subject:"iso"


On 8/4/24 01:13, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Sat, Aug 03, 2024 at 08:04:08PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

On 8/3/24 19:39, gene heskett wrote:

[ISO]    debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso


Wrote it to /dev/sdl, won't mount on sdl or sdl1. gparted says sdl2 is the
dos partition??

Now writing it to /dev/sdl1. card adapter traffic led blinks for either
write.

but...:
gene@coyote:~/Downloads/armbian$ sudo dd if=./debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso
bs=4096 of=/dev/sdl1
dd: error writing '/dev/sdl1': No space left on device

its a 128GB card.


That would be the whole card. Now how big is the sdl1 partition?

Could you please do a "sudo sfdisk -l /dev/sdl" (NOTE: NO PARTITION NUMBER 
SUFFIX)
for us?

128GB SD Card has already been overwritten with a ubuntu/noble server 
.img. And its waiting for me to create a 30+ char root pw.



thanks & cheers


Take care & stay well yourself Tomas.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd


On 8/4/24 09:40, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

Gene Heskett wrote:

/dev/sdl2   7783552 7798783   15232  7.4M ef EFI (FAT-12/16/32)
Now, that looks like something that might boot an intel system,


Or on one of the other systems with EFI firmware.
EFI boot program names are defined for 32-bit and for 64-bit ARM CPUs.
But - as you meanwhile pointed out - there are ARM systems without EFI.



Now power it down, pull the card and put it back in the reader, and write
the armbian server .img file to it.
/dev/sdl18192 4161535 4153344   2G 83 Linux


Are there any files matching "start*.elf" to see in that filesystem ?

   find ...where.it.is.mounted... -name 'start*.elf'

If so, then you may hope that the Debian Raspberry .img.xz and armbian
are following a similar boot path.



So the $64,000 question is: where do I get a genuine debian-arm64 .img that
will boot a pi clone using the arm bootp protocol.


The Debian wiki

   https://wiki.debian.org/RaspberryPi

does not talk of "bootp" but points to the promising download page

   https://raspi.debian.net/tested-images/

and to descriptions of particular versions like

   https://wiki.debian.org/RaspberryPi4

which talks of
   "Current status (2024-07)"
So it is actively maintained.
... and it has lots of detail and links to interesting tangents.


George at Clug wrote:

If the aim is to make a bootable USB then I like to use:
# cp debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso /dev/sdl



Dammit, people, I am NOT making a bootable /usb device/,


Seen from Linux userland, a USB stick and a SD card behave the same,
namely like conventional hard disks. After all you see yours as /dev/sdl,
a disk device operated by SCSI commands.
Insofar the advise is correct for your case.
Except it does not work, no disk activity, & no boot.  And I've tried 
debian-arm all the way back to jessie over the years. But cleaned that 
directory out yesterday.


Any differences between usual USB sticks and your storage device have for
now to be considered red herrings.


Once booted, absolutely true. Keywords "once booted"...


The obvious problem is that your system has no EFI but the Debian arm64
ISO aims at EFI as boot firmware.


Which I can't get away from on wintel stuff, but have rather studiously 
avoided it on the arms. I don't need any help from micro$haft to screw 
things up, I can do a fine job of that all by myself.


I need to get amanda running, so I'll do it on ubuntu's noble server 
.img.  If debian can't or won't support me on this, I'm also subbed to 
ubuntu's list.



Have a nice day :)


Making some progress on this would make it a very nice day.


Thomas

Thank you Thomas. Take care & stay well yourself.


.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd

2024-08-04 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Gene Heskett wrote:
> /dev/sdl2   7783552 7798783   15232  7.4M ef EFI (FAT-12/16/32)
> Now, that looks like something that might boot an intel system,

Or on one of the other systems with EFI firmware.
EFI boot program names are defined for 32-bit and for 64-bit ARM CPUs.
But - as you meanwhile pointed out - there are ARM systems without EFI.

> Now power it down, pull the card and put it back in the reader, and write
> the armbian server .img file to it.
> /dev/sdl18192 4161535 4153344   2G 83 Linux

Are there any files matching "start*.elf" to see in that filesystem ?

  find ...where.it.is.mounted... -name 'start*.elf'

If so, then you may hope that the Debian Raspberry .img.xz and armbian
are following a similar boot path.

> So the $64,000 question is: where do I get a genuine debian-arm64 .img that
> will boot a pi clone using the arm bootp protocol.

The Debian wiki

  https://wiki.debian.org/RaspberryPi

does not talk of "bootp" but points to the promising download page

  https://raspi.debian.net/tested-images/

and to descriptions of particular versions like

  https://wiki.debian.org/RaspberryPi4

which talks of
  "Current status (2024-07)"
So it is actively maintained.
... and it has lots of detail and links to interesting tangents.

George at Clug wrote:
> > If the aim is to make a bootable USB then I like to use:
> > # cp debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso /dev/sdl

> Dammit, people, I am NOT making a bootable /usb device/,

Seen from Linux userland, a USB stick and a SD card behave the same,
namely like conventional hard disks. After all you see yours as /dev/sdl,
a disk device operated by SCSI commands.
Insofar the advise is correct for your case.

Any differences between usual USB sticks and your storage device have for
now to be considered red herrings.

The obvious problem is that your system has no EFI but the Debian arm64
ISO aims at EFI as boot firmware.

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd


On 8/4/24 06:58, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

Gene Heskett wrote

[ISO]   debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso


and later:

Well, I'm tired of trying to make debian-arm work so you guys aren't
hassling me for bringing armbian questions here,


I make a new attempt of an answer to your initial question


... > can this iso be put on a micro-sd


   Yes. But it is possibly not intended for Raspberry Pi with 64 bit CPU.


--
Reasoning:

It seems that Debian on Raspberry Pi has its own means of installation

   https://raspi.debian.net/tested-images/

This is probaly more specialized than the arm64 ISO.
It has at least 4 different "Bookworm" images depending on the raspi
version.

I downloaded and inspected
   https://raspi.debian.net/tested/20231109_raspi_4_bookworm.img.xz

fdisk yields:

   Disklabel type: dos
   ...
   Device Boot   Start End Sectors  Size Id Type
   20231109_raspi_4_bookworm.img1 8192 1048575 1040384  508M  c W95 
FAT32 (
   20231109_raspi_4_bookworm.img2  1048576 511 40714242G 83 Linux


Mounting partition 1 shows among a few other files, a bunch of executable
programs:

   -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2973536 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start.elf
   -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2249280 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start4.elf
   -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  803964 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start4cd.elf
   -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 3744808 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start4db.elf
   -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2996680 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start4x.elf
   -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  803964 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start_cd.elf
   -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 4816712 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start_db.elf
   -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 3720360 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start_x.elf

Maybe you got similar ones in your armbian system.
Obviously this image does not aim much at EFI firmware. At least no
/EFI/BOOT directory is to see.

There are no files in the Debian arm64 ISO with a name matching "*.elf".
The wiki
   https://wiki.debian.org/RaspberryPi
does not point to arm64 ISOs but rather to
   https://wiki.debian.org/RaspberryPiImages
which points to
   https://raspi.debian.net/

Partition 2 is according to "file" an ext4 "(needs journal recovery)".
Its content looks more like GNU/Linux:
   ...
   -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 30964073 Nov  9  2023 
/mnt/ext4/boot/initrd.img-6.1.0-13-arm64
   -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 32622528 Sep 29  2023 
/mnt/ext4/boot/vmlinuz-6.1.0-13-arm64
   ...


Interesting, bookmarked. thanks.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Booting BananaPi from sd [WAS Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd]


On 8/4/24 06:55, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Sun, Aug 04, 2024 at 02:01:24AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

On 8/4/24 01:17, David Wright wrote:

On Sat 03 Aug 2024 at 20:04:08 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:

On 8/3/24 19:39, gene heskett wrote:

[ISO]    debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso



This will work on an arm64 board potentially that is in a desktop/server.
It will also work on a Raspbberry Pi 4 that's booting from a port of
Tianocore. (EDK - the UEFI basis) [For the Pi 4, Pete Batard has done
a port].


Links?

Yes, no response, written to /dev/sdl or to .dev/sdl1. The armbian .img's
for noble and bookworm written to /dev/sdl, booted to a cli in 30 or 40
seconds.



RIGHT - see previous note about Armbian and how they take the vendor
core support and make it boot. You've got a .img file - kernel, initrd
and (probably) u-boot in one file. You put it in and it boots.
The 30-40s is probably u-boot kicking in, initialising hardware
including any dtb and then booting up.
It does seem to be a 2 stage thing. But it does by at a fraction of C 
speed, to fast to capture.


If you _know_ how to build u-boot for yourself, you can possibly
get it to boot anything arbitrary but at that point it gets complicated:
see, for example 
https://www.earth.li/~noodles/blog/2023/10/debian-on-bpi-m2-zero.html

I've built an rt-preempt 4.19-something, but at the time I wasn't fam 
enough with u-boot or bootp in some circles so my middle 1940's 11x54 
Sheldon lathe I run with linuxcnc was analized and I made a 27 megabyte 
tarball that when unpacked to the sd card, installed enough of two 
directory's that it booted to the realtime version for the next 7 years. 
Folks said I couldn't run it with a pi, so I did it anyway.  Its worked 
so well that if I could still get the interface cards, I'd convert my 
other cnc'd machines to it. intel stuff works well too but is a huge 
power pig. 10x or more than the pi & monitor which totals about 25 watts.



or did you mystify yourself by trying to mount the partitions and
then abandon the process in favour of:


Now writing it to /dev/sdl1.


that didn't work either. The 2 armbian .img files worked fine, the
debian.iso failed 100%.  This thing should work for amanda, it has
recognized all 4 of the 4t SP SSD's. And in past linux installs from stretch
to buster, rpi-os just worked I had built earlier versions of amanda with
little problems as long as I skipped the docs. Thats always a problem for
intel stuff, dependency hell, for both amanda and linuxcnc.  I believe
that's my problem as the linuxcnc buildbot is doing them ok recently.


which is an odd thing to do.


Well, I'm tired of trying to make debian-arm work so you guys aren't
hassling me for bringing armbian questions here, while armbian Just Works
for everything once the network is configured. Getting the network
configured on armbian is a pita though.  Never have made it work on
debian-arm since wheezy.



One topic at a time, please, Gene :)


Cheers,
David.


Thanks David, take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis



.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd


On 8/4/24 06:29, Darac Marjal wrote:


On 04/08/2024 05:23, gene heskett wrote:


Nice, but no pi clone has ever booted from a usb stick, ever, not even 
real pi's can do that.


