Re: A way to keep the name

[Sam Ruby]

On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 9:49 PM Walter Cameron
 wrote:
>
> > YOU MUST NOT reach out to ANYONE on behalf of the Apache Software
> > Foundation without coordinating with M&P. Without their approval, you
> > are NOT authorized to speak on behalf of the ASF, or put yourself in a
> > position where it appears that you are doing so.
>
> For those of us who don’t have access to the internal deliberations on this
> topic can you offer any update? Is outreach something membership or M&P is
> still interested in pursuing with regards to understanding the impact of
> their brand? If so, what kind of outreach are they envisioning?

Permit me to rephrase Rich's request.

Build a plan.  Bring it before M&P (specifically Joe Brockmeier) prior
to execution.

> Gunalchéesh,
> Walter

- Sam Ruby

> On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 4:36 AM  wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2022-05-11 at 14:56 -0400, me wrote:
> > > This is more or less in line with what I think we’ve anticipated. I
> > > really appreciate you providing the info.
> > >
> > > That said… to outreach or not to outreach… that is the question.
> >
> > So ... I have been staying out of this conversation rather
> > intentionally for a number of reasons, but I feel I must speak up here.
> >
> > YOU MUST NOT reach out to ANYONE on behalf of the Apache Software
> > Foundation without coordinating with M&P. Without their approval, you
> > are NOT authorized to speak on behalf of the ASF, or put yourself in a
> > position where it appears that you are doing so.
> >
> >
> > Please forgive if I am coming across stronger than warranted here, but
> > this is a line that you MUST NOT cross without the approval of M&P.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > --Rich, with Board of Directors hat on.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > I’m going to try to remain impartial in order to facilitate. (i.e.
> > > this isn’t my opinion, I’m just trying to help move things forward).
> > >
> > > The scenario w/ Jeep is the most synonymous to Apache. (We are named
> > > for a tribe, rather than a synonymous term or epithet). I’m side
> > > stepping the logo for the moment.
> > >
> > > The last words I could find on the subject (w/ a brief scan) were
> > > March of 2021
> > >
> > > - Chief Hoskins of the Cherokee Nation did request a name change from
> > > Jeep.
> > > - Jeep opened up talks, but they didn’t comply.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Roman Shaposhnik 
> > > Reply: Roman Shaposhnik 
> > > Date: May 9, 2022 at 09:52:47
> > > To: me 
> > > Cc: ComDev 
> > > Subject:  Re: A way to keep the name
> > >
> > > On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 4:35 PM me  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Roman, welcome to the party!
> > >
> > > LOL! Thanks ;-)
> > >
> > > > I think the scope of the risk (in terms of “what”) is fairly well
> > > > understood. Did you also estimate the probability of the risks?
> > > > (i.e. likelihood?)
> > >
> > > IIRC mostly the likelihood.
> > >
> > > > Do you mind sharing what the results were of the previous
> > > > assessment?
> > >
> > > It was deemed to be low: primarily based on our historic use of the
> > > name (we have been pretty respectful with it) and the fact that
> > > whoever brings the lawsuit will have to have a standing.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Roman.
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
> >

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Re: A way to keep the name

[Walter Cameron]

> YOU MUST NOT reach out to ANYONE on behalf of the Apache Software
> Foundation without coordinating with M&P. Without their approval, you
> are NOT authorized to speak on behalf of the ASF, or put yourself in a
> position where it appears that you are doing so.

For those of us who don’t have access to the internal deliberations on this
topic can you offer any update? Is outreach something membership or M&P is
still interested in pursuing with regards to understanding the impact of
their brand? If so, what kind of outreach are they envisioning?

Gunalchéesh,
Walter


On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 4:36 AM  wrote:

> On Wed, 2022-05-11 at 14:56 -0400, me wrote:
> > This is more or less in line with what I think we’ve anticipated. I
> > really appreciate you providing the info.
> >
> > That said… to outreach or not to outreach… that is the question.
>
> So ... I have been staying out of this conversation rather
> intentionally for a number of reasons, but I feel I must speak up here.
>
> YOU MUST NOT reach out to ANYONE on behalf of the Apache Software
> Foundation without coordinating with M&P. Without their approval, you
> are NOT authorized to speak on behalf of the ASF, or put yourself in a
> position where it appears that you are doing so.
>
>
> Please forgive if I am coming across stronger than warranted here, but
> this is a line that you MUST NOT cross without the approval of M&P.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --Rich, with Board of Directors hat on.
>
>
>
>
> > I’m going to try to remain impartial in order to facilitate. (i.e.
> > this isn’t my opinion, I’m just trying to help move things forward).
> >
> > The scenario w/ Jeep is the most synonymous to Apache. (We are named
> > for a tribe, rather than a synonymous term or epithet). I’m side
> > stepping the logo for the moment.
> >
> > The last words I could find on the subject (w/ a brief scan) were
> > March of 2021
> >
> > - Chief Hoskins of the Cherokee Nation did request a name change from
> > Jeep.
> > - Jeep opened up talks, but they didn’t comply.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Roman Shaposhnik 
> > Reply: Roman Shaposhnik 
> > Date: May 9, 2022 at 09:52:47
> > To: me 
> > Cc: ComDev 
> > Subject:  Re: A way to keep the name
> >
> > On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 4:35 PM me  wrote:
> > >
> > > Roman, welcome to the party!
> >
> > LOL! Thanks ;-)
> >
> > > I think the scope of the risk (in terms of “what”) is fairly well
> > > understood. Did you also estimate the probability of the risks?
> > > (i.e. likelihood?)
> >
> > IIRC mostly the likelihood.
> >
> > > Do you mind sharing what the results were of the previous
> > > assessment?
> >
> > It was deemed to be low: primarily based on our historic use of the
> > name (we have been pretty respectful with it) and the fact that
> > whoever brings the lawsuit will have to have a standing.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roman.
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: A way to keep the name

[me]

On Wed, 2022-05-11 at 14:56 -0400, me wrote:
> This is more or less in line with what I think we’ve 
anticipated. I
> really appreciate you providing the info. 
> 
> That said… to outreach or not to outreach… that is the 
question. 

