https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guidelines
>.2C_and_Tips

Thanks, Sven.  Scanning text is one of the things I find difficult - hence 
using trial and error.

Lisi

Re: Posting picture files

[Sven Arvidsson]

On Sun, 2016-05-01 at 10:39 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I tried sending a screenshot 25 minutes ago.  It has not so far
> turned
> > up. But another email I sent 5 minutes ago has turned up.  Whilst
> > Debian Users list certainly accepts attachments, it does look as
> > though it doesn't like screenshots.  Files over acceptable size??
> >
> > Lisi
> 
> That would be my guess Lisi.  Someone mentioned a size limit in the
> last 
> month or so, and I noted at the time that it seemed to be such a
> small 
> limit as to be essentially worthless, but I don't recall the exact 
> figure.  

"Do not submit an attachment larger than 10 KiB. Consider using
paste.debian.net and including a link in your post."

From 
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guidelines.2C_and_Tips

-- 
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 6FAB5CD5



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Posting picture files

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 01 May 2016 07:28:40 Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Sunday 01 May 2016 02:12:00 Gary Roach wrote:
> > I understand that I should not use attachments on debian-user or
> > send anything other than plain text files.
>
> I tried sending a screenshot 25 minutes ago.  It has not so far turned
> up. But another email I sent 5 minutes ago has turned up.  Whilst
> Debian Users list certainly accepts attachments, it does look as
> though it doesn't like screenshots.  Files over acceptable size??
>
> Lisi

That would be my guess Lisi.  Someone mentioned a size limit in the last 
month or so, and I noted at the time that it seemed to be such a small 
limit as to be essentially worthless, but I don't recall the exact 
figure.  Usually when I need to post a screenshot, I'll smunch it with 
jpeg until its being effected visually, and send that, which will 
generally pass at srcfrg, but not here.  Which is a pity because the pix 
doesn't lie, while a text description can and does get lost in the 
translation between what I see and what my fingers type, and again as 
what I type is translated into the language the reader halfway around 
the planet thinks in.  If that fails, I'll probably put it on my web 
page.  How well that works depends on the mood the filters at yahoo are 
in today. It seems they've decided to excise urls from email posts of 
late.  Vendor lockin ID10see? IDK.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Sorry. :-( Re: Posting picture files

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 01 May 2016 12:33:18 Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Sunday 01 May 2016 02:12:00 Gary Roach wrote:
> > I understand that I should not use attachments on debian-user or send
> > anything other than plain text files.
>
> I just sent a screenshot half an hour ago and it has not arrived, but
> another email I sent twenty minutes later has arrived.  Although some
> attachments certainly are allowed on this list, it does look as though
> screenshots are not.  File too big???
>
> Lisi

Re: Posting picture files

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 01 May 2016 02:12:00 Gary Roach wrote:
> I understand that I should not use attachments on debian-user or send
> anything other than plain text files.

I just sent a screenshot half an hour ago and it has not arrived, but another 
email I sent twenty minutes later has arrived.  Although some attachments 
certainly are allowed on this list, it does look as though screenshots are 
not.  File too big???

Lisi

Re: Posting picture files

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 01 May 2016 02:12:00 Gary Roach wrote:
> I understand that I should not use attachments on debian-user or send
> anything other than plain text files.

I tried sending a screenshot 25 minutes ago.  It has not so far turned up.  
But another email I sent 5 minutes ago has turned up.  Whilst Debian Users 
list certainly accepts attachments, it does look as though it doesn't like 
screenshots.  Files over acceptable size??

Lisi

Re: Posting picture files

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 30 April 2016 21:12:00 Gary Roach wrote:

> I understand that I should not use attachments on debian-user or send
> anything other than plain text files. This leaves me with a problem if
> I wish to post a screen shot. I have been told that debian has a paste
> bin. Does anyone know the url for that bin.
>
> Gary R



Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Posting a message on all desktops

[Himanshu Shekhar]

I haven't tried yet, but shutdown -k "message" should work. However, the
message would not flash on the GUI screen of all systems. Moreover, all
users need to be connected to same host.
Rather, you could create on indicator, with python backend, listening
messages from a particular socket or port on the same network (by checking
same IP range).
You can also borrow the concept of presentation remotes as impress remote.

Please do share if you get some way.
Thanks for A2A.

Re: Posting a message on all desktops

[Timothy Marion]

Would shutdown -k work ?

On Sat, 2016-01-30 at 22:34 -0300, Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:59:13 -0500
> ken  wrote:
> 
> > > Is there a way for a system admin to post a message on the desktops of 
> > > all the machines on a LAN ?
> 
> > If all the desktops are just terminals (text), you could use "wall". 
> > But they're probably not.  (?)
> 
> No, they are all GUI
> 
> > You could put the desired announcement in /etc/motd and they would see 
> > it when they log in.
> 
> Need the post to appear immediately, not when they log in
>  
> > But I'm going to guess everyone is running GUIs on their desktops and 
> > you don't want to write code, so all I can think of-- and what we've 
> > done at every place I've worked-- is just to send everyone an email.
> 
> No good, since they will only get the message if/when they open their MUA.
> 
> I was thinking of something like a gxmessage posted simultaneously on all the 
> GUIs...
>  
> Cheers,
>  
> Ron.

Re: Posting a message on all desktops

[Teemu Likonen]

Renaud OLGIATI [2016-01-30 16:33:31-03] wrote:

> Is there a way for a system admin to post a message on the desktops of
> all the machines on a LAN ?

I'm doing the same thing in a network where every machine gets their IP
through DHCP. The network is scanned with nmap for open ssh servers.
Luckily on every machine there is always the same Linux user. Every
machine has ssh server, admin's ssh public key in .authorized_keys file
and gxmessage package.

My script that can do different maintenance tasks but here's a stripped
version that has only the message part.

--8<---cut here---start->8---
#!/bin/bash

network=192.168.0.0/24
gpgkey=08:6d:f8:f4:aa:73:5c:d9:4c:f8:02:a1:f6:12:e3:1d
gpgkeyfile=$HOME/.ssh/admin_key_rsa
userhome=/home/user

message=$(printf '%q' "$*")
timestamp=$(date '+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M')
set -- XAUTHORITY=$userhome/.Xauthority \
gxmessage -display :0 -fn "'Sans 20'" -wrap \
-geometry 800x500 -center -title "'Message $timestamp'" \
"$message"

ssh-add -l | grep -F -q -e "$gpgkey" || ssh-add "$gpgkeyfile" || exit 1

unset NFS
echo "Looking for open ssh servers in network $network..."
ips=( $(nmap -T4 -PE -sS -n -p 22 "$network" | \
awk '/report for/ {ip=$5} /open *ssh/ {print ip}') )
total=${#ips[@]}

if [ "$total" -eq 0 ]; then
echo "Didn't find any machines."
exit 1
fi

i=1
for ip in "${ips[@]}"; do
echo "$i/$total $ip: Connecting to machine..."
ssh -qf -o StrictHostKeyChecking=no -o BatchMode=yes root@"$ip" "$@"
let i++
done
--8<---cut here---end--->8---

-- 
/// Teemu Likonen   - .-..    //
// PGP: 4E10 55DC 84E9 DFF6 13D7 8557 719D 69D3 2453 9450 ///


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Posting a message on all desktops

[Ron]

On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:59:13 -0500
ken  wrote:

> > Is there a way for a system admin to post a message on the desktops of all 
> > the machines on a LAN ?

> If all the desktops are just terminals (text), you could use "wall". 
> But they're probably not.  (?)

No, they are all GUI

> You could put the desired announcement in /etc/motd and they would see 
> it when they log in.

Need the post to appear immediately, not when they log in
 
> But I'm going to guess everyone is running GUIs on their desktops and 
> you don't want to write code, so all I can think of-- and what we've 
> done at every place I've worked-- is just to send everyone an email.

No good, since they will only get the message if/when they open their MUA.

I was thinking of something like a gxmessage posted simultaneously on all the 
GUIs...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
  Paranoia is simply
an optimistic outlook on life.

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

Re: Posting a message on all desktops

[ken]

On 01/30/2016 02:33 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:

Is there a way for a system admin to post a message on the desktops of all the 
machines on a LAN ?

Cheers,

Ron.



If all the desktops are just terminals (text), you could use "wall". 
But they're probably not.  (?)


You could put the desired announcement in /etc/motd and they would see 
it when they log in.


If they all have Tk installed, you could write a bit of code to pop a 
window on each machine on the lan, but you would also need access to all 
of them.


But I'm going to guess everyone is running GUIs on their desktops and 
you don't want to write code, so all I can think of-- and what we've 
done at every place I've worked-- is just to send everyone an email.

Re: posting

[Andrei Popescu]

On Ma, 18 oct 11, 06:12:19, Tixy wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-10-17 at 21:49 +, Camaleón wrote:
> > On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:18:44 +0200, Erwan David wrote:
> >
> > > And I would add evolution to the blacklist (top posting)
> > 
> > How is that? Evolution is preventing you from moving the cursor to start 
> > writing where you want?
> > 
> > Top-posting (when not imposed) is a "user" setting, you will have to 
> > blacklist users, not the MUA.
> 
> Evolution also has a "Start typing at the bottom when replying" option,
> admittedly not on by default.

