RE: Strategic Planning: Website

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Right, thanks.  I talk to Ward (Cunningham) practically every week, and I still 
confuse his name with Ward Christensen when typing it in text.  Christensen was 
a well-known CPM-80 open-source contributor from the 1980s.  (In his day job, 
he was an IBM tech rep.)

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Joseph Schaefer [mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 16:40
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org; orc...@apache.org
Subject: Re: Strategic Planning: Website

His last name is Cunningham, not Christensen, and I enjoyed his bar camp talk 
quite a bit at this year's Apachecon.
Pity the AOO contingent was small this time round.

On Mar 1, 2013, at 4:34 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:

> I don't think entropy is the proper term.
> 
> The physicists version that I learned was in the following form:
> 
> 1. You can't win.
> 2. You can't even break even.
> 3. And you can't get out of the game.
> 
> I think an appropriate concern, here, has to do with technical debt.  The 
> longer the technical debt goes unpaid, the more interest must be paid by 
> someone (often the users).
> 
> The term was introduced by Ward Christensen (inventor of the Wiki, among 
> other things).  Martin Fowler has a nice perspective that discriminates the 
> different ways that technical debt arises (including, "if it was known then 
> what is known now ... ."
> See 
> and .
> 
> - Dennis
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Donald Whytock [mailto:dwhyt...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 08:16
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Strategic Planning: Website
> 
> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> I'd love to hear your thoughts, and see your improvements or corrections.
> 
> "Entropy.  The longer we go without solving some of the above problems
> the worse things will get."
> 
> I'd like to see a slightly-less-apocalyptic wording for this, in light
> of the public exposure and scrutiny AOO seems to receive.  Perhaps:
> 
> "Entropy.  Letting problems persist is easy, and gets easier the
> longer it's allowed to happen.  We need to be proactive in not only
> recognizing the problems, but also working to solve them."
> 
> Don
> 

Re: OOO SDK

[Ariel Constenla-Haile]

Hi Henry,

On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 03:54:05PM -0600, Henry Tiquet Leyva wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> I'm learning how to use the "sequences" in the OOO SDK.

What language binding are you using? UNO IDL has the type sequence that
is mapped to different types in each language binding
http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/DevGuide/FirstSteps/Sequence


Regards
-- 
Ariel Constenla-Haile
La Plata, Argentina


pgpRoAXLIiAzV.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Strategic Planning: Website

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:
> I don't think entropy is the proper term.
>
> The physicists version that I learned was in the following form:
>
>  1. You can't win.
>  2. You can't even break even.
>  3. And you can't get out of the game.
>
> I think an appropriate concern, here, has to do with technical debt.  The 
> longer the technical debt goes unpaid, the more interest must be paid by 
> someone (often the users).
>

There may be technical debt as well, but I was thinking specifically
of entropy, the increase in disorder.  For example, you can see a
steady increase in the number of broken incoming links to our website.

-Rob

> The term was introduced by Ward Christensen (inventor of the Wiki, among 
> other things).  Martin Fowler has a nice perspective that discriminates the 
> different ways that technical debt arises (including, "if it was known then 
> what is known now ... ."
> See 
> and .
>
>  - Dennis
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Donald Whytock [mailto:dwhyt...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 08:16
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Strategic Planning: Website
>
> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> I'd love to hear your thoughts, and see your improvements or corrections.
>
> "Entropy.  The longer we go without solving some of the above problems
> the worse things will get."
>
> I'd like to see a slightly-less-apocalyptic wording for this, in light
> of the public exposure and scrutiny AOO seems to receive.  Perhaps:
>
> "Entropy.  Letting problems persist is easy, and gets easier the
> longer it's allowed to happen.  We need to be proactive in not only
> recognizing the problems, but also working to solve them."
>
> Don
>

Re: Strategic Planning: Website

[Joseph Schaefer]

His last name is Cunningham, not Christensen, and I enjoyed his bar camp talk 
quite a bit at this year's Apachecon.
Pity the AOO contingent was small this time round.

On Mar 1, 2013, at 4:34 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:

> I don't think entropy is the proper term.
> 
> The physicists version that I learned was in the following form:
> 
> 1. You can't win.
> 2. You can't even break even.
> 3. And you can't get out of the game.
> 
> I think an appropriate concern, here, has to do with technical debt.  The 
> longer the technical debt goes unpaid, the more interest must be paid by 
> someone (often the users).
> 
> The term was introduced by Ward Christensen (inventor of the Wiki, among 
> other things).  Martin Fowler has a nice perspective that discriminates the 
> different ways that technical debt arises (including, "if it was known then 
> what is known now ... ."
> See 
> and .
> 
> - Dennis
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Donald Whytock [mailto:dwhyt...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 08:16
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Strategic Planning: Website
> 
> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> I'd love to hear your thoughts, and see your improvements or corrections.
> 
> "Entropy.  The longer we go without solving some of the above problems
> the worse things will get."
> 
> I'd like to see a slightly-less-apocalyptic wording for this, in light
> of the public exposure and scrutiny AOO seems to receive.  Perhaps:
> 
> "Entropy.  Letting problems persist is easy, and gets easier the
> longer it's allowed to happen.  We need to be proactive in not only
> recognizing the problems, but also working to solve them."
> 
> Don
> 

RE: Strategic Planning: Website

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I don't think entropy is the proper term.

The physicists version that I learned was in the following form:

 1. You can't win.
 2. You can't even break even.
 3. And you can't get out of the game.

I think an appropriate concern, here, has to do with technical debt.  The 
longer the technical debt goes unpaid, the more interest must be paid by 
someone (often the users).