So ... I have been staying out of this conversation rather
intentionally for a number of reasons, but I feel I must speak up here.

YOU MUST NOT reach out to ANYONE on behalf of the Apache Software
Foundation without coordinating with M&P. Without their approval, you
are NOT authorized to speak on behalf of the ASF, or put yourself in a
position where it appears that you are doing so.


Please forgive if I am coming across stronger than warranted here, but
this is a line that you MUST NOT cross without the approval of M&P.

Thanks.

--Rich, with Board of Directors hat on.




> I’m going to try to remain impartial in order to facilitate. 
(i.e.
> this isn’t my opinion, I’m just trying to help move 
things forward).
> 
> The scenario w/ Jeep is the most synonymous to Apache. (We are named
> for a tribe, rather than a synonymous term or epithet). I’m side
> stepping the logo for the moment. 
> 
> The last words I could find on the subject (w/ a brief scan) were
> March of 2021
> 
> - Chief Hoskins of the Cherokee Nation did request a name change from
> Jeep. 
> - Jeep opened up talks, but they didn’t comply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> Reply: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> Date: May 9, 2022 at 09:52:47
> To: me <m...@emangini.com>
> Cc: ComDev <dev@community.apache.org>
> Subject:  Re: A way to keep the name  
> 
> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 4:35 PM me <m...@emangini.com> 
wrote:  
> >  
> > Roman, welcome to the party!  
> 
> LOL! Thanks ;-)  
> 
> > I think the scope of the risk (in terms of “what”) 
is fairly well
> > understood. Did you also estimate the probability of the risks?
> > (i.e. likelihood?)  
> 
> IIRC mostly the likelihood.  
> 
> > Do you mind sharing what the results were of the previous
> > assessment?  
> 
> It was deemed to be low: primarily based on our historic use of 
the  
> name (we have been pretty respectful with it) and the fact that  
> whoever brings the lawsuit will have to have a standing.  
> 
> Thanks,  
> Roman.  


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Re: A way to keep the name

[rbowen]

On Wed, 2022-05-11 at 14:56 -0400, me wrote:
> This is more or less in line with what I think we’ve anticipated. I
> really appreciate you providing the info. 
> 
> That said… to outreach or not to outreach… that is the question. 

So ... I have been staying out of this conversation rather
intentionally for a number of reasons, but I feel I must speak up here.

YOU MUST NOT reach out to ANYONE on behalf of the Apache Software
Foundation without coordinating with M&P. Without their approval, you
are NOT authorized to speak on behalf of the ASF, or put yourself in a
position where it appears that you are doing so.


Please forgive if I am coming across stronger than warranted here, but
this is a line that you MUST NOT cross without the approval of M&P.

Thanks.

--Rich, with Board of Directors hat on.




> I’m going to try to remain impartial in order to facilitate. (i.e.
> this isn’t my opinion, I’m just trying to help move things forward).
> 
> The scenario w/ Jeep is the most synonymous to Apache. (We are named
> for a tribe, rather than a synonymous term or epithet). I’m side
> stepping the logo for the moment. 
> 
> The last words I could find on the subject (w/ a brief scan) were
> March of 2021
> 
> - Chief Hoskins of the Cherokee Nation did request a name change from
> Jeep. 
> - Jeep opened up talks, but they didn’t comply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Roman Shaposhnik 
> Reply: Roman Shaposhnik 
> Date: May 9, 2022 at 09:52:47
> To: me 
> Cc: ComDev 
> Subject:  Re: A way to keep the name  
> 
> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 4:35 PM me  wrote:  
> >  
> > Roman, welcome to the party!  
> 
> LOL! Thanks ;-)  
> 
> > I think the scope of the risk (in terms of “what”) is fairly well
> > understood. Did you also estimate the probability of the risks?
> > (i.e. likelihood?)  
> 
> IIRC mostly the likelihood.  
> 
> > Do you mind sharing what the results were of the previous
> > assessment?  
> 
> It was deemed to be low: primarily based on our historic use of the  
> name (we have been pretty respectful with it) and the fact that  
> whoever brings the lawsuit will have to have a standing.  
> 
> Thanks,  
> Roman.  


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Re: A way to keep the name

[me]

To your point, it hasn’t gone over well. It doesn’t seem to have impacted sales 
(at least as far as I can tell), but they did create a brand spankin’ new Jeep 
Grand Cherokee for 2022. 

While I’m drawing a parallel based on the semantics of name usage (i.e. Apache 
is a nation name, Cherokee is a nation name), their circumstance has a much 
easier solution. Discontinuing an automobile “name” is a lot easier than 
rebranding an entire organization. 

They can still be Jeep. 

