RE: Trouble child OpenOffice

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

> -Original Message-
> From: Andy Wenk [mailto:andyw...@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 14:26
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Trouble child OpenOffice
> 
> Hi Raphael,
> 
> this is really sad to hear. The gap between so many users and a
> vanishing community developers wise is really strange. So the question
> comes to mind what the reasons are for this situation:
> 
> * are there problems in the community - especially among the developers?
> * is OpenOffice not competitive anymore compared to Microsoft Office?
> * is OpenOffice not competitive anymore compared to Google Docs and
> similar tools?
> * are the download numbers correct?
[orcmid] 

>From 2017-01-01 to 2017-03-31, the first quarter of 2017, Apache OpenOffice 
>4.1.3 was downloaded from the SourceForge mirrors over 9 million times.

You can see the distribution by platform at 


> * do you have an idea about the acceptance of OpenOffice in the wide
> world (marketing. press and so on)?
[orcmid] 

You can see the distribution by language and nation (roughly based on the 
origin of the download request).

> 
> I am quite sure you already asked and discussed these questions. But
> maybe they trigger some in depth discussions to better understand the
> “why”
> 
> I wish you all the best with the project and hope, that it will move on.
> 
> Andy
> --
> Andy Wenk
> Hamburg - Germany
> RockIt!
> 
> GPG public key:
> http://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get=0x45D3565377F93D29
> 
> 
> 
> > On 19. Apr 2017, at 22:19, Raphael Bircher 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi people
> >
> > I want to raise a question here. I know, we have to solve our problems
> our self, but maybe here are people with ideas. OpenOffice has a big
> community problem. The community was simply melted away in the last
> year. We have at the moment no Company who offer devs. And the rest of
> the community fights the absolutely urgent issues. There was already a
> discussion about retirement, it was refused. But this doesn't mean we
> are out of the danger zone.
> >
> > The sweet part of this story is our user base. We have 100'000
> Downloads EVERY single DAY. I mean, this is crazy. We have really loyal
> users. We get also frequently messages from user who just want to say
> "thank you".
> >
> > The sad thing about this is, they have actually no chance to do
> something for the program. They are looked out. Remember, they are
> normal users, they are no developers. They are typically private users
> or small companies. But imagine what happened if only a small part of
> our users pay 20$.
> >
> > We really need devs and we need skilled one, because OpenOffice is
> challenging for programmers. Companies with a load of money has a easy
> way to influence an Apache project. Simply pay a developer, that's it.
> But people without big pocket are simply looked out. (if they have no
> programmer skills) That's not fair!
> >
> > How to solve this problem? Thanks a load.
> >
> > Regards Raphael
> >
> > --
> > My introduction https://youtu.be/Ln4vly5sxYU
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
> 
> 
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RE: Vetoes for New Committers??

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

> -Original Message-
> From: Marvin Humphrey [mailto:mar...@rectangular.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 05:13
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Vetoes for New Committers??
> 
[ ... ]
> 
> Most PMCs do not draft their own rules, and just use "at least 3 +1
> with no vetoes". CouchDB's majority-rule for committers is unusual. I
> hope that CouchDB's bylaws are not adopted as a template for others,
> as I believe that the rule on committer voting is counter to an
> important institutional tradition in Apache governance.
> 
[ ... ]
[orcmid] 

I think there are common misunderstandings about where vetoes are allowed (as 
opposed to No votes that need to be addressed as part of consensus-seeking and 
community cultivation).

My understanding is that votes on *procedural*matters* have no vetoes by 
default, but the effort to achieve consensus is always important in the 
presence of Nays.  Treating nays as vetoes is often inappropriate because it 
admits a form of bull-dozing in the negative.  Note that lazy consensus is a 
form of unanimous consent, with no explicit requirement for 3 +1s;  here an 
objection is not a veto since lazy consensus is specifically an if-no-objection 
proposal and objections are invited.

The only firm veto seems to be on commits.  And, of course, the 3 +1s majority 
is *specifically* for eligible votes on release candidates (and which cannot be 
vetoed).

The veto business (and the 3 +1s) seem to leak all over PMC practice without 
ever being made an explicit policy as some sort of urban legend.  The fact that 
a podling mentor can veto actions (and also claim the myths as policy) is 
probably confusing in that regard (if that is still the IPMC practice).

 - Dennis


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RE: Apache and Java

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I think, if you look at the DRAT diagrams that Chris Mattmann provided 
up-thread, there is another factor that can figure into the someone asking the 
original question.

If someone, especially a student or recent-graduate, has skills in a particular 
development and language approach, and is looking for a project where they 
might be able to contribute (and do some open-source resume building), having 
Java chops unlocks pay-dirt here.  Also, ASF projects are friendly to new 
contributors (and may support GSOC proposals).  

Hence, some of the network effect.  

It would be interesting to know what contrast there might be in something like 
the DRAT analysis of (non-ASF-mirror) GitHub repositories for project that use 
ALv2 or a Category A license.  

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: Mohammad Noureldin [mailto:nour.moham...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2017 13:23
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Apache and Java
[ ... ]
> 
> @Spaghetti Roulette: I am wondering why did this confuse you in the
> first
> place ? Do you have an idea that you would like to bring to ASF that is
> implemented in Java ?
> 
[ ... ]


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RE: What happened to the Apache Labs

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

> -Original Message-
> From: Raphael Bircher [mailto:rbircherapa...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2017 13:01
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: What happened to the to the Apache Labs
> 
> Hi all
> 
> I looked at the apache Labs from time to time, and I see nearly no
> activity there. If I got it right, the Apache Labs should be a starting
> point for new software projects from ASF Committer. I find this a good
> idea, and wonder why it's so calm there. I would have interests in the
> lab, because I have a project who would fit in.
[orcmid] 

I can't answer about the quiet.  

I suggest you review the bylaws at .

Three factors stand out:

 1. It is not permissible to create releases from a lab.
 2. There is sharing of a single SVN repository, 
.
 3. The Labs PMC decides on the state of a lab and whether it is time to take 
it into the incubator or elsewhere.

Also, there appears to be a single JIRA project, LABS, with an [informal?] 
naming technique to identify individual-lab issues.

Raphael, I'm curious how that contrasts with creating a public GitHub project 
providing open-source code under the Apache License 2.0 and manages its 
codebase in compliance with what the ASF requires of a project (e.g., NOTICE 
files and acceptable licenses on dependencies).

 - Dennis



> 
> Regards Raphael
> 
> --
> Mein Blog: https://raphaelbircher.blogspot.ch
> 
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RE: ASF Committers Diversity Survey in Progress

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

My one concern was providing credentials to a non-Apache site.  Should I be 
worried about that?  (I just changed my Apache password just in case.)

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: Sharan Foga [mailto:sha...@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 03:19
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: ASF Committers Diversity Survey in Progress
> 
> Hi Everyone
> 
> A quick note to let everyone know that the ASF Committer Diversity
> Survey is now running and in progress. The email and survey link was
> sent out the committers mailing list yesterday (thanks very to the Infra
> team for your help with getting that done!)
> 
> The survey will be open until 11th December and hope that we'll get lots
> of responses and feedback from our committers.
> 
> Thank you to everyone who has already responded.
> 
> Thanks
> Sharan
> 
> -
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RE: Task #5c18cd0e: Create Twitter list of all projects

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I'm not certain what I am responding to here.  Can we see what is on the list 
now and what information is being asked for?

Meanwhile, there is .

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: Alexander Bezzubov [mailto:b...@apache.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 07:44
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Task #5c18cd0e: Create Twitter list of all projects
> 
> Please feel free to add https://twitter.com/ApacheZeppelin as well
> 
> ---
> Alex
> 
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 9:31 PM, Francesco Chicchiriccò
>  > wrote:
> 
> > And https://twitter.com/syncopeidm
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Regards.
> >
> >
> > On 16/08/2016 14:24, Daniel Gruno wrote:
> >
> >> Do also add https://twitter.com/emailforponies :)
> >>
> >> With regards,
> >> Daniel.
> >>
> >> On 08/16/2016 02:12 PM, Owen O'Malley wrote:
> >>
> >>> Please add https://twitter.com/apacheorc
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Owen
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 9:09 PM, Patricio Ramirez <
> >>> patricio.rami...@virtualskies.com.ar> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hello,
> 
>  I want to help out with this task.
>  Let me know how to do it.
> 
>  Regards
> 
> 
>  *Project: *community
>  *Created by:* rbo...@apache.org
>  *Task added: *Thu Feb 18 2016
>  *Difficulty: * Beginner - This is an easy task that anyone can get
>  started
>  on
>  *Task type:* Marketing and Publicity
>  *Additional information:* https://twitter.com/theasf
> 
>  Accumulate all of the ASF projects that have Twitter accounts, and
>  create a
>  Twitter List, attached to @theASF, of these projects.
> 
>  * Create doc to track these (in svn?) and who is responsible for
> each
>  * Work with Sally to create the initial list and keep it updated
>  * Possibly create discussion list where sample/recommended tweets
> can be
>  pushed out to the people responsible for these accounts
> 
> 
>  How to help:
> 
>  If you want to help with this task, please get in touch with the
> project
>  at: dev@community.apache.org
>    20Create%20Twitter%20list%20of%20all%20projects=I%
>  20would%20like%20to%20help%20out%20with%20the%20task%
>  20listed%20at%20https%3A//helpwanted.apache.org/task.html%3F
>  5c18cd0e%0A%0A
> 
>  You should also check out the additional information URL (if such
> is
>  provided above) for more information.
> 
> >>>
> > --
> > Francesco Chicchiriccò
> >
> > Tirasa - Open Source Excellence
> > http://www.tirasa.net/
> >
> > Involved at The Apache Software Foundation:
> > member, Syncope PMC chair, Cocoon PMC, Olingo PMC,
> > CXF Committer, OpenJPA Committer, PonyMail PPMC
> > http://home.apache.org/~ilgrosso/
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
> >


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RE: Where to report outdated "Welcome to ASF" email template?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

> -Original Message-
> From: Alexandre Rafalovitch [mailto:arafa...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 20:48
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Where to report outdated "Welcome to ASF" email template?
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I just got accepted as a committer to an ASF project (Apache
> Lucene/Solr (Yay!)).
> 
> So, I am getting the welcome emails and trying to follow the
> instructions. And hitting minor issues, which I would like to report.
> Just not sure to where.
[orcmid] 

Who was the sender of the "Welcome to ASF" email?  Have you replied to the 
sender and any CC?