The term was introduced by Ward Christensen (inventor of the Wiki, among other 
things).  Martin Fowler has a nice perspective that discriminates the different 
ways that technical debt arises (including, "if it was known then what is known 
now ... ."
See 
and .

 - Dennis



-Original Message-
From: Donald Whytock [mailto:dwhyt...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 08:16
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: Strategic Planning: Website

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> I'd love to hear your thoughts, and see your improvements or corrections.

"Entropy.  The longer we go without solving some of the above problems
the worse things will get."

I'd like to see a slightly-less-apocalyptic wording for this, in light
of the public exposure and scrutiny AOO seems to receive.  Perhaps:

"Entropy.  Letting problems persist is easy, and gets easier the
longer it's allowed to happen.  We need to be proactive in not only
recognizing the problems, but also working to solve them."

Don

Re: Draft blog post: Istanbul to Islamabad

[Kadal Amutham]

The thickness of a CD is 1.2mm. If 40 million CDs are stacked one over the
other, it will reach a height of 48KM ( 1.2 mm x 4000 / 1000 ) in
meter. It will be taller than the tallest mount Everest by 4 times. This is
close to highest altitude achieved by a jet plane. ( Kindly recheck the
calculation )

With Warm Regards

V.Kadal Amutham
919444360480
914422396480


On 1 March 2013 19:43, Rob Weir  wrote:

>
> https://blogs.apache.org/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=apache_openoffice_40_mllion_downloads
>
> We're at 39,695,540 right now, so we should hit 40m before Monday.
> I'll hold the post until them.
>
> If anyone has any other good analogies or visualizations of 40m let me
> know.
>
> -Rob
>

Re: New DEFLATE algorithm from Google

[Louis Suárez-Potts]

Hi

On 13-03-01, at 17:15 , Rob Weir  wrote:

> http://googledevelopers.blogspot.com/2013/02/compress-data-more-densely-with-zopfli.html
> 
> 8% better compression at the cost of slower compression.
> Decompression speed is said to be unchanged.  Apache License 2.0.
> 
> Do we have any use for this?
> 
> Probably not a good trade-off for the use of DEFLATE in our document
> compression -- we don't want to slow down the saving operation.  But
> would this be useful in the install sets?
> 
> -Rob


I read over the short account. The telling statement:

"Due to the amount of CPU time required — 2 to 3 orders of magnitude more than 
zlib at maximum quality — Zopfli is best suited for applications where data is 
compressed once and sent over a network many times, for example, static content 
for the web."

So, I'd think that using this new algorithm for installations sets makes sense. 
For all other uses, I'd agree with you, it does not seem useful for us.

Louis

New DEFLATE algorithm from Google

[Rob Weir]

http://googledevelopers.blogspot.com/2013/02/compress-data-more-densely-with-zopfli.html

8% better compression at the cost of slower compression.
Decompression speed is said to be unchanged.  Apache License 2.0.

Do we have any use for this?

Probably not a good trade-off for the use of DEFLATE in our document
compression -- we don't want to slow down the saving operation.  But
would this be useful in the install sets?

-Rob

Re: update service for not released languages [was: Re: Registration]

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 3:26 PM, janI  wrote:
> On 1 March 2013 21:00, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:
>
>> Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>>> Are we expecting any change to Pootle in the near term?  If so, what and
>>> when?
>>>
>>
>> The changes look trivial but are not so trivial since Pootle accounts are
>> now linked to committer accounts. Currently anonymous users can suggest
>> translations, and users cannot register (they have to be committers).
>>
>> We need, for many good reasons (traceability, accountability...) that
>> anonymous suggestions are disabled and, at the same time, account creation
>> for non-committers is possible.
>>
>> I was concerned about losing content but apparently Jan reassured here and
>> on the l10n list that we are in a position to use/import strings from
>> Pootle at this stage. So it is a configuration/policy issue only.
>
>
> The import might be partly manual or a "perl/python" volunteer writes a
> small script. It is quite simple, match source file, english text in the
> translated po file, with the new po file, and update (I can write the req.
> but I am not fluent in perl/python).
>
> Offering an import possibility was a demand, since I cannot (and will not)
> request a full stop on translation.
>
>
>>
>>  I would not recommend waiting too long.  We've shown that offline
>>> translation is quite reasonable.. Most of the 3.4.1 languages were
>>> done that way.
>>>
>>
>> It worked, but the current process is really demanding on the motivation
>> (or technical skills) of volunteers. Compare an answer like "Welcome! Next
>> week we will send you a link to a .tar.bz2 archive containing 240 PO files
>> that you should open individually, translate and send us back" to "Welcome!
>> Please register at https://translate.apache.org/ and start translating
>> now".
>>
>> Then, if you ask me, I would probably prefer the 240 PO files, but the
>> majority of new volunteers will be perfectly at home with Pootle. So I
>> believe we should fix it before any other mass-recruitment actions.
>>
>
> We need to wait for the release of pootle, last I checked it was still not
> official. Once 2.5 is released I will update translate-vm.
>
> Please consider the translate-vm, is currently NOT configured for a higher
> online volume (about 3 users and mysql is strugling). Infra has agreed that
> I do performance tuning after installing the new release.
>
> It should be possible to configure 2.5 to use both ldap and local db. The
> current version is either/or making it technically impossible to allow
> non-commiter login. Since pootle is seen as a asf-wide service, we need to
> get the acceptance from infra.
>

Ah.  OK.  That is the part I did not know before.  This is not
entirely an Infra policy thing, but we're waiting for some new
technical capabilities in Pootle 2.5.


