Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
That's a frustrating issue, however Adobe just removed tlf and as2 from CC. I think we can follow suite and safely ignore backward compatibility. We need the player to be backwards compatible, not the codebase. If a team needs more performance they are not going to be concerned with backwards compatability in the code IMO. But the lack of performance options will cause them to choose another language or framework all together. On 2 Jul 2013 16:34, "Gary Young" wrote: > Is it possible to make the backward compatible a branch which only fixes > bugs, and break UIComponent in another new branch which alway cutting edge? > > Flex Spark is the one architecture, maintaining back compatibility makes it > not perfect. > > > On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 12:57 AM, Alex Harui wrote: > > > > > > > On 7/1/13 10:15 AM, "Avi Kessner" wrote: > > > > >Why can't we get rid of those 13k line base classes? > > >On 1 Jul 2013 20:03, "Jonathan Campos" wrote: > > We can, but not without breaking backward compatibility or slower > > performance. In the two attempts I made, you can break UIComponent into > > some 20 sub-components but unless you break backward compatibility, many > > of those sub-components have to be instantiated during the startup phase > > and the extra overhead of calling in and out of the subcomponents slowed > > things down. > > > > That's why FlexJS isn't guaranteeing backward compatibility. We can take > > those sub-components and load them on-demand at different times. > > > > -Alex > > > > >
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Is it possible to make the backward compatible a branch which only fixes bugs, and break UIComponent in another new branch which alway cutting edge? Flex Spark is the one architecture, maintaining back compatibility makes it not perfect. On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 12:57 AM, Alex Harui wrote: > > > On 7/1/13 10:15 AM, "Avi Kessner" wrote: > > >Why can't we get rid of those 13k line base classes? > >On 1 Jul 2013 20:03, "Jonathan Campos" wrote: > We can, but not without breaking backward compatibility or slower > performance. In the two attempts I made, you can break UIComponent into > some 20 sub-components but unless you break backward compatibility, many > of those sub-components have to be instantiated during the startup phase > and the extra overhead of calling in and out of the subcomponents slowed > things down. > > That's why FlexJS isn't guaranteeing backward compatibility. We can take > those sub-components and load them on-demand at different times. > > -Alex > >
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
On 7/1/13 10:15 AM, "Avi Kessner" wrote: >Why can't we get rid of those 13k line base classes? >On 1 Jul 2013 20:03, "Jonathan Campos" wrote: We can, but not without breaking backward compatibility or slower performance. In the two attempts I made, you can break UIComponent into some 20 sub-components but unless you break backward compatibility, many of those sub-components have to be instantiated during the startup phase and the extra overhead of calling in and out of the subcomponents slowed things down. That's why FlexJS isn't guaranteeing backward compatibility. We can take those sub-components and load them on-demand at different times. -Alex
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Why can't we get rid of those 13k line base classes? On 1 Jul 2013 20:03, "Jonathan Campos" wrote: > On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 4:43 PM, OmPrakash Muppirala > wrote: > > > So, when folks are saying that Flex does not perform well on mobile, can > > you please post some examples, etc so we can try to figure out what the > > real problems? As opposed to sweeping statements like Flex mobile sucks, > > etc. > > > > Just as a quick note. I've spent quite a bit of time over the last 2 years > talking to teams that have had issues with their Flex Mobile apps and they > all blame Flex for some really bad framerates and they "know their code is > correct". > > The biggest issue I've found is item renderers. Wouldn't you know when I > switch out their item renderers things seem to move very smoothly and > almost all their complaints go away. Yes there is still that half-second > lag for the new View to come in but other than that all the performance > issues are gone. > > J > > > -- > Jonathan Campos >
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 4:43 PM, OmPrakash Muppirala wrote: > So, when folks are saying that Flex does not perform well on mobile, can > you please post some examples, etc so we can try to figure out what the > real problems? As opposed to sweeping statements like Flex mobile sucks, > etc. > Just as a quick note. I've spent quite a bit of time over the last 2 years talking to teams that have had issues with their Flex Mobile apps and they all blame Flex for some really bad framerates and they "know their code is correct". The biggest issue I've found is item renderers. Wouldn't you know when I switch out their item renderers things seem to move very smoothly and almost all their complaints go away. Yes there is still that half-second lag for the new View to come in but other than that all the performance issues are gone. J -- Jonathan Campos
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Thanks Alex! > What I hope to accomplish with FlexJS is to make a great second-generation > SDK for building FP and AIR apps that can then be compiled to JS/CSS. If > you can get your users to use FP and AIR then you save a lot of > browser-specific testing, but lots of people don't seem to control over > that decision. Yes, there will be some API surface trade-offs required to > make your code portable to JS/CSS. FlexJS won't take advantage of weak > references and dictionaries unless it is part of emulating a browser > built-in. But if you look at the prototypes so far, you'll see that > FlexJS SWFs can be as small as 20K, don't need RSLs, preloader frames that > can't use Flex widgets, a base class that is 13K lines long, etc. FlexJS sound really exciting! Thank you for all the hard works and looking forward to the release of FlexJS soon. Joel On Jul 1, 2013, at 1:25 PM, Alex Harui wrote: > > > On 6/30/13 7:58 PM, "Organet Systems" wrote: > >> Thanks Jude for the input! >> >>> There are a couple of good things about the FlexJS project that may not >>> be >>> apparent to us as Flex users. That is, if FlexJS becomes popular >>> (especially to HTML devs) then it brings Flex into a good light. When >>> HTML >>> devs see how they can create great apps with the Flex syntax they're >>> learning and using they'll see they can cross compile to FP and AIR for >>> free. Then, their client says we now want to run that app on mobile. >>> Then >>> being able to compile to Flash and AIR becomes a valuable asset to them. >> >> Now I can see the benefits of being able to output Flex in HTML format, >> for better accessibility and attract more developers to use Flex. Like >> what Adobe Flash Professional CC is able to do now to output it in HTML5 >> and Dart. Personally, I felt that HTML output should be an OPTION and >> shouldn't be the CORE for Flex dev (Like Flash Pro). Putting Flex dev >> focus on HTML is a great risk, it might end up losing Flex users who love >> FP and AIR (who don't believe HTML and Javascript can do what Flex is >> able to do and go away and look for something else like Feather UI, >> MadCompanents and etc.), just for my personal opinion, I felt that Flex >> dev for HTML should be an option and definitely it's a great option to go >> for, but should not be the core. > > What I hope to accomplish with FlexJS is to make a great second-generation > SDK for building FP and AIR apps that can then be compiled to JS/CSS. If > you can get your users to use FP and AIR then you save a lot of > browser-specific testing, but lots of people don't seem to control over > that decision. Yes, there will be some API surface trade-offs required to > make your code portable to JS/CSS. FlexJS won't take advantage of weak > references and dictionaries unless it is part of emulating a browser > built-in. But if you look at the prototypes so far, you'll see that > FlexJS SWFs can be as small as 20K, don't need RSLs, preloader frames that > can't use Flex widgets, a base class that is 13K lines long, etc. > > -Alex >
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
On 6/30/13 7:58 PM, "Organet Systems" wrote: >Thanks Jude for the input! > >> There are a couple of good things about the FlexJS project that may not >>be >> apparent to us as Flex users. That is, if FlexJS becomes popular >> (especially to HTML devs) then it brings Flex into a good light. When >>HTML >> devs see how they can create great apps with the Flex syntax they're >> learning and using they'll see they can cross compile to FP and AIR for >> free. Then, their client says we now want to run that app on mobile. >>Then >> being able to compile to Flash and AIR becomes a valuable asset to them. > >Now I can see the benefits of being able to output Flex in HTML format, >for better accessibility and attract more developers to use Flex. Like >what Adobe Flash Professional CC is able to do now to output it in HTML5 >and Dart. Personally, I felt that HTML output should be an OPTION and >shouldn't be the CORE for Flex dev (Like Flash Pro). Putting Flex dev >focus on HTML is a great risk, it might end up losing Flex users who love >FP and AIR (who don't believe HTML and Javascript can do what Flex is >able to do and go away and look for something else like Feather UI, >MadCompanents and etc.), just for my personal opinion, I felt that Flex >dev for HTML should be an option and definitely it's a great option to go >for, but should not be the core. What I hope to accomplish with FlexJS is to make a great second-generation SDK for building FP and AIR apps that can then be compiled to JS/CSS. If you can get your users to use FP and AIR then you save a lot of browser-specific testing, but lots of people don't seem to control over that decision. Yes, there will be some API surface trade-offs required to make your code portable to JS/CSS. FlexJS won't take advantage of weak references and dictionaries unless it is part of emulating a browser built-in. But if you look at the prototypes so far, you'll see that FlexJS SWFs can be as small as 20K, don't need RSLs, preloader frames that can't use Flex widgets, a base class that is 13K lines long, etc. -Alex
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Hi, > *Due to legal reasons, only people who have been elected as committers have > access to update or contribute code directly to the project.*. I can see how that might be misunderstood and I agree the wording needs to be changed. Anyone can contribute code to the project but only committers have write access to SVN/Git. It's by being involved in the project and making contributions that you can become a committer. Non committers still have read access to the SDK and can generate and submit patches and new classes/functionality. We always need more active committers! If you contribute a patch to JIRA issue and if it works and is good quality it is likely to put put into SVN by a committer. For a larger code donation the people involved need to submit an ICLA (a simple form) and there must be a clear understanding of who owns the code and that it's legally able to be donated. Sometime this is unclear if it was developed while being employed by someone or if there were multiple people involved. For large code donations a software grant is required. While these all seem like barriers to entry they are there so that businesses can use Apache Software without legal risks. > We could have a second branch called Flex Plus! that would have all the > candidates and third party add ons. While that might be possible we not allowed to make an official release that contains software that's not been donated via above processes. > Do you have to be committer to get a whiteboard? In theory I believe it's possible but in practice it simpler if you are (as it's tied to your Apache id). You can however fork the github mirror or create your own whiteboard on github or elsewhere public. You can use a friendly committer whiteboard but that might be a bit cumbersome in practise as they would have to commit the code/apply patches to it. > But for libraries like the JPEG, PNG Encoders and JSON encoders back before > there > were native classes, components, skins, AS3 Commons, FlexUnit, etc. these > are all vital for Flex development. if you have anything you want to donate just put the code up somewhere public and start a discussion about it. If it's small (and obviously has a place in the SSK) and you're the only person that worked on it the process is fairly straight forward and people on the list will help. Thanks, Justin
