Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
Hi, swhiser wrote: Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: Why then are Sun people connected with the project going around saying constantly that the priority is to increase the number of developers. Somebody does not understand the problem(s)...or there is a big disconnect. There are reasons why it's hard to attract volunteers to this project, coders or other. I'm very interest in the opinions of individual and corporate contributors including those from Novell, Red Hat, and other major companies. So why dont they work with us? Novell has a fork, Red Hat and Ubuntu build on the Novell fork. IBM is working thier own fork under the SISSL and not contributing back. The question must be asked, Do we have bad breath? But why are you calling every single build of OOo that doesn't get out of Hamburg a fork? True, there are some obvious forks: IBM's Workplace, some Chinese software... But Red Hat and Novell Are you serious? Let's talk about Novell for instance. They have a separate web site where you can see what they do and basically what they do is some separate QA and some customization. But they call themselves OpenOffice.org and their marketing message is basically that they work on OOo, an OOo by Novell. But they keep sending in our ranks skilled developpers, engineers, they don't deny nor ignore our processes, and they participate to our community. In one word, they give back. Same thing for Red Hat. And, oh, you should know that Debian has customized OOo. And Mandriva too. And Linspire. And Lycoris. And Ubuntu has finetuned it also a bit. And there's even more: 9 over ten localizations of OOo are not released by Hamburg ! Are they forks? No, it's not a fork, because all these builds and works take place 1° inside the OOo development process, albeit partially for some ,2° these developments are given back through source code and developpers. There's even more to it, but you couldn't know that as a former MP lead since a MP lead never knows how to position its project, does he? OOo is a source code project. It develops and distributes the world number one FLOSS office suite, but lets and encourage others customize it and distribute it, provided that they follow the license requirements and that they contribute back to the community. So there's a dual aspect to OOo positionning on the market: a standalone product and a whitebox software that can be integrated through other development and distribution process. But, well, a former OOo MP lead cannot know this, really. I'm personally (not speaking for Sun as a whole!!!) less interested in random opinions from people who will never write a line of code. Such people are no help! I'll surprize you: I'm part of the people who may never write a line of code, and I'm ready to say that people who will never write a line of code AND spend their time trolling inside and outside our community are no help. Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
Thank you Sam for this fine mess. That's what I call a disservice. Charles. swhiser wrote: http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/42367/index.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
Charles-H.Schulz wrote: Thank you Sam for this fine mess. That's what I call a disservice. Charles. swhiser wrote: http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/42367/index.html Charles- What about the benefit of an open discussion? There's never been an attempt to understand what people really think out in the open. -Sam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
Charles-H.Schulz wrote: Thank you Sam for this fine mess. That's what I call a disservice. Charles. Charles- You sound threatened. I don't understand that reaction. -Sam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
On 8/30/05, Charles-H.Schulz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Sam for this fine mess. That's what I call a disservice. Charles. swhiser wrote: http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/42367/index.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think the post is somewhat reasonable. It doesn't cast anything in a bad light and it gives us an idea of what people out their want. He also makes sure he's not acting as a representative of OpenOffice. -- Adam Moore Community Volunteer OOo blog: AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com http://AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
Hi, swhiser wrote: Charles- What about the benefit of an open discussion? There's never been an attempt to understand what people really think out in the open. -Sam I'm all for open discussions... here, or on any other OOo list. But not in the press. What kind of controversy do you want to stirr up exactly? Do you think this open discussion, which isn't one really, would serve OOo and its image? Especially when I, and others, told you that we're all for the GPL? It's a non-issue, but on the outside it is a big one. Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: I wonder how many comments will actually come from real OpenOffice.org contributors or at least people who have expressed serious believable interest in developing for OpenOffice.org. I'm personally less interested in philosophical comments from open source advocates who for example do not have to feed their kids with their OpenOffice.org development work, or at least do not take those developers into consideration. Anybody can ask for a GPL and a foundation, but it's not that easy to solve the related issues, e.g. sponsorship, affected jobs, etc. I'm again not saying that the GPL or a foundation is bad, but I'm not a fan of discussions by people who are not (or at least much less) personally affected (I mean the non-OOo-developers who might comment to the article). What you term non-OOo developers could mean any of us on the Marketing list. I'm curious what people think. It's a mistake to believe that I am advocating GPL. Please re-read the article. -Sam Best regards, Erwin swhiser wrote: http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/42367/index.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