You are one of today's lucky 10,000:

https://thepihut.com/blogs/raspberry-pi-tutorials/how-to-boot-your-raspberry-pi-from-a-usb-mass-storage-device


unforch, no mention of the rpi4b. or the new one.

The query command returns a different result on an rpi4b.

17:08b0

Perhaps someone can decode that?

Thanks Darac.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd


On 8/4/24 06:29, Darac Marjal wrote:


On 04/08/2024 05:23, gene heskett wrote:


Nice, but no pi clone has ever booted from a usb stick, ever, not even 
real pi's can do that.


You are one of today's lucky 10,000:

https://thepihut.com/blogs/raspberry-pi-tutorials/how-to-boot-your-raspberry-pi-from-a-usb-mass-storage-device

Thanks, I've done that, but have not succeeded in 20 or so try's, in 
blowing the fuse that switches it forever. Marked for more recent 
investigation.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd

On 8/4/24 03:37, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

Gene Heskett wrote:

Wrote it to /dev/sdl, won't mount on sdl or sdl1. gparted says sdl2 is the
dos partition??

The partition table of debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso is in MBR, which
many tools call "DOS".

$ /sbin/fdisk -l debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso
...
Disklabel type: dos
...
Device Boot Start End Sectors Size Id Type
debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso10 7783551 7783552 3.7G 83 Linux
debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso2 7783552 7798783 15232 7.4M ef EFI
(FAT-12/16/32)

Partition 1 is the ISO 9660 filesystem.
Partition 2 is the EFI System Partition, a FAT filesystem.
Both and also the base device should be mountable after copying.

Try in a running Linux system

dir=/mnt/iso
sudo mount debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso "$dir"
ls -l "$dir"

This should show
total 653
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root 2048 Jun 29 12:24 EFI
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 9084 Jun 29 13:39 README.html
...
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root 4096 Jun 29 12:24 pics
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root 2048 Jun 29 12:24 pool

The start of partition 1 and the start of the base device are the same.
So it makes no difference if you mount either of them.

Now for the EFI partition (7783552 * 512 = 3985178624):

sudo umount "$dir"
sudo mount -o offset=3985178624 debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso "$dir"
find "$dir"

should show:

/mnt/iso
/mnt/iso/efi
/mnt/iso/efi/boot
/mnt/iso/efi/boot/bootaa64.efi
/mnt/iso/efi/boot/grubaa64.efi
/mnt/iso/efi/debian
/mnt/iso/efi/debian/grub.cfg

That is not bootp, its grub. Different critter entirely. I don't know
which debian version can boot that but an earlier release, say 5 or 7
years back, it actually booted, but what it booted was incomplete so I
used the raspi-os at the time, building my own realtime 4-19 kernel. At
that time on an rpi3b, which worked but the 3b was dragging its tongue
on the floor but the 4b made it happy when it came out. And still is.

Both mounts together will not work properly, because the kernel people
decided that one device needs only to be mounted once. Any further mount
just repeats the first one. Use losetup(8) to create separate /dev/loopN
if you really need these two mounts at the same time.

If Linux does not show these files by mounting /dev/sdl1 and /dev/sdl2
after copying the ISO to the SD card /dev/sdl, then copying went wrong or
the kernel did not notice the change of partition tables.
With a pluggable device it is best to unplug and replug.
A fixely installed drive may show the new table after:

sudo hdparm -z /dev/sdl

(I wish we had a similar ioctl for size assessment of /dev/srX after
burning.)
Aggred, that would be handier than the turnbuttton on the outhouse door
at a family reunion in 1940.

gene@coyote:~/Downloads/armbian$ sudo dd if=./debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso
bs=4096 of=/dev/sdl1
dd: error writing '/dev/sdl1': No space left on device
its a 128GB card.

That's the wrong output device. You need to write ISOs with partitions
to the base device, not to an existing partition.
(I assume that sdl1 is smaller than the ISO.)

If the base device was partitioned by GPT, then you should also zeroize
the last block of the device. Else a partition editor could come to the
idea of restoring the GPT from the backup at the end of the device.
This would destroy the partition table of the ISO image.

Zeroizing the backup GPT header block would be done by xorriso-dd-target,
if you use that script for copying.
If the SD card is removable, then i propose

https://wiki.debian.org/XorrisoDdTarget#Identify_the_device_by_plugging_and_copy_if_it_looks_safe_enough

If plugging out-and-in is not an option or if xorriso-dd-target shys
away from overwriting the existing neither-ISO-nor-FAT filesystems, then

https://wiki.debian.org/XorrisoDdTarget#How_to_overwrite_a_drive_against_the_will_of_xorriso-dd-target
It will then show you the commands which it would run if it was more
daring.
(You could of course play with the other proposals in

https://manpages.debian.org/unstable/xorriso-dd-target/xorriso-dd-target.1.en.html
)

George at Clug wrote:

If the aim is to make a bootable USB then I like to use:
# cp debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso /dev/sdl

That should be ok.

But I guess a micro-sd behaves differently to a USB ?

Not in the booted Linux. Maybe the firmware of the computer has its own
ideas. One could ask GRUB via its command shell how it perceives the
device persentation by the firmware. I roughly guess guess from "sdl":
ls (hd12)
In general:
ls
See
https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub/html_node/ls.html
(Experts might have better proposals for this.)

Gene Heskett wrote:

-rw-r--r-- 1 gene gene 3993284608 Aug 3 19:39 debian-12.6.0-arm64-
DVD-1.iso <-trying to write this file to a new DVD+RW disk.

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd


On 8/4/24 03:37, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

Gene Heskett wrote:

Wrote it to /dev/sdl, won't mount on sdl or sdl1. gparted says sdl2 is the
dos partition??


The partition table of debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso is in MBR, which
many tools call "DOS".

   $ /sbin/fdisk -l debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso
   ...
   Disklabel type: dos
   ...
   Device Boot   Start End Sectors  Size Id Type
   debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso10 7783551 7783552  3.7G 83 Linux
   debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso2  7783552 7798783   15232  7.4M ef EFI 
(FAT-12/16/32)

Partition 1 is the ISO 9660 filesystem.
Partition 2 is the EFI System Partition, a FAT filesystem.
Both and also the base device should be mountable after copying.

Try in a running Linux system

   dir=/mnt/iso
   sudo mount debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso "$dir"
   ls -l "$dir"

This should show
   total 653
   dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 Jun 29 12:24 EFI
   -r--r--r-- 1 root root   9084 Jun 29 13:39 README.html
   ...
   dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   4096 Jun 29 12:24 pics
   dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 Jun 29 12:24 pool

The start of partition 1 and the start of the base device are the same.
So it makes no difference if you mount either of them.

Now for the EFI partition (7783552 * 512 = 3985178624):

   sudo umount "$dir"
   sudo mount -o offset=3985178624 debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso "$dir"
   find "$dir"

should show:

   /mnt/iso
   /mnt/iso/efi
   /mnt/iso/efi/boot
   /mnt/iso/efi/boot/bootaa64.efi
   /mnt/iso/efi/boot/grubaa64.efi
   /mnt/iso/efi/debian
   /mnt/iso/efi/debian/grub.cfg

Both mounts together will not work properly, because the kernel people
decided that one device needs only to be mounted once. Any further mount
just repeats the first one. Use losetup(8) to create separate /dev/loopN
if you really need these two mounts at the same time.

If Linux does not show these files by mounting /dev/sdl1 and /dev/sdl2
after copying the ISO to the SD card /dev/sdl, then copying went wrong or
the kernel did not notice the change of partition tables.
With a pluggable device it is best to unplug and replug.
A fixely installed drive may show the new table after:

   sudo hdparm -z /dev/sdl

(I wish we had a similar ioctl for size assessment of /dev/srX after
burning.)



gene@coyote:~/Downloads/armbian$ sudo dd if=./debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso
bs=4096 of=/dev/sdl1
dd: error writing '/dev/sdl1': No space left on device
its a 128GB card.


That's the wrong output device. You need to write ISOs with partitions
to the base device, not to an existing partition.
(I assume that sdl1 is smaller than the ISO.)


The iso is a 4Gb dvd .iso
the total size of /dev/sdl is 128 GB, not that ess dee ell, not ess dee 
one so there's many times the size of the .isp on /dev/sdl.


The 128GB card is back in the card adapter. And I am, about to rewrite 
the iso tp /dev/sdl, getting this response:
gene@coyote:~/Downloads/armbian$ sudo dd 
if=./debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso bs=4096 of=/dev/sdl

974923+0 records in
974923+0 records out
3993284608 bytes (4.0 GB, 3.7 GiB) copied, 77.9216 s, 51.2 MB/s
the card is not at this point mounted, so removed from the reader and 
inserted into the bpim5. and powered up in should boot, right? but first 
a look with fdisk -l /dev/sdl:

gene@coyote:~/Downloads/armbian$ sudo fdisk -l /dev/sdl
Disk /dev/sdl: 119.08 GiB, 127865454592 bytes, 249737216 sectors
Disk model:  Storage Device
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
Disklabel type: dos
Disk identifier: 0x

Device Boot   Start End Sectors  Size Id Type
/dev/sdl1 0 7783551 7783552  3.7G 83 Linux
/dev/sdl2   7783552 7798783   15232  7.4M ef EFI (FAT-12/16/32)

Now, that looks like something that might boot an intel system, but most 
of the arm64 pi like systems use the bootp protocol, a different critter 
entirely.  Anyway, remove card from reader, take to bpi-m5, plug it and 
power it up, No activity except for my network attempting to ID an unk 
port that showed up because the cat6 is plugged in so the eth0 port is 
being banged on by arp.. I need an .img file, could be bigger than a DVD 
that conforms to the the bootp protocol & this isn't it.


Now power it down, pull the card and put it back in the reader, and 
write the armbian server .img file to it.  Takes around 4 minutes,returning:
gene@coyote:~/Downloads/armbian$ sudo dd 
if=./Armbian_24.5.1_Bananapim5_noble_current_6.6.31.img bs=4096 of=/dev/sdl

[sudo] password for gene:
520192+0 records in
520192+0 records out
2130706432 bytes (2.1 GB, 2.0 GiB) copied, 141.57 s, 15.1 MB/s
And fdisk -l /dev/sdkl shows:
Disk /dev/sdl: 119.08 GiB, 127865454592 bytes, 249737216 sectors
Disk model:  Storage Device
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 51

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd

2024-08-04 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Gene Heskett wrote
> > [ISO]   debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso

and later:
> Well, I'm tired of trying to make debian-arm work so you guys aren't
> hassling me for bringing armbian questions here,

I make a new attempt of an answer to your initial question

> ... > can this iso be put on a micro-sd

  Yes. But it is possibly not intended for Raspberry Pi with 64 bit CPU.