-Rob


> Please remember genLang will reduce the number of files to 54 files (1 pr
> module, and for helpcontent2 1 pr sub directory). The extraction part of
> genLang is nearly ready for production (as you might have seen in the
> commits).
>
> rgds
> jan I.
>
> Regards,
>>   Andrea.
>>

Re: Sidebar: new developer builds

[Mechtilde]

Hallo Andre,

Am 20.02.2013 13:07, schrieb Andre Fischer:
> Hi,
> 
> after some very hard work the Impress panels are now migrated to the
> sidebar.  These are panels for
> 
> - Layouts
> - Master pages (all, recent, used)
> - Custom animation
> - Slide transition
> - Table
> 
> I have created new developer builds (version 0.7), please see
> 
> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Sidebar#Developer_Builds
> 
> for details.  I made the Linux build with an older Ubuntu, so that more
> people can try it out.  A special activation of the sidebar is not
> necessary anymore.

I tried to get the Debian GNU/linux build running. After unpacking and
copying it under /opt//I tried to start it as with the start
menu as via console.

I get the error "The application cannot be started. An internal error
occurred."

This for your information.

> 
> Have fun,
> Andre

Kind regards

Mechtilde





signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: update service for not released languages [was: Re: Registration]

[janI]

On 1 March 2013 21:00, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:

> Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> Are we expecting any change to Pootle in the near term?  If so, what and
>> when?
>>
>
> The changes look trivial but are not so trivial since Pootle accounts are
> now linked to committer accounts. Currently anonymous users can suggest
> translations, and users cannot register (they have to be committers).
>
> We need, for many good reasons (traceability, accountability...) that
> anonymous suggestions are disabled and, at the same time, account creation
> for non-committers is possible.
>
> I was concerned about losing content but apparently Jan reassured here and
> on the l10n list that we are in a position to use/import strings from
> Pootle at this stage. So it is a configuration/policy issue only.


The import might be partly manual or a "perl/python" volunteer writes a
small script. It is quite simple, match source file, english text in the
translated po file, with the new po file, and update (I can write the req.
but I am not fluent in perl/python).

Offering an import possibility was a demand, since I cannot (and will not)
request a full stop on translation.


>
>  I would not recommend waiting too long.  We've shown that offline
>> translation is quite reasonable.. Most of the 3.4.1 languages were
>> done that way.
>>
>
> It worked, but the current process is really demanding on the motivation
> (or technical skills) of volunteers. Compare an answer like "Welcome! Next
> week we will send you a link to a .tar.bz2 archive containing 240 PO files
> that you should open individually, translate and send us back" to "Welcome!
> Please register at https://translate.apache.org/ and start translating
> now".
>
> Then, if you ask me, I would probably prefer the 240 PO files, but the
> majority of new volunteers will be perfectly at home with Pootle. So I
> believe we should fix it before any other mass-recruitment actions.
>

We need to wait for the release of pootle, last I checked it was still not
official. Once 2.5 is released I will update translate-vm.

Please consider the translate-vm, is currently NOT configured for a higher
online volume (about 3 users and mysql is strugling). Infra has agreed that
I do performance tuning after installing the new release.

It should be possible to configure 2.5 to use both ldap and local db. The
current version is either/or making it technically impossible to allow
non-commiter login. Since pootle is seen as a asf-wide service, we need to
get the acceptance from infra.

Please remember genLang will reduce the number of files to 54 files (1 pr
module, and for helpcontent2 1 pr sub directory). The extraction part of
genLang is nearly ready for production (as you might have seen in the
commits).

rgds
jan I.

Regards,
>   Andrea.
>

Re: update service for not released languages [was: Re: Registration]

[Andrea Pescetti]

Rob Weir wrote:

Are we expecting any change to Pootle in the near term?  If so, what and when?


The changes look trivial but are not so trivial since Pootle accounts 
are now linked to committer accounts. Currently anonymous users can 
suggest translations, and users cannot register (they have to be 
committers).


We need, for many good reasons (traceability, accountability...) that 
anonymous suggestions are disabled and, at the same time, account 
creation for non-committers is possible.


I was concerned about losing content but apparently Jan reassured here 
and on the l10n list that we are in a position to use/import strings 
from Pootle at this stage. So it is a configuration/policy issue only.



I would not recommend waiting too long.  We've shown that offline
translation is quite reasonable.. Most of the 3.4.1 languages were
done that way.


It worked, but the current process is really demanding on the motivation 
(or technical skills) of volunteers. Compare an answer like "Welcome! 
Next week we will send you a link to a .tar.bz2 archive containing 240 
PO files that you should open individually, translate and send us back" 
to "Welcome! Please register at https://translate.apache.org/ and start 
translating now".


Then, if you ask me, I would probably prefer the 240 PO files, but the 
majority of new volunteers will be perfectly at home with Pootle. So I 
believe we should fix it before any other mass-recruitment actions.


Regards,
  Andrea.

Re: Strategic Planning: Website

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Donald Whytock  wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> I'd love to hear your thoughts, and see your improvements or corrections.
>
> "Entropy.  The longer we go without solving some of the above problems
> the worse things will get."
>
> I'd like to see a slightly-less-apocalyptic wording for this, in light
> of the public exposure and scrutiny AOO seems to receive.  Perhaps:
>
> "Entropy.  Letting problems persist is easy, and gets easier the
> longer it's allowed to happen.  We need to be proactive in not only
> recognizing the problems, but also working to solve them."
>

I took that section out altogether.  It seemed like a good section,
but I haven't really found anything to say there that is not just a
repetition of matters already discussed in the earlier sections.