Another way to have someone pursue this is to point it out on 
.

You are correct.  The information you received is outdated.

 - Dennis
> 
> So, for the "Welcome to ASF" email, the most ironic one is
> recommendation to use commun...@apache.org mailing list which looks to
> be closed as of 2014 with this mailing list being the designated
> replacement (which took 15 minutes to figure out).
> 
> Also, it talk about logging into ssh host with username/password, but
> the ssh server seem to only want public key now (next step??).
> Finally, some URLs are now dead.
> 
> I am not sure who is responsible for those mail templates and hoping
> someone on this list will pass this on or gives me a correct address
> to provide feedback to.
> 
> Regards,
> Alex.
[ ... ]


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RE: Unsubscribe trailers

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Tail-gating on this so I mention it somewhere at least.

One problem that I have noticed, and I don't know how systematic it is, is that 
when a post uses HTML formatting, the list robot may not provide the trailer in 
a form that actually has it be visible to a recipient.

This has led, in the past, to users being dissed by other users for not paying 
attention to footers that, in fact, they don't see.  (It's one of those "works 
for me" disconnects.)  

One action I can take is to request that list moderators on projects I support 
provide the level of civility exhibited by Mark Thomas and simply honor 
unsubscribe requests and confirm it to the list.  I will do that too.

I am acting on the practice now.  What the robot/archiver does is beyond me.

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 07:28
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Unsubscribe trailers
> 
> Hi Mark.
> 
> Easy fix for a returning nuisance.
> 
> Kudos!
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Pierre Smits
> 
> ORRTIZ.COM 
> OFBiz based solutions & services
> 
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> 
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Mark Thomas  wrote:
> 
> > On 13/06/2016 15:20, Richard Eckart de Castilho wrote:
> > > That should help many people and avoid these annoying
> > > "please unsubscribe" messages.
> > >
> > > How about turning these footers on for all mailing lists ASF-wide?
> > > Or did you actually do that? ;)
> >
> > I could do that. But I didn't.
> >
> > Generally, infra sets these (or not) based on the request of the
> > community that owns the list.
> >
> > In this case I 'just did it' for this list on the basis that it looked
> > like the right thing to do and if the community disagrees the
> potential
> > harm is minimal and I can undo it just as quickly.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > -- Richard
> > >
> > >> On 13.06.2016, at 16:11, Mark Thomas  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On 13/06/2016 15:03, Mark Thomas wrote:
> >  I have been receiving them for years and you have no unsubscribe
> > button in
> >  the email.
> > >>>
> > >>> There should be a standard footer with the unsubscribe address
> listed.
> > >>> I'll look into that.
> > >>
> > >> If I got the settings right, there should now be a footer below my
> > >> signature with instructions on how to unsubscribe.
> > >>
> > >> Mark
> > >>
> > >> ---
> --
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> > >
> > > 
> -
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> > >
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
> >


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RE: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Sharan,

You might find useful resources and contacts via  as 
well.

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: Sharan Foga [mailto:sharan.f...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 03:45
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?
> 
> Hi All
> 
> Just a quick update. I've sent out an email to the following groups so
> far:
> 
> - Pyladies
> - Phpladies
> - Women Who Code
> - Girls Who Code
> - Black Girls Code
> 
> I'll post any feedback I get. Also if anyone thinks of any other groups
> they'd like me to contact then please let me know.
> 
> Thanks
> Sharan
> 
> On 20/05/16 14:26, Sharan Foga wrote:
> > Thanks very much to everyone for their feedback and support.
> >
> > Rich - I will contact these groups to see what feedback and advice
> > they can give.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Sharan
> >
> > On 20/05/16 14:05, Rich Bowen wrote:
> >> I would suggest that the most constructive thing we could do would be
> to
> >> reach out to pyladies and phpwomen and other similar organizations
> >> and ask
> >> for recommendations and assistance in setting up a similar entity
> here.
> >> On May 19, 2016 11:18, "Sharan Foga"  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi All
> >>>
> >>> I'm interested in finding out how we could encourage more women to
> >>> participate on Apache projects. It's a discussion topic that came up
> >>> last
> >>> week while I was at Apachecon. My understanding is that we don't
> >>> have any
> >>> current strategies in place so I think it could be good to look at
> >>> gathering some ideas about how to tackle the problem and also hear
> >>> about
> >>> any lessons learned from any previous or similar strategies.
> >>>
> >>> What do people think?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Sharan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >

RE: Help Wanted! (it's a title, not a request!)

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I was first attracted by lightweight and non-developer tasks that AOO has 
aplenty.  Folks as how non-developers or inexpert-on-AOO developers can become 
involved.  HW will be very helpful.

A heavyweight conversation is ongoing about AOO builds (and release management, 
lurking in the background).  We can try these too, as significant collaborative 
tasks.  The identification of that can continue at dev@ oo.a.o along with 
observation that HW is up and running and ready for some actual requests.

Regarding sebb's earlier comment.  The "How to Contribute" and related pages at 
openoffice.org are overdue for some dry-dock barnacle-scraping anyhow.  A guide 
on how to use HW for AOO might also be relevant for AOO participants who have 
an HW they want to establish.  And these tasks can surely be HW listed 
themselves [;<).

 - Dennis

PS: Thanks, Jan, for identifying one more candidate for investigation.  
LibreOffice improvements in release engineering are certainly worthy of AOO 
consideration.

> -Original Message-
> From: jan iversen [mailto:jancasacon...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 8, 2016 05:35
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Help Wanted! (it's a title, not a request!)
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad, please excuse any misspellings
> 
> > On 08 Feb 2016, at 14:31, Patricia Shanahan <p...@acm.org> wrote:
> >
> > Maybe OpenOffice should ask for an expert on multi-platform large
> system build tools to consult on selecting one?
> 
> OpenOffice actually have an expert at hand. LibreOffice (fork of
> OpenOffice) has changed the build system into something quite handy
> (even though still complex).
> 
> rgds
> jan i.
> 
> >
> >
> >> On 2/7/2016 2:34 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> >> +1, +1, etc.
> >>
> >> Apache OpenOffice is overflowing with opportunities to make use of
> this.
> >>
> >> I did not notice a way to indicate that a task has been "taken" or is
> completed/withdrawn.
> >>
> >> (I could have missed it.)
> >>
> >> I assume a potential GSoC mini-project could be identified in the
> title or short description, with a link to the JIRA place for further
> details?  The offer of mentoring could be there too.
> >>
> >> Each project could have their own FAQ about general necessities of
> contribution how to prepare/start, by subproject area if needed, tied
> into wherever the project-level widget is displayed.
> >>
> >> The breakdown into areas of contribution is very nice.
> >>
> >>  - Dennis
> >>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: Daniel Gruno [mailto:humbed...@apache.org]
> >>> Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2016 08:23
> >>> To: dev@community.apache.org
> >>> Subject: Re: Help Wanted! (it's a title, not a request!)
> >>>
> >>>> On 02/07/2016 05:13 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> >>>> I like!
> >>>
> >>> Yay! Glad to hear this :)
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> One suggestion that does not add complexity, but just a little bit
> of
> >>>> text. Try to quantify the Difficulty levels. Is "Journeyman" harder
> or
> >>>> easier than "Intermediate"? Similarly, how do "Advanced" and
> "Expert"
> >>>> compare? I suggest fewer Difficulty options, with a one sentence
> >>>> explanation of each.
> >>>
> >>> I picked 5 because 3 sounded like too few (too big a jump between
> >>> them?). There is an icon next to the difficulty level that shows
> which
> >>> 'level' it is, from green (easy) to red (very hard). Maybe I need to
> >>> make that more visible?.
> >>>
> >>> An explanation sounds like a great idea, and we can add that as a
> >>> tooltip in the widget overview and as a line of text in the actual
> task
> >>> details. I can get started on that right away, whereas changing to
> use 3
> >>> levels might take some getting used to for me (and a bit of work to
> >>> rework the existing system down to 3 levels instead of 5).
> >>>
> >>> Or hm, what about a small (?) next to the level which shows you what
> we
> >>> expect this level to signify.?
> >>>
> >>> With regards,
> >>> Daniel.
> >> [ ... ]
> >>

RE: Help Wanted! (it's a title, not a request!)

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I appreciate Ross's concern.  I have a companion one.

Bottom line, I would be very discouraged if manual use were excluded.

 - Dennis

RELATED THOUGHTS 

The greatest source of issues and concerns and also some interest in how to 
help for Apache OpenOffice is end-users and some inexperienced developers.  For 
them, issue trackers are not the first thing thought of and, out of ineptness, 
their efforts are often rebuffed.  

Now, AOO uses bugzilla for worthy historical reasons but I don't think JIRA 
would be that much easier for end-users, especially since the fact that there 
is really only one JIRA there can be very confusing for novices and users 
having an urgent-for-them problem.

These concerns are probably orthogonal to HW (and somewhat for GSoC too).  But 
I think a companion use of HW by a project having a wide variety of tasks with 
quite diverse skill requirements, and an offer of some degree of mentoring is 
very worthwhile.  

I am not objecting to scanning of JIRAs for HW items, although it might be 
better for them to have a help-wanted tag, among others, since one might want 
to slant things appropriate to appearance on HW and have the label affixed with 
some degree of forethought.  