My opinion:

- cursor at the top: ok, because this is the perfect way to start 
  editing the reply (bottom-posting without cutting can be worse than 
  top-posting), otherwise you'll have to blacklist mutt+vim :p
- cursor at the top with added blank lines: it looks like an invitation 
  to top-posting, should be discouraged.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers:
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic


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Re: posting

[Tixy]

On Mon, 2011-10-17 at 21:49 +, Camaleón wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:18:44 +0200, Erwan David wrote:
>
> > And I would add evolution to the blacklist (top posting)
> 
> How is that? Evolution is preventing you from moving the cursor to start 
> writing where you want?
> 
> Top-posting (when not imposed) is a "user" setting, you will have to 
> blacklist users, not the MUA.

Evolution also has a "Start typing at the bottom when replying" option,
admittedly not on by default.

-- 
Tixy


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Re: posting

[Camaleón]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:18:44 +0200, Erwan David wrote:

> On 16/10/11 23:03, Celejar wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 17:22:00 + (UTC) Camaleón 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> ...
>> 
>>> - MUAs. I would add another section about good e-mails clients to use
>>> when dealing with mailing lists (this is my small "whitelist" input:
>>> mutt, (al)pine, thunderbird/icedove, evolution, claws and in my
>>> "blacklist" I will put all sort of commercial webmails (gmail, yahoo,
>>> hotmail), the outlook family (from express to 2010) and windows
>>> mail/live mail.
>> 
>> Add Sylpheed to the whitelist.
>> 
> 
> And I would add evolution to the blacklist (top posting)

How is that? Evolution is preventing you from moving the cursor to start 
writing where you want?

Top-posting (when not imposed) is a "user" setting, you will have to 
blacklist users, not the MUA.

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: posting

[Ralf Jung]

Hi,

> Yes, why not, they can enter to the whitelist if they operate right ;-)
> 
> Ahh, I forget about smartphones! All of these devices (specially iPhones
> and Blackberries) should go to the "blacklist" unless they can be
> configured to avoid the top-posting style >:-)
KMail works fine, as far as I can tell - at least, I got no complaints so far 
(except for when I accidentally top-posted, but that was my mistake).

Kind regards,
Ralf


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Re: posting

[Erwan David]

On 16/10/11 23:03, Celejar wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 17:22:00 + (UTC)
> Camaleón  wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
>> - MUAs. I would add another section about good e-mails clients to use 
>> when dealing with mailing lists (this is my small "whitelist" input: 
>> mutt, (al)pine, thunderbird/icedove, evolution, claws and in my 
>> "blacklist" I will put all sort of commercial webmails (gmail, yahoo, 
>> hotmail), the outlook family (from express to 2010) and windows mail/live 
>> mail.
> 
> Add Sylpheed to the whitelist.
> 
> Celejar

And I would add evolution to the blacklist (top posting)


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Re: posting

[Camaleón]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:24:32 -0600, Aaron Toponce wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 05:22:00PM +, Camaleón wrote:
>> - MUAs. I would add another section about good e-mails clients to use
>> when dealing with mailing lists (this is my small "whitelist" input:
>> mutt, (al)pine, thunderbird/icedove, evolution, claws and in my
>> "blacklist" I will put all sort of commercial webmails (gmail, yahoo,
>> hotmail), the outlook family (from express to 2010) and windows
>> mail/live mail.
> 
> I haven't seen many emails on mailing lists from Yahoo! or Hotmail, 

I did see. And most of them are badly formatted (it seems there are some 
versions of Yahoo! webmail where wrapping to 72 characters does not 
happen and the body of the message goes in just one line. The same occurs 
for some verions of Hotmail webmail.

> so I can't comment there, but the Gmail web interface adheres to the RFC
> standards, near as I can tell. I've not seen broken email threads as a
> result of using the Gmail web interface.

I don't know what is the level of adherance of Gmail's webmail to the 
RFCs but I can tell you what *does* wrong and makes it not suitable for 
its usage in mailing lists:

- Edititing the subject line breaks threads
- No "Reply-to-list" button (neither as an addon?)
- UTF-8 encoding problems that can make messages unreadeable

I have the corresponding URIs for all of these problems that are well-
known to Google but still unsolved.

> Also, the Outlook family also adheres to the RFCs (as well as some
> adendums), but it's not entirely functional on Debian, so I don't see
> the need to bring that one into the mix. Probably should only worry
> about mail clients that are shipped with Debian proper. 

I don't think so. 

I can be a Debian user *and* a Windows/MacOS/Solaris user and I can post 
my questions about Debian from any of that environments (locally, from a 
remote machine...). And when doing so I would like to know what e-mail 
clients are good or bad for posting in a mailing list. Outlook for sure 
it is not (at least the older versions, for the newer ones I can't tell).

Remember the wiki article puts the focus in "good posting" more than in 
Debian.

> If you're concerned about other operating systems, then you should
> probably add Apple Mail and Opera Mail to the "whitelist".

Yes, why not, they can enter to the whitelist if they operate right ;-)

Ahh, I forget about smartphones! All of these devices (specially iPhones 
and Blackberries) should go to the "blacklist" unless they can be 
configured to avoid the top-posting style >:-)

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: posting

[Celejar]

On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 17:22:00 + (UTC)
Camaleón  wrote:

...

> - MUAs. I would add another section about good e-mails clients to use 
> when dealing with mailing lists (this is my small "whitelist" input: 
> mutt, (al)pine, thunderbird/icedove, evolution, claws and in my 
> "blacklist" I will put all sort of commercial webmails (gmail, yahoo, 
> hotmail), the outlook family (from express to 2010) and windows mail/live 
> mail.

Add Sylpheed to the whitelist.

Celejar
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Re: posting

[Raf Czlonka]

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 06:03:21PM BST, peasth...@shaw.ca wrote:
> > Do you know of a good reference that teaches people how to post I could
> > point to in my signature?
> 
> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists would be appropriate.

http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html is also a good read.

Regards,
-- 
Raf


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Re: posting

[Camaleón]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 20:10:17 +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote:

> On Vi, 14 oct 11, 17:22:00, Camaleón wrote:
>> 
>> Okay, here you have my feedback (and thanks for caring about this).
> 
> You are, of course, aware this is a wiki and anyone can edit it, right?
> ;-)

Yes! 

And I have an account for the wiki so I can make pranks (he, he...) >>;-)

But not for the moment, Peter just asked for some feedback and I don't 
like pissing off (overriding) the work of the others unless they 
expressely tell me to do any change.

Greetings,

-- 
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Re: posting

[Andrei Popescu]

On Vi, 14 oct 11, 17:22:00, Camaleón wrote:
> 
> Okay, here you have my feedback (and thanks for caring about this).

You are, of course, aware this is a wiki and anyone can edit it, right? 
;-)

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: posting

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 09:03:21 -0800, peasthope wrote:

> From: lee 
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:01:40 +0200
>> Do you know of a good reference that teaches people how to post I could
>> point to in my signature?

I -for sure- must have missed Lee's message.

> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists would be appropriate.
> 
> At
> # Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 19:56:37 -0800 # Message-id:
> <171057104.81445.74650@cantor.invalid> I asked for feedback about the
> page but haven't seen a reply. The topic must be a low priority for most
> people.

And also this!

Okay, here you have my feedback (and thanks for caring about this).

Points *I do love* from that list:

- no html (...)
- Attribute quotes, and do so accurately. 
- Keep the discussions on the list (...)

Things I would review from the wiki article:

- Keep the uppercase for the first word in all of the points. Now some of 
the points start with uppercase and others with lowercase, this needs to 
be normalized :-)

- I would add a section about Off-topic [OT] threads and the proper way 
to manage them when they -inevitably or not- come up. I am, speaking for 
myself, very tolerable regarding off-topics (whatever the nature of the 
off-topic is) when the poster tags the thread correctly to avoid other 
user's annoyance. Off-topics are something to avoid but I wouldn't bother 
to reply to them or even to post something that could be of interested to 
the community, provided it has been tagged as [OT].

- MUAs. I would add another section about good e-mails clients to use 
when dealing with mailing lists (this is my small "whitelist" input: 
mutt, (al)pine, thunderbird/icedove, evolution, claws and in my 
"blacklist" I will put all sort of commercial webmails (gmail, yahoo, 
hotmail), the outlook family (from express to 2010) and windows mail/live 
mail.

- As for the "reply" function, the user has to keep in mind that this 
mailing list does not make "address munging" (which I think is a correct 
decision) and he/she needs to be careful when his/her MUA does not 
provide the option to "reply to the list". The user can refer to the 
above whitelist of MUAs which provide such function.

- Following messages. The user can track messages (sending/posting) by 
many ways but I would recommend mainly two methods: 1/ subscribing to the 
mailing list to receive all the posts as usual e-mails (avoid a "digest" 
format if you are going to reply to the posts) 2/ using a newsreader by 
means of a news server (e.g., gmane). The latter method does not require 
subscription and alleviates the user the odyssey of having to deal with a 
bunch of messages every day.

And I think that's all :-P

Greetings,

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Re: posting

[peasthope]

From:   lee 
Date:   Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:01:40 +0200
> Do you know of a good reference that teaches people how to post I could
> point to in my signature?

http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists would be appropriate.

At 
# Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 19:56:37 -0800
# Message-id: <171057104.81445.74650@cantor.invalid>
I asked for feedback about the page but haven't seen a reply.
The topic must be a low priority for most people.

Regards, ... Peter E.


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Re: posting

[Scott Ferguson]

On 29/06/11 02:43, Stephen Allen wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 10:12:55AM +0200, Florian Snow wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Ralf Mardorf:

> ---end quoted text---
> 
> He's a troll IMO
> 

If you are referring to Ralf - then no, he's *not* a troll.