From: Bill Cole 
Reply: dev@community.apache.org 
Date: May 11, 2022 at 15:31:49
To: ComDev 
Subject:  Re: A way to keep the name  

On 2022-05-11 at 14:56:13 UTC-0400 (Wed, 11 May 2022 14:56:13 -0400)  
me   
is rumored to have said:  

> The scenario w/ Jeep is the most synonymous to Apache. (We are named  
> for a tribe, rather than a synonymous term or epithet). I’m side  
> stepping the logo for the moment.   
>  
> The last words I could find on the subject (w/ a brief scan) were  
> March of 2021  
>  
> - Chief Hoskins of the Cherokee Nation did request a name change from  
> Jeep.   
> - Jeep opened up talks, but they didn’t comply.  

Back in the mists of time I worked for Chrysler (then parent of Jeep)  
and there was briefly a kerfuffle over Jeep's "Cherokee" appropriation,  
as it is an issue that comes up episodically and never is resolved. I  
did not follow the public statements at the time, but the phrase that  
stuck with me from internal communications was "pound sand." I'm a bit  
surprised that they engaged further more recently, but times do change.  

I absolutely do not think ASF should replicate that stance.  

--  
Bill Cole  

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To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org  
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Re: A way to keep the name

[Bill Cole]

On 2022-05-11 at 14:56:13 UTC-0400 (Wed, 11 May 2022 14:56:13 -0400)
me 
is rumored to have said:

The scenario w/ Jeep is the most synonymous to Apache. (We are named 
for a tribe, rather than a synonymous term or epithet). I’m side 
stepping the logo for the moment. 


The last words I could find on the subject (w/ a brief scan) were 
March of 2021


- Chief Hoskins of the Cherokee Nation did request a name change from 
Jeep. 

- Jeep opened up talks, but they didn’t comply.


Back in the mists of time I worked for Chrysler (then parent of Jeep) 
and there was briefly a kerfuffle over Jeep's "Cherokee" appropriation, 
as it is an issue that comes up episodically and never is resolved. I 
did not follow the public statements at the time, but the phrase that 
stuck with me from internal communications was "pound sand." I'm a bit 
surprised that they engaged further more recently, but times do change.


I absolutely do not think ASF should replicate that stance.

--
Bill Cole

-
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Re: A way to keep the name

[me]

This is more or less in line with what I think we’ve anticipated. I really 
appreciate you providing the info. 

That said… to outreach or not to outreach… that is the question. 

—

I’m going to try to remain impartial in order to facilitate. (i.e. this isn’t 
my opinion, I’m just trying to help move things forward).

The scenario w/ Jeep is the most synonymous to Apache. (We are named for a 
tribe, rather than a synonymous term or epithet). I’m side stepping the logo 
for the moment. 

The last words I could find on the subject (w/ a brief scan) were March of 2021

- Chief Hoskins of the Cherokee Nation did request a name change from Jeep. 
- Jeep opened up talks, but they didn’t comply.




From: Roman Shaposhnik 
Reply: Roman Shaposhnik 
Date: May 9, 2022 at 09:52:47
To: me 
Cc: ComDev 
Subject:  Re: A way to keep the name  

On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 4:35 PM me  wrote:  
>  
> Roman, welcome to the party!  

LOL! Thanks ;-)  

> I think the scope of the risk (in terms of “what”) is fairly well understood. 
> Did you also estimate the probability of the risks? (i.e. likelihood?)  

IIRC mostly the likelihood.  

> Do you mind sharing what the results were of the previous assessment?  

It was deemed to be low: primarily based on our historic use of the  
name (we have been pretty respectful with it) and the fact that  
whoever brings the lawsuit will have to have a standing.  

Thanks,  
Roman.  

Re: A way to keep the name

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 4:35 PM me  wrote:
>
> Roman, welcome to the party!

LOL! Thanks ;-)

> I think the scope of the risk (in terms of “what”) is fairly well understood. 
> Did you also estimate the probability of the risks? (i.e. likelihood?)

IIRC mostly the likelihood.

> Do you mind sharing what the results were of the previous assessment?

It was deemed to be low: primarily based on our historic use of the
name (we have been pretty respectful with it) and the fact that
whoever brings the lawsuit will have to have a standing.

Thanks,
Roman.

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

Re: A way to keep the name

[me]

Roman, welcome to the party!

I think the scope of the risk (in terms of “what”) is fairly well understood. 
Did you also estimate the probability of the risks? (i.e. likelihood?) 
 
Do you mind sharing what the results were of the previous assessment? 





From: Roman Shaposhnik 
Reply: dev@community.apache.org 
Date: May 9, 2022 at 05:46:43
To: ComDev 
Subject:  Re: A way to keep the name  

