Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Hi Drew, * Drew Jensen schrieb: Juergen Schmidt wrote: > [...] the key message of the icons is to strengthen the ODF brand. > And that application independent! For ODF it is important that > people understand the openness of the format, that it is based on > a standard and that it can be used with different applications. > > From my point of view it makes really sense to have this unique > icons for ODF files. And hopefully most often OpenOffice.org is > the default app on the system to open these files. [FYI - I started this email a few days ago and some of the points have been made by others, but I wanted to comment so will just send it as is..] Could not agree more with that opinion, when the discussion is regarding mime file type icons. The value of branding the actual file types for ODF it seems to me is one of the most important steps to be performed at this point. OpenOffice.org, thanks to the work of many individuals and organizations, has achieved a strong name recognition. [...] Name recognition and market share are capital, and capital needs to be invested - an investment targeted to building an ODF brand like a winning proposition from even an OpenOffice.org centric perspective. I'm all with you on that point - branding ODF is good investment for OOo. (OK - I already wrote this several times and should not repeat myself too much...) The new file type icon set developed appears quite good to my eye; the lack, or singularity, of the color theme seems to me a good thing. Think Adobe here for their simple red themed PDF format. PDF is only one file type, the ODF file types differ much between each other. Recognition by their grey symbols might be not enough IMHO. Microsoft has already established a rather strong association between blue and doc file format - OK, we have a little different blue - works for me :>) After all we want folks to refer to text documents and mean Open Document Text Documents...right. Not only text documents: With the new icons we refer to spreadsheets, presentations, databases too. There is no assiciation with blue - and users (especially the MS Office users we want to convince to move) await green, orange or crimson/violet colors for these file types. This could be solved with different colors for the "ODF" area, but it would reduce the strength of the ODF branding. I'd keep one color scheme for ODF branding (preferably colors not already associated with a certain file type - and the ODF logo already uses such colors: yellow and violet), but add the file type information otherwise. With the MS Offfice color similarities we used up to now people keep present associations - so why not add them (less prominent) to the icons? Another way would be using the different ODF file formats in the same style as branding elements: ODF text document ODF spreadsheet document ODF presentation document ODF graphics document and so on. The brackets symbolize the ODF origin as XML based file format, together with the repetitive usage of "OD" and the colored background this might give a sufficient association with ODF as the basis for different document file formats. That said, and just to be sure, there is no talk here of changing the icons displayed by the OpenOffice.org executables - in all their current and glorious color. I believe that's correct? I don't understand the reason to reduce the visual relation between application and document icons. The application icons are much less visible than the document icons: People tend to open a file directly instead of opening the application first and then open a document inside this program. I'd add the ODF badge to the application icons too - this shows that all the OOo applications support ODF, it keeps consistency between application and document icon and improves branding on both ODF and OOo. To me then the issue that is of concern is the start center. I really think that users will have no problem making a distinction, in their minds, between what we display in the start center and what we display in the operating system supplied functionality for file types. ( Explorer, Finder, Browser, etc ) At the moment the start center displays the document icons, but it might be discussed if they don't behave like the app icons: They open the apps with an empty document. So why not show the app icons instead? Once we found a common design for the document icons, the start center will have to get a new design - perhaps a new functionality too ... That does not mean I feel *strongly* that the current application icons must not be changed, or the actual start center graphics - if someone in the arts group wants to take a run at adding our current color theme to the proposed mime type icons for use in the start center I for one would love to see it. I don't see a reason for a third set of icons besides the app and the doc icons. (You know my o