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Thanks Jude for the input! > There are a couple of good things about the FlexJS project that may not be > apparent to us as Flex users. That is, if FlexJS becomes popular > (especially to HTML devs) then it brings Flex into a good light. When HTML > devs see how they can create great apps with the Flex syntax they're > learning and using they'll see they can cross compile to FP and AIR for > free. Then, their client says we now want to run that app on mobile. Then > being able to compile to Flash and AIR becomes a valuable asset to them. Now I can see the benefits of being able to output Flex in HTML format, for better accessibility and attract more developers to use Flex. Like what Adobe Flash Professional CC is able to do now to output it in HTML5 and Dart. Personally, I felt that HTML output should be an OPTION and shouldn't be the CORE for Flex dev (Like Flash Pro). Putting Flex dev focus on HTML is a great risk, it might end up losing Flex users who love FP and AIR (who don't believe HTML and Javascript can do what Flex is able to do and go away and look for something else like Feather UI, MadCompanents and etc.), just for my personal opinion, I felt that Flex dev for HTML should be an option and definitely it's a great option to go for, but should not be the core. Joel On Jul 1, 2013, at 1:39 AM, jude wrote: > There have been some talk about porting Flex visuals to Starling in the > past. I have seen Starling demos at our Flash usergroup meetings and I > would love to see Flex use it. I think it would require the graphics > classes to be replaced with starling classes. I think Jangaroo does > something like this when it replaces graphics calls on client JS (Jangaroo > converts AS to JS including graphics calls). One disadvantage to this is > the lose of some accessibility. I do care about accessibility but I don't > think we should not pursue it because it is not accessible. There maybe > some workarounds that fulfill the requirements for example, we can output > two SWFs, one based on Starling and one with normal graphic classes. Or > output an HTML site for accessibility. > > I agree there seems less focus on Flex for FP / AIR. Some areas are getting > focus such as feature parity of mx components. I think a lot of new Spark > components are in the 4.10 release (or next release?). I would love to see > more performance improvements in the next version of Flex. There is a lot > of warm just in case code that is running. I'd like to improve this at some > point in the future. For example, if we know an animation does not affect > child or parent components layout then disable validation on those > components while an animation is running or take bitmap snapshots of > components and animate the snapshots (I think something like this is in > some effect classes). > > There are a couple of good things about the FlexJS project that may not be > apparent to us as Flex users. That is, if FlexJS becomes popular > (especially to HTML devs) then it brings Flex into a good light. When HTML > devs see how they can create great apps with the Flex syntax they're > learning and using they'll see they can cross compile to FP and AIR for > free. Then, their client says we now want to run that app on mobile. Then > being able to compile to Flash and AIR becomes a valuable asset to them. > > I think it has been more difficult than it should for people to donate > existing code to the project. I think Tink has lots of components but where > are they? If his stuff isn't in the download what chance do any of us have? > > On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Joel Tan wrote: > >> Hi, I am a fan of Flex, I love Flex very much, most of my projects are >> done by using Flex. >> >>> I'm not entirely convinced that this is the best route, but it certainly >> is a clean route to take. I'm afraid about community fragmentation and >> basically leaving out current Flex on FP users, because "all the cool kids" >> will jump to FlexJS and then, obviously, the amount of support for Flex on >> FP will be smaller. Maybe I'm wrong, here, don't know. >> >> >> I do agree with what Sebastian Zarzycki are mentioning, HTML5 might not be >> the best route. For me personally I would prefer to output my project in >> SWF format rather than HTML, even though we might have an option to output >> it in HTML5 format later with FlexJS. There are always browser >> incompatibility and performance issue in HTML format. >> >> Does Apache Flex has a plan to build Flex on top of Starling or Stage3D? >> Like what Feather UI is doing (http://feathersui.com/), it looks >> promising, even some of them in forum were thinking of Feather UI might >> replacing Flex, but of course it's not ( >> http://forum.starling-framework.org/topic/feathers-ultimate-vision-and-roadmap >> ). >> >> Personally I felt Flex shouldn't stay away from Flash Player and AIR, Flex >> is great because it runs within Flash Player (it might not the case if it's >
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
I searched the site and the wiki on donating code and what I found automatically puts up a barrier between anyone wanting to donate, http://flex.apache.org/community-getinvolved.html, *Due to legal reasons, only people who have been elected as committers have access to update or contribute code directly to the project.*.. Alright, never mind then! I think that could be rephrased or removed. We want to encourage donations, even if they aren't perfect. We can clean them up later as we go. That suggests that donations automatically would be committed to the main branch which isn't the case anyway. There could be an intermediary area for donations. We could have a second branch called Flex Plus! that would have all the candidates and third party add ons. That could be included or downloaded alongside the main branch. Whatever we do they need to be named Flex Plus! SuperPack and Flex Ultimate! Extras. :P Do you have to be committer to get a whiteboard? If not this is another barrier to entry. For patches to the SDK it's not as important. But for libraries like the JPEG, PNG Encoders and JSON encoders back before there were native classes, components, skins, AS3 Commons, FlexUnit, etc. these are all vital for Flex development. On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 12:39 PM, jude wrote: > There have been some talk about porting Flex visuals to Starling in the > past. I have seen Starling demos at our Flash usergroup meetings and I > would love to see Flex use it. I think it would require the graphics > classes to be replaced with starling classes. I think Jangaroo does > something like this when it replaces graphics calls on client JS (Jangaroo > converts AS to JS including graphics calls). One disadvantage to this is > the lose of some accessibility. I do care about accessibility but I don't > think we should not pursue it because it is not accessible. There maybe > some workarounds that fulfill the requirements for example, we can output > two SWFs, one based on Starling and one with normal graphic classes. Or > output an HTML site for accessibility. > > I agree there seems less focus on Flex for FP / AIR. Some areas are > getting focus such as feature parity of mx components. I think a lot of new > Spark components are in the 4.10 release (or next release?). I would love > to see more performance improvements in the next version of Flex. There is > a lot of warm just in case code that is running. I'd like to improve this > at some point in the future. For example, if we know an animation does not > affect child or parent components layout then disable validation on those > components while an animation is running or take bitmap snapshots of > components and animate the snapshots (I think something like this is in > some effect classes). > > There are a couple of good things about the FlexJS project that may not be > apparent to us as Flex users. That is, if FlexJS becomes popular > (especially to HTML devs) then it brings Flex into a good light. When HTML > devs see how they can create great apps with the Flex syntax they're > learning and using they'll see they can cross compile to FP and AIR for > free. Then, their client says we now want to run that app on mobile. Then > being able to compile to Flash and AIR becomes a valuable asset to them. > > I think it has been more difficult than it should for people to donate > existing code to the project. I think Tink has lots of components but where > are they? If his stuff isn't in the download what chance do any of us have? >
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
There have been some talk about porting Flex visuals to Starling in the past. I have seen Starling demos at our Flash usergroup meetings and I would love to see Flex use it. I think it would require the graphics classes to be replaced with starling classes. I think Jangaroo does something like this when it replaces graphics calls on client JS (Jangaroo converts AS to JS including graphics calls). One disadvantage to this is the lose of some accessibility. I do care about accessibility but I don't think we should not pursue it because it is not accessible. There maybe some workarounds that fulfill the requirements for example, we can output two SWFs, one based on Starling and one with normal graphic classes. Or output an HTML site for accessibility. I agree there seems less focus on Flex for FP / AIR. Some areas are getting focus such as feature parity of mx components. I think a lot of new Spark components are in the 4.10 release (or next release?). I would love to see more performance improvements in the next version of Flex. There is a lot of warm just in case code that is running. I'd like to improve this at some point in the future. For example, if we know an animation does not affect child or parent components layout then disable validation on those components while an animation is running or take bitmap snapshots of components and animate the snapshots (I think something like this is in some effect classes). There are a couple of good things about the FlexJS project that may not be apparent to us as Flex users. That is, if FlexJS becomes popular (especially to HTML devs) then it brings Flex into a good light. When HTML devs see how they can create great apps with the Flex syntax they're learning and using they'll see they can cross compile to FP and AIR for free. Then, their client says we now want to run that app on mobile. Then being able to compile to Flash and AIR becomes a valuable asset to them. I think it has been more difficult than it should for people to donate existing code to the project. I think Tink has lots of components but where are they? If his stuff isn't in the download what chance do any of us have? On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Joel Tan wrote: > Hi, I am a fan of Flex, I love Flex very much, most of my projects are > done by using Flex. > > > I'm not entirely convinced that this is the best route, but it certainly > is a clean route to take. I'm afraid about community fragmentation and > basically leaving out current Flex on FP users, because "all the cool kids" > will jump to FlexJS and then, obviously, the amount of support for Flex on > FP will be smaller. Maybe I'm wrong, here, don't know. > > > I do agree with what Sebastian Zarzycki are mentioning, HTML5 might not be > the best route. For me personally I would prefer to output my project in > SWF format rather than HTML, even though we might have an option to output > it in HTML5 format later with FlexJS. There are always browser > incompatibility and performance issue in HTML format. > > Does Apache Flex has a plan to build Flex on top of Starling or Stage3D? > Like what Feather UI is doing (http://feathersui.com/), it looks > promising, even some of them in forum were thinking of Feather UI might > replacing Flex, but of course it's not ( > http://forum.starling-framework.org/topic/feathers-ultimate-vision-and-roadmap > ). > > Personally I felt Flex shouldn't stay away from Flash Player and AIR, Flex > is great because it runs within Flash Player (it might not the case if it's > in HTML), I don't feel anything bad or wrong to rely on FP and AIR, we need > to restore our faith towards ADOBE, they have done a great jobs, we need to > be still even the world seem to be moving all out for HTML5, but in our > heart deeply we know Flex is better in many ways, Flash Player is > consistent, ready and mature. Reply on FP and AIR will save us a lot of > time fulfilling cross-platform, we only do our part (Flex SDK), the rest > leave it to ADOBE. ADOBE is still serious about their Flash Player and AIR > (look at the frequency update of FP/AIR recently), that is the reason why > they never open-source it. > > Sorry for my English, I am from the other part of this world where isn't > an English speaking country. > > Thanks for all the great works for sustaining Flex! > > > > > Joel T. > > > > > > > On Jun 28, 2013, at 4:58 PM, Sebastian Zarzycki < > sebastian.zarzy...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >> I assume you prefer a web forum style? I find web forums slow, buggy, > slow and hard to search on, hard to use on mobile devices and assume you're > always have a connection. Each to their own. > > > > > > I'd say so, yes. > > > >>> - arm Flex beautifully for mobile. > >> What do you need needs to be one here? > > > > > > This was more of a mind-shortcut. Not really about Flex, but mobile > products built with Flex and targeted for AIR. Current mobile-specific API > is very modest, and I'd say most of things found here - > http://d