> -Original Message-
> From: Ross Gardler [mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 8, 2016 10:41
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Help Wanted! (it's a title, not a request!)
> 
> This is great, but...
> 
> The success of something like this is not in the tool, it's in the
> content.
> 
> I worry that by requiring projects to enter the data separately to their
> chosen issue tracker we are reducing the chances of this succeeding (and
> it deserves to succeed as a tool). Furthermore, when it comes around to
> GSoC projects across the foundation already mark tasks as "mentor".
> 
> I hear the concern that some projects use Bugzilla, but the majority use
> Jira.
> 
> Can we do imports from Jira, filtered by the "mentor" label?
> 
> Ross
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Daniel Gruno [mailto:humbed...@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, February 8, 2016 3:38 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Help Wanted! (it's a title, not a request!)
> 
> On 02/08/2016 12:36 PM, Maxim Solodovnik wrote:
> > Hello Daniel,
> >
> > Could you please describe a bit how JIRA issues are selected to be
> > displayed?
> > this [1] query return no results :((
> >
> > [1]
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fhelpw
> > anted.apache.org%2flistitems.lua%3fproject%3dopenmeetings=01%7c01
> > %7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c0d06626ee77b454e4b3a08d3307c5fbd%7c7
> > 2f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=yQQSTsTOXuZ5oHv4dAyz1yIOmBCY
> > R49X0zNf3N2r4pQ%3d
> >
> 
> It doesn't quite work that way. The whole issue here is that there is no
> way to uniformly do this via JIRA or BugZilla, as they don't quite have
> these sort of information fields, so this is an 'aside' to it.
> 
> You have to add the tasks by clicking on the 'add/edit tasks' link at
> the top of the front page, and then they'll show up. You can of course
> link to a JIRA ticket inside the task.
> 
> With regards,
> Daniel.
> 
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 4:56 PM, Daniel Gruno 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 02/08/2016 11:53 AM, Francesco Chicchiriccò wrote:
> >>> Just to show my appreciation: +1, looks very cool!
> >>>
> >>> Any idea of when we can start filling it up with real things?
> >>> Thanks.
> >>
> >> I've already started deleting the test entries, so you could start
> >> using it already if you like. I'll remove the warnings from the front
> >> page then
> >> :)
> >>
> >> With regards,
> >> Daniel.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Regards.
> >>>
> >>> On 07/02/2016 17:01, Daniel Gruno wrote:
>  Hi ComDev folks! Ramblings incoming :)
> 
>  As an aside to the 'Guiding volunteers' thread, I was talking with
>  Rich
>  (Bowen) while he was at DevConf this weekend, and we got to
>  thinking whether it was possible to make a tiny tool that would
>  solve one specific issue we often come across when someone says "I
>  know X, Y and Z
>  - What can I do to help Apache?".
> 
>  Traditionally, we've said "subscribe to our mailing list (which
> one?!)"
>  or "Go look at JIRA/BugZilla", which in itself is fine, but
>  off-putting to many people as we don't actively use neither MLs or
>  bug trackers to advertise what we want done, and what tech/person
>  skills would be helpful where (we're terrible!). Furthermore, it is
>  our opinion/assessment that bug trackers are not that great from a
>  "skills
>  -> tasks" perspective. While great for bugs and larger tasks for an
>  existing audience, they don't provide the right overview or search
>  features that one could want, and keeping some sort of uniform
>  setup for these tasks across the ASF is going to be a LOT of work.
> 
>  ...If only we had somewhere 

RE: Help Wanted! (it's a title, not a request!)

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

+1, +1, etc.

Apache OpenOffice is overflowing with opportunities to make use of this.

I did not notice a way to indicate that a task has been "taken" or is 
completed/withdrawn.

(I could have missed it.)

I assume a potential GSoC mini-project could be identified in the title or 
short description, with a link to the JIRA place for further details?  The 
offer of mentoring could be there too.

Each project could have their own FAQ about general necessities of contribution 
how to prepare/start, by subproject area if needed, tied into wherever the 
project-level widget is displayed.

The breakdown into areas of contribution is very nice.

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: Daniel Gruno [mailto:humbed...@apache.org]
> Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2016 08:23
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Help Wanted! (it's a title, not a request!)
> 
> On 02/07/2016 05:13 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> > I like!
> 
> Yay! Glad to hear this :)
> 
> >
> > One suggestion that does not add complexity, but just a little bit of
> > text. Try to quantify the Difficulty levels. Is "Journeyman" harder or
> > easier than "Intermediate"? Similarly, how do "Advanced" and "Expert"
> > compare? I suggest fewer Difficulty options, with a one sentence
> > explanation of each.
> 
> I picked 5 because 3 sounded like too few (too big a jump between
> them?). There is an icon next to the difficulty level that shows which
> 'level' it is, from green (easy) to red (very hard). Maybe I need to
> make that more visible?.
> 
> An explanation sounds like a great idea, and we can add that as a
> tooltip in the widget overview and as a line of text in the actual task
> details. I can get started on that right away, whereas changing to use 3
> levels might take some getting used to for me (and a bit of work to
> rework the existing system down to 3 levels instead of 5).
> 
> Or hm, what about a small (?) next to the level which shows you what we
> expect this level to signify.?
> 
> With regards,
> Daniel.
[ ... ]

RE: Guiding volunteers

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

In the case of GSoC mentoring, one needed change is to add the search case 
http://s.apache.org/gsoc2016tasks or maybe a generic 
http://s.apache.org/gsoctasks.

Then the Guide to being a mentor can be updated to match that and not continue 
to mention "gsoc2011".  

This requires adding a public filter to the ASF JIRA and I am not certain who 
has the karma and skills to do that (being on a bugzilla-based project myself 
and my JIRA skills are past their use-by date).

QUESTION #1: If we want to broaden this mentoring of volunteers under other 
conditions, I assume that can be done by additional labelling cases along with 
or separate from any gsoc label.  Yes?

QUESTION #2: For non-GSoC mentoring of volunteers on a bugzilla-reliant 
project, I assume using the special JIRA arrangement and mailing list that has 
been dedicated to GSoC needs an alternative or modification.  We still need a 
generic place for volunteer to be able to look when looking for mentoring, but 
that might guide them to a variety of places.  Are there thoughts on how to 
flex that GSoC-focused arrangement in some manner, or to cross-connect with a 
generic arrangement?

 - Dennis


> -Original Message-
> From: Rich Bowen [mailto:rbo...@rcbowen.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 23:37
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Guiding volunteers
> 
> 
> 
> On 02/05/2016 08:23 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> > This focus on tooling is the wrong focus,
> 
> Yeah .. I was going to say ... we could spend weeks down the rat-hole of
> which tool, which tracker, which technology, and we'll lose track of the
> goal.
> 
> Invariably when I travel to events, I get excited about what we could do
> at Apache to get the word out, if only ... and then I get back home and
> real life pushes out those good intentions. Tomorrow is the last day of
> my travels. Perhaps I can get something done today ...
> 
> 
> 
> especially for those of us who don't know how to get started on new
> tooling, or for those who recognize we already have a fine tool for the
> job - we're just not communicating it well.
> >
> > Here are three concreate actions *anyone* with a little time available
> can take today.
> >
> > 1) Update the page at http://community.apache.org/guide-to-being-a-
> mentor.html to be more generic (i.e. not GSOC specific) and reflect the
> goals of this thread (if you don't know how to use the ASF CMS to edit
> our site I've pasted the markdown below, just edit here and someone can
> put it onto the site for you)
> >
> > 2) Pick your favourite project. Drop a mail to the dev list. Explain
> your motivation. Ask them to mark issues according to the guidelines in
> http://community.apache.org/guide-to-being-a-mentor.html
> >
> > 3) Get the message out to those who need a little guidance that they
> can find such issues in JIRA (there are many ways this can be done, all
> of them are good ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> > Ross
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Venkat Raman [mailto:ramanindy...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 7:55 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Guiding volunteers
> >
> > Hi -
> >
> > It would be extremely helpful to have systems like savannah to newbies
> to dive in based on their skill sets and area of interest.I would like
> to contribute as well. But, struggling in the same way as others to get
> started.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Venkat
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Patricia Shanahan 
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2/4/2016 10:35 AM, Greg Chase wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Patricia Shanahan 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> An alternative approach would be a help-wanted page, organized
> >>> according
>  to skills, maintained on the same sort of system as the board
> agenda.
>  Each
>  PMC chair whose project is looking for volunteers would supply
>  information about their needs. The result would be a public web
> page
>  potential volunteers could search.
> 
>  Ideally, it would be on a whimsey-like system, but a start could be
>  made by just defining a format and keeping the master page in a PMC
>  chair accessible SVN archive.
> 
> 
>  This is a wonderful idea.  I've been looking for a way to get the
>  various
> >>> incubating communities I'm helping organize recruit new
> contributors.
> >>> This
> >>> would help solve this problem by making it easier for (p)PMC's to
> >>> articulate what they would like help with from new community
> members.
> >>>
> >>> Obviously it would be an adhoc system, and up to projects to fill
> out
> >>> and keep their want ad's up to date.  Perhaps a rule of the system
> >>> would be that want ads are automatically deleted after a month if
> >>> they aren't visited and renewed by project members to verify they
> are still current.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I like the idea of automatic disappearance, but maybe make it three
> >> months and tie it to the board report cycle 

RE: Thanks for AOO

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

The PDF is filed at .

> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Jagielski [mailto:j...@jagunet.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 4, 2015 04:45
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Thanks for AOO
> 
> Attachment must have gotten stripped off
> 
> > On Dec 4, 2015, at 7:34 AM, sebb  wrote:
> >
> > Original mail was sent to Comdev; no attachment.
> >
> > Followup with attachment was sent to private@openoffice.a.o
> >
> > On 4 December 2015 at 12:21, Jim Jagielski  wrote:
> >> Hmmm... not sure. It shows up in my copy.
> >>
> >>> On Dec 4, 2015, at 1:42 AM, Ross Gardler
>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Did an attachment get stripped?
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: Jim Jagielski [mailto:j...@jagunet.com]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2015 4:56 AM
> >>> To: ComDev 
> >>> Subject: Thanks for AOO
> >>>
> >>> Sometimes, a letter can make your day!
> >>>
> >>

FW: Question relating to a problem in Open Office

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Soundaram,

I have forwarded your message to dev@ openoffice.apache.org where you may find 
better responss.  

The remedy is to find the lock file in the same folder as the document that was 
open at the time of interruption.  It will have a similar name to the one that 
was open.  Delete that file.

You may find there are other difficulties to deal with.  These can be discussed 
and resolved on the dev@ oo.a.o list.

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: SOUNDARAM PADMANABHAN [mailto:padmanabhan_2...@yahoo.co.in]
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 05:59
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Question relating to a problem in Open Office
> 
> Sir
> Would like to ask a question relating to a problem faced by me in Open
> Office.
> 
> Whilst working in a text document in Open Office, power trip forced the
> computerto shut down.
> On opening the document in which I was working the following message
> pops up
> Document Locked for Editing
> 
> Question : How to remove this feature - Locked for Editing?
> Regards
> S. Padmanabhan

RE: ACEU Presentation Template - OWN GOAL

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I did remind myself at OSCON 2015.