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Juergen Schmidt wrote: Lars Nooden wrote: Bernhard Dippold wrote: In my eyes these colors have a message we shouldn't give up without having thought about the positive and negative aspects of this change. Same with the product information in the icons. Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale shading). Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that distros and versions of distros can overlay their own colors? Acceptance of the icons would be easier if there were a simple way to tune them to fit in with established desktop themes. Is that really the point? I think no, the key message of the icons is to strengthen the ODF brand. And that application independent! For ODF it is important that people understand the openness of the format, that it is based on a standard and that it can be used with different applications. From my point of view it makes really sense to have this unique icons for ODF files. And hopefully most often OpenOffice.org is the default app on the system to open these files. [FYI - I started this email a few days ago and some of the points have been made by others, but I wanted to comment so will just send it as is..] Could not agree more with that opinion, when the discussion is regarding mime file type icons. The value of branding the actual file types for ODF it seems to me is one of the most important steps to be performed at this point. OpenOffice.org, thanks to the work of many individuals and organizations, has achieved a strong name recognition. OpenOffice.org with the apparent penetration obtained to date in the Microsoft desktop market and near certain majority of the Linux desktop, is really the only application to spearhead this effort. Name recognition and market share are capital, and capital needs to be invested - an investment targeted to building an ODF brand like a winning proposition from even an OpenOffice.org centric perspective. The new file type icon set developed appears quite good to my eye; the lack, or singularity, of the color theme seems to me a good thing. Think Adobe here for their simple red themed PDF format. Microsoft has already established a rather strong association between blue and doc file format - OK, we have a little different blue - works for me :>) After all we want folks to refer to text documents and mean Open Document Text Documents...right. That said, and just to be sure, there is no talk here of changing the icons displayed by the OpenOffice.org executables - in all their current and glorious color. I believe that's correct? To me then the issue that is of concern is the start center. I really think that users will have no problem making a distinction, in their minds, between what we display in the start center and what we display in the operating system supplied functionality for file types. ( Explorer, Finder, Browser, etc ) That does not mean I feel *strongly* that the current application icons must not be changed, or the actual start center graphics - if someone in the arts group wants to take a run at adding our current color theme to the proposed mime type icons for use in the start center I for one would love to see it. What I would hope to see along with such a change would be a shift in the marketing materials such that the ODF mime file-type icons are emphasized over a diminished perhaps, but maintained, use of the OpenOffice.org specific application icons - and - color themes. This is my definition of investing OpenOffice.org capital, this inclusion of ODF as a specific feature within all of the communities activities. It seems to me that such an action would make it more likely that Linux distributions would want to use these mime type icons in their default, non application specific, icon sets. With regards to other applications that also use the ODF file type and OS distro's changing the application icons - well they do that now, so that is a non issue in my mind - just assume they will do so in the future. Actually, looking at this question of separating the use of the odf mime type icons from the start center I can't help but think such would be best for the other cross platform applications based on OpenOffice.org code - Symphony, OOo4Kids jump to mind, then count in Novell OpenOffice.org, Star Office. Each project going after a slightly different segment of users and so seems fitting that they will want to change the application specific iconography to match. In the case of OOo4Kids, Novell OO.o and Star Office each use the start center, IIRC. IMO building such brand recognition for ODF will require not just our use of the icons but will require an active and orchestrated outreach to other groups and organizations from individuals within the OpenOffice.org community. [again I saw some mail about such actions ] As for timing - outreach first seems to be what I am reading in a number of emails, well - IMO - leadin
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Juergen Schmidt wrote: Thorsten Behrens wrote: Martin Hollmichel wrote: again from my point of view there is no need, simply use the icons as they are. As far as i know the icons were already suggested to OASIS to become the default icon. Maybe it will change who knows but then we should use the new ones, important is to use the default ODF icons without any changes. I'm not sure if I really understand your point why it is important to have icons without any change, I can imagine that it will be difficult enough to get an agreement of all teams (KDE, Gnome and OpenOffice.org team) on an unified style at all, I would be fine if there would are slight differences for the icons if the artistists say they need to do some adoption to make them smoothly integrated into their specific icon themes. Indeed. Jürgen, as Michael already pointed out: we'll need to lobby for that icon idea *first*. And believe me, not even providing an easy way to exchange colors is gonna fly in Linux land - just compare the totally different icon themes in e.g. Gnome and KDE (in the shapes, and metaphors used - and not even mentioning Moblin, Maemo etc.). Designers *will* veto anything that'll make their theme visually inconsistent, ask Stella. i understand it and it is probably not easy to achieve. But i pointed out my personal opinion and that is to use the default icons as they are. Ok, maybe we need some more icons to address different design