Re: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
Colbeck, Andrew wrote: This is because they publish MX records for hosts that are up, but not accepting mail. IMail then thinks it's a great idea to try to send to that host 10 minutes later. And again. And again. I believe if you turn off DNS Caching and Failed Domain Skipping in the Queue Manager, that will stop this from happening. I suggested this to someone on the list back when this Hotmail thing started and they reported back that it solved the problem, although I have heard nothing since. I've found that there isn't a measurable benefit to having these on with my server, and the Failed Domain Skipping and sometimes DNS Caching can cause unnecessary delays. I've never had a problem with Hotmail that I am aware of. Matt -- = MailPure custom filters for Declude JunkMail Pro. http://www.mailpure.com/software/ = --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
Andy, Microsoft certainly is an important player. I just wish that they would stick to the standards that everyone else does. In order to get mail to them in an orderly fashion, I need to use a static copy of their DNS record in the DNS server on my mailserver, that I've cooked to know only about the inbound Hotmail.com and Microsoft.com servers that are actually responding. This is because they publish MX records for hosts that are up, but not accepting mail. IMail then thinks it's a great idea to try to send to that host 10 minutes later. And again. And again. They also mix and match some of their HELO, forward lookup, and reverse lookup. And they're notorious for having no reverse lookup on their outbound mailhosts for Hotmail.com For example, check out: http://www.dnsreport.com/tools/[EMAIL PROTECTED] They probably have a decent reason for what they're doing (e.g. DoS protection and response), but their implementation of it is poor. Andrew 8) -Original Message- From: Andy Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 11:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ? Hi Bill, Again, my opinion is not what matters. I understand your arguments. I can only go by what my clients do and the trend that I see develop. Two large domains will implement it, apparently other large organizations will add SPF2.0 TXT records "just in case". After all, it does no harm - so it's cheap insurance. So - instead of standing on a high (open source) horse, I prefer to USE that information that OTHERs publish to reduce Spam sent to MY network in the meantime. That may not be "right" - but it sure is practical. No? Best Regards Andy Schmidt H&M Systems Software, Inc. 600 East Crescent Avenue, Suite 203 Upper Saddle River, NJ 07458-1846 Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 http://www.HM-Software.com/ --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
Could help notice Microsoft states "The Sender ID Framework is an industry standard". http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/twc/privacy/spam_senderid.mspx Michael Jaworski Puget Sound Network, Inc. (206) 217-0400 (800) 599-9485 --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
Bill, I think the matter of the licensing and potential patent problems with SPF are limiting factors only for the Open Source movement's software development, as it affects developers, not implementors. As we see with the Apache Software Foundations' letter to the MARID group, they won't put support for it in their software. Fine and good, that doesn't stop anyone else from writing an add-on, and somebody will. Fork, you say? Nothing new there! In the face of this opposition, Microsoft may relent and drop their paper tiger licensing scheme, and make a promise to not inflict patent fees. If I remember correctly, TrollTech had similar licensing restrictions with their Qt library, and getting GNU support for applications that used it was a problem, and slowed KDE adoption thereby. Although the source had been available for years, but not for commercial use, TrollTech eventually GPL'ed the source and all was well. I think they ended up with a dual licence so that free-use and and commercial for-profit were both acceptable. Me, I think SPF is useful, even if only viewed as Sender-ID "Lite", and I want to use it. Andrew 8) -Original Message- From: Bill Landry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 11:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ? Good luck trying to rally support around this one. If the open source community is not going to support it, and none of Microsoft's competitors (Yahoo, AOL, GMail, etc.), then what makes you think that other ISPs and companies are going to rally around SenderID, especially when their are other competing standards that are not so encumbered by patents and licenses as SenderID is? Bill - Original Message - From: "Andy Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 10:55 AM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ? Hi, Nope, they don't read Apache announcements. They want to make sure that they can send newsletters to their MSN and Hotmail subscribers and want the appropriate records added to their domains. Now, if my clients (and possibly other hosters' clients) demand those TXT records to be added (which they are entitled to), then I give a horse's butt about Apache, Unix and any other political faction. As a provider, I'm must being pragmatic - if there is a significant number of domains that have DNS TXT records with SPF2.0 information, then I sure hope that the leading anti-Spam software (Declude) will "exploit" those TXT records for MY benefit. Best Regards Andy Schmidt H&M Systems Software, Inc. 600 East Crescent Avenue, Suite 203 Upper Saddle River, NJ 07458-1846 Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 http://www.HM-Software.com/ --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
>
> Correct. But there are also the patent issues, and the "muckiness" of it
> all (I'm having troubles even finding an official Microsoft document that
> documents this new Sender-ID).
>
Scott, have you looked at this
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/twc/privacy/spam_senderid.mspx
It seems to have what you would need to implement in Declude.
I found it in about two minutes, have you heard of Google? Just kidding.