And I have not delivered a template for ApacheCon Europe.

That will not happen.  

I trust all speakers have already found appropriate means.  Anything toward 
having a reusable templated would be great.  

My effort is "dormant" (inside joke).

My apologies for waiting so long before saying anything.  

I promise to do better.  

What I will do to have a different result is put reminders on a calendar where 
I will notice them, and enough time before a deliverable that I can ask for 
changes for enough in advance for something to be done about it.

I have done that now for ApacheConNA in Vancouver, BC, on May 9-13, 2016 
(practically in my backyard).  My promise is to have a slide template by March 
9, 2016.  I will start working on it by February 9, 2016 (which should be time 
enough even to overdo it although I am after the least that is basically 
useful).

 - Dennis

-Original Message-----
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] 
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 09:18
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: ACEU Presentation Template

Truly back at the same venue?  
<http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/apachecon-europe>.  The hotel that 
gave rise to an Apache Project (incubating).  Great!

Wow, the logo with just "ApacheCon Europe" over the feather is great.  Much 
easier to customize that one just once for Europe, and just once for North 
America.  It also appears that many of the slide used had more simplicity of 
backgrounds.

That I can handle, with backgrounds and venue information separately 
customizable.

Remind me at OSCON if I haven't done it already.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Rich Bowen [mailto:rbo...@rcbowen.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 06:56
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: ACNA Presentation Template



On 03/22/2015 12:40 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
[ ... ]
> In anticipation of the next AC-anywhere, I want to help turn this (and the 
> previous two under Linux Foundation) into a form that can be 
> repurposed/reused/customized along with information on how to do it and the 
> resources/skills that are required.
>
> Removing the crunch requirement is great.

Well, we need one for AC Europe, too. so there's about 6 months to work 
on that one. :-)

apachecon.eu

--Rich

RE: Grace Hopper talk

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I think Grace Hopper would have thought open-source development to be great.  
She had a serious populist streak that would have resonated.  

I'm not so certain she would admire a certain lack of discipline, but we might 
never know.  She was not into complexification at all.

This reminds me that I did know her in person, to the extent she knew me by 
name and wrote me a great at-a-boy letter once.  I promised someone, while at 
the ACM Turing Centennial event to talk about that at a Seattle event and 
neither of us followed up about it.  



-Original Message-
From: Billie Rinaldi [mailto:bil...@apache.org] 
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 12:15
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Grace Hopper talk

Hi ComDev,

I wanted to let you know that I've volunteered to give a talk on getting
involved with open source at the ASF for the upcoming Grace Hopper
Conference (http://gracehopper.anitaborg.org).  I was excited to hear the
conference has an entire track on open source this year.  Hopefully we will
get some new people interested in the ASF!

Billie

RE: What is the legal basis for enforcing release policies at ASF?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

[Failing at dealing with this cross-posted and variously-branched discussion on 
two lists, so I am doing it too.  Also OT with respect to Ross's declaration, 
but it has to do with the fact that release is not so well distinguished as 
one might hope.]

Minor nit? #1: 

Generally, because of what is seen in the repository in terms of LICENSE and 
NOTICE placement, it appears to apply to everything at and below that point in 
the repository.  A casual observer cannot tell that there is an important 
ceremonial distinction with regard to using the archived packaging of an 
approved Apache Release.

Not-so-minor nit? #2: 

Licensed to the Apache Software Foundation (ASF) 
under one or more contributor license agreements. 
See the NOTICE file **distributed** with this work
for additional information regarding copyright 
ownership.  The ASF licenses this file to you under 
the Apache License, Version 2.0 (the 'License') at 
the very top of many individual files in typical ASF 
Project repositories.

Techno-legal nit? #3: 

From http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt:

You hereby grant to the Foundation and to recipients 
of software **distributed** by the Foundation a perpetual,
worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, 
irrevocable copyright license to reproduce, prepare 
derivative works of, publicly display, publicly perform, 
sublicense, and distribute Your Contributions and such 
derivative works.

 ** emphasis mine in both places

Avoiding the nit-pickers by picking more nit? #4

A while back, because I was concerned that some user of a contribution of mine 
might be trapped in a hair splitting between distribution, non-distribution, 
and released I made a supplemental declaration.  I provided a copy to the 
Secretary of the Foundation on 2013-03-08.

This broader statement grants to **all parties obtaining** any past or future 
ASF **contribution** of mine effectively the same copyright license granted 
under the iCLA without the condition that it be distributed by the Foundation.  
You can see it in all of its glory at 
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/openoffice-dev/201303.mbox/%3c008801ce1c21$0deb3560$29c1a020$@apache.org%3e.
  This is not the same as an ALv2 license, but it basically gives to all of 
those parties the same terms as provided to the ASF under the iCLA (technically 
not an ALv2 license either).

I have made a comparable declaration by any contribution I might make to 
LibreOffice.  I have *not* provided LibreOffice with the dual MPL-LGPL license 
declaration they tend to request. (The receipt of that declaration has not been 
acknowledged, but I stand behind it.)  

(Le sigh)

 - Dennis  



-Original Message-
From: Ross Gardler [mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 09:14
To: gene...@incubator.apache.org; ComDev dev@community.apache.org
Subject: RE: What is the legal basis for enforcing release policies at ASF?

[ ... ]

Our policy is that the combined works are RELEASED under ALv2. That combined 
work is only licensed as  such when the foundation formally approves it. This 
happens when the PMC members indicate that, to the best of their knowledge, a 
specified combined work (a source package) conforms with the legal and policy 
expectations of ask source code included (both ours and upstream).

Individual contributions in our source repository are under ALv2. These are 
approved as such, through a best effort analysis, at the point of contribution. 
[ ... ]

Blank list messages (was RE: moderators?)

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Ross, as I have mentioned to you off-list, I receive blank emails from you and 
a few others on certain @apache lists.

I think this is a discrepancy in how HTML-formatted emails manage to get from 
one client to another and I suspect that it probably relates to protocol 
discrepancies involving smartphone and tablet email clients.  It could also be 
attributable to intermediaries, such as the list server, or an affinity-email 
forwarder.  Also, the archives usually have the actual text of what arrive to 
my desktop as blank messages.

In your case and that of a few others, I usually simply wait to see if anyone 
replies on the list, because the message is usually quoted properly, so the 
blank message I get is not seen as blank by everyone.  

This means that we also have the problem of works for me!

Welcome to the club [;).

 - Dennis

PS: I also receive some list messages, but not all, with [SPAM] prefixes and I 
have no idea what intermediary is accomplishing that.  I do everything possible 
to receive unfiltered email so I can review Junk E-mail-filed incomings 
myself.

-Original Message-
From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) [mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com] 
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2015 01:52
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: RE: moderators?

I've seen a number of blank emails recently.  Probably probe emails.

-Original Message-
From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacre...@apache.org] 
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2015 1:45 AM
To: dev
Subject: Re: moderators?

Hi,

On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 6:06 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) 
ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote:
 Who are the moderators for this list?...

I am one, I don't think I should have missed something recently. If you have 
specific examples of something that was missed I can have a look.

And yes, depending on how many people reply it might be good to get more 
moderators.

-Bertrand

RE: Veto! Veto?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

In more-formal arrangements, do-overs must be initiated by someone whose vote 
was on the prevailing side of the previous deliberation.  This is a way to 
avoid constant reconsideration in what is more like an adversarial procedure.  
The local government where I live is in a state of perpetual reconsideration 
via voter initiatives.

I think the idea for Apache is that if this situation arises, there is a 
breakdown in the community.  We have some awful examples in my country of what 
happens when that becomes toxic and legislatures would rather fight than govern.

After consensus, of course, reconsideration is always possible based on new 
information or some other change in the state of affairs, unless there is some 
serious gaming going on.  

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 07:00
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Veto! Veto?

I agree: consensus reached through discussion as far better than having to
do the (majority rule) vote. As with that, you -for sure - don't always get
what you want.

But it is - by far-the best alternative available to keep movement in a
project. And do-overs are possible.

Pierre

Op dinsdag 24 maart 2015 heeft Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com het volgende
geschreven:

 On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 8:33 AM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com
 javascript:;
 wrote:

  On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 2:43 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
  bdelacre...@apache.org javascript:; wrote:
   On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Jacques Le Roux
   jacques.le.r...@les7arts.com javascript:; wrote:
   Who will update the https://community.apache.org/newcommitter.html
  page?*
  
   I've done that, it now says In general, committer elections are
   majority approval votes, as described on the Apache Voting Process
   page with a link.
 
  That's not my understanding. It's not what I've heard from the Board
  over the years, particularly from Greg. And I believe that it's for a
  very good reason that personnel votes at Apache are not majority rule:
  majority rule forces a result rather than creates consensus.
 

 I dislike all voting, yes. Consensus through discussion is definitely a
 better approach.

 Concretely: I don't think there is any specific recommendation for how a
 PMC/community decides upon new committers. I've seen many mechanisms. In
 fact, within Apache Subversion, a committer can be added by any *singular*
 PMC member, no vote required (but their resulting commit rights are
 limited).

 For PMC Members, Roy has stated [on general@incubator, on 1/31/2012] that:

 Well, it boils down to the fact that making someone a PMC member gives
 them veto power over the changes you make.  The only way that works
 socially is if everyone currently on the PMC agrees that person is a peer.

 ...

 Cheers,
 -g



-- 
Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com*
Services  Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail  Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

RE: Veto! Veto?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I think it is great that there are all of these views on the importance of 
consensus and how that ties to the nurturing of community and harmony toward a 
common purpose.  I wouldn't even hang around ASF, after having grasped what 
little of that as I have, if it was not the case.

And it is obvious, from this discussion, that there needs to be room for a PMC 
to establish where they stand on certain kinds of deliberation and resolution.  
And that is something the PMC determines by whatever the starting process is.

A concern I have is related to podlings, ones that do not have many experienced 
committers, where customization happens without explanation by mentors and 
newbies will be launched into the world with different ideas about how things 
are.

For me, I am thinking that simple principles, in particular what -1 means when 
it is not the specific case of a release or commit, need to have simple 
practices that everyone can use as a starting point before having to understand 
the nuances. (And I am not in favor of -1 from anyone counting as a hard-stop 
veto, which is what I have been seeing in at least one place.)

