Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi Michel,

2013/12/13 Michel Renon 

> Hi,
>
> Le 06/12/2013 19:39, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
>
>> Hello Michel,
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>
>> Indeed. I find you quite shy in fact, and I'm serious. To me it does
>> not look like you were ignored, rather that no one knows about it.
>> Which is a problem since the start.
>>
>
>
> I wouldn't say I'm shy, I'm just polite and I don't want to waste time and
> energy in endless discussion (mail or chat). And I understood that in this
> mailing list, you have to insist or even be aggressive to explain/force
> your UX ideas while I expected professional skills and democracy, at least
> meritocracy (I really miss Christoph Noack).
>
>
>
>
>>  [...]
>>>
>>
>> What would be better is that if your proposals were communicated. I've
>> never seen your name, never read any of your mails (except this thread)
>> before.
>>
>
> False !
> I wrote articles in my blog about LibreOffice design process in
> march/april 2013 and on 11/04/2013 sent an email :
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org, libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.
> freedesktop.org
> Cc: charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org, italo.vign...@gmail.com
>
> So, you had at least one (important !) email from me.
>
> And I had only 2 answers :
> - one from Emir Yāsin SARI
> - the other from Michael Meeks :
> (short version with my words)
> - "we don't want to take care of your advises"
> - "TDF is very happy with the current design team"
>
> and also few comments directly in the blog, but nobody from the TDF.
> So, when someone as Michael Meeks closes the door to my suggestions, what
> can I expect ? I would be foolish to insist.
>
>
> So I can return your argument :
> why only 2 person wrote answers to my articles in this ml ?
> why didn't you realized at that time that I have some expertise in UX
> design ?
> why nothing has changed in the design team workflow ? and in the way devs
> and designers work together ?
>
>
> Ans same question for my suggestion to postpone the startcenter : you ask
> my reasons to do so, but I explained it in my mail, just read it !
>
>
>
>  I don't read everything on the design list, but  I believe that
>> if you have not engaged with the design team first, nothing will happen.
>>
>
>
> Just FYI, I started with project OOo Renaissance ! (May 2009)
> (https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%
> 9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D)
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Michel_Renon
>
> My complete proposal as a pdf file (37 pages, 630 Ko)
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/2/26/Proposal_impress_ui_renon3.pdf
> (it was far from being perfect because I created it in few nights, while
> working for a diploma ; but still interesting ideas)
>
> BTW, you can see that there was already the "dribbblization" problem :
> only proposals made with screenshots had strong reviews.
>
>
> and I'm listed in the initial members of LO design team (but this page has
> been archived) :
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team
>
> BTW, Mirek, there is no information about you.
> What is your *real* experience in software design ?
> Have you ever produced a professional software ?
>

No. I'm simply a volunteer here, nothing else. :)
As I said before, I was never appointed as a UX lead, and you're welcome to
partake in all the activities I partake in. You can act as the "UX lead",
if you'd like. :)

>
> For my emails, just look at archive of mailing list and chat logs : I
> worked for color picker, template manager.
> From my email client stats, I wrote 77 mails in design list and 52 in
> ux-advise.
> I agree, I didn't communicated on a regular basis : I'm just a volunteer
> and also have a daily job. But when I realized that current design team
> lacks basic UX skills (while working on color picker), I lost most of my
> motivation and felt it was useless to make proposals.
>
>
>
> And the last emails in this mailing list really broke the last bits of
> motivation :
> - saying officially that design is and will ever be a second class citizen
>

It all depends on the people. If you have the skills to make design a first
class citizen here, go for it. Don't ask for my approval -- you don't need
it.


> - saying officially that TDF will never listen to users
>

That's not exactly true. What was said is that user comments won't be the
primary driving force behind development, to avoid feature creep.


> - saying officially that nothing will change (no roadmap, no mid/long term
> vision, only "bazaar" short term changes) beacuse LO is, as Charles said, a
> libertarian project
>

You can propose a roadmap or a vision. If people like it, they'll follow it.


> - design team has no plans to enhance the design process
>

Come to the IRC chat on Saturday -- we can talk about the design process
then.
However, it seemed to me from your blog posts that you were asking for a
paid group of professional UX designers working outside of the community,
which I don't really think has a 

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Michel Renon]

Hi,

Le 06/12/2013 19:39, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :

Hello Michel,

[...]

Indeed. I find you quite shy in fact, and I'm serious. To me it does
not look like you were ignored, rather that no one knows about it.
Which is a problem since the start.



I wouldn't say I'm shy, I'm just polite and I don't want to waste time 
and energy in endless discussion (mail or chat). And I understood that 
in this mailing list, you have to insist or even be aggressive to 
explain/force your UX ideas while I expected professional skills and 
democracy, at least meritocracy (I really miss Christoph Noack).







[...]


What would be better is that if your proposals were communicated. I've
never seen your name, never read any of your mails (except this thread)
before.


False !
I wrote articles in my blog about LibreOffice design process in 
march/april 2013 and on 11/04/2013 sent an email :
To: design@global.libreoffice.org, 
libreoffice-ux-adv...@lists.freedesktop.org

Cc: charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org, italo.vign...@gmail.com

So, you had at least one (important !) email from me.

And I had only 2 answers :
- one from Emir Yâsin SARI
- the other from Michael Meeks :
(short version with my words)
- "we don't want to take care of your advises"
- "TDF is very happy with the current design team"

and also few comments directly in the blog, but nobody from the TDF.
So, when someone as Michael Meeks closes the door to my suggestions, 
what can I expect ? I would be foolish to insist.



So I can return your argument :
why only 2 person wrote answers to my articles in this ml ?
why didn't you realized at that time that I have some expertise in UX 
design ?
why nothing has changed in the design team workflow ? and in the way 
devs and designers work together ?



Ans same question for my suggestion to postpone the startcenter : you 
ask my reasons to do so, but I explained it in my mail, just read it !




I don't read everything on the design list, but  I believe that
if you have not engaged with the design team first, nothing will happen.



Just FYI, I started with project OOo Renaissance ! (May 2009)
(https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D)
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Michel_Renon

My complete proposal as a pdf file (37 pages, 630 Ko)
https://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/2/26/Proposal_impress_ui_renon3.pdf
(it was far from being perfect because I created it in few nights, while 
working for a diploma ; but still interesting ideas)


BTW, you can see that there was already the "dribbblization" problem : 
only proposals made with screenshots had strong reviews.



and I'm listed in the initial members of LO design team (but this page 
has been archived) :

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team

BTW, Mirek, there is no information about you.
What is your *real* experience in software design ?
Have you ever produced a professional software ?

For my emails, just look at archive of mailing list and chat logs : I 
worked for color picker, template manager.
From my email client stats, I wrote 77 mails in design list and 52 in 
ux-advise.
I agree, I didn't communicated on a regular basis : I'm just a volunteer 
and also have a daily job. But when I realized that current design team 
lacks basic UX skills (while working on color picker), I lost most of my 
motivation and felt it was useless to make proposals.




And the last emails in this mailing list really broke the last bits of 
motivation :

- saying officially that design is and will ever be a second class citizen
- saying officially that TDF will never listen to users
- saying officially that nothing will change (no roadmap, no mid/long 
term vision, only "bazaar" short term changes) beacuse LO is, as Charles 
said, a libertarian project

- design team has no plans to enhance the design process

So I have nothing more to do for LibreOffice.
So this is my last message before unsubscribe.

Michel

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Rodolfo]

As soon as I have some free time, I'll work on that then (although I
would do some other unrelated work on LO also).

By the way, what is those 'themes' about?

Regards.

2013/12/11 Mirek M. :
> 2013/12/6 Rodolfo 
>> I just want to say that I'd be glad to help on implementation of the
>> Color picker once its design is done.
>
> Wonderful.
> Given that the GSoC project didn't come through and that there's still
> uncertainty as to whether themes will be implemented and when, we're taking
> an evolutionary approach with the picker.
> The first step would be to implement document colors:
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67995 .
> Having this would allow us to make broader changes to the default color
> palette, which we keep the same for compatibility reasons.
> It would also pave way for custom colors, making it possible to use a
> consistent set of custom colors within a document.
>
> Tell me if you'd like to work on this. :)

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi Rofolfo,


2013/12/6 Rodolfo 

> Hi, Michel.
>
> I just want to say that I'd be glad to help on implementation of the
> Color picker once its design is done.
>

Wonderful.
Given that the GSoC project didn't come through and that there's still
uncertainty as to whether themes will be implemented and when, we're taking
an evolutionary approach with the picker.
The first step would be to implement document colors:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67995 .
Having this would allow us to make broader changes to the default color
palette, which we keep the same for compatibility reasons.
It would also pave way for custom colors, making it possible to use a
consistent set of custom colors within a document.

Tell me if you'd like to work on this. :)


> I could do the Comment control on Writer ruler[1], because its
> proposal was clear enough to deploy[2].
>
> Regards,
> Rodolfo
>
> [1]
> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=e047a967b0db8c61dc977b52f3876fc4e385ad77
> [2]
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Comments_Ruler_Control
>
> 2013/12/5 Michel Renon :
> [snip]
> > Another example : the color picker.
> > How many hours spent in designing that ? (whenever it's completed or not)
> > Will it be implemented any day ?
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi Michel,
Sorry for taking so long to respond -- I had a really busy week.

