Re: open office questions

[F Campos Costero]

If you truly mean the doc format and not docx, OpenOffice does read and
write that. It reads docx but does not write it. There is no fee for
OpenOffice, just download it from www.openoffice.org.
I would recommend saving your documents in OpenOffice's native odt format
and saving as doc only when you are done editing. Saving in a foreign
format always carries the risk of some loss of formatting.

Regards,
Francis

On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 1:26 PM <
grantcarring...@grantcarrington.freeyellow.com> wrote:

> I am looking for a word processor that  does not require being on the
> internet but that I can download into my computer (for a fee of course)
> that will accept DOC documents and that will create DOC documents.
> Thank you.
>
> --grant carrington

open office questions

[grantcarrington]

I am looking for a word processor that  does not require being on the
internet but that I can download into my computer (for a fee of course)
that will accept DOC documents and that will create DOC documents. 
Thank you. 

--grant carrington

RE: Questions about the release notes

[Jörg Schmidt]

 

> -Original Message-
> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.m...@wtnet.de] 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2020 10:56 AM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Questions about the release notes


> > 2.
> > Who can say something about the entry "AOO Writer - 
> Spellchecker: glitch"?
> > Is this really a new spell checker?
> > Is it really only available under Writer?
> 
> The involved people are listed in the BZ issue:
> https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=128296

oh dear ... I suspected, based on the release notes, there would be a new spell 
checker (= a new spell checking engine) in Writer - i.e. I assumed that the 
name(!) of this spell check engine would be "Glitch".

Thanks for the clarification.



Jörg


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Re: Questions about the release notes

[Marcus]

Am 11.11.20 um 09:27 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:

I started with a German translation of the release note, but I have the 
following questions:

1.
Are there any new dictionaries?
(The statements under "Improvements/Enhancements" and "Language Support" seem 
to be contradictory to each other).


to make it short: no

But for me it's clear. Here the text in a condensed form:

Improvements/Enhancements
- Updated dictionaries

Language Support
New and Updated Translations
- There are no new or updated languages.

New and Updated Dictionaries
New Dictionaries
- There are no new dictionaries

Updated Dictionaries
- Asturian (ast)
- Danish (da)
- English (en-GB)
- Lithuanian (lt)


2.
Who can say something about the entry "AOO Writer - Spellchecker: glitch"?
Is this really a new spell checker?
Is it really only available under Writer?


The involved people are listed in the BZ issue:
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=128296

Marcus


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Questions about the release notes

[Jörg Schmidt]

Hello,

I started with a German translation of the release note, but I have the 
following questions:

1.
Are there any new dictionaries?
(The statements under "Improvements/Enhancements" and "Language Support" seem 
to be contradictory to each other).

2.
Who can say something about the entry "AOO Writer - Spellchecker: glitch"?
Is this really a new spell checker? 
Is it really only available under Writer?


greetings,
Jörg



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Re: A few questions about 4.1.6 for Release Notes

[Jim Jagielski]

For Linux, Java7, for macOS, Java6

> On Nov 15, 2018, at 6:15 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:
> 
> On 11/14/2018 09:29 PM, Don Lewis wrote:
>> On 15 Nov, Matthias Seidel wrote:
>>> Hi Kay,
>>> 
>>> Am 15.11.18 um 00:48 schrieb Kay Schenk:
 Two things --
 * I see localization was set up for Kabyle. So is this a new language
 addition?
>>> 
>>> No, only locale data were added internally.
>>> 
 * some discussion and commits about Java 8,
 see: https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=127876
 Changes were committed to the 4.1.6 branch near as I can tell.
 So...does AOO require Java 8 now or can Java 7 still be used?
>>> 
>>> Changes for Java 8 were revoked, but that did only affect the building
>>> process.
>>> 
>>> Java 8 as well as Java 7 can still be used like before.
>> Yes, but at least on Windows, if you build with Java 8, the resulting
>> binaries will not recognize Java 7.  This is only true for 4.1.x and
>> does not affect trunk for some reason even though the code is
>> essentially identical.  I haven't had a time to dig into this problem.
> 
> OK. What is our (soon to be ) distributed 4.1.6 built with then? This is 
> important for the System Requirements page.
> 
> https://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_aoo41.html 
> 
> 
> I'm assuming at this point the Java info at the bottom should be a minimum of 
> Java 7? Unless this has really been tested with Jave 1.5 (Java 5)
> 
>> The fix in this bug report is to allow ODK to be built with Java 8.
>> Since the fix was revoked, if you want to build ODK, then you must build
>> with Java 7.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> --
> MzK
> 
> "Less is MORE."
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org 
> 
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org 
> 

Re: A few questions about 4.1.6 for Release Notes

[Kay Schenk]

On 11/14/2018 09:29 PM, Don Lewis wrote:

On 15 Nov, Matthias Seidel wrote:

Hi Kay,

Am 15.11.18 um 00:48 schrieb Kay Schenk:

Two things --
* I see localization was set up for Kabyle. So is this a new language
addition?


