Re: Lets talk about JDK 8 (new year edition)

[Michael Bien]

On 14.02.23 05:11, Ernie Rael wrote:

On 23/02/05 11:31 AM, Michael Bien wrote:


NB 16/17 ships nb-javac which is based on JDK 19. Which means the 
minimum bytecode level is 7 already. Once nb-javac updates to 20 that 
number would be 8. (JDK 14 dropped support for 6, 20 dropped support 
for 7, 


The link Neil gave

https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/java-se-support-roadmap.html

may provide some insight into when JDK drops support (or it could be 
coincidence) for a bytecode level.


right. That is the reason I said I believed it to be highly unlikely 
that javac would drop support for 8 before the LTS for 8 ends - so we 
luckily don't have to worry about this aspect when updating nb-javac to 
the current version which NB has to do periodically to support current 
Java in the editor.


(which means nobody has to fear NB would have to drop support for Java 8 
in-the-editor any time soon)





That page indicates Extended Support for JDK-7 ended in 2022 and the 
first release of 2023, JDK-20, dropped support for JDK-7.


Once thing curious is that Extended Support for JDK-8 ends in 2030, 
which is/after/  Extended Support ends for both JDK-11 and JDK-17.


yes this is intended. I don't think anyone will try the JDK 8 experiment 
again. Java releases are more frequent, smaller and overlapping LTS 
releases happen more often which makes migration much easier within a 
project's lifetime.


JDK maintainers looked at python 3 and then looked back at JDK 8 and 
probably thought: we nearly got hit by the same issue, we are just super 
lucky that everyone valued compatibility so high.


There were some good blog posts about this from back when the new 
release model got introduced, but I somehow can't find them right now - 
search engines are either getting worse or I just get worse at using them.


It is also worth watching one of Mark Reinhold's older presentations 
about the 11+ release model for more context (most will probably already 
have seen it since he went on conference-world-tour with that :)).


-mbien




-ernie



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Re: switch to: Require approval for all outside collaborators

[Michael Bien]

just to update everyone on this who are not subscribed to the infra 
mailing list:


infra now made it the default for all apache projects, not only for our 
netbeans repo.


(there is still the option to switch it back via a ticket for individual 
projects)


pretty good result I would say! :)

best regards,
michael


On 29.01.23 08:36, Antonio wrote:

+1

I think ASF Infra will be happy to reduce the consumption of resources.

AFAIK Github (Microsoft) allocates a finite number of running hours 
for Github Actions to the ASF. The wiser we spend these, the better.


Cheers,
Antonio

On 28/1/23 22:19, Michael Bien wrote:

Hi devs,

gh has a setting which controls when workflows need approval before 
they run, the default seems to be:


"require approval for first-time contributors" or at least this is 
the setting the netbeans project is running on.


I would like to contact apache infra and ask if we could switch this to:

"Require approval for all outside collaborators"



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Re: Lets talk about JDK 8 (new year edition)

[Ernie Rael]

On 23/02/05 11:31 AM, Michael Bien wrote:


NB 16/17 ships nb-javac which is based on JDK 19. Which means the 
minimum bytecode level is 7 already. Once nb-javac updates to 20 that 
number would be 8. (JDK 14 dropped support for 6, 20 dropped support 
for 7, 


The link Neil gave

https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/java-se-support-roadmap.html

may provide some insight into when JDK drops support (or it could be 
coincidence) for a bytecode level.

That page indicates Extended Support for JDK-7 ended in 2022 and the first 
release of 2023, JDK-20, dropped support for JDK-7.

Once thing curious is that Extended Support for JDK-8 ends in 2030, which 
is/after/  Extended Support ends for both JDK-11 and JDK-17.

-ernie

it is highly unlikely that the compiler will drop support for LTS 
releases like 8)

Re: Lets talk about JDK 8 (new year edition)

[James Gosling]

So….  In my opinion, JDK8 must die.  Anyone using Android is in their own 
special hell, so I tend to not worry about them much (mostly spoken as one who 
has emerged from being connected with a project that attempted to work with 
Android, but OMG…).  If it were me, I’d skip forward to the latest LTS release, 
jdk17.  I’m living there in my current project, and it’s lovely.  Especially 
the GC.

Stop the unholy contortions to coexist.  Kill it.  Nail its coffin closed.  Do 
not look back.

