determining serial link speed?
Hi! Is there any easy way to find out, what speed my modem connected to the ISP? (using ppp & chat on Debian Linux m68k Amiga). I want to be sure that it connected at 28800 baud and not at 14400. -- |_| _ |o _ _ Martin Steigerwald | |(/_||(_)_> http://home.pages.de/~helios -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Please but more bugs in Debian Linux ;-)
Hi! Hi, could you please put more bugs into Debian Linux? I installed it on a 386 or was it a 486 at the university and connected to the network via ethernet card on the first try. That base system booted, I did a ping somehost.domain.de and it worked Thats way to easy. Could I please have some nasty installation problems and bugs and such back? I want to pay $100 for a software and have bugs, and now I pay nothing and have no bucks. What do I get? ;-) (Hey, dont take this serious;-) If I remember trying to get Windows 95 to the same point... headaches... But unfortunately they do install Win95/Novell for the new computer pool for the students of education. I tried to persuade them to use Linux, but failed. So: Thank you, thank you, thank you all who develop Linux and Debian Linux for doing such a great job!!! (AmigaOS/p.OS and Unix/Linux are the best OSes;-) A question I have anyway: The 386 or 486 has a Microsoft Serial Port Compatible mouse. I couldnt try a working driver module for that one. Microsoft Bus mouse did not work, PS/2 mouse did not work... I tried every mouse driver that has been in the list... any ideas? -- |_| _ |o _ _ Martin Steigerwald | |(/_||(_)_> http://home.pages.de/~helios -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
german distributors of Debian 1.3 CD-ROM?
Hi! Are there any? I read in a thread here I dont find now something about a bookstore called Lehmann which distributes it with a printed manual. Anyone got the address of that bookstore or an ISBN-number of the thing? -- |_| _ |o _ _ Martin Steigerwald | |(/_||(_)_> http://home.pages.de/~helios -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
staroffice / netscape debian packages?
Hi! It may have been asked before but I didnt find it in my messagebase (must have been flushed out already.): 1) is there a staroffice debian package? if yes, where? 2) is there a netscape debian package? if yes, where? does not have to be the newest version, more important is wether is runs stable 3) does the dosemu supports Windows? Appart from that the Debian installation on a 486 worked like a charm. I installed from the base disc I made out from a CD with Debian 1.2 and then installed everything else via network (since the machine I installed debian on did not have a working cd rom drive at the moment.). Have to upgrade to kernel 2.0.29 tough. I certainly can recommend the debian distribution to everyone who wants to install Linux and will do that. Hope that debian m68k will sooner or later get into this mature state. Is there a debian ppc in development? I look forward to buy a ppc based machine next year, either a CHRP or a Amiga successor ;-) -- |_| _ |o _ _ Martin Steigerwald | |(/_||(_)_> http://home.pages.de/~helios -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
system broken... ;-(
Hi! The next time I could work on this problem is not before Thursday next week, e.g. somewhere around the 4+3+7... hmmm 14th August. So this message is not that urgent but I would appreciate any (helpful answer) very much. I need some help. I installed a Debian 1.2 base system, then updated the whole thing to 1.3 from ftp.de.debian.org. All worked well. I should not have touched the system any further... but I could resist. I added unstable to the list of distributions, re-got the package lists. Then selected some of the new packages... updating was done automatically. But then a dependency problem occured which I couldnt resolve to easily. I was a little bit annoyed and press "Q" for dependency override. Then the problems began. Many packages didnt install correctly... libc6 didnt configure in the 1st pass... and soon after that there often was the message that libreadline.so.2 wasnt found. I didnt notice that this lib is so important. Everything what I already started ran OK. But then I had to go for an appointment elsewhere. So I thought I may try out whats actually broken by rebooting the system... hmmm... everything is broken. It is not able to get its hostname and I am not able to login as root cause libreadline2 is missing. So my question is: Is there any way to resolve this situation without sitting before the computer for several ours? I guess I would be able to resolve all those dependency problems. Actually I was able to find a selection of packages that doesnt cause any dependency problems but I didnt have the time to apply it. I guess that the system *might* boot when the file libreadline.so.2 could be accessed. There are some base packages broken, but with libreadline I might be able to get a prompt and I might be able to start dselect at least. I have a rescue disc and several system boot discs (Kernel 2.0.27,29,30), I have the base install discs V1.2. It would be good to be able to solve this problem without re-installing the base1.2 system. Could I extract the file libreadline.so.2 from the approbiate debian package I download via ftp on my Amiga or with MS-DOS, start the rescue floppy and simply copy it in the lib directory? If I have to re-install the base system, would be config files (network config, x11/xf86 config, my user settings) be preserved or overwritten? I aprreciate any help I can get this topic cause I want to get this system running again without sitting ours before the computer... I should not have tried the instable dist I know, but after a mistake one is more clever than before. -- |_| _ |o _ _ Martin Steigerwald | |(/_||(_)_> http://home.pages.de/~helios -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
x11 font&res setting
Hi! How can I set global font and another resolution than 1152x900 for X11? Is there a debian specific thing that eases stuff like this? If not, sorry for asking here. Someone pointed me to the Xresources file, but I didnt actually understand whats going on in there or in related man pages. -- |_| _ |o _ _ Martin Steigerwald | |(/_||(_)_> http://home.pages.de/~helios -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
x11 font&res setting
Hi! I dont know if this is really debian specific... how do I set the approbiate fonts for an resolution of 1152x900 or how do I set another resolution? I ask here cause maybe there is something Debian specific that eases setting things like this. I didnt find really clear docs that I actually understood about setting a resolution or fonts... I tried to set the default fontdir to 100dpi fonts but then I have again a fixed width font which is to small in the xterm windows. I am using fvwm95-2 for now. If you could drop me a link to usable info upon this I would highly appreciate it... -- |_| _ |o _ _ Martin Steigerwald | |(/_||(_)_> http://home.pages.de/~helios -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: How I fixed my trashed Debian system
> OK. If this helps just one person I think it's worth typing up. I welcome > any suggestions of things I may have missed fixing or cleaning up. Thank you very much. Hmmm, this looks rather complicated and time consuming. I which there would be an easier way... I am always thinking wether it is enough to get libreadline working and to try if the system might boot then again. Once I am in and once I can at least run dpkg from a console I might be able to get at least that base packages to work again. Geee... I am looking for a way to fix this broken system without sitting ours upon it. Richard Morin told me to look at /etc/inetd.conf and to copy the backup of this file back and he told me that this should help me to get into the system. But that I thought this problem is libreadline related cause of the error messages that librealine.so.2 could not be loaded. Hmm at least that will teach me not to use an unstable distribution once again on a system I need for work. (It at least should tell me that;-) -- |_| _ |o _ _ Martin Steigerwald | |(/_||(_)_> http://home.pages.de/~helios -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
installing debian packages to an other fs as root
Hi! Is it possible to use dpkg to install debian packages to an other filesystem as /root? I might need to install a new base system onto a free partition in order to get my broken debian system fixed without to much hassle. I would then like to boot this base system and install working base packages over the broken ones in my broken system. I therefore want to mount this broken system under e.g. /I-am-a-idiot/ and then tell dpkg to just install the packages there... then installing libreadline2 onto my broken system again might already get it so far that I can boot it. Ideally I would like a way to get it to boot from a rescue discs, but I dont think that this is possible as I have to get the packages from the internet cause the cd-rom drive is broken and I have only Debian 1.2 CD. -- |_| _ |o _ _ Martin Steigerwald | |(/_||(_)_> http://home.pages.de/~helios -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
dpkg from rescue disc
Hi! Is it possible to run dpkg from a system only booted by an rescue disc. If that libreadline package is still on the harddisc I then might be able to fix my system really easily. -- |_| _ |o _ _ Martin Steigerwald | |(/_||(_)_> http://home.pages.de/~helios -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
system rescued, some quirks left
Hi! I rescued that debian i386 system by doing somewhat like a complete reinstall of Debian 1.3 stable. I have learned my lesson and will not use unstable anymore for a computer that I need for work. (I had to re-install cause I forget the printed-out descriptions from some of you how to fix debian at home, shame on me... I did not remember how to do it correctly.) One problem is left... some of the new installed packages fail to post-install (dosemu for example) cause the command suidregister or suidunregister is not found, but needed by the script. These commands are actually not here, I tried in a shell. I re-installed all base packages with dpkg and there a no dependency problems anymore. In which package can I find the above two commands? -- |_| _ |o _ _ Martin Steigerwald | |(/_||(_)_> http://home.pages.de/~helios -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: kernel for m68k 68060 amiga 4000 tower ?
> hy. > > my friend has such a machine, but no working kernel. > can someone send me a working kernel ? andreas I would also like to find a kernel that doesnt have this 040 bug. After I installed bash2.01 and new fileutils, my system is broken and I cant boot in unless I have a fixed kernel image or installed the old files (but I dont want to redownload base13.tgz all again.) -- |_| _ |o _ _ Martin Steigerwald | |(/_||(_)_> http://home.pages.de/~helios -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
StarOffice installation
Hi! I managed to install StarOffice via its own installation routine, but not via the Debian installer package. If I try dpkg-i-ing the installer packages it fails to find the StarOffice *.tar.gz files. But this files are in the same directory I started the installation from. Where do I have to put the archive files if not in the active directory? Should I put them into /tmp? If yes, can I remap /tmp to another already existing partition? /tmp is laying on a 50MB root partition which is maybe 50% full and doesnt have enough space to hold all the needed archives. I use the static linked StarOffice binaries. Is there any way to use the dynamic linked one other than buying Motif? Is there any way to speed up starting of StarOffice application without plugging more memory into the computer? I am using a 486 and 16 MB of RAM. Hopefully I will get another 16 MB, but God knows when. That might stop swapping. -- |_| _ |o _ _ Martin Steigerwald | |(/_||(_)_> http://home.pages.de/~helios -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: looks better
Hi George, Am Montag 10 September 2007 schrieb George Adamides: > Dear Martin and all, > Thank you for your help. OK I used the commands you suggested > aptitude install xserver-xorg kde-core and > aptitude install kdat > and I believe things were OK. > > Now I have the following info > > >> george:/var/www/arinet.ari.gov.cy/docs/themes/phpkaox# cat > >> /etc/debian_version 4.0 > >> george:/var/www/arinet.ari.gov.cy/docs/themes/phpkaox# cat > >> /etc/apt/sources.list #deb file:///cdrom/ sarge main > >> deb http://ftp.fi.debian.org/debian/ stable main > >> deb-src http://ftp.fi.debian.org/debian/ stable main > >> deb http://security.debian.org/ stable/updates main > >> deb http://dotdeb.pimpmylinux.org/ stable all > >> deb-src http://dotdeb.pimpmylinux.org/ stable all > >> george:/var/www/arinet.ari.gov.cy/docs/themes/phpkaox# apt-cache > >> policy kdat kdat: > >> Installed: 4:3.5.5-4 > >> Candidate: 4:3.5.5-4 > >> Version Table: > >> *** 4:3.5.5-4 0 > >> 500 http://ftp.fi.debian.org stable/main Packages > >> 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status > OK, so please let me clarify this, does the above imply that I have > Debian Etch now (since its version 4)? Seems so - 4.0 is Debian Etch. In order to find out whether all packages were upgraded to Debian Etch, you can use my apt-show-version grep examples, but when aptitude upgrade doesn't want to upgrade any packages and does not hold any packages back, you are on Debian Etch since you have "stable" in your /etc/apt/sources.list. If aptitude upgrade / dist-upgrade wants to update packages or holds some back there are still packages that are not upgraded to Debian Etch. > How do I start KDE? startx or install a display manager with aptitude install kdm > Last, do I > run kdat from within KDE or can I use command line at the command > prompt to run kdat? It need to access a running X server and KDE I think. I did not look closer at kdat, but if it does not have a command line mode it will need a way to display its GUI. Regards, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: NOT QUITE: headphones still don't work.
Hi Hendrik, Am Dienstag, 17. September 2013, 00:32:49 schrieb Hendrik Boom: > On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 00:02:29 +, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 21:43:21 +0100, Klaus wrote: > >> Can this be another instance of a muted Master switch? What do get for: > >> > >> $ amixer info > >> $ amixer contents > >> $ amixer scontents > >> > >> See the amixer man page for how to un-mute using CLI. > >> Or try alsamixer, pressing "M" toggles muting. > > > > Yes, pressing 'M' on alsamixer did the trick. > > But sound turns off as soon as I plug the headphones in, and on again when > I unplug them. I expected to be able to hear sound through the headphones. Well unmute them as well? I have this issue as well. Once I press the mute button on this ThinkPad T520 both are muted, but when I press it again, they are not unmuted, so I have to do this manually via alsamixer. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2166075.vHvQCyeSRt@merkaba
Re: SSD as Cache?
Hi Jochen, hi Paul, Am Freitag, 8. November 2013, 17:24:22 schrieb Jochen Spieker: > Paul Johnson: > > On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:12 AM, basti wrote: > >> Can this cache moved to SSD? > >> Months ago I read articles about SSD and Flash Memory like: > >> - "Disable logging on SSD" > >> - "Disable cache on SSD" > >> - "Don't swap on SSD" ... > >> > >> And today? > >> How long will the SSD work without data loss? > > > > How many writes is the SSD rated for? I'd still generally consider flash > > as generally read-only or disposable. > > The answer to your question is device-dependent. For my old Intel X25m, > Intel guaranteed 5 years of service with 20GB writes per day. That is > quote a lot for desktop/notebook use cases. More recent models have a > shorter lifetime because of increased NAND density. Similar to the Intel SSD 320 here, which still claims to be new: merkaba:~> smartctl -a /dev/sda | egrep "^(ID#|172|183|199|228|226|233|241|242)" ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE UPDATED WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE 172 Erase_Fail_Count0x0032 100 100 000Old_age Always - 169 183 Runtime_Bad_Block 0x0030 100 100 000Old_age Offline - 0 199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count0x0030 100 100 000Old_age Offline - 0 226 Workld_Media_Wear_Indic 0x0032 100 100 000Old_age Always - 2204077 228 Workload_Minutes0x0032 100 100 000Old_age Always - 13054351 233 Media_Wearout_Indicator 0x0032 100 100 000Old_age Always - 0 241 Host_Writes_32MiB 0x0032 100 100 000Old_age Always - 328371 242 Host_Reads_32MiB0x0032 100 100 000Old_age Always - 855085 I have about 328371 * 32 MiB = 10261,594 GiB or about 10 TiB writes, in 2,5 years. Yet the SSD still claims to be new, see media wearout indicator. I recommend leaving some additional free space. There is a PDF from Intel regarding long time performance which clearly show that this helps, unless you already have a heavily overprovisioned SSD – there are special ones for extra long durability. With some understanding on how a SSD works this is easily understandable. Look for explainations of the term write amplification to get a picture. For a 10 GB cache, I recommend a 32 GB or even 64 GB and to heavily overprovision it. Make a 20 GiB logical volume on it and leave the rest untouched unless you need it. Mount with noatime, do a additional fstrim via cron job from time to time. Should out live any harddisk this way. If you want to go even safer, look for a SLC SSD. These are more expensive but SLC flash can take up to 10 erase cycles while MLC up to 1 and that never variante of MLC only several thousands. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream
Hi Miles, Am Freitag, 26. September 2014, 11:09:07 schrieb Miles Fidelman: > Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, 25. September 2014, 01:45:50 schrieb lee: > >> Martin Steigerwald writes: > >>> Am Montag, 22. September 2014, 23:50:46 schrieb lee: > >>>> Martin Steigerwald writes: > >>>> > >>>> Do you really think they will be able to prevent all the other > >>>> software from depending on a particular init system or parts of it? > >>> > >>> Well… thats to be taken upstream, isn´t it? > >> > >> Then why don't the developers or the distributions do just that? Nobody > >> cares when one user or another questions whether it's a good idea to > >> depend on systemd, and it might be much different if a lot of developers > >> and/or whole distributions would, in the interest of their users, > >> question this dependency and refuse their support eventually until the > >> issues systemd and software depending on it brings about. > > > > […] > > > >> Fedora does already depend on systemd --- and I would say completely. > >> Or do you see a choice here? > > > > And exactly *how* is this relevant to Debian? > > > >>> And still I think its important to take this upstream. > >> > >> Upstream, from the users point of view, are the makers of the > >> distribution in the first place. I can't very well make a bug report > >> against systemd directly because Debian has decided to support it, can > >> I. That's not a problem of systemd. > >> > >> To get involved with everything seems to have been a design decision of > >> systemd. What do you expect will happen when I make a bug report > >> directly against systemd, explaining them that it's broken by design? > >> > >> Or should I make a bug report against the X server because it depends on > >> systemd? Or the other way round? Or perhaps against cups instead? > >> > >>> Or to *help*. Make a logind that does not depend on systemd. Offer it to > >>> the upstreams that need it. > >> > >> I'm sure it would be ignored or rejected --- even if I had the knowledge > >> to make anything like that and was able to keep up with what other ppl > >> are doing. > > > > I do think that you don´t want change. > > > > You expect distro developers to fix it for you. You are not willing to > > take > > things upstream. > > So let's see: > - the technical committee selects takes a vote that essentially imposes > systemd on all of the upstream developers and packagers > - systemd seems to have some rather frequently changing APS's - to the > extent that systemd-shim lags well behind > - but the resulting impacts should be taken up with each and every > upstream developer? > > Somehow that doesn't sound right. On any account: If you think its better to bring this up with debian developers, by all means do it. If you think its better to do xyz instead of my suggestion, by all means do it. But my challenge to all of you who don´t want systemd as default in Debian still is this: *Stop* complaining and *start* acting. For the reasons I explained in what I think crystal clear words that I do not feel like repeating here again. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1989516.SXxv4O1Ouh@merkaba
Re: Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream
Am Freitag, 26. September 2014, 14:51:01 schrieb Miles Fidelman: > John Hasler wrote: > > Miles Fidelman writes: > >> the technical committee selects takes a vote that essentially imposes > >> systemd on all of the upstream developers and packagers > > > > Where the hell do you get that from? > > Isn't that effectively what happened? > > If I'm an upstream developer, and I want my stuff to run on Debian, I > now have to include systemd init scripts (or the packagers do). > > Sure, it's "voluntary" - but not really. Oh, the same way I could say: I am forced to write init scripts for a package. As I recently just did: And guess what: On writing a debianized variant of the atopacctd initscript where the upstream initscript actually caused lintian warnings I clearly learned about the limitations of it. Look at it [1] and tell me how you like that it unconditionally kills any process named atopacctd and the PIDFILE variable is not even used anywhere in the script. I´d have a clear word for that: crap. Now you can argue upstream needs to implement PID file handling for a double forking daemon. But I make is a case now that systemd needs *less* care of upstream, rather than more. It forces *less* on upstream than sysvinit for best practice. With systemd upstream doesn´t have to change the actual implementation of the daemon. And even without a service file it will just use the initscript anyway, with the same limitation then. [1] https://github.com/teamix/atop-debian/blob/master/debian/atopacct.init Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/4908539.RHXGUvsFBi@merkaba
Re: Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream
Am Freitag, 26. September 2014, 13:08:50 schrieb The Wanderer: > On 09/26/2014 at 12:44 PM, Martin Read wrote: > > On 26/09/14 16:09, Miles Fidelman wrote: > >> - but the resulting impacts should be taken up with each and > >> every upstream developer? > > > > As far as I can see, the issue that people are suggesting should > > be taken up with upstream developers is "application XYZ has > > annoying and seemingly unnecessary dependencies on interfaces of > > systemd, making it hard to keep systemd off my systems". > > The trouble with recommending to take that upstream is that it's > entirely legitimate for a program to depend on externally-provided > interfaces, and indeed in the conceptual ideal a program should neither > know nor care what provides those interfaces. > > It would be better, from a design perspective, to fix the unnecessary > dependency problems at the core - that is, in systemd - rather than > requiring all of the upstreams to make changes in response to changes in > systemd. > > Only if systemd upstream will be uncooperative, and refuse to fix the > problems, would taking it to the multiple upstreams make sense - and > even then, forking systemd or providing another source for the systemd > interfaces would probably be a better solution. (Though still not as > good as fixing the design at the core.) I didn´t suggest to take this upstream to projects utilizing systemd only. I just suggested taking it upstream. Whatever upstream seems approbiate to take it, by all means do it. Also if the upstream is systemd. I started a thread voicing my concerns about the polarity and resistance systemd seems to create. But again: If you just insist on complaining here *only*, *nothing* and I repeat *nothing* will ever change about anything what you dislike about systemd. So if you *really* want change, you *act*. Its *that* *simple*. Take is upstream with systemd, take it upstream with GNOME for logind, take it upstream with ConsoleKit developers if there are any left. Help uselessd developers, test their variant of systemd, help systembsd people, offer to package it for Debian, organize a vote and present the hypothetical big majority for not having systemd as a default in Debian to debian developers… … but by any means if you really want change, do something that facilitates it. Now I will talk myself into stopping replying here. I made my point and I think it is best for me to filter the threads and hope that the group (thread) ignore feature in KMail works okay now, or report a bug about it, if it does not. If you want to continue to misunderstand me or take my words too literally, if you want to continue to rationalize in order to resist going farer than just complaining, thats your choice, but please leave me alone with it. (Well thats my job, and I work on it. By trying out the group ignore feature next.) -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1817112.SdLmvI8TFu@merkaba
Re: Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream
Am Freitag, 26. September 2014, 19:08:13 schrieb Ric Moore: > On 09/26/2014 05:08 PM, green wrote: > > Ric Moore wrote at 2014-09-26 14:18 -0500: > >> Change is certainly needed when any pimple face kid can edit and hide his > >> doings from a text log with nano. I think the change is necessary to > >> harden > >> up our systems. Otherwise, Microsoft will become the only secure server > >> OS, > >> as they don't mind hiding things at all. > > > > So, all other things being equal, binary logs are more secure than > > plain text logs. Is that actually what you are saying? > > Yes. The benefit of using a binary log is the lesser vulnerability to an > external attack from an intruder. That huge security flaw was mentioned > on a recent PBS video regarding the new day Hackers and how simply they > removed/edited text-log files to hide their tracks of what they did. I think I read on uselessd site, that rsyslog has a signing feature meanwhile. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/17453900.1PNaJrGDDq@merkaba
Re: Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream
Am Samstag, 27. September 2014, 22:04:38 schrieb lee: > Andrei POPESCU writes: > > On Vi, 26 sep 14, 01:58:44, lee wrote: > >> Again, I consider it to be totally futile to try to convince the makers > >> of systemd to fix the issues it brings about. They cannot be unaware of > >> them, so obviously they don't want to fix them. I've seen for myself > >> that they don't want to fix even little bugs which would be easy to fix > >> from the bug report I made about their misunderstanding of what > >> "disabled" means. > > > > Could you please provide a link to that? > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=990177 Thank you for sharing that actually did something about an issue you had with systemd. I found systemd closing bug reports, I thought to be valid, but OTOH they also fixed an issues that Michael Biebl brought to them from one of my Debian bug reports. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/47086284.FMK7snKTYd@merkaba
Re: Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream
Am Samstag, 27. September 2014, 22:13:21 schrieb lee: > Martin Steigerwald writes: > > Am Freitag, 26. September 2014, 10:43:14 schrieb Andrei POPESCU: > >> On Vi, 26 sep 14, 01:58:44, lee wrote: > >> > Again, I consider it to be totally futile to try to convince the makers > >> > of systemd to fix the issues it brings about. They cannot be unaware > >> > of > >> > them, so obviously they don't want to fix them. I've seen for myself > >> > that they don't want to fix even little bugs which would be easy to fix > >> > from the bug report I made about their misunderstanding of what > >> > "disabled" means. > >> > >> Could you please provide a link to that? > > > > Lee´s comments like this completely prove to me that Lee does not want any > > change from status quo. > > Your assumption is wrong. I appreciate change for the better, not for > the worse, and in case of systemd, I don't believe that there is any way > to change anything about it. So you just complain here over and over again to vent your frustration? If you do not believe systemd upstream is willing to help with the change you want to see, there are endless other ways to help to facilitate changes. I listed some here in other posts: Organize a vote and present result to upstream developers, install systemd-shim and cgmanager and test it, install init-select and test it, install openrc and test it, help systembsd people, help packaging it for Debian once ready or help find a packager… start affirming daily for changes to happen and… and… and… So I still stand by it: If you remain in *complaining* and continue to resist *something* about what you want to see as a change… you effectively don´t want change. Your bug report regarding systemd is a start. There are other options. I repeated them here again. And no, I don´t want to hear rationalizations why none of my suggestion can work at all. This is still free software, this is still open source, this is still forkable, there are *tons* of option for helping change. Maybe some my not be as comfortable as you wish… but helping with change often needs *some* effort. > Go ahead and prove me wrong. Why? Why do think I would waste my own time like this? I decided to give systemd a chance on my systems and see what this brings me. I decided for a practical approach. And so far the systems I installed it on didn´t explode or anything like this. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2613725.LTvWzHUfLG@merkaba
Re: Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream
Am Samstag, 27. September 2014, 22:55:36 schrieb lee: > Martin Steigerwald writes: > > Why do I think that you do not want change from the *current* situation? > > Cause what you do, in my oppinion does not facilitate change. > > I think I see why you think so. What makes you think that anything you > or I could do would change anything? Cause I believe you are as powerful as anyone else here. Really powerful. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2028624.Sbgz5xjMjs@merkaba
Re: Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream
Am Sonntag, 28. September 2014, 04:35:03 schrieb lee: > Martin Read writes: > > On 27/09/14 21:04, lee wrote: > >> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=990177 > > > > Your complaint about the interface is reasonable. The systemd > > developers' decision to not change the interface in response to your > > complaint was also reasonable. > > I never said it was totally unreasonable. I'm saying it would probably > be easy to fix and that they simply don't want to. If they wanted to, > they could and would. It is still *one* bug report tough. Yes, I know there are others, systemd developers closed as won´t fix. Yet, look around a bit: That is true for *any* bigger software project I have seen so far. Lots of "won´t fix" bug in KDE´s bugzilla as well for example. And I do not always agree with the decisions. So acting for change, you may meet resistance. But that initially resistance is just that… an initial response towards change. A even natural response. Yet it does not mean that change is impossible. Quite the opposite is true. I have seen systemd upstream and also systemd debian developers acting on bugs and fixing them. Yes, I was frustrated with some of the reactions of Michael Biebl for example, closing bugs quickly without resolving them, but first I found my tone at that time to be contributing to that outcome, and second after I pleaded to him in one bug report not to close it immediately, he didn´t close it… and… we worked together on some other issues. He told me what about he needs and I gave it to him. Was it an easy ride for me? No. For him? I bet not. But that way I have facilitated some change. It may also be true that systemd upstream won´t be willing to implement the change you want to see. But if you choose to keep your power with yourself, instead of giving it to others, you are still powerful, even in that case. An there are other options to create change. I also still believe that if systemd developers did completely off the limits think, they would quickly be forked. I also believe that if Linus messed up horribly with Linux developers, someone would start a Linux kernel fork. So I believe there is quite some peer review with systemd stuff and there is some real agreeing to they way it implements thing. And there are alternatives of which you may to choose any of them. A co-worker goes with sysvinit, systemd and cgmanager cause he dislikes systemd. I encouraged him to. This way I find bugs in systemd stuff as I chose to give it a chance, and he finds bugs in the alternative. You are free and powerful to do something like that and I highly encourage you to do it. Its still about choice in Debian. Jessie will support alternative init systems. And you can help with that. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/7263586.nK0vUN3ayF@merkaba
Re: systemd and server use
Am Freitag, 26. September 2014, 13:36:27 schrieb Dan Ritter:
> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 01:02:16PM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA512
> >
> > On 09/26/2014 at 12:26 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > On Fri, 26 Sep 2014 12:03:57 +0200 Martin Steigerwald
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >> Actually systemd has quite some features which benefits server
> > >> use.
> > >>
> > >> For example:
> > >>
> > >> 1) It groups services and shell sessions into process control
> > >> cgroups and shields them against each other CPU usage wise.
> > >>
> > >> 2) It is really good at catching the PIDs of the services it
> > >> runs, no matter what funny things they do like double forking. So
> > >> it exactly stops these PIDs and no others.
> > >>
> > >> 3) Compare systemctl service status with /etc/init.d/service
> > >> status. Its obvious that the systemctl output is way more useful
> > >> to administrators.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Can these be implemented elsewhere? I´d say yet for 1. Yet 2 and
> > >> partly 3 I think is the core of an init system.
> >
> > Agreed - definitely 2, maybe / maybe-not 3, and definitely not 1.
>
> Start an xterm.
>
> $ bash
> $ ulimit -u 2000
> $ :(){ :|:& };: # THIS IS A FORK BOMB.
>
> watch it run 2000 processes and then start erroring.
>
> open another xterm, verify that they are real.
>
> Close the first xterm.
>
> Verify that the processes are gone.
>
> ulimit can also be applied in PAM at login time for users, or for specific
> daemons.
Good point.
But control groups are more flexible with that: You don´t need to impose a
upper process limit which might be too low.
And still: With stress -c 2000 you slow down a system *a lot* already. So what
limit is sane? Basically I don´t know.
With cpu control groups you do not need that limit.
Ciao,
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
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Re: systemd and server use
Am Freitag, 26. September 2014, 13:02:16 schrieb The Wanderer: > > Martin, > > > > I don't think anybody's complaining about those features. Those > > are excellent features that should be done in PID 1. > > Actually, some people (I believe including me) are in fact complaining > about the inclusion of the cgroup-management feature in PID 1. Not > because there's anything wrong with the feature, but because it > shouldn't be handled in PID 1, because... > > > The only *technical* thing people are griping about is the > > gratuitous entanglement with all sorts of other things, including > > user programs and GUI window managers/desktop environments. > > ...of this. The inclusion of cgroups management in PID 1 (and nowhere > else, except by way of an independent break-the-systemd-entanglements > project) is, AFAICT, *the* major source of the in-practice dependencies > resulting from that entanglement. > > Whether there are technical obstacles to implementing it equally > effectively outside of PID 1 is a potentially fair question, and not one > to which I yet have an answer. The existence of cgmanager seems to > indicate that it can at least be implemented reasonably effectively, > however, even if not necessarily equally so. As far as I remember Lennart or another systemd developers explained in detail why it was done this way, and that it can´t be done in any other way. I am always cautious with limiting sentences like "can´t be done" tough. Cause inventious inventors often enough proved previous "can´t be done" to just be plain wrong. Better would be to say "I don´t know a way to do it *right now*" Well it might be good to summarize things. An idea to do this might be to start splitting this thread in "concern #1: this and this… ", then elaborate just that in a sub thread and in the end summarize it, or use a wiki or start with what boycottsystem people have wrote. Make each point short and to the point, yet concise enough and filled with examples that demonanstrate the issue. And for what you wrote: use less d might be what you are looking for? Maybe someone wants to package it for Debian? I bet, if uselessd upstream is serious about what he – I guess the person behind it is a male, but I am not completely sure as the webpage itself does not seem to disclose his or her identity – did, sooner or later someone will package it for Debian anyway. We have upstread, openrc and sysvinit of which the later two and systemd is selectable in init-select so what gives. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1578044.JzT1UzvYvB@merkaba
Re: systemd and server use
Am Freitag, 26. September 2014, 22:41:04 schrieb Reco: > Hi. > > On Fri, 26 Sep 2014 13:02:16 -0400 > > The Wanderer wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA512 > > > > On 09/26/2014 at 12:26 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > > On Fri, 26 Sep 2014 12:03:57 +0200 Martin Steigerwald > > > > > > wrote: > > >> Actually systemd has quite some features which benefits server > > >> use. > > >> > > >> For example: > > >> > > >> 1) It groups services and shell sessions into process control > > >> cgroups and shields them against each other CPU usage wise. > > >> > > >> 2) It is really good at catching the PIDs of the services it > > >> runs, no matter what funny things they do like double forking. So > > >> it exactly stops these PIDs and no others. > > >> > > >> 3) Compare systemctl service status with /etc/init.d/service > > >> status. Its obvious that the systemctl output is way more useful > > >> to administrators. > > >> > > >> > > >> Can these be implemented elsewhere? I´d say yet for 1. Yet 2 and > > >> partly 3 I think is the core of an init system. > > > > Agreed - definitely 2, maybe / maybe-not 3, and definitely not 1. > > 1 - libpam-cgroup > > 2 - daemontools, runit, many others. Then go and support these. Test them and help them to be available and tested in Debian. Help them so have sane defaults and so. If you don´t like systemd as a default in Debian that are at least some other options for acting on it. > 3 - usability of 'systemctl status' feature is actually questionable, if > you count in troubleshooting-over-phone usecase. In that case less is > better than more. Oh, in that case I certainly prefer a this and this and this and prefer to listen for the phone partner to read it all out… instead of "oh it failed, but it doesn´t tell why". That said systemctl status also doesn´t always tell why as I learned already. Or at least not immediately so. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2764642.jQ7QsSs4lO@merkaba
Re: About dependency creep
Am Freitag, 26. September 2014, 13:00:08 schrieb Peter Nieman: > On 25/09/14 18:16, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > The KDE project has spent *years* of development to reduce dependency > > creep. > I don't think KDE is the problem here. I don't remember ever having run > into a situation where installing a non-DE package resulted in KDE > components being pulled in. But that happens all the time with Gnome, to > the extent that nowadays you can do practically nothing with your Debian > PC if you want to avoid Gnome. And these Gnome dependencies contribute > nothing but cruft to a non-DE desktop. Have some examples? Well, I think I have some GNOME stuff for some gtk based or GNOME based apps, but I don´t have a GNOME desktop itself installed. martin@merkaba:~> apt-show-versions | grep gnome celestia-gnome:amd64/sid 1.6.1+dfsg-3+b1 uptodate gir1.2-gnomekeyring-1.0:amd64/sid 3.12.0-1 uptodate gnome-desktop3-data:all/sid 3.14.0-1 uptodate gnome-icon-theme:all/sid 3.12.0-1 uptodate gnome-keyring:amd64/sid 3.14.0-1 uptodate gnome-mime-data:all/sid 2.18.0-1 uptodate gnome-session-bin:amd64/sid 3.14.0-1 uptodate gnome-user-guide:all/sid 3.14.0-1 uptodate libgnome-2-0:amd64/sid 2.32.1-5 uptodate libgnome-desktop-3-10:amd64/sid 3.14.0-1 uptodate libgnome-keyring-common:all/sid 3.12.0-1 uptodate libgnome-keyring0:amd64/sid 3.12.0-1 uptodate libgnome2-0:amd64/sid 2.32.1-5 uptodate libgnome2-bin:amd64/sid 2.32.1-5 uptodate libgnome2-common:all/sid 2.32.1-5 uptodate libgnomecanvas2-0:amd64/sid 2.30.3-2 uptodate libgnomecanvas2-common:all/sid 2.30.3-2 uptodate libgnomeui-0:amd64/sid 2.24.5-3 uptodate libgnomeui-common:all/sid 2.24.5-3 uptodate libgnomevfs2-0:amd64/sid 1:2.24.4-6 uptodate libgnomevfs2-common:all/sid 1:2.24.4-6 uptodate libgnomevfs2-extra:amd64/sid 1:2.24.4-6 uptodate libpam-gnome-keyring:amd64/sid 3.14.0-1 uptodate libsoup-gnome2.4-1:amd64/sid 2.48.0-1 uptodate libswt-gnome-gtk-3-jni:amd64/sid 3.8.2-3 uptodate openbox-gnome-session:all/sid 3.5.2-7 uptodate policykit-1-gnome:amd64/sid 0.105-2 uptodate python-gnome2:amd64/sid 2.28.1+dfsg-1 uptodate (of course thats not showing GNOME related packages that do not have "gnome" in their name.) Anyway, it was just an example that desktops per se don´t *have* to create a dependency mess. Its work to limit dependencies and modularize things, but its possible. Yet as of logind KDE has a similar issue than GNOME if systemd-logind is the only maintained alternative… as it currently appears to be. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2544341.zSA8YL3aQd@merkaba
Re: systemd and server use (was: Re: Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream)
Am Freitag, 26. September 2014, 23:21:36 schrieb martin f krafft: > also sprach Steve Litt [2014-09-26 18:26 +0200]: > > If systemd was just a PID1 with the features you enumerate above, > > I'd be dancing in the street, not looking for a way out. > > Beautiful. I had to: > https://twitter.com/martinkrafft/status/515611660128903170 ;) Concern noted, and agreed I am also vary of the sheer size of the systemd executable. "1,3 MiB are you serious?" I want to ask and probably will ask on systemd devel. But it for sure would help I think if I weren´t the only one debian-user subscriber voicing concerns there. And again I suggest to look at uselessd. Maybe you want to package it? I may even try it out. I am not sure I feel experienced enough yet to package it myself. And I decided to give systemd a chance. To take my partly theoretical concerns like "oh this is big and does a lot" aside for a moment and actually *experience* first how it behaves in practice. And to that I had much less issues than I had with PulseAudio. On my own systems still no PulseAudio, as I still have problems when I use PulseAudio that simply *go away* on purging it. Last was with OpenAL games sound with gaps in it. And I voiced quite some of my issues partly loudly to PulseAudio upstream and there I much more had the impression that I get "thats not a usual usecase, go away" kind of answers, than so far I had with systemd debian packagers and systemd upstream. I even think: systemd debian packagers have quite some pressure to prove now that systemd as a default is going to work nicely for Jessie. I think this is an invitation to file any bug or erraneous behaviour you see. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Let's have a vote!
Am Sonntag, 28. September 2014, 23:50:45 schrieb Chris Bannister: > On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 09:49:10PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Sat, 27 Sep 2014 18:32:38 -0400 > > > > Ric Moore wrote: > > > On 09/27/2014 02:49 PM, lee wrote: > > > > Just ask yourself: Why would someone choose to download an ISO for > > > > Debian? > > > > > > For me, it's the safest way to install/upgrade. I have had too many > > > problems with interrupted live major migration to the next release > > > level via an upgrade, or a live network total install. Owell, I'm > > > not huge fan of cloud based services either. :) Ric > > > > Yes. I'm a huge believer in wiping and reinstalling major versions. > > It's like spring cleaning, and I eliminate ghosts of operating systems > > past. > > And then there's the rest of us who run Debian precisely because you > don't have to reinstall. It's great because you only ever need to > install once. +1. I never reinstall. I maintain my systemd in a way that I do not think I need it. Well for 64-bit I did a reinstall. But on server I think about cross-upgrading with multi-arch. I didn´t yet see an official or not official guide on how to do it, but I just don´t like to reinstall my server VM for 64 bit. Anyway its not even needed there at the moment, so as long as Debian provides 32-bit x86 and the server VM only has 512 MiB of RAM. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1655346.ADEZMRMceI@merkaba
Re: Let's have a vote!