--
Reasoning:

It seems that Debian on Raspberry Pi has its own means of installation

  https://raspi.debian.net/tested-images/

This is probaly more specialized than the arm64 ISO.
It has at least 4 different "Bookworm" images depending on the raspi
version.

I downloaded and inspected
  https://raspi.debian.net/tested/20231109_raspi_4_bookworm.img.xz

fdisk yields:

  Disklabel type: dos
  ...
  Device Boot   Start End Sectors  Size Id Type
  20231109_raspi_4_bookworm.img1 8192 1048575 1040384  508M  c W95 
FAT32 (
  20231109_raspi_4_bookworm.img2  1048576 511 40714242G 83 Linux


Mounting partition 1 shows among a few other files, a bunch of executable
programs:

  -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2973536 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start.elf
  -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2249280 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start4.elf
  -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  803964 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start4cd.elf
  -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 3744808 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start4db.elf
  -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2996680 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start4x.elf
  -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  803964 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start_cd.elf
  -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 4816712 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start_db.elf
  -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 3720360 Nov  9  2023 /mnt/fat/start_x.elf

Maybe you got similar ones in your armbian system.
Obviously this image does not aim much at EFI firmware. At least no
/EFI/BOOT directory is to see.

There are no files in the Debian arm64 ISO with a name matching "*.elf".
The wiki
  https://wiki.debian.org/RaspberryPi
does not point to arm64 ISOs but rather to
  https://wiki.debian.org/RaspberryPiImages
which points to
  https://raspi.debian.net/

Partition 2 is according to "file" an ext4 "(needs journal recovery)".
Its content looks more like GNU/Linux:
  ...
  -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 30964073 Nov  9  2023 
/mnt/ext4/boot/initrd.img-6.1.0-13-arm64
  -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 32622528 Sep 29  2023 
/mnt/ext4/boot/vmlinuz-6.1.0-13-arm64
  ...


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Booting BananaPi from sd [WAS Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd]

2024-08-04 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

On Sun, Aug 04, 2024 at 02:01:24AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> On 8/4/24 01:17, David Wright wrote:
> > On Sat 03 Aug 2024 at 20:04:08 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:
> > > On 8/3/24 19:39, gene heskett wrote:
> > > > [ISO]    debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso
> > > > 

This will work on an arm64 board potentially that is in a desktop/server.
It will also work on a Raspbberry Pi 4 that's booting from a port of 
Tianocore. (EDK - the UEFI basis) [For the Pi 4, Pete Batard has done
a port].

> Yes, no response, written to /dev/sdl or to .dev/sdl1. The armbian .img's
> for noble and bookworm written to /dev/sdl, booted to a cli in 30 or 40
> seconds.
> 

RIGHT - see previous note about Armbian and how they take the vendor
core support and make it boot. You've got a .img file - kernel, initrd
and (probably) u-boot in one file. You put it in and it boots.
The 30-40s is probably u-boot kicking in, initialising hardware
including any dtb and then booting up.

If you _know_ how to build u-boot for yourself, you can possibly
get it to boot anything arbitrary but at that point it gets complicated:
see, for example 
https://www.earth.li/~noodles/blog/2023/10/debian-on-bpi-m2-zero.html

> > or did you mystify yourself by trying to mount the partitions and
> > then abandon the process in favour of:
> > 
> > > Now writing it to /dev/sdl1.
> 
> that didn't work either. The 2 armbian .img files worked fine, the
> debian.iso failed 100%.  This thing should work for amanda, it has
> recognized all 4 of the 4t SP SSD's. And in past linux installs from stretch
> to buster, rpi-os just worked I had built earlier versions of amanda with
> little problems as long as I skipped the docs. Thats always a problem for
> intel stuff, dependency hell, for both amanda and linuxcnc.  I believe
> that's my problem as the linuxcnc buildbot is doing them ok recently.
> 
> > which is an odd thing to do.
> 
> Well, I'm tired of trying to make debian-arm work so you guys aren't
> hassling me for bringing armbian questions here, while armbian Just Works
> for everything once the network is configured. Getting the network
> configured on armbian is a pita though.  Never have made it work on
> debian-arm since wheezy.
> 

One topic at a time, please, Gene :)

> > Cheers,
> > David.
> 
> Thanks David, take care & stay well.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
>

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd

2024-08-04 Thread Darac Marjal



On 04/08/2024 05:23, gene heskett wrote:


Nice, but no pi clone has ever booted from a usb stick, ever, not even 
real pi's can do that.


You are one of today's lucky 10,000:

https://thepihut.com/blogs/raspberry-pi-tutorials/how-to-boot-your-raspberry-pi-from-a-usb-mass-storage-device



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Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd

2024-08-04 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Gene Heskett wrote:
> Wrote it to /dev/sdl, won't mount on sdl or sdl1. gparted says sdl2 is the
> dos partition??

The partition table of debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso is in MBR, which
many tools call "DOS".

  $ /sbin/fdisk -l debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso
  ...
  Disklabel type: dos
  ...
  Device Boot   Start End Sectors  Size Id Type
  debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso10 7783551 7783552  3.7G 83 Linux
  debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso2  7783552 7798783   15232  7.4M ef EFI 
(FAT-12/16/32)

Partition 1 is the ISO 9660 filesystem.
Partition 2 is the EFI System Partition, a FAT filesystem.
Both and also the base device should be mountable after copying.

Try in a running Linux system

  dir=/mnt/iso
  sudo mount debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso "$dir"
  ls -l "$dir"

This should show
  total 653
  dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 Jun 29 12:24 EFI
  -r--r--r-- 1 root root   9084 Jun 29 13:39 README.html
  ...
  dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   4096 Jun 29 12:24 pics
  dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 Jun 29 12:24 pool

The start of partition 1 and the start of the base device are the same.
So it makes no difference if you mount either of them.

Now for the EFI partition (7783552 * 512 = 3985178624):

  sudo umount "$dir"
  sudo mount -o offset=3985178624 debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso "$dir"
  find "$dir"

should show:

  /mnt/iso
  /mnt/iso/efi
  /mnt/iso/efi/boot
  /mnt/iso/efi/boot/bootaa64.efi
  /mnt/iso/efi/boot/grubaa64.efi
  /mnt/iso/efi/debian
  /mnt/iso/efi/debian/grub.cfg

Both mounts together will not work properly, because the kernel people
decided that one device needs only to be mounted once. Any further mount
just repeats the first one. Use losetup(8) to create separate /dev/loopN
if you really need these two mounts at the same time.

If Linux does not show these files by mounting /dev/sdl1 and /dev/sdl2
after copying the ISO to the SD card /dev/sdl, then copying went wrong or
the kernel did not notice the change of partition tables.
With a pluggable device it is best to unplug and replug.
A fixely installed drive may show the new table after:

  sudo hdparm -z /dev/sdl

(I wish we had a similar ioctl for size assessment of /dev/srX after
burning.)

> gene@coyote:~/Downloads/armbian$ sudo dd if=./debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso
> bs=4096 of=/dev/sdl1
> dd: error writing '/dev/sdl1': No space left on device
> its a 128GB card.

That's the wrong output device. You need to write ISOs with partitions
to the base device, not to an existing partition.
(I assume that sdl1 is smaller than the ISO.)

If the base device was partitioned by GPT, then you should also zeroize
the last block of the device. Else a partition editor could come to the
idea of restoring the GPT from the backup at the end of the device.
This would destroy the partition table of the ISO image.

Zeroizing the backup GPT header block would be done by xorriso-dd-target,
if you use that script for copying.
If the SD card is removable, then i propose

https://wiki.debian.org/XorrisoDdTarget#Identify_the_device_by_plugging_and_copy_if_it_looks_safe_enough

If plugging out-and-in is not an option or if xorriso-dd-target shys
away from overwriting the existing neither-ISO-nor-FAT filesystems, then

https://wiki.debian.org/XorrisoDdTarget#How_to_overwrite_a_drive_against_the_will_of_xorriso-dd-target
It will then show you the commands which it would run if it was more
daring.
(You could of course play with the other proposals in

https://manpages.debian.org/unstable/xorriso-dd-target/xorriso-dd-target.1.en.html
)

George at Clug wrote:
> If the aim is to make a bootable USB then I like to use:
> # cp debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso /dev/sdl

That should be ok.

> But I guess a micro-sd behaves differently to a USB ?

Not in the booted Linux. Maybe the firmware of the computer has its own
ideas. One could ask GRUB via its command shell how it perceives the
device persentation by the firmware. I roughly guess guess from "sdl":
  ls (hd12)
In general:
  ls
See
  https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub/html_node/ls.html
(Experts might have better proposals for this.)

Gene Heskett wrote:
> -rw-r--r-- 1 gene gene 3993284608 Aug  3 19:39 debian-12.6.0-arm64-
> DVD-1.iso <-trying to write this file to a new DVD+RW disk.
>
> XFburn claims it can't burn yet, so I had apt install k3b and its deps.
> I run k3b as me, you can see I own the iso so k3b should be able to write
> it, but k3b cannot see a single file in the above

If the DVD burner is /dev/sr0, try:

  xorriso -as cdrecord -v dev=/dev/sr0 -eject debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso

Linux will not show partitions on the burnt DVD.
But above mount commands should still yield above results:

  sudo mount /dev/sr0 "$dir"

  sudo umount "$dir"
  sudo mount -o offset=3985178624 /dev/sr0 "$

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd


On 8/4/24 01:17, David Wright wrote:

On Sat 03 Aug 2024 at 20:04:08 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:

On 8/3/24 19:39, gene heskett wrote:

[ISO]    debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso


Wrote it to /dev/sdl, won't mount on sdl or sdl1. gparted says sdl2 is
the dos partition??


With amd64-netinst ISOs, all three of /dev/sdX{,1,2} should be
mountable. sdX and sdX1 will appear identical as they both start at
sector 0. sdX2 is FAT because it's the EFI partition.

Obviously arm64-DVD ISOs might differ somewhat, but my question is
whether, having written the ISO to sdl, did you try and boot from it,


Yes, no response, written to /dev/sdl or to .dev/sdl1. The armbian 
.img's for noble and bookworm written to /dev/sdl, booted to a cli in 30 
or 40 seconds.



or did you mystify yourself by trying to mount the partitions and
then abandon the process in favour of:


Now writing it to /dev/sdl1.


that didn't work either. The 2 armbian .img files worked fine, the 
debian.iso failed 100%.  This thing should work for amanda, it has 
recognized all 4 of the 4t SP SSD's. And in past linux installs from 
stretch to buster, rpi-os just worked I had built earlier versions of 
amanda with little problems as long as I skipped the docs. Thats always 
a problem for intel stuff, dependency hell, for both amanda and 
linuxcnc.  I believe that's my problem as the linuxcnc buildbot is doing 
them ok recently.



which is an odd thing to do.