> On Feb 13, 2023, at 5:28 PM, Laszlo Kishalmi  
> wrote:
> 
> What is happening with people in 2023?
> 
> Attempted bribery (another topic), threatening veto-s and supporters...
> 
> With all my respect, Jarda, please don't act like this!
> 
> We are talking and trying to find a solution to a problem:
> 
> Java 8 is becoming a dead weight on this project.
> 
> That's a fact, throwing a tantrum over it is not an adult way to handle the 
> situation.
> 
> Could you elaborate please, how would that affect your world, if for example. 
> NetBeans 20 modules would be compiled with release 11 target?
> 
> Using lookup and other core modules on Android? Since you are on JDK 8, what 
> would happen if you would stick with your libraries on NetBeans 19? That's 
> certainly possible. Any other use case?
> 
> Previously you've offered on ideas to separate the language and the target 
> JDK, so the target JDK can be level 8. There were no real use cases other 
> than we can run on Java 8. By now it seems like an obsession.
> 
> So reason, do not threat! Offer alternatives! The one, so far, it seems was 
> not good enough.
> 
> Help me understand, that those projects which are stuck on Java 8 for 
> whatever reason, why can't stuck on a specific NetBeans version as well?
> 
> Help me understand, what's wrong with maintaining a branch for NetBeans which 
> kept on Java 8 and backport necessary stuff from master every now and then. 
> That could be released, auto updated in need?
> 
> Also, what would be of the scope of this "Java 8 Forever!" movement? The 
> platform (with harness, core)  cluster? The ide cluster? All we know, is that 
> the enterprise cluster is a lost cause.
> 
> 
> I feel, I've lost one of my heroes today...
> 
> On 2/13/23 11:25, Jaroslav Tulach wrote:
>> Thank you for your reply Neil.
>> 
> I hope everyone recovered from the last JDK 8 thread and is ready for
> the first JDK 8 thread of 2023 :)
 Nobody recovers from these threads with you guys without wounds.
 
 -1 (I mean veto) on dropping JDK 8 support.
>>> If this were a lazy consensus thread, and we're not there yet, I'd
>>> expect a -1
>> As you probably know, I am not participating in day-to-day development of
>> NetBeans. It may happen I miss the vote thread - technically it might be
>> presented as my mistake, but in reality it would be an obstruction, because
>> everyone of you shall know:
>> 
>> I am voting against dropping support for JDK 8.
>> 
>> At any vote you ever call - even if I miss it. Please be so nice and make 
>> sure
>> I know that a vote is about to happen. Otherwise I will challenge that vote 
>> at
>> Apache authorities.
>> 
>>> to cover a lot more about an alternative way forward,
>>> addressing the resource issues, testing capacity constraints, peoples'
>>> time, priorities in supporting JDK 21+, release headaches, etc.
>> That's what I have been providing to you for the last three years (at least).
>> You were never listening to me. Whenever I tried to move NetBeans IDE 
>> forward,
>> while keeping the wide usability of NetBeans Platform, you said no.
>> 
>> Well, it is my turn now. I am saying no to "blind" dropping of JDK 8 support.
>> 
>>> I hope we can find a consensus way forward on all that, but if not we
>>> end up with a majority vote on the issue.
>> I certainly hope we find a consensus. That was always the goal behind all my
>> proposals in the last few years.
>> 
>> Threatening with a "non-veto" vote on a code issue is a bit nasty, but I can
>> live with it. Just keep me informed, so I can mobilize supporters.
>> 
>>> And soon we'll end up with 8, 11, 17, 21 and 22-ea.  That does not
>>> feel sustainable.
>> Why not? It is a machine doing the testing and it runs "for free". Anyway if
>> you want to simplify the matrix - then drop 11 or 17 or 21 - they are all the
>> same anyway. The the important thing is the bottom and then whether it shall
>> be JDK8 or not!
>> 
>> Let the negotiations begin!
>> -jt
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> 
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>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: Lets talk about JDK 8 (new year edition)

[Laszlo Kishalmi]

What is happening with people in 2023?

Attempted bribery (another topic), threatening veto-s and supporters...

With all my respect, Jarda, please don't act like this!

We are talking and trying to find a solution to a problem:

Java 8 is becoming a dead weight on this project.

That's a fact, throwing a tantrum over it is not an adult way to handle 
the situation.


Could you elaborate please, how would that affect your world, if for 
example. NetBeans 20 modules would be compiled with release 11 target?


Using lookup and other core modules on Android? Since you are on JDK 8, 
what would happen if you would stick with your libraries on NetBeans 19? 
That's certainly possible. Any other use case?


Previously you've offered on ideas to separate the language and the 
target JDK, so the target JDK can be level 8. There were no real use 
cases other than we can run on Java 8. By now it seems like an obsession.


So reason, do not threat! Offer alternatives! The one, so far, it seems 
was not good enough.


Help me understand, that those projects which are stuck on Java 8 for 
whatever reason, why can't stuck on a specific NetBeans version as well?


Help me understand, what's wrong with maintaining a branch for NetBeans 
which kept on Java 8 and backport necessary stuff from master every now 
and then. That could be released, auto updated in need?


Also, what would be of the scope of this "Java 8 Forever!" movement? The 
platform (with harness, core)  cluster? The ide cluster? All we know, is 
that the enterprise cluster is a lost cause.



I feel, I've lost one of my heroes today...

On 2/13/23 11:25, Jaroslav Tulach wrote:

Thank you for your reply Neil.


I hope everyone recovered from the last JDK 8 thread and is ready for
the first JDK 8 thread of 2023 :)

Nobody recovers from these threads with you guys without wounds.