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 6:54 PM me  wrote:  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Subject: Re: A way to keep the name  
>  
> I think it's a good idea to make such a fund or simply make sure that  
> existing efforts (TAC, Outreachy engagement) have some deliberate and  
> conscious actions in this direction - knowing the past association - and  
> showing the respect and following the original mindset of people who  
> created the foundation.  
> I want to re-iterate that we have to proceed with caution here. We’re making 
> assumptions based on western culture and values. The way funds are made 
> available has to be approached carefully. A scholarship or social award might 
> be more diplomatic? I can’t speak for the Apache, but I can re-iterate that 
> trying this w/ some nations is going to be received as offensive.  
>  
>  
>  
> Just one comment here - I stated my opinion in the member's discussions -  
> that's my personal view of course, that there is nothing to repair as there  
> is no damage and simply de-association of Apache name while also showing  
> the respect and engage community to actively work on de-associating is a  
> better way of handling the issue than any repair.  
> How do we know that there is no damage or repair until we speak with them?  
>  
>  
>  
> Using the word "reparation" here is certainly not the one I'd use. It might  
> be good will and sign of respect, but in no-way it should bring any  
> obligation on the ASF.  
>  
> If I see "Association with permission" is extremely dangerous for the  
> foundation that worked 20 years on the brand being it's most valuable asset  
> (without the real piggy-backing on the Apache Tribe in order to build the  
> reputation). Just having "permission" from others on the important asset of  
> the ASF foundation brand depending on non-member decisions might also be  
> illegal from the foundation bylaws (I am not a lawyer and certainly do not  
> know much about US law). This would basically mean that we put the fate of  
> the foundation in the hands of non-members.  
>  
>  
> I don’t mean to nudge here, but I’m going to.  
>  
> I want to be very open that I don’t necessarily agree with the “change the 
> name at all costs approach”. Maybe I’m naive, but I find a romantic element 
> to having organizations that can share a name with a group of people that 
> represents the characteristics of those people, while maintaining a 
> consistent responsibility to represent them cooperatively.  
>  
> That said, I also recognize we live in a polarizing social climate, so I feel 
> it is a responsible direction to hear the tribe and hear what they have to 
> say to determine if a problem exists. My only caution with the approach is 
> that it is temporary. We could find out it doesn’t bother anyone today, only 
> to have it revisited in X amount of time to find that it is no longer 
> acceptable. I don’t personally understand the problem well enough to know 
> what the degree or stability of those relationships and perceptions are.  
>  
> I understand the apprehension to the word “permission’. If I can put this in 
> radical terms, how would you feel if I started a software foundation called 
> the Jarek Potiuk foundation?  
> Then I would create a name page similar to 
> https://www.apache.org/apache-name/ Most of the verbiage would be respectful, 
> and would pay homage to an inspiring colleague “Jarek Potiuk"  
>  
> Then in some fashion like this -> As the Apache HTTP Server grew from patches 
> applied to the NCSA Server, a pun on the name quickly spread amongst members 
> of the community, with the rumor being that “Apache” actually stood for “a 
> ‘patchy’ server”. As time passed, the popularity of the “A Patchy Server” 
> story grew: rumor became lore, and lore became legend.  
>  
> I would write… "as an open source project, each of us brought our own spice 
> to the software, very much like a ‘potluck’ dish. Given the similarities in 
> the name we called it internally a “Potluck Foundation”…etc.  
>  
> Maybe you are ok with it. Maybe not. Maybe your family and descendants aren’t 
> ok with it later. Either way, that is your name, and you have every right in 
> this country (US) to tell us not to use it. If we don’t comply, and you sue 
> us, we can 

Re: A way to keep the name

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 6:54 PM me  wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Subject:  Re: A way to keep the name
>
> I think it's a good idea to make such a fund or simply make sure that
> existing efforts (TAC, Outreachy engagement) have some deliberate and
> conscious actions in this direction - knowing the past association - and
> showing the respect and following the original mindset of people who
> created the foundation.
> I want to re-iterate that we have to proceed with caution here. We’re making 
> assumptions based on western culture and values. The way funds are made 
> available has to be approached carefully. A scholarship or social award might 
> be more diplomatic? I can’t speak for the Apache, but I can re-iterate that 
> trying this w/ some nations is going to be received as offensive.
>
>
>
> Just one comment here - I stated my opinion in the member's discussions -
> that's my personal view of course, that there is nothing to repair as there
> is no damage and simply de-association of Apache name while also showing
> the respect and engage community to actively work on de-associating is a
> better way of handling the issue than any repair.
> How do we know that there is no damage or repair until we speak with them?
>
>
>
> Using the word "reparation" here is certainly not the one I'd use. It might
> be good will and sign of respect, but in no-way it should bring any
> obligation on the ASF.
>
> If I see "Association with permission" is extremely dangerous for the
> foundation that worked 20 years on the brand being it's most valuable asset
> (without the real piggy-backing on the Apache Tribe in order to build the
> reputation). Just having "permission" from others on the important asset of
> the ASF foundation brand depending on non-member decisions might also be
> illegal from the foundation bylaws (I am not a lawyer and certainly do not
> know much about US law). This would basically mean that we put the fate of
> the foundation in the hands of non-members.
>
>
> I don’t mean to nudge here, but I’m going to.
>
> I want to be very open that I don’t necessarily agree with the “change the 
> name at all costs approach”. Maybe I’m naive, but I find a romantic element 
> to having organizations that can share a name with a group of people that 
> represents the characteristics of those people, while maintaining a 
> consistent responsibility to represent them cooperatively.
>
> That said, I also recognize we live in a polarizing social climate, so I feel 
> it is a responsible direction to hear the tribe and hear what they have to 
> say to determine if a problem exists. My only caution with the approach is 
> that it is temporary. We could find out it doesn’t bother anyone today, only 
> to have it revisited in X amount of time to find that it is no longer 
> acceptable. I don’t personally understand the problem well enough to know 
> what the degree or stability of those relationships and perceptions are.
>
> I understand the apprehension to the word “permission’. If I can put this in 
> radical terms, how would you feel if I started a software foundation called 
> the Jarek Potiuk foundation?
> Then I would create a name page similar to 
> https://www.apache.org/apache-name/  Most of the verbiage would be 
> respectful, and would pay homage to an inspiring colleague “Jarek Potiuk"
>
> Then in some fashion like this -> As the Apache HTTP Server grew from patches 
> applied to the NCSA Server, a pun on the name quickly spread amongst members 
> of the community, with the rumor being that “Apache” actually stood for “a 
> ‘patchy’ server”. As time passed, the popularity of the “A Patchy Server” 
> story grew: rumor became lore, and lore became legend.
>
> I would write… "as an open source project, each of us brought our own spice 
> to the software, very much like a ‘potluck’ dish. Given the similarities in 
> the name we called it internally a  “Potluck Foundation”…etc.
>
> Maybe you are ok with it. Maybe not. Maybe your family and descendants aren’t 
> ok with it later. Either way, that is your name, and you have every right in 
> this country (US) to tell us not to use it. If we don’t comply, and you sue 
> us, we can lose the right to use the name as well as be penalized 
> financially. (Apologies if this offends. I’m trying to demonstrate a 
> parallel.)
>
> There is a causal relationship between the foundation’s name and the Apache 
> people based on the link provided above.
>
> What I’m going to suggest as the following is an extreme case. However, it 
> can’t be ignored. There is legal precedent for companies being sued in the 
> United States over the use of tribal names. (O