Am Sonntag, 28. September 2014, 12:55:32 schrieb Martin Steigerwald: > Am Sonntag, 28. September 2014, 23:50:45 schrieb Chris Bannister: > > On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 09:49:10PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > > On Sat, 27 Sep 2014 18:32:38 -0400 > > > > > > Ric Moore wrote: > > > > On 09/27/2014 02:49 PM, lee wrote: > > > > > Just ask yourself: Why would someone choose to download an ISO for > > > > > Debian? > > > > > > > > For me, it's the safest way to install/upgrade. I have had too many > > > > problems with interrupted live major migration to the next release > > > > level via an upgrade, or a live network total install. Owell, I'm > > > > not huge fan of cloud based services either. :) Ric > > > > > > Yes. I'm a huge believer in wiping and reinstalling major versions. > > > It's like spring cleaning, and I eliminate ghosts of operating systems > > > past. > > > > And then there's the rest of us who run Debian precisely because you > > don't have to reinstall. It's great because you only ever need to > > install once. > > +1. > > I never reinstall. I maintain my systemd in a way that I do not think I need > it. Lol, what a typo. My system of course :) -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2025789.8lcIfVtKs4@merkaba
Re: Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream
Am Sonntag, 28. September 2014, 07:51:14 schrieb The Wanderer: > On 09/28/2014 at 05:34 AM, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > It may also be true that systemd upstream won´t be willing to > > implement the change you want to see. But if you choose to keep > > your power with yourself, instead of giving it to others, you are > > still powerful, even in that case. An there are other options to > > create change. > > > > I also still believe that if systemd developers did completely off > > the limits think, they would quickly be forked. > > The trouble with that is that some (many?) people think they already > *have* done completely off-limits things, and yet many other people are > arguing that those things are not completely off-limits, and/or that > their benefits outweigh that beyond-the-pale status. > > As I've said from fairly early on (on debian-devel, not here), there are > fundamental philosophical differences about software design between the > sides here - under and below any differences in what > currently-manifesting practical behaviors each side does or does not > consider a problem. > > (Those differences go beyond just "people who object to systemd" vs. > "the systemd developers, by the way. They also extend to "people who > object to systemd" vs. "people who think there's nothing wrong with > systemd", and/or "people who may see things wrong with systemd, but > don't think there's anything wrong with its being (made the default / > installed automatically)", et cetera.) I believe that if there are enough people with those concerns who decide to act, there will be an alternative to systemd. Its as simple as that. It always worked this way in free software. So it always comes back to the challenge I called out for. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2215491.86l1WybV0M@merkaba
Re: Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream
Am Sonntag, 28. September 2014, 11:18:22 schrieb Steve Litt: > On Sun, 28 Sep 2014 11:02:35 +0200 > > Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Am Freitag, 26. September 2014, 14:51:01 schrieb Miles Fidelman: > > > John Hasler wrote: > > > > Miles Fidelman writes: > > > >> the technical committee selects takes a vote that essentially > > > >> imposes systemd on all of the upstream developers and packagers > > > > > > > > Where the hell do you get that from? > > > > > > Isn't that effectively what happened? > > > > > > If I'm an upstream developer, and I want my stuff to run on > > > Debian, I now have to include systemd init scripts (or the > > > packagers do). > > > > > > Sure, it's "voluntary" - but not really. > > > > Oh, the same way I could say: > > > > I am forced to write init scripts for a package. As I recently just > > > did: > The difference being that the Linux *you* originally moved *to* > required init scripts. Nobody changed everything on you. Well with that I can argue to better never change *anything*. I wonder what developers of the Linux kernel, of KDE, or you-name-what would say to this idea. I no what I self would say to it: I want change. Change is life. There is nothing static in life. Except God, as much as you believe in it, or as I believe even if you do not believe in it. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1957711.VCDzImNO8t@merkaba
Re: systemd and server use
Am Sonntag, 28. September 2014, 12:51:52 schrieb Steve Litt: > On Sun, 28 Sep 2014 12:09:48 +0200 > > Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > As far as I remember Lennart or another systemd developers explained > > in detail why it was done this way, and that it can´t be done in any > > other way. > > I'm especially fond of the "it's not unmodular, it's made from modules" > argument. Here's my take on that... > > http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/lol_systemd.htm Nice one :) -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/4592908.VfTNLld68T@merkaba
Re: Moderated posts?
Am Montag, 6. Oktober 2014, 17:42:14 schrieb Steve Litt: > Hi all, > > Several of my posts to lists.debian.org have not made it to the list, > as defined by both my inbox and the list archive. These posts all had > something in common, and it was *not* swearwords or gratuitous > personal insults. > > So if you've seen some of your posts not be posted, be aware that > somebody might be moderating your posts. And when it's pointed out that > your opinion is a minority, keep in mind that it might just appear > to be a minority because many posts from like minded people might not > have been moderated rather than posted. How about first contacting listmasters about that than *assuming* there might be moderation. There may be any numbers of reasons why some of your mails do not reach the listing, including but not limited to reasons that may even be on your side of the mail setup that may accidentally trigger spam filters in use. AFAIK there is no moderation on this list. Would be very time consuming as well. I filed an abuse complaint regarding some recent gross verbal abuses and personal attacks here that clearly violate netiquette as I am not willing to tolerate these. So you may not see anything from some of the obvious verbal abuse from anti systemd trolls here anymore who cross-posted their abuse to LKML as well. But none of your posts have been under this. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/9834439.19Jk2cNE6k@merkaba
Re: Moderated posts?
Am Dienstag, 7. Oktober 2014, 09:28:51 schrieb The Wanderer: > On 10/07/2014 at 02:58 AM, Joel Rees wrote: > > As Don pointed out, it's the threads that have been clipped, as it > > were, not the topics: I think it's probably just as well, as those > > threads themselves were started by either a sockpuppet or someone who > > had lost control of himself, and the threads were counterproductive. > > > > > > > > So I can say, "systemd!" here, > > > > > > > > And this post will still not be blocked. > > And that's fair enough in its way. (Though it does unfairly also hit > subthreads which were not on the same topic anymore, but I can see where > trying to be fine-grained enough to comb out one but not the other might > well be more trouble than it would be worth.) > > But it should still be accompanied by a public announcement that such > action is being taken, with at least a vague indication of which > thread(s) are being so filtered - and/or a system of automated replies > (possibly rate-limited to stymie DoS efforts) to any attempt to reply to > such a thread, explaining the situation. > > Doing such moderation silently, without comment or explanation, is just > not cricket. I agree with that. I assumed there would be no moderation on the list in any way. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: About chromium in Jessie - "API keys missing" and Clang
Hi Florent, Am Montag, 13. Oktober 2014, 09:43:40 schrieb Florent Peterschmitt: > Hello, > > I'm curious about two thing in the chromium browser package in Debian > Jessie: > > - I (we?) get a message about Chromium API keys missing. Does that > avoid Chromium being able to speak with google for sync and so on? (If > yes, it's a good idea, for me) A quick search of "chromium google api key problem" in startpage turns up https://bugs.debian.org/748867 And here is what works for me: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=748867#117 So at least sometimes a search machine can help you to help yourself quickly. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: how to boot in les than 8 minutes
Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2014, 18:52:41 schrieb Pierre Frenkiel: > hi, > it seems that tha last version of systemd in jessie (215-5+b1) > has a big number of bugs, among which the very long time to shutdown, mainly > for samba (5 minutes). Trying to kill samba manually before the shutdown > did not solve the problem. > I then tried to downgrade to version 208-8, which is available > according the output of "apt-cache madison systemd" > > systemd | 215-5+b1 | http://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/ jessie/main i386 > Packages > systemd | 208-8 | http://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/ > jessie/main Sources ^^^ > systemd | 215-5 | http://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/ > jessie/main Sources ^^^ Just source packages. > > but I get: > > apt-get install systemd=208-8 > Reading package lists... Done > Building dependency tree > Reading state information... Done > E: Version '208-8' for 'systemd' was not found > > What is wrong? See above. You would need to get the package with apt-get source and build it yourself. Since such a setup would be unsupported I suggest reporting the bugs. It will also help Debian Jessie have less bugs when its released. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/152.IfX0URMpqL@merkaba
insane hibernation policy (war: Re: All roads to suspend/hibernate lead through systemd?)
Hi Joe, Am Samstag, 18. Oktober 2014, 21:17:48 schrieb Joe: > On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 12:44:23 -0500 > > Nate Bargmann wrote: > > No, this is not a troll (seems like that is necessary to state up > > front). I have been experimenting with dropping systemd from my > > laptop running Sid but find that even with xfce4-power-manager > > suspend nor hibernate are available any more unless I install the > > policykit-1 package recommended by the upower package which depends on > > libpam-systemd which, even if I install systemd-shim, also installs > > the systemd package as a dependency, even though it won't run as PID > > 1. > > > > Has anyone worked out a way to enable suspend in xfce4-power-manager > > without ultimately installing systemd? > > No, but this sheds a little light elsewhere. About a year ago I was on > LXDE, and suddenly the GUI shutdown and reboot stopped working. I spent > a month or so typing in a password in order to shut down my single-user > workstation, then got fed up with it. There seemed to be no suggestion > as to when it might be fixed, nor any hint that I needed to install > anything else, so I switched to Xfce. > > I've never got suspend, hibernate etc. to stay working properly on sid > for any length of time, and the only non-sid Linux installation I have > is a server, so I don't use them. Look here: Bug #727645 [polkit-kde-1] polkit-kde-1: requires root password for hibernate, wrongly reports other users are logged https://bugs.debian.org/727645 Bug #717731 [upower] upower: authentification is required for hibernating while other users are logged in https://bugs.debian.org/717731 and more recently here: Bug#747939: systemd: prevents hibernation without password with open screen session in other login session https://bugs.debian.org/747939 I am not even sure that has been all reports of mine. I had it with a second KDE session, I have it with a screen session inside a KDE session, in any account it was so dire insane it isn´t even funny anymore. I still have the following polkit in there, cause with two KDE sessions open I think I still have the issue: merkaba:/etc/polkit-1> cat ./localauthority/50- local.d/org.freedesktop.upower.pkla [Suspend/hibernate permissions] Identity=unix-group:sudo Action=org.freedesktop.login1.hibernate-multiple- sessions;org.freedesktop.login1.suspend-multiple-sessions ResultAny=yes ResultInactive=yes ResultActive=yes I think any asking for a password on a *single seat* machine for hibernation is a bug, is a bug, is a bug. I am the only one with a keyboard on it, and I am the only one allowed to SSH into it, so I am the only one permitted to hibernate the system. And if I do this from a unlocked desktop session, I am authenticated already, so please just leave me *alone*. I dislike software that tries to be more intelligent as me. I dislike policies like this limiting my freedom. And I invite you to comment or add to the bug reports I mentioned, or if they are closed already, and you still have an issue, open a new one and tell me. So far it feels to me that I have been the only one yelling to the developers regarding that dire policy insanity. Its as insane as requiring a root login for Linus daughter in order to set up a printer in some OpenSUSE version. I may one day try again without the above file to make policykit policy sane. It might even be important, cause if Jessie gets released with that insanity, I can only imagine the uproar here on this list, in bug tracker, and elsewhere. Well, maybe it has been fixed meanwhile, I didn´t try removing the file for a while. Cause honestly I couldn´t be bothered with this kind of dire insanity anymore. But on any account, people, please report bugs. Please make your voice regarding systemd and/or policykit troubles be heard. As long as I am one of the few reporting things there… chances are I might get ignored again. Of course it also depends on the tone. Express your anger and your frustration in a "I am" way? Sure. But avoid accusing or insulting people. So please don´t just use above work-around – or policy *correction* – also voice your concern, and if it is a simple "I have this issue two with this and that…" mail to one of the existing bug reports. Thanks, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1590834.76OczWI13J@merkaba
Re: If Not Systemd, then What?
Am Montag, 20. Oktober 2014, 19:49:43 schrieb Jimmy Johnson: > > So, what would you all propose? For a server? Or for a user desktop? > > Or something that fulfills both scenarios? And why? > > > > Just wondering. > > See above and unless you are a tester or developer you may want to > roll-back to Squeeze. Why Squeeze? Wheezy has sysvinit just fine… and so or so I expect Jessie to work with sysvinit as well. Squeeze has security support through the LTS initiative that only provides this support for a reduced set of packages. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/282804258.gtEqSjICmt@merkaba
Re: If Not Systemd, then What?
Hi Raffaele, Am Dienstag, 21. Oktober 2014, 10:18:49 schrieb Raffaele Morelli: > Here are some interesting things one should be aware of before > http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html > > Read enough about but still haven't read something really valuable against > systemd from eg. Torvalds, Eric Steven Raymond, etc... (if you do, post the > link) > > I believe the main issue with systemd and the community mainly the > "badass-ness" of the guys in this "init system war" or whatever you prefer > to address at. > > Using systemd since 2014-08-09 with no issues. I think this is certainly a good read for background. I also suggest to revisit [systemd-devel] I wonder… why systemd provokes this amount of polarity and resistance http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023290.html Rob from this list voiced some concern there. And I added hints about debianfork.org and also raised some issues here now. This is where upstream really gets to see the feedback. So I again suggest you voice your concerns there. Politely and in enough detail. Or as some of you do, work on the alternatives. Lets see what comes out of the GR: I hope it goes for restricting dependencies to PID 1 tightly. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5729685.ll3milQcNW@merkaba
Re: Avoiding SystemD isn't hard
Am Mittwoch, 22. Oktober 2014, 07:04:12 schrieb Jape Person: > On 10/21/2014 09:22 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: > > Don Armstrong wrote: > >> On Tue, 21 Oct 2014, Miles Fidelman wrote: > >>> which is immediately followed by completely inaccurate information, > >>> including: > >>> > >>> -- > >>> "With jessie, it will become /easier/ to choose the init system, because > >>> *neither init system is essential now*. Instead, there is an essential > >>> meta-package "init", which requires you to install one of systemd-sysv | > >>> sysvinit-core | upstart. In other words, you have more choice than ever > >>> before." > >> > >> This statement is actually correct; until this change it was not > >> possible to completely replace sysvinit with another init system without > >> running dpkg-divert commands to divert the init away. > > > > ok. > > > >>> When, in fact, there IS no way to prevent systemd from being installed > >>> during installation (except for upgrades). > >> > >> That preseeding doesn't do this is a bug, it's filed (#668001), and the > >> patch for it was just written on Friday the 17th. Because Debian is > >> going to freeze in less than three weeks, the maintainers are wary of > >> applying this patch this close to release without extensive testing. > >> > >> Furthermore, the effect of this patch is trivially obtained by using a > >> late_command to remove systemd-sysv and install sysvinit-core. > > > > except for the various reported issues with all the things aptitude > > wants to remove when you try this (I really hate unwinding highly > > entangled dependencies). > > > >> If you actually want to see this patch applied to the version of the > >> Debian installer that Jessie will release with, you should coordinate > >> with the nice people in #debian-boot to see what type of testing they > >> would want to see before they are willing to vet the patch. > > > > Good point - will see how receptive they are. > > > >>> Which leaves the only option being to install, with systemd, then follow > >>> the instructions in > >>> https://randomstring.org/blog/blog/2014/10/14/removing-systemd-from-a-d > >>> ebian-jessie-system/>>> > >>> |# apt-get install sysv-rc sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils > >>> > >>> # apt-get purge systemd libpam-systemd systemd-sysv > >> > >> This is the wrong command to run. You want: > >> > >> aptitude install sysvinit-core systemd-sysv-; > >> > >> Removing libpam-systemd and systemd something depends on them isn't > >> useful; they don't determine what the init system is, after all. > > > > seems like we could use some definitive instructions on how to actually > > do this; we now have: > > > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/09/msg00969.html > > and > > https://randomstring.org/blog/blog/2014/10/14/removing-systemd-from-a-debi > > an-jessie-system/ > > > > (where I copied the above instructions from) > > followed by: > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/09/msg00998.html > > and now your comments above > > - plus the various bug reports about how to avoid mass uninstallations > > by aptitude (e.g., > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/10/msg00409.html) > > > > A distinct lack of clarity, given the TC resolution about expecting > > Jessie to support multiple init systems, but not actually having a > > clearly defined way to do anything except hack until one gets things to > > work. > > > > Miles Fidelman > > I haven't paid a lot of attention to threads concerning systemd because > of the (unfortunate, though occasionally entertaining) hyperbole and > innuendo employed by so many of the involved parties. I mostly despaired > of finding anything substantive in the various threads. > > But I'm glad you (and Don Armstrong) have been among the more reasonable > participants in the argument. > > I was wondering if either of you -- or anyone else -- has tried the > init-select package to see if it is actually able to avoid adverse > effects upon the installed software while allowing the user (presumably > someone with root privs) to select among init systems. That would be > nice, wouldn't it? > > I intend to look at it this weekend, if I can find some time for a > little project. I'm guessing that it's pretty basic, and maybe not meant > for use on systems with DEs, DMs, WMs, and lots of GUI user applications > installed on them. It it works for those, then the author truly deserves > congratulations. > > I hope everyone finds a way to get a system configuration s/he can live > with happily! I did, as did a co-worker of mine. It appears to be basically working, but not always does what I would expect from it. So I reported some bug reports about it: init-select init-select adds sysvinit while systemd already there https://bugs.debian.org/762558 init-select: assumes systemd is default while its not https://bugs.debian.org/762578 http://bugs.debian.org/init-select shows one other bug regarding functionality: init-select: Offers
Debian and upstream choices
I understand people creating new threads partly now, as any thread with the magic word list admins seem to put into the thread filter easily Am Mittwoch, 22. Oktober 2014, 13:40:49 schrieb Jochen Spieker: > Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis: > > after spending two days trying unsuccesfuly to have a usable Jessie > > with one of the defaults DE and with no systemd utilities, i decided > > the following. In the companie's pc's i support, i'll continue with > > Wheezy and if there is no a clear path to Jessie without a trace of > > systemd until Wheezy's support lifetime then bye - bye Debian. > > Good luck finding *any* distro with a current Gnome that does not depend > on systemd. > > I really don't get why Debian receives so much hate in this discussion. > Upstream software depending on systemd is not Debian's choice. I wouldn´t call above hate. More frustration with the current situation. Anyway thats why I tried putting this upstream and even challenged subscribers here to do so as well in quite direct words. I tried putting it upstream in this thread: [systemd-devel] I wonder… why systemd provokes this amount of polarity and resistance http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023290.html But I have given up on this. I have been called names on systemd-devel – Lennart personally called me "being a dick" – while trying hard to describe, explain and interpret my obversations regarding systemd as PID 1, as umbrella project for quite a lot of different functionalities and as a community project. I think I didn´t personally attack anyone, while… still using clear words to channel some of the concerns about systemd I read here and elsewhere upstream. But I didn´t get it across. Lennart and other devs reacted as if I attacked them personally. I bet its understandable given the history of bashing Lennart and other devs of systemd and systemd in general has received. Yet as I see it, I didn´t attack personally, but was attacked personally in return. Since that does not work for me, I unsubscribed from the systemd-devel mailing list. One of the main reasoning for putting it all into one git repo and one big package I read before that was: Because it is easy for development and splitting things would add considerable cost. While I agree with that… I also think that not splitting it, adds considerable cost to downstreams and porters and actually harms adoption of systemd as init. So I still think that just doing it the easy way does not necessarily mean doing it the best way possible. And from the reaction I received while talking, in quite direct words admittedly, but without calling names and without assuming any bad intentions as I repeatedly and explicetely stated there, I know better understand on why systemd triggers the uproar, the polarity, and the split tendendencies and tend to agree that Aaron Seigo has a point with: Aaron Seigo, four paths, 7th of October 2014: http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2014/10/four-paths.html And while I have been repeatedly asked to stay on a technical level only there… I see more than a technical issue here. I am sad about the friction and cost it creates. But I am also sure Debian as a project will manage. I will stay with systemd on my personal systems for the time being. At least the mean ones, except the server VM which is still Wheezy. Partly due to learning things with systemd so I can prepare training slides for my Linux trainings for it. Partly for helping that as long systemd remains the default of Debian, it will be tested and work nicely. But I am more open now to also look to alternatives as I think there are dire issues with the path systemd upstream developers are choosing with developing and advocating their project as well as with handling feedback and bug reports. I have seen it otherwise. In the end I felt like being in a hostile environment and thus I finished my reporting it upstream. Maybe systemd will be seriously forked, maybe uselessd will be packaged, maybe someone steps up with a completely new init or whatever… … but I agree that it would be wise to ensure support for mutiple inits in Debian for the time being. To restrict dependencies to it so that there will be a good exit path in case it will be needed. So I am in favor for the GR Ian started. And well regarding GNOME: Its not GNOME 3 for me for various other reasons already. I tried using it for one day during my trainings and then was so happy being back at KDE / Plasma again. I still want to define how I want to work with my computers. I don´t need developers deciding for me. For me KDE / Plasma still gives me that choice to a very great extent. Maybe I failed at avoiding personal attacks, but I still think I didn´t. On any account, my attempt to bring this upstream did not produce the outcome I wanted to produce, so I stopped it. That said I never tried putting things upstream with GNOME so far… but my h
Debian and upstream choices (was: Re: Keep using Debian without GNOME and SystemD)
Am Mittwoch, 22. Oktober 2014, 13:40:49 schrieb Jochen Spieker: > Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis: > > after spending two days trying unsuccesfuly to have a usable Jessie > > with one of the defaults DE and with no systemd utilities, i decided > > the following. In the companie's pc's i support, i'll continue with > > Wheezy and if there is no a clear path to Jessie without a trace of > > systemd until Wheezy's support lifetime then bye - bye Debian. > > Good luck finding *any* distro with a current Gnome that does not depend > on systemd. > > I really don't get why Debian receives so much hate in this discussion. > Upstream software depending on systemd is not Debian's choice. I wouldn´t call above hate. More frustration with the current situation. Anyway thats why I tried putting this upstream and even challenged subscribers here to do so as well in quite direct words. I tried putting it upstream in this thread: [systemd-devel] I wonder… why systemd provokes this amount of polarity and resistance http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023290.html But I have given up on this. I have been called names on systemd-devel – Lennart personally called me "being a dick" – while trying hard to describe, explain and interpret my obversations regarding systemd as PID 1, as umbrella project for quite a lot of different functionalities and as a community project. I think I didn´t personally attack anyone, while… still using clear words to channel some of the concerns about systemd I read here and elsewhere upstream. But I didn´t get it across. Lennart and other devs reacted as if I attacked them personally. I bet its understandable given the history of bashing Lennart and other devs of systemd and systemd in general has received. Yet as I see it, I didn´t attack personally, but was attacked personally in return. Since that does not work for me, I unsubscribed from the systemd-devel mailing list. One of the main reasoning for putting it all into one git repo and one big package I read before that was: Because it is easy for development and splitting things would add considerable cost. While I agree with that… I also think that not splitting it, adds considerable cost to downstreams and porters and actually harms adoption of systemd as init. So I still think that just doing it the easy way does not necessarily mean doing it the best way possible. And from the reaction I received while talking, in quite direct words admittedly, but without calling names and without assuming any bad intentions as I repeatedly and explicetely stated there, I know better understand on why systemd triggers the uproar, the polarity, and the split tendendencies and tend to agree that Aaron Seigo has a point with: Aaron Seigo, four paths, 7th of October 2014: http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2014/10/four-paths.html And while I have been repeatedly asked to stay on a technical level only there… I see more than a technical issue here. I am sad about the friction and cost it creates. But I am also sure Debian as a project will manage. I will stay with systemd on my personal systems for the time being. At least the mean ones, except the server VM which is still Wheezy. Partly due to learning things with systemd so I can prepare training slides for my Linux trainings for it. Partly for helping that as long systemd remains the default of Debian, it will be tested and work nicely. But I am more open now to also look to alternatives as I think there are dire issues with the path systemd upstream developers are choosing with developing and advocating their project as well as with handling feedback and bug reports. I have seen it otherwise. In the end I felt like being in a hostile environment and thus I finished my reporting it upstream. Maybe systemd will be seriously forked, maybe uselessd will be packaged, maybe someone steps up with a completely new init or whatever… … but I agree that it would be wise to ensure support for mutiple inits in Debian for the time being. To restrict dependencies to it so that there will be a good exit path in case it will be needed. So I am in favor for the GR Ian started. And well regarding GNOME: Its not GNOME 3 for me for various other reasons already. I tried using it for one day during my trainings and then was so happy being back at KDE / Plasma again. I still want to define how I want to work with my computers. I don´t need developers deciding for me. For me KDE / Plasma still gives me that choice to a very great extent. Maybe I failed at avoiding personal attacks, but I still think I didn´t. On any account, my attempt to bring this upstream did not produce the outcome I wanted to produce, so I stopped it. That said I never tried putting things upstream with GNOME so far… but my hopes currently aren´t high that this would produce a desirable result. And… I am not using GNOME. So I don´t care about GNOME upstream decisio
Re: If Not Systemd, then What?