-1 (I mean veto) on dropping JDK 8 support.

If this were a lazy consensus thread, and we're not there yet, I'd
expect a -1

As you probably know, I am not participating in day-to-day development of
NetBeans. It may happen I miss the vote thread - technically it might be
presented as my mistake, but in reality it would be an obstruction, because
everyone of you shall know:

I am voting against dropping support for JDK 8.

At any vote you ever call - even if I miss it. Please be so nice and make sure
I know that a vote is about to happen. Otherwise I will challenge that vote at
Apache authorities.


to cover a lot more about an alternative way forward,
addressing the resource issues, testing capacity constraints, peoples'
time, priorities in supporting JDK 21+, release headaches, etc.

That's what I have been providing to you for the last three years (at least).
You were never listening to me. Whenever I tried to move NetBeans IDE forward,
while keeping the wide usability of NetBeans Platform, you said no.

Well, it is my turn now. I am saying no to "blind" dropping of JDK 8 support.


I hope we can find a consensus way forward on all that, but if not we
end up with a majority vote on the issue.

I certainly hope we find a consensus. That was always the goal behind all my
proposals in the last few years.

Threatening with a "non-veto" vote on a code issue is a bit nasty, but I can
live with it. Just keep me informed, so I can mobilize supporters.


And soon we'll end up with 8, 11, 17, 21 and 22-ea.  That does not
feel sustainable.

Why not? It is a machine doing the testing and it runs "for free". Anyway if
you want to simplify the matrix - then drop 11 or 17 or 21 - they are all the
same anyway. The the important thing is the bottom and then whether it shall
be JDK8 or not!

Let the negotiations begin!
-jt




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Re: Issues with Gradle 8.0-rc-5 on NB 17rc3

[Scott Palmer]

This does seem to be a real issue, so I've filed
https://github.com/apache/netbeans/issues/5485


On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 12:04 PM László Kishalmi 
wrote:

> As far as I've checked the git diff between 8.0-rc-1 and 8.0-rc-5 there is
> no change in the tooling parts.
>
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 7:06 AM Scott Palmer  wrote:
>
> >
> > > On Feb 13, 2023, at 9:16 AM, Neil C Smith 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 22:44, Scott Palmer 
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Trying to run multiple gradle projects from the IDE and second one
> > failed.
> > >>
> > >> A org.gradle.tooling.GradleConnectionException has occurred.
> > >>
> > >> If you are running the latest 
> > version
> > >> of NetBeans you can report this
> > >> , including a copy of
> your
> > >> messages.log file as an attachment.
> > >
> > > Following that instruction would be useful! :-)
> >
> >  That would be my next step.. but I was going to do more to investigate
> > first.
> >
> > >
> > > Anything here that might cause pause for thought in progressing to
> > > release of 17?
> >
> > Sorry, I already replied to my original message, but the reply was
> blocked
> > by mailing list filters. Strange.
> >
> > The issue seems to have been related to a threading issue in my code. It
> > may have crashed the JVM (which also shouldn’t have happened, but that
> bug
> > is for someone else).  I’m going to confirm that with a smaller test case
> > and I’ll file an issue if it still seems relevant.
> >
> > At this time I don’t think it is something that should block NB 17.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > Neil
> >
>

Re: Lets talk about JDK 8 (new year edition)

[Neil C Smith]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 at 19:26, Jaroslav Tulach  wrote:
> As you probably know, I am not participating in day-to-day development of
> NetBeans.

And for those of use who are more involved day-to-day, it's causing
issues, and creating work (including the issue that kicked off this
thread).  That one I argued we should fix and keep the validation
tests on JDK 8, and put time into fixing.  I'm personally not prepared
to invest any more of my time into this in future though.

> At any vote you ever call - even if I miss it. Please be so nice and make sure
> I know that a vote is about to happen. Otherwise I will challenge that vote at
> Apache authorities.

Why are you directing this at me personally?  Any PMC member could
call a vote on this.  I'd quite like to get a consensus way forward,
and the framework aspect of NetBeans, and the needs of those users, is
really key for me as I've argued already in this thread.

> That's what I have been providing to you for the last three years (at least).
> You were never listening to me. Whenever I tried to move NetBeans IDE forward,
> while keeping the wide usability of NetBeans Platform, you said no.

Again, is this addressed at me personally?  I'm not entirely sure what
you mean, but I've certainly listened to your proposals.  I don't
believe they could have addressed many of the points that have been
raised though.

> Threatening with a "non-veto" vote on a code issue is a bit nasty, but I can
> live with it.

No-one is threatening anything, so please stop assuming bad faith.  I
was pointing out the logical conclusion of where this ends up.

> Just keep me informed, so I can mobilize supporters.

As Matthias pointed out in his thread, what's needed is supporters who
are also willing to pick up the work required.

> > And soon we'll end up with 8, 11, 17, 21 and 22-ea.  That does not
> > feel sustainable.
>
> Why not? It is a machine doing the testing and it runs "for free".

