Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion

[Neil C Smith]

On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 at 15:34, Neil C Smith  wrote:
>
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 20:01, Michael Bien  wrote:
> > I believe the problem with the tabs is more than the gradients/colors.
> > The active tab looks like it is not attached to the editor due to the
> > separator line. It doesn't look as if it would be on the same "3d
> > level", which lets me intuitively second guess if the active tab is
> > actually the active tab. (I am not saying the colors should not be
> > changed too)
> >
> > But since even intelliJ moved that line up, everything indicates that
> > more share the same opinion / have a problem with it.
>
> Incidentally, I got the urge to see what is possible within the theme
> files of the existing code.

OK, I've put up a PR and full screenshots for discussion to show
possibility of (mostly) just tweaking the colour scheme to address the
issues, rather than discussing abstractedly -

https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/4286

Best wishes,

Neil

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Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion

[Jean-Marc Borer]

As mentioned in the https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115, +1 for me.

Additional question to eirikbakke  as
FaltLaf has advanced customization options that may be more adequate for
some of our NB platform based applications, when where can we call

FlatLaf.registerCustomDefaultsSource( "com.myapp.themes" );
FlatLightLaf.setup();

during Netbeans lifecycle setup? Is it early enough or too late in an
module Installer class? Will it work to override some FlatLaF values or
will all be replaced?

Cheers,

JM

On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 2:34 PM Neil C Smith  wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 20:01, Michael Bien  wrote:
> > I believe the problem with the tabs is more than the gradients/colors.
> > The active tab looks like it is not attached to the editor due to the
> > separator line. It doesn't look as if it would be on the same "3d
> > level", which lets me intuitively second guess if the active tab is
> > actually the active tab. (I am not saying the colors should not be
> > changed too)
> >
> > But since even intelliJ moved that line up, everything indicates that
> > more share the same opinion / have a problem with it.
>
> Incidentally, I got the urge to see what is possible within the theme
> files of the existing code.  Seems we can address most of that already
> with a few property changes? -
> https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115#issuecomment-1166298013
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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>
>
>
>

Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion

[Neil C Smith]

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 20:01, Michael Bien  wrote:
> I believe the problem with the tabs is more than the gradients/colors.
> The active tab looks like it is not attached to the editor due to the
> separator line. It doesn't look as if it would be on the same "3d
> level", which lets me intuitively second guess if the active tab is
> actually the active tab. (I am not saying the colors should not be
> changed too)
>
> But since even intelliJ moved that line up, everything indicates that
> more share the same opinion / have a problem with it.

Incidentally, I got the urge to see what is possible within the theme
files of the existing code.  Seems we can address most of that already
with a few property changes? -
https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115#issuecomment-1166298013

Best wishes,

Neil

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Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion

[Neil C Smith]

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 20:01, Michael Bien  wrote:
> I believe the problem with the tabs is more than the gradients/colors.

Well, all I can say is that with other software I use that has similar
tab design (inc. disconnected flat tabs) it is the better use of
colour contrast and focus/accent colour that means I don't notice this
issue in them.  I do in NetBeans.

> My question is: shouldn't this be changed upstream? Because this sounds
> like an issue which might be potentially changed upstream. To avoid
> having to revert this we should check If there is no desire to provide
> the option or change it upstream,

Yes, this was my hope.  The tab displayer UI is here, but they are
based on the upstream look.*  Not to mention, Karl is also a NetBeans
committer.

* interesting to contrast with running with
-J-DNB.WinSys.WinSys.TabControl.SimpleTabs.Enabled=true

> good defaults are important. So we should try to set it to the most
> popular option so that only few have to change the default (I hope
> enabled is the most popular option ;)).

+1 to enabled by default (despite some reservation on the fix).

Best wishes,

Neil

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Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion

[Michael Bien]

On 24.06.22 21:11, Eirik Bakke wrote:

My question is: shouldn't this be changed upstream?

The window system tabs are not actually part of the upstream FlatLAF 
library--they are in the FlatLAF customization module inside the NetBeans 
codebase. So it's easy to change.


awesome - thats a good sign. But there are also non-editor tabs which 
would be inconsistent as soon we merge, which might be relevant for 
platform apps (but they would have a way out with the option).


At least we wouldn't have to revert it if its changed upstream, which is 
good.


-mbien




-- Eirik

-Original Message-
From: Michael Bien 
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 2:59 PM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org; Neil C Smith 
Subject: Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion

On 24.06.22 17:11, Neil C Smith wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 10:46, Eirik Bakke  wrote:

With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab 
components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble tabs, 
and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by introducing a new 
look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper tab while leaving a 
simplified flattened look for unselected tabs.