Well, I'm tired of trying to make debian-arm work so you guys aren't 
hassling me for bringing armbian questions here, while armbian Just 
Works for everything once the network is configured. Getting the network 
configured on armbian is a pita though.  Never have made it work on 
debian-arm since wheezy.



Cheers,
David.


Thanks David, take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd

2024-08-03 Thread David Wright

On Sat 03 Aug 2024 at 20:04:08 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:
> On 8/3/24 19:39, gene heskett wrote:
> > [ISO]    debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso
> > 
> Wrote it to /dev/sdl, won't mount on sdl or sdl1. gparted says sdl2 is
> the dos partition??

With amd64-netinst ISOs, all three of /dev/sdX{,1,2} should be
mountable. sdX and sdX1 will appear identical as they both start at
sector 0. sdX2 is FAT because it's the EFI partition.

Obviously arm64-DVD ISOs might differ somewhat, but my question is
whether, having written the ISO to sdl, did you try and boot from it,
or did you mystify yourself by trying to mount the partitions and
then abandon the process in favour of:

> Now writing it to /dev/sdl1.

which is an odd thing to do.

Cheers,
David.

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd

2024-08-03 Thread tomas

On Sun, Aug 04, 2024 at 11:10:50AM +1000, George at Clug wrote:

[...]

> I do not know what the aim of the above dd statement is, as I have yet to 
> learn how to make use of dd.
> 
> If the aim is to make a bootable USB then I like to use:
> # cp debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso /dev/sdl

They both do the same. With dd you have some handy options
you don't have with cp [1], that's all.

> But I guess a micro-sd behaves differently to a USB ?

Not in this context. All your userspace sees is a block
device. The kernel takes care of the rest.

Cheers

[1] I like to add oflag=sync status=progress in this context.
-- 
t


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Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd

2024-08-03 Thread tomas

On Sat, Aug 03, 2024 at 08:04:08PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> On 8/3/24 19:39, gene heskett wrote:
> > [ISO]    debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso
> > 
> Wrote it to /dev/sdl, won't mount on sdl or sdl1. gparted says sdl2 is the
> dos partition??
> 
> Now writing it to /dev/sdl1. card adapter traffic led blinks for either
> write.
> 
> but...:
> gene@coyote:~/Downloads/armbian$ sudo dd if=./debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso
> bs=4096 of=/dev/sdl1
> dd: error writing '/dev/sdl1': No space left on device
> 
> its a 128GB card.

That would be the whole card. Now how big is the sdl1 partition?

Could you please do a "sudo sfdisk -l /dev/sdl" (NOTE: NO PARTITION NUMBER 
SUFFIX)
for us?

thanks & cheers
-- 
t


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Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd


On 8/3/24 21:11, George at Clug wrote:



On Sunday, 04-08-2024 at 10:04 gene heskett wrote:

On 8/3/24 19:39, gene heskett wrote:

[ISO]    debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso


Wrote it to /dev/sdl, won't mount on sdl or sdl1. gparted says sdl2 is
the dos partition??

Now writing it to /dev/sdl1. card adapter traffic led blinks for either
write.

but...:
gene@coyote:~/Downloads/armbian$ sudo dd
if=./debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso bs=4096 of=/dev/sdl1
dd: error writing '/dev/sdl1': No space left on device


I do not know what the aim of the above dd statement is, as I have yet to learn 
how to make use of dd.

DD is the original bypass the filesystem way to write an sd card. The 
man page is pretty simple but read carefully before pressing return 
because it bypasses all the system security and a typo can destroy your 
system in a millisecond. It is at least 26 years old maybe older. Was 
included in RH5.0, my first linux install after my full bore amiga 2000 
upchucked in late 1997.



If the aim is to make a bootable USB then I like to use:
# cp debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso /dev/sdl



But I guess a micro-sd behaves differently to a USB ?

George.



its a 128GB card.

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks.


If so I'll see how this boots from a micro-sd.


It didn't, yet the armbian versions boots to a cli in about 30 seconds.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd


On 8/3/24 22:38, e...@gmx.us wrote:

On 8/3/24 20:04, gene heskett wrote:

On 8/3/24 19:39, gene heskett wrote:

[ISO]    debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso

Wrote it to /dev/sdl, won't mount on sdl or sdl1. gparted says sdl2 is 
the

dos partition??


If it's meant to be written to a thumb drive to result in a bootable drive,
you need to do something like

dd if=debian.iso of=/dev/sdl


Nice, but no pi clone has ever booted from a usb stick, ever, not even 
real pi's can do that.


(modify filenames and add flags as appropriate)

That may result in there being mountable filesystems, but it doesn't 
have to

be that way. This will also wipe out any data on the _entire_ drive, so be
sure that's what you want.

Eban, I am puzzled. I have a ~/gene/Downloads/armbian directory with 
this content:

gene@coyote:~/Downloads/armbian$ ls -l
total 15489740
-rw-r--r-- 1 gene gene  50058 Aug 20  2023 1
-rw-r--r-- 1 gene gene 4412407808 Aug 18  2023 
2023-05-03-raspios-bullseye-arm64.img
-rw-r--r-- 1 gene gene 7256145920 Aug  3 07:22 
Armbian_24.5.1_Bananapim5_bookworm_current_6.6.31_xfce_desktop.img
-rw-r--r-- 1 gene gene 2130706432 Aug  3 07:23 
Armbian_24.5.1_Bananapim5_noble_current_6.6.31.img


-rw-r--r-- 1 gene gene 3993284608 Aug  3 19:39 debian-12.6.0-arm64- 
DVD-1.iso <-trying to write this file to a new DVD+RW disk.


XFburn claims it can't burn yet, so I had apt install k3b and its deps.
I run k3b as me, you can see I own the iso so k3b should be able to 
write it, but k3b cannot see a single file in the above and below ls -l 
output. The menu's in k3b have been played with since the last time I 
used it. So xfburn is out and so is k3b.  So what do I use to put the 
above file on an optical disk, which would be a first if it then works 
to boot an arm, which normally boots from a micro-sd card containing an 
.img file. But that does not work. I can make it boot the latest 
armbian, in noble server flaver or bootworm+xfce, but apparently no way 
to boot the debian arm64 bookworm_12.6.0.iso. am I missing something the 
FAQ doesn't tell me about?  Or a link to the latest .img. but I spent a 
couple hours looking for it w/o a hit. So I need some sort of a magic spell.


-rw-r--r-- 1 gene gene   5458 Apr 11 23:21 
generic-bigtreetech-octopus-pro-v1.1.cfg

-rw-r--r-- 1 gene gene   26626136 Dec 27  2023 linuxcnc-doc-en_2.9.1_all.deb
-rw-r--r-- 1 gene gene   1125 Dec 12  2023 linuxcnc-install.sh
-rw-r--r-- 1 gene gene   27075096 Dec 27  2023 
linuxcnc-uspace_2.9.1_arm64.deb
-rw-r--r-- 1 gene gene 256404 Dec 27  2023 
linuxcnc-uspace-dev_2.9.1_arm64.deb
-rw-r--r-- 1 gene gene   35155564 Dec 27  2023 
linux-image-5.4.258-rtai-amd64_5.4.258-rtai-amd64-2_amd64.deb

--
Q: Why do black holes never learn?
A: Because they're too dense.  -- ZurkisPhreek on Fark


cute. ;o)> Thanks for any advice that actually works...

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd

2024-08-03 Thread eben


On 8/3/24 20:04, gene heskett wrote:

On 8/3/24 19:39, gene heskett wrote:

[ISO]    debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso


Wrote it to /dev/sdl, won't mount on sdl or sdl1. gparted says sdl2 is the
dos partition??


If it's meant to be written to a thumb drive to result in a bootable drive,
you need to do something like

dd if=debian.iso of=/dev/sdl

(modify filenames and add flags as appropriate)

That may result in there being mountable filesystems, but it doesn't have to
be that way. This will also wipe out any data on the _entire_ drive, so be
sure that's what you want.

--
Q: Why do black holes never learn?
A: Because they're too dense.  -- ZurkisPhreek on Fark

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd

2024-08-03 Thread George at Clug




On Sunday, 04-08-2024 at 10:04 gene heskett wrote:
> On 8/3/24 19:39, gene heskett wrote:
> > [ISO]    debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso
> > 
> Wrote it to /dev/sdl, won't mount on sdl or sdl1. gparted says sdl2 is 
> the dos partition??
> 
> Now writing it to /dev/sdl1. card adapter traffic led blinks for either 
> write.
> 
> but...:
> gene@coyote:~/Downloads/armbian$ sudo dd 
> if=./debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso bs=4096 of=/dev/sdl1
> dd: error writing '/dev/sdl1': No space left on device

I do not know what the aim of the above dd statement is, as I have yet to learn 
how to make use of dd.

If the aim is to make a bootable USB then I like to use:
# cp debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso /dev/sdl

But I guess a micro-sd behaves differently to a USB ?

George.

> 
> its a 128GB card.
> 
> What am I doing wrong?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> > If so I'll see how this boots from a micro-sd.
> > 
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>   - Louis D. Brandeis
> 
>

Re: can this iso be put on a micro-sd


On 8/3/24 19:39, gene heskett wrote:

[ISO]    debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso

Wrote it to /dev/sdl, won't mount on sdl or sdl1. gparted says sdl2 is 
the dos partition??


Now writing it to /dev/sdl1. card adapter traffic led blinks for either 
write.


but...:
gene@coyote:~/Downloads/armbian$ sudo dd 
if=./debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso bs=4096 of=/dev/sdl1

dd: error writing '/dev/sdl1': No space left on device

its a 128GB card.

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks.


If so I'll see how this boots from a micro-sd.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

can this iso be put on a micro-sd


[ISO]   debian-12.6.0-arm64-DVD-1.iso

If so I'll see how this boots from a micro-sd.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Editing grub/EFI config on (net) installer ISO for serial install

2024-07-29 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Andy Smith wrote:
> Is there some advantage in me editing one of the files in the EFI
> partition as opposed to just putting the grub serial directives in
> /boot/grub/grub.cfg of the ISO?

None that i know of.

Editing /efi/debian/grub.cfg of the EFI partition filesystem would just
happen inside the ISO data storage without imposing the need for making
a new ISO.

The tight size of the Debian ISO EFI partition is not very inviting for
this. It also would have to be explored whether modifying the grub.cfg
file in the EFI partition can cause trouble with Secure Boot.