It's certainly not free.  ASF has testing infrastructure sponsored by
GitHub, but it's not unlimited, and we're a fairly heavy user as it
is.  The time taken for tests to run also has knock-on implications.

Best wishes,

Neil

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Re: Rust, anyone?

[John Kostaras]

I know, I wrote that sentence! :)

I mention it here for awareness and maybe reuse some of the code... :)

On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 7:50 PM László Kishalmi 
wrote:

> It says: It is recommended to rewrite/migrate the plugin to ANTLR4 and LSP.
>
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 11:08 PM John Kostaras 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello there. There has already been something about Rust
> > 
> > (written
> > in JavaCC).
> >
> > Ioannis.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 10:18 AM Antonio 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks Michael!
> > >
> > > D'oh! My intents to add Rust to the NetBeans core (very much as in the
> > > Linux kernel case) have been detected! :-D
> > >
> > > Latest commits solve these issues, though (and add new bugs).
> > >
> > > Next challenge: Cargo workspaces [1].
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Antonio
> > >
> > > [1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch14-03-cargo-workspaces.html
> > >
> > > On 12/2/23 9:03, Michael Bien wrote:
> > > > for others who want to give it a try: I had to fix two things to make
> > > > the build pass:
> > > >   - removed references of RustPackage in org.openide.nodes.Node
> > > > (probably a happy coding accident)
> > > >   - had to create this folder:
> netbeans/rust/rust.project/test/unit/src
> > >
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Rust, anyone?

[Antonio]

Hi,

Well, the Antlr4 lexer/parser works pretty well, but from time to time 
it throws an AssertionError [1] and freezes NetBeans, so it needs more 
work. Detecting test cases (by opening random Rust projects) and 
detecting where things break is useful.


But there're lots of things to do: improve syntax coloring (macros, for 
instance, could be in another color, and numbers), add code folds for 
structs, etc.


Cheers,
Antonio

[1]
https://github.com/apache/netbeans/blob/c084119009d2e0f736f225d706bc1827af283501/ide/lexer/src/org/netbeans/spi/lexer/LexerInput.java#L257

On 13/2/23 19:33, Jakub Herkel wrote:

Antonio, is there any list of things that you want (need) to
implement? Maybe someone (me also) can take some of them.

Jakub


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Re: Lets talk about JDK 8 (new year edition)

[Matthias Bläsing]

Hi,

Am Montag, dem 13.02.2023 um 20:25 +0100 schrieb Jaroslav Tulach:
> I am voting against dropping support for JDK 8.

I don't understand you: JDK 8 is a dead end. There will be no new
features. So why do you expect new features from your libraries? Just
use lookup/collections/whatever from ${last nb version compatible with
$ancient toolchain} and be done with it.

You would also to expect people to keep writing Windows 95 compatible
applications just because you refuse to update.

The question is: How long do you expect us to stay in the past?

> At any vote you ever call - even if I miss it. Please be so nice and make 
> sure 
> I know that a vote is about to happen. Otherwise I will challenge that vote 
> at 
> Apache authorities.

What do you expect them to do? A vote is called, there is a voting
period and later it is counted. This follows the procedures declared by
Apache. The only thing such a thread causes for me, to ensure, that hte
rules are literally followed.

> Why not? It is a machine doing the testing and it runs "for free".

Lie. Of course someone has to pay for the computing power and you might
not have noticed, but we already had to shift from travis to github
actions. Surely not because travis continued to provide the services
for free.

Greetings

Matthias

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Re: Compatibility with JDK 8: Shift work to people wanting it (was: Re: Lets talk about JDK 8 (new year edition))

[Ernie Rael]

(Apologies if you see this twice. First sent this 3 hours ago. It was 
not delivered to me; anyone?)


As Neil says

The question is whether it is worth it?

And Scott
An informed decision needs to be based on these details.  Holding back 
for
JDK 8 compatibility helps no one if there isn't actually any real 
demand to

do so.
AFAICT, there's no stats on JDK version and NBP projects. Maybe the 
closest is general

JDK  usage, I don't know how well they relate, but it's the best we've got.

Last year, there were reports that JDK-8/JDK-11 were neck and neck at 
somewhat under

50 percent, with JDK-11 and JDK-17 picking up steam.

So where's JDK-8 this year? An estimate might be 33%. If one third of 
users are on
JDK-8, is that a real demand? Definitely JDK-8 usage is going down, how 
steeply?

(Plenty of hand waving, but worth trying to base the discussion on fact.)

One question, what is the point below which there's no real demand and it's
not worth it?

-ernie

On 23/02/12 2:22 PM, Neil C Smith wrote:

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023, 19:11 Matthias Bläsing,
  wrote:


Hi,

Am Freitag, dem 10.02.2023 um 10:12 + schrieb Neil C Smith:

On Thu, 9 Feb 2023 at 19:02, Matthias Bläsing

wrote:

- commit to make NetBeans runnable on JDK LTS -1
- build with JDK LTS -1
- be able to be build with the current JDK

+1 as long as that includes the platform.