To be clear, considering my -0, I totally agree with the visibility
point.  This needs fixing, and I think the tabbed pane UI in FlatLaf
has an accessibility issue here anyway.  I just don't think that
changing the design of the tabs (particularly making them not flat) is
the way to fix it.  I think the colour palette needs more contrast /
accenting.  You can see this in some of the other software screenshots
you shared there.  You can also see it in menus, option categories,
etc.

I believe the problem with the tabs is more than the gradients/colors.
The active tab looks like it is not attached to the editor due to the separator line. It 
doesn't look as if it would be on the same "3d level", which lets me 
intuitively second guess if the active tab is actually the active tab. (I am not saying 
the colors should not be changed too)

But since even intelliJ moved that line up, everything indicates that more 
share the same opinion / have a problem with it.

My question is: shouldn't this be changed upstream? Because this sounds like an 
issue which might be potentially changed upstream. To avoid having to revert 
this we should check If there is no desire to provide the option or change it 
upstream, if there isn't - we should merge IMO (I really like it as i already 
said on the PR).

regarding on or off:

good defaults are important. So we should try to set it to the most popular 
option so that only few have to change the default (I hope enabled is the most 
popular option ;)).

best regards,

michael



I would also say I do think the PR should probably be merged.  I was
hoping Karl might have some thoughts on fixing some of the issues in a
way that more aligns with other areas of FlatLaf, but we can always
tweak further afterwards ...

Best wishes,

Neil

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RE: FlatLAF tab style discussion

[Eirik Bakke]

> My question is: shouldn't this be changed upstream?

The window system tabs are not actually part of the upstream FlatLAF 
library--they are in the FlatLAF customization module inside the NetBeans 
codebase. So it's easy to change.

-- Eirik

-Original Message-
From: Michael Bien  
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 2:59 PM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org; Neil C Smith 
Subject: Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion

On 24.06.22 17:11, Neil C Smith wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 10:46, Eirik Bakke  wrote:
>> With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab 
>> components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe 
>> resemble tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes 
>> this, by introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as 
>> a proper tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs.
> To be clear, considering my -0, I totally agree with the visibility 
> point.  This needs fixing, and I think the tabbed pane UI in FlatLaf 
> has an accessibility issue here anyway.  I just don't think that 
> changing the design of the tabs (particularly making them not flat) is 
> the way to fix it.  I think the colour palette needs more contrast / 
> accenting.  You can see this in some of the other software screenshots 
> you shared there.  You can also see it in menus, option categories, 
> etc.

I believe the problem with the tabs is more than the gradients/colors. 
The active tab looks like it is not attached to the editor due to the separator 
line. It doesn't look as if it would be on the same "3d level", which lets me 
intuitively second guess if the active tab is actually the active tab. (I am 
not saying the colors should not be changed too)

But since even intelliJ moved that line up, everything indicates that more 
share the same opinion / have a problem with it.

My question is: shouldn't this be changed upstream? Because this sounds like an 
issue which might be potentially changed upstream. To avoid having to revert 
this we should check If there is no desire to provide the option or change it 
upstream, if there isn't - we should merge IMO (I really like it as i already 
said on the PR).

regarding on or off:

good defaults are important. So we should try to set it to the most popular 
option so that only few have to change the default (I hope enabled is the most 
popular option ;)).

best regards,

michael


>
> I would also say I do think the PR should probably be merged.  I was 
> hoping Karl might have some thoughts on fixing some of the issues in a 
> way that more aligns with other areas of FlatLaf, but we can always 
> tweak further afterwards ...
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org
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> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
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>
>
>


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Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion

[Michael Bien]

On 24.06.22 17:11, Neil C Smith wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 10:46, Eirik Bakke  wrote:

With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab 
components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble tabs, 
and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by introducing a new 
look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper tab while leaving a 
simplified flattened look for unselected tabs.

To be clear, considering my -0, I totally agree with the visibility
point.  This needs fixing, and I think the tabbed pane UI in FlatLaf
has an accessibility issue here anyway.  I just don't think that
changing the design of the tabs (particularly making them not flat) is
the way to fix it.  I think the colour palette needs more contrast /
accenting.  You can see this in some of the other software screenshots
you shared there.  You can also see it in menus, option categories,
etc.