(':>
Kevin
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RE: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
> Correct. But there are also the patent issues, and the "muckiness" of it > all (I'm having troubles even finding an official Microsoft document that > documents this new Sender-ID). > Scott, have you looked at this http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/twc/privacy/spam_senderid.mspx It seems to have what you would need to implement in Declude. I just did. :) It's one of perhaps a dozen proposed versions of SPF that have been released since the original specification was supposedly frozen, but appears as though it may become a standard. I found it in about two minutes, have you heard of Google? Just kidding. Actually, I *did* search Google -- searching for 'site:microsoft.com spf2' and 'site:microsoft.com spf2.0'. No hits on either. I'm guessing the SPF pages are outside of Google's reach (I believe they have a maximum number of pages they cache at any given domain). -Scott --- Declude JunkMail: The advanced anti-spam solution for IMail mailservers since 2000. Declude Virus: Ultra reliable virus detection and the leader in mailserver vulnerability detection. Find out what you've been missing: Ask for a free 30-day evaluation. --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
Bill, I'm well aware of the disputes. But my level of knowledge doesn't make a difference. I'd like to check other people's SPF2 records, no matter how I "feel" about the whole issue. This is not the time for my personal preference to override what's clearly best for my mail server. If others publish TXT records that will help my mail server to qualify mail, then I sure want to do that! Best Regards Andy Schmidt H&M Systems Software, Inc. 600 East Crescent Avenue, Suite 203 Upper Saddle River, NJ 07458-1846 Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 http://www.HM-Software.com/ --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
Hi Bill, Again, my opinion is not what matters. I understand your arguments. I can only go by what my clients do and the trend that I see develop. Two large domains will implement it, apparently other large organizations will add SPF2.0 TXT records "just in case". After all, it does no harm - so it's cheap insurance. So - instead of standing on a high (open source) horse, I prefer to USE that information that OTHERs publish to reduce Spam sent to MY network in the meantime. That may not be "right" - but it sure is practical. No? Best Regards Andy Schmidt H&M Systems Software, Inc. 600 East Crescent Avenue, Suite 203 Upper Saddle River, NJ 07458-1846 Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 http://www.HM-Software.com/ --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
Hi Scott: >> But how are they hearing about the Sender-ID records in the first place? Virtually everything points to real SPF. << Apparently, Microsoft has been promoting SenderID to email mailing houses (see: http://www.exacttarget.com/) and to their network of Microsoft Partners, who in turn are educating their customers. I've had several inquiries by large clients in the past 2 weeks. Example, one client writes me: "I sat through a webinar last week that talked about sender ID and the new requirements of the CAN-SPAM law." To be fair, they disclose the fact that the patent issues may lead to a DIFFERENT standard down the road - but that for now, the Microsoft sites will use it and that's critical mass enough: "When do I need to Implement? Microsoft plans to start checking for Sender ID records in October of 2004, so we recommend you publish records by 10/1/04. Will the IETF approve Sender ID as a standard? There has been lots of talk of this recently. The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) has witheld their support for Sender ID due to a pending patent by Microsoft on the technology. The IETF will only approve license-free technologies as standards. This means that though we may eventually have a different standard from the IETF, all signs still point to Microsoft using Sender ID, so compliance with it is highly recommended." Best Regards Andy Schmidt H&M Systems Software, Inc. 600 East Crescent Avenue, Suite 203 Upper Saddle River, NJ 07458-1846 Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 http://www.HM-Software.com/ --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
- Original Message - > Correct. But there are also the patent issues, and the "muckiness" of it > all (I'm having troubles even finding an official Microsoft document that > documents this new Sender-ID). Here you go: "Sender ID" (Published: June 23, 2004 | Updated: July 12, 2004) http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/twc/privacy/spam_senderid.mspx and "Sender ID - Executive Overview" (Published: July 12, 2004) http://download.microsoft.com/download/c/0/4/c0412bf5-86f9-42fa-9f67-59a166c13a77/senderid_exec.pdf and "Sender ID - Deployment Overview for E-Mail Senders" (Published: July 12, 2004) http://download.microsoft.com/download/9/e/d/9ed3b337-7a53-4fd8-bd3e-6c483a2b669a/senderid_deploy.pdf and "Sender ID Draft Specification: MTA Authentication Records in DNS" (Published June 23, 2004) http://download.microsoft.com/download/d/a/2/da2821f5-6acb-4058-8974-5a3c7d187794/senderid.pdf Bill --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