2013/12/6 Michel Renon 

> Hi Mirek,
>
>
> Le 27/10/2013 02:04, Mirek M. a écrit :
>
>  Hi Michel,
>> This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're
>> welcome to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has
>> to accept those changes.)
>>
>
> As Cor Nouws already said, it's always more difficult to do something and
> then modify it again and again than taking time to design it correctly the
> first time.
> I don't even talk about users getting upset by regular changes.


Agreed on going for the best design before development.

>
>
>> If you'd like to do user studies, please be my guest. Right now, designs
>> are based on heuristics [1],
>>
>
> Too much abstract.
>

They might seem abstract at a cursory glance, but they're really quite
well-defined. They seem to have been devised by Alex Faaborg and have been
used to tag FireFox UX bugs.
BTW, if you have some time, I recommend his I/O presentations [1][2].

>
>  guidelines [2],
>>
>
> It would be ok, but here is only one (unimplemented ?) widget...
>

We refer to the latest Gnome guidelines when we don't have guidelines of
our own.
We should expand the guidelines when we hit on topics that the Gnome HIG
does not cover or when we have important reasons to diverge from their
guidelines and create our own.

>
>  and discussions,
>>
>
> That's the problem in the design team : too much unstructured discussions !
> You should spend your time on making prototypes and user testing in a
> scientific way.
>

Please guide the way. :)

>
>  but of
>> course it'd be great if they were validated by other means as well.
>>
>
>
Till today, the validation is done only with "I like", "I don't like", "I'd
> prefer" from the design lead/team.


I feel this relates to your earlier message, so I'll post a snippet:

" Then I made a proposal about entrance animations for Impress. You can see
that I followed the process I was talking in my blog
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance but that
proposal was refused by the design lead without any valid/scientific
arguments 
:http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2013-May/002012.html";

So, first and foremost, where does it say that I'm the design lead? I don't
recall being elected or appointed as one, nor do I recall calling myself
that.
Secondly, "I would rather opt for redesigning the current custom animation
panel than adding a new panel, especially as the task pane is overpopulated
as is." is not a rejection, it's simply me stating my opinion. Please don't
get discouraged so quickly. :)


> Creating a validation process means having a global vision, and precise
> goals with metrics (goals that can be measured ; ex: nb of clicks to
> perform a specific action, or mouse move distance).


The measurable goals you listed can have adverse affects on the UX -- they
put too much focus onto one specific UX problem without considering the
multitude of others. If we take number of clicks as an example, with the
least clicks being the most desirable, and have that as our goal, we could
easily end up with an unusable setup that could suffer from:
* Not enough space given to the document because the we put as many buttons
up front as we could
* Incomprehensible buttons because we shrank the icon size to fit as many
as we could
* Hard-to-target buttons because they've been made too small
* Being too hard to process because of the sheer volume of commands
presented at once
etc.

The principles we have take the broader situation into consideration.
For example, rather than number of clicks, the more broadly-defined
ux-efficiency principle allows for solutions like keyboard shortcuts,
contextual buttons, touch gestures, voice commands, etc., and the other
principles ensure that other important UX aspects aren't abandoned just to
support this principle.

As for the global vision, I wonder what exactly you'd imagine -- please
elaborate.

My take on the issue is that it'd be good to define what the purpose of
each module is and then base our design decisions on that purpose as well
as our principles and guidelines.
For example, if we say Writer is a tool for producing professional-looking
documents intended to be viewed page-by-page, then we should seriously
consider losing Web view (which goes against the page-by-page part) and
FontWork (which, ask any typographer, goes against the
"profesional-looking" part) -- or rather, spinning them off as extensions.
Extensions, in general, are an excellent way to provide features that are
not in the scope of the project, and they've been working excellently for
browsers.
(BTW, losing the FontWork feature wouldn't mean losing rendering of
FontWork/WordArt, but rather just leaving FontWork creation and editing up
to an extension. Whatever filetypes LibreOffice chooses to support should
be rendered as precisely as possible.)
If we say Writer is a tool for e

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello Michel,

Le Fri, 06 Dec 2013 01:09:37 +0100,
Michel Renon  a écrit :

> Hi Charles,
> 
> 
> (Sorry for long delay in my answer, but busy in my daily work)
> Thanks for taking time to answer.
> 
> I think that I should have introduced myself, in order to better
> explain my arguments :
> I'm a mechanical engineer, software engineer and teacher (in a 
> professional way : I have diplomas for all of them).
> I'm writing software since 1984, when I was teenager. Ok, it was only 
> bad basic, on an Oric Atmos (!). Then I bought my first Mac in 1987
> and I started to write scientific software form my mechanical
> studies. Then, finally, I could learn how to write code
> professionally. Since 1992, I wrote mostly scientific software
> (mechanical, also for medical), databases, then web sites, and for
> last 5 years I work with OpenERP.
> Since 1992, I listen to customer's needs and I have to translate that
> in code. And given my customer's feedback, I have some skills in
> "listening to users".
> And since 1987, my goal as a dev is to write software that is really 
> easy to use, so since 1987, I've done UX design.
> My biggest project was a mechanical software for the leading european 
> aircraft manufacturer, and 12 years after, it's still a success for
> users. And another example few weeks ago : the customer wanted a new 
> functionality, and other dev started something complicated. I just 
> discussed with people, asking few questions and then identified that 
> they need not one but three answers. One answer for every context,
> every use case. Last but not least, every answer will be very easy to
> code ! So I'm not a newbie when I talk about UX Design or "listening
> to users".

Cool!

> 
> 
> (all my answers are inline)
> 
> Le 25/10/2013 17:08, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
> > Hello Michel,
> >
> > I feel I need to address some of your points without talking too
> > much about the StartCenter proposal (which by the way I like very
> > much).
> >
> > Comments inline.
> >
> > Le Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:37:03 +0200,
> > Michel Renon  a écrit :
> >  [...]
> >>
> >> First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center
> >> is a huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is
> >> no design process :
> >> - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies,
> >> validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just "It would be useful
> >> to present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and
> >> do more fancy stuff." [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX
> >> part) are the same.
> >
> > It seems you are expecting a professional process of people actually
> > working on a regular basis for that. I don't think that's the case
> > here, and it does not change all the skills and talent the team has.
> >
> >>
> >> - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX
> >>
> >> - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely
> >> improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread,
> >> you can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of
> >> July, half time of GSOC.
> >
> > We must at least give credit to the Design/UX team for having
> > enforced a proper whiteboards-based process.
> 
> Just compare them with one test I made :
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance
> 
> status, schedule, use cases, technical context, metric, measure for
> each proposal...
> All of these elements are missing in the whiteboards while they are 
> minimum in any professional design process.

So my question is that how it was possible, with all your expertise,
not to include your process guidance and subprocesses in the design
process as it is documented today.


> 
> 
> > Again: this is a community, you
> > don't expect an homogeneous team to pop and start working out of the
> > blue.
> >
> 
> Devs have created a state-of-the-art process to build LO :
> repositories, code review, validations, automatic builds, automatic
> tests and so on... Why can't it be extended to the design ?
> 
> IMHO, it indicates that UX design and graphics are considered 
> second-class citizen in open source projects : they are not directly 
> linked to the code, they are here just to make the software look
> nice, so they are not very important.
> Even Mirek (Design lead) has difficulties to have is proposals
> implemented !
> 

Yes, and while it is not ideal, that's where community processes (not
design ones) enter into place to ensure that contributions from the
design team (or other teams) are taken into account, not necessarily in
an automatic way, but  are at least seriously evaluated. 


> My opinion is that the design process should be integrated in the
> global building process, just like other type of products (cars,
> buildings, any manufactured product...)

But your opinion is wrong, because you think a Free and Open Source
Software project works "just like other type of products". It  does
not, never will, never

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Rodolfo]

Hi, Michel.

I just want to say that I'd be glad to help on implementation of the
Color picker once its design is done.
I could do the Comment control on Writer ruler[1], because its
proposal was clear enough to deploy[2].

Regards,
Rodolfo

[1] 
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=e047a967b0db8c61dc977b52f3876fc4e385ad77
[2] 
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Comments_Ruler_Control

2013/12/5 Michel Renon :
[snip]
> Another example : the color picker.
> How many hours spent in designing that ? (whenever it's completed or not)
> Will it be implemented any day ?

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Michel Renon]

Hi Mirek,


Le 27/10/2013 02:04, Mirek M. a écrit :

Hi Michel,
This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're
welcome to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has
to accept those changes.)


As Cor Nouws already said, it's always more difficult to do something 
and then modify it again and again than taking time to design it 
correctly the first time.

I don't even talk about users getting upset by regular changes.



If you'd like to do user studies, please be my guest. Right now, designs
are based on heuristics [1],


Too much abstract.


guidelines [2],


It would be ok, but here is only one (unimplemented ?) widget...


and discussions,


That's the problem in the design team : too much unstructured discussions !
You should spend your time on making prototypes and user testing in a 
scientific way.



but of
course it'd be great if they were validated by other means as well.


Till today, the validation is done only with "I like", "I don't like", 
"I'd prefer" from the design lead/team.
Creating a validation process means having a global vision, and precise 
goals with metrics (goals that can be measured ; ex: nb of clicks to 
perform a specific action, or mouse move distance).



