Re: [documentation-dev] wikidoc: breadcrumb localization problem
which hardly could be stumbled upon except by doing ;-) :-) Yes, you're right. Therefore, a Big Thankyou to all the contributors of the big work done so far which I just could use :-) Don't forget yourself in this thank you too... you're asking the tough questions... and they need to be asked. Not everything we're doing right now on the Wiki is the best way to do things... in many cases, it's the first guess at what might work, and we've simply been using it ever since. Take the case of the breadcrumbs that was raised. While in the case of the more technical docs with a 1-to-1 page translation it makes (on some levels) sense to use the process I outlined earlier... for the User Guides it's not as critical nor important (especially since the different docs are not necessarily a 1-to-1 translation, but more or less independent docs that follow their own update path). For the InterWiki linking, we can still use a template, and link between the translations, but... on, for example, just the first page (similar to how the Main_Page is linked). This gives a link from one translation to the next... and still allows 100% localized page names etc. C. -- Clayton Cornell ccorn...@openoffice.org OpenOffice.org Documentation Project co-lead StarOffice - Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Hamburg, Germany - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@documentation.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@documentation.openoffice.org
Re: [documentation-dev] wikidoc: breadcrumb localization problem
You are where you are today because you stand on somebody's shoulders. And wherever you are heading, you cannot get there by yourself. If you stand on the shoulders of others, you have a reciprocal responsibility to live your life so that others may stand on your shoulders. It's the quid pro quo of life. We exist temporarily through what we take, but we live forever through what we give -- Vernon Jordan, in a speech at Howard University, 2002 Nino Novak wrote: On Thursday 10 September 2009 12:50, ccornell - OpenOffice.org wrote: It makes sense to standardize everything to a master template that everyone works to improve. All changes flow out from the master template. All translations flow out from the master template. From that point if someone really really wants to create an alternative, they can easily spin off something of their own composition. Agreed, but.. that only works if the master templates and ideas are the best they can be. The questions Nino is asking are what we need to weed out the less than optimal processes we're currently using. :-) Nino has raised a good point regarding the localizations and breadcrumbs... which hardly could be stumbled upon except by doing ;-) Therefore, a Big Thankyou to all the contributors of the big work done so far which I just could use :-) Nino - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@documentation.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@documentation.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@documentation.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@documentation.openoffice.org
Re: [documentation-dev] wikidoc: breadcrumb localization problem
On Thursday 10 September 2009 12:50, ccornell - OpenOffice.org wrote: It makes sense to standardize everything to a master template that everyone works to improve. All changes flow out from the master template. All translations flow out from the master template. From that point if someone really really wants to create an alternative, they can easily spin off something of their own composition. Agreed, but.. that only works if the master templates and ideas are the best they can be. The questions Nino is asking are what we need to weed out the less than optimal processes we're currently using. :-) Nino has raised a good point regarding the localizations and breadcrumbs... which hardly could be stumbled upon except by doing ;-) Therefore, a Big Thankyou to all the contributors of the big work done so far which I just could use :-) Nino - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@documentation.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@documentation.openoffice.org
Re: [documentation-dev] wikidoc: breadcrumb localization problem
On Wednesday 09 September 2009 23:47, Jean Hollis Weber wrote: Yes, as far as I know, the German and English docs are maintained completely independently. Nino should be able to confirm this. I cannot answer this as I've not been very close to the translation process. My jump in was just the motivation to wikify the German docs, mainly the user guides - as I'm mainly an OOo user myself. This gives me the link to reply to Clayton's arguments concerning the localized vs. non-localized document path names: The idea of having one big international document framework with all the translations in sync might be challenging, but my personal priority at the moment is trying to make the web UGs as attractive as possible for end users. So, if not accepted by the users, the wiki should at least act as prototype for how a good web documentation should look like. I hope, you'll understand my argumentation: it just favors the usability/attractivity aspect over technical/maintenance aspects. ;-) Nino - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@documentation.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@documentation.openoffice.org
Re: [documentation-dev] wikidoc: breadcrumb localization problem