Cheers

-- 
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People come up to me and say, "What's wrong?"
Nothing.
"Well, it takes more energy to frown than it does to smile."
Yeah, you know it takes more energy to point that out than it does to
leave me alone?"
~ Bill Hicks


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Re: posting

[Stephen Allen]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 10:12:55AM +0200, Florian Snow wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Ralf Mardorf:
> > I take this issue seriously and try my best to fix the issue, but sorry
> > everybody, I won't waste time by reading more replies regarding to
> > posting. I STOP READING AND REPLYING TO THIS THREAD [...]
> 
> Quite frankly, I find this insulting. I can understand that you're upset
> because things aren't working working the way you expect them to and I
> even agree with you that people should not be forced to work their way
> around bugs. If we have a bug here, is a different issue, though.
> Anyways, people here on the list, including me, have gone to great
> lengths to follow this thread where the usual reaction would simply have
> been to ignore you alltogether because of your broken posts. I believe
> you that you are actually trying to fix the problem. You asked a
> question about which mail clients are ok and then, just one post later,
> you decide that you aren't even interested in the answers anymore? Maybe
> I was wrong after all and you're just upset and not willing to actually
> fix a problem here. Speaking of working around bugs: Do you honestly
> think everyone here on the list should adapt to your needs even though
> most people here appear to be content?
> 
> So, read my suggestion about a MUA, maybe that will be a decent solution
> for you. Ask more questions if you need further help and if there is a
> bug, file a bug report. They are appreciated very much. But do not ask
> questions and then decide not to read the answers to them. That's just
> rude.
---end quoted text---

He's a troll IMO


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Re: posting

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 28 iun 11, 09:58:27, Florian Snow wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> 
> > What mail clients are ok?
> 
> Claws Mail might be worthwhile trying. I cannot tell you whether or not
> it replies properly to digests, but chances are it does. It has a GUI,
> many options that may be a little overwhelming at first, but also decent
> defaults so if you don't want to set certain option, Claws will most
> likely do the right thing. Just try it and if you miss a certain
> feature, there are plenty of plugins. The only thing I still miss, is a
> way to sync it with a Gmail address book.

... and IMAP IDLE :(

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: posting

[Florian Snow]

Hi!


> What mail clients are ok?

Claws Mail might be worthwhile trying. I cannot tell you whether or not
it replies properly to digests, but chances are it does. It has a GUI,
many options that may be a little overwhelming at first, but also decent
defaults so if you don't want to set certain option, Claws will most
likely do the right thing. Just try it and if you miss a certain
feature, there are plenty of plugins. The only thing I still miss, is a
way to sync it with a Gmail address book.

Best regards,
Florian


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Re: posting

[Florian Snow]

Hi everyone,

Ralf Mardorf:
> I take this issue seriously and try my best to fix the issue, but sorry
> everybody, I won't waste time by reading more replies regarding to
> posting. I STOP READING AND REPLYING TO THIS THREAD [...]

Quite frankly, I find this insulting. I can understand that you're upset
because things aren't working working the way you expect them to and I
even agree with you that people should not be forced to work their way
around bugs. If we have a bug here, is a different issue, though.
Anyways, people here on the list, including me, have gone to great
lengths to follow this thread where the usual reaction would simply have
been to ignore you alltogether because of your broken posts. I believe
you that you are actually trying to fix the problem. You asked a
question about which mail clients are ok and then, just one post later,
you decide that you aren't even interested in the answers anymore? Maybe
I was wrong after all and you're just upset and not willing to actually
fix a problem here. Speaking of working around bugs: Do you honestly
think everyone here on the list should adapt to your needs even though
most people here appear to be content?

So, read my suggestion about a MUA, maybe that will be a decent solution
for you. Ask more questions if you need further help and if there is a
bug, file a bug report. They are appreciated very much. But do not ask
questions and then decide not to read the answers to them. That's just
rude.

Best regards,
Florian


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Re: Re: posting (was: Threading)

[Stephen Allen]

On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 03:54:51PM +1000, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
> Test reply from link in archive at:
> 
>   http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/06/msg01787.html
> 
> I want to see if the reply ends up in the thread properly, I think
> it should as the html link from the online archive is this:
> 
---end quoted text---

Threaded just fine in mutt.


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Re: posting (was: Threading)

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On 06/25/2011 03:14 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote:
> On 25/06/11 15:54, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
>> Test reply from link in archive at:
>>
>>   http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/06/msg01787.html
>>
>> I want to see if the reply ends up in the thread properly, I think it
>> should as the html link from the online archive is this:
>>
>>
>> > href="mailto:debian-user@lists.debian.org?In-Reply-To=<8db18074-5ae4-4e07-aac5-c41967b5e...@queernet.org>&Subject=Re:%20Re:
>> posting (was: Threading)">debian-user@lists.debian.org
>>
>>
> Threads fine in Icedove, Kmail, and on http://lists.debian.org

Indeed, but it depends on the hability of the program handling mailto:
links in understanding that link and appropriately adding the
In-Reply-To header specified.


-- 
Out of sight is out of mind.
-- Arthur Clough

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br


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Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198

[Andrew McGlashan]

Hi,

We have at least 4 threads here now.

Looks like the digest version gives enough info. to do the replies 
properly for each post -- one way or another.


Mucking around with headers is not for everyone, and isn't possible to 
be done with digest automatically with all mailers either.  It is 
enlightening to read that some mailers can handle this properly, but I 
still won't go down the track of digest ever again.


I still think the best way to reply, if you get digest and cannot reply 
"properly" with the correct headers, is to use the online archive to reply.


Someone also mentioned that if they get too many mail messages, then 
they have an ISP problem  it is not likely the reason, message 
count, it is more likely the volume of the mailbox -- ie being too full 
of data [that is, the sum of all bytes of email in total, not the count 
of emails], particularly large email attachments, but that is a whole 
other world of discussion.


I've used digest previously, but not for a long time and not on Debian 
lists.  Most email clients or even mail delivery options (.forward for 
example) have options to filter mail to various folders.  This lessens 
the burden of overpowering the content of your inbox with loads of list 
emails and it places emails neatly into relevant folders for easier 
handling -- and it is much, much easier to work with than digest email.


Threading with proper header records is the only way to go; grouping 
entirely on subject is a very poor alternative ... it works, to a point, 
but it is very, very messy [as I said, we have at least 4 threads 
(probably more) on this single *hot* topic right now].  Why not use the 
excellent feature of proper threading via "hidden" header records?  I 
can't see how any other alternative could be better under _any_ 
circumstance, well almost -- there are always swings and roundabouts ;-)


--
Kind Regards
AndrewM

Andrew McGlashan
Broadband Solutions now including VoIP


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Re: posting

[Ralf Mardorf]

maleon and Camaleón, and it's a difference Amarok has no trouble with.

The whole point of UTF is to be able to deal with extended character
sets.

Cheers


-- 
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullsh#t. We're a
virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are.
~ Bill Hicks


--7c39597f207084ebfc442dc57bfa14ab

Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 07:33:09 +0200
From: Ralf Mardorf 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Ripping CD
Message-ID: <1308979989.16430.8.camel@debian>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mime-Version: 1.0

> email message attachment
> >  Forwarded Message 
> > From: T o n g 
> > To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> > Subject: Re: Ripping CD
> > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:23:45 + (UTC)
> >=20
> > On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 20:48:13 +0200, Andreas R=C3=B6nnquist wrote:
> >=20
> > > asunder is pretty nice for the ripping part of your request
(lightwei=
ght
> > > and GTK-based)
> >=20
> > Thanks Andreas,=20
> >=20
> > I gave asunder a whirl but somehow it always freeze on me. I guess
it=
=20
> > might be because that I'm using an old version, v1.9.3-2 on
ubuntu=20
> > maverick.

On other Linux I used another CD ripper, but for Debian I unselected
installed Asunder and it does rip the CD to .wav ok for my needs.

Asunder here is version 2.1-1 from testing.

I dunno if it check errors on CDs and I dunno if you can comfortably
convert to what ever audio format you like.

Since I'm not comfortable with 44.1 KHz @ what bit ever, I don't care
much about the quality, when ripping a CD to .wav.

Anyway, Asunder does work here.

--7c39597f207084ebfc442dc57bfa14ab

Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 01:53:54 -0400
From: William Hopkins 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Accented chars in filenames issue
Message-ID: <20110625055354.GS7152@slimer>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1;
protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mln0rGgUGuXEqmuI"
Content-Disposition: inline
Mime-Version: 1.0

--mln0rGgUGuXEqmuI
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 06/25/11 at 03:20pm, Scott Ferguson wrote:
> On 25/06/11 10:16, lee wrote:
> > Scott Ferguson  writes:
> >=20
> >> I don't think the "no white spaces" and "no accented characters"
> >> "rule" is valid in the 21st century. But if some one can put up an
> >> authoritative, and recent, reason I'll reconsider.
> >=20
> > Since (unfortunately) there isn't anything preventing users from
> > creating files with names that contain special characters or spaces,
you
> > could say that there isn't such a rule anymore.
>=20
> There is...
>=20
> >=20
> > Nonetheless I advise against it, very un-authoritatively of course,
> > because it can be troublesome to create files with special
characters or
> > spaces in their names.
> >=20
> > To give a silly example, a file named "-rf *" or "rm -rf *"=20
>=20
> I defy you to create a file with those name ;-p
> NOTE: I've tried. No point in it just being an untested opinion.