I believe the problem with the tabs is more than the gradients/colors. 
The active tab looks like it is not attached to the editor due to the 
separator line. It doesn't look as if it would be on the same "3d 
level", which lets me intuitively second guess if the active tab is 
actually the active tab. (I am not saying the colors should not be 
changed too)


But since even intelliJ moved that line up, everything indicates that 
more share the same opinion / have a problem with it.


My question is: shouldn't this be changed upstream? Because this sounds 
like an issue which might be potentially changed upstream. To avoid 
having to revert this we should check If there is no desire to provide 
the option or change it upstream, if there isn't - we should merge IMO 
(I really like it as i already said on the PR).


regarding on or off:

good defaults are important. So we should try to set it to the most 
popular option so that only few have to change the default (I hope 
enabled is the most popular option ;)).


best regards,

michael




I would also say I do think the PR should probably be merged.  I was
hoping Karl might have some thoughts on fixing some of the issues in a
way that more aligns with other areas of FlatLaf, but we can always
tweak further afterwards ...

Best wishes,

Neil

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RE: FlatLAF tab style discussion

[Eirik Bakke]

> I just don't think that changing the design of the tabs (particularly making 
> them not flat) is the way to fix it.  

Well, one question to consider is: Why are the window system tabs flat in the 
first place? They always looked like proper tabs until NetBeans 13. Is the 
"flat" design really better?

One source of confusion may be due to the fact that "FlatLAF" has "flat" in its 
name. But a lot of the advantages we get from FlatLAF--it's high level of 
polish, customizability, cross-platform yet native-looking feel--are unrelated 
to the look of the window system tabs in particular. 

Another point: I did a survey of other IDE-like apps that have tabs in their 
window systems (see screenshots in https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115 
) , and the current NetBeans style resembles only one of them, namely IntelliJ. 
Which makes sense, since FlatLAF was originally meant to mimic the IntelliJ 
theme. But now that NetBeans uses FlatLAF as its default, it is less desirable, 
from a branding perspective, to try to copy the visual style of a "competing" 
IDE.

--- Eirik

-Original Message-
From: Neil C Smith  
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 11:12 AM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Subject: Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 10:46, Eirik Bakke  wrote:
> With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab 
> components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble 
> tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by 
> introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper 
> tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs.

To be clear, considering my -0, I totally agree with the visibility point.  
This needs fixing, and I think the tabbed pane UI in FlatLaf has an 
accessibility issue here anyway.  I just don't think that changing the design 
of the tabs (particularly making them not flat) is the way to fix it.  I think 
the colour palette needs more contrast / accenting.  You can see this in some 
of the other software screenshots you shared there.  You can also see it in 
menus, option categories, etc.

I would also say I do think the PR should probably be merged.  I was hoping 
Karl might have some thoughts on fixing some of the issues in a way that more 
aligns with other areas of FlatLaf, but we can always tweak further afterwards 
...

Best wishes,

Neil

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Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion

[Neil C Smith]

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 10:46, Eirik Bakke  wrote:
> With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab 
> components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble 
> tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by 
> introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper 
> tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs.

To be clear, considering my -0, I totally agree with the visibility
point.  This needs fixing, and I think the tabbed pane UI in FlatLaf
has an accessibility issue here anyway.  I just don't think that
changing the design of the tabs (particularly making them not flat) is
the way to fix it.  I think the colour palette needs more contrast /
accenting.  You can see this in some of the other software screenshots
you shared there.  You can also see it in menus, option categories,
etc.

I would also say I do think the PR should probably be merged.  I was
hoping Karl might have some thoughts on fixing some of the issues in a
way that more aligns with other areas of FlatLaf, but we can always
tweak further afterwards ...

Best wishes,

Neil

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Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion

[Thomas Kellerer]

FlatLaf uses their own themes https://www.formdev.com/flatlaf/themes/

Themes offer more flexibility then customization through properties files: 
https://www.formdev.com/flatlaf/properties-files/