That is what I suggested in the other thread (I don't see why we need
multiple threads incidentally!)

An LTS-1 strategy seems closest to how NetBeans used to function -
major-1, in a time when it also had more development resources?

Let's also be clear, though, that adopting an LTS-1 strategy means
dropping JDK 11 support either in our first release after JDK 21, or
the first after JDK 22 - so latest May 2024.

why would we do that? I said _runnable_ and _buildable_. As long as the
current JDK support the target release I did not exclude that.


In which case I don't understand what you mean by committing to make
NetBeans buildable and runnable on LTS-1? That to me means dropping the
commitment to JDK 11 when it becomes LTS-2.




- keep as many modules as feasible compatible with release 8

-1 : A number of things have come up recently about preparing for JDK
21+ that would involve increasing the bytecode level and APIs in some
core parts of the NetBeans runtime container.

Could you elaborate what that is? Not using Thread#stop and dropping
finalizers is it not. That can be done (with some pain) with support
for 8. So what is the problem?


Yes, those and I think some others. My paragraph after the one you quoted
was acknowledging we can do this for 8 with some pain (headache). The
question is whether it is worth it?

Best wishes,

Neil

Re: Lets talk about JDK 8 (new year edition)

[Jaroslav Tulach]

Thank you for your reply Neil.

> > > I hope everyone recovered from the last JDK 8 thread and is ready for
> > > the first JDK 8 thread of 2023 :)
> > 
> > Nobody recovers from these threads with you guys without wounds.
> > 
> > -1 (I mean veto) on dropping JDK 8 support.
> 
> If this were a lazy consensus thread, and we're not there yet, I'd
> expect a -1 

As you probably know, I am not participating in day-to-day development of 
NetBeans. It may happen I miss the vote thread - technically it might be 
presented as my mistake, but in reality it would be an obstruction, because 
everyone of you shall know:

I am voting against dropping support for JDK 8.

At any vote you ever call - even if I miss it. Please be so nice and make sure 
I know that a vote is about to happen. Otherwise I will challenge that vote at 
Apache authorities.

> to cover a lot more about an alternative way forward,
> addressing the resource issues, testing capacity constraints, peoples'
> time, priorities in supporting JDK 21+, release headaches, etc.

That's what I have been providing to you for the last three years (at least). 
You were never listening to me. Whenever I tried to move NetBeans IDE forward, 
while keeping the wide usability of NetBeans Platform, you said no.

Well, it is my turn now. I am saying no to "blind" dropping of JDK 8 support. 

> I hope we can find a consensus way forward on all that, but if not we
> end up with a majority vote on the issue.

I certainly hope we find a consensus. That was always the goal behind all my 
proposals in the last few years. 

Threatening with a "non-veto" vote on a code issue is a bit nasty, but I can 
live with it. Just keep me informed, so I can mobilize supporters.

> And soon we'll end up with 8, 11, 17, 21 and 22-ea.  That does not
> feel sustainable.

Why not? It is a machine doing the testing and it runs "for free". Anyway if 
you want to simplify the matrix - then drop 11 or 17 or 21 - they are all the 
same anyway. The the important thing is the bottom and then whether it shall 
be JDK8 or not!

Let the negotiations begin!
-jt




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Re: Lets talk about JDK 8 (new year edition)

[Jaroslav Tulach]

Thank you for the pointers Michael.

> >> This means we need either 1) a volunteer who would like to spend time
> >> and fix JDK 8 tests,
> > 
> > OK, tell me what to do.
> 
> as recap:
> 
> this thread was started to notify that a JDK 8 issue was blocking a
> fairly big Jakarta EE PR (#4692) which made only sense under JDK 11
> anyway. 

Are you saying `enterprise` cluster requires JDK 11 and cannot run on JDK 8? 
It is a relatively huge PR and it is not easy to get my head around it. 
Anyway, there is for example
https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/4692/files?file-filters%5B%5D=.properties=true#diff-6a741863ce06039216c34ea7e2d656c1c98044c11587a52b90fa82a6a9bc5097R19
which claims the module runs on JDK 8 - e.g. where is the problem? That's all 
I am asking for: to run NetBeans on JDK 8 ;-)

I am not able to find the blocker...

> This was detected months ago and fixed less than a month ago by
> Neil - right before the NB 17 deadline as you can see in the discussion.
> That is why it had to be resolved quickly otherwise we would have
> another release with almost no Jakarta EE support.

Glad for NetBeans to support Jakarta EE. Anyway I have to admit, historically 
the `enterprise` modules were always special - nobody really uses them as a 
"NetBeans Platform" - e.g. if you want to drop support for old JDKs in 
`enterprise` cluster - be it! It is (and always has been) a "user facing" 
cluster anyway.