The requirement for mentor concurrence on personnel matters is also an 
opportunity for coaching if things seem to be going pear-shaped. (I don't know 
that is a principle for podlings, it is how it worked when AOO was in the 
incubator.  We also did not have any mentors go native.)

Another thing has to do with confusion of committer invitation and [P]PMC 
invitation.  I understand that a combined invitation is trumped by the [P]PMC 
policies and there are *specific* procedures in place for how concurrence of 
higher powers is obtained before an invitation should be presented to the 
invitee.  And, while different PMCs have different ways of doing all of this, I 
think it is important to understand that they are different things and local 
principles will determine how they are amalgamated, discussed, and resolved and 
whether invariably tied together.

I'm not seeking some sort of absolutism.  I do think there needs to be a 
reasonable stable ground for the principles, ones that can be easily followed, 
and that lean toward the fostering of community.  I don't think it is a good 
idea to be all over the map when a PPMC fires up with initial committers that 
are not ASF vaccinated and whose further arrivals need not be either.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Greg Stein [mailto:gst...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 06:47
To: Marvin Humphrey
Cc: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Veto! Veto?

[ ... ]

I dislike all voting, yes. Consensus through discussion is definitely a
better approach.

Concretely: I don't think there is any specific recommendation for how a
PMC/community decides upon new committers. I've seen many mechanisms. In
fact, within Apache Subversion, a committer can be added by any *singular*
PMC member, no vote required (but their resulting commit rights are
limited).

For PMC Members, Roy has stated [on general@incubator, on 1/31/2012] that:

Well, it boils down to the fact that making someone a PMC member gives
them veto power over the changes you make.  The only way that works
socially is if everyone currently on the PMC agrees that person is a peer.

...

Cheers,
-g

RE: Veto! Veto?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I think we should not confuse consensus with unanimity, because a -1 need not 
cure to a +1.  The procedures are more nuanced than that, 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_decision-making, and there are many 
ways a cooperating participant can express their concern.  

I do notice that there is confusion about Consensus Approval versus Majority 
Approval because the description of Consensus Approval uses the veto word, 
http://www.apache.org/foundation/glossary.html#ConsensusApproval.  

I have seen nothing that requires unanimity in the absence of the veto rule 
where it *specifically* applies to commits in ASF principles.  

I notice that unanimity is absent as a term in what I read of ASF principles. 
 I assume that it is intentional that such a clear term is not used.  I read 
this as allowing for consent that is not full agreement but is an alignment, 
almost always with any -1 vote cured.  See for example, the description of ways 
votes are expressed at http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html.

Another important feature of ASF principles that I see is that ASF is not 
preoccupied with hypotheticals.  The ASF principles have behind them the 
presumption that people of good will can work out matters in a non-adversarial 
manner and that the project communities are trusted to do that.  It is what the 
ASF expects.  And it works.  We have been told repeatedly in this thread how 
extremely rare it is for it to be otherwise and the feared hypothetical 
actually arising.

It is good to stop fretting over hypotheticals and simply operate from good 
will.  If something unfortunate arises, it can be dealt with in whatever the 
actual context is.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 01:02
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Veto! Veto?

When it comes to people, consensus (acceptance by unanimity) is the best
thing to have. But if the ASF has as its principle that no vetoes are
allowed, how can it be the remit of a project's PMC have it as its policy?

Best regards,


Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com*
Services  Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail  Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 3:17 PM, Jacques Le Roux 
jacques.le.r...@les7arts.com wrote:

 Le 22/03/2015 14:42, jan i a écrit :

 On 22 March 2015 at 14:35, Pierre Smits pierre.sm...@gmail.com wrote:

  HI Bertrand,

 Thanks for the clarification regarding
 http://community.apache.org/newcommitter.html

 Shouldn't http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html then also
 explicitly
 reflect that vetoes aren't allowed when it comes to on- and ofboarding
 contributors as committer and PMC member? That would surely bring
 clarity.

  I would be very unhappy with aren´t allowed, that is something the
 individual PMCs should decide !


 Yes indeed that's PMCs 's remit; we just need to clarify the ASF default.

 Jacques



 rgds
 jan I.


  Best regards,

 Pierre Smits

 *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com*
 Services  Solutions for Cloud-
 Based Manufacturing, Professional
 Services and Retail  Trade
 http://www.orrtiz.com

 On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz 
 bdelacre...@apache.org

 wrote:
 On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Jacques Le Roux
 jacques.le.r...@les7arts.com wrote:

 ...Thanks for the clarification Bertrand, this was also unclear to me.

 Should

 we not amend the newcommitter page?..

 That would be great, I don't have time right now myself.
 -Bertrand

RE: ACNA Presentation Template - Crunch

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Thanks Nick,

I received the files from you.

I don't know about backgrounds.  It may end up being plain, or extra credit 
once I have anything workable with the essential parts. 

I notice that the ACNA14 slides have a Linux Foundation credit on them.  I 
would think this is appropriate for ACNA15 also.  Is that correct?

Thanks for the other links.  That is very helpful.

 - Dennis

PS: Having thoughts about developer dogfood and how AOO is a stranger in a 
strange land.

-Original Message-
From: Nick Burch [mailto:n...@apache.org] 
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 06:01
To: Dennis E. Hamilton
Cc: dev@community.apache.org; 'Melissa Warnkin'
Subject: RE: ACNA Presentation Template - Crunch

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
 I have extracted the three background images from the ACEU14 
 presentation.  They are not possible to morph.  They are JPEGs and there 
 is no reasonable way to extract pieces and morph the logo and conference 
 name.

I'll send you the images I used offline. They were mostly just taken from 
the ApacheCon website, with a few edits

 But I will have to do it from scratch.  What I need very badly, if there 
 are not already drawing components that were used for ACEU14, is the 
 feather.  Just the feather.  Preferably black-and-white and a resizable 
 graphic at that.

The SVG of the feather is available from the foundation site:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/press/kit/

The ApacheCon North America in white with the feather outline, like the 
Europe one, is available from the LF ApacheCon site:
http://events.linuxfoundation.org/sites/events/files/apachecon_na_logo_w.png

Other event logos in various formats, in case they help with ideas / 
inspiration / structure / etc can be found at:
http://events.apache.org/organize/logos/

Sadly the LF haven't done us a nice two-colour image of the skyline this 
time, nor the funky Denver trees, so it'll be more work...

Nick

RE: ACNA Presentation Template

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Thanks Nick, those are great!

I consider the problem solved.

In anticipation of the next AC-anywhere, I want to help turn this (and the 
previous two under Linux Foundation) into a form that can be 
repurposed/reused/customized along with information on how to do it and the 
resources/skills that are required.  

Removing the crunch requirement is great.

 - Dennis,
   Now having learned what some folks consider simple requests 
   (and solutions) around here.

-Original Message-
From: Nick Burch [mailto:n...@apache.org] 
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 07:48
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: ACNA Presentation Template

Hi All

I've had a go at updating my Budapest template for Austin, draft so far 
available at:
http://people.apache.org/~nick/Draft_ACNA15_Template_Nick.odp

[ ... ]

RE: ACNA Presentation Template - Crunch

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I am having a problem.

Because the background image in the ACEU14 set is all JPEG with no way to take 
it apart, I looked at the others on SourceForge.  They each have problem, 
especially with the name and location of the conference being bolted into the 
feather images as combined raster/JPEG images.

So I come back to the one from nick:

 1. The feather and typography about the conference are beautiful to me.

 2. It is designed for a dark background and that matters these days.

 3. The name of the conference is a slight problem because North America 
cannot fit in the style used for Europe.

THE KEY PROBLEM

There are three versions of the background, varying where the logo goes and 
some small details.

The problem is that the three versions are each single JPEG files.  That is, 
the 
logo, and other components of each background are not separable components.

WHAT I NEED

If Nick has original graphics in which these are separated, especially vector 
graphics except for the building and overall background image that I will 
replace anyhow, I can move ahead quickly.  

If not I am seriously stuck.  Morphing the jpegs directly strikes me as a 
Waiting to Fail.  I would rather fail now, though I have no great Plan B.  And 
I love Nick's feather image.

 - Dennis

PS: Hey, you know that simple change you wanted?  It turned to be extremely 
simple and it is all done now.  -- No software developer, ever.

-Original Message-
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] 
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 11:18
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: 'Melissa Warnkin'
Subject: RE: ACNA Presentation Template

I assume that is what I am working on.  I am adapting ACEU 2014 for ACNA 2015 
as easily as possible.

I assume that any IP issue is solved when the image is replaced.

I'm also assuming, based on silence, that this template was used and none had a 
problem with it.

If there is a particular place to upload it, I need to know about that too.

 - Dennis



-Original Message-
From: shaposh...@gmail.com [mailto:shaposh...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Roman 
Shaposhnik
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 10:05
To: ComDev
Cc: Dennis Hamilton; Melissa Warnkin
Subject: Re: ACNA Presentation Template

Sorry for jumping into the discussion late, but is there a chance for
[semi-]official templates to be available for ACNA15?

Thanks,
Roman.

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote:
 On 19/03/2015 Rich Bowen wrote:


 http://templates.openoffice.org/en/search?search_api_views_fulltext=apacheconsort_by=createdsort_order=ASC
 and also
 http://people.apache.org/~nick/NickTemplateACEU14.odp
 Also, see
 http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/community-dev/201411.mbox/browser
 for discussion of the differences between the two, and the fact that,
 apparently, one of them is 14MB, and what to do about it.


 The unusable (14MB or so) one is neither of the above. It had been
 graciously provided by the Linux Foundation to speakers.

 Community-produced OpenOffice templates that were actually used at
 conferences are the following:

 ApacheCon Europe 2012
 http://templates.openoffice.org/en/template/apachecon-europe-2012-presentation

 ApacheCon NA 2013
 http://templates.openoffice.org/en/template/apachecon-north-amaerica-2013

 ApacheCon EU 2014
 http://people.apache.org/~nick/NickTemplateACEU14.odp
 (this ought to have been uploaded to the Templates site too, but apparently
 Linux Foundation never clarified the terms of usage for some images that
 Nick included into it)

 By the way, we happen to be speaking about a specific sub-sub-issue where
 the Linux Foundation didn't do a great job, but ApacheCon Budapest was
 amazing, and they surely have a lot of merit for it!