Hi Jimmy, Am Mittwoch, 22. Oktober 2014, 09:17:16 schrieb Jimmy Johnson: > Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Am Montag, 20. Oktober 2014, 19:49:43 schrieb Jimmy Johnson: > >>> So, what would you all propose? For a server? Or for a user desktop? > >>> Or something that fulfills both scenarios? And why? > >>> > >>> Just wondering. > >> > >> See above and unless you are a tester or developer you may want to > >> roll-back to Squeeze. > > > > Why Squeeze? Wheezy has sysvinit just fine… and so or so I expect Jessie > > to > > work with sysvinit as well. > > Hi Martin, Something I did not know at the time you asked the question: > Why Squeeze?. > > Is that Wheezy was used by Debian to test systemd and even though I did > not know this at that time I did not feel comfortable using Wheezy as my > main desktop and now knowing that Wheezy is capable of installing > systemd it will not be my main desktop until systemd is proven to be > safe to use, I need to know more than words from a blog or a wiki to > feel comfortable. > > I have been able to customize Squeeze to do all and behave as good as > Wheeze but probably a little faster and once again I feel like a "Happy > Debian User". :) While Wheezy has systemd packages and it somewhat works, but also had lots of issues in my testing with really systemd packages, its optional. So as long as you do not install it, you will have sysvinit just as with Squeeze. So systemd is not a reason to delay an update from Squeeze to Wheezy. Its Jessie/Sid that are under some circumstances difficult to use without systemd. As to my current knowledge one of the circumstances is an installed GNOME desktop. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/13094961.CDQsp2eu1D@merkaba
Re: If Not Systemd, then What?
Am Mittwoch, 22. Oktober 2014, 12:34:16 schrieb Jimmy Johnson: > Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Am Mittwoch, 22. Oktober 2014, 11:37:51 schrieben Sie: > >>> Its Jessie/Sid that are under some circumstances difficult to use > >>> without > >>> systemd. As to my current knowledge one of the circumstances is an > >>> installed GNOME desktop. > >> > >> I install using the Debian-Live-KDE-iso(another project I have helped > >> with) and will continue my testing and upgrading of Debian systems for > >> as long as Debian fits my needs. > >> > >> Upon the first sign of a backdoor and/or keylogger being installed and > >> used in Debian by default it will begone and mentally ripped to shreds. > > > > Huh? Where does your fear of that come from? > > Martin, "fear"..I have no fear..but I'm not naive ether and taking this > subject any further on list I will not do, but you are welcome to > contact me off list. Jimmy, I wrote to you off list, and you put my personal reply on the list. Please don´t do that. I mean personal replies as personal replies. I think I am not interested into digging into this topic further anyway. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/3337305.afCvyX72Cr@merkaba
Re: Debian and upstream choices
Please do not Cc me personally. Hello Lee, Am Montag, 27. Oktober 2014, 00:05:03 schrieb lee: > Martin Steigerwald writes: > > Maybe I failed at avoiding personal attacks, but I still think I didn´t. > > On > > any account, my attempt to bring this upstream did not produce the outcome > > I wanted to produce, so I stopped it. > > Well, remember what I told you? Well yes. You didn´t know the outcome. I didn´t either. You guessed. Unfortunately the outcome was more as you guessed than as I hoped. So what actually is the point. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/8787213.dzuIpkdb6n@merkaba
Re: Suggestion for systemd and /usr on seperate partition
Hello Hans! Am Donnerstag, 30. Oktober 2014, 10:27:50 schrieb Hans: > Dear maintainers, You only reach the systemd maintainers by pure luck this way. I know one is subscribed to debian-user-german, I am not sure about debian-user. I suggest you use BTS or dig for a debian systemd maintainers mailinglist or contact mail address. And thanks for the friendly tone in your mail. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/7183433.aMuxTiWbfE@merkaba
Re: Mount order after systemd update
Am Sonntag, 2. November 2014, 16:17:05 schrieb Martin Manns: > Dear all Hi Martin, > After switching to systemd, I would like to get back the following > behavior: > > Mount multiple lvm-crypt volumes with password entry on startup. > Mount several loopback devices from files within these volumes. > > With sysvinit, I had put the mount order into /etc/fstab and everything > worked as expected. How so? In fstab in the column "pass" you can only specify the fsck order, not the mount order. > After switching to systemd, mount operations seem to be spawned in > parallel. This has the following consequences: Asking to find out whether this is a regression or just a different behavior. Did you also check debian-user and debian-user-german threads, I think lvm- crypt + systemd has been discussed several times. Don´t know whether mutiple mounts have been a topic tough. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1632526.ilQ4grhy9I@merkaba
Re: How to enable larger mouse pointers under X
Am Freitag, 7. November 2014, 22:21:27 schrieb Joel Roth: > Hi list, Hi Joel, > I need larger mouse pointers. > > I'm running sid, using i3 and icewm as window managers. > AIUI cursor images are set through X, and do not belong > to the window manager. > > My first attempt was: Wow, what a challenge this seems to be it you do not have a desktop that allows you to set it. I just configured a pointer of size 48 in KDE Plasma and I just get a large pointer then. I don´t know what it does in the background to achieve that tough. But just as a heads up that a large pointer actually works. I don´t know whether its 48 pixel or 48 point. It seems to be larger than 48 pixel tough, which still may be pretty small on this 15 inch Full HD display. Anyway, I large my mouse cursor fast so I find it easily with the eyes. And on typing text in applications its usually blanked out anyway. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/3336743.GUCVEvjToM@merkaba
Re: How to enable larger mouse pointers under X - SOLVED
Am Samstag, 8. November 2014, 05:55:58 schrieb Joel Roth: > On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 12:15:09PM +0300, Reco wrote: > > Hi. > > > > On Fri, 7 Nov 2014 22:21:27 -1000 > > > > Joel Roth wrote: > > > Hi list, > > > > > > I need larger mouse pointers. > > > > > > I'm running sid, using i3 and icewm as window managers. > > > AIUI cursor images are set through X, and do not belong > > > to the window manager. > > > > > > My first attempt was: > > > > > > % apt-get install big-cursor > > > > > > Restarting X brings no change. The docs suggest commenting > > > out "Xcursor.theme: whiteglass" in /etc/X11/xdm/Xresources, > > > however this didn't help. > > > > You've selected a correct package, but docs suggested you a wrong way to > > configure it (that recommendation applies to xdm only). > > > > Try adding 'Xcursor.theme: big-cursor' to your user's .Xresources file. > > Or, if you need systemwide change - to /etc/X11/Xresources/local. > > Hmmm. This didn't help, but I got the bright idea to > modify /etc/alternatives/x-cursor-theme as follows: > > [Icon Theme] > Inherits=big-cursor > > Which makes a difference! update-alternatives --config x-cursor-theme shows a lot of cursor themes to choose from here. And these are stored in /etc/X11/cursors The alternative mechanism just seems for selecting one. Ah, its oxy-black here, thats the one I see in kdm display manager. But KDE / Plasma overrides it on login with what I set in the systemsettings module for it. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/34525347.hbSVbBLxHa@merkaba
Re: How to enable larger mouse pointers under X - SOLVED
Am Samstag, 8. November 2014, 07:24:04 schrieb Joel Roth: > On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 05:58:38PM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Am Samstag, 8. November 2014, 05:55:58 schrieb Joel Roth: > > > On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 12:15:09PM +0300, Reco wrote: > > > > Hi. > > > > > > > > On Fri, 7 Nov 2014 22:21:27 -1000 > > > > > > > > Joel Roth wrote: > > > > > Hi list, > > > > > > > > > > I need larger mouse pointers. > > > > > > > > > > I'm running sid, using i3 and icewm as window managers. > > > > > AIUI cursor images are set through X, and do not belong > > > > > to the window manager. > > > > > > > > > > My first attempt was: > > > > > > > > > > % apt-get install big-cursor > > > > > > > > > > Restarting X brings no change. The docs suggest commenting > > > > > out "Xcursor.theme: whiteglass" in /etc/X11/xdm/Xresources, > > > > > however this didn't help. > > > > > > > > You've selected a correct package, but docs suggested you a wrong way > > > > to > > > > configure it (that recommendation applies to xdm only). > > > > > > > > Try adding 'Xcursor.theme: big-cursor' to your user's .Xresources > > > > file. > > > > Or, if you need systemwide change - to /etc/X11/Xresources/local. > > > > > > Hmmm. This didn't help, but I got the bright idea to > > > modify /etc/alternatives/x-cursor-theme as follows: > > > > > > [Icon Theme] > > > Inherits=big-cursor > > > > > > Which makes a difference! > > > > update-alternatives --config x-cursor-theme > > > > shows a lot of cursor themes to choose from here. > > > > And these are stored in /etc/X11/cursors > > In my system, they are in /usr/share/icons. Well then you edit a non config file in /usr. I try to avoid this, but heck, if it works for you. Interesting, I have KDE and comix cursor themes and these install to /etc/X11/cursors: martin@merkaba:~> LANG=C dpkg -S /etc/X11/cursors/oxy-steel.theme oxygencursors: /etc/X11/cursors/oxy-steel.theme martin@merkaba:~> LANG=C dpkg -S /etc/X11/cursors/ComixCursors-White.theme comixcursors-righthanded: /etc/X11/cursors/ComixCursors-White.theme I actually love the big fat colorful comixcursors. Its abolutely impossible to miss this one on the screen :) > > The alternative mechanism just seems for selecting one. > > However, it doesn't list big-cursor as an alternative. I never used this one. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5426368.LP0I1TVt9Z@merkaba
Re: Not this again
Am Dienstag, 18. November 2014, 00:29:15 schrieb golinux: > UGH! Looks like Gregory Smith has returned with a new handle - > SystemBlues. Does anybody read his swill? No. And I see no point in discussing this here in yet another somewhat systemd related thread. I regularily delete all his mails from LKML. He spammed LKML like mad recently and I am not aware of any abuse complaint reporting of it, but I may look it up now too. I know it may be tempting to reply or do something about it, but in case you want to do something I think only two things make sense: 1) Ignore. 2) Report to listmasters – as I did with his initial posts after he crossed over the boundaries of any netiquette I have seen so far. I would only choose this if he actually crosses boundaries of netiquette tough or does mass posting of same mail over and over again. Thanks, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/10988353.RtOqt5la3q@merkaba
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI: > On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700 > > Aaron Toponce wrote: > > > It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about > > > systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me > > > this way. > > > > # apt-get install upstart > > # apt-get install sysvinit-core > > # apt-get install openrc > > No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly. > > Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after Jessie, > when systemd may well become compulsory..." Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable without having any systemd related package installed. I.e. making: merkaba:~> LANG=C apt-get purge systemd Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required: amor analitza-common blinken cantor cantor-backend-kalgebra filelight kaccessible kalgebra kalgebra-common kalzium kalzium-data kanagram kbruch kcharselect kcolorchooser kde-config-cron kde-icons-mono kdeaccessibility kdeadmin kdeartwork kdeartwork-style kdeartwork-theme-window kdeartwork-wallpapers kdeedu kdeedu-kvtml-data kdegraphics kdegraphics-mobipocket kdegraphics-strigi-analyzer kdegraphics-thumbnailers kdemultimedia kdenetwork kdenetwork-filesharing kdetoys kdeutils kdf kgamma kgeography kgeography-data kgpg khangman kig kiten klettres klettres-data kmag kmousetool kmplot kolourpaint4 kppp krdc kremotecontrol krfb kruler ksaneplugin kscd kstars kstars-data ksystemlog kteatime ktimer ktouch ktouch-data kturtle ktux kuser kwordquiz libanalitza5abi1 libanalitzagui5abi1 libanalitzaplot5abi1 libkdeedu-data libkeduvocdocument4 libkiten4abi1 marble pairs parley parley-data plasma-scriptengine-superkaramba print-manager qtdeclarative4-kqtquickcharts-1 rocs step Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them. The following packages will be REMOVED: colord* gvfs* gvfs-backends* gvfs-daemons* hplip* hplip-gui* k3b* k3b-i18n* kde-full* kde-plasma-desktop* kde-plasma-netbook* kde-standard* libpam-systemd* libvirt-daemon-system* network-manager* packagekit* packagekit-tools* plasma-nm* plasma-widget-networkmanagement* policykit-1* policykit-1-gnome* polkit-kde-1* printer-driver-postscript-hp* systemd* systemd-ui* udisks2* 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 26 to remove and 0 not upgraded. After this operation, 57.9 MB disk space will be freed. Do you want to continue? [Y/n] work. And well systemd-shim and cgmanager *are* installed. But that would be the bigger work… as it needs patching of upstream projects *or* implementing the required functionality elsewhise. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/3665370.lq8Inphs2e@merkaba
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
Am Mittwoch, 3. Dezember 2014, 08:35:00 schrieb Erwan David: > Le 02/12/2014 23:15, Martin Steigerwald a écrit : > > Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI: > >> On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700 > >> > >> Aaron Toponce wrote: > >>>> It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about > >>>> systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me > >>>> this way. > >>> > >>> # apt-get install upstart > >>> # apt-get install sysvinit-core > >>> # apt-get install openrc > >>> No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly. > >> > >> Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after > >> Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory..." > > > > Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable > > without having any systemd related package installed. > > The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to remove > systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all that logind > is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which showed it was > designed without any care for well known attacks. I explicetely wrote "any systemd related package". But yes, my example was incomplete. With all related packages it looks like this: merkaba:~> LANG=C apt-get purge libpam-systemd libsystemd-id128-0 libsystemd0 libsystemd0 systemd systemd-ui Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required: abe-data analitza-common augeas-lenses bluez-obexd briquolo-data calligrastage-data celestia-common colobot-common colobot-common-sounds colobot-common-textures command-not-found dreamchess-data ebtables epiphany-data extremetuxracer-data extremetuxracer-extras ffmpegthumbs fonts-ebgaramond-extra freedroid-data freedroidrpg-data frogatto-data gir1.2-vte-2.90 kalzium-data kde-config-cron kde-games-core-declarative kde-icons-mono kde-thumbnailer-deb kdeartwork-style kdeartwork-theme-window kdeartwork-wallpapers kdeedu-kvtml-data kdegames-card-data kdegames-mahjongg-data kdegraphics-mobipocket kdegraphics-strigi-analyzer kdegraphics-thumbnailers kdenetwork-filesharing kdepim-mobileui-data kdesdk-strigi-plugins kdesdk-thumbnailers kexi-data kgamma kgeography-data klettres-data ksaneplugin kstars-data ktouch-data ktux lbreakout2-data libakonadi-socialutils4 libakonadi-xml4 libalure1 libanalitza5abi1 libanalitzagui5abi1 libanalitzaplot5abi1 libapache-poi-java libaugeas0 libbluedevil2 libboost-chrono1.55.0 libboost-signals1.55.0 libboost-wave1.55.0 libbulletcollision2.82 libbulletdynamics2.82 libcommons-codec-java libcomposereditorng4 libdataquay0 libdebconf-kde0 libdumb1 libechonest2.1 libfishsound1 libfox-1.6-0 libfreeimage3 libfs6 libftgl2 libgcj-bc libgeoclue0 libglee0d1 libgtkmm-3.0-1 libguess1 libgwengui-fox16-0 libgwengui-gtk2-0 libgwenhywfar60-dev libid3-3.8.3c2a libkasten2controllers2 libkasten2core2 libkasten2gui2 libkasten2okteta1controllers1abi1 libkasten2okteta1core1 libkasten2okteta1gui1 libkdeedu-data libkdegames6abi1 libkdegamesprivate1abi1 libkeduvocdocument4 libkiten4abi1 libkmahjongglib4 libktoblzcheck1-dev liblinearmath2.82 liblo7 liblrdf0 liblsofui4 libmozjs185-1.0 libmxml1 libmygui.ogreplatform0debian1 libmyguiengine3debian1 libnetcf1 liboggz2 libogre-1.9.0 libokteta1core1 libokteta1gui1 libparted-fs-resize0 libphysfs1 libprojectm2 libqapt1 libqtgstreamerutils-0.10-0 libqxt-core0 libqxt-gui0 libraptor1 librubberband2 libsublime8 libswt-cairo-gtk-3-jni libswt-glx-gtk-3-jni libswt-webkit-gtk-3-jni libunshield0 libusbredirhost1 libva-glx1 libvte-2.90-9 libvte-2.90-common libxine2-bin libxine2-doc libxine2-ffmpeg libxml++2.6-2 libxmlbeans-java libxmp4 manaplus-data neverball-common neverball-data oolite-data oolite-data-sounds oolite-doc openmw-data p7zip pachi-data palapeli-data parley-data pbzip2 pinball-data pingus-data pristine-tar projectm-data python-gdbm python-ipaddr python-opengl python-pyside.qtdeclarative python-pyside.qtgui python-pyside.qthelp python-pyside.qtnetwork python-pyside.qtopengl python-pyside.qtscript python-pyside.qtsql python-pyside.qtsvg python-pyside.qttest python-pyside.qtuitools python-pyside.qtwebkit python-pyside.qtxml python-urlgrabber qtdeclarative4-kqtquickcharts-1 redshift scummvm-data supertux-data transcode-doc trophy-data ttf-femkeklaver ttf-unifont twolame unmo3 x11-session-utils x11-xfs-utils xinit Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them. The following extra packages will be installed: icedtea-6-jre-cacao icedtea-6-jre-jamvm libqt4-phono
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
Am Mittwoch, 3. Dezember 2014, 12:39:26 schrieb Laurent Bigonville: > Le Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:18:36 +0100, > > Martin Steigerwald a écrit : > > Am Mittwoch, 3. Dezember 2014, 08:35:00 schrieb Erwan David: > > > Le 02/12/2014 23:15, Martin Steigerwald a écrit : > > > > Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI: > > > >> On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700 > > > >> > > > >> Aaron Toponce wrote: > > > >>>> It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral > > > >>>> about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it > > > >>>> forced upon me this way. > > > >>> > > > >>> # apt-get install upstart > > > >>> # apt-get install sysvinit-core > > > >>> # apt-get install openrc > > > >>> No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just > > > >>> silly. > > > >> > > > >> Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release > > > >> after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory..." > > > > > > > > Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME > > > > installable without having any systemd related package installed. > > > > > > The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to > > > remove systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all > > > that logind is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which > > > showed it was designed without any care for well known attacks. > > > > I explicetely wrote "any systemd related package". > > [...] > > > > So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running > > completely without any systemd related packages gives you a really > > crippled system. > > As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0 > package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as > PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the "I don't want any systemd > package on my machine" use case into account you know. Laurent, I wrote: > > So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running > > completely without any systemd related packages gives you a really > > crippled system. For me that states clearly that I am perfectly aware of that. So I do not get why you repeat it and even complain that its already explained several times on this ML as actually I think I did not leave a trace of doubt of my awareness of that in the way I have written this. > But if you have that special concern, you'll have to start recompiling > the packages I'm afraid. Start with policykit and network-manager (and > other package defining a dependency against libpam-systemd) to make > them use ConsoleKit again, you would at least be able to remove the > systemd package completely. I just showed this. I am not sure whether I have a concern about it. But its a topic the devuan fork can extend upon whats currently available in Debian. Whether it would be necessary to fork Debian for that, I don´t know. That would depend on whether maintainers of the involved Debian packages would accept patches which can make them (maybe optionally?) use ConsoleKit again. I bet there may be a limit on what the maintainers of the official Debian packages would accept there. Of course, its also thinkable to provide those patches upstream, but I have doubt that GNOME maintainers would accept them. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2373015.jQGrihgpOm@merkaba
Re: Virtualbox 64 bit guest option is missing
Am Sonntag, 26. August 2012 schrieb Camaleón: > On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 18:47:34 +0200, Sven Hartge wrote: > > Camaleón wrote: > >> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 18:26:19 +0200, Sven Hartge wrote: > >>> Hmm. Could you post the output of > >>> > >>> grep flags /proc/cpuinfo > >>> > >>> so that we can see which capabilities the kernel thinks are > >>> available on you CPU, > >> > >> That will be of little help because CPU will expose the VT-x > >> capabilities despite the BIOS have them turned off. > > > > Oh? > > > > I must admit, I never owned a board/CPU combination, where the CPU > > had virtualization features but the board lacked support for them. > > So I assumed the capabilities list would reflect this. > > I experienced such situation: a BIOS revision that did not expose any > VT- x options while the CPU supported them. A BIOS update solved it > and a new menu for VT-x was added to the updated BIOS. > > But regardless this I think that "cpuinfo" is about CPU and not BIOS > capabilities; from here you can't really know what to expect. May dmidecode be able to step in there? It shows the DMI / SMBIOS tables. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201208282001.41507.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: [SOLVED] Is my processor 32-bit or 64-bit?