Why wouldn't you be able to? None of those are forbidden characters for
fil=
enames.

,
|liam@slimer:~/safe$ touch ./-rf\ *
|liam@slimer:~/safe$ ls
|-rf *
`---

--=20
Liam

--mln0rGgUGuXEqmuI
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
Content-Description: Digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAk4Fd/IACgkQ44gGVkxWOPS+ZgCgnWnFyS0HXt/5UG6ungcml8nD
Ty4AoOi8cvONDRK5lRnW3KQHdYZEic4+
=U7M2
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

--mln0rGgUGuXEqmuI--

--7c39597f207084ebfc442dc57bfa14ab

Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 15:54:51 +1000
From: Andrew McGlashan 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Re: posting (was: Threading)
Message-ID: <4e05782b.2020...@affinityvision.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mime-Version: 1.0

Test reply from link in archive at:

   http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/06/msg01787.html

I want to see if the reply ends up in the thread properly, I think it 
should as the html link from the online archive is this:


mailto:debian-user@lists.debian.org?In-Reply-To=<8db18074-5ae4-4e07-aac5-c41967b5e...@queernet.org>&Subject=Re:%20Re:
 
posting (was: Threading)">debian-user@lists.debian.org


-- 
Kind Regards
AndrewM

Andrew McGlashan
Broadband Solutions now including VoIP

--7c39597f207084ebfc442dc57bfa14ab

Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 01:56:4

Re: posting

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sat, 2011-06-25 at 08:43 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-06-25 at 06:10 +,
> debian-user-digest-requ...@lists.debian.org wrote:
> > Can somebody send me a full digest message, so I can see what
> > is tacked 
> > onto the end of the message?  Send as an attachment please so
> > that I can 
> > see headers as well.
> > 

Hm? It didn't work to forward as attachment.

For evolution there is the option 'Save as mbox...' only.

A digest seems to be/is a mail with attachment(s)?!



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Re: posting (was: Threading)

[Scott Ferguson]

On 25/06/11 15:54, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
> Test reply from link in archive at:
> 
>   http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/06/msg01787.html
> 
> I want to see if the reply ends up in the thread properly, I think it
> should as the html link from the online archive is this:
> 
> 
>  href="mailto:debian-user@lists.debian.org?In-Reply-To=<8db18074-5ae4-4e07-aac5-c41967b5e...@queernet.org>&Subject=Re:%20Re:
> posting (was: Threading)">debian-user@lists.debian.org
> 
> 

Threads fine in Icedove, Kmail, and on http://lists.debian.org

Cheers

-- 
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virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are.
~ Bill Hicks


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Re: posting

[Andrew McGlashan]

Roger B.A. Klorese wrote:

On Jun 22, 2011, at 7:01 AM, lee wrote:


Hm, I wonder why anyone is going to the lengths of replying to digest
messages rather than just subscribing to the list ...



So they don't need to get hundreds of separate messages?!  Most people don't treat a digest as separate from a list, just an alternate subscription format. 


It's incumbent on those who own the technology to evolve digests so it's easier 
to reply to individual posts, not on readers to jump through hoops to reply.


The answer to this problem, replying to digests, is to go to the web 
source [1] and do a reply from there.  I expect it will keep the 
threading working properly.


Can somebody send me a full digest message, so I can see what is tacked 
onto the end of the message?  Send as an attachment please so that I can 
see headers as well.


The link below is one from the individual emails that I receive and the 
one I am replying to.


[1] Archive: http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/06/msg01787.html

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AndrewM

Andrew McGlashan
Broadband Solutions now including VoIP


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Re: Re: posting (was: Threading)

[Andrew McGlashan]

Test reply from link in archive at:

  http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/06/msg01787.html

I want to see if the reply ends up in the thread properly, I think it 
should as the html link from the online archive is this:



href="mailto:debian-user@lists.debian.org?In-Reply-To=<8db18074-5ae4-4e07-aac5-c41967b5e...@queernet.org>&Subject=Re:%20Re: 
posting (was: Threading)">debian-user@lists.debian.org



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Re: posting

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 19:11:47 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> Hi Camaleón :)
> 
>> Have you considered using NNTP?
> 
> No, I need to read the Wiki
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_News_Transfer_Protocol since I
> never heard of those 4 letters before :D.

Then read, read... you'll see how good still is :-)

> PS: Please carbon copy ;)

Sorry, I can't (side effect of posting to a newsgroup).

Greetings,

-- 
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Re: posting

[Ralf Mardorf]

Hi Camaleón :)

> Have you considered using NNTP?

No, I need to read the Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_News_Transfer_Protocol since I
never heard of those 4 letters before :D.

Thanx,

Ralf

PS: Please carbon copy ;)


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Re: posting

[Camaleón]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 20:44:57 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> If I would receive all mailing lists NOT as digest it would be 800 mails
> a day. I can filter as soon as I receive mails, but if I just don't
> retrieve mails for one day, I get issues with too many mails on my
> providers server.

(...)

Have you considered using NNTP? I find it very convenient to deal with 
all of the mailing list I follow.

No filters to route e-mails to the proper folders and no mass mail 
reception, you open the newsreader and start reading and replying :-)

Greetings,

-- 
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Re: posting

[Erwan David]

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 01:17:50AM CEST, Tom Furie  said:
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 10:12:49PM +0100, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] 
> wrote:
> 
> > Not being funny but, both Thunderbird and Google mail auto trim the emails
> > for me... If your mail client can't support that, then sucks to be you?
> 
> Interesting. How do they know what you don't want to include in your
> reply?
> 
> If you're talking about them auto-hiding quoted text then that's not
> trimming. The unwanted text is still there and still has to be shunted
> over the wires.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom

If you select part of a message before answering it, quotation is trimmed to 
the selected part. 
At least with Thunderbird.


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Re: posting

[Tom Furie]

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 08:09:41AM +0200, Boblitz John wrote:

> I subscribe to the digest and my client lists each entry as a separate mail 
> as an attachment,
> so obviously it is possible to do that.
> 
> I can then chose which which topics are of interest and read only that entry 
> as a single mail item.
> 
> In this instance, I replied to Lee's mail and considering to the topic I 
> would be interested
> in knowing whether my response breaks the threading ...

No breakage here in mutt :)

What MUA are you using?

Cheers,
Tom

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Re: posting

[Tom Furie]

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 06:33:39AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> you need a header message-ID for mailing list replies?  Pardon, but
> IMO this is strange.

Why is it strange? That is the header that allows threading to work
properly. If anything, Message-ID: is more important on-list than
off-list. Without it you can't build References: or In-Reply-To:
headers, leaving only Subject: to thread by, and as we all know, that's
a terrible way to try maintaining the structure of a thread. If I change
Subject: the thread gets broken, if I use the same Subject: as someone
else, the threads most probably get merged. In fact, with *only*
Message-ID:, In-Reply-To:, References: and *no* other headers, threading
would still work.

> I guess I've solved the reply issue. When I group reply without
> marking the text that should be quoted, so without making quotation
> comfortable ;), everything seems to be formatted correctly, but sorry,
> re-editing the header would be too much effort.

Sorry, but I guess you haven't solved the reply issue. Fair enough, the
formatting is better, but bad formatting is a minor niggle compared to
having to search through potentially hundreds of mails trying to follow
a discussion.

> While it would be easier to fix the 'bug' of the mailing list digest.
> But ok, users should fit their workflow to a 'bug'.

It isn't only digests that have to be reformatted when replying. Any
mail might need tweaked when you reply, maybe there are a few levels of
quotes, or the original had too long a line length set. There are many
reasons why a mail might need reformatted, and any halfway decent MUA
will allow you to rewrap sections of text with just a few key presses or
mouse clicks. A good one should be able to do it pretty much
automatically.

> I take this issue seriously and try my best to fix the issue, but
> sorry everybody, I won't waste time by reading more replies regarding
> to posting. I STOP READING AND REPLYING TO THIS THREAD [...]

I appreciate that you're trying to fix the issue, but I think you're
approaching it from the wrong angle. Although since you've stopped
reading, I might as well stop typing.

> I'll write again to the mailing list in reply to a request, if I can
> help somebody. Or I'll write if I need help myself. Hopefully this is
> ok :).

It's good that you aren't giving up on the list, but I hope that the
person with the request is able to find your reply among all the other
messages on the list :)

Cheers,
Tom

-- 
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A:  With a blue-elephant gun.

Q:  How do you shoot a pink elephant?
A:  Twist its trunk until it turns blue, then shoot it with
a blue-elephant gun.


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Re: posting

[Ralf Mardorf]

> email message attachment
> >  Forwarded Message 
> > From: Tom Furie 
> > To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> > Subject: Re: posting
> > Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 20:49:19 +0100
> > 
> > On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 08:44:57PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > 
> > > > Ralf Mardorf  writes:
> > > >
> > > > > Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198
> > > > >
> > > > > instead of
> > > > >
> > > > > Re: posting
> > > > >
> > > > > is breaking the thread?
> > > >
> > > > Yes, your threading is broken, and you need to learn how to post.
> > > > See, for example, [1] and [2] and [3].
> > > >
> > > > We have some options here:
> > > >
> > > > 1.) filter your posts so they go to the junk group or are quietly
> > > > deleted
> > > 
> > > Now I pushed group reply, deleted the quotes, deleted the subject,
> > > copied the needed text and pasted it as quotation and copied and
> > > pasted the subject.
> > 
> > That's as may be, but your threading is still broken. The message you
> > were replying to was <871uykpj08@yun.yagibdah.de>, but you had
> > "References: <20110623173629.57ad813a7...@liszt.debian.org>", which I
> > presume is the digest. You should see "References:
> > <1308854697.7124.15.camel@debian>" and "In-Reply-To:
> > <1308854697.7124.15.camel@debian>" headers in this message, those were
> > extracted from the "Message-ID: <1308854697.7124.15.camel@debian>"
> > header in your message.