Re: A way to keep the name

[me]

Owen, 

You’re conflating different aspects of the circumstances. 
(Are you not from the US? Sorry for my ignorance. I’m just trying to better 
understand your position.) 

1.) Business Risk. 

Our brand name has a causal relationship with an indigenous people. Regardless 
of our reputation or status, that indigenous people has the claim to the naming 
and branding based on existing legal precedent in the United States. This 
presents a business risk to the foundation and license. It would be in the best 
interest of the foundation to evaluate that risk. 

This problem exists whether it is dormant or active. I’m going to hand wave for 
brevity, but I’m happy to take this offline to explain it further. 

Yes, the ASF is a business. It may be a Non-Profit, Open Source Business, but 
we create products that are consumed. 

Profit and intent are irrelevant. There is no barrier (legally, socially or in 
business) that makes these concepts a means for separation or dismissal of 
complaints should they arise. 

2.) Social Impact. 

There have been several attempts to try to use the non-profit structure to 
differentiate the ASF from sports teams. The example of sports teams is to 
demonstrate social climate and its impact on businesses. 
(NOTE: Jeep proactively engaged with the Cherokee nation, based on the articles 
previously shared. There was no complaint.) Their effort was derived from 
recognizing current social climate. 

Tying this back to business… being proactive is a due diligence factor: “What 
is the risk of continuing to perform action X?”

Again. Profit and intent are irrelevant. There is no barrier (legally, socially 
or in business) that makes these concepts a means for separation or dismissal 
of complaints should they arise. 

—

To your point about jumping the gun:

Maybe? This thread started with Walter’s sentiments. Those are derived 
categorically from social impact/climate. Walter suggested that there had been 
inquiries, I believe? For a moment, let’s say that there isn’t. Does that 
matter? 

Social Climate is not subject to logic or math. Cherokee could flat out endorse 
Jeep, and Apache could sue us. (Or vice versa). 

There is a much larger issue than just a “read the room effort” to rebrand. We 
have a responsibility to the community as a whole to ensure that the products 
are safe to consume going forward in the presence of risk. Personally, this is 
my primary concern (and core to my involvement.)









From: Owen Rubel 
Reply: dev@community.apache.org 
Date: May 5, 2022 at 12:11:21
To: dev@community.apache.org 
Subject:  Re: A way to keep the name  

This issue still is that we are jumping the gun.  

Has any REPRESENTATIVE from the Apache Nation filed a complaint or reached  
out?  

You may be creating a problem that does not exist. If we are doing good  
will, it may be noticed and not seen as an issue.  

Apache Foundation is a non-profit and not a baseball team that profits off  
the Apache Nation creating offensive hand gestures, etc.  

This may be a non-issue from the start and you are creating an issue when  
no REPRESENTATIVE has made a statement or complained.  

Owen Rubel  
oru...@gmail.com  


On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 11:05 AM Andrew Wetmore  wrote:  

> Hi, all.  
>  
> We have a very long thread on the possibility of changing the name of our  
> foundation, and the complex work involved. I may have missed it in the  
> back-and-forth, but is there not another way forward?  
>  
> What if we established an offering of value to members of the Apache Nation  
> (defined by the eight tribes) that attaches a benefit to the existing  
> perceived connection between our use of the word "Apache" and theirs? Such  
> a package could start small, but grow toward something that is much more  
> useful than the "one peppercorn per annum" which is the legal term in  
> England to describe a nominal rent.  
>  
> The package could begin with elements that we already have in our hands  
> made available to members of the Apache Nation:  
>  
> - travel assistance to attend ApacheCon  
> - advanced access to the Google Summer of Code  
> - assistance within our realms of expertise with technical infrastructure  
> or code-development issues the Apache Nation faces  
>  
> On such a basis we could solicit additional "goods" to grow the package:  
>  
> - a scholarship fund to enable study in software development  
> - internships with corporations that are ASF sponsors  
>  
> Others among you will have much better ideas than those I have just tossed  
> into the ring. Please suggest them.  
>  
> This approach makes a positive out of what some perceive as a negative, as  
> we grow a coincidental relationship into one of real value to the people of  
> the Apache Nation.  
>  
> a  
> --  
> Andrew Wetmore  
>  
> Editor, Moose House Publications <https://moosehousepress.com/>  
> Editor-Writer, The Apache Software Foundation <https://apache.org/>  
>  

Re: A way to keep the name

[Owen Rubel]

This issue still is that we are jumping the gun.