No, only locale data were added internally.


* some discussion and commits about Java 8,
see: https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=127876
Changes were committed to the 4.1.6 branch near as I can tell.
So...does AOO require Java 8 now or can Java 7 still be used?


Changes for Java 8 were revoked, but that did only affect the building
process.

Java 8 as well as Java 7 can still be used like before.


Yes, but at least on Windows, if you build with Java 8, the resulting
binaries will not recognize Java 7.  This is only true for 4.1.x and
does not affect trunk for some reason even though the code is
essentially identical.  I haven't had a time to dig into this problem.


OK. What is our (soon to be ) distributed 4.1.6 built with then? This is 
important for the System Requirements page.


https://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_aoo41.html

I'm assuming at this point the Java info at the bottom should be a 
minimum of Java 7? Unless this has really been tested with Jave 1.5 (Java 5)




The fix in this bug report is to allow ODK to be built with Java 8.
Since the fix was revoked, if you want to build ODK, then you must build
with Java 7.







--
--
MzK

"Less is MORE."

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Re: A few questions about 4.1.6 for Release Notes

[Don Lewis]

On 15 Nov, Matthias Seidel wrote:
> Hi Kay,
> 
> Am 15.11.18 um 00:48 schrieb Kay Schenk:
>> Two things --
>> * I see localization was set up for Kabyle. So is this a new language
>> addition?
> 
> No, only locale data were added internally.
> 
>> * some discussion and commits about Java 8,
>> see: https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=127876
>> Changes were committed to the 4.1.6 branch near as I can tell.
>> So...does AOO require Java 8 now or can Java 7 still be used?
> 
> Changes for Java 8 were revoked, but that did only affect the building
> process.
> 
> Java 8 as well as Java 7 can still be used like before.

Yes, but at least on Windows, if you build with Java 8, the resulting
binaries will not recognize Java 7.  This is only true for 4.1.x and
does not affect trunk for some reason even though the code is
essentially identical.  I haven't had a time to dig into this problem.

The fix in this bug report is to allow ODK to be built with Java 8.
Since the fix was revoked, if you want to build ODK, then you must build
with Java 7.



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Re: A few questions about 4.1.6 for Release Notes

[Keith N. McKenna]

On 11/14/2018 6:48 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:
> Two things --
> * I see localization was set up for Kabyle. So is this a new language
> addition?
> 
> * some discussion and commits about Java 8,
> see: https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=127876
> Changes were committed to the 4.1.6 branch near as I can tell.
> So...does AOO require Java 8 now or can Java 7 still be used?
> 
> I may have more questions coming in the next day or so, but hopefully not
> many. I will make every attempt to get this ready by Fri afternoon, PST.
> 
Kay

I already removed the Kabyle entry from the Release Notes.
As far as the Java 8 Issue. I believe the RC-1 builds were built with
Java 7 so that either Java 7 or Java 8 will be recognized.



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Re: A few questions about 4.1.6 for Release Notes

[Matthias Seidel]

Hi Kay,

Am 15.11.18 um 00:48 schrieb Kay Schenk:
> Two things --
> * I see localization was set up for Kabyle. So is this a new language
> addition?

No, only locale data were added internally.

> * some discussion and commits about Java 8,
> see: https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=127876
> Changes were committed to the 4.1.6 branch near as I can tell.
> So...does AOO require Java 8 now or can Java 7 still be used?

Changes for Java 8 were revoked, but that did only affect the building
process.

Java 8 as well as Java 7 can still be used like before.

>
> I may have more questions coming in the next day or so, but hopefully not
> many. I will make every attempt to get this ready by Fri afternoon, PST.
>
Thanks!

Matthias




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A few questions about 4.1.6 for Release Notes

[Kay Schenk]

Two things --
* I see localization was set up for Kabyle. So is this a new language
addition?

* some discussion and commits about Java 8,
see: https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=127876
Changes were committed to the 4.1.6 branch near as I can tell.
So...does AOO require Java 8 now or can Java 7 still be used?