Nino Novak wrote: Clayton wrote: As for the different structure... is this because you've found a better way to present the information? E.g. Chapter 6 (Data pilot) of the Calc Guide has been written in German from scratch, it's not a translation at all. :-) The English version of that chapter was translated from the German chapter that Nino mentions. That's because the German chapter was much more detailed and complete than the original English chapter. I probably made some other (minor) changes to the English version of that chapter, so it may no longer be a direct translation. --Jean - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@documentation.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@documentation.openoffice.org
Re: [documentation-dev] wikidoc: breadcrumb localization problem
Nino Novak wrote: On Friday 11 September 2009 13:17, Jean Hollis Weber wrote: Nino Novak wrote: Clayton wrote: As for the different structure... is this because you've found a better way to present the information? E.g. Chapter 6 (Data pilot) of the Calc Guide has been written in German from scratch, it's not a translation at all. :-) The English version of that chapter was translated from the : German chapter that Nino mentions. That's because the German chapter was much more detailed and complete than the original English chapter. I probably made some other (minor) changes to the English version of that chapter, so it may no longer be a direct translation. Ok, so I might have looked at the wrong document. Where can I find this translated version? Oh, that's right, I also reorganised the sequence of chapters in the English Calc Guide for OOo3, to put the chapters on input, formatting, and output before the chapters on calculations and data analysis. The English chapter on DataPilot is now Chapter 8. http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/OOo3_User_Guides/Calc_Guide/DataPilot ODT is here: http://www.oooauthors.org/english/userguide3/calc3/cg3_draft/cg3-ch8-datapilot/view So to answer Clayton's question of different structure of a book: yes, the new sequence of chapters seemed more logical to me from the average user's point of view. --Jean - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@documentation.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@documentation.openoffice.org
Re: [documentation-dev] wikidoc: breadcrumb localization problem
It makes sense to standardize everything to a master template that everyone works to improve. All changes flow out from the master template. All translations flow out from the master template. From that point if someone really really wants to create an alternative, they can easily spin off something of their own composition. Agreed, but.. that only works if the master templates and ideas are the best they can be. The questions Nino is asking are what we need to weed out the less than optimal processes we're currently using. :-) Nino has raised a good point regarding the localizations and breadcrumbs... I love that we as a team can discuss these things - and I'm definitely open to changing my mind on things. Once we understand why some things are done the way they are now, we can spot the ways to make them better. C. -- Clayton Cornell ccorn...@openoffice.org OpenOffice.org Documentation Project co-lead StarOffice - Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Hamburg, Germany - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@documentation.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@documentation.openoffice.org
Re: [documentation-dev] wikidoc: breadcrumb localization problem
On Wednesday 09 September 2009 15:42, Clayton wrote: Nino Novak wrote: Additional insights: Comparing the English (original) WG2 to the German translation I noticed that the German WG has different chapter titles and structure in several places, so for me it seams quite reasonable not to stick to the proposed document path structure which just appends a DE/ at the beginning (Doc/WG2/... - DE/Doc/WG2...) but to use different path names according to the German document stucture. What was the rationale behind the strictly matching path structures? There are several reasons. Could you tell me which other reasons there are? For example, we are using InterWiki linking to link from one document translation to another. Sorry but, for the User Guides, this is a minor requirement, nice to have but absolutely unnecessary for 99% of the end users - which often are software newbies and just want to learn the basics. They don't need to switch to Chinese by one click ;) For the moment, I think we can totally ignore this requirement without remarkable quality loss. Are there any *important* obstacles? ;-) [...] As for the different structure... is this because you've found a better way to present the information? Is this a problem/solution that could also be used in the English side, making both document sets better? The Chinese translation was able to maintain the same document structure... so I'm curious what ended up in different places in the German translation. For this I'd have to dive in deeper, which I possibly will do later (my plan is to help migrating the German UGs to OOo 3). Nino - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@documentation.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@documentation.openoffice.org
Re: [documentation-dev] wikidoc: breadcrumb localization problem