(I don't have the time and energy to invest in user studies or user
testing right now, which is why they aren't being done. It'd be great if
you could help there.)


The color picker experience was very interesting :
- in mailing list or in chat, design team spent endless hours trying to 
imagine/guess what would be better, based on only one screenshot
- in few hours, I made some html prototypes that allowed to reveal 
immediately some important question (live preview or not ?)


And Jacob Nielsen showed that with just 5 users, you find nearly 80% of 
UX problems.

(http://www.nngroup.com/articles/why-you-only-need-to-test-with-5-users/)

So I repeat : less discussions, more prototypes & user testing.



I understand you're not happy with the Start Center, and it would've
been ideal if you could have chimed in after the inital call for
designs,


When was it done ?
I searched both mailing lists (design and ux-advise) and found nothing 
about preparation of Gsoc. It seems that all subjects related to design 
were proposed without any preparation in the mailing lists.


The whiteboard for StartCenter was created on 24/07/2013, when GSoc was 
half time.
And the first official mail was created by Krisztian Pinter also on 
24/07/2013.


==> Design team should already work on subjects and prototypes for 
Gsoc'14. And same idea for LO4.4 (it's already too late to make 
proposals for LO4.3).


Just read my advise for planning :
http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-libre-office-design-process-part-7-schedule/



but now you can still chime in with suggestions for
improvement, user research, user testing, or propose patches.



Even if the design team creates a professional proposal based on user 
testing, it would be dependent on dev kindness to implement it.
It looks more politically/diplomatic than meritocracy : it's much easier 
to get your proposal implemented if you're friend with one dev.
It's not an offense against devs or design team : it's just the only 
human way of doing when there is no official rule.
So, as I said to Charles, it's better for me to stop making proposals 
for LibreOffice for now.


BTW, few days ago, I met some people who might be interested by 
LibreOffice UX. I hope we can work together and maybe contribute.


Regards,

Michel

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Michel Renon]

Le 27/10/2013 16:43, Cor Nouws a écrit :

Mirek M. wrote (27-10-13 02:04)

Hi Michel,
This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're
welcome
to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has to
accept
those changes.)


The problem is that a process is started, that is not always solid
enough to give the professional outcome that is needed. Despite the
enthousiasm and commitment of many people in the community.
You can diliver something that is not finished enough and say to the
ones that are affected: pls repair :)
Same with the template manager. Still broken functionality.
Thus when it's not finished in the sense that you can expect new users
to be enthusiastic (or at least not being putt-off) and exiting
(business) users to be able to work with it, there must be the option to
keep the work back to be more finihed for the next release.

That is what Michael explained in a IMO undertandable and correct way.


Thanks !
It's always pleasant to read that our opinion is well understood and 
supported.


Michel


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Michel Renon]

Hi Charles,


(Sorry for long delay in my answer, but busy in my daily work)
Thanks for taking time to answer.

I think that I should have introduced myself, in order to better explain 
my arguments :
I'm a mechanical engineer, software engineer and teacher (in a 
professional way : I have diplomas for all of them).
I'm writing software since 1984, when I was teenager. Ok, it was only 
bad basic, on an Oric Atmos (!). Then I bought my first Mac in 1987 and 
I started to write scientific software form my mechanical studies. Then, 
finally, I could learn how to write code professionally.
Since 1992, I wrote mostly scientific software (mechanical, also for 
medical), databases, then web sites, and for last 5 years I work with 
OpenERP.
Since 1992, I listen to customer's needs and I have to translate that in 
code. And given my customer's feedback, I have some skills in "listening 
to users".
And since 1987, my goal as a dev is to write software that is really 
easy to use, so since 1987, I've done UX design.
My biggest project was a mechanical software for the leading european 
aircraft manufacturer, and 12 years after, it's still a success for users.
And another example few weeks ago : the customer wanted a new 
functionality, and other dev started something complicated. I just 
discussed with people, asking few questions and then identified that 
they need not one but three answers. One answer for every context, every 
use case. Last but not least, every answer will be very easy to code !

So I'm not a newbie when I talk about UX Design or "listening to users".


(all my answers are inline)

Le 25/10/2013 17:08, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :

Hello Michel,

I feel I need to address some of your points without talking too much
about the StartCenter proposal (which by the way I like very much).

Comments inline.

Le Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:37:03 +0200,
Michel Renon  a écrit :
 [...]


First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a
huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design
process :
- a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies,
validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just "It would be useful to
present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do
more fancy stuff." [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part)
are the same.


It seems you are expecting a professional process of people actually
working on a regular basis for that. I don't think that's the case
here, and it does not change all the skills and talent the team has.



- a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX

- the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely
improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread,
you can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of
July, half time of GSOC.


We must at least give credit to the Design/UX team for having enforced
a proper whiteboards-based process.


Just compare them with one test I made :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance

status, schedule, use cases, technical context, metric, measure for each 
proposal...
All of these elements are missing in the whiteboards while they are 
minimum in any professional design process.




Again: this is a community, you
don't expect an homogeneous team to pop and start working out of the
blue.



Devs have created a state-of-the-art process to build LO : repositories, 
code review, validations, automatic builds, automatic tests and so on...

Why can't it be extended to the design ?

IMHO, it indicates that UX design and graphics are considered 
second-class citizen in open source projects : they are not directly 
linked to the code, they are here just to make the software look nice, 
so they are not very important.

Even Mirek (Design lead) has difficulties to have is proposals implemented !

My opinion is that the design process should be integrated in the global 
building process, just like other type of products (cars, buildings, any 
manufactured product...)






- he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no
blueprint...)


Yup, on the other it's called software freedom


So LibreOffice is the *only* software/project that has no roadmap !...

it looks like a joke !
I'm sure people from MIMO and other professional users will appreciate 
that information.




- at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX
brings lot of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y.




Do we
- use the proposal Mateusz gave us?


While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations.


Why are they broken?



no real studies : no goals, no roadmap, no use cases, no metrics...


However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly
propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a
graphist (not a UX designer).


True. But surely we should not burn the said graphist because he's not
an UX designer?


Please read my blog ent

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome screen LO 4.2

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Pavel,

Pavel Haratický píše v Čt 14. 11. 2013 v 21:32 +0100:

>   * I prefer a little bit more design by Mateusz Zasuwik (
> http://i.imgur.com/KWpS7tu.jpg - green sidebar on right and logo of
> LibreOffice in the right-down corner) then design by Stefan Knorr (
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/startcenter/startcen.html
> - green sidebar on right and no logo of LO)
> *+* also there are tabs for selection only a type of files
> (documents, spreadsheets, ...)

I am sorry - you can never make everyone happy, the personal tastes just
differ too much.  The current design was agreed by may as I understood
it, so the question if it is bearable for you even if you [personally]
prefer the other one :-)

>   * Other question is content of "Welcome screen" ... *previews of
> files* (Mateusz Zasuwik) or*icons only* (Stefan Knorr). I am working
> with LO 4.2 form early alpha versions but the previews are a "bit
> disturbing" from graphical point of view. I see the design with
> coloured icons from S. Knorr - but my (and I don't know if only my)
> opinion is that too much colourful. The design is "not clear" and
> icons are more expressive than other graphics.

I'd still like to give the previews a try - I'll make them a bit bigger,
and will remove the disturbing gray square around them, I think it'll
work fine; but still we can switch to icons only during the beta phase,
that's not an issue.

> - I am sending an alternative to the S. Knorr desing -
> grayscaled/lightened icons with coloured top-right corner only
>   http://ph.hostujeme.cz/LO/LO-Knorr-changed01.png

I like the updated icons - or at least this direction of making them a
bit lighter; Mirek / Astron, what is your view on that?  Should there be
changes, we should update all the icons (mime types etc.) the same way
though, not only in the start center.

>   * Is any possibility to change size of the previews?
> If it is possible, than it can be a potentional security risk if
> file contains only a few of words/numbers and the content is
> readable in preview ...

I don't see why it should be a security risk?  You can see previews only
of files that you already have, so... ;-)

>   * Is any possibility to view *details of files* (name, date/time of
> last change, size, ...) instead of previews of files or big icons?

Nope.

All the best,
Kendy


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-design] Welcome screen LO 4.2

[Pavel Haratický]

Hi all,
I think that "Welcome screen" or Mock up for LO 4.2 heading towards
perfections but I have some comments.

  * I prefer a little bit more design by Mateusz Zasuwik (
http://i.imgur.com/KWpS7tu.jpg - green sidebar on right and logo of
LibreOffice in the right-down corner) then design by Stefan Knorr (

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/startcenter/startcen.html
- green sidebar on right and no logo of LO)
*+* also there are tabs for selection only a type of files
(documents, spreadsheets, ...)
 
  * Other question is content of "Welcome screen" ... *previews of
files* (Mateusz Zasuwik) or*icons only* (Stefan Knorr). I am working
with LO 4.2 form early alpha versions but the previews are a "bit
disturbing" from graphical point of view. I see the design with
coloured icons from S. Knorr - but my (and I don't know if only my)
opinion is that too much colourful. The design is "not clear" and
icons are more expressive than other graphics.
- I am sending an alternative to the S. Knorr desing -
grayscaled/lightened icons with coloured top-right corner only
  http://ph.hostujeme.cz/LO/LO-Knorr-changed01.png
 
  * Is any possibility to change size of the previews?
If it is possible, than it can be a potentional security risk if
file contains only a few of words/numbers and the content is
readable in preview ...
 