> Help is always appreciated but it is late in this particular case,

Honestly, `enterprise` cluster has always been a lost case. Let's try to save 
the more important clusters!

> we have some umbrella issues here for example where contributions are
> welcome:
> 
> https://github.com/apache/netbeans/issues/4904
> 
> see also 'priority:high' label for more,

The issue says "Many tests fail on JDK 11" - how does that compare to JDK 8? 
Because the problem of many tests failing on JDK 11 has always been that JDK 
11 is incompatible with JDK 8. That's completely different problem - it is a 
problem of the JDK!

I am a guy who cares about compatibility (of NetBeans): Please tell me if 
there is a test that doesn't work on JDK 8 and needs to be fixed.

Summary: if you guys want to support JDK 11, then it is great. Do it! I am 
willing to work as much as I can to **not drop** JDK 8 support. Tell me what 
is blocking you with JDK 8 support and I fix it.

-jt




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Re: Rust, anyone?

[László Kishalmi]

It says: It is recommended to rewrite/migrate the plugin to ANTLR4 and LSP.

On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 11:08 PM John Kostaras  wrote:

> Hello there. There has already been something about Rust
> 
> (written
> in JavaCC).
>
> Ioannis.
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 10:18 AM Antonio 
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks Michael!
> >
> > D'oh! My intents to add Rust to the NetBeans core (very much as in the
> > Linux kernel case) have been detected! :-D
> >
> > Latest commits solve these issues, though (and add new bugs).
> >
> > Next challenge: Cargo workspaces [1].
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Antonio
> >
> > [1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch14-03-cargo-workspaces.html
> >
> > On 12/2/23 9:03, Michael Bien wrote:
> > > for others who want to give it a try: I had to fix two things to make
> > > the build pass:
> > >   - removed references of RustPackage in org.openide.nodes.Node
> > > (probably a happy coding accident)
> > >   - had to create this folder: netbeans/rust/rust.project/test/unit/src
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: Rust, anyone?

[Jakub Herkel]

Antonio, is there any list of things that you want (need) to
implement? Maybe someone (me also) can take some of them.

Jakub

On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 8:08 AM John Kostaras  wrote:
>
> Hello there. There has already been something about Rust
>  (written
> in JavaCC).
>
> Ioannis.
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 10:18 AM Antonio  wrote:
>
> > Thanks Michael!
> >
> > D'oh! My intents to add Rust to the NetBeans core (very much as in the
> > Linux kernel case) have been detected! :-D
> >
> > Latest commits solve these issues, though (and add new bugs).
> >
> > Next challenge: Cargo workspaces [1].
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Antonio
> >
> > [1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch14-03-cargo-workspaces.html
> >
> > On 12/2/23 9:03, Michael Bien wrote:
> > > for others who want to give it a try: I had to fix two things to make
> > > the build pass:
> > >   - removed references of RustPackage in org.openide.nodes.Node
> > > (probably a happy coding accident)
> > >   - had to create this folder: netbeans/rust/rust.project/test/unit/src
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >

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Re: Issues with Gradle 8.0-rc-5 on NB 17rc3

[László Kishalmi]

As far as I've checked the git diff between 8.0-rc-1 and 8.0-rc-5 there is
no change in the tooling parts.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 7:06 AM Scott Palmer  wrote:

>
> > On Feb 13, 2023, at 9:16 AM, Neil C Smith  wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 22:44, Scott Palmer  wrote:
> >>
> >> Trying to run multiple gradle projects from the IDE and second one
> failed.
> >>
> >> A org.gradle.tooling.GradleConnectionException has occurred.
> >>
> >> If you are running the latest 
> version
> >> of NetBeans you can report this
> >> , including a copy of your
> >> messages.log file as an attachment.
> >
> > Following that instruction would be useful! :-)
>
>  That would be my next step.. but I was going to do more to investigate
> first.
>
> >
> > Anything here that might cause pause for thought in progressing to
> > release of 17?
>
> Sorry, I already replied to my original message, but the reply was blocked
> by mailing list filters. Strange.
>
> The issue seems to have been related to a threading issue in my code. It
> may have crashed the JVM (which also shouldn’t have happened, but that bug
> is for someone else).  I’m going to confirm that with a smaller test case
> and I’ll file an issue if it still seems relevant.
>
> At this time I don’t think it is something that should block NB 17.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Scott
>
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
>

Re: NB 17rc3 Java Module caused exception in Lexer?