swhiser wrote: Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: I wonder how many comments will actually come from real OpenOffice.org contributors or at least people who have expressed serious believable interest in developing for OpenOffice.org. Erwin- This comment is a bit scary. It's the point of getting input...from people who have been turned off by OOo's licensing setup...those who have not been participating. -Sam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
Hello, swhiser wrote: Charles-H.Schulz wrote: Thank you Sam for this fine mess. That's what I call a disservice. Charles. Charles- You sound threatened. No I don't. But you acted as if you wanted to make some noise that you couldn't manage to do here. I don't understand that reaction. Please read my second post on the issue. Once again, GPL is definitely something I would like to see, but it's the point of bringing the issue on the outside at this moment that is wrong and confusing. Sam, you know marketing, don't you? So tell me about how these two following messages do not overlap and confuse our audience: -OOo2 beta is released, test it! -Why isn't OOo under a GPL license? That's what, as a marketer, you do not wish to do. That's pure confusion, potentially raising a controversy and as an outcome potentially harming our image and blurring our message. So, thank you Sam for this fine mess. That's what I call a disservice. Charles. -Sam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
What you term non-OOo developers could mean any of us on the Marketing list. Some people might feel offended, but yes, I include people like you and me who do not write code and do not have to make their living from writing code. The whole GPL/foundation question is not just a philosophical issue that can be discussed by open source supporter/evangelists/advocates. I see this similar to discussions about speed limits on freeways. If I don't drive or use a car and if I'm not a government official responsible for traffic, why should I be the main influencer in a discussion about speed limits. Yes, everybody can have an opinion about the GPL/foundation question, and I actually I have one, too. However, I'm not a developer, I'm a manager of any developers and I do not a potential (major) sponsor of something like a foundation. Thus, why should my opinion be very important? Best regards, Erwin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
On 8/30/05, Erwin Tenhumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you term non-OOo developers could mean any of us on the Marketing list. Some people might feel offended, but yes, I include people like you and me who do not write code and do not have to make their living from writing code. The whole GPL/foundation question is not just a philosophical issue that can be discussed by open source supporter/evangelists/advocates. I see this similar to discussions about speed limits on freeways. If I don't drive or use a car and if I'm not a government official responsible for traffic, why should I be the main influencer in a discussion about speed limits. Yes, everybody can have an opinion about the GPL/foundation question, and I actually I have one, too. However, I'm not a developer, I'm a manager of any developers and I do not a potential (major) sponsor of something like a foundation. Thus, why should my opinion be very important? Best regards, Erwin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'll also say after talking to one of the major developers of OpenOffice he felt the same way too. This is a decision for the development team to make. -- Adam Moore Community Volunteer OOo blog: AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com http://AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: Erwin- This comment is a bit scary. It's the point of getting input...from people who have been turned off by OOo's licensing setup...those who have not been participating. -Sam I just don't believe in demanding statements coming from random people. It's like saying if creates a foundation, IBM, Novell, Intel, Google, etc. will all give millions of dollars to sponsor it. I might believe companies that already showed some level of commitment, I might even believe companies who are not committed yet, but can make a strong case, but for sure I would not believe anybody outside of those companies. Yes, I risk ignoring developers who have such strong opinions that they did not want to have anything to do with OpenOffice.org under its current structure. Thus, did not indicate any level of commitment. However, to me listening to everybody seems to be of higher risk to me. Best regards, Erwin Erwin- Has it occurred to you that the public discussion of this issue might reinforce Sun's position? -Sam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: snip Yes, I risk ignoring developers who have such strong opinions that they did not want to have anything to do with OpenOffice.org under its current structure. Thus, did not indicate any level of commitment. However, to me listening to everybody seems to be of higher risk to me. There is a contradiction here. You and Louis and others at Sun have always been saying, 'We need to get more developers...' I'm saying that it's possible they aren't coming for a reason, but you seem afraid to find out why. -Sam Best regards, Erwin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
Adam Moore wrote: snip I'll also say after talking to one of the major developers of OpenOffice he felt the same way too. This is a decision for the development team to make. Such a decision may be taken out of their hands if they are not curious as to why they cannot get free help from independent developers. Don't you guess, though, they already know? -Sam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