I may have more questions coming in the next day or so, but hopefully not
many. I will make every attempt to get this ready by Fri afternoon, PST.

-- 
--
MzK

"Less is MORE."

Re: Subscribe to Questions and Answers

[Tammy Curtis]

Thank you for the information.

Tammy

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 7:23 AM Dave Barton  wrote:

> Hi Tammy,
>
> Just to expand a little on Peter's information:
>
> If you wish to take part in the project's activities (eg. coding,
> documentation, user support, etc.) the points of contact can be found here:
> https://openoffice.apache.org/mailing-lists.html
>
> If you wish to ask and answer user questions the most appropriate list is:
> us...@openoffice.apache.org As Peter explained you are not required to
> subscribe to this or any list, but if you do not subscribe your postings
> have to be processed through moderation and you will not automatically
> receive copies of your posts or any replies.
>
> Kind Regards
> Dave
>
>  Original Message 
> From: Tammy Curtis  
> To: Peter kovacs  
> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 06:18:43 -0600
>
> Thank you for your response.
>
> Tammy
>
> On Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 12:12 AM Peter kovacs  
>  wrote:
>
>
> Hi Tammy Curtis,
>
> You can simply send your questions to the List, there is no need in
> subscribing in order to get some answers. But if you like to read our List
> or want to participate you are welcome to subscribe. This is a public
> project. It is open to anyone.
>
> All the best
> Peter
>
> Am 23. September 2018 20:46:04 MESZ schrieb Tammy Curtis 
> :
>
> May I subscribe to get questions and answers?
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
>
>

Re: Subscribe to Questions and Answers

[Dave Barton]

Hi Tammy,

Just to expand a little on Peter's information:

If you wish to take part in the project's activities (eg. coding,
documentation, user support, etc.) the points of contact can be found
here: https://openoffice.apache.org/mailing-lists.html

If you wish to ask and answer user questions the most appropriate list
is: us...@openoffice.apache.org As Peter explained you are not required
to subscribe to this or any list, but if you do not subscribe your
postings have to be processed through moderation and you will not
automatically receive copies of your posts or any replies.

Kind Regards
Dave

 Original Message 
From: Tammy Curtis 
To: Peter kovacs 
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 06:18:43 -0600

> Thank you for your response.
>
> Tammy
>
> On Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 12:12 AM Peter kovacs  wrote:
>
>> Hi Tammy Curtis,
>>
>> You can simply send your questions to the List, there is no need in
>> subscribing in order to get some answers. But if you like to read our List
>> or want to participate you are welcome to subscribe. This is a public
>> project. It is open to anyone.
>>
>> All the best
>> Peter
>>
>> Am 23. September 2018 20:46:04 MESZ schrieb Tammy Curtis <
>> curtis7...@gmail.com>:
>>> May I subscribe to get questions and answers?
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Re: Subscribe to Questions and Answers

[Tammy Curtis]

Thank you for your response.

Tammy

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 12:12 AM Peter kovacs  wrote:

> Hi Tammy Curtis,
>
> You can simply send your questions to the List, there is no need in
> subscribing in order to get some answers. But if you like to read our List
> or want to participate you are welcome to subscribe. This is a public
> project. It is open to anyone.
>
> All the best
> Peter
>
> Am 23. September 2018 20:46:04 MESZ schrieb Tammy Curtis <
> curtis7...@gmail.com>:
> >May I subscribe to get questions and answers?
> >
> >Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>

Re: Subscribe to Questions and Answers

[Peter kovacs]

Hi Tammy Curtis,

You can simply send your questions to the List, there is no need in subscribing 
in order to get some answers. But if you like to read our List or want to 
participate you are welcome to subscribe. This is a public project. It is open 
to anyone.

All the best
Peter

Am 23. September 2018 20:46:04 MESZ schrieb Tammy Curtis :
>May I subscribe to get questions and answers?
>
>Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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Subscribe to Questions and Answers

[Tammy Curtis]

May I subscribe to get questions and answers?

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Re: Questions to update the 4.1.4 Release Notes

[Matthias Seidel]

Hi Keith,

Am 10.09.2017 um 01:40 schrieb Keith N. McKenna:
> I have been reviewing the Release Notes for the 4.1.4 Release and have a
> couple of questions on the Known Issues section.
>
> 1. For developers: the source package of OpenOffice 4.1.4 will not build
> on 32-bit versions of Ubuntu 14.04  and similar distributions. The
> source fails to build in main/svl with this error: undefined reference
> to `__stack_chk_fail'. Is this still a problem with AOO 4.1.4

See my other mail regarding our Linux32 buildbots.