  * Is any possibility to view *details of files* (name, date/time of
last change, size, ...) instead of previews of files or big icons?



Best regards,
Pavel Haraticky

PS: sorry for my English


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Cor,

Cor Nouws píše v Čt 07. 11. 2013 v 00:49 +0100:

> > the last .src, and convert it to .ui) so that it is much easier for
> > anybody in the design team to go, and just fix anything that looks ugly
> > or does not behave as it should.  Please, PLEASE, start using this power
> > - just grab an .ui file and start playing.
> 
> I would love to, but alas I'm not able to do that any time soon.

Sorry, I did not mean you directly :-) [I know you are busy] -  just
wanted to encourage all the people there.  I wanted to stress that an
extremely important part of the work that the developers are doing is to
enable much broader audience that can make the work directly, without
having to block on somebody who would turn designs into actual code.

Actually - it would be fantastic to add it as a requirement to the
Whiteboard process that in case a dialog / other interaction is
designed, it has to appear there as .ui at some (relatively early) stage
too, not only as a mockup.

All the best,
Kendy


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Kendy

Jan Holesovsky wrote (06-11-13 13:06)


The thing is that now, thanks to the great Krisztian's work, the start
center is just an .ui file that _anyone_ can edit in glade to make it
nicer.  I'd really like people here to understand that we have made a
huge effort in the code base (and it is still continuing until we erase


I understand the great work that has been done and that there are more/ 
relatively easy ways to improve how it looks now :)


And I'm really sorry that I did not give enough credits to all the good 
work from Krisztian and you and other.



the last .src, and convert it to .ui) so that it is much easier for
anybody in the design team to go, and just fix anything that looks ugly
or does not behave as it should.  Please, PLEASE, start using this power
- just grab an .ui file and start playing.


I would love to, but alas I'm not able to do that any time soon.

Cheers,

--
 - Cor Nouws
 - http://nl.libreoffice.org
 - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Cor, Michel,

Cor Nouws píše v Ne 27. 10. 2013 v 18:00 +0100:

> > I propose to mix those 2 points :
> >   - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the
> > LO4.1 start center
> > - start a new process to design a new new start center :
> > [...]
> 
> The biggest problem IMO at the moment is the appearance. It's off-puting.

I am late to the party it seems, but I'd really like to address this,
because I believe this is misunderstanding we should fix :-)

> If that cannot be fixed in time I would say: your step 1.

The thing is that now, thanks to the great Krisztian's work, the start
center is just an .ui file that _anyone_ can edit in glade to make it
nicer.  I'd really like people here to understand that we have made a
huge effort in the code base (and it is still continuing until we erase
the last .src, and convert it to .ui) so that it is much easier for
anybody in the design team to go, and just fix anything that looks ugly
or does not behave as it should.  Please, PLEASE, start using this power
- just grab an .ui file and start playing.

In the case of the start center, there is a bit of additional
development work necessary to make it look really beautiful [eg. to get
the green background for the buttons for example]; but if anybody here
provided me with .ui that has the buttons at the right places, with the
right descriptions etc. according to the Mateusz's friend's design, I
could focus on that harder pieces only, and I could even have time for
additional stuff like single click to open the document etc.

The file in question is here:

sfx2/uiconfig/ui/startcenter.ui

[http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/sfx2/uiconfig/ui/startcenter.ui]

Glade (if you are not on Linux - where you most probably have it
already) is here:

https://glade.gnome.org/

BTW - you do not have to download the file from the repository, you can
just edit the startcenter.ui in your installation of the daily build,
restart LibreOffice, and see your results immediately.  No iteration
through developers necessary - you have the power to make it behaving
perfectly, and send me the resulting .ui for integration :-)

All the best,
Kendy


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Mirek, all,

Mirek M. píše v St 30. 10. 2013 v 23:12 +0100:

> It'd be great if we could discuss this on the IRC chat this Sunday at 12:00
> UTC and reach a final destination --
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings.
> 
> If not, please comment here on specific parts of the proposals and reasons
> why they are desirable/undesirable.
> 
> Note that the tab bar will have the look defined by the OS, and thus the
> document area will most likely be white.
> 
> Kendy, do you think the toolbar can be made responsive for this release? If
> not, I'd probably agree to go with a sidebar.

No; unfortunately I can spend only a very limited time on this, and it
seems to me that implementing the sidebar way (Mateusz friend's design)
will be easier - if that works for you.

Sorry for not being responsive, was traveling the last week.

> I'm also curious if it will be possible to hide the menubar in the Center
> and have wizards, the lesser-used document types, and help in a menu at the
> end of the toolbar.

Best if you try to tweak the appropriate menu.xml, and push it via
gerrit, we cannot get rid of it for good though.  It should be this one:

framework/uiconfig/startmodule/menubar/menubar.xml

All the best,
Kendy


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Samuel Mehrbrodt]

Could you also discuss this Issue please: 
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70978


I won't be in the Chat, but I have already given my voice in the bug report.

Thanks
Samuel

Am 30.10.2013 23:12, schrieb Mirek M.:

Hi guys,
It'd be great if we could discuss this on the IRC chat this Sunday at 12:00
UTC and reach a final destination --
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings.



--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
It'd be great if we could discuss this on the IRC chat this Sunday at 12:00
UTC and reach a final destination --
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings.

If not, please comment here on specific parts of the proposals and reasons
why they are desirable/undesirable.

Note that the tab bar will have the look defined by the OS, and thus the
document area will most likely be white.

Kendy, do you think the toolbar can be made responsive for this release? If
not, I'd probably agree to go with a sidebar.

I'm also curious if it will be possible to hide the menubar in the Center
and have wizards, the lesser-used document types, and help in a menu at the
end of the toolbar.


On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Sophie  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I just want to remind you the deadlines here so nobody is surprised if
> they are missed ;)
> - Kendy asked for a design for alpĥa 1 which is due for week 45
> (November 4 to 10)
> - Hard feature freezed & branched libreoffice-4-2 is due for week 47
> (November 18 to 24)
> - Hard English string & UI freeze is due for week 51 (December 16 to 22)
> after this date it will be too late if any string has to be added.
> - Hard code freeze & branch libreoffice-4-2-0 is due week 2 (January 6
> to 12)
> after this date nothing is possible anymore for this release.
>
> So please, makes it possible as soon as you can, we will be able to test
> it and have feedback without stressing too much. Thanks in advance :)
>
> Kind regards
> Sophie
>
>
> Le 10/10/2013 11:40, Jan Holesovsky a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > Maybe you have noticed in the daily builds the new Startcenter that
> > LibreOffice 4.2 will come up with.  It is focused on improving the user
> > experience based on the assumption that the user very probably wants to
> > edit documents he/she has edited in the past.
> >
> > But there is a problem - when they open LibreOffice for the first time,
> > there is no recent document, and the Startcenter looks just too empty;
> > see here:
> >
> > http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter.png
> >
> > It would be great to provide default graphics for the case there is no
> > recent document yet - can you please start the call for designs & come
> > up with something beautiful & helpful that we could use inside the huge
> > white area? :-)
> >
> > It should be resizable, or able to survive resizing.  I believe we
> > should be able to get some text into it too, but hypertext might be
> > problematic I'm afraid.
> >
> > Other than that - looking forward to the designs! :-)  It would be
> > awesome to have the designs for Alpha1, in case some programming is
> > necessary; so the deadline is 4th November:
> >
> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.2#4.2.0_release
> >
> > Thank you in advance,
> > Kendy
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Sophie Gautier 
> Tel:+33683901545
> Membership & Certification Committee Member - Co-founder
> The Document Foundation
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Sophie]

Hi all,

I just want to remind you the deadlines here so nobody is surprised if
they are missed ;)
- Kendy asked for a design for alpĥa 1 which is due for week 45
(November 4 to 10)
- Hard feature freezed & branched libreoffice-4-2 is due for week 47
(November 18 to 24)
- Hard English string & UI freeze is due for week 51 (December 16 to 22)
after this date it will be too late if any string has to be added.
- Hard code freeze & branch libreoffice-4-2-0 is due week 2 (January 6
to 12)
after this date nothing is possible anymore for this release.

So please, makes it possible as soon as you can, we will be able to test
it and have feedback without stressing too much. Thanks in advance :)

Kind regards
Sophie


Le 10/10/2013 11:40, Jan Holesovsky a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> Maybe you have noticed in the daily builds the new Startcenter that
> LibreOffice 4.2 will come up with.  It is focused on improving the user
> experience based on the assumption that the user very probably wants to
> edit documents he/she has edited in the past.
> 
> But there is a problem - when they open LibreOffice for the first time,
> there is no recent document, and the Startcenter looks just too empty;
> see here:
> 
> http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter.png
> 
> It would be great to provide default graphics for the case there is no
> recent document yet - can you please start the call for designs & come
> up with something beautiful & helpful that we could use inside the huge
> white area? :-)
> 
> It should be resizable, or able to survive resizing.  I believe we
> should be able to get some text into it too, but hypertext might be
> problematic I'm afraid.
> 
> Other than that - looking forward to the designs! :-)  It would be
> awesome to have the designs for Alpha1, in case some programming is
> necessary; so the deadline is 4th November:
> 
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.2#4.2.0_release
> 
> Thank you in advance,
> Kendy
> 
> 


-- 
Sophie Gautier 
Tel:+33683901545
Membership & Certification Committee Member - Co-founder
The Document Foundation

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Michel,

Michel Renon wrote (25-10-13 16:37)


I propose to mix those 2 points :
  - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the
LO4.1 start center
- start a new process to design a new new start center :
[...]