principals in general (e.g. Gnome, KDE). In case of OOo we would need all icons for the different themes as well, correct? The general idea of unique icons for ODF is a good one and we should better do promotion for it. Yes it would have been better to do this first and involve more people and groups. I can't change it and i wasn't involved too but i see the message and the idea behind it and that is worth to support. Are the icons really so bad? No, I think those icons are excellent, but I'm not the person who should judge about this since my preferred user interface is still the command line ;-). We need contact to the artist teams of KDE and Gnome and get their feedback, Or is it more a breached ego and of course the mistake that is was done behind the doors? I think the lesson is learned! As long as I can be sure that the right people are sitting behind the door, I'm fine with it, do we know whom to contact in the KDE and Gnome artist teams ? Juergen Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Thorsten Behrens wrote: Martin Hollmichel wrote: again from my point of view there is no need, simply use the icons as they are. As far as i know the icons were already suggested to OASIS to become the default icon. Maybe it will change who knows but then we should use the new ones, important is to use the default ODF icons without any changes. I'm not sure if I really understand your point why it is important to have icons without any change, I can imagine that it will be difficult enough to get an agreement of all teams (KDE, Gnome and OpenOffice.org team) on an unified style at all, I would be fine if there would are slight differences for the icons if the artistists say they need to do some adoption to make them smoothly integrated into their specific icon themes. Indeed. Jürgen, as Michael already pointed out: we'll need to lobby for that icon idea *first*. And believe me, not even providing an easy way to exchange colors is gonna fly in Linux land - just compare the totally different icon themes in e.g. Gnome and KDE (in the shapes, and metaphors used - and not even mentioning Moblin, Maemo etc.). Designers *will* veto anything that'll make their theme visually inconsistent, ask Stella. i understand it and it is probably not easy to achieve. But i pointed out my personal opinion and that is to use the default icons as they are. Ok, maybe we need some more icons to address different design principals in general (e.g. Gnome, KDE). In case of OOo we would need all icons for the different themes as well, correct? The general idea of unique icons for ODF is a good one and we should better do promotion for it. Yes it would have been better to do this first and involve more people and groups. I can't change it and i wasn't involved too but i see the message and the idea behind it and that is worth to support. Are the icons really so bad? Or is it more a breached ego and of course the mistake that is was done behind the doors? I think the lesson is learned! Juergen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Martin Hollmichel wrote: > >again from my point of view there is no need, simply use the icons > >as they are. As far as i know the icons were already suggested to > >OASIS to become the default icon. Maybe it will change who knows > >but then we should use the new ones, important is to use the > >default ODF icons without any changes. > > I'm not sure if I really understand your point why it is important > to have icons without any change, I can imagine that it will be > difficult enough to get an agreement of all teams (KDE, Gnome and > OpenOffice.org team) on an unified style at all, I would be fine if > there would are slight differences for the icons if the artistists > say they need to do some adoption to make them smoothly integrated > into their specific icon themes. > Indeed. Jürgen, as Michael already pointed out: we'll need to lobby for that icon idea *first*. And believe me, not even providing an easy way to exchange colors is gonna fly in Linux land - just compare the totally different icon themes in e.g. Gnome and KDE (in the shapes, and metaphors used - and not even mentioning Moblin, Maemo etc.). Designers *will* veto anything that'll make their theme visually inconsistent, ask Stella. Cheers, -- Thorsten pgpkxefiujLKU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Hi, To clarify what I wrote, ODF is used by many apps. However, to address your point, Juergen, we can focus on OOo. OOo is provided by many distros. Each of those distros has at least one icon theme. Those themes have basic colors. There are usually two main colors to a theme, sometimes just one. It would encourage adoption of the icons if it were easy for the theme maintainers to use the icons but with their own colors. again from my point of view there is no need, simply use the icons as they are. As far as i know the icons were already suggested to OASIS to become the default icon. Maybe it will change who knows but then we should use the new ones, important is to use the default ODF icons without any changes. I'm not sure if I really understand your point why it is important to have icons without any change, I can imagine that it will be difficult enough to get an agreement of all teams (KDE, Gnome and OpenOffice.org team) on an unified style at all, I would be fine if there would are slight differences for the icons if the artistists say they need to do some adoption to make them smoothly integrated into their specific icon themes. Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Lars Nooden wrote: Juergen Schmidt wrote: Lars Nooden wrote: Bernhard Dippold wrote: In my eyes these colors have a message we shouldn't give up without having thought about the positive and negative aspects of this change. Same with the product information in the icons. Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale shading). Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that distros and versions of distros can overlay their own colors? Acceptance of the icons would be easier if there were a simple way to tune them to fit in with established desktop themes. ... would use their own icons. A mask is a term from photography carried over to digital graphics. thanks for the explanation but i think i have understand the term before ;-) To clarify what I wrote, ODF is used by many apps. However, to address your point, Juergen, we can focus on OOo. OOo is provided by many distros. Each of those distros has at least one icon theme. Those themes have basic colors. There are usually two main colors to a theme, sometimes just one. It would encourage adoption of the icons if it were easy for the theme maintainers to use the icons but with their own colors. again from my point of view there is no need, simply use the icons as they are. As far as i know the icons were already suggested to OASIS to become the default icon. Maybe it will change who knows but then we should use the new ones, important is to use the default ODF icons without any changes. It would also help if a logo or pictogram where used to identify ODF. good idea but should be probably addressed somewhere else Juergen /Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Juergen Schmidt wrote: > Lars Nooden wrote: >> Bernhard Dippold wrote: >> >>> In my eyes these colors have a message we shouldn't give up without >>> having thought about the positive and negative aspects of this change. >>> Same with the product information in the icons. >> >> Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale shading). >> Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that distros and versions >> of distros can overlay their own colors? Acceptance of the icons would >> be easier if there were a simple way to tune them to fit in with >> established desktop themes. > > ... would use their own icons. A mask is a term from photography carried over to digital graphics. To clarify what I wrote, ODF is used by many apps. However, to address your point, Juergen, we can focus on OOo. OOo is provided by many distros. Each of those distros has at least one icon theme. Those themes have basic colors. There are usually two main colors to a theme, sometimes just one. It would encourage adoption of the icons if it were easy for the theme maintainers to use the icons but with their own colors. It would also help if a logo or pictogram where used to identify ODF. /Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Le Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:01:28 +0100, Juergen Schmidt a écrit : > > Lars Nooden wrote: > > Bernhard Dippold wrote: > > > >> In my eyes these colors have a message we shouldn't give up without > >> having thought about the positive and negative aspects of this > >> change. Same with the product information in the icons. > > > > Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale > > shading). Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that > > distros and versions of distros can overlay their own colors? > > Acceptance of the icons would be easier if there were a simple way > > to tune them to fit in with established desktop themes. > > Is that really the point? I think no, the key message of the icons is > to strengthen the ODF brand. And that application independent! For > ODF it is important that people understand the openness of the > format, that it is based on a standard and that it can be used with > different applications. > > From my point of view it makes really sense to have this unique > icons for ODF files. And hopefully most often OpenOffice.org is the > default app on the system to open these files. > > I am not sure if it would be really helpful if all distros and all > ODF handling applications would use their own icons. We can probably > do a proper marketing for OOo with keeping the ODF icons in their > original design. The same would be true for the OOo brand. We should > focus on the message that OOo is the best application to work with > ODF. > > Just my 2 cents > > Juergen > +1 Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Michael Meeks wrote: On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 10:01 +0100, Juergen Schmidt wrote: Lars Nooden wrote: Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale shading). Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that distros and versions of distros can overlay their own colors? .. I am not sure if it would be really helpful if all distros and all ODF handling applications would use their own icons. We can probably do a proper marketing for OOo with keeping the ODF icons in their original design. Has anyone considered asking those responsible for artwork in Linux distributions about this scheme ? i don't know but i think that is not the questions here. Juergen Might be a good idea to do this as step #1 instead of step #50 ;-) HTH, Michael. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 10:01 +0100, Juergen Schmidt wrote: > Lars Nooden wrote: > > Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale shading). > > Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that distros and versions > > of distros can overlay their own colors? .. > I am not sure if it would be really helpful if all distros and all ODF > handling applications would use their own icons. We can probably do a > proper marketing for OOo with keeping the ODF icons in their original > design. Has anyone considered asking those responsible for artwork in Linux distributions about this scheme ? Might be a good idea to do this as step #1 instead of step #50 ;-) HTH, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Lars Nooden wrote: Bernhard Dippold wrote: In my eyes these colors have a message we shouldn't give up without having thought about the positive and negative aspects of this change. Same with the product information in the icons. Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale shading). Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that distros and versions of distros can overlay their own colors? Acceptance of the icons would be easier if there were a simple way to tune them to fit in with established desktop themes. Is that really the point? I think no, the key message of the icons is to strengthen the ODF brand. And that application independent! For ODF it is important that people understand the openness of the format, that it is based on a standard and that it can be used with different applications. From my point of view it makes really sense to have this unique icons for ODF files. And hopefully most often OpenOffice.org is the default app on the system to open these files. I am not sure if it would be really helpful if all distros and all ODF handling applications would use their own icons. We can probably do a proper marketing for OOo with keeping the ODF icons in their original design. The same would be true for the OOo brand. We should focus on the message that OOo is the best application to work with ODF. Just my 2 cents Juergen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Bernhard Dippold wrote: > In my eyes these colors have a message we shouldn't give up without > having thought about the positive and negative aspects of this change. > Same with the product information in the icons. Many icon themes use one or two colors (not counting greyscale shading). Is there a convenient way to set up a mask so that distros and versions of distros can overlay their own colors? Acceptance of the icons would be easier if there were a simple way to tune them to fit in with established desktop themes. /Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Hi Jens, all, Jens Habermann schrieb: Hi! If the colors are not used anymore, we should think about recreating all marketing stuff using these colors ( Splash and PrOOoBox CD comes to my mind ). I am glad if I can be of any help. I'd rather see the colors still used than creating more or less gray artwork ... In my eyes these colors have a message we shouldn't give up without having thought about the positive and negative aspects of this change. Same with the product information in the icons. Therefore a few OOo project members (including myself) try to convince the i-team working on these icons to keep at least a small colored area and perhaps a branding element from OOo. Any help would be really appreciated! Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Hi! If the colors are not used anymore, we should think about recreating all marketing stuff using these colors ( Splash and PrOOoBox CD comes to my mind ). I am glad if I can be of any help. Regards Jens Am 21.11.2009 um 17:28 schrieb Bernhard Dippold: > Hi all, > > as you probably know, the OOo document icons are going to be replaced by > icons representing the document type by greyscale graphics and a blue banner > with "ODF" as reference to their affiliation to the ODF family [0]. > > This has been done in order to improve branding on ODF. > > As this topic affects central marketing points (OOo branding, color scheme, > recognition of OOo as application on the desktop ...) I'd like to see more > marketing expertise in the team working on the adoption of these icons for > OOo (in SO9.2 they will be used nevertheless). > > Lutz Hoeger did ask for contributors on the ux list several times (last mail: > [1]), he provided a spec [2] and a homepage [3] on the wiki. > > If anybody is interested in this area, please drop a comment... > > Best regards > > Bernhard > > [0]: http://odftoolkit.org/ODF-Icons > [1]: http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=discuss&msgNo=4409 > [2]: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Unified_ODF_Icons > [3]: > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Unified_ODF_Icons_-_Project_Home_Page > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
[marketing] ODF desktop icons for OOo (without OOo branding ATM) - volunteers?
Hi all, as you probably know, the OOo document icons are going to be replaced by icons representing the document type by greyscale graphics and a blue banner with "ODF" as reference to their affiliation to the ODF family [0]. This has been done in order to improve branding on ODF. As this topic affects central marketing points (OOo branding, color scheme, recognition of OOo as application on the desktop ...) I'd like to see more marketing expertise in the team working on the adoption of these icons for OOo (in SO9.2 they will be used nevertheless). Lutz Hoeger did ask for contributors on the ux list several times (last mail: [1]), he provided a spec [2] and a homepage [3] on the wiki. If anybody is interested in this area, please drop a comment... Best regards Bernhard [0]: http://odftoolkit.org/ODF-Icons [1]: http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=discuss&msgNo=4409 [2]: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Unified_ODF_Icons [3]: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Unified_ODF_Icons_-_Project_Home_Page - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