-Rob

> Don

Re: Draft blog post: Istanbul to Islamabad

[Andrea Pescetti]

Rob Weir wrote:

https://blogs.apache.org/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=apache_openoffice_40_mllion_downloads
We're at 39,695,540 right now, so we should hit 40m before Monday.
I'll hold the post until them.
If anyone has any other good analogies or visualizations of 40m let me know.


Nice post. I would link all claims to a source, like linking "4575 km" 
to the Google maps page with directions from Lisbon to Moscow.


A few typos and suggested improvements:
- "Mllion" (missing "i") in the title
- "placed side-by-side, would 4800 km".
- "Los Angles"
- Australia doesn't seem quite right. 
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/as.html 
talks about a coastline of 25,000+ Km (not a circumference, but still: 
if we claim a fact it's good to link to a source to avoid that people 
using different sources have different results).


Regards,
  Andrea.

Re: Strategic Planning: Website

[Kay Schenk]

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:

> I apologize in advance for talking like a corporation.  But I think
> there is some good things we can borrow from corporate thinking, and
> one is to discuss and adopt long-term strategic plans.  The danger of
> not doing this is that continually focus on what is immediately in
> front of our eyes, working on short-term, urgent activities, but never
> accomplish the grand things that can only be done with a big effort
> over time.
>
> To me a strategic plan means we look at where things are today, what
> works, what doesn't.  Then we step back and ask ourselves what our
> goals should be over the next few years.  Maybe even the next year.
> But generally, thinking long-term, beyond the next release, beyond the
> activities that we already have on our plates.
>
> Developing a shared vision for where we want to go is critical to
> long-term success.
>
> As an example, I drafted some ideas on our websites and the challenges
> and opportunities there:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Website+Strategic+Plan
>
> I'd love to hear your thoughts, and see your improvements or corrections.
>
> I'd also encourage anyone who has an interest to draft a similar
> strategic plan for other areas, such as the AOO product itself,
> Documentation, Development process/Build, Marketing, etc.  Note: part
> of this is being honest about what is not working well, as what is
> working well.  So please be critical, but constructive.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Rob
>

Rob, yes I saw the commit notices about this, and GOOD IDEA!

This is no corporate speak to me but, given OpenOffice's history, just good
sense.  I will happily add some items when I get time over the next few
days. We definitely need a "code/product" strategic plan area. MANY items
concerning such things have arisen on this list over the last several
months, and using the strategic plan area is a good way to document them!

Thanks for taking the time to start this.

-- 

MzK

"Achieving happiness requires the right combination of Zen and Zin."

Re: Strategic Planning: Website

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:21 AM, janI  wrote:
> On 1 March 2013 16:19, Rob Weir  wrote:
>
>> I apologize in advance for talking like a corporation.  But I think
>> there is some good things we can borrow from corporate thinking, and
>> one is to discuss and adopt long-term strategic plans.  The danger of
>> not doing this is that continually focus on what is immediately in
>> front of our eyes, working on short-term, urgent activities, but never
>> accomplish the grand things that can only be done with a big effort
>> over time.
>>
>> To me a strategic plan means we look at where things are today, what
>> works, what doesn't.  Then we step back and ask ourselves what our
>> goals should be over the next few years.  Maybe even the next year.
>> But generally, thinking long-term, beyond the next release, beyond the
>> activities that we already have on our plates.
>>
>> Developing a shared vision for where we want to go is critical to
>> long-term success.
>>
>> As an example, I drafted some ideas on our websites and the challenges
>> and opportunities there:
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Website+Strategic+Plan
>>
>> A very good initative, I do feel however that bugzilla and svn are also
> part of of our "outside" image and should be included.
>

If you have some ideas there, go ahead and add them.  Or maybe they
would be part of a "development process" strategic plan?   There is
going to be unavoidable overlap among the plans...

> I agree discussing and developing a shared vision is a requirement for a
> long term success, but it needs to be coupled with the available resources
> and possibilities, otherwise we might come to a vision that is unrealistic.
>

I'm hoping these reinforce each other.  Having a longer-term vision
can help with recruitment as well.  Some volunteers want small
bite-sized things they can work on short term.  But others are looking
for something more exciting and substantial.   So having a few big
challenges is a good thing.  Of course, we don't want science fiction
either.  I did avoid talking about the "semantic web" ;-)

-Rob

> rgds
> Jan I.
>
>> I'd love to hear your thoughts, and see your improvements or corrections.
>>
>> I'd also encourage anyone who has an interest to draft a similar
>> strategic plan for other areas, such as the AOO product itself,
>> Documentation, Development process/Build, Marketing, etc.  Note: part
>> of this is being honest about what is not working well, as what is
>> working well.  So please be critical, but constructive.
>>
>
> Regards,
>>
>> -Rob
>>

 a

Re: Draft blog post: Istanbul to Islamabad

[Donald Whytock]

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> https://blogs.apache.org/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=apache_openoffice_40_mllion_downloads
>
> We're at 39,695,540 right now, so we should hit 40m before Monday.
> I'll hold the post until them.
>
> If anyone has any other good analogies or visualizations of 40m let me know.
>
> -Rob

"imagine,  With" -> "imagine.  With"

consistency on commas in numbers

"CD's" -> "CDs"

"Felix Baumgartner record-breaking" -> "Felix Baumgartner's record-breaking"
or perhaps "the Felix Baumgartner record-breaking"

Don

Re: Strategic Planning: Website

[janI]

On 1 March 2013 16:19, Rob Weir  wrote:

> I apologize in advance for talking like a corporation.  But I think
> there is some good things we can borrow from corporate thinking, and
> one is to discuss and adopt long-term strategic plans.  The danger of
> not doing this is that continually focus on what is immediately in
> front of our eyes, working on short-term, urgent activities, but never
> accomplish the grand things that can only be done with a big effort
> over time.
>
> To me a strategic plan means we look at where things are today, what
> works, what doesn't.  Then we step back and ask ourselves what our
> goals should be over the next few years.  Maybe even the next year.
> But generally, thinking long-term, beyond the next release, beyond the
> activities that we already have on our plates.
>
> Developing a shared vision for where we want to go is critical to
> long-term success.
>
> As an example, I drafted some ideas on our websites and the challenges
> and opportunities there:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Website+Strategic+Plan
>
> A very good initative, I do feel however that bugzilla and svn are also
part of of our "outside" image and should be included.