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Hi, I am a fan of Flex, I love Flex very much, most of my projects are done by using Flex. > I'm not entirely convinced that this is the best route, but it certainly is a > clean route to take. I'm afraid about community fragmentation and basically > leaving out current Flex on FP users, because "all the cool kids" will jump > to FlexJS and then, obviously, the amount of support for Flex on FP will be > smaller. Maybe I'm wrong, here, don't know. I do agree with what Sebastian Zarzycki are mentioning, HTML5 might not be the best route. For me personally I would prefer to output my project in SWF format rather than HTML, even though we might have an option to output it in HTML5 format later with FlexJS. There are always browser incompatibility and performance issue in HTML format. Does Apache Flex has a plan to build Flex on top of Starling or Stage3D? Like what Feather UI is doing (http://feathersui.com/), it looks promising, even some of them in forum were thinking of Feather UI might replacing Flex, but of course it's not (http://forum.starling-framework.org/topic/feathers-ultimate-vision-and-roadmap). Personally I felt Flex shouldn't stay away from Flash Player and AIR, Flex is great because it runs within Flash Player (it might not the case if it's in HTML), I don't feel anything bad or wrong to rely on FP and AIR, we need to restore our faith towards ADOBE, they have done a great jobs, we need to be still even the world seem to be moving all out for HTML5, but in our heart deeply we know Flex is better in many ways, Flash Player is consistent, ready and mature. Reply on FP and AIR will save us a lot of time fulfilling cross-platform, we only do our part (Flex SDK), the rest leave it to ADOBE. ADOBE is still serious about their Flash Player and AIR (look at the frequency update of FP/AIR recently), that is the reason why they never open-source it. Sorry for my English, I am from the other part of this world where isn't an English speaking country. Thanks for all the great works for sustaining Flex! Joel T. On Jun 28, 2013, at 4:58 PM, Sebastian Zarzycki wrote: > >> I assume you prefer a web forum style? I find web forums slow, buggy, slow >> and hard to search on, hard to use on mobile devices and assume you're >> always have a connection. Each to their own. > > > I'd say so, yes. > >>> - arm Flex beautifully for mobile. >> What do you need needs to be one here? > > > This was more of a mind-shortcut. Not really about Flex, but mobile products > built with Flex and targeted for AIR. Current mobile-specific API is very > modest, and I'd say most of things found here - > http://distriqt.com/native-extensions - should be a part of the API, not > something you have to additionally buy (but thanks Distriqt, that at least > there is such opportunity). > > That said, I've bumped into several Flex mobile bugs leading to runtime > crashes (usually related to layout, visible or includeInLayout). In spare > time I'll try to isolate and reproduce them to present an example. > Then, we have the case of AS-only itemrenderers. Maybe we could start using > MXML instead. Mobile processors improved significantly last few years. > >> 1) You recommended we talk to banks and other businesses. I assume you >> have. Do you have any data you can share with us? I've been pondering >> how to get reliable data on what, if anything, folks are looking for. In >> December 2011, Adobe invited several major banks and other major Flex >> customers to a summit. In my conversations with the attendees, the desire >> to have a migration path for their Flash-based Flex apps to HTML/JS/CSS >> was my main takeaway, and that is what I've been working on with the >> FlexJS prototypes. > > That's pretty much my own experience as well. Most of these transitions are > in "experimental research" mode so far and flex apps are mostly still > supported in legacy mode. But that PR stunt in 2011 hurt Flex/Flash > significantly and some decisions are often made on a very high level, > instantly making Flex inferior. Now, the question is, do they need FlexJS, > because they actually need/want JS or do they want FlexJS, because it's just > a scare game (they don't want flash and "old flex", because lack of Adobe > support, etc.). If the latter, how confident are we, that they will accept > "new Flex", when the name still drags a burden for them, even if it's a > complete new product targeted for different VM? I don't have answers for > that. I do realize that liberating Flex from FP is a move for the future. But > then again, I am less and less convinced that the future will be about > javascript applications in the browser. > > >> 2) The list of changes you would like to see to current Flex matches up >> pretty much with what we've seen and heard from the community. > > No surprise there. I think it's just time-related. I've seen that recent > changelog for 4.10 and
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
This is how we solve the problem of Integrating existing Flex into HTML5 based apps. Cheers, Alain 2013/6/28 Erik de Bruin > Hi, > > > Folks, I've decided to reedit that post on Spicefactory. It was created > in a hurry and with a certain amount of (maybe unnecessary) bitterness in > mind. Since it's public, it certainly doesn't help Apache Flex perception. > These opinions should be presented and voiced internally on this list as I > just did, but I don't think it's necessary to spill "bad blood" in outer > community outlets, as I still want Flex to be as good as possible and > thriving. > > Thank you, that is very decent of you. > > I agree with some of what you say, especially the communication part. > At one point we got something started (Scott??), but that fizzled out > pretty soon. For stuff like that, we need volunteers. To get > volunteers we need to 'fish' in the world out there, which requires > communication... catch 22. To put it bluntly, the current contributors > - myself included as a worst case example - like code better than > communication (other than talking about code, obviously ;-). Where do > we find experienced, enthusiastic new blood to take on that part of a > successful project? > > EdB > > > > -- > Ix Multimedia Software > > Jan Luykenstraat 27 > 3521 VB Utrecht > > T. 06-51952295 > I. www.ixsoftware.nl >
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Hi, > Folks, I've decided to reedit that post on Spicefactory. It was created in a > hurry and with a certain amount of (maybe unnecessary) bitterness in mind. > Since it's public, it certainly doesn't help Apache Flex perception. These > opinions should be presented and voiced internally on this list as I just > did, but I don't think it's necessary to spill "bad blood" in outer community > outlets, as I still want Flex to be as good as possible and thriving. Thank you, that is very decent of you. I agree with some of what you say, especially the communication part. At one point we got something started (Scott??), but that fizzled out pretty soon. For stuff like that, we need volunteers. To get volunteers we need to 'fish' in the world out there, which requires communication... catch 22. To put it bluntly, the current contributors - myself included as a worst case example - like code better than communication (other than talking about code, obviously ;-). Where do we find experienced, enthusiastic new blood to take on that part of a successful project? EdB -- Ix Multimedia Software Jan Luykenstraat 27 3521 VB Utrecht T. 06-51952295 I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
> I assume you prefer a web forum style? I find web forums slow, buggy, slow > and hard to search on, hard to use on mobile devices and assume you're always > have a connection. Each to their own. I'd say so, yes. >> - arm Flex beautifully for mobile. > What do you need needs to be one here? This was more of a mind-shortcut. Not really about Flex, but mobile products built with Flex and targeted for AIR. Current mobile-specific API is very modest, and I'd say most of things found here - http://distriqt.com/native-extensions - should be a part of the API, not something you have to additionally buy (but thanks Distriqt, that at least there is such opportunity). That said, I've bumped into several Flex mobile bugs leading to runtime crashes (usually related to layout, visible or includeInLayout). In spare time I'll try to isolate and reproduce them to present an example. Then, we have the case of AS-only itemrenderers. Maybe we could start using MXML instead. Mobile processors improved significantly last few years. > 1) You recommended we talk to banks and other businesses. I assume you > have. Do you have any data you can share with us? I've been pondering > how to get reliable data on what, if anything, folks are looking for. In > December 2011, Adobe invited several major banks and other major Flex > customers to a summit. In my conversations with the attendees, the desire > to have a migration path for their Flash-based Flex apps to HTML/JS/CSS > was my main takeaway, and that is what I've been working on with the > FlexJS prototypes. That's pretty much my own experience as well. Most of these transitions are in "experimental research" mode so far and flex apps are mostly still supported in legacy mode. But that PR stunt in 2011 hurt Flex/Flash significantly and some decisions are often made on a very high level, instantly making Flex inferior. Now, the question is, do they need FlexJS, because they actually need/want JS or do they want FlexJS, because it's just a scare game (they don't want flash and "old flex", because lack of Adobe support, etc.). If the latter, how confident are we, that they will accept "new Flex", when the name still drags a burden for them, even if it's a complete new product targeted for different VM? I don't have answers for that. I do realize that liberating Flex from FP is a move for the future. But then again, I am less and less convinced that the future will be about javascript applications in the browser. > 2) The list of changes you would like to see to current Flex matches up > pretty much with what we've seen and heard from the community. No surprise there. I think it's just time-related. I've seen that recent changelog for 4.10 and it definitely looks good. I understand that resources are limited. > Flex suffers from being "warm everywhere". One of the > reasons the AS-side of the FlexJS framework uses small re-usable pieces is > in an attempt to take advantage of the JIT and run certain chunks of code > more often. And keep in mind that the current SDK is heavily tied to Flash > and its performance characteristics are outside the control of Apache > Flex. Agreed. I do realize that lot of performance is tied to FP and there's little that can be done. I don't feel that JS is an answer, but then again I also don't have better answer for this. These are just opinions. > 3) It is certainly possible that FlexJS or any of the other variants of > Flex on JS may never be successful, but for sure, FlexJS does not have the > layers you claim it does. It just compiles MXML and AS to JS. When I run > the examples, the JS versions actually start up faster than the SWF > versions. And, when I get more databinding working, I'm going to start a > discussion about cutting releases of this stuff. Yes, the first releases > will be 'alpha' quality, but it will get better faster by getting more > folks to bang on it. Meanwhile, I have an internal "customer" that is > trying to migrate a real-world application on to FlexJS so I will be in > the loop on how this framework scales. And anybody else is welcome to try > to port their applications as well. Alex, this is great news. I remember you being extrahelpful on various occasions and it's really nice that you're still working on this. This sort of news should be trumpeted all over the blogosphere. Please, communicate these things outside, even if they're not yet done. This is where Apache Flex really lacks. Before everything is ready, I feel it's important to lay the red carpet before and slowly start to change the way people think and present with new options. Again, I'm not entirely convinced that this is the best route, but it certainly is a clean route to take. I'm afraid about community fragmentation and basically leaving out current Flex on FP users, because "all the cool kids" will jump to FlexJS and then, obviously, the amount of support for Flex on FP will be sm