 Regards,
   Andrea.

RE: ACNA Presentation Template - Crunch

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I have extracted the three background images from the ACEU14 presentation.  
They are not possible to morph.  They are JPEGs and there is no reasonable way 
to extract pieces and morph the logo and conference name.  

My plan is to produce three new ones of these and slide them into the ODP in 
place of the current ones.

But I will have to do it from scratch.  What I need very badly, if there are 
not already drawing components that were used for ACEU14, is the feather.  Just 
the feather.  Preferably black-and-white and a resizable graphic at that.  

I need it in 72 hours (that's 2015-03-25T01:44Z) I am simply going to default 
on this.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] 
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 12:11
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: 'Melissa Warnkin'; 'Nick Burch'
Subject: RE: ACNA Presentation Template - Crunch

[ ... ]

WHAT I NEED

If Nick has original graphics in which these are separated, especially vector 
graphics except for the building and overall background image that I will 
replace anyhow, I can move ahead quickly.  

If not I am seriously stuck.  Morphing the jpegs directly strikes me as a 
Waiting to Fail.  I would rather fail now, though I have no great Plan B.  And 
I love Nick's feather image.

 - Dennis

PS: Hey, you know that simple change you wanted?  It turned to be extremely 
simple and it is all done now.  -- No software developer, ever.

-Original Message-
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] 
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 11:18
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: 'Melissa Warnkin'
Subject: RE: ACNA Presentation Template

I assume that is what I am working on.  I am adapting ACEU 2014 for ACNA 2015 
as easily as possible.

I assume that any IP issue is solved when the image is replaced.

I'm also assuming, based on silence, that this template was used and none had a 
problem with it.

If there is a particular place to upload it, I need to know about that too.

 - Dennis



-Original Message-
From: shaposh...@gmail.com [mailto:shaposh...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Roman 
Shaposhnik
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 10:05
To: ComDev
Cc: Dennis Hamilton; Melissa Warnkin
Subject: Re: ACNA Presentation Template

Sorry for jumping into the discussion late, but is there a chance for
[semi-]official templates to be available for ACNA15?

Thanks,
Roman.

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote:
 On 19/03/2015 Rich Bowen wrote:


 http://templates.openoffice.org/en/search?search_api_views_fulltext=apacheconsort_by=createdsort_order=ASC
 and also
 http://people.apache.org/~nick/NickTemplateACEU14.odp
 Also, see
 http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/community-dev/201411.mbox/browser
 for discussion of the differences between the two, and the fact that,
 apparently, one of them is 14MB, and what to do about it.


 The unusable (14MB or so) one is neither of the above. It had been
 graciously provided by the Linux Foundation to speakers.

 Community-produced OpenOffice templates that were actually used at
 conferences are the following:

 ApacheCon Europe 2012
 http://templates.openoffice.org/en/template/apachecon-europe-2012-presentation

 ApacheCon NA 2013
 http://templates.openoffice.org/en/template/apachecon-north-amaerica-2013

 ApacheCon EU 2014
 http://people.apache.org/~nick/NickTemplateACEU14.odp
 (this ought to have been uploaded to the Templates site too, but apparently
 Linux Foundation never clarified the terms of usage for some images that
 Nick included into it)

 By the way, we happen to be speaking about a specific sub-sub-issue where
 the Linux Foundation didn't do a great job, but ApacheCon Budapest was
 amazing, and they surely have a lot of merit for it!

 Regards,
   Andrea.

RE: ACNA Presentation Template

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

OK, since it is the latest that worked, I will flex the ACEU 2014 for ACNA 2015.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Rich Bowen [mailto:rbo...@rcbowen.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 09:48
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: ACNA Presentation Template

I don't have any particular opinion as to what's important to preserve. 
We're just looking for a template that has the logo, says ApacheCon 
North America 2015, and ... that's it.

I'm sorry, I'm not a designer either. Last year I tossed the request 
out, someone provided a template, and we went with it.

On 03/19/2015 12:00 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
 [ ... ]
 And this one is from ACEU 2014,

 http://people.apache.org/~nick/NickTemplateACEU14.odp

[ ... ]

RE: ACNA Presentation Template

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

@Rich,

http://templates.openoffice.org/en/search?search_api_views_fulltext=apacheconsort_by=createdsort_order=ASC

Has too many choices.  Please tell me which one. I'm only doing one.

And this one is from ACEU 2014, 

http://people.apache.org/~nick/NickTemplateACEU14.odp

(but only 255kb). I wouldn't want to be color-blind in a presentation with this 
one, even though avoiding white screen is nice.  It also looks like the Notes 
pages are screwy, if that matters.

I'm not a designer and it is important for people to say what they consider 
important to preserve in the ACNA 2015 version.  And it looks like time (and my 
capacity) is short.  I am just the one foolish enough to raise their hand to 
get this off the dime.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Rich Bowen [mailto:rbo...@rcbowen.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 06:27
To: dennis.hamil...@acm.org; dev@community.apache.org; 'Melissa Warnkin'
Subject: Re: ACNA Presentation Template



On 03/19/2015 01:16 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
 Jeepers,

 OK, I put the request on dev-openoffice and there were no bites.

 Somebody, send the last one to me and I will see what I can do with it.  It 
 would help to know what is particularly liked about the last one so I don't 
 muck it up.

http://templates.openoffice.org/en/search?search_api_views_fulltext=apacheconsort_by=createdsort_order=ASC

and also

http://people.apache.org/~nick/NickTemplateACEU14.odp

Also, see 
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/community-dev/201411.mbox/browser 
for discussion of the differences between the two, and the fact that, 
apparently, one of them is 14MB, and what to do about it.

--Rich


-- 
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon

RE: ACNA Presentation Template

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Just for calibration, my interpretation of the request was to update an 
existing previous-conference presentation template to reflect the new venue and 
dates for ACNA 2015.  I was not expecting a big job.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] 
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 09:00
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: RE: ACNA Presentation Template

@Rich,

http://templates.openoffice.org/en/search?search_api_views_fulltext=apacheconsort_by=createdsort_order=ASC

Has too many choices.  Please tell me which one. I'm only doing one.

And this one is from ACEU 2014, 

http://people.apache.org/~nick/NickTemplateACEU14.odp

(but only 255kb). I wouldn't want to be color-blind in a presentation with this 
one, even though avoiding white screen is nice.  It also looks like the Notes 
pages are screwy, if that matters.

I'm not a designer and it is important for people to say what they consider 
important to preserve in the ACNA 2015 version.  And it looks like time (and my 
capacity) is short.  I am just the one foolish enough to raise their hand to 
get this off the dime.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Rich Bowen [mailto:rbo...@rcbowen.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 06:27
To: dennis.hamil...@acm.org; dev@community.apache.org; 'Melissa Warnkin'
Subject: Re: ACNA Presentation Template



On 03/19/2015 01:16 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
 Jeepers,

 OK, I put the request on dev-openoffice and there were no bites.

 Somebody, send the last one to me and I will see what I can do with it.  It 
 would help to know what is particularly liked about the last one so I don't 
 muck it up.

http://templates.openoffice.org/en/search?search_api_views_fulltext=apacheconsort_by=createdsort_order=ASC

and also

http://people.apache.org/~nick/NickTemplateACEU14.odp

Also, see 
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/community-dev/201411.mbox/browser 
for discussion of the differences between the two, and the fact that, 
apparently, one of them is 14MB, and what to do about it.

--Rich


-- 
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon

RE: ACNA Presentation Template

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Jeepers,

OK, I put the request on dev-openoffice and there were no bites.

Somebody, send the last one to me and I will see what I can do with it.  It 
would help to know what is particularly liked about the last one so I don't 
muck it up.

I figure this gives me OSCON 2015 booth-bunny pole position, yes?

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Melissa Warnkin [mailto:missywarn...@yahoo.com.INVALID] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 16:02
To: jan i
Cc: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: ACNA Presentation Template

Yes, I know you're extremely busy Jan; however, I wanted to send a gentle 
reminder to the AOO folks (and cc you, as Chair!) since I haven't seen a 
response.  We already have a template created by the AOO community, Rich was 
just asking for it to be updated/revised with the current info.
Hopefully someone within the community can revise the template?!
Thanks a million!!
~M

  From: jan i j...@apache.org
 To: Melissa Warnkin missywarn...@yahoo.com 
Cc: dev@community.apache.org dev@community.apache.org; Jan Iversen 
j...@apache.org 
 Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 6:02 PM
 Subject: Re: ACNA Presentation Template
   


On Wednesday, March 18, 2015, Melissa Warnkin missywarn...@yahoo.com wrote:

Hi guys!
I hope you're all having a wonderful day!
Just following up on this as I haven't seen a response.  Any chance our 
wonderful OpenOffice folks can provide an updated template relatively soon? 
(Don't make me create one on PowerPoint!!) LOL

I did notice that I  was added to this mail, as AOO chair I am subscribed to 
dev@
But even though I would like to make a template, I cannot add more to my plate 
which is already more than full. I hope someone in the community will do it.
Making a template with AOO is real good marketing for AOO, in Denver the 
template was used in more than half of the talks.
rgdsjan i


Thanks a bunch,~M
  From: Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com
 To: dev dev@community.apache.org 
 Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 10:44 AM
 Subject: Fwd: ACNA Presentation Template
   
Hey, OpenOffice folks, any chance you can update last year's 
presentation template for ACNA2015? Thanks.


 Forwarded Message 
Subject: ACNA Presentation Template
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 09:26:30 -0500
From: Shawn McKinney smckin...@apache.org
Reply-To: apachecon-disc...@apache.org
To: apachecon-disc...@apache.org

Hello,

Is there a presentation template available for upcoming ACNA in austin? 
  Thanks

Shawn
smckin...@apache.org







   


-- 
Sent from My iPad, sorry for any misspellings.