The biggest problem IMO at the moment is the appearance. It's off-puting.
If that cannot be fixed in time I would say: your step 1.
Howver I don't have the idea that it is so bad that a full new process 
(your step 2) should be started...


Cheers,
Cor

--
 - Cor Nouws
 - http://nl.libreoffice.org
 - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Cor Nouws]

Cor Nouws wrote (27-10-13 16:43)


You can diliver something that is not finished enough and say to the
ones that are affected: pls repair :)


Obviously should be " You can't diliver something that is not finished 
enough and say to the ones that are affected: pls repair :) "


(You can, but it's "not done" IMO)


--
 - Cor Nouws
 - http://nl.libreoffice.org
 - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Cor Nouws]

Mirek M. wrote (27-10-13 02:04)

Hi Michel,
This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're welcome
to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has to accept
those changes.)


The problem is that a process is started, that is not always solid 
enough to give the professional outcome that is needed. Despite the 
enthousiasm and commitment of many people in the community.
You can diliver something that is not finished enough and say to the 
ones that are affected: pls repair :)

Same with the template manager. Still broken functionality.
Thus when it's not finished in the sense that you can expect new users 
to be enthusiastic (or at least not being putt-off) and exiting 
(business) users to be able to work with it, there must be the option to 
keep the work back to be more finihed for the next release.


That is what Michael explained in a IMO undertandable and correct way.

Cheers,

--
 - Cor Nouws
 - http://nl.libreoffice.org
 - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi Michel,
This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're welcome
to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has to accept
those changes.)

If you'd like to do user studies, please be my guest. Right now, designs
are based on heuristics [1], guidelines [2], and discussions, but of course
it'd be great if they were validated by other means as well.
(I don't have the time and energy to invest in user studies or user testing
right now, which is why they aren't being done. It'd be great if you could
help there.)

I understand you're not happy with the Start Center, and it would've been
ideal if you could have chimed in after the inital call for designs, but
now you can still chime in with suggestions for improvement, user research,
user testing, or propose patches.

If you'd like to chat further, come to today's IRC chat. [3]

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles
[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Guidelines
[3] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings

On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Michel Renon  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This thread makes me wake up from my silence for few months.
> I've already given up on working in the design team, because it's useless,
> but I wanted to express some comments and provide a clear answer to K-J.
>
> Thanks to Mateusz Zasuwik for his strong feedback !
> But I see that there is no real reactions.
>
> Le 24/10/2013 13:06, K-J LibreOffice a écrit :
>
>  Hi Kendy, Mirek, *,
>> Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>  Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-)
>>>
>>> I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome
>>> information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time
>>> experience than a 'no recent documents found'...
>>>
>>> Sorry for not being clear in my request :-(
>>>
>>
>> What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in discussion.
>>
>
>
> First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a huge
> fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design process :
> - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies,
> validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just "It would be useful to
> present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more
> fancy stuff." [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part) are the
> same.
>
> - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX
>
> - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely
> improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread, you can
> read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of July, half time of
> GSOC.
>
> - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no blueprint...)
>
> - at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX brings lot
> of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y.
>
>
>
>
>> Do we
>> - use the proposal Mateusz gave us?
>>
>
> While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations.
> However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly
> propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a
> graphist (not a UX designer).
>
>
>  - make any proposal of a sc-"wallpaper"?
>>
>
> Sorry, I don't understand what you mean .
> If it is about proposals to add some background image (ie wallpaper), then
> it's just some painting on a broken wall, so it's useless.
>
>  - announce it?
>>
>
> No !
>
>
>  - start other things?
>> - left it all?
>>
>
> I propose to mix those 2 points :
>  - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the LO4.1
> start center
> - start a new process to design a new new start center :
>- involve devs, QA team, a11y team
>- ask some users (specially from MIMO [3])
>- should enhance the current start center or create a new one ?
>- clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated by every
> team
>- only then, start to implement it
>
> It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a physical
> product, a building...).
>
> The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot himself in
> the foot :
> - don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4])
> - no roadmap (Charles clearly said that [5])
> - incoherent UI/UX [6][7]
> - schizophrenic behavior in design team [8]
> - ship unfinished/undesigned features (template manager for LO4.1, and
> today the start center)
>
> All this make me feel desperate about LibreOffice. Really. And the facts
> are here :
> http://it.slashdot.org/story/**13/10/20/2310240/forrester-**
> research-shows-steep-decline-**in-free-office-suite-stats
>
> As most users start switching to online and mobile version, there is no
> free office suite to compete GDocs or Office365 or Office for iOS/android.
> (where is LibreOffi

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello Michel,

I feel I need to address some of your points without talking too much
about the StartCenter proposal (which by the way I like very much).

Comments inline.

Le Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:37:03 +0200,
Michel Renon  a écrit :

> Hi,
> 
> This thread makes me wake up from my silence for few months.
> I've already given up on working in the design team, because it's 
> useless, but I wanted to express some comments and provide a clear 
> answer to K-J.
> 
> Thanks to Mateusz Zasuwik for his strong feedback !
> But I see that there is no real reactions.
> 
> Le 24/10/2013 13:06, K-J LibreOffice a écrit :
> > Hi Kendy, Mirek, *,
> > Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-)
> >>
> >> I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the
> >> 'welcome information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better
> >> first time experience than a 'no recent documents found'...
> >>
> >> Sorry for not being clear in my request :-(
> >
> > What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in
> > discussion.
> 
> 
> First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a 
> huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design 
> process :
> - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies, 
> validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just "It would be useful to 
> present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do
> more fancy stuff." [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part)
> are the same.

It seems you are expecting a professional process of people actually
working on a regular basis for that. I don't think that's the case
here, and it does not change all the skills and talent the team has.

> 
> - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX
> 
> - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely 
> improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread,
> you can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of
> July, half time of GSOC.

We must at least give credit to the Design/UX team for having enforced
a proper whiteboards-based process. Again: this is a community, you
don't expect an homogeneous team to pop and start working out of the
blue. 

> 
> - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no
> blueprint...)

Yup, on the other it's called software freedom
> 
> - at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX
> brings lot of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y.
> 
> 
> >
> > Do we
> > - use the proposal Mateusz gave us?
> 
> While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations.

Why are they broken?

> However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly 
> propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a 
> graphist (not a UX designer).

True. But surely we should not burn the said graphist because he's not
an UX designer? If you know about an UX designer who could contribute
his/her time here, please bring him/her here.

> 
> > - make any proposal of a sc-"wallpaper"?
> 
> Sorry, I don't understand what you mean .
> If it is about proposals to add some background image (ie wallpaper), 
> then it's just some painting on a broken wall, so it's useless.

Your judgement, not everyone's. 
> 
> > - announce it?
> 
> No !
> 
> > - start other things?
> > - left it all?
> 
> I propose to mix those 2 points :
>   - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the 
> LO4.1 start center
> - start a new process to design a new new start center :
> - involve devs, QA team, a11y team

The Design and UX team does involve developers already

> - ask some users (specially from MIMO [3])

MIMO can join this mailing list at anytime. 

> - should enhance the current start center or create a new one ?

This is a Free Software project. You can't really stop people from
doing what they want and like, and we are a community. 

> - clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated by 
> every team

No. It needs validation by the development team for feasibility,
marketing; perhaps NLC if they find something problematic. But asking
each and everyone will not work because you will never reach 100%
agreement. And FWIW I had my share of disagreements with this team. 

> - only then, start to implement it
> 
> It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a physical 
> product, a building...).

We don't build a product, we build a community. If you want to build a
product, please talk to MS Office, they're pretty good at that. 

> 
> The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot
> himself in the foot :
> - don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4])

I don't think so, but I assume you know Henry Ford's famous sentence:
"if I were to listen to my customers I'd still be selling horse
carriages". 

> - no roadmap (Charles clearly

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Michel Renon]

Hi,

This thread makes me wake up from my silence for few months.
I've already given up on working in the design team, because it's 
useless, but I wanted to express some comments and provide a clear 
answer to K-J.


Thanks to Mateusz Zasuwik for his strong feedback !
But I see that there is no real reactions.

Le 24/10/2013 13:06, K-J LibreOffice a écrit :

Hi Kendy, Mirek, *,
Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky:

[...]


Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-)

I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome
information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time
experience than a 'no recent documents found'...

Sorry for not being clear in my request :-(


What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in discussion.



First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a 
huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design 
process :
- a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies, 
validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just "It would be useful to 
present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more 
fancy stuff." [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part) are the 
same.


- a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX

- the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely 
improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread, you 
can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of July, half 
time of GSOC.


- he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no blueprint...)

- at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX brings 
lot of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y.





Do we
- use the proposal Mateusz gave us?


While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations.
However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly 
propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a 
graphist (not a UX designer).



- make any proposal of a sc-"wallpaper"?


Sorry, I don't understand what you mean .
If it is about proposals to add some background image (ie wallpaper), 
then it's just some painting on a broken wall, so it's useless.