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Hi, Thanks for the time to reply and sorry if you feel you post was taken out of context. You're certainly welcome to express your views on this list and elsewhere. > - It's not the problem of Apache or any other community. I still stand by > "meritocracy" doesn't work. Just because other models exist doesn't mean that meritocracy doesn't work. I think there are many successful project at Apache (and elsewhere) that show otherwise. This doesn't mean that it's easy however. There are issues with managed by one person model. For instance what happens when that person (in time) move on to something else? Or when there a disagreement in direction. Who pays for or encourages developers to give time/implementing the vision? How do you build a community around this? All of these have been issues with some of the Flex frameworks that had this model. Without significant funding and resources I couldn't that model working with Flex long term and it's not the Apache way. Of course anyone is welcome to take the Flex project, fork it and run with it how they want. > What's more, it's an idea and a global platform people invested a lot in. > This sort of responsibility cannot be handled by "community". Community tends > to come and go, flow by. The people that invested a lot in Flex are part of the community, it up to them how they want to contribute or not. > - The way Apache's doing things feels very archaic to me sometimes. Mailing > lists? Really? Mailing lists are needed so that a) everything is in the open and b) given that people live in different timezone around the world a way to easily respond. I assume you prefer a web forum style? I find web forums slow, buggy, slow and hard to search on, hard to use on mobile devices and assume you're always have a connection. Each to their own. But there's no reason why we can't have both this has been raised before and doesn't look too hard to set up. See https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FLEX-33536 Anyone up to help out here? > Then we have links to apache and markmail. Case study - Markmail for users > mailing lists doesn't work. Also been raised before. Anyone? https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FLEX-33538 > - improve on skinning/styling approach. It's a known fact, that Flex 4 is > generally slower than Flex 3. That's no good. Generally slower yes but some people feel it has other advantages. The right question to ask is it fast enough for what I need done? In most cases the answer is yes. All frameworks are tradeoff between convenience, functionally, time saving on one hand and performance on the other. There's also the question given that spark was build around Adobe tooling that is no longer being developed further, is spark actually a good direction to go in? Quick often when doing simple things I find spark and skinning gets in the way, when the older CSS styling in mx does the job simply and effectively. > - get rid of mx totally and fill in missing spark parts That is being done, there's a fair number of new spark components in the new experimental namespace. Like everything this takes time and effort. But I don't see we can get rid of mx entirely, there still a lot of flex out here that uses mx and I don;t think it what users of the SDK would want. He still get JIRA issues raised against Flex 3 :-) > - clean and easy to access 3rd party component market / shareplace That's possibly a good business opportunity for someone, but Adobe tried this many times (anyone remember central?) and never managed to really get it off the ground. > - figure out the global chokepoints and improve on speed There still places where I feel speed can be improved and we have better tools (advanced telemetry) to make the job easier. There are not going to be order of magnitude speed improvements but will be significant, there already been some significant speed improvements with CSS styling and the ADG. > Flex 4 performance is currently a laughing stock. I have to disagree on that point, and its certainly not been my experience. > - arm Flex beautifully for mobile. What do you need needs to be one here? Thanks for the ideas on where you see Flex needs to be improved - feedback is always useful. Thanks, Justin
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
OmPrakash, Same here, I'm extremely pleased at it's performance and cross platform compatibility. Our mobile apps are of the same caliber, data intensive, charts, graphs, submissions, maps, gps ... blah blah blah - on and on, and it performs like an all out champ. The resolution and pixel density is the most annoying, it would be cool to have some way to automatically take care of that. The only other issue I've noticed is with the iPhone. For instance, accessing and catching images with imagePromise and working with files requires a few tricks, but having looked into the issues and Apples unique way of doing their own thing, I can't complain. But ya, Flex Mobile has been a god send. On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 3:43 PM, OmPrakash Muppirala wrote: > Hi, > > I just want to throw in that I have been doing a bunch of apps with Flex > mobile and am constantly amazed at how good it performs across devices. I > am talking about data intensive visualizations with a lot of number > crunching, charts and animations. > > Of course, as with Objective-C or Java, you need to be very careful about > orchestrating your code so that it does not choke the system. > > And I have been testing the apps on my Galaxy Tab and iPad, and all real > issues I have been facing is related to dpi mismatches and such. > > So, when folks are saying that Flex does not perform well on mobile, can > you please post some examples, etc so we can try to figure out what the > real problems? As opposed to sweeping statements like Flex mobile sucks, > etc. > > Thanks, > Om > > On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Alain Ekambi >wrote: > > > @Alex > > > > I can share my experience concerning 1) > > > > Most of our customers dont want to migrate their app to JS. > > What they want is an easy way to integrate exiting JS libraries into > their > > Flex app. > > For example hoe to integrate the JS Google Maps API with their existing > > Flex apps or How can I integrate my nice Flex DateGrid into this Ext JS > > application ? > > > > I said it once. Request for our Flash based stuff has increased over the > > time. Simply because Flash still does a lot of things better and > > more efficiently than JS. > > Even after the Adobe mess nothing changed for us. As a matter of fact we > > are looking to hire more people. > > > > So I dont know how is others people experience. But we lve Flex as it > > is around here. > > > > Cheers. > > > > > > 2013/6/27 Alex Harui > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Thanks for writing and providing more detail. I have the following > > > questions and comments. > > > > > > 1) You recommended we talk to banks and other businesses. I assume you > > > have. Do you have any data you can share with us? I've been pondering > > > how to get reliable data on what, if anything, folks are looking for. > In > > > December 2011, Adobe invited several major banks and other major Flex > > > customers to a summit. In my conversations with the attendees, the > > desire > > > to have a migration path for their Flash-based Flex apps to HTML/JS/CSS > > > was my main takeaway, and that is what I've been working on with the > > > FlexJS prototypes. Of course, it's been 18 months since then so things > > > could have changed, so if you have more recent data to share, it would > > > save the community some time. Your list was much for Flash-based than > I > > > would have expected, but maybe these banks are no longer in such a > hurry > > > to migrate. > > > > > > 2) The list of changes you would like to see to current Flex matches up > > > pretty much with what we've seen and heard from the community. Yes, we > > > all wish more could have been done regarding these topics in the past > 18 > > > months, but to be 'realistic', the number of developer hours spent on > the > > > Flex SDK per-day has dropped significantly since Adobe donated Flex to > > > Apache. It would be nice to see more folks get paid by their employers > > to > > > work full time on Apache Flex, but it hasn't happened. And consider > > that, > > > in the area of performance, several Adobe engineers spent a lot of time > > > trying to find ways to improve performance and there aren't any global > > > hotspots left. Flex suffers from being "warm everywhere". One of the > > > reasons the AS-side of the FlexJS framework uses small re-usable pieces > > is > > > in an attempt to take advantage of the JIT and run certain chunks of > code > > > more often. And keep in mind that the current SDK is heavily tied to > > Flash > > > and its performance characteristics are outside the control of Apache > > > Flex. So, we can all wish for more, but at this point, I think you > have > > > to lower your expectations of how the current SDK can be made faster. > > > I've given up on anything other than the full rewrite I'm doing with > > > FlexJS. > > > > > > 3) It is certainly possible that FlexJS or any of the other variants of > > > Flex on JS may never be successful, but for sure, FlexJS
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Hi, I just want to throw in that I have been doing a bunch of apps with Flex mobile and am constantly amazed at how good it performs across devices. I am talking about data intensive visualizations with a lot of number crunching, charts and animations. Of course, as with Objective-C or Java, you need to be very careful about orchestrating your code so that it does not choke the system. And I have been testing the apps on my Galaxy Tab and iPad, and all real issues I have been facing is related to dpi mismatches and such. So, when folks are saying that Flex does not perform well on mobile, can you please post some examples, etc so we can try to figure out what the real problems? As opposed to sweeping statements like Flex mobile sucks, etc. Thanks, Om On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Alain Ekambi wrote: > @Alex > > I can share my experience concerning 1) > > Most of our customers dont want to migrate their app to JS. > What they want is an easy way to integrate exiting JS libraries into their > Flex app. > For example hoe to integrate the JS Google Maps API with their existing > Flex apps or How can I integrate my nice Flex DateGrid into this Ext JS > application ? > > I said it once. Request for our Flash based stuff has increased over the > time. Simply because Flash still does a lot of things better and > more efficiently than JS. > Even after the Adobe mess nothing changed for us. As a matter of fact we > are looking to hire more people. > > So I dont know how is others people experience. But we lve Flex as it > is around here. > > Cheers. > > > 2013/6/27 Alex Harui > > > Hi, > > > > Thanks for writing and providing more detail. I have the following > > questions and comments. > > > > 1) You recommended we talk to banks and other businesses. I assume you > > have. Do you have any data you can share with us? I've been pondering > > how to get reliable data on what, if anything, folks are looking for. In > > December 2011, Adobe invited several major banks and other major Flex > > customers to a summit. In my conversations with the attendees, the > desire > > to have a migration path for their Flash-based Flex apps to HTML/JS/CSS > > was my main takeaway, and that is what I've been