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Editing grub/EFI config on (net) installer ISO for serial install

2024-07-29 Thread Andy Smith

Hi,

On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 12:42:05PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Andy Smith wrote:
> > Should I just edit that into $iso_root/boot/grub/grub.cfg and repack
> > the ISO?
> 
> If altering the EFI partition is not viable, then surely: Yes.

Is there some advantage in me editing one of the files in the EFI
partition as opposed to just putting the grub serial directives in
/boot/grub/grub.cfg of the ISO?

> > Is there any documentation page about this?
> 
> Repacking ISOs:
>   https://wiki.debian.org/RepackBootableISO
> Especially look at this example:
>   
> https://wiki.debian.org/RepackBootableISO#In_xorriso_load_ISO_tree_and_write_modified_new_ISO

Thanks - I am okay with the actual repacking of the ISO though. I
was just wondering about the grub layout on the ISO and where my
changes should be done for this.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Editing grub/EFI config on (net) installer ISO for serial install

2024-07-29 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Andy Smith wrote:
> Currently when I add the Debian 12 netinst ISO as a virtual media it
> EFI boots grub, not isolinux,

That's because Debian ISOs advertise a EFI System Partition with GRUB
initial boot equipment:

  $ xorriso -indev debian-12.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso \
-report_el_torito plain -report_system_area plain
  ...
  El Torito images   :   N  Pltf  B   Emul  Ld_seg  Hdpt  Ldsiz LBA
  El Torito boot img :   1  BIOS  y   none  0x  0x00  45863
  El Torito boot img :   2  UEFI  y   none  0x  0x00  189761119
  El Torito img path :   1  /isolinux/isolinux.bin
  El Torito img opts :   1  boot-info-table isohybrid-suitable
  El Torito img path :   2  /boot/grub/efi.img
  ...
  MBR partition table:   N Status  TypeStart   Blocks
  MBR partition  :   1   0x80  0x000  1286144
  MBR partition  :   2   0x00  0xef 447618976
  MBR partition path :   2  /boot/grub/efi.img

The file /boot/grub/efi.img is a FAT filesystem image.
One could mount it read-write

  mount -o offset=2291712 /dvdbuffer/debian-12.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso /mnt/fat

and manipulate it inside the ISO. (2291712 = 4476 * 512)
But new SYSLINUX content would be an expert task and would not work from
optical media, because SYSLINUX EFI from CDROM is broken and will hardly
ever be fixed.


> I guess I need to find the grub configuration that is in use from
> the ISO and add the usual
>serial --unit=1 --speed=115200 --word=8 --parity=no --stop=1
>terminal_input serial
>terminal_output serial

Such stuff is in the /boot/grub/ directory of the ISO. The sparse config
in the EFI partition /mnt/fat/efi/debian/grub.cfg

  search --file --set=root /.disk/id/1af76032-4f8c-416b-90c5-76b1833daf0a
  set prefix=($root)/boot/grub
  source $prefix/${grub_cpu}-efi/grub.cfg

loads one of the ISO files  /boot/grub/*-efi/grub.cfg  which both load
/boot/grub/grub.cfg :

  source /boot/grub/grub.cfg


Problem is that the FAT filesystem is tightly wrapped around its content:

  $ df /mnt/fat
  Filesystem 1K-blocks  Used Available Use% Mounted on
  /dev/loop0  9450  9446 4 100% /mnt/fat

If you can omit 32-bit EFI, then there would be plenty of room to recover
by deleting

  -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  758552 Oct  7  2023 /mnt/fat/efi/boot/bootia32.efi
  -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 3753408 Oct  7  2023 /mnt/fat/efi/boot/grubia32.efi


> Should I just edit that into $iso_root/boot/grub/grub.cfg and repack
> the ISO?

If altering the EFI partition is not viable, then surely: Yes.
(The debian-cd people might already object manipulations of their
carefully composed EFI partition.)


> Is there any documentation page about this?

Repacking ISOs:
  https://wiki.debian.org/RepackBootableISO
Especially look at this example:
  
https://wiki.debian.org/RepackBootableISO#In_xorriso_load_ISO_tree_and_write_modified_new_ISO

(Beware of bug with -boot_image "any" "replay" in xorriso <= 1.5.6:
Do not overwrite the BIOS boot image /isolinux/isolinux.bin by the
manipulation commands like -map.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Editing grub/EFI config on (net) installer ISO for serial install

2024-07-29 Thread Andy Smith

Hi,

I am used to installing Debian by PXE boot and serial console. For
that purpose I'm familiar with editing the isolinux config files to
have the kernel serial settings (console=ttyS… etc) in
isolinux/txt.cfg.

Now for the first time I am trying to install a system that has a
management controller that adds virtual media from ISOs, but I would
still like to see that install over the IPMI serial.

Currently when I add the Debian 12 netinst ISO as a virtual media it
EFI boots grub, not isolinux, so the output of grub only goes to the
graphical terminal (a web interface of the management controller in
this case).

I can then force the install to proceed over serial by editing the
"Install" grub option and adding the familiar:

--- console=ttyS1,115200n8

pn the end of the kernel line, and that works, so I am nearly there.

I'd really like for this thing to by default boot grub in text mode
on the serial console though.

I guess I need to find the grub configuration that is in use from
the ISO and add the usual

serial --unit=1 --speed=115200 --word=8 --parity=no --stop=1
terminal_input serial
terminal_output serial

Should I just edit that into $iso_root/boot/grub/grub.cfg and repack
the ISO?

Is there any documentation page about this? Everything I found so
far just covers the isolinux bit, which doesn't appear to be
relevant here.

Thanks,
Andy

Re: Fwd: using xorriso to create a bootable Linux ISO

2024-07-19 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Vijay Kirpalani wrote:
> I am using xorriso to create a bootable Linux ISO and facing some issues.
> Please suggest what i might be doing wrong or missing.

I answered to your identical mail on bug-xorr...@gnu.org . See:
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-xorriso/2024-07/msg3.html

The problem seems not much related to Debian, except the fact that a
Debian ISO is presented by virtual box and GRUB the way we would expect
for a virtual USB stick or hard disk.

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to create a custom Debian ISO

2024-05-16 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Aditya Garg wrote:
> This one is gonna be interesting.
> Wish me luck.

Fingers are crossed ...

(But everything in the procedure is supposed to be deterministic. So there
is few room for luck, good or bad. We rather have to navigate the chaos.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to create a custom Debian ISO

2024-05-16 Thread Aditya Garg

Well I'm used to unsquashfs, chroot, squashfs and repack the iso. This one is 
gonna be interesting.

Wish me luck.

> On 16 May 2024, at 9:42 PM, Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>> Not the OP, but thanks, Thomas.
> 
> Well, ISO 9660 is known to be my hobby. So i can hardly resist trying
> to acquire new users for xorriso.
> 
> 
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas
>

Re: How to create a custom Debian ISO

2024-05-16 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> Not the OP, but thanks, Thomas.

Well, ISO 9660 is known to be my hobby. So i can hardly resist trying
to acquire new users for xorriso.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to create a custom Debian ISO

2024-05-16 Thread tomas

On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 05:20:40PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Aditya Garg wrote:
> > I would prefer making the ISO as similar to the official Debian ISO and just
> > replace the Debian kernel with the customised kernel.
> 
> In that case, i'd go along

[...]

Not the OP, but thanks, Thomas. Your posts are always
a trove. And pleasant, on top!

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: How to create a custom Debian ISO

2024-05-16 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Aditya Garg wrote:
> I would prefer making the ISO as similar to the official Debian ISO and just
> replace the Debian kernel with the customised kernel.

In that case, i'd go along
  https://wiki.debian.org/RepackBootableISO
Either by using the xorrisofs options in /.disk/mkisofs of the ISO :

  
https://wiki.debian.org/RepackBootableISO#Learn_about_the_actually_used_ISO_production_command

or by relying on the capability of xorriso to determine the commands
which will reproduce the boot equipmemt of the loaded ISO :

  
https://wiki.debian.org/RepackBootableISO#In_xorriso_load_ISO_tree_and_write_modified_new_ISO

If you need help with finding the appropriate xorriso commands, ask me
in private or in public at bug-xorr...@gnu.org .


What remains is to find out whether this works out of the box or whether
the kernel has to be announced in some files of the ISO or even
cryptographically signed in some way.

--

Just in case your adventure goes beyond replacing the kernel and possibly
the boot loader menu files, i warn of a bug in xorriso-1.5.6 and older:
Don't overwrite the El Torito boot image files in a xorriso run that uses
  -boot_image "any" "replay"
The boot image files in Debian amd64 ISOs are /isolinux/isolinux.bin
and /boot/grub/efi.img .
If you need to replace them, then we have to talk.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to create a custom Debian ISO

2024-05-16 Thread Aditya Garg

Well it's indeed not as easy as I thought as far as Debian ISOs are concerned.

I'll try to be more precise. I am a maintainer for Ubuntu on Linux on T2 Macs 
project: https://t2linux.org/.

We work to modify ISOs of commonly used distros by adding a custom kernel with 
drivers for T2 Macs and provide to the users. There has been a demand for 
Debian for a long time and I wish to provide the ISOs for the same. I would 
prefer making the ISO as similar to the official Debian ISO and just replace 
the Debian kernel with the customised kernel.

I've already set up an apt repo which hosts the kernels over here: 
https://github.com/AdityaGarg8/t2-ubuntu-repo

I'll be thankful if I get the best possible option.

On 11 May 2024, at 8:33 PM, Thomas Schmitt  wrote:

Hi,

Aditya Garg wrote to debian-devel:
I wanted to create a custom ISO of Debian, with the following customisations:
1. I want to add a custom kernel that supports my Hardware.
2. I want to add my own Apt repo which hosts various software packages to
support my hardware.
I am not able to get any good documentation for the same. Please help.

Marvin Renich wrote:
The package live-build from the Debian Live project might help you do
what you want.

Indeed the live-build package seems to be in use outside Debian's own
ISO production. Mailing list is
 debian-l...@lists.debian.org
There exists a manual
 https://live-team.pages.debian.net/live-manual/html/live-manual/index.en.html

Installation ISOs are made by package debian-cd, of which i am not aware
that it would have have users outside the official ISO production.i
Mailing list is
 debian...@lists.debian.org
Your impression about lack of documentation is not wrong as far as this
project is concerned. :))


Nevertheless the production step of packing up the ISO from a prepared
file tree is documented together with methods to use a Debian installation
ISO as base for the preparation:
 https://wiki.debian.org/RepackBootableISO

Packages may probably be added at the appropriate place in the directory
tree under /pool. (Managing a Debian repo is not my turf. Sorry for
being vague here.)