[László Kishalmi]

Yes. I'd wished to reply on the Gradle 8.0-rc-5 issue thread.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 8:41 AM Scott Palmer  wrote:

> This issue doesn't seem to be Gradle related.  Did you intend to respond to
> my other thread?
>
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 11:05 AM László Kishalmi <
> laszlo.kisha...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > As far as I've checked the git diff between 8.0-rc-1 and 8.0-rc-5 there
> is
> > no change in the tooling parts.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 07:16 Neil C Smith  wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 at 15:11, Scott Palmer  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Feb 13, 2023, at 9:17 AM, Neil C Smith 
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 22:41, Scott Palmer 
> > > wrote:
> > > > >> Saw this in the messages.log for NB 17rc3
> > > > >
> > > > > Please can you report as a bug, with context.
> > > >
> > > > I’m trying to figure out the context.  I noticed it while I was
> looking
> > > for something else.
> > > > Posted here in case someone might have an idea of what could cause
> it.
> > > > If I can reproduce it I will report the bug.
> > >
> > > OK, thanks!  Just going through everything that mentions 17-rc?? to
> > > see where we're at with regards to release.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Compatibility with JDK 8: Shift work to people wanting it (was: Re: Lets talk about JDK 8 (new year edition))

[Ernie Rael]

As Neil says

The question is whether it is worth it?

And Scott

An informed decision needs to be based on these details.  Holding back for
JDK 8 compatibility helps no one if there isn't actually any real demand to
do so.
AFAICT, there's no stats on JDK version and NBP projects. Maybe the 
closest is general

JDK  usage, I don't know how well they relate, but it's the best we've got.

Last year, there were reports that JDK-8/JDK-11 were neck and neck at 
somewhat under

50 percent, with JDK-11 and JDK-17 picking up steam.

So where's JDK-8 this year? An estimate might be 33%. If one third of 
users are on
JDK-8, is that a real demand? Definitely JDK-8 usage is going down, how 
steeply?

(Plenty of hand waving, but worth trying to base the discussion on fact.)

One question, what is the point below which there's no real demand and it's
not worth it?

-ernie

On 23/02/12 2:22 PM, Neil C Smith wrote:

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023, 19:11 Matthias Bläsing,
 wrote:


Hi,

Am Freitag, dem 10.02.2023 um 10:12 + schrieb Neil C Smith:

On Thu, 9 Feb 2023 at 19:02, Matthias Bläsing 


wrote:

- commit to make NetBeans runnable on JDK LTS -1
- build with JDK LTS -1
- be able to be build with the current JDK

+1 as long as that includes the platform.

That is what I suggested in the other thread (I don't see why we need
multiple threads incidentally!)

An LTS-1 strategy seems closest to how NetBeans used to function -
major-1, in a time when it also had more development resources?

Let's also be clear, though, that adopting an LTS-1 strategy means
dropping JDK 11 support either in our first release after JDK 21, or
the first after JDK 22 - so latest May 2024.

why would we do that? I said _runnable_ and _buildable_. As long as the
current JDK support the target release I did not exclude that.


In which case I don't understand what you mean by committing to make
NetBeans buildable and runnable on LTS-1? That to me means dropping the
commitment to JDK 11 when it becomes LTS-2.




- keep as many modules as feasible compatible with release 8

-1 : A number of things have come up recently about preparing for JDK
21+ that would involve increasing the bytecode level and APIs in some
core parts of the NetBeans runtime container.

Could you elaborate what that is? Not using Thread#stop and dropping
finalizers is it not. That can be done (with some pain) with support
for 8. So what is the problem?


Yes, those and I think some others. My paragraph after the one you quoted
was acknowledging we can do this for 8 with some pain (headache). The
question is whether it is worth it?

Best wishes,

Neil




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Re: NB 17rc3 Java Module caused exception in Lexer?

[Scott Palmer]

This issue doesn't seem to be Gradle related.  Did you intend to respond to
my other thread?

On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 11:05 AM László Kishalmi 
wrote:

> As far as I've checked the git diff between 8.0-rc-1 and 8.0-rc-5 there is
> no change in the tooling parts.
>
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 07:16 Neil C Smith  wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 at 15:11, Scott Palmer  wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Feb 13, 2023, at 9:17 AM, Neil C Smith 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 22:41, Scott Palmer 
> > wrote:
> > > >> Saw this in the messages.log for NB 17rc3
> > > >
> > > > Please can you report as a bug, with context.
> > >
> > > I’m trying to figure out the context.  I noticed it while I was looking
> > for something else.
> > > Posted here in case someone might have an idea of what could cause it.
> > > If I can reproduce it I will report the bug.
> >
> > OK, thanks!  Just going through everything that mentions 17-rc?? to
> > see where we're at with regards to release.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: NB 17rc3 Java Module caused exception in Lexer?

[László Kishalmi]

As far as I've checked the git diff between 8.0-rc-1 and 8.0-rc-5 there is
no change in the tooling parts.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 07:16 Neil C Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 at 15:11, Scott Palmer  wrote:
> >
> > > On Feb 13, 2023, at 9:17 AM, Neil C Smith 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 22:41, Scott Palmer 
> wrote:
> > >> Saw this in the messages.log for NB 17rc3
> > >
> > > Please can you report as a bug, with context.
> >
> > I’m trying to figure out the context.  I noticed it while I was looking
> for something else.
> > Posted here in case someone might have an idea of what could cause it.
> > If I can reproduce it I will report the bug.
>
> OK, thanks!  Just going through everything that mentions 17-rc?? to
> see where we're at with regards to release.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>

Re: NB 17rc3 Java Module caused exception in Lexer?