  

RE: ApacheCon NA CFP closed

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

 -- replying below to --
From: jan i [mailto:j...@apache.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2015 01:12
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: ApacheCon NA CFP closed

On Monday, February 2, 2015, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) 
ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote:

[ ... ]
 Ross: Hey, you know you are doing cool stuff, you should consider
 submitting a talk at ApacheCon

 A.N.Other: Isn't that just for Apache people though

 Ross: Traditionally, yes. But we are trying to make it much broader than
 that. Apache is about producing open source software, so anything open
 source related is a potential fit. Anything that uses ASF software, like
 your work, is a really good fit
[ ... ]


We should really make that clear to people, I strongly believe the general
opinion is  non-project talks are not welcome. I base this on the fact that
a number of talks for Denver and Budapest was rejected for being too
company like.

orcmid
   Are there ways to have talks that are not ASF-project centric yet do not
   become company-centric instead?  What about lessons learned, important
   practices, and maybe results of studies, whether from analysts or
   academic sources?
 If the only mention of a company in terms of its brand and products
   is confined to the logo on the slide pages, and affiliation of the
   author, might that work?
 Here are examples of situations that would get me into the room:
   Someone from Google describing their fire-drill system and an actual
   situation of a fail-over somewhere on the planet and all that happens
   to restore services.  (I loved a past report when a fail-over happened
   while fire-drilling was underway.)  Someone handling a serious DOS attack
   and how a defense-in-depth technique caught a penetration that was 
   under-cover of that attack (making one up that might not make actual
   sense).  A study of how many-eyes does or does not show up on an open-
   source project and what the factors seem to be would be one too.
/orcmid


[ ... ]

RE: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

+1 from an observer.

There is much to favor in the least that can possibly work, especially since it 
will inspire consolidation around requirements and what folks want next without 
serious front-loading.

Daniel's approach fits that model and delivers something that is visibly 
maintainable.  The opportunity to gradually organize and reconcile the 
dataflows into something that is possibly more coherent and direct, without 
throwing big switches anywhere, is even more inspiration for +1. 


 -- Dennis E. Hamilton
orc...@apache.org
dennis.hamil...@acm.org+1-206-779-9430
https://keybase.io/orcmid  PGP F96E 89FF D456 628A
X.509 certs used and requested for signed e-mail



-Original Message-
From: Daniel Gruno [mailto:humbed...@apache.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 06:19
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal


On 2015-01-14 14:40, Rich Bowen wrote:


 On 01/14/2015 06:48 AM, Daniel Gruno wrote:
 Hi folks,
[ ... ]
 This is really cool stuff, and answers many of the questions that I go 
 hunting for every time I do a presentation about the ASF. I'm *sure* 
 I'll have feature requests going forward.


 So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially
 comments on whether you:
 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory
 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever.

[ ... ]
The site itself is 100% static HTML+JavaScript, I haven't added any 
arcane Lua/PHP/whatever scripts to it ;).
For the import and maintenance of data such a committer names, reporting 
cycles and current chairs, there are 7 small python scripts that convert 
existing data to JSON, some of which will need to run as cron jobs.
[ ... ]

RE: Proposing for Apache Member?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

While a little tweaking about contributions and contributors might help, the 
common use of those terms tends to be sufficient.  The User hat is also a 
casual description.  There are no bright lines.  

Note that Contributor and Contribution as narrow terms of art are called 
out by explicit definition when needed, as at 
http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.txt.

I think the mistake is defining User as an Apache Hat.  You can talk about 
them all you want, but it does not appear to be an useful designation other 
than for those who self-proclaim themselves to be users (as is certainly their 
right).  Even user reports of misadventures and difficulties are 
contributions and those can be quite valuable.  I see no reason for Apache to 
consider that a distinguishable hat, especially with implications of some sort 
of rank.  

Thinking hierarchically, an user is anyone who engages with the project.  We 
don't know Jack about the ones that don't, not even from download counts.  
Identifiable engagement is a contribution, however fleeting.  It would work for 
me to see there be contributors and then how some contributors also have 
committer (and other roles) at the ASF and ASF projects.

I'm a committer.  I am not wearing my committer hat in writing and posting this 
message. It doesn't seem to me that I am wearing an user hat either. I trust 
that it is a contribution, nonetheless.

What hats are others wearing at the time of their participation on this thread?

 -- Dennis E. Hamilton
dennis.hamil...@acm.org+1-206-779-9430
https://keybase.io/orcmid  PGP F96E 89FF D456 628A
X.509 used and required for signed e-mail

PS: Since it is rare, in practice, for me to make a direct commit to any 
project, my being a committer works out to be more about the orcmid @a.o 
identifier, the fact that I have a CLA on file, and that I have access to some 
mailing lists and resources (including a ~orcmid computer account) that are 
provided to committers.  

-Original Message-
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 05:45
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Proposing for Apache Member?

The hat 'User' states that the following:

They contribute to the Apache projects by providing feedback to developers
in the form of bug reports and feature suggestions

The hat 'Developer' states that the following:

a user who contributes...


In general, a user only consumes the work (the software, the documentation,
the postings on the mailing list). They aren't active as contributors (in
any way, within the community of a project). As soon as a user gets
involved in a project (participating in discussions in the mailing list,
posting JIRA issues, etc) he becomes a contributor to the project and its
work. This person might be a developer or not, a documentalist or not, etc.

Having the 'contribute' in both descriptions makes it ambiguous. Removing
the aspect of contributing from the hat 'User' partly removes that
ambiguity. Renaming the hat 'Developer' to 'Contributor', does the other
part.

Subsequently, the hat 'Committer' could be redefined with following:

A *committer *is a contributor, that was given write access...


Regards,

Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com*
Services  Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail  Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com


On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 2:13 PM, Eric Covener cove...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 7:23 AM, Pierre Smits pierre.sm...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  How can it be that 'Contributor' is not an official 'hat'-definition in
 the
  (explanatory) pages of the ASF? While so much importance is placed on
  correct usage of terminology in projects and elsewhere, based on those
  pages.
 
  Shouldn't the document
  http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles be amended
 (with
  respect to definitons 'User' and 'Developer) in such a way that it
 reflects
  that?

 I don't think a generic Contributor adds much to that document. What
 confusion about the term contributors would the hypothetical update
 clarify?

RE: Apache@ OSCON question

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Historically, Expo Hall passes are free.  OSCON charges a $25 fee that should 
be pre-registered for.  My sense of this is that it is simply meant to 
discourage walk-ins that are not in the target audience of the conference and 
the expo sponsors.  The info is in the last entry at 
https://en.oreilly.com/oscon2014/public/register.

This, by the way, is enough to get to the rooms where there are meetings, such 
as the ASF Board, other birds-of-feather activities that are peripheral to the 
conference.  There are usually some meeting rooms available at the Oregon 
Convention Center, but they may all be booked by now.  The time I visited OSCON 
looking to meet-up with Apache folk a couple of years ago, I don't recall 
having to do anything special at registration.  I certainly didn't register for 
the conference itself.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Melissa Warnkin [mailto:missywarn...@yahoo.com.INVALID] 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2014 12:40
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Apache@ OSCON question

Hi Kay, Hi Andrea!!

You are correct - OSCON officially kicks off in one month!! WooHoo!!

I can make room on the table for pins.  When you refer to leaflet and roll-up 
designs, what is that and how much real estate would they take up? I cannot 
confirm that I can accommodate those items without first knowing how much room 
they would take.  I know you can understand and appreciate that.

At this time, I cannot confirm whether or not I will be able to provide 
complimentary expo hall passes; however, I do have an email out to my contact, 
but he has not responded as of yet.  There is a discount code for 20% off by 
entering this code at registration:  IHEARTASF.


Please let me know about the leaflet and roll-ups so I can determine if I can 
accommodate those items.

Thank you so much,
~M





 From: Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com
To: dev@community.apache.org 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2014 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: Apache@ OSCON question
 



On 06/20/2014 10:29 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
 Kay Schenk wrote:
 OK, I'll ask  about this. I think OpenOffice does have some popular items
 that have been used at other events.
 
 It's out of stock and needs redesign. But we could at least redesign the
 pins, that used to be quite popular. We have updated leaflet and roll-up
 designs, that we can share if anyone is going to print them (or have
 them printed) for OSCON.
 
 Regards,
   Andrea.

OK. OSCON is only about a month out. So, if we decided to bring
anything, it would likely have to be from what we have available now. But...

... I have a question of Melissa. If anyone from OpenOffice attended to
help at the booth, would they need to pay an exhibitor registration fee?
Given the current state of of the OSCON conf site, I have no way of
determining what this amount might be.


-- 
-
MzK

What you can do, or dream you can do, begin it;
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it.
-- attributed to Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

RE: New Committer Orientation

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

The only lists shown to me on that subscription page are

committers-cvs
concom
infrastructure
jobs
site-cvs

in category Foundation lists.

Is that what is meant by your follow-up on the whimsy.../subscribe function?
 

-Original Message-
From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacre...@apache.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 07:58
To: dev
Subject: Re: New Committer Orientation

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:38 PM, jan i j...@apache.org wrote:
 ...seems to be an insider ML, is does not accept
 subscribe-play@play-subscribe and its not listed in
 https://whimsy.apache.org/committers/subscribe...

I do see party in the subscribe options at
https://whimsy.apache.org/committers/subscribe, as you are an ASF
committer I assume you should see it as well, looks like a bug. Or
maybe it's meant for ASF members? That's not what Rich implies above.

-Bertrand

RE: Some clarification needed for Apache Extra projects - Apache Extra in specific

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Luciano's account identifies a clean, bright line between Apache Extras and any 
Apache project.

One point of clarification, however, since I see this statement repeatedly.

It is clear that an Apache Extras project should not *deliver* packages or 
components on any org.apache.xxx... class path.

*Using* packages and definitions on such class paths is a different story. 
Those are usable under provisions of the ALv2 license.

I see no useful purpose in prohibition external code declaring entities having 
types defined on an org.apache.xxx class path.   Obvious cases are the 
provision of interfaces, declaration of subordinate classes, and declaration of 
instances of classes all defined for public use in org.apache.xxx... packages.  

I think any prohibition on *use* must be in the reverse direction.  The Apache 
project source code cannot have such dependencies on entities defined in an 
org.apache-extras.xxx... package.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Luciano Resende [mailto:luckbr1...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:24
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Some clarification needed for Apache Extra projects - Apache Extra 
in specific

[ ... ]

I'd also mention that the Apache Extras projects should not use
org.apache.xxx packages, but org.apache-extras.xxx package.


[ ... ]


-- 
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/

RE: Some clarification needed for Apache Extra projects - Apache Extra in specific

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Yes, I did presume that the case at hand involved incompatible licensing or the 
source code could be used in the Apache project without any fuss.  A Category B 
Java Package dependency would be awkward but I presume surmountable.