- announce it?


No !


- start other things?
- left it all?


I propose to mix those 2 points :
 - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the 
LO4.1 start center

- start a new process to design a new new start center :
   - involve devs, QA team, a11y team
   - ask some users (specially from MIMO [3])
   - should enhance the current start center or create a new one ?
   - clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated by 
every team

   - only then, start to implement it

It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a physical 
product, a building...).


The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot himself 
in the foot :

- don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4])
- no roadmap (Charles clearly said that [5])
- incoherent UI/UX [6][7]
- schizophrenic behavior in design team [8]
- ship unfinished/undesigned features (template manager for LO4.1, and 
today the start center)


All this make me feel desperate about LibreOffice. Really. And the facts 
are here :

http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/10/20/2310240/forrester-research-shows-steep-decline-in-free-office-suite-stats

As most users start switching to online and mobile version, there is no 
free office suite to compete GDocs or Office365 or Office for 
iOS/android. (where is LibreOfficeOnLine ? it would have been one answer).


Now back to my silence for a long time.

Regards,

Michel Renon



[1] 
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/GSoC/Ideas#Use_Widget_Layout_for_the_Start_Center


[2] 
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2013-July/002218.html


[3] MIMO is related to some french administrations that are users of LO.
You can ask Arnaud Versini (dev/qa team) who knows some of them.

[4] 
http://www.dgsiegel.net/news/2013_07_27-on_why_removing_features_makes_people_unhappy

The last paragraph is abysmal :
"and since i understand why people react this way, i can smilingly fall 
back in my chair and enjoy reading mean comments with a bag of popcorn."



[5]
http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/06/03/making-sense-of-the-new-features-in-libreoffice-4-1/ 
:
"When it comes to the reliance of Java, there does not seem to be a 
master plan either. To be honest, we at LibreOffice do not really like 
master plans. Why? Because we know that a true Free and Open Source 
Software project works through its community, and a diverse community of 
contributors simply has a diverse set of interests otherwise known as 
“itches to scratch”. Therefore we don’t tell contributors to develop 
this or that. Patches are submitted and unless they break stuff, do not 
work with the existing codebase or simply suck, we accept them. That’s 

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi Kendy,
Sorry for the late reply.

On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Jan Holesovsky  wrote:

> Hi Mirek,
>
> Mirek M. píše v Ne 13. 10. 2013 v 18:05 +0200:
>
> > > Oh, when I noticed Kendy's mail I thought about something more like
> that:
> > > https://wiki.**
> documentfoundation.org/File:**Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-**
> > > 1600px.png<
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-1600px.png
> >
> > >
> > > A jpeg which can be changed by user like the personas so that even
> > > companies can replace it with their logo or so.
> >
> >
> > Given that this picture would appear only if no document has been
> opened, I
> > don't see the use of allowing customization of the upfront graphic. (That
> > would just encourage people NOT to open any documents -- that's not what
> we
> > want.) I'd also like to avoid fancy graphics, as it'd be a stark
> difference
> > to go from no recent files with a fancy graphic to a single thumbnail of
> a
> > recent file and the rest of the window blank and, as per our minimalism
> > principle, I'd like to keep our UI as simple as possible.
> >
> > As I understand it, it's not a wallpaper Kendy's looking for, but rather
> an
> > indicator that there are no recent files to display.
> >
> > Care to confirm, Kendy?
>
> Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-)
>
> I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome
> information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time
> experience than a 'no recent documents found'...
>

What do you think about something like
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/3/38/Mirek2-start.png ?

On another note, I have some feedback about the dialog:
1) Icons should be sized based on the global icon size setting. If that's
impossible, large icons should be used. (BTW, it'd be great if it could use
icons from the cmd directory. The icons that are not in there -- I'm
thinking the icons for the individual modules, correct me if I'm wrong --
should be added there and should be adjusted to the icon size standard for
other toolbar icons in the set.)
2) Icons should have standard layout. (I ripped off the layout in my mockup
from gedit, but I'm sure there are official Gnome guidelines somewhere.)
3) It would be excellent if the dialog kept a size separate from the main
module windows (i.e. if it didn't transform into module windows). Unlike
those windows, the dialog is well-suited for small sizes.
4) Despite my wireframe, I'm now thinking that the best place for the
toolbar would be the bottom. The dialog is currently too top-heavy.
5) The tabs look messy -- the active tab has a light gray 1px line on the
bottom that shouldn't be there, and the inactive tabs should be separated
from the thumbnail area by a 1px border. This applies to the tab widget in
general.
6) As I said to you before, it'd be great if the toolbar contents could
adapt to the window size, but I understand if that's impossible to do.
7) As I also said before, I'd love to get rid of the menu bar in that
window, possibly replacing it with a gear menu at the end of the toolbar
(or not replacing it at all).

>
> Sorry for not being clear in my request :-(
>
> Thank you in advance,
> Kendy
>
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[K-J LibreOffice]

Hi Kendy, Mirek, *,
Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky:

[...]


Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-)

I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome
information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time
experience than a 'no recent documents found'...

Sorry for not being clear in my request :-(


What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in discussion.

Do we
- use the proposal Mateusz gave us?
- make any proposal of a sc-"wallpaper"?
- announce it?
- start other things?
- left it all?



--
Grüße
k-j

Member of TheDocumentFoundation
http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/
http://de.libreoffice.org
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mateusz Zasuwik]

Hey

Sorry, but he refused and pointed out that welcome sign is in lower left
corner. I know that is not what you exactly expected, but it's only thing
we have. Maybe he just doesn't have an idea for appropriate performance
your concept? I will try to persuade him to take part in others tasks.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Mateusz,

Mateusz Zasuwik píše v Út 15. 10. 2013 v 13:28 +0200:

> >  Again - thanks for the mockup, I like it.  The only missing piece (and
> >> that was what I was searching for in the first place) was what to show
> >> in case there are no recent documents in the left part of your mockup -
> >> can you please provide such a mockup too?
> >
> >
> > I asked him for new concept but now he is away so please be patient.
> 
> It is his work. What do you think?
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/KWpS7tu.jpg 

Looks good :-) - just I'd myself would prefer some kind of welcome
message or welcome graphics (without text is preferred, as that makes
that easier from translation point of view) that was mentioned elsewhere
in the thread, over a sterile 'No recent documents'.  Do you think your
friend could try something in that lines too?

Thanks so much,
Kendy


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mateusz Zasuwik]

2013/10/15 Mateusz Zasuwik 

>  Again - thanks for the mockup, I like it.  The only missing piece (and
>> that was what I was searching for in the first place) was what to show
>> in case there are no recent documents in the left part of your mockup -
>> can you please provide such a mockup too?
>
>
> I asked him for new concept but now he is away so please be patient.
>


It is his work. What do you think?

http://i.imgur.com/KWpS7tu.jpg 

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mateusz Zasuwik]

>
> Again - thanks for the mockup, I like it.  The only missing piece (and
> that was what I was searching for in the first place) was what to show
> in case there are no recent documents in the left part of your mockup -
> can you please provide such a mockup too?


I asked him for new concept but now he is away so please be patient.

So what about with the easiest solution?

http://i.imgur.com/tt34Dg7.png

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Michael Meeks]

On Tue, 2013-10-15 at 00:33 +0200, Cor Nouws wrote:
> Mateusz Zasuwik wrote (14-10-13 23:01)
> > Guys, are you serious? Currently Start Center for LO 4.2 is horrible! Is

I rather imagine this was done by a GSOC student based on a design
provided by the UX team :-) if the result is horrible, I'd want to know
how closely it matches the design provided. It is rather expensive
chopping and changing this stuff around continually - drawing some new
pixels takes a few minutes, re-writing, testing, validating,
translating, delivering the new code takes man weeks.

Anyhow - this IIRC was Kendy's baby, I'd CC him on any discussion (if
you can maintain that CC) :-)

ATB,

Michael.

> It is when empty. Therefore the request from Kendy for something else.
> 
> > here any guy from UX Team? My friend is professional designer and when I
> > showed him new LibreOffice, he ask "what is purpose of these small icons?"
> 
> Yep...
> 
> > Please reject this awful interface and do something more attractive and
> > intuitive!
> >
> > I asked him for better mockup and he did this.
> >
> > http://i.imgur.com/iJcSVxU.jpg
> 
> +1
> 
> And I think it's usefull too for a next step, the file menu!
> 
> Michael, something intersting?


-- 
 michael.me...@collabora.com  <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Mateusz,

Mateusz Zasuwik píše v Po 14. 10. 2013 v 23:01 +0200:

> I asked him for better mockup and he did this.
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/iJcSVxU.jpg

Beautiful - thanks for this.  This is of course easily possible to do,
if the Design team consensus is that it should look this way.  The best
is if you change it yourself in glade, and provide us with the
resulting .ui file - try

glade share/config/soffice.cfg/sfx/ui/startcenter.ui

do the changes, and restart LibreOffice.  You should immediately see
that.

The next time please omit the pejorative parts of your mail - we have
provided the snapshots & merged it to master early exactly in order to
be able to have feedback in time before the feature freeze, so that we
still have time to make it perfect for 4.2 :-)

Again - thanks for the mockup, I like it.  The only missing piece (and
that was what I was searching for in the first place) was what to show
in case there are no recent documents in the left part of your mockup -
can you please provide such a mockup too?