Christian Lenz schrieb am 24.06.2022 um 14:13:
> Hey all,
>
> I prefer to have an option for this because not everyone likes it I Guess. If 
> we will have no Option then I prefer it as default. On the other Hand what 
> Thomas said, to Change the LaF of your choice, the theming Options is that 
> was we are Looking for. I dunno whether it is JSON or property files but this 
> is already there in swing and for this we have already a ticket: 
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-3746 and DevCharly already 
> started a PR: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-3746
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
> Von: Thomas Kellerer
> Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Juni 2022 13:54
> An: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
>
> Eirik Bakke schrieb am 24.06.2022 um 11:46:
>> Hi, dev.
>>
>> There's a discussion on https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115 about 
>> changing the default "look" of window system tabs in NetBeans. See the 
>> before/after screenshots there.
>>
>> With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab 
>> components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe 
>> resemble tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes 
>> this, by introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as 
>> a proper tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs. 
>> Other kinds of tabs, e.g. in dialog boxes, or nested tabs in the Output 
>> pane, retain the more flat "blue underline" style.
>>
>> 1) Would people like this new style to become the default on NetBeans? (See 
>> screenshots in the PR above.)
>> 2) Should there be an option to switch back to the old style?
>
> I still prefer the  Windows Look & Feel, so I don't really care, but 
> regarding the FlatLaf integration:
>
> Maybe NetBeans could support customizing FlatLaf through external .properties 
> file, so people can customize it to their preferences.
>
> Users for my own (non-NetBeans, pure Swing) application were asking about 
> customization options for FlatLaf. So I integrated that.
>
> It's really not a huge effort, this can either be done through .properties 
> file (very easy to integrate) or through .theme files, which requires using a 
> different LnF class during initialization.
>
>
> Maybe that's an option for NetBeans as well.
>
>
> Just my 0.02€
> Thomas

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AW: FlatLAF tab style discussion

[Christian Lenz]

Hey all,

I prefer to have an option for this because not everyone likes it I Guess. If 
we will have no Option then I prefer it as default. On the other Hand what 
Thomas said, to Change the LaF of your choice, the theming Options is that was 
we are Looking for. I dunno whether it is JSON or property files but this is 
already there in swing and for this we have already a ticket: 
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-3746 and DevCharly already 
started a PR: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-3746 


Cheers

Chris

Von: Thomas Kellerer
Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Juni 2022 13:54
An: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Betreff: Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion

Eirik Bakke schrieb am 24.06.2022 um 11:46:
> Hi, dev.
>
> There's a discussion on https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115 about 
> changing the default "look" of window system tabs in NetBeans. See the 
> before/after screenshots there.
>
> With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab 
> components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble 
> tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by 
> introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper 
> tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs. Other 
> kinds of tabs, e.g. in dialog boxes, or nested tabs in the Output pane, 
> retain the more flat "blue underline" style.
>
> 1) Would people like this new style to become the default on NetBeans? (See 
> screenshots in the PR above.)
> 2) Should there be an option to switch back to the old style?

I still prefer the  Windows Look & Feel, so I don't really care, but regarding 
the FlatLaf integration:

Maybe NetBeans could support customizing FlatLaf through external .properties 
file, so people can customize it to their preferences.

Users for my own (non-NetBeans, pure Swing) application were asking about 
customization options for FlatLaf. So I integrated that.

It's really not a huge effort, this can either be done through .properties file 
(very easy to integrate) or through .theme files, which requires using a 
different LnF class during initialization.


Maybe that's an option for NetBeans as well.


Just my 0.02€
Thomas


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Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion

[Thomas Kellerer]

Eirik Bakke schrieb am 24.06.2022 um 11:46:
> Hi, dev.
>
> There's a discussion on https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115 about 
> changing the default "look" of window system tabs in NetBeans. See the 
> before/after screenshots there.
>
> With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab 
> components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble 
> tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by 
> introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper 
> tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs. Other 
> kinds of tabs, e.g. in dialog boxes, or nested tabs in the Output pane, 
> retain the more flat "blue underline" style.
>
> 1) Would people like this new style to become the default on NetBeans? (See 
> screenshots in the PR above.)
> 2) Should there be an option to switch back to the old style?

I still prefer the  Windows Look & Feel, so I don't really care, but regarding 
the FlatLaf integration:

Maybe NetBeans could support customizing FlatLaf through external .properties 
file, so people can customize it to their preferences.

Users for my own (non-NetBeans, pure Swing) application were asking about 
customization options for FlatLaf. So I integrated that.

It's really not a huge effort, this can either be done through .properties file 
(very easy to integrate) or through .theme files, which requires using a 
different LnF class during initialization.


Maybe that's an option for NetBeans as well.


Just my 0.02€
Thomas


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FlatLAF tab style discussion

[Eirik Bakke]

Hi, dev.

There's a discussion on https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115 about 
changing the default "look" of window system tabs in NetBeans. See the 
before/after screenshots there.

With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab 
components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble 
tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by 
introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper tab 
while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs. Other kinds of 
tabs, e.g. in dialog boxes, or nested tabs in the Output pane, retain the more 
flat "blue underline" style.

1) Would people like this new style to become the default on NetBeans? (See 
screenshots in the PR above.)
2) Should there be an option to switch back to the old style?

-- Eirik