Has any REPRESENTATIVE from the Apache Nation filed a complaint or reached
out?

You may be creating a problem that does not exist. If we are doing good
will, it may be noticed and not seen as an issue.

Apache Foundation is a non-profit and not a baseball team that profits off
the Apache Nation creating offensive hand gestures, etc.

This may be a non-issue from the start and you are creating an issue when
no REPRESENTATIVE has made a statement or complained.

Owen Rubel
oru...@gmail.com


On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 11:05 AM Andrew Wetmore  wrote:

> Hi, all.
>
> We have a very long thread on the possibility of changing the name of our
> foundation, and the complex work involved. I may have missed it in the
> back-and-forth, but is there not another way forward?
>
> What if we established an offering of value to members of the Apache Nation
> (defined by the eight tribes) that attaches a benefit to the existing
> perceived connection between our use of the word "Apache" and theirs? Such
> a package could start small, but grow toward something that is much more
> useful than the "one peppercorn per annum" which is the legal term in
> England to describe  a nominal rent.
>
> The package could begin with elements that we already have in our hands
> made available to members of the Apache Nation:
>
>   - travel assistance to attend ApacheCon
>   - advanced access to the Google Summer of Code
>   - assistance within our realms of expertise with technical infrastructure
> or code-development issues the Apache Nation faces
>
> On such a basis we could solicit additional "goods" to grow the package:
>
>   - a scholarship fund to enable study in software development
>   - internships with corporations that are ASF sponsors
>
> Others among you will have much better ideas than those I have just tossed
> into the ring. Please suggest them.
>
> This approach makes a positive out of what some perceive as a negative, as
> we grow a coincidental relationship into one of real value to the people of
> the Apache Nation.
>
> a
> --
> Andrew Wetmore
>
> Editor, Moose House Publications 
> Editor-Writer, The Apache Software Foundation 
>

Re: A way to keep the name

[me]

Subject:  Re: A way to keep the name  

I think it's a good idea to make such a fund or simply make sure that 
existing efforts (TAC, Outreachy engagement) have some deliberate and 
conscious actions in this direction - knowing the past association - and 
showing the respect and following the original mindset of people who 
created the foundation. 
I want to re-iterate that we have to proceed with caution here. We’re making 
assumptions based on western culture and values. The way funds are made 
available has to be approached carefully. A scholarship or social award might 
be more diplomatic? I can’t speak for the Apache, but I can re-iterate that 
trying this w/ some nations is going to be received as offensive. 



Just one comment here - I stated my opinion in the member's discussions - 
that's my personal view of course, that there is nothing to repair as there 
is no damage and simply de-association of Apache name while also showing 
the respect and engage community to actively work on de-associating is a 
better way of handling the issue than any repair. 
How do we know that there is no damage or repair until we speak with them? 



Using the word "reparation" here is certainly not the one I'd use. It might 
be good will and sign of respect, but in no-way it should bring any 
obligation on the ASF. 

If I see "Association with permission" is extremely dangerous for the 
foundation that worked 20 years on the brand being it's most valuable asset 
(without the real piggy-backing on the Apache Tribe in order to build the 
reputation). Just having "permission" from others on the important asset of 
the ASF foundation brand depending on non-member decisions might also be 
illegal from the foundation bylaws (I am not a lawyer and certainly do not 
know much about US law). This would basically mean that we put the fate of 
the foundation in the hands of non-members. 


I don’t mean to nudge here, but I’m going to. 

I want to be very open that I don’t necessarily agree with the “change the name 
at all costs approach”. Maybe I’m naive, but I find a romantic element to 
having organizations that can share a name with a group of people that 
represents the characteristics of those people, while maintaining a consistent 
responsibility to represent them cooperatively. 

That said, I also recognize we live in a polarizing social climate, so I feel 
it is a responsible direction to hear the tribe and hear what they have to say 
to determine if a problem exists. My only caution with the approach is that it 
is temporary. We could find out it doesn’t bother anyone today, only to have it 
revisited in X amount of time to find that it is no longer acceptable. I don’t 
personally understand the problem well enough to know what the degree or 
stability of those relationships and perceptions are. 

I understand the apprehension to the word “permission’. If I can put this in 
radical terms, how would you feel if I started a software foundation called the 
Jarek Potiuk foundation? 
Then I would create a name page similar to https://www.apache.org/apache-name/  
Most of the verbiage would be respectful, and would pay homage to an inspiring 
colleague “Jarek Potiuk"

Then in some fashion like this -> As the Apache HTTP Server grew from patches 
applied to the NCSA Server, a pun on the name quickly spread amongst members of 
the community, with the rumor being that “Apache” actually stood for “a 
‘patchy’ server”. As time passed, the popularity of the “A Patchy Server” story 
grew: rumor became lore, and lore became legend.

I would write… "as an open source project, each of us brought our own spice to 
the software, very much like a ‘potluck’ dish. Given the similarities in the 
name we called it internally a  “Potluck Foundation”…etc.

Maybe you are ok with it. Maybe not. Maybe your family and descendants aren’t 
ok with it later. Either way, that is your name, and you have every right in 
this country (US) to tell us not to use it. If we don’t comply, and you sue us, 
we can lose the right to use the name as well as be penalized financially. 
(Apologies if this offends. I’m trying to demonstrate a parallel.) 