I agree discussing and developing a shared vision is a requirement for a
long term success, but it needs to be coupled with the available resources
and possibilities, otherwise we might come to a vision that is unrealistic.

rgds
Jan I.

> I'd love to hear your thoughts, and see your improvements or corrections.
>
> I'd also encourage anyone who has an interest to draft a similar
> strategic plan for other areas, such as the AOO product itself,
> Documentation, Development process/Build, Marketing, etc.  Note: part
> of this is being honest about what is not working well, as what is
> working well.  So please be critical, but constructive.
>

Regards,
>
> -Rob
>

Re: Strategic Planning: Website

[Donald Whytock]

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> I'd love to hear your thoughts, and see your improvements or corrections.

"Entropy.  The longer we go without solving some of the above problems
the worse things will get."

I'd like to see a slightly-less-apocalyptic wording for this, in light
of the public exposure and scrutiny AOO seems to receive.  Perhaps:

"Entropy.  Letting problems persist is easy, and gets easier the
longer it's allowed to happen.  We need to be proactive in not only
recognizing the problems, but also working to solve them."

Don

Re: where do we keep a list of translators ?

[janI]

On 1 March 2013 16:26, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 10:13 AM, janI  wrote:
> > On 1 March 2013 13:29, Rob Weir  wrote:
> >
> >> On Mar 1, 2013, at 7:20 AM, Andrea Pescetti 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > janI wrote:
> >> >> I am (as usual) confused
> >> >
> >> > And, as usual, it is not your fault!
> >> >
> >> >> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Languages
> >> >> This page contains among others a list of all languages, and who
> works
> >> on
> >> >> them.
> >> >> I thought this page was replaced by the one rob created sometime ago
> in
> >> >> cwiki, but at least one user (khirano) cares about the content.
> >> >
> >> > The two pages should be consolidated somehow. But the Mwiki page you
> >> edited seems cut, it's better to rely on an older version:
> >> > http://wiki.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=Languages&oldid=201812
> >> > for this discussion.
> >> >
> >> >> Now my question, why did we make a cwiki page if this page is still
> >> active,
> >> >> and if not how are they interconnected (giving users a chance to find
> >> >> updated information).
> >> >
> >> > The new page was probably created to reflect activity at Apache, and
> >> when Mwiki was under maintenance. But search engines will inevitably
> lead
> >> people to Mwiki, so it makes sense to merge the two, unless Rob had
> >> different reasons for creating the Cwiki page.
> >> >
> >> > In general, when we ask new volunteers to sign up for a wiki, it
> should
> >> be Mwiki if the current orientation is to rely more on Mwiki.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Actually, I'm not very comfortable relying on MWiki. We've already had
> >> two near-death experiences with it yet we're still in the exact same
> >> situation: we're using complicated software with no official support
> >> from Infra and reliance on a single  volunteer sys admin.   This is
> >> asking for trouble. If we really want to rely on something we should
> >> mot be in this situation. We need a plan for increasing the base of
> >> support, either within the project, or by getting Infra to officially
> >> support MWiki.
> >>
> >
> > Now you for sure make me even more confusedfirst I have to correct a
> > number of factual errors, but I also need to understand why you have made
> > such a radical change over the last month.
> >
> >  "no official supportfrom Infra and reliance on a single  volunteer sys
> > admino official support"
> > We are 3 volunteers from AOO with sysadmin rights on ooo-wiki, in
> addition
> > to that  we get help from Infra, in person: gmcdonald (who manage the
> vms)
> > and rjung (who helps maintain httpd). So at VM level we have a relatively
> > good coverage, compared to many other Vms.
> >
> > We are also quite a number of sysop who has nearly all possible rights in
> > mwiki, something which you might find more restricted in cwiki.
> >
>
> Unless I have missed the announcement, MWiki is not supported by
> Apache Infra.  It is in the same boat as phpBB for the forums.  It
> does not have the same level of Infra support as, CWiki or MoinMoin,
> or the mailing lists, or Subversion or Bugzilla, for example.
>
> Let me give you a hypothetical:  You are on vacation and there is a
> critical security flaw announced in MWiki and a new patch is
> announced.  You are not reachable.
>
It is a very good question. We had a problem in httpd, and thanks to rjung
from Infra it was solved fast and efficiently.

And let us simply not hope, that all 3 who have access from AOO are on
vacation at the same time, together with gmcdonald (who earlier did a lot
of work on the vm and still use time on the vm).