-Original Message-
From: Ross Gardler [mailto:rgard...@opendirective.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 13:56
To: Dennis Hamilton; dev@community.apache.org
Subject: RE: Some clarification needed for Apache Extra projects - Apache Extra 
in specific

Sent from my tablet
On Sep 27, 2012 9:51 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton orc...@apache.org wrote:


[ ... ]

 I think any prohibition on *use* must be in the reverse direction.  The
Apache project source code cannot have such dependencies on entities
defined in an org.apache-extras.xxx... package.


Why? Perhaps you are assuming that all code at extras is incompatibly
licensed, that is not the case, or perhaps you have some other reason in
mind.

Ross

  - Dennis

 -Original Message-
 From: Luciano Resende [mailto:luckbr1...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:24
 To: dev@community.apache.org
 Subject: Re: Some clarification needed for Apache Extra projects - Apache
Extra in specific

 [ ... ]

 I'd also mention that the Apache Extras projects should not use
 org.apache.xxx packages, but org.apache-extras.xxx package.


 [ ... ]


 --
 Luciano Resende
 http://people.apache.org/~lresende
 http://twitter.com/lresende1975
 http://lresende.blogspot.com/

RE: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

@Herbert

In general, anyone should recuse themselves from voting or simply not vote if 
there is concern for (perception of) conflict of interest of any sort.

There is no reason for someone calling a vote not to vote.  It happens in 
governments and it happens in standard structures for operating committees of 
various kinds.  Calling the vote is not casting a vote in those contexts 
either.  Calling for a vote (or initiating a [VOTE] thread) is for making 
progress to a definite outcome and is technically not the same as voting on the 
motion.

The only odd case about votes is typically when someone is sitting as a 
chairperson. In general, chairpersons (having not recused themselves) MAY vote 
when the vote cast makes a difference in the outcome, but SHALL NOT vote at any 
other time.  The chairperson is expected to remain neutral and only in the 
particular close case the chairperson may (but need not) cast a decisive vote.  
I believe that is the rule that governs the conduct of the Vice President of 
the United States when sitting as the chairperson of the US Senate.

Of course, the procedures and bylaws of a specific organization will determine 
how the specific combinations of cases are handled.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Herbert Duerr [mailto:h...@apache.org] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 04:50
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: Ross Gardler
Subject: Re: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?

Hi,

I was wondering how other projects under the ASF umbrella handle the 
question, whether the one calling a vote should always stay neutral or 
whether he should be allowed to cast his vote.

Or is it assumed that the one proposing a vote automatically approves 
his proposal with a +1?

I had found http://s.apache.org/IqE from the Avalon project that 
summarizes the voting process very well. My particular question wasn't 
answered in it though, so I discussed that topic with Ross Gardler, 
where he gave some good advise and allowed me to share it:
 You should vote. Unless you formally record your vote it will not be
 counted.

 In some cases other factors might make your impartiality questionable,
 e.g. you may be nominating a new committee who is a work colleague. In
 such circumstances you may choose to declare your relationship when you
 make the nomination or when you vote. However, since everyone is an
 individual in the ASF this is not required.

 If there is a genuine conflict of interest you need to recuse yourself
 from the vote. This might happen in circumstances such as requesting PMC
 approval of the projects trademarks for an event sponsored by your employer.

Are there additional criteria one should consider or are there any other 
opinions on this topic?

Herbert

RE: Apache Extras Question

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I think this situation is very clear-cut.  

The only two ways an Apache namespace should show up in an Apache Extras 
project is 

 (1) for something of Apache that the project depends on: an external 
dependency, and  

 (2) for a conforming implementation of a type that is defined by an Apache 
project

What should not happen is introduction of new org.apache.* types that are not 
under the authority of an Apache project.  That's true *anywhere* outside of an 
Apache project, not just for Apache Extras.

This is no different than if the namespace is java.* or com.microsoft.*, etc.  
It is not for an external project to improve or extend.  You might have more 
luck with gov.nasa.jpl.* but not without permission, aye?

While there is probably next-to-nothing in the specifications (i.e., section 
7.7 of the Java Specification, 3rd edition) for namespaces that deals with 
authority and authoritative use, using one that has a domain over which I am 
not the authority seems toxic and certainly abusive of an important de facto 
protocol.  Technically, making definitions in another's namespace structure 
violates the notion of distributed authority and assurance of unique, 
non-colliding identifiers.

That ASF experts here see it as a trademark issue is sufficient cautioning, I'd 
say.

 - Dennis



-Original Message-
From: Mattmann, Chris A (388J) [mailto:chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov] 
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 11:19
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Apache Extras Question

Hey Mike,

Thanks for your reply. I get the analogy. More comments below.

On Dec 29, 2011, at 10:47 AM, Mike Kienenberger wrote:
 [...snip...]
 You, as an ASF member and PMC chair are equivalent to the employee in
 this scenario.   Even though you are an ASF member or PMC chair, you
 do not have the right to use the company assets without permission.

Yeah that's why I'm asking for permission. The only asset I want to use
is the org.apache namespace for my Apache Extras project. I think
Extras should allow me (and others in my situation) to do that.

[ ... ]

RE: Teams and Leads - where leadership lives (sermonette warning)

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I notice that, moved over here, there is some missing context.

There started to be talk about creating teams and leads, and Greg Stein 
remarked that we should be wary about divisions of responsibility, making teams 
and especially anointing leaders and leads.

I also see, below, that I spoke of teams and teamwork too, and I think that 
translates here as speaking to what gives cohesiveness to the 
fluid/self-selected community that is acting on behalf of a particular project 
as teamwork, not that there are designated teams.

Another way I have heard this spoken of is something like this: leadership 
arises in the space we create by empowering leadership among us.  Leadership 
emerges.  

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Ross Gardler [mailto:rgard...@opendirective.com] 
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 15:20
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Fwd: Teams and Leads - where leadership lives (sermonette warning)

I thought I'd share this excellent Sermonette posted by Dennis
Hamilton on the new OpenOffice.org incubator projects dev mailing
list. I think it's a great post illustrating some very appropriate and
useful observations from a newcomer to The Apache Way.

I know I found it educational, I hope you appreciate it too.

Ross


-- Forwarded message --
From: Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org
Date: 16 June 2011 19:27
Subject: RE: Teams and Leads - where leadership lives (sermonette warning)
To: ooo-...@incubator.apache.org


I think we should take Greg literally on this.

There has been more discussion, and I see us coming together.  And
there is work for us to do in fostering leadership and having a
successful and fulfilling project.

 - Dennis

SERMONETTE

I know, in my case, this will take some awkward and uncomfortable
transformation of how I see myself in the context of coordinated
activities.  I'm already seeing, on the PPMC, that it takes something
to learn to function by consensus inspired by shared commitment rather
than other, often-personal considerations.  I say that it is mutual
commitment that carries the day every time.  (Everyone is here because
they want to be, whether or not it turns out to be what we were
expecting.)

Also, a crucial feature, and I see it reflected in subsequent
discussion on this thread, is that participants take *ownership* of
the project.  (I don't mean possession or having it be property.  I am
not sure how ownership translates here.  It is the term I know for
this.)  It is our project.  That's also uncomfortable for some
(certainly for me), because it means making ourselves responsible for
the outcome and doing so willingly.  It is a feature of teamwork that
all of the team own the team results as their own.

And for all of this, we must trust each other to govern ourselves and
trust the process to work rather than give in to whatever fears we
might have about how things might go.  (That is something this has in
common with democracy.)  Team-mates do that, families do that.
Sometimes communities and nations manage to do that.

It is also uncomfortable that we have no common history to rely on.
Misunderstandings will occur often. We do not know each other very
well, if at all, and are learning how to collaborate as a new
organization involving a different mix of players than may have
existed in the past.  We will doubtless shed some blood and tears
together before we learn that it can all work out and is working out
(whether or not to our liking).  It is the (unarticulated) mutual
commitment that carries us through, just as it happens when there is
friction in successful families.

I also notice something else in my exposure to the Apache Way in
this short time.  There is considerable attention on how we train
ourselves and work to foster leadership in others.  It is as if, no
matter who comes and goes, there can always be a sufficient group of
participants having both the commitment and the preparation to carry
on the project *and* continue the cultivation and development of more
participants.  It is that the project succeed, no matter who the
participants are.  And participants have a satisfying and fulfilling
experience so long as being here aligns with their commitments.

WHERE LEADERSHIP LIVES

I've been in training exercises and leadership programs of one variety
or another in the 50+ year course of my career and
personal-development efforts.  One characteristic that I have seen
demonstrated is this: leadership arises and moves among the
participants of a group effort as the activity progresses and as
discussions proceed.  It is not about leader but leadership and that
it is not fixed in individuals but in a response to a perceived
opportunity, attention on some issue, at-hand experience, and so on.
We all nurture leadership in how we sustain the movement of the effort
forward.

I think those who have worked in volunteer software teams and other
volunteer activities have seen this work (and have seen it not work
when

RE: Apache project guidelines docs += independence?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

In the proposed Committers page, 
http://community.staging.apache.org/committers/index.html,

1. There must be a better title than New Committer Handling.   I think 
Assessing New Committers would be better.  Anything would be better.

2. In the last paragraph on Project Independence, The goal is to createan 
environemnt ... should be The goal is to create an environment ...

3. Also, on the staged NewCommitter page, 
http://community.staging.apache.org/newcommitter.html,

Under the main Guidelines heading, first paragraph, Apache Forrest committer 
fuidelines should be Apache Forrest committer guidelines.
 
 - Dennis

PS: Indeed yes, I am nosing around here because of the OOo proposal to the 
incubator.



-Original Message-
From: Ross Gardler [mailto:rgard...@apache.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 15:39
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Apache project guidelines docs += independence?

On 20/05/2011 15:07, Ross Gardler wrote:
 On 20/05/2011 14:35, Shane Curcuru wrote:
[ ... ]

 I've put the content in the staging area. I have *not* proofed it or 
 made any edits. Those who had improvements please make them and 
 publish the site.

It seems nobody has made those edits and I'm happy with it as is. Given the OOo 
proposal to the incubator I think it is important that this is public so that, 
if necessary, we can point people at it.

Ross

[ ... ]

 http://community.staging.apache.org/committers/index.html

 Ross