Changing the content of a Debian ISO might need some follow-up work in
administrative files of the ISO.
When merging Debian ISOs, my script
 
https://dev.lovelyhq.com/libburnia/libisoburn/raw/branch/master/test/merge_debian_isos
manipulates:
 /README.txt
 /dists/*/Release
and merges the files listed in /dists/*/Release.
You would have to explore whether these files are affected by your
changes.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to create a custom Debian ISO

2024-05-11 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Aditya Garg wrote to debian-devel:
> > I wanted to create a custom ISO of Debian, with the following 
> > customisations:
> > 1. I want to add a custom kernel that supports my Hardware.
> > 2. I want to add my own Apt repo which hosts various software packages to
support my hardware.
> > I am not able to get any good documentation for the same. Please help.

Marvin Renich wrote:
> The package live-build from the Debian Live project might help you do
> what you want.

Indeed the live-build package seems to be in use outside Debian's own
ISO production. Mailing list is
  debian-l...@lists.debian.org
There exists a manual
  https://live-team.pages.debian.net/live-manual/html/live-manual/index.en.html

Installation ISOs are made by package debian-cd, of which i am not aware
that it would have have users outside the official ISO production.i
Mailing list is
  debian...@lists.debian.org
Your impression about lack of documentation is not wrong as far as this
project is concerned. :))

Nevertheless the production step of packing up the ISO from a prepared
file tree is documented together with methods to use a Debian installation
ISO as base for the preparation:
  https://wiki.debian.org/RepackBootableISO

Packages may probably be added at the appropriate place in the directory
tree under /pool. (Managing a Debian repo is not my turf. Sorry for
being vague here.)

Changing the content of a Debian ISO might need some follow-up work in
administrative files of the ISO.
When merging Debian ISOs, my script

https://dev.lovelyhq.com/libburnia/libisoburn/raw/branch/master/test/merge_debian_isos
manipulates:
  /README.txt
  /dists/*/Release
and merges the files listed in /dists/*/Release.
You would have to explore whether these files are affected by your
changes.

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to create a custom Debian ISO

2024-05-11 Thread Marvin Renich

* Aditya Garg  [240511 05:15]:
> Hello
> 
> I wanted to create a custom ISO of Debian, with the following customisations:
> 
> 1. I want to add a custom kernel that supports my Hardware.
> 2. I want to add my own Apt repo which hosts various software packages to 
> support my hardware.
> 
> I am not able to get any good documentation for the same. Please help.

[Redirecting to debian-user, dropping -project, M-F-T set to debian-user only]

First, please don't double-post the same message within a few minutes.
Give your message at least a half hour to show up before you decide it
wasn't received.

Second, neither debian-devel nor debian-project are appropriate lists
for this question.  You should use debian-user@lists.debian.org or some
other user-oriented forum.  Also, posting a question to multiple lists
at once (called cross-posting) is considered rude in most situations.

To give a possible answer to your question, look at the Debian Live
project:  https://www.debian.org/devel/debian-live/

The package live-build from the Debian Live project might help you do
what you want.

...Marvin

Re: Fwd: Problem verifying iso file

2023-06-23 Thread Thomas George


Interesting. Your suggested command reports

Debian-12.0.0-and64-DVD-1.iso OK

Followed by 20 lines of failed to read

Debian-12.0.0-amd64-DVD-x.iso where x is in 2-20

These are I suppose lines from the full set of Debian DVD's

So the DVD  iso I burned and used to install Debian is OK

Thank you, I'll know better next time

On 6/23/23 19:17, DdB wrote:

Am 24.06.2023 um 00:09 schrieb Thomas George:

I tried md5sum SHA512SUMS.txt debian-12.0.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso

The outputs do not match

Seriously?

i would have tried
sha512sum -c ShA512SUMS.txt
in the folder, where the iso can be found.

gl next time
DdB

Re: Fwd: Problem verifying iso file

2023-06-23 Thread Dan Purgert

On Jun 23, 2023, Thomas George wrote:
> I thought I had posted this to the debianlist but somehow it seems to have
> been posted to myself [...]
> 
> What am i doing wrong?
> [...]
> I tried md5sum SHA512SUMS.txt SHA512SUMS.sign.txt

If you're trying to verify the signature on the checksum file, you need
to use gpg:

  gpg --verify SHA512SUMS.sign.txt SHA512SUMS.txt

Then, to verify the iso itself, you need to use sha512sum:

  sha512sum --ignore-missing -c SHA512SUMS.txt

Note that all three files -- the *iso, the SHA512 checksums, and the GPG
signature -- need to be in the same directory for this to work.

HTH :)

-- 
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1  E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Fwd: Problem verifying iso file

2023-06-23 Thread DdB

Am 24.06.2023 um 00:09 schrieb Thomas George:
> I tried md5sum SHA512SUMS.txt debian-12.0.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso
> 
> The outputs do not match

Seriously?

i would have tried
sha512sum -c ShA512SUMS.txt
in the folder, where the iso can be found.

gl next time
DdB

Fwd: Problem verifying iso file

2023-06-23 Thread Thomas George

I thought I had posted this to the debianlist but somehow it seems to 
have been posted to myself


Weeks went by with no response from the list so I gave up, burnt the iso 
to dvd and used it install bookworm on a new pc. The installation went 
smoothly and I am using the new pc.


Should I be concerned with the failed verification and if so what should 
I do about it.


Tom



 Forwarded Message 
Subject:Problem verifying iso file
Date:   Sun, 18 Jun 2023 16:45:45 -0400
From:   Thomas George 
To: Tom 



What am i doing wrong?

I downloaded SHA512SUMS.txt, SHA512SUMS.sign.txt. SHA256SUMS.txt. 
SHA256SIMS.sign.txt, and debian-12.0.0-amd64 -DVD-1.iso


I tried md5sum SHA512SUMS.txt SHA512SUMS.sign.txt

The outputs do not match.

I tried md5sum SHA512SUMS.txt debian-12.0.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso

The outputs do not match

I tried all the variations of the above.

The outputs do not match

Please help

Re: How does the bookworm amd64 netinst 738MB iso fit into a 700MB cd-r?

2023-06-19 Thread siso

On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 6:30 PM Steve McIntyre  wrote:
>
> Apologies, it's just too large at this point. Adding all the firmware
> made things grow too much. We have some ideas on how to fix this, and
> I hope that the 12.1 images will work better.

Glad to hear this. Looking forward to debian-12.1.0-amd64-netinst.iso.
My stack of blank CD-Rs can serve their purpose again.

Re: How does the bookworm amd64 netinst 738MB iso fit into a 700MB cd-r?

2023-06-19 Thread siso

Hi,

On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 6:49 AM Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
>
> I have no report of persistent damage. But drives can take offense from
> overburning and then need a power cycle.

Thumbs up for cdrskin. I use it almost exclusively to burn CDs.
Definitely my first go-to.

> I rather hope for a netinst-CD ISO without firmware as companion of the
> netinst DVD ISO with firmware.
> Once there was the "businesscard CD" ISO with less than 50 MiB. Very handy
> for xorriso regression tests.

Yes, I hope so too. The 300+MB netinst CD isos of previous releases
were a joy to work with. Quick to burn. And it was easy to get to the
non-free firmware page by following the links from the netinst page.
At least for me it wasn't a problem.

siso

Re: How does the bookworm amd64 netinst 738MB iso fit into a 700MB cd-r?

2023-06-19 Thread Steve McIntyre

j...@jretrading.com wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 11:30:04 +0100
>Steve McIntyre  wrote:
>
>> ssmcmlxx+debianu...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >I tried to write the debian-12.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso to cd using
>> >cdrskin and xorriso but they both refused my command.  
>> 
>> Apologies, it's just too large at this point. Adding all the firmware
>> made things grow too much. We have some ideas on how to fix this, and
>> I hope that the 12.1 images will work better.
>> 
>
>Is compression practical in this case? Tom used to get 1.7MB on a 1.44MB
>floppy, and Knoppix claims to put 2GB on a live CD.

Just about everything on the media is already heavily compressed,
e.g. xz for data inside the .deb packages.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
< sladen> I actually stayed in a hotel and arrived to find a post-it
  note stuck to the mini-bar saying "Paul: This fridge and
  fittings are the correct way around and do not need altering"

Re: How does the bookworm amd64 netinst 738MB iso fit into a 700MB cd-r?

2023-06-19 Thread Charles Curley

On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 14:10:48 +0100
Joe  wrote:

> Tom used to get 1.7MB on a 1.44MB
> floppy,

If you mean Tom's rootboot, tomsrtbt: he got some of that "compression"
by adding extra tracks beyond the 1.44MB. It is also possible to add an
extra sector per track. (But not all floppy drives supported those extra
tracks and sectors gracefully or at all.) That got 1.7 MB out of a
1.44MB diskette. I don't know if he did compression on top of that.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: How does the bookworm amd64 netinst 738MB iso fit into a 700MB cd-r?

2023-06-19 Thread Steve McIntyre

ssmcmlxx+debianu...@gmail.com wrote:
>I tried to write the debian-12.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso to cd using
>cdrskin and xorriso but they both refused my command.

Apologies, it's just too large at this point. Adding all the firmware
made things grow too much. We have some ideas on how to fix this, and
I hope that the 12.1 images will work better.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
< sladen> I actually stayed in a hotel and arrived to find a post-it
  note stuck to the mini-bar saying "Paul: This fridge and
  fittings are the correct way around and do not need altering"

Re: How does the bookworm amd64 netinst 738MB iso fit into a 700MB cd-r?

2023-06-19 Thread Pierre Tomon

The mini.iso image is 62M:
https://www.debian.org/distrib/netinst#verysmall

Re: How does the bookworm amd64 netinst 738MB iso fit into a 700MB cd-r?

2023-06-19 Thread mick.crane


On 2023-06-18 23:48, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Once there was the "businesscard CD" ISO with less than 50 MiB. Very 
handy

for xorriso regression tests.


30 something Mb, Slitaz would fit on them.
mick

Re: How does the bookworm amd64 netinst 738MB iso fit into a 700MB cd-r?

2023-06-19 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Joe wrote:
> Just a thought: Knoppix has never considered 700MB much of a limit.
> "Because of its transparent decompression, up to 2 gigabyes of
> executable software can be present on a CD, and up to 10GB on a
> single-layered DVD."

Debian ISOs have all their big data files compressed: kernels, initrds,
packages.

There's not much potential for compression gains:

  $ cat

Re: How does the bookworm amd64 netinst 738MB iso fit into a 700MB cd-r?