working on with the > > FlexJS prototypes. Of course, it's been 18 months since then so things > > could have changed, so if you have more recent data to share, it would > > save the community some time. Your list was much for Flash-based than I > > would have expected, but maybe these banks are no longer in such a hurry > > to migrate. > > > > 2) The list of changes you would like to see to current Flex matches up > > pretty much with what we've seen and heard from the community. Yes, we > > all wish more could have been done regarding these topics in the past 18 > > months, but to be 'realistic', the number of developer hours spent on the > > Flex SDK per-day has dropped significantly since Adobe donated Flex to > > Apache. It would be nice to see more folks get paid by their employers > to > > work full time on Apache Flex, but it hasn't happened. And consider > that, > > in the area of performance, several Adobe engineers spent a lot of time > > trying to find ways to improve performance and there aren't any global > > hotspots left. Flex suffers from being "warm everywhere". One of the > > reasons the AS-side of the FlexJS framework uses small re-usable pieces > is > > in an attempt to take advantage of the JIT and run certain chunks of code > > more often. And keep in mind that the current SDK is heavily tied to > Flash > > and its performance characteristics are outside the control of Apache > > Flex. So, we can all wish for more, but at this point, I think you have > > to lower your expectations of how the current SDK can be made faster. > > I've given up on anything other than the full rewrite I'm doing with > > FlexJS. > > > > 3) It is certainly possible that FlexJS or any of the other variants of > > Flex on JS may never be successful, but for sure, FlexJS does not have > the > > layers you claim it does. It just compiles MXML and AS to JS. When I run > > the examples, the JS versions actually start up faster than the SWF > > versions. And, when I get more databinding working, I'm going to start a > > discussion about cutting releases of this stuff. Yes, the first releases > > will be 'alpha' quality, but it will get better faster by getting more > > folks to bang on it. Meanwhile, I have an internal "customer" that is > > trying to migrate a real-world application on to FlexJS so I will be in > > the loop on how this framework scales. And anybody else is welcome to > try > > to port their applications as well. > > > > 4) Many of us in the Apache Flex community are doing a lot of work that > > isn't sexy. If you don't believe me, you try getting a mustella test > > engine to work with Jenkins or fix dozens of date-localization bugs. I > am > > doing what I think is on the top of the
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Hi Sebastian, You quoted the last of 3 posts in that thread. To me, the most important snippet is in the original post where the OP asks: "Jens, if you're still around..." The point of donating Swiz or Parsley or any existing code base to Apache is that at Apache, there are mailing lists that you know people are reading. If I was a consumer of Parsley but didn't have the skills or time to make changes to it, I would be worried about how to get maintenance and support for it. But if Parsley was donated to Apache, I might not have that worry. Jens is incorrect about whether Apache can just take a fork. Legally it can, it from a policy perspective, Apache does not "take" code. I suppose we could argue that Jens' post gives us permission, but it would be better if he was more explicit, and if the code is copyrighted to Spice Factory instead of Jens personally, we probably need a Software Grant from Spice Factory. Apache is a corporation and does come with more overhead than a GitHub project probably does, but that overhead provides legal, process, and infrastructural guarantees that should draw more corporate customers. -Alex On 6/27/13 4:23 AM, "Sebastian Mohr" wrote: >Hi there, > >just wonder what you think about this forum post of the SpiceFactory forum >[1]: > >"With all due respect, I don't believe Apache did anything good with Flex. >They struggle with a lot of internal bureaucracy and I believe that >without >clear leadership, this "meritocracy" thing just doesn't work. For the past >year, Apache Flex community debated whether they should move to Git and >right now when they did, they figured out that most people don't know how >to use it, etc. etc. In other words, to much "nerd" driven, not enough >"business realistic" driven." > >[1] http://www.spicefactory.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3803 > > >-- >Sebastian (PPMC) >Interaction Designer > >Looking for a Login Example with Apache Flex? Please check out this code: >http://code.google.com/p/masuland/wiki/LoginExample
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
@Alex I can share my experience concerning 1) Most of our customers dont want to migrate their app to JS. What they want is an easy way to integrate exiting JS libraries into their Flex app. For example hoe to integrate the JS Google Maps API with their existing Flex apps or How can I integrate my nice Flex DateGrid into this Ext JS application ? I said it once. Request for our Flash based stuff has increased over the time. Simply because Flash still does a lot of things better and more efficiently than JS. Even after the Adobe mess nothing changed for us. As a matter of fact we are looking to hire more people. So I dont know how is others people experience. But we lve Flex as it is around here. Cheers. 2013/6/27 Alex Harui > Hi, > > Thanks for writing and providing more detail. I have the following > questions and comments. > > 1) You recommended we talk to banks and other businesses. I assume you > have. Do you have any data you can share with us? I've been pondering > how to get reliable data on what, if anything, folks are looking for. In > December 2011, Adobe invited several major banks and other major Flex > customers to a summit. In my conversations with the attendees, the desire > to have a migration path for their Flash-based Flex apps to HTML/JS/CSS > was my main takeaway, and that is what I've been working on with the > FlexJS prototypes. Of course, it's been 18 months since then so things > could have changed, so if you have more recent data to share, it would > save the community some time. Your list was much for Flash-based than I > would have expected, but maybe these banks are no longer in such a hurry > to migrate. > > 2) The list of changes you would like to see to current Flex matches up > pretty much with what we've seen and heard from the community. Yes, we > all wish more could have been done regarding these topics in the past 18 > months, but to be 'realistic', the number of developer hours spent on the > Flex SDK per-day has dropped significantly since Adobe donated Flex to > Apache. It would be nice to see more folks get paid by their employers to > work full time on Apache Flex, but it hasn't happened. And consider that, > in the area of performance, several Adobe engineers spent a lot of time > trying to find ways to improve performance and there aren't any global > hotspots left. Flex suffers from being "warm everywhere". One of the > reasons the AS-side of the FlexJS framework uses small re-usable pieces is > in an attempt to take advantage of the JIT and run certain chunks of code > more often. And keep in mind that the current SDK is heavily tied to Flash > and its performance characteristics are outside the control of Apache > Flex. So, we can all wish for more, but at this point, I think you have > to lower your expectations of how the current SDK can be made faster. > I've given up on anything other than the full rewrite I'm doing with > FlexJS. > > 3) It is certainly possible that FlexJS or any of the other variants of > Flex on JS may never be successful, but for sure, FlexJS does not have the > layers you claim it does. It just compiles MXML and AS to JS. When I run > the examples, the JS versions actually start up faster than the SWF > versions. And, when I get more databinding working, I'm going to start a > discussion about cutting releases of this stuff. Yes, the first releases > will be 'alpha' quality, but it will get better faster by getting more > folks to bang on it. Meanwhile, I have an internal "customer" that is > trying to migrate a real-world application on to FlexJS so I will be in > the loop on how this framework scales. And anybody else is welcome to try > to port their applications as well. > > 4) Many of us in the Apache Flex community are doing a lot of work that > isn't sexy. If you don't believe me, you try getting a mustella test > engine to work with Jenkins or fix dozens of date-localization bugs. I am > doing what I think is on the top of the community's list that provides the > biggest bang for my time. Continuing to look for small increments in > performance isn't going to have the pay-off of trying to make your apps > run without Flash. But if you have data to the contrary, please share. > > -Alex > > On 6/27/13 11:42 AM, "Sebastian Zarzycki" > wrote: > > >Hello, > > > >Sebastian Zarzycki here, author of that unfortunate post on > >spicefactory.org forums. First of all, apologies, if this will not hit > >the right list or will land in a wrong spot. Last time I've used mailing > >lists was around '95 and it's definitely not a user-friendly experience > >to hop in and respond quickly to a given post. But here goes. > > > >First of all, as mentioned already on spicefactory.org forums, my > >opinions are my own. I don't feel it was perfectly ok to bring up my > >response to this list, taking it out of the context and without notifying > >me. Might be oversensitive here, but I would probably play it > >differ
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Hi, Thanks for writing and providing more detail. I have the following questions and comments. 1) You recommended we talk to banks and other businesses. I assume you have. Do you have any data you can share with us? I've been pondering how to get reliable data on what, if anything, folks are looking for. In December 2011, Adobe invited several major banks and other major Flex customers to a summit. In my conversations with the attendees, the desire to have a migration path for their Flash-based Flex apps to HTML/JS/CSS was my main takeaway, and that is what I've been working on with the FlexJS prototypes. Of course, it's been 18 months since then so things could have changed, so if you have more recent data to share, it would save the community some time. Your list was much for Flash-based than I would have expected, but maybe these banks are no longer in such a hurry to migrate. 2) The list of changes you would like to see to current Flex matches up pretty much with what we've seen and heard from the community. Yes, we all wish more could have been done regarding these topics in the past 18 months, but to be 'realistic', the number of developer hours spent on the Flex SDK per-day has dropped significantly since Adobe donated Flex to Apache. It would be nice to see more folks get paid by their employers to work full time on Apache Flex, but it hasn't happened. And consider that, in the area of performance, several Adobe engineers spent a lot of time trying to find ways to improve performance and there aren't any global hotspots left. Flex suffers from being "warm everywhere". One of the reasons the AS-side of the FlexJS framework uses small re-usable pieces is in an attempt to take advantage of the JIT and run certain chunks of code more often. And keep in mind that the current SDK is heavily tied to Flash and its performance characteristics are outside the control of Apache Flex. So, we can all wish for more, but at this point, I think you have to lower your expectations of how the current SDK can be made faster. I've given up on anything other than the full rewrite I'm doing with FlexJS. 