Hi Tom,

you need a header message-ID for mailing list replies?
Pardon, but IMO this is strange.

I guess I've solved the reply issue. When I group reply without marking
the text that should be quoted, so without making quotation
comfortable ;), everything seems to be formatted correctly, but sorry,
re-editing the header would be too much effort.

> > As you can see from the quoted section at the top of this message there
> > is no problem to remove the excess spacing, and re-wrap the lines, while
> > replying.

While it would be easier to fix the 'bug' of the mailing list digest.
But ok, users should fit their workflow to a 'bug'.

I take this issue seriously and try my best to fix the issue, but sorry
everybody, I won't waste time by reading more replies regarding to
posting. I STOP READING AND REPLYING TO THIS THREAD [...]

I'll write again to the mailing list in reply to a request, if I can
help somebody. Or I'll write if I need help myself. Hopefully this is
ok :).

Pardon that I really don't have the time to read the other replies.

Regards,

Ralf

[...] HERE



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Re: posting

[Scott Ferguson]

On 24/06/11 03:17, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] wrote:
> Wtf.
> 
> This thread is just beyond confusing now.
> 
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:14 PM, lee  > wrote:
> 
> Ralf Mardorf  > writes:
> 



Please *don't* top post.
Please trim irrelevant quotes.

Do you not understand the reasons, or are you a troll?

Cheers


-- 
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Re: posting

[William Hopkins]

On 06/23/11 at 10:14am, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 17:39 +1000, Scott Ferguson wrote:
> > On 23/06/11 17:02, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > > IMO Digest should be for replies too, not only to lurk the list. You can
> > > read the archive if you only would like to lurk.
> 
> > While in your opinion ("IMO") "it should be for replies too" - the fact
> > that it *doesn't work* should be a good reason not to do so. My 2c.
> 
> I can filter emails for my client, but not for the provider's server.
> I don't want to receive 800 mails a day, so I prefer digest.

These two desires, to reply to the list and to use the digest format, are
incompatible. I can understand both desires, but you're going to have
compromise one or the other (or continue to earn mistrust on the list by
messing up everyone's threads).

The thing with mail is it involves people other than yourself.. so unlike most
things in free operating systems where you can categorically 'have your own
way', you should do what is best for the group or community. In this case we've
all agreed the best thing is for you to stop replying to digests.

-- 
Liam


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Re: posting

[Tom Furie]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 10:12:49PM +0100, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] 
wrote:

> Not being funny but, both Thunderbird and Google mail auto trim the emails
> for me... If your mail client can't support that, then sucks to be you?

Interesting. How do they know what you don't want to include in your
reply?

If you're talking about them auto-hiding quoted text then that's not
trimming. The unwanted text is still there and still has to be shunted
over the wires.

Cheers,
Tom

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"There are no good ways."
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Re: posting

[lee]

Ralf Mardorf  writes:

> If I would receive all mailing lists NOT as digest it would be 800 mails
> a day. I can filter as soon as I receive mails, but if I just don't
> retrieve mails for one day, I get issues with too many mails on my
> providers server.

Then either have your provider fix that, or change to another provider
or run your own mail server.

> Now I pushed group reply, deleted the quotes, deleted the subject,
> copied the needed text and pasted it as quotation and copied and pasted
> the subject.

You are either replying to the wrong post, or you are quoting from the
wrong post:


,
| OA > (  126) [Ralf Mardorf   ] 'Re: posting
| :R+-> (  164) [Scott Ferguson ] '
| :R| \-> (   49) [Eduardo M KALINOWSKI   ] '
| :R+-> (  146) [-> debian-u...@lists.de] '
| :R| \-> (  369) [Cal Leeming [Simplicity] '
| :R\-> (   78) [Andrei POPESCU ] '
| :R  \-> (   33) <-> debian-u...@lists.de> '
| :R.   \-> (   53)  '
`


What you have quoted is from the message that has 146 lines. Your reply
is to another message, the one with 33 lines. (Yours, the one this one
is a reply to, is the last one in the above list, with 53 lines.)

Since I'm too lazy to check the references manually, I'll trust that
gnus displays threads right and assume your threading might be broken
again.

I think this might very clearly show some of the points we're trying to
make.

> Why are there spaces add between the '>'-signs and the text?
[...]
> Why is Debian digest pre-formatted this way? Just to disable that users
> can reply to the list? Why?

You could ask about the added spaces and ask other formatting questions
at the address given in the List-Help: header:
. I would support the idea that it
would be useful if the digest was designed in such a way as to make it
easy to extract all the separate messages from it to then process them
as usual with a MUA.

> Don't blame me! Blame the way Debian digest is formatted. It's neither
> my, nor Evolutions fault, when the digest is bad formatted.

Isn't it you who didn't remove the spaces at least when necessary? If
you were subscribed to the mailing list rather than to the digest,
Evolution might just get it right automatically.


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Re: posting

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

Not being funny but, both Thunderbird and Google mail auto trim the emails
for me... If your mail client can't support that, then sucks to be you?

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 8:52 PM, Mike McClain  wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 06:17:01PM +0100, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media
> Ltd] wrote:
> > Wtf.
> >
> > This thread is just beyond confusing now.
>
> Cal, you wrote 2 lines but posted +150, trim please.
>
> I subscribe to the digest and reply to it using mutt
> and 'L' rather than 'r'.
> I'm just curious if this breaks the thread but not sure how to tell.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
>
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>
>

Re: posting

[Ralf Mardorf]

> Perhaps I have a bad day ;), so I'll stop reading here. (Sorry, I miss
> other replies doing this)

Aaargh, pardon, broken English ... I didn't read other following replies
regarding to this thread, by the current Debian digest, so I might have
missed something.


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Re: posting

[Lisi]

On Thursday 23 June 2011 20:52:33 Mike McClain wrote:
> I'm just curious if this breaks the thread

Not in KMail.  It is threaded correctly.

Lisi


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Re: posting

[Mike McClain]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 06:17:01PM +0100, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] 
wrote:
> Wtf.
> 
> This thread is just beyond confusing now.

Cal, you wrote 2 lines but posted +150, trim please.

I subscribe to the digest and reply to it using mutt 
and 'L' rather than 'r'.
I'm just curious if this breaks the thread but not sure how to tell.

Thanks,
Mike


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Re: posting

[Ralf Mardorf]

> > As already mentioned by others, there are mail clients able to deal with 
> > SmartList's digests. Do yourself a favor and use one of them if you're 
> > so attached to digests (instead of normal subscription).

Perhaps I have a bad day ;), so I'll stop reading here. (Sorry, I miss
other replies doing this)
What mail clients are ok?

Just origin Windows clients as the Mozillas and
Non-GUI-learn-100-short-cut-clients, as Linux text-based clients?

If so, ok, I guess this is very, very bad, but would be Wanderlust ok? I
like this Emacs email client, regarding to it's name, since on German
the name is ambivalent :) and at least reminds me to Schubert's
brilliant Winterreise (unfortunately most of the times performed by
musicians who are stiff as a poker).

Yes, my OT is 'trollish' OTOH to insist on historically reasons to use
bad formatted digest and force users to use mail clients from the stone
age isn't a good argument, but IMO 'trollish' too.

Regards,

Ralf


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Re: posting

[Tom Furie]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 08:44:57PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> > Ralf Mardorf  writes:
> >
> > > Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198
> > >
> > > instead of
> > >
> > > Re: posting
> > >
> > > is breaking the thread?
> >
> > Yes, your threading is broken, and you need to learn how to post.
> > See, for example, [1] and [2] and [3].
> >
> > We have some options here:
> >
> > 1.) filter your posts so they go to the junk group or are quietly
> > deleted
> 
> Now I pushed group reply, deleted the quotes, deleted the subject,
> copied the needed text and pasted it as quotation and copied and
> pasted the subject.

That's as may be, but your threading is still broken. The message you
were replying to was <871uykpj08@yun.yagibdah.de>, but you had
"References: <20110623173629.57ad813a7...@liszt.debian.org>", which I
presume is the digest. You should see "References:
<1308854697.7124.15.camel@debian>" and "In-Reply-To:
<1308854697.7124.15.camel@debian>" headers in this message, those were
extracted from the "Message-ID: <1308854697.7124.15.camel@debian>"
header in your message.

That is how proper threading works, it has nothing to do with the
Subject: header.

> Why are there spaces add between the '>'-signs and the text? It's
> because they are add for the digest, I didn't add the spaces. So my
> question: Why does add Debian digest add those spaces?  To make it the
> only mailing list, were replying to the digest should become an issue?

As you can see from the quoted section at the top of this message there
is no problem to remove the excess spacing, and re-wrap the lines, while
replying.

Cheers,
Tom

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Re: posting

[Lisi]

On Thursday 23 June 2011 20:17:00 Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> Btw. some people who recommend that I should use another mailer got
> issues with signs ;), such as this one: ó

As I just said, I don't care what email client you chose to use or who is to 
blame for what.  Find a list whose policies accord with your wishes.  Enough 
already. 