Thank you,
Kendy


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Mirek,

Mirek M. píše v Ne 13. 10. 2013 v 18:05 +0200:

> > Oh, when I noticed Kendy's mail I thought about something more like that:
> > https://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/File:**Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-**
> > 1600px.png
> >
> > A jpeg which can be changed by user like the personas so that even
> > companies can replace it with their logo or so.
> 
> 
> Given that this picture would appear only if no document has been opened, I
> don't see the use of allowing customization of the upfront graphic. (That
> would just encourage people NOT to open any documents -- that's not what we
> want.) I'd also like to avoid fancy graphics, as it'd be a stark difference
> to go from no recent files with a fancy graphic to a single thumbnail of a
> recent file and the rest of the window blank and, as per our minimalism
> principle, I'd like to keep our UI as simple as possible.
> 
> As I understand it, it's not a wallpaper Kendy's looking for, but rather an
> indicator that there are no recent files to display.
> 
> Care to confirm, Kendy?

Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-)

I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome
information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time
experience than a 'no recent documents found'...

Sorry for not being clear in my request :-(

Thank you in advance,
Kendy


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Jean-Baptiste Faure]

Hi all,

Le 14/10/2013 23:01, Mateusz Zasuwik a écrit :
> Hey
> 
> Guys, are you serious? Currently Start Center for LO 4.2 is horrible! Is
> here any guy from UX Team? My friend is professional designer and when I
> showed him new LibreOffice, he ask "what is purpose of these small icons?"
> 
> Please reject this awful interface and do something more attractive and
> intuitive!

I do not dislike the current global design of the StartCenter. I think
it will be usable if several technical and UX problems are solved:

1/ keyboard navigation through recent used files should be easier:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70449

2/ make the module icons more visible and understandable, give them a
bigger size:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70460

3/ repair the thumbnails generator in the master :
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70428

Best regards.
JBF

-- 
Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Cor Nouws]

Jan Holesovsky wrote (10-10-13 11:40)


It would be great to provide default graphics for the case there is no
recent document yet - can you please start the call for designs & come
up with something beautiful & helpful that we could use inside the huge
white area? :-)


Looks like a lovely opportunity to have some basic guide/first 
steps/welcome linked from that place with some graphics/placeholders 
(documentation front pages).

A great welcome for the user when starting for the first time!


--
 - Cor Nouws
 - http://nl.libreoffice.org
 - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Cor Nouws]

Mateusz Zasuwik wrote (14-10-13 23:01)
\

Guys, are you serious? Currently Start Center for LO 4.2 is horrible! Is


It is when empty.
Therefore the request from Kendy for something else.


here any guy from UX Team? My friend is professional designer and when I
showed him new LibreOffice, he ask "what is purpose of these small icons?"


Yep...


Please reject this awful interface and do something more attractive and
intuitive!

I asked him for better mockup and he did this.

http://i.imgur.com/iJcSVxU.jpg


+1

And I think it's usefull too for a next step, the file menu!

Michael, something intersting?

Cheers,
Cor

--
 - Cor Nouws
 - http://nl.libreoffice.org
 - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mateusz Zasuwik]

2013/10/14 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos 

> Relax, take it easy. The screenshot is OBVIOUSLY not the final look.
> Thanks for your mock-up, though: I like it :-)
>


Not so obvious for me. Actually I don't understand why the first version of
new Start Center is so unintuitive and ugly . There should be some
guidelines for developer programming interface.

If first alpha is coming with the beginning of month, will developers make
with it?

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Jonathan Aquilina]

I have to say i really like it and its very similar to that of microsoft
office and what microsoft works used to be.


On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 11:01 PM, Mateusz Zasuwik wrote:

> Hey
>
> Guys, are you serious? Currently Start Center for LO 4.2 is horrible! Is
> here any guy from UX Team? My friend is professional designer and when I
> showed him new LibreOffice, he ask "what is purpose of these small icons?"
>
> Please reject this awful interface and do something more attractive and
> intuitive!
>
> I asked him for better mockup and he did this.
>
> http://i.imgur.com/iJcSVxU.jpg
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>


-- 
Jonathan Aquilina

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mateusz Zasuwik]

Hey

Guys, are you serious? Currently Start Center for LO 4.2 is horrible! Is
here any guy from UX Team? My friend is professional designer and when I
showed him new LibreOffice, he ask "what is purpose of these small icons?"

Please reject this awful interface and do something more attractive and
intuitive!

I asked him for better mockup and he did this.

http://i.imgur.com/iJcSVxU.jpg

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[klaus-jürgen weghorn ol]

Hi Mirek, Kendy, *,
Am 13.10.2013 18:05, schrieb Mirek M.:

[...]


Given that this picture would appear only if no document has been opened, I
don't see the use of allowing customization of the upfront graphic. (That
would just encourage people NOT to open any documents -- that's not what we
want.) I'd also like to avoid fancy graphics, as it'd be a stark difference
to go from no recent files with a fancy graphic to a single thumbnail of a
recent file and the rest of the window blank and, as per our minimalism
principle, I'd like to keep our UI as simple as possible.

As I understand it, it's not a wallpaper Kendy's looking for, but rather an
indicator that there are no recent files to display.


Ahh, ok, something more like that:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/1/12/Sc42-nrd-v1-1.png

--
Grüße
k-j

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,

On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:23 AM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol <
o...@sophia-louise.de> wrote:

> Hi Mirek, Kendy,
>
> Am 11.10.2013 18:54, schrieb Mirek M.:
>
>  I imagine we could just go with something simple
>> likehttps://github.com/gnome-**design-team/gnome-mockups/raw/**
>> master/documents/documents-**empty.pngor
>> perhaps even a simple label  like the "No label" screen on
>> https://raw.github.com/gnome-**design-team/gnome-mockups/**
>> master/nautilus/search-wires.**png
>> .
>> (If we go for the former, we should probably use the same icon, given that
>> our new icon sets will be extensions of Gnome's.)
>> What do you think?
>>
>
>
> Oh, when I noticed Kendy's mail I thought about something more like that:
> https://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/File:**Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-**
> 1600px.png
>
> A jpeg which can be changed by user like the personas so that even
> companies can replace it with their logo or so.


Given that this picture would appear only if no document has been opened, I
don't see the use of allowing customization of the upfront graphic. (That
would just encourage people NOT to open any documents -- that's not what we
want.) I'd also like to avoid fancy graphics, as it'd be a stark difference
to go from no recent files with a fancy graphic to a single thumbnail of a
recent file and the rest of the window blank and, as per our minimalism
principle, I'd like to keep our UI as simple as possible.

As I understand it, it's not a wallpaper Kendy's looking for, but rather an
indicator that there are no recent files to display.

Care to confirm, Kendy?

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[klaus-jürgen weghorn ol]

Hi Mirek, Kendy,

Am 11.10.2013 18:54, schrieb Mirek M.:

I imagine we could just go with something simple
likehttps://github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/raw/master/documents/documents-empty.pngor
perhaps even a simple label  like the "No label" screen on
https://raw.github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/master/nautilus/search-wires.png
.
(If we go for the former, we should probably use the same icon, given that
our new icon sets will be extensions of Gnome's.)
What do you think?



Oh, when I noticed Kendy's mail I thought about something more like that:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-1600px.png

A jpeg which can be changed by user like the personas so that even 
companies can replace it with their logo or so.



Should we start an announce on Facebook and G+?

--
Grüße
k-j

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

I imagine we could just go with something simple
likehttps://github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/raw/master/documents/documents-empty.pngor
perhaps even a simple label like the "No label" screen on
https://raw.github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/master/nautilus/search-wires.png
.
(If we go for the former, we should probably use the same icon, given that
our new icon sets will be extensions of Gnome's.)
What do you think?

On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Jan Holesovsky  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Maybe you have noticed in the daily builds the new Startcenter that
> LibreOffice 4.2 will come up with.  It is focused on improving the user
> experience based on the assumption that the user very probably wants to
> edit documents he/she has edited in the past.
>
> But there is a problem - when they open LibreOffice for the first time,
> there is no recent document, and the Startcenter looks just too empty;
> see here:
>
> http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter.png
>
> It would be great to provide default graphics for the case there is no
> recent document yet - can you please start the call for designs & come
> up with something beautiful & helpful that we could use inside the huge
> white area? :-)
>
> It should be resizable, or able to survive resizing.  I believe we
> should be able to get some text into it too, but hypertext might be
> problematic I'm afraid.
>
> Other than that - looking forward to the designs! :-)  It would be
> awesome to have the designs for Alpha1, in case some programming is
> necessary; so the deadline is 4th November:
>
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.2#4.2.0_release
>
> Thank you in advance,
> Kendy
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi,

Maybe you have noticed in the daily builds the new Startcenter that
LibreOffice 4.2 will come up with.  It is focused on improving the user
experience based on the assumption that the user very probably wants to
edit documents he/she has edited in the past.

But there is a problem - when they open LibreOffice for the first time,
there is no recent document, and the Startcenter looks just too empty;
see here:

http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter.png

It would be great to provide default graphics for the case there is no
recent document yet - can you please start the call for designs & come
up with something beautiful & helpful that we could use inside the huge
white area? :-)

It should be resizable, or able to survive resizing.  I believe we
should be able to get some text into it too, but hypertext might be
problematic I'm afraid.