3) It is certainly possible that FlexJS or any of the other variants of Flex on JS may never be successful, but for sure, FlexJS does not have the layers you claim it does. It just compiles MXML and AS to JS. When I run the examples, the JS versions actually start up faster than the SWF versions. And, when I get more databinding working, I'm going to start a discussion about cutting releases of this stuff. Yes, the first releases will be 'alpha' quality, but it will get better faster by getting more folks to bang on it. Meanwhile, I have an internal "customer" that is trying to migrate a real-world application on to FlexJS so I will be in the loop on how this framework scales. And anybody else is welcome to try to port their applications as well. 4) Many of us in the Apache Flex community are doing a lot of work that isn't sexy. If you don't believe me, you try getting a mustella test engine to work with Jenkins or fix dozens of date-localization bugs. I am doing what I think is on the top of the community's list that provides the biggest bang for my time. Continuing to look for small increments in performance isn't going to have the pay-off of trying to make your apps run without Flash. But if you have data to the contrary, please share. -Alex On 6/27/13 11:42 AM, "Sebastian Zarzycki" wrote: >Hello, > >Sebastian Zarzycki here, author of that unfortunate post on >spicefactory.org forums. First of all, apologies, if this will not hit >the right list or will land in a wrong spot. Last time I've used mailing >lists was around '95 and it's definitely not a user-friendly experience >to hop in and respond quickly to a given post. But here goes. > >First of all, as mentioned already on spicefactory.org forums, my >opinions are my own. I don't feel it was perfectly ok to bring up my >response to this list, taking it out of the context and without notifying >me. Might be oversensitive here, but I would probably play it >differently. But that's a minor issue really. >Second, I've started my Flex experience, when Flex 2 was in beta, and >Flex 1.5 was paid server. This was long time ago (around 2005 I think). >I've seen all the changes that happened. I've contributed a lot to Flex >during those days, fixed lots of bugs. I even might still have somewhere >my "Making Adobe Flex Better" shirt created and mailed out to Jira >contributors back then. If you happen to have it, you will find out my >name there. This is obviously not a bragging contest, but to make you >realize, I'm here from (almost) the very beginning. > >I'd like to expand on that initial post, as I'm sure it feels quite >negative and aggressive in that form. Wasn't my intention to undermine >the work that was done on Apache Flex during that time and to discourage >great people that devote their spare time to improve on things. My hats >off
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
@Sebastian No Offense but GWT is probably the best web framework out there. If you really understand what GWT can do for you wil never look to something else. I wrote something about it sometimes ago http://ekambi.blogspot.de/2013/06/why-gwt-is-awesome.html I always said it Flex as it is right now is in good shape. There s nothing wrong with running inside the Flash player. It s by trying to be an answer to everything that we will shoot ourself in the foot. If we are trying to cross compile to JS because of mobile then we should stop already. Our experience(at Emitrom) has shown that when planing mobile (98%)people dont even think about Flex. They just dont want it. Make flex the best framework for dekstop computer and enterprise app and that s should be enough. There are just so many things that are still a pain to implement in Flex. That where we should start. Cheers, Alain 2013/6/27 Thomas Wright > perhaps use a google account for your mailing lists by actually logging > into the web interface. Google handles lists very well. You rarely have to > deal with Re: Re: Re's and 5x indented quotes. It automagickally cuts all > that nonsense out and you get a clean and readable stream. I use a client > for everything else, but the google mail UI handles lists extremely well, I > highly recommend it. > > > On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Sebastian Zarzycki < > sebastian.zarzy...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > This is probably a matter of personal preference. Developers do many > weird > > things that regular people do not :) developers might still prefer vi > over > > textmate and use sendmail. There might be other advantages I don't know > of, > > but for the average user, this form of communication is troublesome. I > > don't feel I have to clog my mailing box and invent some filters, in > order > > to communicate, scan for RE:RE:RE: topics and then dig through plenty of > > text, quoted, unquoted to the 4th level, fishing out for the actual > > response. Maybe it's just a whim. Or maybe I just feel too old for this > :) > > We live in the technology world. We can do better. I just know that > > sometimes developers have a different definition of "better" :) Above > > everything else, whatever works for developers is probably ok and I don't > > mind (and shouldn't mind). But the user-driven community could for sure > use > > a better format. > > > > S. > > > > > > ah, and on the mailing list bit - I've never been involved in any sort > of > >> major OS project that doesn't use mailing lists. Even wordpress uses > >> mailing lists. I'm curious, how is it that you feel they are archaic? I > >> find them extremely useful and quite common among development groups. > >> > >> > > > > > -- > *Thomas Wright* > Software Engineer > Extension: 1054 > Office: [801] 464.4600 > > Corporate Division > twri...@yesco.com >
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
perhaps use a google account for your mailing lists by actually logging into the web interface. Google handles lists very well. You rarely have to deal with Re: Re: Re's and 5x indented quotes. It automagickally cuts all that nonsense out and you get a clean and readable stream. I use a client for everything else, but the google mail UI handles lists extremely well, I highly recommend it. On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Sebastian Zarzycki < sebastian.zarzy...@gmail.com> wrote: > This is probably a matter of personal preference. Developers do many weird > things that regular people do not :) developers might still prefer vi over > textmate and use sendmail. There might be other advantages I don't know of, > but for the average user, this form of communication is troublesome. I > don't feel I have to clog my mailing box and invent some filters, in order > to communicate, scan for RE:RE:RE: topics and then dig through plenty of > text, quoted, unquoted to the 4th level, fishing out for the actual > response. Maybe it's just a whim. Or maybe I just feel too old for this :) > We live in the technology world. We can do better. I just know that > sometimes developers have a different definition of "better" :) Above > everything else, whatever works for developers is probably ok and I don't > mind (and shouldn't mind). But the user-driven community could for sure use > a better format. > > S. > > > ah, and on the mailing list bit - I've never been involved in any sort of >> major OS project that doesn't use mailing lists. Even wordpress uses >> mailing lists. I'm curious, how is it that you feel they are archaic? I >> find them extremely useful and quite common among development groups. >> >> > -- *Thomas Wright* Software Engineer Extension: 1054 Office: [801] 464.4600 Corporate Division twri...@yesco.com
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
This is probably a matter of personal preference. Developers do many weird things that regular people do not :) developers might still prefer vi over textmate and use sendmail. There might be other advantages I don't know of, but for the average user, this form of communication is troublesome. I don't feel I have to clog my mailing box and invent some filters, in order to communicate, scan for RE:RE:RE: topics and then dig through plenty of text, quoted, unquoted to the 4th level, fishing out for the actual response. Maybe it's just a whim. Or maybe I just feel too old for this :) We live in the technology world. We can do better. I just know that sometimes developers have a different definition of "better" :) Above everything else, whatever works for developers is probably ok and I don't mind (and shouldn't mind). But the user-driven community could for sure use a better format. S. ah, and on the mailing list bit - I've never been involved in any sort of major OS project that doesn't use mailing lists. Even wordpress uses mailing lists. I'm curious, how is it that you feel they are archaic? I find them extremely useful and quite common among development groups.
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
ah, and on the mailing list bit - I've never been involved in any sort of major OS project that doesn't use mailing lists. Even wordpress uses mailing lists. I'm curious, how is it that you feel they are archaic? I find them extremely useful and quite common among development groups. On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Thomas Wright wrote: > Strange how things come around. Definitely a surprise to see the poster > find this list and reply. > First off, you absolutely have the right to voice your opinion. You should > never feel like you can't. I hold the freedom of speech and opinion in much > higher regard than the possibility of that freedom inadvertently offending. > I can't really speak on behalf of the hard working developers, but I can > sympathize with you. Our company runs mission critical apps that have > completely been build on and around Flex. When Adobe announced that they > were no longer going to support flex, but were to hand it off to Apache - > we had execs and managers running around in a frightened panic. > When the Flex conference finally came where there were to be deeper > explanations as to what is going to happen rolled around, our department > heads attended and some of the anxiety was alleviated. > However, there are still concerns, and there will continue to be concerns. > So you should not be emabarassed for posting your concerns. > I'm sure you will recieve responses from the developers that put much more > time and effort into this than my mere list following and occasional > question. > Yes, massive corporations and business do rely heavily on Flex, but they > also rely on Perl, Python, PHP, MySQL, Apache Server and TomCat, Java, etc. > It is a new project, and there is a ramping up and adjustment period that > needs to be considered. Even the most honed and hardcore open source devs > who've planted code in some of the most successful projects can't just > start an OS project and have it be all cream and butter from the start. > Thanks for your reply though, I hope it wasn't too embarrassing to find > your post in the mailing list. But it *was* posted on a public forum, it > may or may not have caught the attention it did had it not been c/p to the > list though. > You have no need to feel weird man. Things get around, and in all honestly > - opinions do matter. > > > On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Sebastian Zarzycki < > sebastian.zarzy...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> Sebastian Zarzycki here, author of that unfortunate post on >> spicefactory.org forums. First of all, apologies, if this will not hit >> the right list or will land in a wrong spot. Last time I've used mailing >> lists was around '95 and it's definitely not a user-friendly experience to >> hop in and respond quickly to a given post. But here goes. >> >> First of all, as mentioned already on spicefactory.org forums, my >> opinions are my own. I don't feel it was perfectly ok to bring up my >> response to this list, taking it out of the context and without notifying >> me. Might be oversensitive here, but I would probably play it differently. >> But that's a minor issue really. >> Second, I've started my Flex experience, when Flex 2 was in beta, and >> Flex 1.5 was paid server. This was long time ago (around 2005 I think). >> I've seen all the changes that happened. I've contributed a lot to Flex >> during those days, fixed lots of bugs. I even might still have somewhere my >> "Making Adobe Flex Better" shirt created and mailed out to Jira >> contributors back then. If you happen to have it, you will find out my name >> there. This is obviously not a bragging contest, but to make you realize, >> I'm here from (almost) the very beginning. >> >> I'd like to expand on that initial post, as I'm sure it feels quite >> negative and aggressive in that form. Wasn't my intention to undermine the >> work that was done on Apache Flex during that time and to discourage great >> people that devote their spare time to improve on things. My hats off to >> you. It's also easy to critic while staying aside and not doing anything to >> help - guilty as charged. But, you can tell that there is a lot of >> frustration in Flex community and this was probably a way of getting it out >> of my chest. I'm pretty sure, opinions on that will vary, but this is all >> right. Then again, I'm quite sure that there are lot of people out there >> who share my views. Whatever you do, doesn't change the flex market >> condition and that's a fact. I observe this list very often from the very >> beginning so I'm quite familiar with all the topics brought to life and the >> way they were tackled. So putting this everything again in a more >> consistent form: >> >> - I still stand by "nothing anything (really) good with Flex". Yes, >> this is harsh. Yes, it's unfair and significantly exaggerated. No, it's not >> really Apache fault. Please bear in mind that this is a bit different than >> "nothing good for Flex". It took a lot of time, b