There is a contradiction here. You and Louis and others at Sun have always been saying, 'We need to get more developers...' I'm saying that it's possible they aren't coming for a reason, but you seem afraid to find out why. I'm not afraid, I just want to set the right expectations. Not all comments are equally important. Erwin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
On 8/30/05, swhiser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adam Moore wrote: snip I'll also say after talking to one of the major developers of OpenOffice he felt the same way too. This is a decision for the development team to make. Such a decision may be taken out of their hands if they are not curious as to why they cannot get free help from independent developers. Don't you guess, though, they already know? -Sam He does seem to already know, but he didn't seem to care what outsiders thought. As it is the people on the inside doing the code. -- Adam Moore Community Volunteer OOo blog: AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com http://AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
On Tue, 2005-08-30 at 20:26 +0200, Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: What you term non-OOo developers could mean any of us on the Marketing list. Some people might feel offended, but yes, I include people like you and me who do not write code and do not have to make their living from writing code. What about people that make a living from OOo in other ways and contribute code (or anything for that matter) back, perhaps by sponsoring a coder. It might not happen now except for Sun but it certainly could happen in the future. Coders can be bought in so anyone who can generate more income to fund coding than one coder is more valuable to the project than a coder. That is why Sun is so powerful. The whole GPL/foundation question is not just a philosophical issue that can be discussed by open source supporter/evangelists/advocates. But I think assuming that coders are the only people with an economic interest in working on OOo is equally a mistake. If Open Source is to flourish we need to get away from the only people that matter are coders thing. Ok, without them there is no product but without sustainable income generators to feed them there is no sustainable project either. The OOo community needs sustainable business models that pay for themselves and have the capacity to produce sufficient surplus to contribute back otherwise we will be forever dependent on Sun and a few donations here and there arguing the toss over this conference or that. And what happens if at some point Sun can't or won't fund the coders? A culture that is dependent is a culture that is vulnerable. Its nothing against Sun its just reality. There is masses of EU money that can be bid for. Open Source Academy is funded to about a million UKP from EU money. Leonardo Da Vinci funding targets vocational exchanges up to 100,000 Euro. I have an Italian friend bidding for money for INGOT development in Europe. If large corporates are not going to jump in and so far it seems they aren't, we need to develop our own businesses and income streams. I see this similar to discussions about speed limits on freeways. If I don't drive or use a car and if I'm not a government official responsible for traffic, why should I be the main influencer in a discussion about speed limits. Maybe not the main influence but you do have legitimate interest. You are probably a tax/insurance payer and you probably foot the bill for accidents if you live in the UK or you pay higher premiums for insurance or you also have an environmental interest that the higher speed gas guzzling affects. There is a lot of talk about community. Community is collective responsibility and interests that transcend governments. Governments provide some workable structure but in general govern by consent of the community as Margaret Thatcher found when there was massive civil disobendience against her poll tax. Yes, everybody can have an opinion about the GPL/foundation question, and I actually I have one, too. However, I'm not a developer, I'm a manager of any developers and I do not a potential (major) sponsor of something like a foundation. Thus, why should my opinion be very important? Because you are a member of the community. -- Ian Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED] ZMSL - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
Adam Moore wrote: I was not referring to Erwin. Yes there are quite a few Novell developers not doing l10n work. Take a look at http://ooo.ximian.com/planet for a list of a few. I said *independent* developers...tofu-eating communists who are not employed or are working for themselves. On 8/30/05, swhiser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adam Moore wrote: Sorry I must have missed the point. He would not like the survey you did. It's like explaining a (bad) joke... ...he [Erwin/Sun] didn't seem to care what outsiders thought. As it is the people on the inside doing the code. The reason I am concerned for the future of OOo is that Sun treats it like a proprietary project. The development method in fact bears little resemblance to an open source project. Can you name any independent developers who are not l10n who commit code but are not on the Sun team? Why then are Sun people connected with the project going around saying constantly that the priority is to increase the number of developers. Somebody does not understand the problem(s)...or there is a big disconnect. There are reasons why it's hard to attract volunteers to this project, coders or other. Or maybe I'm out of touch and Microsoft is winning at killing interest. -Sam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