There is a causal relationship between the foundation’s name and the Apache 
people based on the link provided above. 

What I’m going to suggest as the following is an extreme case. However, it 
can’t be ignored. There is legal precedent for companies being sued in the 
United States over the use of tribal names. (One that immediately comes to mind 
is the Allergan case. They paid an annual $15 million dollar royalty to a 
Mohawk nation while the patents remained valid, as well as handed over those 
patents to the tribe. I believe Apple and Google have also both been sued in 
similar cases.)

As an open source body with no revenue, the common alternative is a cease and 
desist suit.

I’m not a lawyer either, but I have had to be involved 

Re: A way to keep the name

[Jarek Potiuk]

g direction than we appear to
> > be headed globally. (I suppose this is incredibly ironic when you
> consider
> > that I’m proposing social unification which is often considered to be the
> > reciprocal of tribalism)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Andrew Wetmore 
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org 
> > Date: May 4, 2022 at 14:05:48
> > To: dev@community.apache.org 
> > Subject:  A way to keep the name
> >
> > Hi, all.
> >
> > We have a very long thread on the possibility of changing the name of our
> > foundation, and the complex work involved. I may have missed it in the
> > back-and-forth, but is there not another way forward?
> >
> > What if we established an offering of value to members of the Apache
> > Nation
> > (defined by the eight tribes) that attaches a benefit to the existing
> > perceived connection between our use of the word "Apache" and theirs?
> > Such
> > a package could start small, but grow toward something that is much more
> > useful than the "one peppercorn per annum" which is the legal term in
> > England to describe a nominal rent.
> >
> > The package could begin with elements that we already have in our hands
> > made available to members of the Apache Nation:
> >
> > - travel assistance to attend ApacheCon
> > - advanced access to the Google Summer of Code
> > - assistance within our realms of expertise with technical infrastructure
> > or code-development issues the Apache Nation faces
> >
> > On such a basis we could solicit additional "goods" to grow the package:
> >
> > - a scholarship fund to enable study in software development
> > - internships with corporations that are ASF sponsors
> >
> > Others among you will have much better ideas than those I have just
> > tossed
> > into the ring. Please suggest them.
> >
> > This approach makes a positive out of what some perceive as a negative,
> > as
> > we grow a coincidental relationship into one of real value to the people
> > of
> > the Apache Nation.
> >
> > a
> > --
> > Andrew Wetmore
> >
> > Editor, Moose House Publications <https://moosehousepress.com/>
> > Editor-Writer, The Apache Software Foundation <https://apache.org/>
> >
>

Re: A way to keep the name

[Walter Cameron]

> members of the Apache Nation (defined by the eight tribes)

Choosing to use federal recognition as the litmus test for eligibility will
exclude many impacted by ASF’s appropriation of the term.

There are also state recognized tribes such as the Choctaw-Apache Community
of Ebarb who don’t yet have federal recognition. It’s also important to
keep in mind that many Native people live in Native communities and are
affected by such labels and stereotyping but for whatever reasons might not
be officially enrolled in their tribe.

Any sort of criteria for determining eligibility for reparations should be
as broad as possible.

I would also like to echo Ed’s warnings of the risks of time here. As we
are not Apache people ourselves, we are just a bunch of people that signed
up for a mailing list, we are not as attuned to the use of the term and how
people respond to it.


On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 10:39 AM me  wrote:

> This was somewhat covered (at a much higher level).  This falls into the
> category of ‘association with permission’. It’s somewhere between
> disassociation and what Jeep is doing (which is to determine if a problem
> exists w/ the specific tribe.)
>
> Each circumstance is unique. I looked through Jeep’s materials, and they
> have no documentation that links them directly to the Cherokee nation. We
> do. With such an explicit relationship, perception (of that relationship)
> is fairly black and white. On the flip side, it does give us more
> steps/milestones if we do define a problem.
>
> I think what is challenging to communicate is the difference between the
> Washington/Cleveland sports team cases, and Jeep/ASF.
>
> Washington/Cleveland is cut and dry, because their mascots were a
> disparaging term. (i.e. like Esk*mo is to the Inuit).
>
> ASF/Jeep are using a tribe name, which w/o context has no connotation
> other than an identifier. However, the usage and context of the name is
> where perception comes in. Once we start doing things under the umbrella of
> the name, there is an association or linkage. If the tribal nations are
> against what we “do”, based on values of some tribes (at least the ones I
> share DNA with), trying to “buy” the name may be considered extremely
> offensive.
>
> It’s also worth considering that it is an ongoing risk. What is ok today
> might not be tomorrow. It’s entirely possible that we take a direction that
> no longer aligns with what the nations consider acceptable values.
>
> I would love to see some form of positive relationship fostered that
> allows an organization to create a respectful relationship (maybe us!). I
> personally find that to be a more interesting direction than we appear to
> be headed globally. (I suppose this is incredibly ironic when you consider
> that I’m proposing social unification which is often considered to be the
> reciprocal of tribalism)
>
>
>
>
> From: Andrew Wetmore 
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org 
> Date: May 4, 2022 at 14:05:48
> To: dev@community.apache.org 
> Subject:  A way to keep the name
>
> Hi, all.
>
> We have a very long thread on the possibility of changing the name of our
> foundation, and the complex work involved. I may have missed it in the
> back-and-forth, but is there not another way forward?
>
> What if we established an offering of value to members of the Apache
> Nation
> (defined by the eight tribes) that attaches a benefit to the existing
> perceived connection between our use of the word "Apache" and theirs?
> Such
> a package could start small, but grow toward something that is much more
> useful than the "one peppercorn per annum" which is the legal term in
> England to describe a nominal rent.
>
> The package could begin with elements that we already have in our hands
> made available to members of the Apache Nation:
>
> - travel assistance to attend ApacheCon
> - advanced access to the Google Summer of Code
> - assistance within our realms of expertise with technical infrastructure
> or code-development issues the Apache Nation faces
>
> On such a basis we could solicit additional "goods" to grow the package:
>
> - a scholarship fund to enable study in software development
> - internships with corporations that are ASF sponsors
>
> Others among you will have much better ideas than those I have just
> tossed
> into the ring. Please suggest them.
>
> This approach makes a positive out of what some perceive as a negative,
> as
> we grow a coincidental relationship into one of real value to the people
> of
> the Apache Nation.
>
> a
> --
> Andrew Wetmore
>
> Editor, Moose House Publications <https://moosehousepress.com/>
> Editor-Writer, The Apache Software Foundation <https://apache.org/>
>