==> /etc/lsb-release <== DISTRIB_ID=Ubuntu DISTRIB_RELEASE=14.04
DISTRIB_CODENAME=trusty DISTRIB_DESCRIPTION="Ubuntu 14.04.5 LTS"


I can now confirm that they perfectly build 4.1.4 on Ubuntu 14.04.5 32bit:
https://ci.apache.org/projects/openoffice/install/lin41x/

Kind regards, Matthias


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Re: Questions to update the 4.1.4 Release Notes

[Matthias Seidel]

Am 10.09.2017 um 01:40 schrieb Keith N. McKenna:
> I have been reviewing the Release Notes for the 4.1.4 Release and have a
> couple of questions on the Known Issues section.
>
> 1. For developers: the source package of OpenOffice 4.1.4 will not build
> on 32-bit versions of Ubuntu 14.04  and similar distributions. The
> source fails to build in main/svl with this error: undefined reference
> to `__stack_chk_fail'. Is this still a problem with AOO 4.1.4

Hi Keith,

I am not sure here...
Our buildbots run on Ubuntu 14.04 and they (normally) produce weekly
builds of branch 4.1.4.

>
> 2. For developers: the OpenOffice SDK won't build with Java 8. Either
> build with --disable-odk or see the dev list archives for possible
> solutions. Is this still a problem with AOO 4.1.4.

This is still valid.
The fixes for Java 8 are in trunk but have not been backported to 4.1.4.

Regards, Matthias

>
> Regards
> Keith
>




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Questions to update the 4.1.4 Release Notes

[Keith N. McKenna]

I have been reviewing the Release Notes for the 4.1.4 Release and have a
couple of questions on the Known Issues section.

1. For developers: the source package of OpenOffice 4.1.4 will not build
on 32-bit versions of Ubuntu 14.04  and similar distributions. The
source fails to build in main/svl with this error: undefined reference
to `__stack_chk_fail'. Is this still a problem with AOO 4.1.4

2. For developers: the OpenOffice SDK won't build with Java 8. Either
build with --disable-odk or see the dev list archives for possible
solutions. Is this still a problem with AOO 4.1.4.

Regards
Keith



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Re: Questions about AOO Users

[toki]

On 24/11/16 08:29, RA Stehmann wrote:

> distribute AOO, all figures are not really significant to identify the number 
> of users.

Twould be much more appropriate to recommend software on the basis of
the client's proposed use case, using examples of users with similar
use-cases, that demonstrate how suitable, or unsuitable the proposed
solution is.

jonathon



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Re: Questions about AOO Users

[RA Stehmann]

Hello,

only a few remarks:

Am 24.11.2016 um 07:02 schrieb toki:
> On 23/11/16 22:10, Crystal wrote:
.
> 
>> 2.)Approximately how many users of OpenOffice are there worldwide?
> 
> Being FLOSS, there is no way to know if one download represents one
> user, or 40,000 users. Likewise, there is no way to know if the same
> person downloaded the program two or more times. Currently, there are
> roughly 100,000 downloads of Apache OpenOffice every day.
> 
> To do the statistical analysis of OS, and where people download the
> program from, go to
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/openofficeorg.mirror/files/stats/json?start_date=2015-01-01&end_date=2016-11-22
> 
> One major issue, is that this data is from SourceForge, and reflects
> that percentage of the population that uses either Windows, or Mac OS X.
> Linux users tend to download AOo from the distro repository. Users of
> versions of *Nix tend to compile from source.

In most Linux distributions AOO is yet not included. So nowadays Linux
users are in the same situation like other users.

But there are more ways of distribution than SourceForge. There are
other mirrors and download possibilities. Magazines distribute AOO via
optical media. You can get AOO from your neighbour. AOO is part of Free
Software compilations like the PrOOoBox. And so on ... .

Because there is no permission or registration needed to share or
distribute AOO, all figures are not really significant to identify the
number of users.

You can only say, that AOO has one of the largest number of users of all
Free Software projects.
> 
>> 4.)On average per year, how many times does OpenOffice release an 
>> update/patch?
> 
> Currently, AOo does one release per year.
>  
Even that is no fix figure. If more releases are neccessary, there will
be more.