Lisi


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Re: posting

[Ralf Mardorf]

Resp. the issue is that the mails are not inline for Debian digest. For
GNU mailman Digest the mails are inline.

Perhaps it would be an idea to change this for Debian digest to inline
too.

Note! Computers are made to fit to users workflows, users aren't born to
fit to computers workflows.

Using digest to reply correctly would be possible, if just the mails
would be inline. Nobody would need to change the workflow. Neither you,
nor me :).

Btw. some people who recommend that I should use another mailer got
issues with signs ;), such as this one: ó

Evolution displays signs correctly, using the defaults of the Debian
install.


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Re: posting

[Lisi]

On Thursday 23 June 2011 19:44:57 Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> Don't blame me! Blame the way Debian digest is formatted. It's neither
> my, nor Evolutions fault, when the digest is bad formatted.

This problem is endemic to digests.  Googlemail threads on "conversations" 
which do indeed go by the subject line.  But many (most?) email clients rely 
for threading on internal evidence in the headers, in the case of your email:

In-Reply-To: <20110623173629.57ad813a7...@liszt.debian.org>
References: <20110623173629.57ad813a7...@liszt.debian.org>

This breaks the threads, which can be a considerable nuisance.  This email of 
yours is all alone.  So you are effectively whistling in the wind.  This 
greatly reduces the effectiveness of anything you say.  

That's fine by me.  I just mostly ignore broken threads.  My memory is too 
poor these days for me to remember the OP of a thread that has been 
repeatedly broken.  I can remember what you have said because, frankly, I am 
beginning to find it tedious.

There is no point in saying the same thing over and over again.  You clearly 
don't like Debian or its policies.  Why on earth do you use it?

But whatever your reasons, please stop banging this tedious drum.  It doesn't 
matter whose the fault is.  It is you who are banging the drum.

Lisi


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Re: posting

[Ralf Mardorf]

> Ralf Mardorf  writes:
> 
>         > Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198
> >
> > instead of
>     >
> > Re: posting
> >
> > is breaking the thread?
> 
> Yes, your threading is broken, and you need to learn how to
> post. See,
> for example, [1] and [2] and [3].
> 
> We have some options here:
> 
> 
> 1.) filter your posts so they go to the junk group or are
> quietly
> deleted


If I would receive all mailing lists NOT as digest it would be 800 mails
a day. I can filter as soon as I receive mails, but if I just don't
retrieve mails for one day, I get issues with too many mails on my
providers server.

Now I pushed group reply, deleted the quotes, deleted the subject,
copied the needed text and pasted it as quotation and copied and pasted
the subject.

Why are there spaces add between the '>'-signs and the text? It's
because they are add for the digest, I didn't add the spaces. So my
question: Why does add Debian digest add those spaces?
To make it the only mailing list, were replying to the digest should
become an issue?

Evolution does the quotation correctly, but the digest is badly
pre-formatted.

Why is Debian digest pre-formatted this way? Just to disable that users
can reply to the list? Why?

Don't blame me! Blame the way Debian digest is formatted. It's neither
my, nor Evolutions fault, when the digest is bad formatted.


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Re: posting

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Jo, 23 iun 11, 10:14:23, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> 
> It doesn't happen that often and usually for this list. If standards are
> that important, GNU mailman would be the better choice to avoid issues.
 
What standards are broken by SmartList? (exact RFC please)

> Debian isn't fine with Firefox and Thunderbird, hence they change some
> things, add bugs and call it Iceweasel and Icedove. Debian isn't fine
> with GNU mailmen, hence they use another format for the mailing list.

Please don't do that. You sound like a troll and I (still) think you are 
not :)

Just for the record, it's Mozilla who doesn't allow Debian to use the 
trade marks Firefox(tm), Thunderbird(tm) (and the others), because of 
Debian's stable release/security policy.

As for mailman, as others have suggested it's most probably for historic 
reasons, one more argument being that alioth is using only mailman for 
all lists.

> And now replying to digest is unwanted? What is digest for? For reading
> only? There's an archive, that can be used for reading only.

As already mentioned by others, there are mail clients able to deal with 
SmartList's digests. Do yourself a favor and use one of them if you're 
so attached to digests (instead of normal subscription).

> Mozilla isn't origin Linux software. I'm using Evolution, it's still
> more buggy than Mozillas are, I can't change this OTOH did you test if
> the reformatted mails are ok when viewing them by Thunderbird instead of
> Icedove?

I doubt there are differences.

> At least my Iceweasel isn't working that good as Firefox does on other
> Linux installs.

You are surely comparing same versions, are you? How about opening a new 
thread with exact symptoms :)

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: posting

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

Wtf.

This thread is just beyond confusing now.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:14 PM, lee  wrote:

> Ralf Mardorf  writes:
>
> > Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198
> >
> > instead of
> >
> > Re: posting
> >
> > is breaking the thread?
>
> Yes, your threading is broken, and you need to learn how to post. See,
> for example, [1] and [2] and [3].
>
> We have some options here:
>
>
> 1.) filter your posts so they go to the junk group or are quietly
>deleted
>
> 2.) use scoring so your posts are marked read or aren't displayed
>anymore and ignore them
>
> 3.) tell you how to improve so that your posts become worthwhile to read
>
>
> Option 3.) is off topic, the others are probably not what you would
> want.
>
>
> [1]: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html#toc2
> [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
> [3]: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
>
> > For Evolution it usually isn't reformatted, of cause sometimes I get
> > neverending lines when I reply, but this also happens for non-digest
> > replies.
> >
> > And yes, sometimes mails are bad reformatted for Evolution too, but this
> > also isn't related to digest replies.
>
> Have you considered using a decent MUA, like mutt or gnus?
>
> > I can filter emails for my client, but not for the provider's server.
> > I don't want to receive 800 mails a day, so I prefer digest.
>
> There are only about a hundred or so mails on this list per
> day. Obviously, replying to messages received in digest format doesn't
> work for you. Digests are not meant for replying to the messages they
> contain, they are meant for reading only. You are receiving the messages
> anyway, just not as separate messages, so what difference does it make?
> Is your MUA only able to handle a very few messages?
>
> > The Debian list does cause most of the Spams I get.
>
> The amount of SPAM in this list is remarkably low, if you don't count
> badly designed posts and messages sent in HTML.
>
> How many SPAM messages did you receive in this list today or yesterday?
>
> >> Also. How someone can forget to copy the Subject line - when, if
> >> replying to normal (not Digest) messages - it's not necessary.
> >
> > It doesn't happen that often and usually for this list.
>
> And it happens for debian-user because you're using the digest in a way
> it was never meant to be used?
>
> > If standards are that important, GNU mailman would be the better
> > choice to avoid issues.
>
> Issues like?
>
> > Debian isn't fine with Firefox and Thunderbird, hence they change some
> > things, add bugs and call it Iceweasel and Icedove. Debian isn't fine
> > with GNU mailmen, hence they use another format for the mailing list.
>
> There's nothing wrong with the format of this mailing list, or is there?
>
>
> That Debian has issues with applications like Firefox, Thunderbird and
> Seamonkey is another topic. Mailman is in Debian testing; if it's not
> used to run the many Debian mailing lists, there are probably good
> reasons for that. That's a different topic as well.
>
> > And now replying to digest is unwanted? What is digest for? For reading
> > only? There's an archive, that can be used for reading only.
>
> You can reply to messages in the digest all you want; there's nothing
> unwanted about it. What is not wanted are badly designed posts, poorly
> chosen subjects and broken or missing References: and In-Reply-To:
> headers.
>
>
> Yes, as has been said a few times already, *digests are for reading
> only*. Web-based archives don't exactly replace them because viewing
> them requires you to be online all the time; search functions may be
> poor; threading might not work very well; it's probably hard to forward
> a message you find in a digest to yourself for keeping it for reference.
>
> You could be looking for a solution of a problem that prevents you from
> being able to browse a digest that is stored on a remote computer: Your
> internet connection might not be available or your X server doesn't run
> so that you're limited to the console and text-based browsers like lynx
> that don't make it exactly easy or convenient to browse web-based
> mailing list archives.[4]
>
> Anyway, digests did exist before computers were connected to the
> internet all the time and reading mailing lists usually was done while
> being offline. Still I'm not sure why they were invented, they don't
> make sense to me.
>
>
> [4]: I've almost 100k me

Re: posting

[lee]

Ralf Mardorf  writes:

> Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198
>
> instead of
>
> Re: posting
>
> is breaking the thread?

Yes, your threading is broken, and you need to learn how to post. See,
for example, [1] and [2] and [3].

We have some options here:


1.) filter your posts so they go to the junk group or are quietly
deleted

2.) use scoring so your posts are marked read or aren't displayed
anymore and ignore them

3.) tell you how to improve so that your posts become worthwhile to read


Option 3.) is off topic, the others are probably not what you would
want.


[1]: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html#toc2
[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
[3]: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855

> For Evolution it usually isn't reformatted, of cause sometimes I get
> neverending lines when I reply, but this also happens for non-digest
> replies.
>
> And yes, sometimes mails are bad reformatted for Evolution too, but this
> also isn't related to digest replies.

Have you considered using a decent MUA, like mutt or gnus?

> I can filter emails for my client, but not for the provider's server.
> I don't want to receive 800 mails a day, so I prefer digest.

There are only about a hundred or so mails on this list per
day. Obviously, replying to messages received in digest format doesn't
work for you. Digests are not meant for replying to the messages they
contain, they are meant for reading only. You are receiving the messages
anyway, just not as separate messages, so what difference does it make?
Is your MUA only able to handle a very few messages?