Re: A way to keep the name

[me]

This was somewhat covered (at a much higher level).  This falls into the 
category of ‘association with permission’. It’s somewhere between 
disassociation and what Jeep is doing (which is to determine if a problem 
exists w/ the specific tribe.) 

Each circumstance is unique. I looked through Jeep’s materials, and they have 
no documentation that links them directly to the Cherokee nation. We do. With 
such an explicit relationship, perception (of that relationship) is fairly 
black and white. On the flip side, it does give us more steps/milestones if we 
do define a problem. 

I think what is challenging to communicate is the difference between the 
Washington/Cleveland sports team cases, and Jeep/ASF. 

Washington/Cleveland is cut and dry, because their mascots were a disparaging 
term. (i.e. like Esk*mo is to the Inuit). 

ASF/Jeep are using a tribe name, which w/o context has no connotation other 
than an identifier. However, the usage and context of the name is where 
perception comes in. Once we start doing things under the umbrella of the name, 
there is an association or linkage. If the tribal nations are against what we 
“do”, based on values of some tribes (at least the ones I share DNA with), 
trying to “buy” the name may be considered extremely offensive. 

It’s also worth considering that it is an ongoing risk. What is ok today might 
not be tomorrow. It’s entirely possible that we take a direction that no longer 
aligns with what the nations consider acceptable values. 

I would love to see some form of positive relationship fostered that allows an 
organization to create a respectful relationship (maybe us!). I personally find 
that to be a more interesting direction than we appear to be headed globally. 
(I suppose this is incredibly ironic when you consider that I’m proposing 
social unification which is often considered to be the reciprocal of tribalism)




From: Andrew Wetmore 
Reply: dev@community.apache.org 
Date: May 4, 2022 at 14:05:48
To: dev@community.apache.org 
Subject:  A way to keep the name  

Hi, all.  

We have a very long thread on the possibility of changing the name of our  
foundation, and the complex work involved. I may have missed it in the  
back-and-forth, but is there not another way forward?  

What if we established an offering of value to members of the Apache Nation  
(defined by the eight tribes) that attaches a benefit to the existing  
perceived connection between our use of the word "Apache" and theirs? Such  
a package could start small, but grow toward something that is much more  
useful than the "one peppercorn per annum" which is the legal term in  
England to describe a nominal rent.  

The package could begin with elements that we already have in our hands  
made available to members of the Apache Nation:  

- travel assistance to attend ApacheCon  
- advanced access to the Google Summer of Code  
- assistance within our realms of expertise with technical infrastructure  
or code-development issues the Apache Nation faces  

On such a basis we could solicit additional "goods" to grow the package:  

- a scholarship fund to enable study in software development  
- internships with corporations that are ASF sponsors  

Others among you will have much better ideas than those I have just tossed  
into the ring. Please suggest them.  

This approach makes a positive out of what some perceive as a negative, as  
we grow a coincidental relationship into one of real value to the people of  
the Apache Nation.  

a  
--  
Andrew Wetmore  

Editor, Moose House Publications <https://moosehousepress.com/>  
Editor-Writer, The Apache Software Foundation <https://apache.org/>  

A way to keep the name

[Andrew Wetmore]

Hi, all.

We have a very long thread on the possibility of changing the name of our
foundation, and the complex work involved. I may have missed it in the
back-and-forth, but is there not another way forward?

What if we established an offering of value to members of the Apache Nation
(defined by the eight tribes) that attaches a benefit to the existing
perceived connection between our use of the word "Apache" and theirs? Such
a package could start small, but grow toward something that is much more
useful than the "one peppercorn per annum" which is the legal term in
England to describe  a nominal rent.

The package could begin with elements that we already have in our hands
made available to members of the Apache Nation:

  - travel assistance to attend ApacheCon
  - advanced access to the Google Summer of Code
  - assistance within our realms of expertise with technical infrastructure
or code-development issues the Apache Nation faces

On such a basis we could solicit additional "goods" to grow the package:

  - a scholarship fund to enable study in software development
  - internships with corporations that are ASF sponsors

Others among you will have much better ideas than those I have just tossed
into the ring. Please suggest them.

This approach makes a positive out of what some perceive as a negative, as
we grow a coincidental relationship into one of real value to the people of
the Apache Nation.

a
-- 
Andrew Wetmore

Editor, Moose House Publications 
Editor-Writer, The Apache Software Foundation