Does Apache Infra:
>
> 1) Shut down the wiki to protect our users?
>

2) Automatically install a patch and send us a note, like they do when
> supported applications need to be updated?
>
> When we originally installed MWiki in Apache we were told it would be #1.
>
>
> > "two near-death experiences"
> > This must be before my time, I know only of our spam attach, that was
> > handled brilliantly and effectively by our sysops and the breakdown which
> > was NOT mwiki but Ubuntu, and can happen to any VM (including cwiki). The
> > breakdown was handled quite a lot faster than e.g. the breakdown we have
> > (and have had for some time) on our buildbot for linux32.
> >
>
> Yes, the first one was before you got involved.  Don't get me wrong.
> "Near-death" is better than dead ;-)
>

I still dont know what the second was...it can be only the spam attack,
which are sysops handled well, and would not be able to handle as well in
cwiki, or the ubuntu breakdown (which caused the new vm) which has nothing
to do with mwiki.

Just to be sure, I installed the new vm on behalf of and in cooperation
with infra, had I not done it a infra person would have done it.

>
> > Mwiki is a supported and live product, where I get a lot of response
> when I
> > ask questions.
> >
> > I have now been sometime on the infra IRC, and to my best opinion
> ooo-wiki2
> > (mwiki) gets more attention than many other VM

Re: where do we keep a list of translators ?

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 10:13 AM, janI  wrote:
> On 1 March 2013 13:29, Rob Weir  wrote:
>
>> On Mar 1, 2013, at 7:20 AM, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:
>>
>> > janI wrote:
>> >> I am (as usual) confused
>> >
>> > And, as usual, it is not your fault!
>> >
>> >> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Languages
>> >> This page contains among others a list of all languages, and who works
>> on
>> >> them.
>> >> I thought this page was replaced by the one rob created sometime ago in
>> >> cwiki, but at least one user (khirano) cares about the content.
>> >
>> > The two pages should be consolidated somehow. But the Mwiki page you
>> edited seems cut, it's better to rely on an older version:
>> > http://wiki.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=Languages&oldid=201812
>> > for this discussion.
>> >
>> >> Now my question, why did we make a cwiki page if this page is still
>> active,
>> >> and if not how are they interconnected (giving users a chance to find
>> >> updated information).
>> >
>> > The new page was probably created to reflect activity at Apache, and
>> when Mwiki was under maintenance. But search engines will inevitably lead
>> people to Mwiki, so it makes sense to merge the two, unless Rob had
>> different reasons for creating the Cwiki page.
>> >
>> > In general, when we ask new volunteers to sign up for a wiki, it should
>> be Mwiki if the current orientation is to rely more on Mwiki.
>> >
>>
>> Actually, I'm not very comfortable relying on MWiki. We've already had
>> two near-death experiences with it yet we're still in the exact same
>> situation: we're using complicated software with no official support
>> from Infra and reliance on a single  volunteer sys admin.   This is
>> asking for trouble. If we really want to rely on something we should
>> mot be in this situation. We need a plan for increasing the base of
>> support, either within the project, or by getting Infra to officially
>> support MWiki.
>>
>
> Now you for sure make me even more confusedfirst I have to correct a
> number of factual errors, but I also need to understand why you have made
> such a radical change over the last month.
>
>  "no official supportfrom Infra and reliance on a single  volunteer sys
> admino official support"
> We are 3 volunteers from AOO with sysadmin rights on ooo-wiki, in addition
> to that  we get help from Infra, in person: gmcdonald (who manage the vms)
> and rjung (who helps maintain httpd). So at VM level we have a relatively
> good coverage, compared to many other Vms.
>
> We are also quite a number of sysop who has nearly all possible rights in
> mwiki, something which you might find more restricted in cwiki.
>

Unless I have missed the announcement, MWiki is not supported by
Apache Infra.  It is in the same boat as phpBB for the forums.  It
does not have the same level of Infra support as, CWiki or MoinMoin,
or the mailing lists, or Subversion or Bugzilla, for example.

Let me give you a hypothetical:  You are on vacation and there is a
critical security flaw announced in MWiki and a new patch is
announced.  You are not reachable.

Does Apache Infra:

1) Shut down the wiki to protect our users?

2) Automatically install a patch and send us a note, like they do when
supported applications need to be updated?

When we originally installed MWiki in Apache we were told it would be #1.


> "two near-death experiences"
> This must be before my time, I know only of our spam attach, that was
> handled brilliantly and effectively by our sysops and the breakdown which
> was NOT mwiki but Ubuntu, and can happen to any VM (including cwiki). The
> breakdown was handled quite a lot faster than e.g. the breakdown we have
> (and have had for some time) on our buildbot for linux32.
>

Yes, the first one was before you got involved.  Don't get me wrong.
"Near-death" is better than dead ;-)

> Mwiki is a supported and live product, where I get a lot of response when I
> ask questions.
>
> I have now been sometime on the infra IRC, and to my best opinion ooo-wiki2
> (mwiki) gets more attention than many other VMs.
>
> -
> We had a mail thread less than a month ago, regarding Mwiki contra Cwiki,
> multiple PMC (including you) gave support to a transfeer, how come that is
> no longer the right way to do things ?
>

I did not say to not use MWiki.  I said, "We need a plan for
increasing the base of support, either within the project, or by
getting Infra to officially support MWiki."   Strength in numbers.

-Rob

> Rgds
> Jan I.
>
>
>
>
>
> -Rob
>>
>> > Regards,
>> >  Andrea.
>>

Strategic Planning: Website

[Rob Weir]

I apologize in advance for talking like a corporation.  But I think
there is some good things we can borrow from corporate thinking, and
one is to discuss and adopt long-term strategic plans.  The danger of
not doing this is that continually focus on what is immediately in
front of our eyes, working on short-term, urgent activities, but never
accomplish the grand things that can only be done with a big effort
over time.

To me a strategic plan means we look at where things are today, what
works, what doesn't.  Then we step back and ask ourselves what our
goals should be over the next few years.  Maybe even the next year.
But generally, thinking long-term, beyond the next release, beyond the
activities that we already have on our plates.