> The Debian list does cause most of the Spams I get.

The amount of SPAM in this list is remarkably low, if you don't count
badly designed posts and messages sent in HTML.

How many SPAM messages did you receive in this list today or yesterday?

>> Also. How someone can forget to copy the Subject line - when, if
>> replying to normal (not Digest) messages - it's not necessary.
>
> It doesn't happen that often and usually for this list.

And it happens for debian-user because you're using the digest in a way
it was never meant to be used?

> If standards are that important, GNU mailman would be the better
> choice to avoid issues.

Issues like?

> Debian isn't fine with Firefox and Thunderbird, hence they change some
> things, add bugs and call it Iceweasel and Icedove. Debian isn't fine
> with GNU mailmen, hence they use another format for the mailing list.

There's nothing wrong with the format of this mailing list, or is there?


That Debian has issues with applications like Firefox, Thunderbird and
Seamonkey is another topic. Mailman is in Debian testing; if it's not
used to run the many Debian mailing lists, there are probably good
reasons for that. That's a different topic as well.

> And now replying to digest is unwanted? What is digest for? For reading
> only? There's an archive, that can be used for reading only.

You can reply to messages in the digest all you want; there's nothing
unwanted about it. What is not wanted are badly designed posts, poorly
chosen subjects and broken or missing References: and In-Reply-To:
headers.


Yes, as has been said a few times already, *digests are for reading
only*. Web-based archives don't exactly replace them because viewing
them requires you to be online all the time; search functions may be
poor; threading might not work very well; it's probably hard to forward
a message you find in a digest to yourself for keeping it for reference.

You could be looking for a solution of a problem that prevents you from
being able to browse a digest that is stored on a remote computer: Your
internet connection might not be available or your X server doesn't run
so that you're limited to the console and text-based browsers like lynx
that don't make it exactly easy or convenient to browse web-based
mailing list archives.[4]

Anyway, digests did exist before computers were connected to the
internet all the time and reading mailing lists usually was done while
being offline. Still I'm not sure why they were invented, they don't
make sense to me.


[4]: I've almost 100k messages in debian-user, and I keep them because I
 sometimes do search them for some solution. How do you do that with
 a web-based archive?

> Mozilla isn't origin Linux software. I'm using Evolution, it's still
> more buggy than Mozillas are, I can't change this OTOH did you test if
> the reformatted mails are ok when viewing them by Thunderbird instead of
> Icedove?

You could use a decent MUA, and you're not even limited to using only
one exclusively.

Why do you use Evolution when it's so buggy? It's not like there weren't
good alternatives available

Re: posting

[lee]

Scott Ferguson  writes:

>> Scott Ferguson  writes:
>> 
>> Hm, I wonder why anyone is going to the lengths of replying to digest
>> messages rather than just subscribing to the list ...
>
> You could just ask the person

Since he´s following this mailing list, he may choose to answer.

>> Do you know of a good reference that teaches people how to post I could
>> point to in my signature?
>> 
>> 
>
> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3
> http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
>
> Though, in many cases I suspect you'll have more success if you simply
> get the instructions inscribed on a blunt, heavy, object. Like a
> "knowledge" club. :-D

Yeah, looks like it :( Perhaps I need to look into filtering messages by
the content type header again and use scoring more often since that's
more practical.


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Re: posting

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On 06/23/2011 07:28 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote:
> On 23/06/11 18:14, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198
>>
>> instead of
>>
>> Re: posting
>>
>> is breaking the thread?
> It no longer is part of the thread in threaded view with Icedove (or
> Thunderbird).
> *Likewise, in the online version (see "In-reply-to"):-
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/06/msg01837.html*

Just to make that clear, that is not because of the subject, but because
a reply to a digest will lack References and/or In-Reply-To headers
pointing to the replied-to message. And unlike the subject (which can be
fixed easily by taking a few seconds to edit it), most MUAs (if not all)
do not allow one to edit those headers.

Someone might say that asking for properly threaded messages is just
being picky, but it surely makes reading much easier and the list of
messages is much clearer.

> I did not know that. Out of curiosity I searched but couldn't quickly
> find any information about this.
> What "isn't fine" about GNU mailman" ??

I also know nothing about Debian "not liking" mailman. It's even
available in the archives.

I believe the reason Debian's mailing lists do not use mailman is that
they precede mailman. But this is just a guess.


-- 
"The great question... which I have not been able to answer... is, `What does
woman want?'"
-- Sigmund Freud

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br


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Re: posting

[Scott Ferguson]

On 23/06/11 18:14, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 17:39 +1000, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>> On 23/06/11 17:02, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 06:45 +, 
>>> debian-user-digest-requ...@lists.debian.org wrote:
>>>> On 23/06/11 00:01, lee wrote:
>>>>> Scott Ferguson  writes:
>>>>> 

>>> 
>> 
>> Is all that ^ annoying? To me it looks like someone printed out a
>> post, put it through a washing machine, then had it typed out by a
>> drunk on a popo-stick! ;-p
>> 
>> Not only is it reformatted, re-wrapped, and re-indented - the
>> Subject has been appended to, breaking the thread.
> 
> Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198
> 
> instead of
> 
> Re: posting
> 
> is breaking the thread?

It no longer is part of the thread in threaded view with Icedove (or
Thunderbird).
*Likewise, in the online version (see "In-reply-to"):-
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/06/msg01837.html*

> 
>> Maybe it works for you in Evolution Ralf - but for me in Icedove
>> you've just made a(nother) complelling argument for NOT replying to
>> Digest messages.
> 
> For Evolution it usually isn't reformatted, of cause sometimes I get 
> neverending lines when I reply, but this also happens for non-digest 
> replies.

It's reformatting in my mail client, and in the html version eg.:-
Before
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/06/msg01819.html
After
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/06/msg01837.html

> 
> And yes, sometimes mails are bad reformatted for Evolution too, but
> this also isn't related to digest replies.
> 
>> While in your opinion ("IMO") "it should be for replies too" - the
>> fact that it *doesn't work* should be a good reason not to do so.
>> My 2c.
> 
> I can filter emails for my client, but not for the provider's
> server. I don't want to receive 800 mails a day, so I prefer digest.

I can trivially filter individual messages using the filters in my email
client or at the email server (gmail) - filtering the content of a
digest edition requires me to write scripts that parse the digest.

> 
>> Both HTML and spam being sent to list is a filtering issue -
>> nothing to do with the Digest version (red herring).
> 
> The Debian list does cause most of the Spams I get.

Sure. But I fail to see the connection between spam received as a result
of publishing your email address on-line, and whether you receive the
standard, individual messages.

> 
>> Also. How someone can forget to copy the Subject line - when, if 
>> replying to normal (not Digest) messages - it's not necessary.
> 
> It doesn't happen that often and usually for this list. If standards
> are that important, GNU mailman would be the better choice to avoid
> issues.
> 
> Debian isn't fine with Firefox and Thunderbird, hence they change
> some things, add bugs and call it Iceweasel and Icedove.

That's an opinion not shared by the developer (or I).

> Debian isn't fine with GNU mailmen, hence they use another format for
> the mailing list.

I did not know that. Out of curiosity I searched but couldn't quickly
find any information about this.
What "isn't fine" about GNU mailman" ??

The vast majority of posters don't "seem" to have a problem with the
current mail server. The only complaints I've seen in the archives are
from people who want to "munge" there email addresses, and other such
stupidity as "receive only" subscriptions. I say stupid because it's
just recalcitrant laziness to demand from the list what free email
accounts already provide.

> 
> And now replying to digest is unwanted? What is digest for? For
> reading only? There's an archive, that can be used for reading only.

"unwanted". I have not said that, nor has anyone else. What is unwanted
is useless, or mangled Subjects, badly reformatted posts etc. The form
in which the poster receives the original should have no bearing on the
matter.

Let me restate my position for clarity:- whether a reply from gmane,
nginx forums, gmail, mailx, and http://lists.debian.org/debian-user, or,
*any* email client - it is possible to send useful, properly formatted
posts. Ditto for replying to posts. I've yet to hear a reasonable excuse
for doing otherwise.
I use cut and paste from the online list
(http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ what you call the archives) to
post from gmail when away from my computers, without problem.