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Strange how things come around. Definitely a surprise to see the poster find this list and reply. First off, you absolutely have the right to voice your opinion. You should never feel like you can't. I hold the freedom of speech and opinion in much higher regard than the possibility of that freedom inadvertently offending. I can't really speak on behalf of the hard working developers, but I can sympathize with you. Our company runs mission critical apps that have completely been build on and around Flex. When Adobe announced that they were no longer going to support flex, but were to hand it off to Apache - we had execs and managers running around in a frightened panic. When the Flex conference finally came where there were to be deeper explanations as to what is going to happen rolled around, our department heads attended and some of the anxiety was alleviated. However, there are still concerns, and there will continue to be concerns. So you should not be emabarassed for posting your concerns. I'm sure you will recieve responses from the developers that put much more time and effort into this than my mere list following and occasional question. Yes, massive corporations and business do rely heavily on Flex, but they also rely on Perl, Python, PHP, MySQL, Apache Server and TomCat, Java, etc. It is a new project, and there is a ramping up and adjustment period that needs to be considered. Even the most honed and hardcore open source devs who've planted code in some of the most successful projects can't just start an OS project and have it be all cream and butter from the start. Thanks for your reply though, I hope it wasn't too embarrassing to find your post in the mailing list. But it *was* posted on a public forum, it may or may not have caught the attention it did had it not been c/p to the list though. You have no need to feel weird man. Things get around, and in all honestly - opinions do matter. On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Sebastian Zarzycki < sebastian.zarzy...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hello, > > Sebastian Zarzycki here, author of that unfortunate post on > spicefactory.org forums. First of all, apologies, if this will not hit > the right list or will land in a wrong spot. Last time I've used mailing > lists was around '95 and it's definitely not a user-friendly experience to > hop in and respond quickly to a given post. But here goes. > > First of all, as mentioned already on spicefactory.org forums, my > opinions are my own. I don't feel it was perfectly ok to bring up my > response to this list, taking it out of the context and without notifying > me. Might be oversensitive here, but I would probably play it differently. > But that's a minor issue really. > Second, I've started my Flex experience, when Flex 2 was in beta, and Flex > 1.5 was paid server. This was long time ago (around 2005 I think). I've > seen all the changes that happened. I've contributed a lot to Flex during > those days, fixed lots of bugs. I even might still have somewhere my > "Making Adobe Flex Better" shirt created and mailed out to Jira > contributors back then. If you happen to have it, you will find out my name > there. This is obviously not a bragging contest, but to make you realize, > I'm here from (almost) the very beginning. > > I'd like to expand on that initial post, as I'm sure it feels quite > negative and aggressive in that form. Wasn't my intention to undermine the > work that was done on Apache Flex during that time and to discourage great > people that devote their spare time to improve on things. My hats off to > you. It's also easy to critic while staying aside and not doing anything to > help - guilty as charged. But, you can tell that there is a lot of > frustration in Flex community and this was probably a way of getting it out > of my chest. I'm pretty sure, opinions on that will vary, but this is all > right. Then again, I'm quite sure that there are lot of people out there > who share my views. Whatever you do, doesn't change the flex market > condition and that's a fact. I observe this list very often from the very > beginning so I'm quite familiar with all the topics brought to life and the > way they were tackled. So putting this everything again in a more > consistent form: > > - I still stand by "nothing anything (really) good with Flex". Yes, this > is harsh. Yes, it's unfair and significantly exaggerated. No, it's not > really Apache fault. Please bear in mind that this is a bit different than > "nothing good for Flex". It took a lot of time, but there's finally a good > looking website with flashy statements and encouraging content (I always > felt that Adobe was too shy with promoting Flex). There was this migration > and some bugs are fixed - that's fine. But when you consider that so much > time has passed and, in fact, so little done, I fear that the window frame > we could actually turn the tides over is long past us. > > - It's not the problem of Apache or any other community. I
RE: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Hello, Sebastian Zarzycki here, author of that unfortunate post on spicefactory.org forums. First of all, apologies, if this will not hit the right list or will land in a wrong spot. Last time I've used mailing lists was around '95 and it's definitely not a user-friendly experience to hop in and respond quickly to a given post. But here goes. First of all, as mentioned already on spicefactory.org forums, my opinions are my own. I don't feel it was perfectly ok to bring up my response to this list, taking it out of the context and without notifying me. Might be oversensitive here, but I would probably play it differently. But that's a minor issue really. Second, I've started my Flex experience, when Flex 2 was in beta, and Flex 1.5 was paid server. This was long time ago (around 2005 I think). I've seen all the changes that happened. I've contributed a lot to Flex during those days, fixed lots of bugs. I even might still have somewhere my "Making Adobe Flex Better" shirt created and mailed out to Jira contributors back then. If you happen to have it, you will find out my name there. This is obviously not a bragging contest, but to make you realize, I'm here from (almost) the very beginning. I'd like to expand on that initial post, as I'm sure it feels quite negative and aggressive in that form. Wasn't my intention to undermine the work that was done on Apache Flex during that time and to discourage great people that devote their spare time to improve on things. My hats off to you. It's also easy to critic while staying aside and not doing anything to help - guilty as charged. But, you can tell that there is a lot of frustration in Flex community and this was probably a way of getting it out of my chest. I'm pretty sure, opinions on that will vary, but this is all right. Then again, I'm quite sure that there are lot of people out there who share my views. Whatever you do, doesn't change the flex market condition and that's a fact. I observe this list very often from the very beginning so I'm quite familiar with all the topics brought to life and the way they were tackled. So putting this everything again in a more consistent form: - I still stand by "nothing anything (really) good with Flex". Yes, this is harsh. Yes, it's unfair and significantly exaggerated. No, it's not really Apache fault. Please bear in mind that this is a bit different than "nothing good for Flex". It took a lot of time, but there's finally a good looking website with flashy statements and encouraging content (I always felt that Adobe was too shy with promoting Flex). There was this migration and some bugs are fixed - that's fine. But when you consider that so much time has passed and, in fact, so little done, I fear that the window frame we could actually turn the tides over is long past us. - It's not the problem of Apache or any other community. I still stand by "meritocracy" doesn't work. The reality is that certain pieces of work, especially in code, have to managed by one person. The person that has the general vision and when things go bad, can smash the fist on the table and say "No! It will be the way I want it to be!". That person can set up a plan, a roadmap and then find people who are going to fulfill that roadmap. This is (over-generalizing) what Adobe was doing and it was good. In Apache, we have "meritocracy" which basically means "work on whatever you want, whenever you want". This might be ok for smaller projects, but Flex is no small project. What's more, it's an idea and a global platform people invested a lot in. This sort of responsibility cannot be handled by "community". Community tends to come and go, flow by. Here you just need a solid vision and a solid development and marketing force. Without clear leadership and commitment, I simply don't see it. You might disagree, but then again, there's little in download section to prove it. - In general, I think that all Flex developers, despite all the internal framework mess and bad efficiency, love working with Flex. It's a brilliant technology and thanks to Flash Player / AIR, a dream come true. I've learned a lot how to be a good developer with Flex. It's natural that Flex developers are now disheartened and bitter. We've invested time to learn this and it's no longer paying off. But above everything else, I think that everyone feel deep inside, that it's not the business, but it's just sheer loss of such a great development tool to be constantly bashed, played down, laughed at and thrown away. We all know how cool it is. The world seem to never believe us. Isn't it this way? I'm sure most of you had a "so I've heard that HTML5 is great, convince me to Flex" situation for your contracts or in your companies. We fight, we struggle, and then all this energy is in vain now. This is extremely frustrating. - Internal bureaucracy is a fact. I don't want to go into a debate, whether it can be improv
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Hi there - has anyone responded on the spicefactory forum to this message (tried to do a search for the message on my phone but failed) On another note I just joined a big firm focused on environmental health and safety standards (ISO stuff) and we recently standardized to Apache Flex for development. So huzzah for Flex(/AIR) Regards, Edward J. Apostol Consultant / Instructor Web, RIAs and wireless Toronto, ON Canada On 2013-06-27, at 7:23 AM, Sebastian Mohr wrote: > Hi there, > > just wonder what you think about this forum post of the SpiceFactory forum > [1]: > > "With all due respect, I don't believe Apache did anything good with Flex. > They struggle with a lot of internal bureaucracy and I believe that without > clear leadership, this "meritocracy" thing just doesn't work. For the past > year, Apache Flex community debated whether they should move to Git and > right now when they did, they figured out that most people don't know how > to use it, etc. etc. In other words, to much "nerd" driven, not enough > "business realistic" driven." > > [1] http://www.spicefactory.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3803 > > > -- > Sebastian (PPMC) > Interaction Designer > > Looking for a Login Example with Apache Flex? Please check out this code: > http://code.google.com/p/masuland/wiki/LoginExample