Developing a shared vision for where we want to go is critical to
long-term success.

As an example, I drafted some ideas on our websites and the challenges
and opportunities there:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Website+Strategic+Plan

I'd love to hear your thoughts, and see your improvements or corrections.

I'd also encourage anyone who has an interest to draft a similar
strategic plan for other areas, such as the AOO product itself,
Documentation, Development process/Build, Marketing, etc.  Note: part
of this is being honest about what is not working well, as what is
working well.  So please be critical, but constructive.

Regards,

-Rob

Re: where do we keep a list of translators ?

[janI]

On 1 March 2013 13:29, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Mar 1, 2013, at 7:20 AM, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:
>
> > janI wrote:
> >> I am (as usual) confused
> >
> > And, as usual, it is not your fault!
> >
> >> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Languages
> >> This page contains among others a list of all languages, and who works
> on
> >> them.
> >> I thought this page was replaced by the one rob created sometime ago in
> >> cwiki, but at least one user (khirano) cares about the content.
> >
> > The two pages should be consolidated somehow. But the Mwiki page you
> edited seems cut, it's better to rely on an older version:
> > http://wiki.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=Languages&oldid=201812
> > for this discussion.
> >
> >> Now my question, why did we make a cwiki page if this page is still
> active,
> >> and if not how are they interconnected (giving users a chance to find
> >> updated information).
> >
> > The new page was probably created to reflect activity at Apache, and
> when Mwiki was under maintenance. But search engines will inevitably lead
> people to Mwiki, so it makes sense to merge the two, unless Rob had
> different reasons for creating the Cwiki page.
> >
> > In general, when we ask new volunteers to sign up for a wiki, it should
> be Mwiki if the current orientation is to rely more on Mwiki.
> >
>
> Actually, I'm not very comfortable relying on MWiki. We've already had
> two near-death experiences with it yet we're still in the exact same
> situation: we're using complicated software with no official support
> from Infra and reliance on a single  volunteer sys admin.   This is
> asking for trouble. If we really want to rely on something we should
> mot be in this situation. We need a plan for increasing the base of
> support, either within the project, or by getting Infra to officially
> support MWiki.
>

Now you for sure make me even more confusedfirst I have to correct a
number of factual errors, but I also need to understand why you have made
such a radical change over the last month.

 "no official supportfrom Infra and reliance on a single  volunteer sys
admino official support"
We are 3 volunteers from AOO with sysadmin rights on ooo-wiki, in addition
to that  we get help from Infra, in person: gmcdonald (who manage the vms)
and rjung (who helps maintain httpd). So at VM level we have a relatively
good coverage, compared to many other Vms.

We are also quite a number of sysop who has nearly all possible rights in
mwiki, something which you might find more restricted in cwiki.

"two near-death experiences"
This must be before my time, I know only of our spam attach, that was
handled brilliantly and effectively by our sysops and the breakdown which
was NOT mwiki but Ubuntu, and can happen to any VM (including cwiki). The
breakdown was handled quite a lot faster than e.g. the breakdown we have
(and have had for some time) on our buildbot for linux32.

Mwiki is a supported and live product, where I get a lot of response when I
ask questions.

I have now been sometime on the infra IRC, and to my best opinion ooo-wiki2
(mwiki) gets more attention than many other VMs.

-
We had a mail thread less than a month ago, regarding Mwiki contra Cwiki,
multiple PMC (including you) gave support to a transfeer, how come that is
no longer the right way to do things ?

Rgds
Jan I.





-Rob
>
> > Regards,
> >  Andrea.
>

Draft blog post: Istanbul to Islamabad

[Rob Weir]

https://blogs.apache.org/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=apache_openoffice_40_mllion_downloads

We're at 39,695,540 right now, so we should hit 40m before Monday.
I'll hold the post until them.

If anyone has any other good analogies or visualizations of 40m let me know.

-Rob

Re: how to change the setup

[FR web forum]

Right click on the file and choose Rename menu. Give the name as you want.

- Mail original -
De: "2" 
À: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Envoyé: Vendredi 1 Mars 2013 10:08:36
Objet: how to change the setup

Hi,
How to change thenameoftheinstallation package before building? I think the
"Apache_OpenOffice_incubating_1.0.1_Win_x86_install_en-US.exe" is not accurate, 
it can be installed in the system with x64, so 
"Apache_OpenOffice_incubating_1.0.1_Win_install_en-US.exe" is better.
BTW, if I want to change the setup information, how can I do that?

Re: update service for not released languages [was: Re: Registration]

[Rob Weir]

On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:52 PM, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:

> On 28/02/2013 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:
>> I had a look and an additional text is possible - see attached screenshot.
>> The additional text should be translated into the corresponding language.
>
> This could be a good idea. We surely don't want to notify users that an 
> update is available if it isn't (in their language).
>

I think it is still worth a notification, especially in bilingual
areas. A user might prefer to have a more recent release in a 2nd
language than an old release in a 1st language.  It is a reasonable
choice either way.

> But if we manage to properly communicate in the dialog box that this is 
> actually a call for volunteers (and write it in the corresponding language so 
> that it cannot be misinterpreted) this could be a nice way to involve new 
> people.
>
> Based on the experience we had so far with teams, I would honestly wait that 
> Pootle is available for all interested languages before we do this. Or at 
> least we should see if we have a timeframe for a new Pootle setup that will 
> maximize the likelihood to actually recruit new volunteers. Ideally, we 
> should also have (unannounced) development builds available in the target 
> languages to be able to point volunteers to them when they write.
>

Are we expecting any change to Pootle in the near term?  If so, what and when?