I know of a couple of people who commit code for the mac port and they don't eat tofu. I'm not sure about the communist thing. They could be employed, but not by a company that funds their developing time. On 8/30/05, swhiser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adam Moore wrote: I was not referring to Erwin. Yes there are quite a few Novell developers not doing l10n work. Take a look at http://ooo.ximian.com/planet for a list of a few. I said *independent* developers...tofu-eating communists who are not employed or are working for themselves. On 8/30/05, swhiser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adam Moore wrote: Sorry I must have missed the point. He would not like the survey you did. It's like explaining a (bad) joke... ...he [Erwin/Sun] didn't seem to care what outsiders thought. As it is the people on the inside doing the code. The reason I am concerned for the future of OOo is that Sun treats it like a proprietary project. The development method in fact bears little resemblance to an open source project. Can you name any independent developers who are not l10n who commit code but are not on the Sun team? Why then are Sun people connected with the project going around saying constantly that the priority is to increase the number of developers. Somebody does not understand the problem(s)...or there is a big disconnect. There are reasons why it's hard to attract volunteers to this project, coders or other. Or maybe I'm out of touch and Microsoft is winning at killing interest. -Sam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Adam Moore Community Volunteer OOo blog: AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com http://AdamMooreOOo.blogspot.com
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
Adam Moore wrote: I know of a couple of people who commit code for the mac port and they don't eat tofu. I'm not sure about the communist thing. They could be employed, but not by a company that funds their developing time. lol On 8/30/05, swhiser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adam Moore wrote: I was not referring to Erwin. Yes there are quite a few Novell developers not doing l10n work. Take a look at http://ooo.ximian.com/planet for a list of a few. I said *independent* developers...tofu-eating communists who are not employed or are working for themselves. On 8/30/05, swhiser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adam Moore wrote: Sorry I must have missed the point. He would not like the survey you did. It's like explaining a (bad) joke... ...he [Erwin/Sun] didn't seem to care what outsiders thought. As it is the people on the inside doing the code. The reason I am concerned for the future of OOo is that Sun treats it like a proprietary project. The development method in fact bears little resemblance to an open source project. Can you name any independent developers who are not l10n who commit code but are not on the Sun team? Why then are Sun people connected with the project going around saying constantly that the priority is to increase the number of developers. Somebody does not understand the problem(s)...or there is a big disconnect. There are reasons why it's hard to attract volunteers to this project, coders or other. Or maybe I'm out of touch and Microsoft is winning at killing interest. -Sam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
Why then are Sun people connected with the project going around saying constantly that the priority is to increase the number of developers. Somebody does not understand the problem(s)...or there is a big disconnect. There are reasons why it's hard to attract volunteers to this project, coders or other. I'm very interest in the opinions of individual and corporate contributors including those from Novell, Red Hat, and other major companies. I'm personally (not speaking for Sun as a whole!!!) less interested in random opinions from people who will never write a line of code. Erwin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
I said *independent* developers...tofu-eating communists who are not employed or are working for themselves. If they developed code for OpenOffice.org outside of OpenOffice.org and thus showed serious interest in developing for the project, I do care. Otherwise I'm much less interested, because I do not want to throw something away for something which might not really exist. Erwin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
One more comment, many individual developers become corporate developers at some point! Erwin Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: Why then are Sun people connected with the project going around saying constantly that the priority is to increase the number of developers. Somebody does not understand the problem(s)...or there is a big disconnect. There are reasons why it's hard to attract volunteers to this project, coders or other. I'm very interest in the opinions of individual and corporate contributors including those from Novell, Red Hat, and other major companies. I'm personally (not speaking for Sun as a whole!!!) less interested in random opinions from people who will never write a line of code. Erwin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
So why dont they work with us? Novell has a fork, Red Hat and Ubuntu build on the Novell fork. IBM is working thier own fork under the SISSL and not contributing back. The question must be asked, Do we have bad breath? I think these companies can (and BTW do) speak for themselves. Most issues are already known, but in many cases the solution is not that simple, even if it might appear to be on the surface. The more parties participate, the more ideas, goals, objections, etc. come together. Erwin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Request developers' comments on OpenOffice under GPL
Erwin Tenhumberg wrote: So why dont they work with us? Novell has a fork, Red Hat and Ubuntu build on the Novell fork. IBM is working thier own fork under the SISSL and not contributing back. The question must be asked, Do we have bad breath? I think these companies can (and BTW do) speak for themselves. Most issues are already known, but in many cases the solution is not that simple, even if it might appear to be on the surface. The more parties participate, the more ideas, goals, objections, etc. come together. A perfect summary of my motivation to post the question on LXer today. -Sam Erwin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