Hi Stan, Am Montag, 27. August 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: > On 8/27/2012 8:27 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> I run an SSD on my MCP61P so lack of NCQ has no impact > >> whatsoever--SSD's have no moving parts, and all seeks > >> are instantaneous. > > > > While I haven't heard of NCQ improving read speed of SSDs, it can > > have a significant positive impact on write speed for SSDs. > > Some SSD controllers, such as the later Sanforce models, do benefit > from NCQ with some server oriented workloads, little to none with > others. Controllers such as the Indilinx, Jmicron, and Samsung don't > benefit from NCQ at all, with any workload. > > For a desktop user workload, there will be no noticeable performance > difference, because such applications don't do parallel IO. Are you sure about 1) desktop applications I/O behavior and 2) NCQ? 1) I see noticeable difference for my Intel SSD 320 with different iodepth values in fio job. And as to my current understanding more than one single-threaded I/O generating desktop application can easily run at some given point of time. And then Nepomuk desktop search accesses the SSD disk with up to 10 threads at times excluding the Virtuoso database server with its 5,4 GiB database – no kidding, thats for real. Then there is Akonadi with the PostgreSQL database, KMail, Iceweasel with cache and sqlite3 database and whatnot. As sync I/O calls are synchronous on the syscall side but the kernel is still free to schedule the requests in bigger batches on the lower levels of the I/O stuck, I´d expect that desktop workloads can cause similar effects as somewhat higher I/O depths as one. Indeed running fio with numjobs=64 instead of iodepth=64 gives similar results with that Intel SSD except for higher context switch rate and CPU usage. (I can dig out those results if wanted.) 2) I am not sure about NCQ tough. I´d never disabled it on my tests. The Intel SSD 320 reports a queue depth of 32 with hdparm -I. It may not make much of a difference, I don´t know. Your seek time argument makes sense to me. But then I thought that the SSD firmware may have bigger chances to combine requests into erase block sized units when it gets more data to deal with at once. So it may make some difference for writes. But I could be completely off track with my assumption and I bet only a test will show. SSD firmwares are like big black interesting and fascinating boxes to me ;) Thanks, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201208282101.45190.mar...@lichtvoll.de
OT: SSD, NCQ and I/O depth (was: Re: [SOLVED] Is my processor 32-bit or 64-bit?)
Sorry that I post twice, but in hindsight I thought I´d give this a more descriptive subject. Please reply to this second post. Hi Stan, Am Montag, 27. August 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: > On 8/27/2012 8:27 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> I run an SSD on my MCP61P so lack of NCQ has no impact > >> whatsoever--SSD's have no moving parts, and all seeks > >> are instantaneous. > > > > While I haven't heard of NCQ improving read speed of SSDs, it can > > have a significant positive impact on write speed for SSDs. > > Some SSD controllers, such as the later Sanforce models, do benefit > from NCQ with some server oriented workloads, little to none with > others. Controllers such as the Indilinx, Jmicron, and Samsung don't > benefit from NCQ at all, with any workload. > > For a desktop user workload, there will be no noticeable performance > difference, because such applications don't do parallel IO. Are you sure about 1) desktop applications I/O behavior and 2) NCQ? 1) I see noticeable difference for my Intel SSD 320 with different iodepth values in fio job. And as to my current understanding more than one single-threaded I/O generating desktop application can easily run at some given point of time. And then Nepomuk desktop search accesses the SSD disk with up to 10 threads at times excluding the Virtuoso database server with its 5,4 GiB database – no kidding, thats for real. Then there is Akonadi with the PostgreSQL database, KMail, Iceweasel with cache and sqlite3 database and whatnot. As sync I/O calls are synchronous on the syscall side but the kernel is still free to schedule the requests in bigger batches on the lower levels of the I/O stuck, I´d expect that desktop workloads can cause similar effects as somewhat higher I/O depths as one. Indeed running fio with numjobs=64 instead of iodepth=64 gives similar results with that Intel SSD except for higher context switch rate and CPU usage. (I can dig out those results if wanted.) 2) I am not sure about NCQ tough. I´d never disabled it on my tests. The Intel SSD 320 reports a queue depth of 32 with hdparm -I. It may not make much of a difference, I don´t know. Your seek time argument makes sense to me. But then I thought that the SSD firmware may have bigger chances to combine requests into erase block sized units when it gets more data to deal with at once. So it may make some difference for writes. But I could be completely off track with my assumption and I bet only a test will show. SSD firmwares are like big black interesting and fascinating boxes to me ;) Thanks, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201208282103.17852.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: [SOLVED] Is my processor 32-bit or 64-bit?
Am Mittwoch, 29. August 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: > On 8/28/2012 2:01 PM, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Hi Stan, > > > > Am Montag, 27. August 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: > >> For a desktop user workload, there will be no noticeable performance > >> difference, because such applications don't do parallel IO. > > > > Are you sure about 1) desktop applications I/O behavior and 2) NCQ? > > > > 1) I see noticeable difference for my Intel SSD 320 with different > > iodepth values in fio job. > > Shall we now split hairs, and have a 500 post discussion WRT the > definition of "desktop user workload"? > > If you consider fio, iozone, bonnie++ etc to be part of a typical > "desktop user workload" then you're simply out of touch with the real > world Martin. ;) > > Do you have a father/mother brother/sister wife/children? Do any of > them run fio on a regular basis? These people represent the typical > "desktop user workload". Sysadmins, devs, power users, do not. While a typical desktop workload may not induce anything near an IO depth of 64, I still think several desktop applications accessing the disk at once can have the Linux kernel block layer use an iodepth > 1 on the disk. So maybe testing with I/O depth upto 10 or so make sense even for desktop workloads. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201208291607.06354.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Virtualbox 64 bit guest option is missing
Am Mittwoch, 29. August 2012 schrieb Camaleón: > On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 20:01:41 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Am Sonntag, 26. August 2012 schrieb Camaleón: > >> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 18:47:34 +0200, Sven Hartge wrote: > >> > Camaleón wrote: > >> >> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 18:26:19 +0200, Sven Hartge wrote: > >> >>> Hmm. Could you post the output of > >> >>> > >> >>> grep flags /proc/cpuinfo > >> >>> > >> >>> so that we can see which capabilities the kernel thinks are > >> >>> available on you CPU, > >> >> > >> >> That will be of little help because CPU will expose the VT-x > >> >> capabilities despite the BIOS have them turned off. > >> > > >> > Oh? > >> > > >> > I must admit, I never owned a board/CPU combination, where the CPU > >> > had virtualization features but the board lacked support for them. > >> > So I assumed the capabilities list would reflect this. > >> > >> I experienced such situation: a BIOS revision that did not expose > >> any VT- x options while the CPU supported them. A BIOS update > >> solved it and a new menu for VT-x was added to the updated BIOS. > >> > >> But regardless this I think that "cpuinfo" is about CPU and not BIOS > >> capabilities; from here you can't really know what to expect. > > > > May dmidecode be able to step in there? > > > > It shows the DMI / SMBIOS tables. > > I never have had a positive experience with dmidecode because it > provides untrustworthy output :-/ In my experience it depends heavily on the BIOS. But for this ThinkPad T520 the output appears to be pretty accurate for me. On the FTS Esprimo workstation at work the output appears to be quite lacking of detail. Whether everything is correct? Well… But since it somehow seems to relate to the BIOS I thought it might help here. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201208291617.26143.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: where to report bug: Wheezy installer failed on a RTL8169 network card
Am Mittwoch, 29. August 2012 schrieb Yuwen Dai: > Dear all, > > I downloaded the latest Wheezy AMD64 version DVD iso image, trying to > install it on a HP notebook with a RTL8169 NIC. When the installer > detects network, it hangs. I could switch to other ttys and open a > busybox shell, but it's useless, the installation could not resume > any more. I tried a Squeeze DVD on the same notebook, the DHCP > process appeared some difficult, I tried several times, but at last, > it got IP address. Where can I report this bug? One thing that you may try unless the bug report mentioned by you does not yet have this information: Go to tty4 (Alt-F4) and look for suspicious log messages. You can add to the bug report by sending an mail to bu...@bugs.debian.org Thanks, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201208291911.54549.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: How upstart-job is performing in debian system ?
Am Mittwoch, 29. August 2012 schrieb Camaleón:
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 12:27:20 +0530, bakshi12 wrote:
> > I have gone through some online docs on ubuntu derived upstar-job
> > mechanism and its simplicity has drawn my attention. Same time the
> > apparent incompatibility with sysv-init is also there. Has anyone is
> > using that in running debian system. How does it work ? Does it need
> > to rewrite all /etc/init.d/${scripts} ?
>
> IIRC, years ago it was suggested that Debian was going to jump to
> upstart¹ as the default booting mechanism but then systemd started to
> gain more popularity as a replacement for system v.
>
> With my admin's hat on, I prefer the old and well-know sysvinit because
> I don't need anything special for the booting process but I understand
> that people with specific requirements (or those called "early
> adopters") are awaiting for a change.
>
> That said, I'm completetely unaware about the current status for
> upstart/ systemd in Debian, but according to the above mailing
> list/announce post and the wiki², both systems should be already
> available and operative.
>
> ¹http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2009/09/msg3.html
> ²http://wiki.debian.org/systemd
Systemd definately works on this ThinkPad T520, a ThinkPad T23, a T42
and a FTS Esprimo workstation with Debian Sid.
I especially love that:
martin@merkaba:~> systemd-analyze
Startup finished in 3857ms (kernel) + 2531ms (userspace) = 6389ms
Systemd can also tell for each service how long it takes for startup.
And that:
martin@merkaba:~> systemctl status ssh.service
ssh.service - LSB: OpenBSD Secure Shell server
Loaded: loaded (/etc/init.d/ssh)
Active: active (running) since Tue, 28 Aug 2012 22:18:02 +0200; 21h
ago
Process: 1313 ExecStart=/etc/init.d/ssh start (code=exited,
status=0/SUCCESS)
CGroup: name=systemd:/system/ssh.service
└ 1394 /usr/sbin/sshd
Aug 29 10:33:49 merkaba sshd[31682]: Accepted publickey for ms from […] port
39674 ssh2
Aug 29 14:33:03 merkaba sshd[22933]: Accepted publickey for ms from […] port
57103 ssh2
Aug 29 14:33:03 merkaba sshd[22933]: pam_unix(sshd:session): session opened for
user ms by (uid=0)
Aug 29 15:37:11 merkaba sshd[1322]: Accepted publickey for ms from […] port
57105 ssh2
Aug 29 15:38:09 merkaba sshd[1370]: Accepted publickey for ms from […] port
57106 ssh2
Aug 29 15:38:09 merkaba sshd[1370]: pam_unix(sshd:session): session opened for
user ms by (uid=0)
Still most services are started by init scripts, such as SSH in above example.
That CGroup tracking works also with child processes, so I can know at
once the processes that long to a certain service.