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Yeah, I think that post is a bit presumptuous. I don't often interact with the lists, but I do follow them closely. There are problems that do arise, but the overall trend is that there are a lot of people working extremely hard, coding issues, technology issues, and 'political' issues are constantly being refined and tuned. Bugs and other issues that Adobe ignored for a long long time are being rectified. I'm not saying Adobe did a bad job, but the AF team and contributors are willing to dig in there and get their hands dirty. As with any open source project, there's a ramping up speed. Technologies are tried and rejected if they don't fit the bill - and finely tuned if they do. Hierarchical structures and group dynamics are tested and worked with to produce a finer machine. I, for one, am pleased and excited to watch the emails pour in with new bugs, new fixes, ideas, recommendations, taking votes, etc. I don't think the poster of that comment is truly watching the progress and dynamics of what is going on. Unfortunately, this is the fallacy that burdens our species as a whole in nearly any facet of our lives. My only hope is that the poster of that comment subscribes to the lists and really watches what's going on while subjectively considering the situation. On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Justin Mclean wrote: > Hi, > > Oh and if you want to have an idea of what progress is being made: > https://github.com/apache/flex-sdk/graphs/commit-activity > https://github.com/apache/flex-sdk/contributors > > And features that will in the next release (out of date and incomplete) > https://github.com/apache/flex-sdk/blob/develop/RELEASE_NOTES > > And that's just the SDK repo - there are other repos as well! > > This also gives good indication (compared to other OS projects) to the > activity in the project. > https://www.ohloh.net/p/ApacheFlex > > Thanks, > Justin > > > > -- *Thomas Wright* Software Engineer Extension: 1054 Office: [801] 464.4600 Corporate Division twri...@yesco.com
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Hear, hear Justin and more bounce to the ounce aYo www.ayobinitie.com mrbinitie.blogspot.com From: Justin Mclean Sent: Thursday, 27 June 2013 15:41 To: dev@flex.apache.org Hi, > "With all due respect, I don't believe Apache did anything good with Flex. > They struggle with a lot of internal bureaucracy and I believe that without > clear leadership, this "meritocracy" thing just doesn't work. I agree at times there tends to be a lot more talk than action and being new to Apache we sometimes go about things the wrong way. But there have been a large number of changes, bugs have been fixed, the SDK is faster, has more features and is still improving. We have better international support, the SDK works on a wider range of Flash Player versions and Linux support is shaping up well. It has been slow going and we can always do will a bit more help. There's still some low hanging fruit that can be fixed (see JIRA issues marked easytest or easyfix for example). If all of the existing committers tried to fixed a bug or contributed something every week (or month) there would be better progress. I personally think of it like doing a cryptic crossword, it's a challenge and you might not always finish or get it exactly right but you learn something along the way. :-) There are things that are certainly better than when Flex was at Adobe. - We respond to (and fix) user issues if we can. There's always room for improvement here but we have less resources than Adobe had and everything done by people in their free time. - There a focus on what what's practical and useful now rather than what's the current hype. - New directions and features are being explored (slowly), major changes have happened in the JS side and that shows great promise. - Anyone can contribute and make a difference. What we've done poorly. - Engaging existing contributors, business and users of the SDK to help out. They are now the owners of the SDK. - Communication about what been going on and where we would like to change. - Getting new releases out. > For the past year, Apache Flex community debated whether they should move to > Git IMO we moved to git for the wrong reasons (SVN was working fine and well supported at Apache and github mirrors were in place). Apache infrastructure took too long in making the change (which we didn't take into account), we didn't factor in all of the build issues, and the Git model is not really in sync with the way things are done at Apache. As a result some of the benefits of using Git are lost. I'm not sure that people realised that when the move was voted for. Other peoples opinion may differ form mine on that. > to much "nerd" driven, not enough "business realistic" driven." Businesses is more than welcome to contribute. I've only seen a few businesses sponsor (directly or indirectly) time or effort into this project. There are many businesses out there that use Flex and it would be in their interest if they contributed back in some way. If that's allowing employees to work of fixing bugs, promoting the SDK, helping out with documentation or in any other way it would be welcome. If someone was willing to pay me one day a week to work solely on Apache Flex I'd accept - think of it as a support contract :-) Thanks, Justin
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Hi, Oh and if you want to have an idea of what progress is being made: https://github.com/apache/flex-sdk/graphs/commit-activity https://github.com/apache/flex-sdk/contributors And features that will in the next release (out of date and incomplete) https://github.com/apache/flex-sdk/blob/develop/RELEASE_NOTES And that's just the SDK repo - there are other repos as well! This also gives good indication (compared to other OS projects) to the activity in the project. https://www.ohloh.net/p/ApacheFlex Thanks, Justin
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Hi, > "With all due respect, I don't believe Apache did anything good with Flex. > They struggle with a lot of internal bureaucracy and I believe that without > clear leadership, this "meritocracy" thing just doesn't work. I agree at times there tends to be a lot more talk than action and being new to Apache we sometimes go about things the wrong way. But there have been a large number of changes, bugs have been fixed, the SDK is faster, has more features and is still improving. We have better international support, the SDK works on a wider range of Flash Player versions and Linux support is shaping up well. It has been slow going and we can always do will a bit more help. There's still some low hanging fruit that can be fixed (see JIRA issues marked easytest or easyfix for example). If all of the existing committers tried to fixed a bug or contributed something every week (or month) there would be better progress. I personally think of it like doing a cryptic crossword, it's a challenge and you might not always finish or get it exactly right but you learn something along the way. :-) There are things that are certainly better than when Flex was at Adobe. - We respond to (and fix) user issues if we can. There's always room for improvement here but we have less resources than Adobe had and everything done by people in their free time. - There a focus on what what's practical and useful now rather than what's the current hype. - New directions and features are being explored (slowly), major changes have happened in the JS side and that shows great promise. - Anyone can contribute and make a difference. What we've done poorly. - Engaging existing contributors, business and users of the SDK to help out. They are now the owners of the SDK. - Communication about what been going on and where we would like to change. - Getting new releases out. > For the past year, Apache Flex community debated whether they should move to > Git IMO we moved to git for the wrong reasons (SVN was working fine and well supported at Apache and github mirrors were in place). Apache infrastructure took too long in making the change (which we didn't take into account), we didn't factor in all of the build issues, and the Git model is not really in sync with the way things are done at Apache. As a result some of the benefits of using Git are lost. I'm not sure that people realised that when the move was voted for. Other peoples opinion may differ form mine on that. > to much "nerd" driven, not enough "business realistic" driven." Businesses is more than welcome to contribute. I've only seen a few businesses sponsor (directly or indirectly) time or effort into this project. There are many businesses out there that use Flex and it would be in their interest if they contributed back in some way. If that's allowing employees to work of fixing bugs, promoting the SDK, helping out with documentation or in any other way it would be welcome. If someone was willing to pay me one day a week to work solely on Apache Flex I'd accept - think of it as a support contract :-) Thanks, Justin
RE: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
I'm completely with Mike here. There is a hefty amount of work being done there. I'm continually in awe of the work ethic and dedication to the project. As for business realistic driven that's sometimes bosh as it's for the most part driven by a response and thus not proactive aYo www.ayobinitie.com mrbinitie.blogspot.com On 27 Jun 2013 15:02, "Michael A. Labriola" wrote: > >"With all due respect, I don't believe Apache did anything good with Flex. > >They struggle with a lot of internal bureaucracy and I believe that > without clear leadership, this "meritocracy" thing just doesn't work. For > the past year, Apache Flex community debated whether they should move to > >Git and right now when they did, they figured out that most people don't > know how to use it, etc. etc. In other words, to much "nerd" driven, not > enough "business realistic" driven." > > It's an open source project, run by volunteers in their free time. Yes, > it's going to be different than when a large company was paying resources > to work on it full time and there was a marketing budget. Yes, there will > be more debate. Yes, the debate can sometimes be frustrating. > > However, in all honesty, there are people here and there is work > happening. That is more than can be said for many open source projects and > I, for one, think that it is pretty cool that despite what might be called > oppressive market conditions and long processes to get here, the lights are > on and things are happening. > > Mike > >
RE: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
>"With all due respect, I don't believe Apache did anything good with Flex. >They struggle with a lot of internal bureaucracy and I believe that without >clear leadership, this "meritocracy" thing just doesn't work. For the past >year, Apache Flex community debated whether they should move to >Git and right >now when they did, they figured out that most people don't know how to use it, >etc. etc. In other words, to much "nerd" driven, not enough "business >realistic" driven." It's an open source project, run by volunteers in their free time. Yes, it's going to be different than when a large company was paying resources to work on it full time and there was a marketing budget. Yes, there will be more debate. Yes, the debate can sometimes be frustrating. However, in all honesty, there are people here and there is work happening. That is more than can be said for many open source projects and I, for one, think that it is pretty cool that despite what might be called oppressive market conditions and long processes to get here, the lights are on and things are happening. Mike
Re: Are we "nerd" driven or "business realistic" driven?
Comments in-line... I sort of agree and don't agree at the same time. On 6/27/2013 7:23 AM, Sebastian Mohr wrote: Hi there, just wonder what you think about this forum post of the SpiceFactory forum [1]: "With all due respect, I don't believe Apache did anything good with Flex. I disagree. They struggle with a lot of internal bureaucracy I agree. Trying to get permission to print the Apache Flex Logo on a T-shirt was an intensely frustrating process; and after a few weeks I only had a "vague" consensus that it might be okay; but not formal permission. The issue was left unresolved. The Apache Trademark team beleives the only possible interpertation of "I Support Apache Flex" is that someone paid money to Apache; and Apache doesn't accept donations for specific projects. and I believe that without clear leadership, this "meritocracy" thing just doesn't work. I have mixed feelings about this. But, I believe the Apache Flex team has proven that things can get done. The installer, for example, is awesome. The new releases / bug fixes are also great. I consider it "iterative" progress as opposed to "revolutionary" progress; but I don't think the SDK needs to be re-written from scratch every couple of years. For the past year, Apache Flex community debated whether they should move to Git and right now when they did, they figured out that most people don't know how to use it, etc. etc. I don't believe the GIT/SVN debate lasted a year; but otherwise I agree the move was not perfect. -- Jeffry Houser Technical Entrepreneur http://www.jeffryhouser.com 203-379-0773