2023-06-19 Thread Joe

On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 05:51:09 +0800
siso  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 3:32 AM Thomas Schmitt 
> wrote:
> >
> > You ran into a known bug of cdrskin which will be fixed by version
> > 1.5.6. It did not even try to burn more than the official number of
> > blocks.
> >
> > Nevertheless it most probably would not have worked, because 36 MiB
> > of overburning is just too much for a "700 MB" CD.  
> 
> The bug saved my drive fortunately. Yay for that.
> 
> > > And there it went, one good cd. FATAL indeed.  
> >
> > Sorry for that.  
> 
> Don't worry about it. It was my poor attempt at tongue-in-cheek humour
> :). Just lost one CD-R. The drive is still working fine, i think.
> 
> > After fixing option -force i added quite some warning to the man
> > page of cdrskin:
> >
> >   -force
> >   Assume that the user knows better in situations when cdrskin
> > or libburn  are  refusing  because of concerns about drive or media
> >   state.
> >   Caution: Use option -force only when in urgent need.
> > ...
> >   First consider to use a medium with more  capacity  rather
> > than trying to overburn a CD.
> >
> > There are "800 MB"/"90 minutes" CD-R which could take the ISO.
> >
> > One reason for being able to overburn at all are "900 MB"/"100
> > minutes" CD-R media. They cannot announce their full capacity to
> > the drive, because together with the wasteful lead-in and lead-out
> > areas they exceed the addressing limit of 100 minutes.  
> 
> I see what i missed. I had no idea that 800MB or even 900MB CD-R
> existed. Have only seen 700MB CD-R. Which explains my disbelief that
> Debian would make a cd iso that couldn't fit into a standard cd. My
> bad. But still it is a surprise to me that nobody thought this
> deserved a mention in the release notes. I wonder if we are seeing the
> last of CD-R as a Debian install medium. Wait, there is still the mini
> iso. Ha, CD-R will live on. :)
> 
> > Have a nice day :)  
> 
> I appreciate the detailed reply very much. Thank you for taking the
> time. You have a nice day too.
> 

Just a thought: Knoppix has never considered 700MB much of a limit.

"Because of its transparent decompression, up to 2 gigabyes of
executable software can be present on a CD, and up to 10GB on a
single-layered DVD."
https://www.knopper.net/knoppix-info/index-en.html

-- 
Joe

Re: How does the bookworm amd64 netinst 738MB iso fit into a 700MB cd-r?

2023-06-18 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

siso wrote:
> The bug saved my drive fortunately. Yay for that.

I have no report of persistent damage. But drives can take offense from
overburning and then need a power cycle.

> I wonder if we are seeing the last of CD-R as a Debian install medium.

It seems not to be intented for now.

Bug 1038440 meanwhile has a comment by Cyril Brulebois:
> https://salsa.debian.org/installer-team/debian-installer/-/issues/3 has:
> Revisit firmware packages included in the netinst (amd64 is 738M for
> 12.0.0): at least nvidia stuff wasn't planned in the beginning, and
> could be removed.

But in the end there will be no way around switching netinst from CD to
DVD, if firmware shall stay. The list will grow. Decisions about removing
old hardware's firmware will be difficult.

> Wait, there is still the mini iso. Ha, CD-R will live on. :)

I rather hope for a netinst-CD ISO without firmware as companion of the
netinst DVD ISO with firmware.
Once there was the "businesscard CD" ISO with less than 50 MiB. Very handy
for xorriso regression tests.

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How does the bookworm amd64 netinst 738MB iso fit into a 700MB cd-r?

2023-06-18 Thread siso

Hi,

On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 3:32 AM Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
>
> You ran into a known bug of cdrskin which will be fixed by version 1.5.6.
> It did not even try to burn more than the official number of blocks.
>
> Nevertheless it most probably would not have worked, because 36 MiB of
> overburning is just too much for a "700 MB" CD.

The bug saved my drive fortunately. Yay for that.

> > And there it went, one good cd. FATAL indeed.
>
> Sorry for that.

Don't worry about it. It was my poor attempt at tongue-in-cheek humour
:). Just lost one CD-R. The drive is still working fine, i think.

> After fixing option -force i added quite some warning to the man page
> of cdrskin:
>
>   -force
>   Assume that the user knows better in situations when cdrskin  or
>   libburn  are  refusing  because of concerns about drive or media
>   state.
>   Caution: Use option -force only when in urgent need.
> ...
>   First consider to use a medium with more  capacity  rather  than
>   trying to overburn a CD.
>
> There are "800 MB"/"90 minutes" CD-R which could take the ISO.
>
> One reason for being able to overburn at all are "900 MB"/"100 minutes"
> CD-R media. They cannot announce their full capacity to the drive,
> because together with the wasteful lead-in and lead-out areas they exceed
> the addressing limit of 100 minutes.

I see what i missed. I had no idea that 800MB or even 900MB CD-R
existed. Have only seen 700MB CD-R. Which explains my disbelief that
Debian would make a cd iso that couldn't fit into a standard cd. My
bad. But still it is a surprise to me that nobody thought this
deserved a mention in the release notes. I wonder if we are seeing the
last of CD-R as a Debian install medium. Wait, there is still the mini
iso. Ha, CD-R will live on. :)

> Have a nice day :)

I appreciate the detailed reply very much. Thank you for taking the
time. You have a nice day too.

siso

Re: How does the bookworm amd64 netinst 738MB iso fit into a 700MB cd-r?

2023-06-18 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

siso wrote:
> I tried to write the debian-12.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso to cd using
> cdrskin and xorriso but they both refused my command.

Righteously. The ISO is just too large for "700 MB" CDs.

In
  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1038440
i wrote a comparison of old and new storage usage in the ISO:
   11.5.0   12.0.0  Growth
  /firmware 0 MiB  216 MiB 216 MiB
  /install.amd 67 MiB  138 MiB  71 MiB
  /pool   301 MiB  360 MiB  59 MiB
Together with the minor file trees of the ISO this sums up to 738 MiB.

> user@debian:~$ cdrskin -v -force dev=/dev/sr0
> ...
> cdrskin: FATAL : Exceeding range of permissible write addresses (359856 >= 
> 359844)
> cdrskin: FATAL : CDB= 2a 00 00 05 7d a0 00 00 10 00  : dxfer_len= 32768
> cdrskin: FATAL : Burn run failed

You ran into a known bug of cdrskin which will be fixed by version 1.5.6.
It did not even try to burn more than the official number of blocks.

Nevertheless it most probably would not have worked, because 36 MiB of
overburning is just too much for a "700 MB" CD.

> And there it went, one good cd. FATAL indeed.

Sorry for that.
After fixing option -force i added quite some warning to the man page
of cdrskin:

  -force
  Assume that the user knows better in situations when cdrskin  or
  libburn  are  refusing  because of concerns about drive or media
  state.
  Caution: Use option -force only when in urgent need.
  [...]
  It enables a burn run where cdrskin expects to exceed the avail‐
  able media capacity. This is known as "overburn" and might  suc‐
  ceed  on  CD  media  with  write type SAO.  Too much overburning
  might be harmful to the medium and might make the drive unusable
  (hopefully  only until it gets powered off and on). The man page
  of cdrecord mentions 88 seconds = 6600 blocks as  halfways  safe
  amount  over  the  official  medium  capacity. The assessment of
  track sizes by libburn will be wrong if the written size reaches
  or  exceeds 90 minutes = 405000 sectors. The overall medium size
  assessment by the Linux kernel is supposed to yield roughly  the
  written size, but you should test this yourself with every over‐
  burnt medium.
  First consider to use a medium with more  capacity  rather  than
  trying to overburn a CD.

There are "800 MB"/"90 minutes" CD-R which could take the ISO.

One reason for being able to overburn at all are "900 MB"/"100 minutes"
CD-R media. They cannot announce their full capacity to the drive,
because together with the wasteful lead-in and lead-out areas they exceed
the addressing limit of 100 minutes.

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

How does the bookworm amd64 netinst 738MB iso fit into a 700MB cd-r?

2023-06-18 Thread siso

I tried to write the debian-12.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso to cd using
cdrskin and xorriso but they both refused my command.

user@debian:~$ cdrskin -v dev=/dev/sr0 -sao debian-12.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso
cdrskin 1.5.4 : limited cdrecord compatibility wrapper for libburn
cdrskin: verbosity level : 1
cdrskin: NOTE : greying out all drives besides given dev='/dev/sr0'
cdrskin: scanning for devices ...
cdrskin: ... scanning for devices done
cdrskin: beginning to burn disc
cdrskin: status 1 burn_disc_blank "The drive holds a blank disc"
Current: CD-R
Track 01: data   738 MB
Total size:  738 MB (84:00.07) = 377856 sectors
Lout start:  738 MB (84:02/07) = 378006 sectors
cdrskin: FATAL : predicted session size 377856s does not fit on media (359844s)
cdrskin: HINT : This test may be disabled by option -force
cdrskin: burning failed
cdrskin: FATAL : burning failed.

user@debian:~$ xorriso -as cdrecord -v dev=/dev/sr0
debian-12.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso
xorriso 1.5.4 : RockRidge filesystem manipulator, libburnia project.

Drive current: -outdev '/dev/sr0'
Media current: CD-R
Media status : is blank
Media summary: 0 sessions, 0 data blocks, 0 data,  703m free
xorriso : FAILURE : Image size 378006s exceeds free space on media 359844s
xorriso : NOTE : Gave up -outdev ''
xorriso : FAILURE : -as cdrecord: Job could not be performed properly.
xorriso : aborting : -abort_on 'FAILURE' encountered 'FAILURE'

I also tried brasero and it too refused to burn to cd. I don't
remember the exact words brasero threw at me but they were along the
lines of cdrskin's "does not fit on media" and xorriso's "exceeds free
space on media".

"cdrskin: HINT : This test may be disabled by option -force"

I noticed that line in cdrskin. Was desperate so i gave that a try.

user@debian:~$ cdrskin -v -force dev=/dev/sr0 debian-12.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso
cdrskin 1.5.4 : limited cdrecord compatibility wrapper for libburn
cdrskin: verbosity level : 1
cdrskin: NOTE : greying out all drives besides given dev='/dev/sr0'
cdrskin: scanning for devices ...
cdrskin: ... scanning for devices done
cdrskin: beginning to burn disc
cdrskin: status 1 burn_disc_blank "The drive holds a blank disc"
Current: CD-R
Track 01: data   738 MB
Total size:  738 MB (84:00.07) = 377856 sectors
Lout start:  738 MB (84:02/07) = 378006 sectors
Starting to write CD/DVD at speed MAX in real SAO mode for single session.
Last chance to quit, starting real write in   0 seconds. Operation starts.
Waiting for reader process to fill input buffer ... input buffer ready.
Starting new track at sector: 0
Track 01:  702 of  738 MB written (fifo 100%) [buf  99%]
24.2x.cdrskin: FATAL : Exceeding range of permissible write addresses
(359856 >= 359844)
cdrskin: FATAL : CDB= 2a 00 00 05 7d a0 00 00 10 00  : dxfer_len= 32768
cdrskin: FATAL : Burn run failed
cdrskin: NOTE : WRITE command repetition happened 510 times

Track 01: Total bytes read/written: 737017856/736985088 (359856 sectors).
Writing  time:  298.965s
Cdrskin: fifo had 361951 puts and 359903 gets.
Cdrskin: fifo was 0 times empty and 35417 times full, min fill was 99%.
Min drive buffer fill was 84%
cdrskin: burning failed
cdrskin: FATAL : burning failed.