I am quite vary about Pulseaudio, but I do like systemd ;)
Thanks,
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
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Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201208291929.27527.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Query about failure of Debian 6 64 bit to swap properly
Am Mittwoch, 29. August 2012 schrieb Bret Busby: > >> I do hope that Debian 7 implements memory paging, or swapping. > > > > I'm not completely sure what you mean by this :-? > > It seems to have stopped working properly, in about Debian 5, and I > hope that Debian 7 gets it working again. > > In Debian 5, I could sometimes kickstart memory swapping, by running > something like the GIMP, and opening images, then closing the > application, at which stage, memory swapping would sometimes start (on > a different computer - Debian 5 would not run on this computer), but > I have not yet managed to get memory swapping working properly in the > 64 bit Debian 6. I do not remember whether the memory swapping works > on the 32 bit installation of Debian 6, on my NX5000 laptop. Bret, whatever your issues are, I am very sure that it isn´t that Debian is anable to swap or page memory. If you have 8 GiB of RAM and it swaps another 8 GiB it will be slow. And thats just physics. Harddisks are slow. Much memory paged to to harddisk based swap is slow. Its as easy as that. So the main question is: What on earth uses up 16 GiB or memory on your machine? Solve this and you are likely done with the issue. I have 8 GiB of RAM and the machine rarely swaps when I have two KDE sessions open with a ton of applications and then I have never seen more than 2-3 GiB of swap space used. Granted thats with Debian Sid. Also a ThinkPad T42 with 2 GiB doesn´t swap very much, neither a T23. On the T23 since Sarge in each and every Debian release and lots of interim package versions since then. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209022123.11104.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Query about failure of Debian 6 64 bit to swap properly
Am Mittwoch, 29. August 2012 schrieb Bob Proulx: > Then press F6 to change the sort function. Use the up and down cursor > keys to select VIRT for sorting by size of virtual memory usage. What > programs are the top virtual memory consumers on your system? (On > mine it is usually firefox.) Based upon what those memory hogs are on > your system we can advise what action might be taken. No! Virtual memory size does not say a single thing about real physical memory usage. An application can happily allocate 1 GiB or more of virtual memory without every having the Linux kernel allocating physical memory at all except for the management of the memory allocation at all. Virtual memory is just address space. Unless the application writes to it, the kernel does nothing, repeat, nothing in physical memory. So its resident set size. And even that is not accurate, cause it usually collects libary memory usage as well. So when you have 100 processes using libc6 the library is still in memory just once. So an approach is account to the process the resident set size of the library divided by the amount of processes that use it. In newer KDE versions the process monitor has a detailed memory statistics page that does just that. I never have seen that in a shell command up to know. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209022129.07797.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Query about failure of Debian 6 64 bit to swap properly
Am Mittwoch, 29. August 2012 schrieb Bret Busby: > > Then press F6 to change the sort function. Use the up and down > > cursor keys to select VIRT for sorting by size of virtual memory > > usage. What programs are the top virtual memory consumers on your > > system? (On mine it is usually firefox.) Based upon what those > > memory hogs are on your system we can advise what action might be > > taken. > > opera web browser. > > Each window of it shows as using 14GB of virtual memory. Again: That does say nothing except for that Opera tends to be quite greedy regarding allocating virtual address space. But then on a 64 Bit system there is plenty of it. On this ThinkPad T520 with Sandybridge i5 Dualcore: martin@merkaba:~> grep VmallocTotal /proc/meminfo VmallocTotal: 34359738367 kB If I am not completely mistaken thats 32768 GiB. Look for RSS or resident set size as virtual address space is just the kernels way to play poker with applications. Its the physically used memory that counts. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209022135.34544.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Query about failure of Debian 6 64 bit to swap properly
Am Mittwoch, 29. August 2012 schrieb Bret Busby: > Hello. Hello Bret, > In the ongoing saga of the inability of the 64 bit version of Debian 6 > to swap properly, so that an i3 CPU with 8GB of RAM and a 40GB swap > partition, runs about as fast as an 8086 trying to run MS Windows 3, a > possible cause has occurred to me. […] > So, my query is this; is the inability of 64 bit Debian 6, to swap > properly, instead using increasing amounts of RAM until it runs out of > RAM, then crashing, while having 40GB of unused swap partition > allocated and "swappiness" set to 70, due to the inability of the file > manager to cope with filesize greater than 1GB? 1) Debian is not unable to swap. Period. Neither Lenny, nor Squeeze, nor Wheezy, nor Sid. 2) So your issue must be something else. As already pointed out later in thread it seems to be insane amount of memory usage. 3) 40 GB of swap with 8 GB of RAM is an quite insane setup. A harddisk takes in about 40-100 MiB per second on sequential access. Swap accesses can be quite random. So its at least 10 seconds per GiB of swap or 80 seconds per 8 GiB of swap. Usually *lots* more. And writing can be even slower. The machine is likely to start to crawl to a halt by anything near to 16 GiB of swap usage, likely even before depending on storage speed. Thats physics. 4) Any filemanager I have yet seen in Debian is able to copy with files bigger than 1 GiB. FAT32 cannot take files larger than 4 GiB with default cluster sizes. Some applications may still have problems with really huge files. (See Large File Support in linux kernel and large / huge file support in Ext4.) 5) You say you are inable to handle files bigger than 1 GiB. What *exactly* happens? What are the error message. Please stay just by the facts. Preliminary conclusions can be completely of track. In a situation of starting memory pressure I ask you to: - free -m - or better cat /proc/meminfo - vmstat 1 and at least 30-40 lines of it Additionally please install and then do: - Start atop - Press m - Look which processes have the highest RGROW and SWAPSZ values It seems to my atop sorts by resident set usage which seems saner to me than sorting by virtual memory usage. Also look for anything that atop marks by turquoise or especial red color. In in doubt try to crap some text snapshots of it. Should be quite easy since by default it has a 10 second delay between updates. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209022152.42384.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: systemd
Am Freitag, 7. September 2012 schrieb Henrique de Moraes Holschuh: > On Fri, 07 Sep 2012, Jon Dowland wrote: > > If you are determined to avoid Lennart's code, you're going to have > > to > > > stop running the Linux kernel: > ... > > Kernel patches from Lennart were properly reviewed, and accepted only > after the maintainers and subsystem maintainers approved them as an > acceptable solution for the general problem they were supposed to be > addressing. > > Lennart would not be able to easily push random crap to the kernel > upstream even if he tried to. It is a very different situation from > userland. Just a short look at http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/ and http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/log/ shows that Lennart is not the only one committing stuff to systemd. Kay Sievers AFAIK does udev stuff. Tollef Fog Heen contributes to the systemd debian package. And there are quite some others. Granted, it seems that Lennart does most of the commits, so thats still a different situation than with the Linux kernel, but still it does not seem to be a one man show. Especially when going a bit back August this year in the log. That written just from a quick glimpse. There are visualizition and statistic tools available to further verify or falsify my current thesis that systemd has quite some contributors. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209081738.45598.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Something about netiquette Re: systemd
Am Montag, 6. August 2012 schrieb Ralf Mardorf: > On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 13:15 -0400, Tom H wrote: > > Somehow, I find your claim that neither OpenSUSE nor Ubuntu will > > start being installed "on most machines" difficult to believe... > > > > My personal experience is that Ubuntu boots and performs well, > > including PA, on the three laptops (mine and my parents') on which > > I've installed it. > > Personally I never had an issue with installing Suse and Ubuntu, but I > had an issue with one version of Ubuntu Studio, so I installed Ubuntu > and then the meta packages for the studio version. BUT I also > experienced issues with Debian, Ubuntu and several Non-German distros, > when setting up xorg.conf perfectly, since there are no calculators in > the web available, that know the German vendor names and types for > identically constructed monitors, that have other names in other > countries. Suse ships with IIRC it's called SaX and this app did know > my monitors, so I had to install Suse to get my 64 Studio (Debian and > Ubuntu based versions) and my Debians and Ubuntus able to use my > monitors in the way I needed them. I don´t know when you made these experiences, but in the last years I have seen no hardware I installed Debian on where it didn´t just boot up to a graphical login – if installed – with correct resolution straight after installing. Sure, for the ThinkPad T520 I resorted to install Debian Wheezy/Sid back then, but its hardware has been brand-new as well. So or so I do not like to use the stuff that SaX tended to put into xorg.conf even after X.org has learned to configure itself most of the times. The times of inserting mode lines, in the case of SaX usually lots of modelines into xorg.conf by default are *long* over. But still use gtf or cvt if you still insist that you know it better. > I belief my experiences more than a statistic, however: > > "Operating Systems > 1 Windows 7 44.12% > 2 Windows XP 27.06% > 3 Apple OS X 8.66% > 4 iOS 7.09% > 5 Windows Vista 6.95% > 6 Android 2.49% > 7 Linux 1.75% What on earth has this do to with Debian Linux? Frankly, I don´t care about the market share of Linux. Fine if it raises. But I can use it right now, it works, it works nicely. So what? Any real Debian problems anyone? (Just for a change from this off topic babbling whether Linux is cool or not…) Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209081746.58959.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Recover broken SDHC card
Am Freitag, 7. September 2012 schrieb Klaus Pieper: > Hello debian gurus, > is it possible to recover anything from this flash card? > Klaus > > [ 1008.061896] scsi 6:0:0:0: Direct-Access SanDisk SDDR-113 > 9412 PQ: 0 ANSI: 0 > [ 1008.063822] sd 6:0:0:0: Attached scsi generic sg2 type 0 > [ 1008.196914] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] 7744512 512-byte logical blocks: (3.96 > GB/3.69 GiB) > [ 1008.198130] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] Write Protect is off > [ 1008.198138] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode Sense: 03 00 00 00 > [ 1008.198143] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] Assuming drive cache: write through > [ 1008.201240] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] Assuming drive cache: write through > [ 1008.201249] sdb: > [ 1012.889494] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready > [ 1012.889502] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] Result: hostbyte=DID_OK > driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE > [ 1012.889510] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] Sense Key : Not Ready [current] > [ 1012.889519] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] Add. Sense: Medium not present > [ 1012.889530] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] CDB: Read(10): 28 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 > 08 00 > [ 1012.889549] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 0 > > > # sfdisk -l /dev/sdb > /dev/sdb: No medium found > > sfdisk: cannot open /dev/sdb for reading As told on debian-user-german: I think this card is physically damaged. Likely the controller is defective. But could be contacts, flash chips or something else as well. But to make sure I still suggest trying some different card readers with it. photorec is only of use if you can access the partition. Thats unlikely in above case as sector 0 can not be read. Had something like this with a TakeMS 4GB card. I had it recovered by a data rescue company for 170 euro. Well I wanted that six months of photos back. Backup SD cards. Regularily! Even when you do not have time to sort photos into folders properly. Just backup by rsync or so anyway and sort photos later. Thats what I learned from this. More about cheap flash thats often optimized for FAT 32 on Linux: Optimizing Linux with cheap flash drives February 18, 2011 This article was contributed by Arnd Bergmann https://lwn.net/Articles/428584/ https://wiki.linaro.org/WorkingGroups/Kernel/Projects/FlashDeviceMapper https://wiki.linaro.org/WorkingGroups/Kernel/Projects/FlashCardSurvey I hope that there will be a free filesystem for exchangable media available on every OS sometime. There are at least two initiatives for Linux. Lanyard filesystem and a flash company working on a flash fs prototype mentioned by Arnd in the lanyard FS thread on linux kernel mailing list. Another thing would be to bring such a filesystem to Windows and Linux. I think a patent-free filesystem is called for. So Exfat doesn´t seem to be a real alternative. Or maybe Theodore T´so has it right that at some time an existing Linux filesystem will be used due to the market share of Linux in mobile devices. Still then Ext4 / BTRFS may need some adaptions to how cheap flash works. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209081807.00131.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Recover broken SDHC card
Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Martin Steigerwald: > More about cheap flash thats often optimized for FAT 32 on Linux: As for cheap it that sentence. The 32 GB Sandisk Extreme was about 28 Euro. It can theoretically do 45 MB/s. Thats almost 1 Euro per GB. Achievable with an Intel SSD 520 for example. It should be able to do about 10 times of above bandwidth. (Depending on workload of course, but I doubt that the SD card will reach anything near 45 MB/s on random I/O anyway.) So it seems to me that for SD card we either pay for the small form factor or that SD card is actually quite experience. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209081812.35750.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Getting 3D graphics support out of my ATI Rage XL video chip?
Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Stephen Powell: > Hello, list. I've recently installed Debian Wheezy on a "new" (to me) > computer with an ATI Rage XL video chip. Here is an excerpt from > the output of "lspci -nn -vv". (Line wraps have been inserted to > keep well within the customary 80-column limit.) Is that chip on a graphics card? Then from a quick glimpse of that thread it might be easier to just replace it with something a bit more modern. I think it will also be beneficial for 3D performance. Above card may even not be quick enough for desktop effects via OpenGL compositing. Even that mobile Radeon in my ThinkPad T42 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: ATI Technologies Inc RV350 [Mobility Radeon 9600 M10] [1002:4e50] which could easily be more modern than this ATI Rage XL in your computer has problems coping with KDE desktop effects with the open source Radeon driver (with KMS). Heck, yes, your card seems to be even older: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_Rage This seems to be the first range of 3D graphics cards from ATI ever. From there: "Rage XL was a low-cost RAGE Pro-based solution. As a low-power solution with capable 2D-acceleration, the chip was used on many low-end graphics cards. It was also seen on Intel motherboards, as recently as 2004, and was still used in 2006 for server motherboards. The Rage XL has been succeeded by the ATI ES1000 for server use. The chip was basically a die-shrunk Rage Pro, optimized to be very inexpensive for solutions where only basic graphics output was necessary." So even when that chip was still put on boards in this century it was for server motherboard where you usually do not care about 3D performance. And it was based on a chip from the last century, the Rage Pro. I strongly suggest you spare yourself any struggle to get this card to work with 3D on Linux. The performance is likely to be abysmal compared even to cards that are five years old. Heck any desktop Radeon card from this century should be (way) faster. So do yourself a favor and try to get a used one that matches the bus connection of your computer. Or stick with 2D. Unless you really want to know whether it works ;) Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209081918.43423.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: new installation preserving /home partition
Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Mauricio Calvao: > Hi > > I currrently have a desktop running old Debian 5 (lenny). I myself > installed some programs outside apt management, both > because there were no deb packages for them and because I need some > more recent versions. Thus, I have finally decided > to move on to Debian 6 (squeeze) and then possibly even to Debian sid, > which I have already used for some time as the aptosid > distribution. I would like however to preserve my /home partition. Is > that **advisable** or should I delete this partition as well? You can preserve your /home partition. Make a backup nonetheless! In case you select the wrong partition for mkfs or something like that. If you installed your own stuff in /usr/share/local, /opt and/or your home directory, so outside of the domain of apt then you could also upgrade your distribution via apt. You may find the software you installed manually in the repository for the new Debian version. Read Squeeze releasenotes in any case. From the impression I got from your questions I advice to you to not use Sid yet. Wait till you got a bit more experience with apt and co and be prepared to fix the occasional bug now and then. I recommend learning to use bugs.debian.org and to install apt-listbugs, possibly apt-listchanges if using Sid. Wheezy might be in order, cause its already frozen. But on upgrading you need to upgrade each version, so Lenny => Squeeze => Wheezy. So for Wheezy a new install will spare you two upgrades instead of one. But you need to configure everything to your taste again. That said, on new installs – that I do rarely – I found quite some stuff that I configured manually working out of the box. I removed more and more manual configurations over the time. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209081927.39570.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Looking for an emacs replacement
Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb T o n g: > Hi, > > > Subject: My app-defaults won't work for emacs any more > > Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 01:25:20 + (UTC) > > > > I haven't updated my emacs for quite a while and today when I update > > it, I notice that the new emacs is not following my app-defaults > > settings, which has been working for quite a long time. > > The time has come. I had always frowned upon how much space > emacs is hogging my system, and how little I'm actually using it, but > better the devil you know than the devil you don't, I've been put up > with it until now, when all my nice settings about it are totally > lost. > > Time to look for an all purpose editor to replace emacs. Last time I > checked, all editors that based on the engine that notepadd++ is based > on are not there yet. > > The only thing that emacs has while others don't is its folding more, > which let you define your own folding tag, and can fold a section on > and off within a split of second. > > So, any greener yard out there that support folding (hide/show a > region)? Should this be an editor that works on text console or terminal emulators or can it be a GUI one? GUI based I like Kate. But for text console, I have not seen much > PS. I'm long time emacs user so please don't start with how good vim or > its alikes are. Please. that could replace emacs or vim in terms of features. nano and mcedit are quite simplicistic. Enough for some, granted, but not for programming. And even then a full featured editor that is intuitively to use only with text UI. I did not yet found it. Sure vim can have split views and what not, but I have to learn a lot of key bindings and stuff. For Kate I just use the menu for less often used functions. But then that likely is possible with emacs I bet. I never tried emacs seriosly. I may try it some time, but I´d like it when something like vimtutor would be available for it. It would help me to get a feeling of whether I like emacs or not more easily I bet. That said I use text UI based editor mostly for configuration files anyway. I do programming in Kate. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209081952.19569.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Installation
Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Camaleón: > On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:37:55 -0700, Weaver wrote: > > I know how hard it can be to see the forest when you are too close to > > the trees, so I thought I would re-post something I put up in another > > forum where Miguel de Icaza's recent communication was being > > discussed and in answer to Vaughan-Nicholl's recent article of > > semi-acceptance. ~ > > The most 'untechie' person on the planet can use any Linux > > distribution once it is installed. > > (...) > > > The reason they don't is the install procedure. > > (...) > > I think it's not that easy. > > First, because "untechie" users neither have to install Windows nor > MacOS as both usually come along with the computer in a pre-installed > form thus they only have to provide some basic data. > > And secondly (and most important, IMO) once the Linux system has been > installed, configured and ready to use there's still the problem with > applications. You only have to tell "untechies" that they cannot > install Photoshop CS[whatever] and their response (98% of the time) > will be something like "what kind of crap is this?" ;-) > > Linux is more like an intense mental activity that requires from your > attention (and high doses of patience and interest) and not all the > people is ready/looking for that. Well I do see more and more that there are really cool applications for Linux. But sure, someone who doesn´t want to try anything with a different name and GUI than the stuff he is used too, but not be easy to convince. Just as I don´t give a sh* about Adobe software except for flash where its still needed to play web videos. I quite much agree to the installation stuff. I put Linux on the laptop I bought with my father for my father. He used Firefox and Thunderbird and some crappy photo management software. I put KDE on it plus Iceweasel, Icedove and Digikam as applications. And each a button for internet on and off (this Debian Lenny installation is using HFC USB based ISDN adapter for accessing the net, thats why I am reluctant to upgrade to Squeeze or Wheezy, cause I have the gut feeling that ISDN on Squeeze or Wheezy is quite some fiddling again.) Well that just works. So I also agree that it somewhat depends on the applications, on games for some as well as on the willingness to try a different application for the same tasks. As for Adobe Photoshop GIMP and possibly even more so Krita are very interesting alternatives IMHO. But then what do I know about Photoshop… -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209081959.50980.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Freitag, 7. September 2012 schrieb Veljko: > > This is Debian. Since 1997 or so, you have had the ability to > > upgrade from major version n to version n+1 without > > reinstalling. You won't need to reinstall unless you change > > architectures (i.e. from x86_32 to x86_64). > But, isn't complete reintall safest way? Dist-upgrade can go wrong > sometime. The Debian Wheezy on my ThinkPad T42 as a Debian Sarge or something like this on my ThinkPad T23. Same with my workstation at work, heck I even recovered from a bit error restore from a hardware raid controller by reinstalling any package that debsums complained about. That should give you an idea of the upgradeability of Debian. I only every installed a new system on 32 => 64 bit switch. And in the not to distant future even that might not be needed anymore. (Yes, I know of the inofficial hacks that may even work without multiarch support, i.e. the website with the big fat blinking warning not to do this;) -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209082006.08167.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Freitag, 7. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: > On 9/7/2012 12:42 PM, Dan Ritter wrote: […] > > Now, the next thing: I know it's tempting to make a single > > filesystem over all these disks. Don't. The fsck times will be > > horrendous. Make filesystems which are the size you need, plus a > > little extra. It's rare to actually need a single gigantic fs. > > Whjat? Are you talking crash recovery boot time "fsck"? With any > modern journaled FS log recovery is instantaneous. If you're talking > about an actual structure check, XFS is pretty quick regardless of > inode count as the check is done in parallel. I can't speak to EXTx > as I don't use them. For a multi terabyte backup server, XFS is the > only way to go anyway. Using XFS also allows infinite growth without > requiring array reshapes nor LVM, while maintaining striped write > alignment and thus maintaining performance. > > There are hundreds of 30TB+ and dozens of 100TB+ XFS filesystems in > production today, and I know of one over 300TB and one over 500TB, > attached to NASA's two archival storage servers. > > When using correctly architected reliable hardware there's no reason > one can't use a single 500TB XFS filesystem. I assume that such correctly architected hardware contains a lot of RAM in order to be able to xfs_repair the filesystem in case of any filesystem corruption. I know RAM usage of xfs_repair has been lowered, but still such a 500 TiB XFS filesystem can contain a lot of inodes. But for upto 10 TiB XFS filesystem I wouldn´t care too much about those issues. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209082010.26694.