I would not recommend waiting too long.  We've shown that offline
translation is quite reasonable.. Most of the 3.4.1 languages were
done that way.

-Rob


> Regards,
>  Andrea.

Re: where do we keep a list of translators ?

[Rob Weir]

On Mar 1, 2013, at 7:20 AM, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:

> janI wrote:
>> I am (as usual) confused
>
> And, as usual, it is not your fault!
>
>> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Languages
>> This page contains among others a list of all languages, and who works on
>> them.
>> I thought this page was replaced by the one rob created sometime ago in
>> cwiki, but at least one user (khirano) cares about the content.
>
> The two pages should be consolidated somehow. But the Mwiki page you edited 
> seems cut, it's better to rely on an older version:
> http://wiki.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=Languages&oldid=201812
> for this discussion.
>
>> Now my question, why did we make a cwiki page if this page is still active,
>> and if not how are they interconnected (giving users a chance to find
>> updated information).
>
> The new page was probably created to reflect activity at Apache, and when 
> Mwiki was under maintenance. But search engines will inevitably lead people 
> to Mwiki, so it makes sense to merge the two, unless Rob had different 
> reasons for creating the Cwiki page.
>
> In general, when we ask new volunteers to sign up for a wiki, it should be 
> Mwiki if the current orientation is to rely more on Mwiki.
>

Actually, I'm not very comfortable relying on MWiki. We've already had
two near-death experiences with it yet we're still in the exact same
situation: we're using complicated software with no official support
from Infra and reliance on a single  volunteer sys admin.   This is
asking for trouble. If we really want to rely on something we should
mot be in this situation. We need a plan for increasing the base of
support, either within the project, or by getting Infra to officially
support MWiki.

-Rob

> Regards,
>  Andrea.

Re: where do we keep a list of translators ?

[Rob Weir]

On Mar 1, 2013, at 4:31 AM, janI  wrote:

> Hi.
>
> I am (as usual) confused, I was asked today on mwiki, why I had changed the
> page:
>
> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Languages
>
> This page contains among others a list of all languages, and who works on
> them.
>
> I thought this page was replaced by the one rob created sometime ago in
> cwiki, but at least one user (khirano) cares about the content.
>
> Now my question, why did we make a cwiki page if this page is still active,
> and if not how are they interconnected (giving users a chance to find
> updated information).
>

That MWiki page is not active. Look at the page history. The only
edits in the past 9 months are from you.

That said, the MWiki page has some useful info in it if we want to
contact those who were formerly active.

In any case I see no harm if you want to add a link to cross-reference them.

-Rob


> rgds
> Jan I.

Re: where do we keep a list of translators ?

[Andrea Pescetti]

janI wrote:

I am (as usual) confused


And, as usual, it is not your fault!


http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Languages
This page contains among others a list of all languages, and who works on
them.
I thought this page was replaced by the one rob created sometime ago in
cwiki, but at least one user (khirano) cares about the content.


The two pages should be consolidated somehow. But the Mwiki page you 
edited seems cut, it's better to rely on an older version:

http://wiki.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=Languages&oldid=201812
for this discussion.


Now my question, why did we make a cwiki page if this page is still active,
and if not how are they interconnected (giving users a chance to find
updated information).


The new page was probably created to reflect activity at Apache, and 
when Mwiki was under maintenance. But search engines will inevitably 
lead people to Mwiki, so it makes sense to merge the two, unless Rob had 
different reasons for creating the Cwiki page.


In general, when we ask new volunteers to sign up for a wiki, it should 
be Mwiki if the current orientation is to rely more on Mwiki.


Regards,
  Andrea.

where do we keep a list of translators ?

[janI]

Hi.

I am (as usual) confused, I was asked today on mwiki, why I had changed the
page:

http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Languages

This page contains among others a list of all languages, and who works on
them.

I thought this page was replaced by the one rob created sometime ago in
cwiki, but at least one user (khirano) cares about the content.

Now my question, why did we make a cwiki page if this page is still active,
and if not how are they interconnected (giving users a chance to find
updated information).

rgds
Jan I.

how to change the setup

[2]

Hi,
How to change thenameoftheinstallation package before building? I think the
"Apache_OpenOffice_incubating_1.0.1_Win_x86_install_en-US.exe" is not accurate, 
it can be installed in the system with x64, so 
"Apache_OpenOffice_incubating_1.0.1_Win_install_en-US.exe" is better.
BTW, if I want to change the setup information, how can I do that?

Re: update service for not released languages [was: Re: Registration]

[Oliver-Rainer Wittmann]

Hi,

On 01.03.2013 00:51, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

On 28/02/2013 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:

I had a look and an additional text is possible - see attached
screenshot.
The additional text should be translated into the corresponding language.


This could be a good idea. We surely don't want to notify users that an
update is available if it isn't (in their language).

But if we manage to properly communicate in the dialog box that this is
actually a call for volunteers (and write it in the corresponding
language so that it cannot be misinterpreted) this could be a nice way
to involve new people.



Yes, that was exactly the purpose why I had a look.

+1 from my side to include such an explaining text in the update 
notification dialog.



Based on the experience we had so far with teams, I would honestly wait
that Pootle is available for all interested languages before we do this.
Or at least we should see if we have a timeframe for a new Pootle setup
that will maximize the likelihood to actually recruit new volunteers.
Ideally, we should also have (unannounced) development builds available
in the target languages to be able to point volunteers to them when they
write.



Again +1
Our tools should be ready before we start this promotion.


Best regards, Oliver.