And there it went, one good cd. FATAL indeed.

What did i miss?

Thank you.

siso

Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 05:58:01PM +0100, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:
>  wrote:

[avoiding pulseaudio...]

> > [1] in spite of stubborn applications: firefox, I'm looking at you.
> 
> Using apulse solves that for me for now :)

You got it :)

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

2023-05-30 Thread Jeffrey Walton

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 8:25 AM  wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 09:20:47PM +0900, Byung-Hee HWANG (황병희) wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Also i'm using old things such as old smartphone(s) made by LG, and old
> > book <>, and old Tractor
> > (my day job is farmer in South Korea).
>
> Farmers are the most important people: they feed us. A close second: cooks.

Truckers get my vote for second.

Jeff

Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

2023-05-30 Thread debian-user

 wrote:
> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 02:04:01PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote:
> > to...@tuxteam.de (12023-05-30):  
> > > > > Rajib. In the future, all most GUI desktop(s) will run under
> > > > > Wayland. So i suggest that you have to adapt to change,
> > > > > IMHO.  
> > > I'm still hoping I give up on computers before that happens ;-)  
> > 
> > The most likely is that Freedesktop will introduce something that
> > obsoletes Wayland and something that obsoletes that thing that
> > obsoletes Wayland before the move to Wayland is complete.  
> 
> I think that's called "leapfrogging". Having successfully avoided
> pulseaudio up to now [1], I'm seriously looking into pipewire...

You're braver than I am. Let me/us know how it goes.

> Cheers
> 
> [1] in spite of stubborn applications: firefox, I'm looking at you.

Using apulse solves that for me for now :)

Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 09:20:47PM +0900, Byung-Hee HWANG (황병희) wrote:

[...]

> Also i'm using old things such as old smartphone(s) made by LG, and old
> book <>, and old Tractor
> (my day job is farmer in South Korea).

Farmers are the most important people: they feed us. A close second: cooks.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 02:04:01PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote:
> to...@tuxteam.de (12023-05-30):
> > > > Rajib. In the future, all most GUI desktop(s) will run under Wayland.
> > > > So i suggest that you have to adapt to change, IMHO.
> > I'm still hoping I give up on computers before that happens ;-)
> 
> The most likely is that Freedesktop will introduce something that
> obsoletes Wayland and something that obsoletes that thing that obsoletes
> Wayland before the move to Wayland is complete.

I think that's called "leapfrogging". Having successfully avoided
pulseaudio up to now [1], I'm seriously looking into pipewire...

Cheers

[1] in spite of stubborn applications: firefox, I'm looking at you.
-- 
tomás


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Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

2023-05-30 Thread 황병희

debian-u...@howorth.org.uk writes:

> Byung-Hee HWANG (황병희)  wrote:
>> > (...)
>> > I have begun to dislike Gnome when it switched over to wayland
>> > desktop environment. I don't like it. (...)  
>> 
>> Rajib. In the future, all most GUI desktop(s) will run under Wayland.
>> So i suggest that you have to adapt to change, IMHO.
>
> It won't be for a considerable time yet, if at all, so there's no need
> to opt for the pain now if he doesn't want.
>

Thanks! You are right.

Also i'm using old things such as old smartphone(s) made by LG, and old
book <>, and old Tractor
(my day job is farmer in South Korea).

By the way, really i like Gnome Desktop ^^^


Sincerely, Byung-Hee

-- 
^고맙습니다 _布德天下_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

2023-05-30 Thread Nicolas George

to...@tuxteam.de (12023-05-30):
> > > Rajib. In the future, all most GUI desktop(s) will run under Wayland.
> > > So i suggest that you have to adapt to change, IMHO.
> I'm still hoping I give up on computers before that happens ;-)

The most likely is that Freedesktop will introduce something that
obsoletes Wayland and something that obsoletes that thing that obsoletes
Wayland before the move to Wayland is complete.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:42:12PM +0100, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> Byung-Hee HWANG (황병희)  wrote:
> > > (...)
> > > I have begun to dislike Gnome when it switched over to wayland
> > > desktop environment. I don't like it. (...)  
> > 
> > Rajib. In the future, all most GUI desktop(s) will run under Wayland.
> > So i suggest that you have to adapt to change, IMHO.
> 
> It won't be for a considerable time yet, if at all, so there's no need
> to opt for the pain now if he doesn't want.

I'm still hoping I give up on computers before that happens ;-)

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

2023-05-30 Thread debian-user

Byung-Hee HWANG (황병희)  wrote:
> > (...)
> > I have begun to dislike Gnome when it switched over to wayland
> > desktop environment. I don't like it. (...)  
> 
> Rajib. In the future, all most GUI desktop(s) will run under Wayland.
> So i suggest that you have to adapt to change, IMHO.

It won't be for a considerable time yet, if at all, so there's no need
to opt for the pain now if he doesn't want.

Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

2023-05-29 Thread Pierre Tomon

"Susmita/Rajib"  wrote:
> [   ...   ]
>You can have a look at jgmenu: https://packages.debian.org/jgmenu
> [   ...   ]
>
>Thanks. But:
>Error: Dependency is not satisfiable: libc6 ( >= 2.34 needed)
The package is only available on testing and unstable, wait a few days
for the Bookworm release.

Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

2023-05-29 Thread Brad Rogers

On Tue, 30 May 2023 07:33:10 +0530
"Susmita/Rajib"  wrote:

Hello Susmita/Rajib,

>Mailing Lists don't ban anyone from posting.

No, but moderators do.  People (well, email addresses) certainly *can*
be blacklisted.

Now, whether or not your contact is blacklisted here, only the list
admin know.  Whether they'll confirm, or deny, I couldn't say.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
Gary don't need his eyes to see, Gary and his eyes have parted company
Gary Gilmore's Eyes - The Adverts


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Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

2023-05-29 Thread 황병희

> (...)
> I have begun to dislike Gnome when it switched over to wayland desktop
> environment. I don't like it. (...)

Rajib. In the future, all most GUI desktop(s) will run under Wayland. So
i suggest that you have to adapt to change, IMHO.


Sincerely, Byung-Hee

-- 
^고맙습니다 _布德天下_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

2023-05-29 Thread Timothy M Butterworth

On Mon, May 29, 2023 at 12:05 PM Pierre Tomon  wrote:

> "Susmita/Rajib"  wrote:
> >Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like
> >OpenBox is with LXDE?
> IIRC you wan use KWin alone (without Plasma).
>
> >I am driven by the need to get over LXDE+OpenBox environment that is
> >dying, if not already dead.
> Yes Openbox is no more maintained, but it's stable.
> Maybe you should try another X11 WM:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_X_window_managers
>
> >I have begun to dislike Gnome when it switched over to wayland desktop
> >environment. I don't like it. My best preference is a start menu ⟶
> >sub-menu ⟶ sub-sub-menu ⟶ ... ⟶ Program. Which is why I preferred
> >LXDE. But no longer.
>

Have you tried LXQT it replaced LXDE.


> You can have a look at jgmenu: https://packages.debian.org/jgmenu
>
>

-- 
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⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀

Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

From: Pierre Tomon 
Date: Mon, 29 May 2023 18:04:30 +0200
Message-id: <[🔎] 4qvl26510zz3...@smtp-3-.mail.infomaniak.ch>

 [   ...   ]
You can have a look at jgmenu: https://packages.debian.org/jgmenu
 [   ...   ]

Thanks. But:
Error: Dependency is not satisfiable: libc6 ( >= 2.34 needed)

Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

Mr. Zmudzinski has written to me with his suggestions. He said that he
is banned from mailing lists. I am uncertain whether someone can be
banned from posting. Mailing Lists don't ban anyone from posting. One
could at best have to subscribe in order to post.

Could the List Maintainers please look into the matter and apprise me
of the situation here.

To Mr. Zmudzinski: I will carefully consider your suggestions. Thank
you for sharing your insights off-list.

Best wishes,
Rajib
Etc.

-- Received message --
From: Chuck Zmudzinski 
Date: Mon, 29 May 2023 12:18:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows
Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?
To: Susmita/Rajib 

On 5/29/23 2:00 AM, Susmita/Rajib wrote:
> My dear illustrious Leaders and Senior Members of the Debian Users Mailing 
> List,
>
[   ...   ]
>
> I am driven by the need to get over LXDE+OpenBox environment that is
> dying, if not already dead.
>
[   ...   ]

Hello Rajib,

Did you try LXQT?

https://lxqt-project.org/

https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/lxqt

https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current-live/amd64/iso-hybrid/debian-live-11.7.0-amd64-lxqt.iso

https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/11.7.0-live+nonfree/amd64/iso-hybrid/debian-live-11.7.0-amd64-lxqt+nonfree.iso

I never tried the Debian live LXQT images, but I have installed the
LXQT meta package
alongside GNOME as an alternative to LXDE and it works well and comes
with OpenBox.

LXQT is built on qt5 which is the same underlying GUI toolkit that KDE
uses but is more
lightweight than KDE. It is similar to LXDE which I used to use but I
switched to LXQT
because I perceived it to be under more active development than LXDE.

P.S. I am not able to reply to you on-list because I was banned from
Debian mailing lists
by our illustrious Debian leaders for allegedly trolling, but I think
they made a mistake
about that because I am not a troll and just wanted to help out and
express my opinion
on some things as a Debian user but they censored my opinion by
banning me. A few of
our illustrious Debian leaders use their power to censor minority
viewpoints, unfortunately.

Kind regards,

Chuck

Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?

From: Roger Price 
Date: Mon, 29 May 2023 10:13:44 +0200 (CEST)
Message-id: <[🔎] 7411bfa2-f0a4-404e-ca71-70b592b59...@rogerprice.org>
In-reply-to: <[🔎]
caeg4czwo3xhha6nyxvpnoexqb6pacsvutkssykty96scwmk...@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you, Mr. Price, for your reply.
[   ...   ]
Xfce4 ?
[   ...   ]

But xfce4 is a complete desktop environment like LXDE, not a WM. So
far as I know. Please educate me if you know it is otherwise.

Re: Isn't KDE Live ISO accompanied by an ultra-light Windows Manager, like OpenBox is with LXDE?