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Freitag, 7. September 2012 schrieb Bob Proulx: > Unfortunately I have some recent FUD concerning xfs. I have had some > recent small idle xfs filesystems trigger kernel watchdog timer > recoveries recently. Emphasis on idle. Active filesystems are always > fine. I used /tmp as a large xfs filesystem but swapped it to be ext4 > due to these lockups. Squeeze. Everything current. But when idle it > would periodically lock up and the only messages in the syslog and on > the system console were concerning xfs threads timed out. When the > kernel froze it always had these messages displayed[1]. It was simply > using /tmp as a hundred gig or so xfs filesystem. Doing nothing but > changing /tmp from xfs to ext4 resolved the problem and it hasn't seen > a kernel lockup since. I saw that problem on three different machines > but effectively all mine and very similar software configurations. > And by kernel lockup I mean unresponsive and it took a power cycle to > free it. > > I hesitated to say anything because of lacking real data but it means > I can't completely recommend xfs today even though I have given it > strong recommendations in the past. I am thinking that recent kernels > are not completely clean specifically for idle xfs filesystems. > Meanwhile active ones seem to be just fine. Would love to have this > resolved one way or the other so I could go back to recommending xfs > again without reservations. Squeeze and everything current? No way. At least when using 2.6.32 default squeeze kernel. Its really old. Did you try with the latest 3.2 squeeze-backports kernel? -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209082013.01653.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Veljko: > On Fri, Sep 07, 2012 at 01:26:13PM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: > > On 9/7/2012 11:29 AM, Veljko wrote: > > > > > > > I'm in the process of making new backup server, so I'm thinking of > > > best way of doing it. I have 4 3TB disks and I'm thinking of > > > puting them in software RAID10. > > > > > > > > ["what if" stream of consciousness rambling snipped for brevity] > > > > > > > > > What do you think of this setup? Good sides? Bad sides of this > > > approach? > > > > > > > > Applying the brakes... > > > > > > > > As with many tech geeks with too much enthusiasm for various tools > > and not enough common sense and seasoning, you've made the mistake > > of > > > > approaching this backwards. Always start here: > > > > > > 1. What are the requirements of the workload? > > 2. What is my budget and implementation date? > > 3. How can I accomplish #1 given #2 with the > > 4. Least complexity and > > 5. Highest reliability and > > 6. Easiest recovery if the system fails? > > > > > > > > You've described a dozen or so overly complex technical means to some > > end that tend to violate #4 through #6. > > > > > > > > Slow down, catch your breath, and simply describe #1 and #2. We'll > > go from there. > > > > > > > > -- > > Stan > > Well, it did sound a little to complex and that is why I posted to this > list, hoping to hear some other opinions. > > 1. This machine will be used for > a) backup (backup server for several dedicated (mainly) web servers). > It will contain incremental backups, so only first running will take > a lot of time, rsnapshot will latter download only changed/added files > and will run from cron every day. Files that will be added later are > around 1-10 MB in size. I expect ~20 GB daily, but that number can > grow. Some files fill be deleted, other will be added. > Dedicated servers that will be backed up are ~500GB in size. > b) monitoring (Icinga or Zabbix) of dedicated servers. > c) file sharing for employees (mainly small text files). I don't > expect this to be resource hog. > d) Since there is enough space (for now), and machine have four cores > and 4GB RAM (that can be easily increased), I figured I can use it > for test virtual machines. I usually work with 300MB virtual machines > and no intensive load. Just testing some software. > > 2. There is no fixed implementation date, but I'm expected to start > working on it. Sooner the better, but no dead lines. >Equipment I have to work with is desktop class machine: Athlon X4, >4GB RAM and 4 3TB Seagate ST3000DM001 7200rpm. Server will be in my >office and will perform backup over internet. I do have APC UPS to >power off machine in case of power loss (apcupsd will take care of >that). > > In next few months it is expected that size of files on dedicated > servers will grow and it case that really happen I'd like to be able to > expand this system. Hardware RAID controllers are expensive and > managers always want to go with least expenses possible, so I'm stuck > with software RAID only. Are you serious about that? You are planning to mix backup, productions workloads and testing on a single *desktop class* machine? If you had a redundant and failsafe virtualization cluster with 2-3 hosts and redundant and failsafe storage cluster, then maybe – except for the backup. But for a single desktop class machine I´d advice against putting such different workloads on it. Especially in a enterprise scenario. While you may get away with running test and production VMs on a virtualization host, I would at least physically (!) separate the backup so that breaking the machine by testing stuff would not make the backup inaccessible. And no: RAID is not a backup! So please forget about mixing a backup with production/testing workloads. Now. I personally do not see a strong reason against SoftRAID although I battery backed up hardware RAID controller can be quite nice for performance as you can disable cache flushing / barriers. But then that should be possible with a battery backed up non RAID controller, if there is any, as well. Thanks Stan for asking the basic questions. The answers made obvious to me that in the current form this can´t be a sane setup. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209082023.36940.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Veljko: > On Sat, Sep 08, 2012 at 08:23:36PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Are you serious about that? > > > > You are planning to mix backup, productions workloads and testing on > > a single *desktop class* machine? > > > > If you had a redundant and failsafe virtualization cluster with 2-3 > > hosts and redundant and failsafe storage cluster, then maybe – > > except for the backup. But for a single desktop class machine I´d > > advice against putting such different workloads on it. Especially in > > a enterprise scenario. > > > > While you may get away with running test and production VMs on a > > virtualization host, I would at least physically (!) separate the > > backup so that breaking the machine by testing stuff would not make > > the backup inaccessible. And no: RAID is not a backup! So please > > forget about mixing a backup with production/testing workloads. Now. > > > > I personally do not see a strong reason against SoftRAID although I > > battery backed up hardware RAID controller can be quite nice for > > performance as you can disable cache flushing / barriers. But then > > that should be possible with a battery backed up non RAID > > controller, if there is any, as well. > > > > Thanks Stan for asking the basic questions. The answers made obvious > > to me that in the current form this can´t be a sane setup. > > Yes, I know how that sounds. But testing in my case is installing > slim Debian, apache on top of it and running some light web application > for a few hours. Nothing intensive. Just to have fresh machine with > nothing on it. But if running it sounds too bad I could just run it > somewhere else. Thanks for your advice, Martin! > > On the other hand, monitoring has to be here, no place else to put it. Consider the consequenzes: If the server fails, you possibly wouldn´t know why cause the monitoring information wouldn´t be available anymore. So at least least Nagios / Icingo send out mails, in case these are not stored on the server as well, or let it relay the information to another Nagios / Icinga instance. What data do you backup? From where does it come? I still think backup should be separate from other stuff. By design. Well for more fact based advice we´d require a lot more information on your current setup and what you want to achieve. I recommend to have a serious talk about acceptable downtimes and risks for the backup with the customer if you serve one or your boss if you work for one. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209082128.09526.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Veljko: > On Fri, Sep 07, 2012 at 01:26:13PM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: > > On 9/7/2012 11:29 AM, Veljko wrote: > > > I'm in the process of making new backup server, so I'm thinking of > > > best way of doing it. I have 4 3TB disks and I'm thinking of > > > puting them in software RAID10. > > > > ["what if" stream of consciousness rambling snipped for brevity] > > > > > What do you think of this setup? Good sides? Bad sides of this > > > approach? > > > > Applying the brakes... > > > > As with many tech geeks with too much enthusiasm for various tools > > and not enough common sense and seasoning, you've made the mistake > > of approaching this backwards. Always start here: > > > > 1. What are the requirements of the workload? > > 2. What is my budget and implementation date? > > 3. How can I accomplish #1 given #2 with the > > 4. Least complexity and > > 5. Highest reliability and > > 6. Easiest recovery if the system fails? > > > > You've described a dozen or so overly complex technical means to some > > end that tend to violate #4 through #6. > > > > Slow down, catch your breath, and simply describe #1 and #2. We'll > > go from there. > > Well, it did sound a little to complex and that is why I posted to this > list, hoping to hear some other opinions. > > 1. This machine will be used for > a) backup (backup server for several dedicated (mainly) web servers). > It will contain incremental backups, so only first running will take > a lot of time, rsnapshot will latter download only changed/added files > and will run from cron every day. Files that will be added later are > around 1-10 MB in size. I expect ~20 GB daily, but that number can > grow. Some files fill be deleted, other will be added. For rsnapshot in my experience you need monitoring cause if it fails it just complains to its log file and even just puts the rsync error code without the actual error message there last I checked. Let monitoring check whether daily.0 is not older than 24 hours. Did you consider putting those webservers into some bigger virtualization host and then let them use NFS exports for central storage provided by some server(s) that are freed by this? You may even free up a dedicated machine for monitoring and another one for the backup ;). But well any advice depends highly on the workload, so this is just guess work. > Dedicated servers that will be backed up are ~500GB in size. How many are they? > b) monitoring (Icinga or Zabbix) of dedicated servers. Then who monitors the backup? It ideally should be a different server than this multi-purpose-do-everything-and-feed-the-dog machine your are talking about. > c) file sharing for employees (mainly small text files). I don't > expect this to be resource hog. Another completely different workload. Where do you intend the backup for these files? I obviously wouldn´t put it on the same machine as the fileserver. See how mixing lots of stuff into one machine makes things complicated? You may spare some hardware costs. But IMHO thats easily offset by higher maintenance costs as well at higher risk of service outage and the costs it causes. > d) Since there is enough space (for now), and machine have four cores > and 4GB RAM (that can be easily increased), I figured I can use it > for test virtual machines. I usually work with 300MB virtual machines > and no intensive load. Just testing some software. 4 GiB RAM of RAM for a virtualization host that also does backup and fileservices? You aren´t kidding me, are you? If using KVM I at least suggest to activate kernel same page merging. Fast storage also depends on cache memory, which the machine will lack if you fill it with virtual machines. And yes as explained already yet another different workload. Even this ThinkPad T520 has more RAM, 8 GiB, and I just occasionaly fire up some virtual machines. > 2. There is no fixed implementation date, but I'm expected to start > working on it. Sooner the better, but no dead lines. >Equipment I have to work with is desktop class machine: Athlon X4, >4GB RAM and 4 3TB Seagate ST3000DM001 7200rpm. Server will be in my >office and will perform backup over internet. I do have APC UPS to >power off machine in case of power loss (apcupsd will take care of >that). Server based loads on a desktop class machine and possibly desktop class harddrives - didn´t look these up so if there are enterprise based ones with extended warranty ignore my statement regarding them? > In next few months it is expected that size of files on dedicated > servers will grow and it case that really happen I'd like to be able to > expand this system. Hardware RAID controllers are expensive and > managers always want to go with least expenses possible, so I'm stuck > with software RAID only. Well extension of RAID needs some thinking ahead. While you can just add disks to add capacity – not red
Re: Storage server
Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Martin Steigerwald: > > And, of course, thanks for your time and valuable advices, Stan, I've > > read some of your previous posts on this list and know you're storage > > guru. > > It wasn´t Stan who wrote the mail you replied to here, but yes I think > I can learn a lot from him regarding storage setups, too. Ah, forget this. Of course you answered to Stans mail with the good questions in it and I replied to your reply to Stan a second time with some more considerations and questions for you. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209082156.22556.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Veljko: > Well, it did sound a little to complex and that is why I posted to this > list, hoping to hear some other opinions. > > 1. This machine will be used for > a) backup (backup server for several dedicated (mainly) web servers). > It will contain incremental backups, so only first running will take > a lot of time, rsnapshot will latter download only changed/added files > and will run from cron every day. Files that will be added later are > around 1-10 MB in size. I expect ~20 GB daily, but that number can > grow. Some files fill be deleted, other will be added. > Dedicated servers that will be backed up are ~500GB in size. > b) monitoring (Icinga or Zabbix) of dedicated servers. > c) file sharing for employees (mainly small text files). I don't > expect this to be resource hog. > d) Since there is enough space (for now), and machine have four cores > and 4GB RAM (that can be easily increased), I figured I can use it > for test virtual machines. I usually work with 300MB virtual machines > and no intensive load. Just testing some software. Could it be that you intend to provide hosted monitoring, backup and fileservices for an customer and while at it use the same machine for testing own stuff? If so: Don´t. Thats at least my advice. (In addition to what I wrote already.) -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209082159.36172.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Getting 3D graphics support out of my ATI Rage XL video chip?
Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Stephen Powell: > On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 13:18:43 -0400 (EDT), Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Is that chip on a graphics card? > > No, it is built into the motherboard. Is this a server board? What do you want to use it for? -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209091408.25921.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Getting 3D graphics support out of my ATI Rage XL video chip?
Am Samstag, 8. September 2012 schrieb Stephen Powell: > On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 12:24:00 -0400 (EDT), Camaleón wrote: > > ... > > the VGA chipset is about 8 years (or so) old so > > don't expect astonishing results :-) > > I said the computer was new TO ME. I never said it was NEW. > This is a server machine literally thrown away by a business. > But it is now the most capable machine that I own. Ah, so a server board indeed. > > And you need 3D acceleration because...? > > I don't NEED it, I just WANT it. I want it > mainly because I want to run GNOME 3. GNOME 3 initializes > in fallback mode if the graphics chip does not support 3D > acceleration, it seems. Well maybe using LLVMPIPE software renderer will be faster and easier on this machine. But then I don´t know which versions of which debian package know to have it working out of the box. I´d bet that it will work on Wheezy, but then I never tried it. No need to. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209091410.03854.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Installation
Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Weaver: > Nothing anywhere near as complex as an expert Debian install, which is > what I prefer now. You compare an *expert* Debian install with a regular Windows install? Not a fair comparison it seems to me. From what I read you can even install Debian to a fresh box by just hitting enter all the time. I never tried this, but you have even guided partitioning in the installer. So what? I don´t think the Debian installer is that difficult. You do not have to use expert mode and I think beginners may be better off using the simple mode that asks less questions. That said installers from SUSE, Fedora and Ubuntu might be more polished. But then the Ubuntu live cd installer - not the Debian installer from the alternative CD - couldn´t even speak LVM for quite a while and it can still not speak SoftRAID AFAIK and there are plans to drop the alternate installer nonetheless. I wouldn´t like to have that flexibility removed from the Debian installer. I think the SUSE installer can do both LVM and SoftRAID. I am sure about LVM. But not completely sure about SoftRAID. I think it can do it. Anyway, if you have concrete suggestions on how to improve the Debian installer why don´t you just file enhancement requests or make your suggestions / concerns to the Debian installer team? Thanks, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209091505.44568.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Installation
Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Weaver: > > Don't know about Debian, it's been a while since I installed that, > > but I have installed a few others, > > and in most cases the only things you have to input are your > > language, your keyboard, and your > > time zone. And whether you will use the system time. (Thunderbird > > requires a few inputs, but > > they're the same in Windows.) That doesn't seem very complicated to > > me. . . . > > Well, no, it isn't. > But we are talking about Debian. > Specifically partitioning/file system decision making during install. > Regards, So you tried expert mode and also selected manual partitioning. Then the installer offers you to do just that. This seems like deciding to eat an apple and then complaining that it tastes like… an apple. If you choose manual partitioning you get to do just that. And I love that I can do it. The last time I tried a Windows installer partitioning choices were so limited that I wished I had a Debian installer to install Windows. Also the partitioning tool within the Windows installer has been very cumbersome. This has been quite some time and they may have improved this, but still… Use guided partitioning and be done with it in case you do not know much about partitions. The Debian installer has guided partitioning with and without LVM since quite some time. I just don´t get what you are complaining about. Do you have any *factual* and *concrete* issues with the Debian installer? Anything that you could put a finger at and show it to us? Then even better show it to the Debian installer team. I think they´d like constructive, concrete and helpful feedback. If you just like to complain, then better do not even bother to contact the Debian installer team. Thats at least my advice. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209091510.48141.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Installation
Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Camaleón: > > I quite much agree to the installation stuff. > > > > > > > > I put Linux on the laptop I bought with my father for my father. He > > used Firefox and Thunderbird and some crappy photo management > > software. > > > > > > > > I put KDE on it plus Iceweasel, Icedove and Digikam as applications. > > And each a button for internet on and off (this Debian Lenny > > installation is using HFC USB based ISDN adapter for accessing the > > net, thats why I am reluctant to upgrade to Squeeze or Wheezy, cause > > I have the gut feeling that ISDN on Squeeze or Wheezy is quite some > > fiddling again.) > > > > > > > > Well that just works. > > (...) > > And you know why that works? Because "you" wanted it worked, not your > father. Now imagine your father has to do all the job by his own, do > you still think he is going to maintain his current setup? I really > doubt it. > > Now imagine a different scenario. Your father buys a computer with a > Linux distribution on it which is already preconfigured. At a first > glance it seems to be a good idea: the computer is cheaper because > there's no OS licence that needs to be tributed and the guy of the > shop instructs your father about the advandatges of the Linux systems > -less viruses and malwares, rock-solid...). Well may father came with an outdated Ubuntu box he bought in some discounter and asked me to install it ;). So it wasn´t exactly my wish to have this working. But then maybe my statement that I won´t fix any Windows if it gets broke may have contributed to his decision. But I think he wanted to have a glimpse at what his son is working with all the time and thats this has been more of a reason for his decision. > Back to home, your uncle sends a "beautiful" PowerPoint file by e-mail > to your father and despite LibreOffice can open the file with no > problem your father ears no sound. And here is where the real linux > hist[eo]ry starts... at this point, unless your father either a) shows > a real interest in solving the problem by himself or b) you or someone > else is near to solve the problem, 99% of the time your fictional > father will simply jump to Windows. So ignorance of real open standards, well standards that mean to be interoperable from the beginning, harms the adoption of Linux? Ignorance of a standard that has been formalized way before Microsoft paid their standard through the comitee members. Ignorance of a standard thats way easier to grasp cause its documentation is to the point… What a pity. But then I - as a corner case or not - don´t give much about being able to view a power point presentation. If I cared about being a corner case I wouldn´t be where I am now. If 99% of all people decide to give up their freedom when using their computers I do not need to follow. Just as if 99% of all people decide to jump through a window and get themselves hurt I do not have to follow. But unless you plan to have world domination of Debian on all desktops I see no point in going on with this discussion… Actually everyone is free to use the operating of their choice or non- choice so either people advertise Linux to other people by showing it off and probably helping installing it to change the situation or not. I do think that having Windows is often the result of a non-choice of the operating system. Just like having Android on a smartphone btw. If you learnt Linux in the school and get bought a Linux machine by your parents and enough others have a similar socialisation how do you care about any Powerpoint file at all? Frankly, I do not care anymore. I say openly how I see Linux. I show it off to interested people. And if someone is not interested, I let them have their way. But if someone needs help and has Windows I am quite reluctant about it meanwhile. Cause I have better things to do with my life than wasting countless hours on fixing Windows systems. Been there, done that and found other stuff to be more joy for me. If people insist of running around an advertising pillar with an advertisement of how good Windows is without looking in another direction than where the pillar is that is perfectly their choice. And I do not get what their choice has to do with Debian. Frankly, is non- adoption of Debian by any amount of those users something that makes your life more miserable? If not, why do you care? When I learnt something from life it is that I can ever only change myself. I cannot change anyone else. So why even bother trying to do this? If you feel your mission is to raise adoption of Linux on the desktop, then by all means follow all ways that you see fit that invite people to try it out. Sell pre-installed computers, give computer courses, whatever. If not, then just be happy with what you have. Its a lot with Debian GNU/BSD/Linux in my eyes. Really a lot. My life is not more miserable due to having just a user base of 1,5%
Re: Installation
Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Camaleón: > On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 17:23:52 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Am Sonntag, 9. September 2012 schrieb Camaleón: > (...) > > >> > Well that just works. > >> > >> (...) > >> > >> And you know why that works? Because "you" wanted it worked, not > >> your father. Now imagine your father has to do all the job by his > >> own, do you still think he is going to maintain his current setup? > >> I really doubt it. > > (...) > > > Well may father came with an outdated Ubuntu box he bought in some > > discounter and asked me to install it ;). > > Now ask yourself what would had happened in the event "you" were not a > variable to consider :-) > > > So it wasn´t exactly my wish to have this working. > > (...) > > What I wanted to say is that maybe your father would have considered > another option should "you" were not available to do the job of > installing linux on his behalf. > > >> Back to home, your uncle sends a "beautiful" PowerPoint file by > >> e-mail to your father and despite LibreOffice can open the file > >> with no problem your father ears no sound. And here is where the > >> real linux hist[eo]ry starts... at this point, unless your father > >> either a) shows a real interest in solving the problem by himself > >> or b) you or someone else is near to solve the problem, 99% of the > >> time your fictional father will simply jump to Windows. > > > > So ignorance of real open standards, well standards that mean to be > > interoperable from the beginning, harms the adoption of Linux? > > Ignorance of a standard that has been formalized way before > > Microsoft paid their standard through the comitee members. Ignorance > > of a standard thats way easier to grasp cause its documentation is > > to the point… > > > > What a pity. > > (...) > > Ignorance is a pity by its own definition, but regarding the Linux > adoption, I think it's not the one to blame. > > Today there's Internet and users are (or "can be") informed by many > different means. The problem with Linux adoption is that users do not > want to be informed, they only want their computers work with the less > headaches and this is not possible with Linux, which on the other hand, > is where it relies its beauty: Linux forces you to think and to choose. > > So in brief, if you ask me if Linux is ready for the desktop I'd say > that yes; it's people who is not ready for Linux. I am not even sure about this. There is quite some things where I now shake my head and think "this is so easy with Linux now" compared with how it was say 5 or 10 years ago. I plug in a second screen or beamer on the laptop and get a dialog and it just works or I drag something into K3b and it just burns or I open some file even from Windows in LibreOffice and it just displays and and and… heck, even Nepomuk desktop search is working quite nicely these days. Only KDEPIM 2 still seems to be a work in progress, but it seems to come along nicely from what I read. Linux on desktop has gone a long way. And I think it is still on a journey. I think its important to think on Windows, too. Do you know the video or was it a series of images where someone starts up Internet Explorer goes to some webpages and clicks yes everytime he is asked whether to install a toolbar and such. Up to the extent of not being able to view a webpage in it cause the space in the browser window has become to small? -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209091804.00696.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Montag, 10. September 2012 schrieb Veljko: > On Sat, Sep 08, 2012 at 09:28:09PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Consider the consequenzes: > > > > If the server fails, you possibly wouldn´t know why cause the > > monitoring information wouldn´t be available anymore. So at least > > least Nagios / Icingo send out mails, in case these are not stored > > on the server as well, or let it relay the information to another > > Nagios / Icinga instance. > > Ideally, Icinga/Nagios/any server would be on HA system but that, > unfortunately is not an option. But of course, Icinga can't monitor > system it's on, so I plan to monitor it from my own machine. Hmmm, sounds like a workaround… but since it seems your resources are tightly limited… > > What data do you backup? From where does it come? > > Like I said, it's several dedicated, mostly web servers with users > uploaded content on one of them (that part is expected to grow). None > of them is in the same data center. Okay, so thats fine. I would still not be comfortable mixing production stuff with a backup server, but I think you could get away with it. But then you need a different backup server for the production stuff on the server and the files from the fileserver service that you plan to run on it, cause… > > I still think backup should be separate from other stuff. By design. > > Well for more fact based advice we´d require a lot more information > > on your current setup and what you want to achieve. > > > > I recommend to have a serious talk about acceptable downtimes and > > risks for the backup with the customer if you serve one or your boss > > if you work for one. > > I talked to my boss about it. Since this is backup server, downtime is > acceptable to him. Regarding risks of data loss, isn't that the reason > to implement RAID configuration? "R" stands for redundancy. If hard > disk fails, it will be replaced and RAID will be rebuild with no data > loss. If processor or something else fails, it will be replaced with > expected downtime of course. … no again: RAID is not a backup. RAID is about maximizing performance and/or minimizing downtime. Its not a backup. And thats about it. If you or someone else or an application that goes bonkers delete data on the RAID by accident its gone. Immediately. If you delete data on a filesystem that is backuped elsewhere, its still there provided that you notice the data loss before the backup is rewritten and old versions of it are rotated away. See the difference? Ok, so now you can argue: But if I rsnapshot the production data on this server onto the same server I can still access old versions of it even when the original data is deleted by accident. Sure. Unless due to a hardware error like to many disks failing at once or a controller error or a fire or what not the RAID where the backup is stored is gone as well. This is why I won´t ever consider to carry the backup of this notebook around with the notebook itself. It just doesn´t make sense. Neither for a notebook, nor for a production server. Thats why I recommend an *offsite* backup for any data that you think is important for your company. With offsite meaning at least a different machine and a different set of harddisks. If that doesn´t go into the head of your boss I do not know what will. If you follow this, you need two boxes… But if you need two boxes, why just don´t do the following: 1) virtualization host 2) backup host to have a clear separation and an easier concept. Sure you could replicate the production data of the mixed production/dataserver to somewhere else, but going down this route it seems to be that you add workaround upon workaround upon workaround. I find it way easier if the backup server does backup (and nothing else!) and the production server does backup (and nothing else). And removing complexity removes possible sources of human errors as well. In case you go above route, I wouldn´t even feel to uncomfortable if you ran some test VMs on the virtualization host. But that depends on how critical the production services on it are. Thanks, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209101602.54668.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Montag, 10. September 2012 schrieb Jon Dowland: > On Sat, Sep 08, 2012 at 09:51:05PM +0200, lee wrote: > > Some people have argued it's even better to use software raid than a > > hardware raid controller because software raid doesn't depend on > > particular controller cards that can fail and can be difficult to > > replace. Besides that, software raid is a lot cheaper. > > You also get transferrable skills: you can use the same tooling on > different systems. If you have a heterogeneous environment, you may > have to learn a totally different set of HW RAID tools for various > bits and pieces, which can be a pain. I think you got a point here. While the hardware of some nice LSI / Adaptec controllers appears to be excellent for me and the battery backed up cache can help performance a lot if you configure mount options correctly, the software side regarding administration tools in my eyes is pure and utter crap. I usually installed 3-4 different packages from http://hwraid.le-vert.net/wiki/DebianPackages in order to just find out which tool it is this time. (And thats already from a developer who provides packages, I won´t go into downloading tools from the manufacturers website and installing them manually. Been there, done that.) And of course each one of this goes by different parameters. And then do Nagios/Icinga monitoring with this: You basically have to write or install a different check for each different type of hardware raid controller. This is so utter nonsense. I really do think this strongly calls for some standardization. I´d love to see a standard protocol on how to talk to hardware raid controlllers and then some open source tool for it. Also for setting up the raid (from a live linux or what). And do not get me started about the hardware RAID controller BIOS setups. Usabilitywise they tend to be so beyond anything sane that I do not even want to talk about it. Cause thats IMHO one of the biggest advantages of software RAID. You have mdadm and be done with it. Sure it has a flexibility that may lure beginners into creating setups that are dangerous. But if you stay by best practices I think its pretty reliable. Benefits of a standard + open source tool would be plenty: 1) One frontend to the controller, no need to develop and maintain a dozen of different tools. Granted a good (!) BIOS setup may still be nice to be able to set something up without booting a Linux Live USB stick. 2) Lower learning curve. 3) Uniform monitoring. Actually its astonishing! You get pro hardware, but the software based admin tool is from the last century. Thats at least what I saw. If there are controllers by now which come with software support that can be called decent I´d like to now. I never saw an Areca controller, maybe they have better software. Otherwise I agree to Stan: Avoid dmraid. Either hardware RAID *or* software RAID. Avoid anything in between ;). Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209101618.43965.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Montag, 10. September 2012 schrieb Veljko: [… no backup before and then backup as necessary evil …] > > If so, if I would be in the position to say no, I would just say "no > > thanks, search yourself a different idiot for setting up such an > > insane setup". I understand, you probably do not feel yourself > > being in that position… > > Exactly, I'm not. You have my sympathy. I hope some of the answers to your questions help you to make something good out of the situation you are in. If you made sure to explain the risks to your boss you can say in case anything bad happens: I recommended doing backup in a different, safer way than you allowed me to do it and thats the result. And you are right: Some backup is better than no backup. (PS: And I didn´t want to imply that you were an idiot - my above sentence could be read as that. Sometimes its about a feeling of lack of choice. I wish that you will create more choice for yourself in the future. From what I read from your answers you are quite aware of the situation.) -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209102006.16902.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Montag, 10. September 2012 schrieb Veljko: > On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 08:05:49AM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: […] > > > In case I don't get that card, > > > should I remove /boot from RAID1? > > > > Post the output of > > > > ~$ cat /proc/mdstat > > > > I was under the impression you didn't have this system built and > > running yet. Apparently you do. Are the 4x 3TB drives the only > > drives in this system? > > I didn't till 30 minutes ago. :) I just installed it for exercise if > nothing else. Had a problem with booting. > > "Unable to install GRUB in /dev/sda > Executing 'grub-intall /dev/sda' failed. > This is a fatal error." > > After creating 1MB partition at the beginning of every drive with > "reserved for boot bios" it worked (AHCI in BIOS). GRUB needs a space between MBR and first partition. Maybe that space was to small? Or more likely you GPT partitioned the disk (as its 3 TB and MBR does only work upto 2 TB)? Then you need a BIOS boot partition. Unless you use UEFI, then you´d need about 200 MB FAT 32 EFI system partition. > Anyhow, this is output of "cat /proc/mdstat": > Personalities : [raid1] [raid10] > md1 : active raid10 sda3[0] sdd2[3] sdc2[2] sdb3[1] > 5859288064 blocks super 1.2 512K chunks 2 near-copies [4/4] > [] [==>..] resync = 32.1% (1881658368/5859288064) > finish=325.2min speed=203828K/sec > > md0 : active raid1 sda2[0] sdb2[1] > 488128 blocks super 1.2 [2/2] [UU] > > unused devices: > > I'm not sure what is being copied on freshly installed system. What do you mean by that? SoftRAID just makes sure that all devices data is in sync. Thats needed for a block level based RAID. An hardware RAID controller would have to do this as well. (Unless it uses some map of sectors it already used, then only these would have to be kept in sync, but I am not aware of any hardware RAID controller or SoftRAID mode that does this.) BTRFS based "RAID" (RAID 1 means something different there) does not need an initial sync. But then no, thats no recommendation to use BTRFS yet. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209102016.00856.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Freitag, 14. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: > Thus my advice to you is: > > Do not use LVM. Directly format the RAID10 device using the mkfs.xfs > defaults. mkfs.xfs will read the md configuration and automatically > align the filesystem to the stripe width. Just for completeness: It is possible to manually align XFS via mkfs.xfs / mount options. But then thats an extra step thats unnecessary when creating XFS directly on MD. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209141457.49673.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Samstag, 15. September 2012 schrieb Bob Proulx: > Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Am Freitag, 7. September 2012 schrieb Bob Proulx: > > > Unfortunately I have some recent FUD concerning xfs. I have had > > > some recent small idle xfs filesystems trigger kernel watchdog > > > timer ... > > > due to these lockups. Squeeze. Everything current. But when idle > > > it would periodically lock up and the only messages in the syslog > > > and on > > > > Squeeze and everything current? > > No way. At least when using 2.6.32 default squeeze kernel. Its really > > old. Did you try with the latest 3.2 squeeze-backports kernel? > > But in the future when when Debian Jessie is being released I am going > to be reading then on the mailing list about how old and bad Linux 3.2 > is and how it should not be used because it is too old. How can it be > really good now when it is going to be really bad in the future when > supposedly we know more then than we do now? :-) I read a complaint about the very nature of software development out of your statement. Developers and testers improve software and sometimes accidentally introduce regressions. Thats the very nature of the process it seems to me. Yes, by now 2.6.32 is old. It wasn´t exactly fresh as Debian Squeeze was released, but now its really old. And regarding XFS 3.2 contains big load of improvements regarding metadata performance like delayed logging and more, other performance and bug fixes. Some bug fixes might have been backported via Stable maintainers. But not the improvements that might play an important role for a storage server setup. > For my needs Debian Stable is a really very good fit. Much better > than Testing or Unstable or Backports. So by all means, use it! Actually I didn´t even recommend to upgrade to Sid. If you read my post carefully you can easily notice it. I specifically recommended just to upgrade to a squeeze-backports kernel. But still if you do not use XFS or use XFS and do not have any issue, you may well decide to stick with 2.6.32. Your choice. > Meanwhile I am running Sid on my main desktop machine. I upgrade it > daily. I report bugs as I find them. I am doing so specifically so I > can test and find and report bugs. I am very familiar with living on > Unstable. Good for developers. Not good for production systems. Then tell that to my production use laptop here. It obviously didn´t hear about Debian Sid being unfit for producation usage. My virtual server still has Squeeze, but I am considering to upgrade it to Wheezy. Partly cause at the time I upgrade customer systems, I want to have seen Wheezy at work nicely for a while ;). Sure, not the way for everyone. Sure, when using Sid / Wheezy the occassional bug can happen and I recommend using apt-listbugs and apt- listchanges on those systems. But I won´t sign a all-inclusive Sid is unfit for production statement. If I know how to look up the bug database and how to downgrade stuff possibly also by using snapshot.debian.org then I might decide to use Sid or Wheezy on some machines – preferably in the desktop usage area – and be just fine with it. On servers I am quite more reluctant unless its my own virtual server, but even there I am not running Sid. For people new to Debian or people unwilling to deal with an occassional bug I recommend stable. Possibly with a backport kernel in some cases. Well so I think we basically say almost the same, but in different wording and accentuation. ;) -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209161148.23293.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Freitag, 14. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: > On 9/14/2012 7:57 AM, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Am Freitag, 14. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: > >> Thus my advice to you is: > >> > >> Do not use LVM. Directly format the RAID10 device using the > >> mkfs.xfs defaults. mkfs.xfs will read the md configuration and > >> automatically align the filesystem to the stripe width. > > > > > > > > Just for completeness: > > > > > > It is possible to manually align XFS via mkfs.xfs / mount options. > > But then thats an extra step thats unnecessary when creating XFS > > directly on MD. > > And not optimal for XFS beginners. But the main reason for avoiding > LVM is that LVM creates a "slice and dice" mentality among its users, > and many become too liberal with the carving knife, ending up with a > filesystem made of sometimes a dozen LVM slivers. Then XFS > performance suffers due to the resulting inode/extent/free space > layout. Agreed. I have seen VMs with seperate /usr and minimal / and mis-estimated sizing. There was perfectly enough place in the VMDK, but just in the wrong partition. I fixed it back then by adding another VMDK file. (So even with partitions I found those setups.) Something else is to split up /var/log or /var. But then we are talking about user and not system data here anyway. I have always recommended to leave at least 10-15% free, but from a discussion on XFS mailinglist where you took part, I learned that depending on use case for large volumes even more free space might be necessary for performant long term operation. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209161438.22645.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Hi Kelly, Am Samstag, 15. September 2012 schrieb Kelly Clowers: > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: > > On 9/14/2012 11:29 AM, Kelly Clowers wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 4:45 PM, Stan Hoeppner > >> wrote: > >>> On 9/13/2012 5:20 AM, Veljko wrote: > On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 08:34:51AM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: > > One of the big reasons (other than cost) that I mentioned this > > card is that Adaptec tends to be more forgiving with non RAID > > specific (ERC/TLER) drives, and lists your Seagate 3TB drives as > > compatible. LSI and other controllers will not work with these > > drives due to lack of RAID specific ERC/TLER. > > Those are really valuable informations. I wasn't aware that not > all drives works with RAID cards. > >>> > >>> Consumer hard drives will not work with most RAID cards. As a > >>> general rule, RAID cards require enterprise SATA drives or SAS > >>> drives. > >> > >> They don't work with real hardware RAID? How weird! Why is that? > > > > Surely you're pulling my leg Kelly, and already know the answer. > > > > If not, the answer is the ERC/TLER timeout period. Nearly all > > hardware RAID controllers expect a drive to respond to a command > > within 10 seconds or less. If the drive must perform error recovery > > on a sector or group of sectors it must do so within this time > > limit. If the drive takes longer than this period the controller > > will flag it as bad and kick it out of the array. The assumption > > here is that a drive taking that long to respond has a problem and > > should be replaced. > > > > Most consumer drives have no such timeout limit. They will churn > > forever attempting to recover an unreadable sector. Thus routine > > errors on consumer drives often get them kicked instantly when used > > on read RAID controllers. > > Why would I be pulling your leg? I have never had opportunity to work > with real raid cards. Nor have I ever heard anyone say that before. > The highest end I have used was I believe a Highpoint card, about > ~$150 range, which was fakeRAID (and I believe the drives > attached to that were enterprise drives anyway) > > Thanks for the info. Read the stuff that was linked from some other article link posted here. Especially: What makes a hard drive enterprise class? Posted on 05-11-2010 23:19:18 UTC | Updated on 05-11-2010 23:43:48 UTC Section: /hardware/disks/ | Permanent Link http://www.pantz.org/hardware/disks/what_makes_a_hard_drive_enterprise_class.html But also Everything You Know About Disks Is Wrong by ROBIN HARRIS on TUESDAY, 20 FEBRUARY, 2007 Update II: NetApp has responded. I’m hoping other vendors will as well. http://storagemojo.com/2007/02/20/everything-you-know-about-disks-is-wrong/ Open Letter to Seagate, Hitachi GST, EMC, HP, NetApp, IBM and Sun by ROBIN HARRIS on THURSDAY, 22 FEBRUARY, 2007 http://storagemojo.com/2007/02/22/open-letter-to-seagate-hitachi-gst-emc-hp-netapp-ibm-and-sun/ Google’s Disk Failure Experience by ROBIN HARRIS on MONDAY, 19 FEBRUARY, 2007 http://storagemojo.com/2007/02/19/googles-disk-failure-experience/ is quite intesting. So enterprise class drives have this configurable error correction timeout, but that said, if you leave traditional RAID setups you may still very well get away with using customer drives. Like Google did. Now all that from Storagemojo is 2007 stuff. Dunno how much is changed meanwhile. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209161443.11148.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Storage server
Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: > On 9/16/2012 7:38 AM, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > I have always recommended to leave at least 10-15% free, but from a > > discussion on XFS mailinglist where you took part, I learned that > > depending on use case for large volumes even more free space might be > > necessary for performant long term operation. > > And this is due the allocation group design of XFS. When the > filesystem is used properly, its performance with parallel workloads > simply runs away from all other filesystems. When using LVM in the > manner I've been discussing, the way the OP of this thread wants to > use it, you end up with the following situation and problem: > > 1. Create 1TB LVM and format with XFS. > 2. XFS creates 4 allocation group > 3. XFS spreads directories and files fairly evenly over all AGs > 4. When the XFS gets full, you end up with inode/files/free space > badly fragmented over the 4 AGs and performance suffers when > reading these back, or when trying to write new, or modify existing 5. > So you expand the LV by 1TB and then grow the XFS over the new space > 6. This operation simply creates 4 new AGs in the new space > 7. New inode/extent creation to these new AGs is fast and reading back > is also fast. > 8. But, here's the kicker, reading the fragmented files from the first > 4 AGs is still dog slow, as well as modifying metadata in those AGs > > Thus, the moral of the story is that adding more space to an XFS via > LVM can't fix performance problems that one has created while reaching > the "tank full" marker on the original XFS. The result is fast access > to the new AGs in the new LVM sliver, but slow access to the original > 4 AGs in the first LVM sliver. So as one does the LVM rinse/repeat > growth strategy, one ends up with slow access to all of their AGs in > the entire filesystem. Thus, this method of "slice/dice" expansion > for XFS is insane. > > This is why XFS subject matter experts and power users do our best to > educate beginners about the aging behavior of XFS. This is why we > strongly recommend that users create one large XFS of the maximum size > they foresee needing in the long term instead of doing the expand/grow > dance with LVM or doing multiple md/RAID reshape operations. > > Depending on the nature of the workload, and careful, considerate, > judicious use of XFS grow operations, it is safe to grow an XFS without > the performance problems. This should be done long before one hits the > ~90% full mark. Growing before it hit ~70% is much better. But one > should still never grow an XFS more than a couple of times, as a > general rule, if one wishes to maintain relatively equal performance > amongst all AGs. Thanks for your elaborate explaination. I took note of this for my Linux Performance analysis & tuning trainings. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209161744.14359.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: rigmarole about debian and radeon
Am Samstag, 15. September 2012 schrieb Camaleón: > On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 16:04:47 +0200, lavcina wrote: > >>So first problem in KDE: HDMI output is not always enabled. In what > >>way "breaks"? Please describe what happens, what's what you see. > > > > > > > > > > yes that's the case. The kde Monitor configuration tool sometimes > > does not recognize the HDMI device and just blank fields are > > displayed. My little VGA Monitor then becomes the main display and > > the only one stated in the kde tool. The HDMI Monitor does not > > start at all or becomes the extended virtual screen. On boot-up > > only the middle part of my big HDMI screen is used and the login > > screen blinks slowly > > - Can you enable the HDMI monitor manually by means of "xrandr"? Good idea. If it does, a configuration snippet in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d could be helpful. The recommendation to not use any configuration at all is often best, but in multi monitor setups I am using some configuration snippet in said directory on the workstation at work since quite some time, cause automatic setup didn´t work for me either. Before that trying to setup up things with krandrtry might help. But then this settings might only be specific to one desktop environment, namely KDE in this case. A configuration snippet for X.org should work in any desktop environment / session. Reading recommendation: http://wiki.debian.org/XStrikeForce/HowToRandR12 So place something along the lines of: - Section "Device" Identifier "My Graphic Board" ... Option "Monitor-LVDS" "Internal Panel" Option "Monitor-VGA" "External VGA Monitor" EndSection Section "Monitor" Identifier "Internal Panel" ... EndSection Section "Monitor" Identifier "External VGA Monitor" ... EndSection - in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/display.conf (or something like this). Adapt monitor output names to what xrandr tells you as output names. You can hardcode resolutions as needed. I would only do that if automatic detections fails tough. If necessary raise the maximum virtual size. All described on that wiki page. Golden rule: Only configure that which doesn´t work out of the box. Leave everything else out. That approach works really nicely for me since the time X.org was changed to configure almost everything automatically. If need be I could dig out my configuration snippet when I am back at work next week. > - Does the same happen with Squeeze stock kernel? If I recall > correctly, you were using a kernel from backports. OTOH it might be an idea to try with backport kernel + backport X.org as well. Squeeze Radeon drivers are quite old already. > - Does the same happen with an updated kernel (backports has now > kernel 3.2.23) ;) Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209181402.29725.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: Wheezy managesieve segfault
Am Dienstag, 18. September 2012 schrieb Denis Witt: > On Fri, 14 Sep 2012 16:32:43 + (UTC) > > > [Dovecot] Managesieve segfault with dovecot 2.1.8 > > http://dovecot.org/pipermail/dovecot/2012-September/068130.html > > > > Although both versions differ (Wheezy has 2.1.7), the error is quite > > similar. > > Yes, seems to be the same. So I'll wait for an update. Thanks. > > What google search terms did you use? With my search I just found > problem with "gold linker" It may help if you report a bug with the approbiate package, if its not already there. Search http://bugs.debian.org and use reportbug on dovecot- managesieved or how the package is named if not bug is reported. Thanks, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209181405.57821.mar...@lichtvoll.de