What was the rationale behind the strictly matching path structures? There are several reasons. Could you tell me which other reasons there are? Consistency... standardization... an attempt to instill some sanity and organization in the chaos... the ability to find information from an admin standpoint (eg running wiki maintenance bots)... simplifying the creation of Wiki books (aka Collections) etc. This can all be managed manually, and within a single book in a single language, it's not so hard to deal with... but when you introduce multiple languages it becomes impossible in a *very* short time. Normally, with any random page in the Wiki, it doesn't matter so much if the translation is linked, if the page name is the same as another etc. When we're dealing with the books though, we have dynamic and changing content. If we allow each translation to go off and use whatever layout, naming scheme etc that they want, then how do we manage that long term? For example... lets assume we have a book in the Wiki called OOoStuff. It's originally authored in English and translated to Italian, German, Polish, Chinese and Vietnamese. An expert comes along and identifies a major error in the English version and makes a change. If the German version does not follow the layout and structure (naming, content location and so on) how do we find and correct the error in the German version? If all languages follow the same naming scheme, then it's a simple matter of saying (on the L10N mailing list for example): There is an error that needs to be corrected in all translations of the OOoStuff book on page Documentation/OOoStuff/Section_4/Page_2 and everyone knows exactly where to go to make the changes. Assume that the person who translated the German document decided to do things differently (for reasons that made sense at the time), and put that same information on (and I'm going to show how bad my German is here :-) ) DE/Documentation/OOoZeug/Blatt_6/Abschnitt_3/Unterabschnitt_7 If you're not the original translator and/or don't know the document intimately, how can you be sure to find that section that needs to be changed? Another (real life) example. Yesterday I had a request to help create an Italian ODT and PDF of the Basic Guide. Because the Italian translation of the Basic Guide followed the same page layout/naming as the English version, I could quickly create the book, and generate and ODT. Now, it could have been done manually, but in about 10x the time. With everything standardized and consistent, it was quite easy to pull things together (ie build the Book file content) and produce the required document. Sorry but, for the User Guides, this is a minor requirement, nice to have but absolutely unnecessary for 99% of the end users - which often are software newbies and just want to learn the basics. They don't need to switch to Chinese by one click ;) What about a German user who arrives on the Wiki and ends up at the English guide? He or she may be able to manage OK in English but would be much much more comfortable reading in German. Providing that quick link to get them to their native language when it's available seems to me to be a rather important aspect here - especially in light of the fact that we have such a mishmash of languages and information in the Wiki. Are there any *important* obstacles? ;-) I think I've highlighted a few above. :-) We started out with things being a lot more free form and almost immediately it became clear that if we want to have even a remote chance of keeping the docs somewhat in synch between the languages without needing to totally re-translate everything every X months then we absolutely need to implement some structure of some form or another. If you or anyone else reading this thread have any ideas on how we can make changes and still keep things manageable... speak up. We've set out the guidelines and so on based on what looked best for everyone... that can change (and should change as new requirements appear)... but... I don't want to see it change just because someone doesn't quite like it and it doesn't quite fit with his or her view of things. If it changes, it needs to be a change that improves things for all languages involved... something that makes the overall management and keeping track of it all easier or better in the long run (eg the work done recently on the MasterTOC is a prime example of making changes to dramatically improve things over what they were). C. -- Clayton Cornell ccorn...@openoffice.org OpenOffice.org Documentation Project co-lead StarOffice - Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Hamburg, Germany - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@documentation.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@documentation.openoffice.org
Re: [documentation-dev] wikidoc: breadcrumb localization problem