Good luck trying to rally support around this one. If the open source community is not going to support it, and none of Microsoft's competitors (Yahoo, AOL, GMail, etc.), then what makes you think that other ISPs and companies are going to rally around SenderID, especially when their are other competing standards that are not so encumbered by patents and licenses as SenderID is? Bill - Original Message - From: "Andy Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 10:55 AM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ? Hi, Nope, they don't read Apache announcements. They want to make sure that they can send newsletters to their MSN and Hotmail subscribers and want the appropriate records added to their domains. Now, if my clients (and possibly other hosters' clients) demand those TXT records to be added (which they are entitled to), then I give a horse's butt about Apache, Unix and any other political faction. As a provider, I'm must being pragmatic - if there is a significant number of domains that have DNS TXT records with SPF2.0 information, then I sure hope that the leading anti-Spam software (Declude) will "exploit" those TXT records for MY benefit. Best Regards Andy Schmidt H&M Systems Software, Inc. 600 East Crescent Avenue, Suite 203 Upper Saddle River, NJ 07458-1846 Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 http://www.HM-Software.com/ --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
I wonder if others on this list have seen inquiries from their hosting customers indicating that there will be some good number of domains who will support it. But how are they hearing about the Sender-ID records in the first place? Virtually everything points to real SPF. Besides I have seen Declude "jump" on some pretty "irrelevant" proposals in the last year. Compared to that SenderID will be relevant from Day 1, if it helps me to block MSN and Hotmail impersonators. I can't think of any good reason NOT to support it, even if it was "MSN" and "Hotmail" only. These two domains achieve is all that's needed to achieve critical mass. No? The problem is that it is only coming to light 11 days before "Day 1". People have had about a year to work on SPF support. Especially, since it appears to me as if the syntax of SPF 2.0 vs. SPF1 appears so closely related (if not mostly identical) and the development effort is probably a fraction of what was spent to set up SPF1 originally? Correct. But there are also the patent issues, and the "muckiness" of it all (I'm having troubles even finding an official Microsoft document that documents this new Sender-ID). -Scott --- Declude JunkMail: The advanced anti-spam solution for IMail mailservers since 2000. Declude Virus: Ultra reliable virus detection and the leader in mailserver vulnerability detection. Find out what you've been missing: Ask for a free 30-day evaluation. --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
Hi, Nope, they don't read Apache announcements. They want to make sure that they can send newsletters to their MSN and Hotmail subscribers and want the appropriate records added to their domains. Now, if my clients (and possibly other hosters' clients) demand those TXT records to be added (which they are entitled to), then I give a horse's butt about Apache, Unix and any other political faction. As a provider, I'm must being pragmatic - if there is a significant number of domains that have DNS TXT records with SPF2.0 information, then I sure hope that the leading anti-Spam software (Declude) will "exploit" those TXT records for MY benefit. Best Regards Andy Schmidt H&M Systems Software, Inc. 600 East Crescent Avenue, Suite 203 Upper Saddle River, NJ 07458-1846 Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 http://www.HM-Software.com/ --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
Hi Scott: I wonder if others on this list have seen inquiries from their hosting customers indicating that there will be some good number of domains who will support it. Besides I have seen Declude "jump" on some pretty "irrelevant" proposals in the last year. Compared to that SenderID will be relevant from Day 1, if it helps me to block MSN and Hotmail impersonators. I can't think of any good reason NOT to support it, even if it was "MSN" and "Hotmail" only. These two domains achieve is all that's needed to achieve critical mass. No? Especially, since it appears to me as if the syntax of SPF 2.0 vs. SPF1 appears so closely related (if not mostly identical) and the development effort is probably a fraction of what was spent to set up SPF1 originally? Best Regards Andy Schmidt H&M Systems Software, Inc. 600 East Crescent Avenue, Suite 203 Upper Saddle River, NJ 07458-1846 Phone: +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:+1 201 934-9206 http://www.HM-Software.com/ --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
Message- Original Message - From: Andy Schmidt > I have been contacted by several clients who want "SenderID" > information added to their DNS. If that's representative, then the > adoption rate should skyrocket next month, and I sure would > like to benefit from it! If do have a maintenance agreement, so > I have no problem downloading/installing Declude updates. Have your customers take a look at: http://apache.org/foundation/docs/sender-id-position.html http://apache.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/02/1446229&tid=148&tid=155&; Bill --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] SPF 2.0 ?
Does Declude correctly interprete the SPF records published by Hotmail/MSN? E.g., currently we publish something like this... v=spf1 mx ip4:216.124.168.0/28 include:webhost.hm-software.com -all but the new format would look like that: spf2.0/pra mx ip4:216.124.168.0/28 include:webhost.hm-software.com -all I believe those are actually Sender-ID: records, not SPF records. It's unclear right now what the status of SPF and Sender-ID are, and what *should* be done (should you publish SPF records or Sender-ID: records? should you check one or both? etc.). Once things get straightened out, we'll investigate the situation further. The last thing we want to do now is put in a lot of development effort for Microsoft's Sender-ID only to find out that due to the patent nobody uses it, and people are only going to use SPF. -Scott --- Declude JunkMail: The advanced anti-spam solution for IMail mailservers since 2000. Declude Virus: Ultra reliable virus detection and the leader in mailserver vulnerability detection. Find out what you've been missing: Ask for a free 30-day evaluation. --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