> 
> Mozilla isn't origin Linux software. 

apropos of what? :-)
The online version of the offending messages renders the same in
Konqueror, Iceweasel, Firefox,

Re: posting

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 17:39 +1000, Scott Ferguson wrote:
> On 23/06/11 17:02, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 06:45 +,
> > debian-user-digest-requ...@lists.debian.org wrote:
> >> On 23/06/11 00:01, lee wrote:
> >> > Scott Ferguson  writes:
> >> > 
> >> >> On 22/06/11 21:53, Camaleón wrote:
> >> >>>> On 21/06/11 23:29, Camaleón wrote:
> >> >>>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:21:01 -0300, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
> >> wrote:
> >> >>>>>> But at least you did not reply to a digest.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Sure. I'd say digests are for reading more than
> >> replying.
> >> >>
> >> >> And I am in absolute agreement with you!
> >> > 
> >> > Hm, I wonder why anyone is going to the lengths of replying
> >> to digest
> >> > messages rather than just subscribing to the list ...
> >> 
> >> You could just ask the person (look for the "Digest"
> >> subject line)
> >> I've had to replied to posts from digests - I edit out the
> >> digest cruft
> >> rather than perpetuate an abomination.
> >> 
> >> For convoluted reasons I subscribe to a digest from another
> >> list - I
> >> edit my responses carefully though. While some will argue that
> >> ruins the
> >> header information - the purpose is to make indexing for
> >> searching, and
> >> threading by subject line, work. Not to provide a forensics
> >> trail for
> >> the anally retentive.
> > 
> > It's easier for GNU mailman digest. There you get the subject line and
> > you easily can copy and paste it, so at least I won't forget to do it,
> > while I sometimes forget to do it for the Debian list.
> > Another issue for the Debian digest is, that even HTML formatted spam
> > isn't eliminated, hence scrolling through the Digest is annoying. People
> > writing to the list should do it by plain text only, so it would be easy
> > to eliminate HTML based spam.
> > 
> > IMO Digest should be for replies too, not only to lurk the list. You can
> > read the archive if you only would like to lurk.
> > 
> > -- Ralf
> > 
> > 
> 
> Is all that ^ annoying?
> To me it looks like someone printed out a post, put it through a washing
> machine, then had it typed out by a drunk on a popo-stick! ;-p
> 
> Not only is it reformatted, re-wrapped, and re-indented - the Subject
> has been appended to, breaking the thread.

Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198

instead of

Re: posting

is breaking the thread?

> Maybe it works for you in Evolution Ralf - but for me in Icedove you've
> just made a(nother) complelling argument for NOT replying to Digest
> messages.

For Evolution it usually isn't reformatted, of cause sometimes I get
neverending lines when I reply, but this also happens for non-digest
replies.

And yes, sometimes mails are bad reformatted for Evolution too, but this
also isn't related to digest replies.

> While in your opinion ("IMO") "it should be for replies too" - the fact
> that it *doesn't work* should be a good reason not to do so. My 2c.

I can filter emails for my client, but not for the provider's server.
I don't want to receive 800 mails a day, so I prefer digest.

> Both HTML and spam being sent to list is a filtering issue - nothing to
> do with the Digest version (red herring).

The Debian list does cause most of the Spams I get.

> Also. How someone can forget to copy the Subject line - when, if
> replying to normal (not Digest) messages - it's not necessary.

It doesn't happen that often and usually for this list. If standards are
that important, GNU mailman would be the better choice to avoid issues.

Debian isn't fine with Firefox and Thunderbird, hence they change some
things, add bugs and call it Iceweasel and Icedove. Debian isn't fine
with GNU mailmen, hence they use another format for the mailing list.

And now replying to digest is unwanted? What is digest for? For reading
only? There's an archive, that can be used for reading only.

Mozilla isn't origin Linux software. I'm using Evolution, it's still
more buggy than Mozillas are, I can't change this OTOH did you test if
the reformatted mails are ok when viewing them by Thunderbird instead of
Icedove?

At least my Iceweasel isn't working that good as Firefox does on other
Linux installs.

I planed to read more and to write less, at the moment I reply very
often, but I won't switch between digest and "normal" when the amount of
my replies is higher or lower.

-- Ralf


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Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198

[Scott Ferguson]

On 23/06/11 17:02, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 06:45 +,
> debian-user-digest-requ...@lists.debian.org wrote:
>> On 23/06/11 00:01, lee wrote:
>> > Scott Ferguson  writes:
>> > 
>> >> On 22/06/11 21:53, Camaleón wrote:
>>  On 21/06/11 23:29, Camaleón wrote:
>> > On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:21:01 -0300, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
>> wrote:
>> >> But at least you did not reply to a digest.
>> >
>> > Sure. I'd say digests are for reading more than
>> replying.
>> >>
>> >> And I am in absolute agreement with you!
>> > 
>> > Hm, I wonder why anyone is going to the lengths of replying
>> to digest
>> > messages rather than just subscribing to the list ...
>> 
>> You could just ask the person (look for the "Digest"
>> subject line)
>> I've had to replied to posts from digests - I edit out the
>> digest cruft
>> rather than perpetuate an abomination.
>> 
>> For convoluted reasons I subscribe to a digest from another
>> list - I
>> edit my responses carefully though. While some will argue that
>> ruins the
>> header information - the purpose is to make indexing for
>> searching, and
>> threading by subject line, work. Not to provide a forensics
>> trail for
>> the anally retentive.
> 
> It's easier for GNU mailman digest. There you get the subject line and
> you easily can copy and paste it, so at least I won't forget to do it,
> while I sometimes forget to do it for the Debian list.
> Another issue for the Debian digest is, that even HTML formatted spam
> isn't eliminated, hence scrolling through the Digest is annoying. People
> writing to the list should do it by plain text only, so it would be easy
> to eliminate HTML based spam.
> 
> IMO Digest should be for replies too, not only to lurk the list. You can
> read the archive if you only would like to lurk.
> 
> -- Ralf
> 
> 

Is all that ^ annoying?
To me it looks like someone printed out a post, put it through a washing
machine, then had it typed out by a drunk on a popo-stick! ;-p

Not only is it reformatted, re-wrapped, and re-indented - the Subject
has been appended to, breaking the thread.
Maybe it works for you in Evolution Ralf - but for me in Icedove you've
just made a(nother) complelling argument for NOT replying to Digest
messages.

While in your opinion ("IMO") "it should be for replies too" - the fact
that it *doesn't work* should be a good reason not to do so. My 2c.

Both HTML and spam being sent to list is a filtering issue - nothing to
do with the Digest version (red herring).

Also. How someone can forget to copy the Subject line - when, if
replying to normal (not Digest) messages - it's not necessary.

Cheers


-- 
And I'll tell you something, too, that's starting to annoy me about
UFOs: the fact that they cross galaxies or universes to visit us, and
always end up in places like … Fyffe f#@!ing Alabama.
Maybe these aren't super-intelligent beings, you know what I mean?
~ Bill Hicks


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Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 09:02 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 06:45 +,
> debian-user-digest-requ...@lists.debian.org wrote:
> > On 23/06/11 00:01, lee wrote:
> > > Scott Ferguson  writes:
> > > 
> > >> On 22/06/11 21:53, Camaleón wrote:
> >  On 21/06/11 23:29, Camaleón wrote:
> > > On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:21:01 -0300, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
> > wrote:
> > >> But at least you did not reply to a digest.
> > >
> > > Sure. I'd say digests are for reading more than
> > replying.
> > >>
> > >> And I am in absolute agreement with you!
> > > 
> > > Hm, I wonder why anyone is going to the lengths of replying
> > to digest
> > > messages rather than just subscribing to the list ...
> > 
> > You could just ask the person (look for the "Digest"
> > subject line)
> > I've had to replied to posts from digests - I edit out the
> > digest cruft
> > rather than perpetuate an abomination.
> > 
> > For convoluted reasons I subscribe to a digest from another
> > list - I
> > edit my responses carefully though. While some will argue that
> > ruins the
> > header information - the purpose is to make indexing for
> > searching, and
> > threading by subject line, work. Not to provide a forensics
> > trail for
> > the anally retentive.
> 
> It's easier for GNU mailman digest. There you get the subject line and
> you easily can copy and paste it, so at least I won't forget to do it,
> while I sometimes forget to do it for the Debian list.
> Another issue for the Debian digest is, that even HTML formatted spam
> isn't eliminated, hence scrolling through the Digest is annoying. People
> writing to the list should do it by plain text only, so it would be easy
> to eliminate HTML based spam.
> 
> IMO Digest should be for replies too, not only to lurk the list. You can
> read the archive if you only would like to lurk.
> 
> -- Ralf

An example for GNU mailman digest a reply *with marked text* keeps the
subject:


Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 14:27:19 +0200
> From: Ralf Mardorf
> Subject: Re: [LAU] Text-based sound visualisation?


But for Debian digest a "reply" *with marked text* causes:


On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 17:36:15 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:


I mark the text before I push the reply button, to select the quote.


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Re: posting Re: debian-user-digest Digest V2011 #1198

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 06:45 +,
debian-user-digest-requ...@lists.debian.org wrote:
> On 23/06/11 00:01, lee wrote:
> > Scott Ferguson  writes:
> > 
> >> On 22/06/11 21:53, Camaleón wrote:
>  On 21/06/11 23:29, Camaleón wrote:
> > On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:21:01 -0300, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
> wrote:
> >> But at least you did not reply to a digest.
> >
> > Sure. I'd say digests are for reading more than
> replying.
> >>
> >> And I am in absolute agreement with you!
> > 
> > Hm, I wonder why anyone is going to the lengths of replying
> to digest
> > messages rather than just subscribing to the list ...
> 
> You could just ask the person (look for the "Digest"
> subject line)
> I've had to replied to posts from digests - I edit out the
> digest cruft
> rather than perpetuate an abomination.
> 
> For convoluted reasons I subscribe to a digest from another
> list - I
> edit my responses carefully though. While some will argue that
> ruins the
> header information - the purpose is to make indexing for
> searching, and
> threading by subject line, work. Not to provide a forensics
> trail for
> the anally retentive.

It's easier for GNU mailman digest. There you get the subject line and
you easily can copy and paste it, so at least I won't forget to do it,
while I sometimes forget to do it for the Debian list.
Another issue for the Debian digest is, that even HTML formatted spam
isn't eliminated, hence scrolling through the Digest is annoying. People
writing to the list should do it by plain text only, so it would be easy
to eliminate HTML based spam.

IMO Digest should be for replies too, not only to lurk the list. You can
read the archive if you only would like to lurk.

-- Ralf


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