Other than that - looking forward to the designs! :-)  It would be
awesome to have the designs for Alpha1, in case some programming is
necessary; so the deadline is 4th November:

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.2#4.2.0_release

Thank you in advance,
Kendy


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-design] welcome screen and about of javier nisa

[Javier Nisa - Lexnos Corporation]

Hi!

My proposals of welcome screen and about ;) to complete the proposals.

welcome http://ubuntuone.com/0Wsq1gA0tTBDoDc2G1LiHI and 
http://ubuntuone.com/0O2MBHars1MyTOYG3cCbaC


and about http://ubuntuone.com/35SeUEc2bZGC00EoOtQSt5 and 
http://ubuntuone.com/39QskHOTGIwXjmI0oWoD4P


For wiki, thanks :)

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome

[klaus-jürgen weghorn ol]

Hi Budislav,
Am 14.06.2011 01:14, schrieb Budislav Stepanov:

I am student of Graphic Designs on University of Novi Sad, part of European
University Network, I  found this place where I think that i can show my
abilities. Primarly I am web designer, but this includes almost all kind of
graphic on web or softwere, and the user interface in general.I am willing
to help in the further development :)


Welcome here.

You can inform yourself at our wiki pages and here on ml. There are many 
open issues on the sectors you named above.

As start page have a look:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design

The work will come if you want some ;-).

But if you want to do something now as a webdesigner please have a look 
at this threads belonging to our new Extension website:


extension website:
http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/msg04991.html
extension logo:
http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg02184.html


--
Grüße
k-j

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome!

[Carlos Jenkins]

Hi everyone,

Carlos Jenkins here :D
>From Drupal Development Team

Kind regards

-- 
http://www.cjenkins.net/
http://csl-tec.softwarelibrecr.org/

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome!

[John Baer]

John Baer
Ubuntu Community
Open source advocate

:-)

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Christoph Noack wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> Welcome on our brand new list ... I'm happy to have you all here and to
> continue to discuss with you all the thrilling ideas to make LibO (every
> aspect of it - software, website, ...) more usable, and more visually
> pleasing.
>
> But, who are "you"? My question to "you" - who is already subscribed to
> this list? If we miss some people, we should promote this new mailing
> list to get all the helping hands we'll need in the next time :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
> design+h...@libreoffice.org
> List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
>
>

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome!

[Christoph Noack]

Hi all!

I published the blog posting:
http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/11/its-sometimes-all-about-design.html

Good night,
Christoph

Am Dienstag, den 23.11.2010, 23:42 +0100 schrieb Christoph Noack:
> I planned to write a blog post concerning the new list ... although we
> may then loose one of the best characteristics of this new list:
> having
> manageable traffic ;-) 


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome!

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Bernhard, hi Marc, all!

I planned to write a blog post concerning the new list ... although we
may then loose one of the best characteristics of this new list: having
manageable traffic ;-)

@ Mirek: Thanks for your contributions. I'm looking forward to have you
back ... we really miss some UX talents, the guys at the development
lists do have more and more requests with regard to available
functionality.

Cheers,
Christoph

Am Dienstag, den 23.11.2010, 22:30 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
> If people are reading the relevant threads on the marketing list, they
> should be aware. 


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome!

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Marc,

Marc Paré schrieb:

Le 2010-11-22 17:34, Christoph Noack a écrit :

[...] who is already subscribed to
this list? If we miss some people, we should promote this new mailing
list to get all the helping hands we'll need in the next time :-)

> [...]

Is it me or does this list seem too sparse? Maybe some of the people on
the marketing mailist are not really aware of the division of roles?


If people are reading the relevant threads on the marketing list, they 
should be aware.

Or
is it that there are really only these members? Maybe make another
announcement on the marketing mailist?


I'd wait another few days - and we can point any new design thread on 
the marketing list here.


The existing threads over there shouldn't move IMHO, because the 
information contained there should stay together.


Best regards

Bernhard

PS: I didn't add my "Hi, I'm here too" to this thread because I hoped 
you did already know... ;-)


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome!

[Marc Paré]

Le 2010-11-22 17:34, Christoph Noack a écrit :

Hi all!

Welcome on our brand new list ... I'm happy to have you all here and to
continue to discuss with you all the thrilling ideas to make LibO (every
aspect of it - software, website, ...) more usable, and more visually
pleasing.

But, who are "you"? My question to "you" - who is already subscribed to
this list? If we miss some people, we should promote this new mailing
list to get all the helping hands we'll need in the next time :-)

Cheers,
Christoph


Is it me or does this list seem too sparse? Maybe some of the people on 
the marketing mailist are not really aware of the division of roles? Or 
is it that there are really only these members? Maybe make another 
announcement on the marketing mailist?


Marc

--
Marc Paré
http://www.parEntreprise.com


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome!

[Mirek M.]

Hi everyone,
I'm subscribed, but it looks like I won't have much time to contribute in
the coming weeks.
Still, I'm really looking forward to at least reading some of the spirited
discussions that'll take place on here.
:)

2010/11/22 Christoph Noack 

> Hi all!
>
> Welcome on our brand new list ... I'm happy to have you all here and to
> continue to discuss with you all the thrilling ideas to make LibO (every
> aspect of it - software, website, ...) more usable, and more visually
> pleasing.
>
> But, who are "you"? My question to "you" - who is already subscribed to
> this list? If we miss some people, we should promote this new mailing
> list to get all the helping hands we'll need in the next time :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
> design+h...@libreoffice.org
> List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
>
>


-- 

Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
A: http://five.sentenc.es

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome!

[Michel RENON]

Hi,

Le 22/11/10 23:34, Christoph Noack a écrit :

Hi all!

Welcome on our brand new list ... I'm happy to have you all here and to
continue to discuss with you all the thrilling ideas to make LibO (every
aspect of it - software, website, ...) more usable, and more visually
pleasing.

But, who are "you"? My question to "you" - who is already subscribed to
this list? If we miss some people, we should promote this new mailing
list to get all the helping hands we'll need in the next time :-)


I'm Michel.
I'm an OpenOffice user for 5 years (on Mac OS & Ubuntu).
I've been coding for 20 years : pascal, C and c++ on Mac OS, database, 
php, and now python (OpenERP).
Recently, I also became a teacher for adults (teaching to use free 
software). And I've always been interested in creating ergonomic software.
I made a proposal for the Renaissance project (but due to time 
constraints, it was not complete : I should work again on it !)

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Michel_Renon

I won't have a lot of time to code for LibreOffice, but I would like to 
share design ideas.


In his last blog entry [1], Charles said that parts of the Renaissance 
project will be integrated into LibreOffice. But what about the "default 
settings" subproject [2] ? I find it very important.


Thanks,

Michel



[1] 
http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2010/11/21/the-renaissance-of-the-renaissance-project/


[2] 
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Improving_OOo_Default_Settings




--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome!

[Graham Lauder]

On Tuesday 23 November 2010 11:34:05 Christoph Noack wrote:
> Hi all!
> 
> Welcome on our brand new list ... I'm happy to have you all here and to
> continue to discuss with you all the thrilling ideas to make LibO (every
> aspect of it - software, website, ...) more usable, and more visually
> pleasing.
> 
> But, who are "you"? My question to "you" - who is already subscribed to
> this list? If we miss some people, we should promote this new mailing
> list to get all the helping hands we'll need in the next time :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> Christoph


Tena koe


GL

Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html

INGOTs Moderator New Zealand
www.theingots.org.nz


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome!

[Marc Paré]

Le 2010-11-22 17:34, Christoph Noack a écrit :

Hi all!

Welcome on our brand new list ... I'm happy to have you all here and to
continue to discuss with you all the thrilling ideas to make LibO (every
aspect of it - software, website, ...) more usable, and more visually
pleasing.

But, who are "you"? My question to "you" - who is already subscribed to
this list? If we miss some people, we should promote this new mailing
list to get all the helping hands we'll need in the next time :-)

Cheers,
Christoph



Bonjour! :-)

--
Marc Paré
http://www.parEntreprise.com


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome!

[Thorsten Wilms]

On Mon, 2010-11-22 at 23:34 +0100, Christoph Noack wrote:

> But, who are "you"? My question to "you" - who is already subscribed to
> this list?

\o


-- 
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome!

[Ron Faile]

Hi Christoph & Michael,

This promises to be an exciting list to be in on. Look forward to 
working with you all.


A little about me...I've been helping out with the documentation and 
gearing it to LibO. I've also put together some ideas about the UI. You 
can find them here: 
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Default_UI_Improvements#Default_UI_Improvements


Most of the items listed, including what's in the UI Improvements file, 
are things that can be done easily and I think would improve the users 
experience.


Ron

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome!

[Michael Wheatland]

Hello world

Michael Wheatland

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***

[libreoffice-design] Welcome!

[Christoph Noack]

Hi all!

Welcome on our brand new list ... I'm happy to have you all here and to
continue to discuss with you all the thrilling ideas to make LibO (every
aspect of it - software, website, ...) more usable, and more visually
pleasing.

But, who are "you"? My question to "you" - who is already subscribed to
this list? If we miss some people, we should promote this new mailing
list to get all the helping hands we'll need in the next time :-)

Cheers,
Christoph


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org
List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/design/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***