Variety is the spice of life. However, in any major project you want to avoid duplication of effort. That duplicated effort if put into development of the main project helps everyone a lot more in the long run. Everyone can then draw from the main project. It makes sense to standardize everything to a master template that everyone works to improve. All changes flow out from the master template. All translations flow out from the master template. From that point if someone really really wants to create an alternative, they can easily spin off something of their own composition. From my point of view, I really would prefer everyone apply their creativity and time to making the central project the very best it can be. As collaborative content simplifies and becomes easier to contribute to, I believe it will also at the same rate become easier to draw from. It will be easier for people to do their own thing should they choose to. Alan Jean Hollis Weber wrote: Clayton wrote: Jean Hollis Weber wrote: Clayton, with regards to the German and English user guides, they often are not translations page-by-page. Some of the German UGs began as translations from English (and the English Draw Guide began as a translation from German), but both the DE and EN books have diverged from that common source before being put on the wiki. It's quite a different situation from a primarily wiki-based doc like the Basic Guide or any other that may actually be translated page-by-page. And therefore, I think, needs a different (or at least modified) solution to the question of What about a German user who arrives on the Wiki and ends up at the English guide? Ah, there is where a bit of the issue comes in.. the history of the docs prior to Wiki-fying them can have a significant impact on the way things are handled. I missed/forgot that bit at the start of the thread. If we assume a separate path for these docs, are they maintained as totally independent docs? Yes, as far as I know, the German and English docs are maintained completely independently. Nino should be able to confirm this. Other languages (that work through OOoAuthors) may maintain a closer, or very close, relationship with the English originals. I don't know if any of them intend to wikify their translations. --Jean For the Dev Guide, Basic Guide, and Admin Guide, the process I've outlined in my previous email is working reasonably well given the restrictions of the Wiki. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@documentation.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@documentation.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@documentation.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@documentation.openoffice.org
Re: [documentation-dev] wikidoc: breadcrumb localization problem
Nino Novak wrote: Good evening to all, just had a first problem: the breadcrumb shown at the top of a subpage displays the original page title, not the DISPLAYTITLE variable content. Any ideas how to get it localized? Would it be an desirable solution to use redirects? Example: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Nnino/Drafts/DE/Documentation/OOoAuthors_User_Manual/Writer_Guide is a redirect. Its subpage /Copyright is also a redirect to the localized Version. H that's likely another side effect of not using Namespaces for the different languages in the Wiki. The breadcrumb uses the actual page title, not the DISPLAYTITLE which is just a re-write of the actual page title. I don't have any suggestions. Using redirects may work, but it could get messy long term. Maybe TJ has a brainwave here :-) It would be nice to find a workable solution to this since it affects all translated pages. Maybe we need to come at it from another angle? C. -- Clayton Cornell ccorn...@openoffice.org OpenOffice.org Documentation Project co-lead StarOffice - Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Hamburg, Germany - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@documentation.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@documentation.openoffice.org
Re: [documentation-dev] wikidoc: breadcrumb localization problem
Clayton wrote:
Nino Novak wrote:
Good evening to all,
just had a first problem: the breadcrumb shown at the top of a subpage
displays the original page title, not the DISPLAYTITLE variable
content. Any ideas how to get it localized?
Would it be an desirable solution to use redirects?
Example:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Nnino/Drafts/DE/Documentation/OOoAuthors_User_Manual/Writer_Guide
is a redirect. Its subpage /Copyright is also a redirect to the
localized Version.
H that's likely another side effect of not using Namespaces for the
different languages in the Wiki. The breadcrumb uses the actual page
title, not the DISPLAYTITLE which is just a re-write of the actual page
title.
I don't have any suggestions. Using redirects may work, but it could
get messy long term. Maybe TJ has a brainwave here :-) It would be
nice to find a workable solution to this since it affects all translated
pages. Maybe we need to come at it from another angle?
C.
Sorry, sounds like a PHP problem. My totally ignorant guess is that the
breadcrumb code uses something (at the PHP level) like {{PAGENAME}} (at
the wiki-code level). Maybe (or maybe not) it could use {{DISPLAYTITLE}}
equivalent, if that could return {{PAGENAME}} by default.
Redirects sound like a bad idea to me. Some industrious soul is liable
to come along and clean them up. (My 2ยข.)
--
/tj/
-
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[documentation-dev] wikidoc: breadcrumb localization problem
Good evening to all, just had a first problem: the breadcrumb shown at the top of a subpage displays the original page title, not the DISPLAYTITLE variable content. Any ideas how to get it localized? Would it be an desirable solution to use redirects? Example: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Nnino/Drafts/DE/Documentation/OOoAuthors_User_Manual/Writer_Guide is a redirect. Its subpage /Copyright is also a redirect to the localized Version. Nino - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@documentation.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@documentation.openoffice.org