[Neil C Smith]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 at 15:11, Scott Palmer  wrote:
>
> > On Feb 13, 2023, at 9:17 AM, Neil C Smith  wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 22:41, Scott Palmer  wrote:
> >> Saw this in the messages.log for NB 17rc3
> >
> > Please can you report as a bug, with context.
>
> I’m trying to figure out the context.  I noticed it while I was looking for 
> something else.
> Posted here in case someone might have an idea of what could cause it.
> If I can reproduce it I will report the bug.

OK, thanks!  Just going through everything that mentions 17-rc?? to
see where we're at with regards to release.

Best wishes,

Neil

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Re: NB 17rc3 Java Module caused exception in Lexer?

[Scott Palmer]

> On Feb 13, 2023, at 9:17 AM, Neil C Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 22:41, Scott Palmer  wrote:
>> Saw this in the messages.log for NB 17rc3
> 
> Please can you report as a bug, with context.

I’m trying to figure out the context.  I noticed it while I was looking for 
something else.
Posted here in case someone might have an idea of what could cause it.
If I can reproduce it I will report the bug.

Cheers,

Scott

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Neil

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Re: Issues with Gradle 8.0-rc-5 on NB 17rc3

[Scott Palmer]

> On Feb 13, 2023, at 9:16 AM, Neil C Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 22:44, Scott Palmer  wrote:
>> 
>> Trying to run multiple gradle projects from the IDE and second one failed.
>> 
>> A org.gradle.tooling.GradleConnectionException has occurred.
>> 
>> If you are running the latest  version
>> of NetBeans you can report this
>> , including a copy of your
>> messages.log file as an attachment.
> 
> Following that instruction would be useful! :-)

 That would be my next step.. but I was going to do more to investigate first.

> 
> Anything here that might cause pause for thought in progressing to
> release of 17?

Sorry, I already replied to my original message, but the reply was blocked by 
mailing list filters. Strange.

The issue seems to have been related to a threading issue in my code. It may 
have crashed the JVM (which also shouldn’t have happened, but that bug is for 
someone else).  I’m going to confirm that with a smaller test case and I’ll 
file an issue if it still seems relevant.

At this time I don’t think it is something that should block NB 17.

Cheers,

Scott

> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Neil

Proceeding towards NetBeans 17 release?

[Neil C Smith]

Hi,

How are you getting on with 17-rc3?

There are no open PRs against NB17 and no current high / critical
marked issues.  Issues currently marked NB17 that will be pushed back
to NB18 are here -
https://github.com/apache/netbeans/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3ANB17

Any concerns about moving forward with the release build and vote
based on 17-rc3?  Any issues that need to be addressed?

If not, we will likely trigger the build in the next 24 hours or so.
It might take a couple of days to get all artefacts in place for the
single vote thread.

Thanks,

Neil

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Re: NB 17rc3 Java Module caused exception in Lexer?

[Neil C Smith]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 22:41, Scott Palmer  wrote:
> Saw this in the messages.log for NB 17rc3

Please can you report as a bug, with context.

Thanks,

Neil

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Re: Issues with Gradle 8.0-rc-5 on NB 17rc3

[Neil C Smith]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 22:44, Scott Palmer  wrote:
>
> Trying to run multiple gradle projects from the IDE and second one failed.
>
> A org.gradle.tooling.GradleConnectionException has occurred.
>
> If you are running the latest  version
> of NetBeans you can report this
> , including a copy of your
> messages.log file as an attachment.

Following that instruction would be useful! :-)

Anything here that might cause pause for thought in progressing to
release of 17?

Best wishes,

Neil

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Re: [plugin][dev] Looking for SFS Browser NB plugin source code

[Jean-Marc Borer]

Thx to all for your help.

Contrib definitely deserves more attention.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 3:11 PM Michael Bien  wrote:

> the contrib repo is also available here converted to maven projects:
> https://github.com/timboudreau/netbeans-contrib
>
> sfsbrowser is there too,
>
> -mbien
>
> On 17.01.23 14:43, Christian Oyarzun wrote:
> > Hi Jean-Marc,
> >
> > I think this is what you are looking for
> >
> http://source.apidesign.org/hg/netbeans/contrib/file/517409415907/sfsbrowser
> >
> > --Christian
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 2:37 AM Jean-Marc Borer 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I am constantly using the fantastic SystemFileSystem Browser plugin,
> when I
> >> develop for the NB platform.
> >> Lastly I had some idea to improve it and was looking for the plugin,
> but I
> >> was not able to find it anymore on the internet (or I was not able to
> >> properly search for it).
> >>
> >> Does anyone know where I could find the code or has the code or if
> there is
> >> an another plugin that does the same? This plugin is for more advanced
> than
> >> "Browsing the layer.xml" file which serves another purpose.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> JMB
> >>
>
>
> -
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>
>
>
>