Kind regards
Michael



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Re: Questions about AOO Users

[toki]

On 23/11/16 22:10, Crystal wrote:

> I will need an answer on or before 28-Nov-2016 

Dropping a question like this the day before a _major_ holiday in the
US, with an expected response before the first workday after that
holiday, to ask specific questions about usage in the US is really bad
planning on somebody's part.

> 2.)Approximately how many users of OpenOffice are there worldwide?

Being FLOSS, there is no way to know if one download represents one
user, or 40,000 users. Likewise, there is no way to know if the same
person downloaded the program two or more times. Currently, there are
roughly 100,000 downloads of Apache OpenOffice every day.

To do the statistical analysis of OS, and where people download the
program from, go to
https://sourceforge.net/projects/openofficeorg.mirror/files/stats/json?start_date=2015-01-01&end_date=2016-11-22

One major issue, is that this data is from SourceForge, and reflects
that percentage of the population that uses either Windows, or Mac OS X.
Linux users tend to download AOo from the distro repository. Users of
versions of *Nix tend to compile from source.

> 3.)Do you have an estimate as to how many of those users are in the 
> United States?

For 1st quarter and 2nd quarter 2016, 15% of the downloads are from the
United States, but 36% of the downloads are for en_US.

Sorry, I don't have the URL for downloads by language pack. :(

Neither the web forum nor the mailing list provide data about where the
users are from.

> 4.)On average per year, how many times does OpenOffice release an 
> update/patch?

Currently, AOo does one release per year.

jonathon

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Questions about AOO Users

[Buckneberg, Crystal R]

I was suggested to subscribe to this list by the people of the users mailing 
list.

Dear Sir or Madam,

Greetings!  My name is Crystal Buckneberg and I am currently working on a 
project for Technical Writing (A college level class I am currently taking at 
Southeast Technical Institute in Sioux Falls, SD USA) that is comparing MS 
Office, OpenOffice and LibreOffice and then making a recommendation to a client 
on which one to use.  I have a few questions that will help me to pull this 
document together if you have a few minutes of time.

I will need an answer on or before 28-Nov-2016 so I have time to integrate your 
information into the report.


1.)What is your official title within the Apache Software Foundation 
organization?

2.)Approximately how many users of OpenOffice are there worldwide?

3.)Do you have an estimate as to how many of those users are in the United 
States?

4.)On average per year, how many times does OpenOffice release an 
update/patch?

I need to know this information by November 28, 2016 so that I can integrate 
this information into my report.

Thank you for your time and consideration.  I hope to hear from you soon.

Sincerely,
Crystal Buckneberg
crystal.buckneb...@southeasttech.edu<mailto:crystal.buckneb...@southeasttech.edu>
Computer Programming Student
Southeast Tech AITP Webmaster

Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Gav]

On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 4:10 AM, Kay Schenk  wrote:

>
>
> On 08/28/2016 10:52 AM, Don Lewis wrote:
> > On 28 Aug, Kay Schenk wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On 08/27/2016 06:22 PM, Gav wrote:
> >>> Hi.
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Don Lewis 
> wrote:
> >>>
>  On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> > On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Don Lewis 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> >>> Hi Don,
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Don Lewis 
>  wrote:
> >>>
>  On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> > junit 4.11 is installed on the new buildbots we are prepping for
>  use
> >> fwiw
> 
>  We'll also need hamcrest version 1.3.
> 
> >>>
> >>> Ubuntu 14.04 LTS python-hamcrest is version 1.8 , is that too new?
> >>> I'd like to try and stick to what the Ubuntu apt-get packages
> provide,
> >>> if not possible, alternate uris where we can get other versions
> from.
> >>
> >> We don't want python-hamcrest.  We just want the hamcrest1.3.jar
> file.
> >> I think this is it:
> >>  >> all/1.3/hamcrest-all-1.3.jar>
> >>
> >>
> > ok, in that case should we just not add it as a buildbot buildstep to
> > download it during a build ?
> 
>  That was something that Damjan suggested as a possibility, but the
>  question was whether ext_sources was an appropriate place to stash it
> as
>  it is a compiled artifact.
> 
>  Based on this old bug report:
>  , you
> might
>  want to investigate whether the junit package actually include
> hamcrest
>  as well.
> 
> 
> >>> I expanded the install /usr/share/java/junit4.jar and saw no evidence
> of
> >>> hamcrest - and
> >>> the bug you reference is still open, so not fixed I guess :/
> >>>
> >>> I found where it is being actively developed (junit4 and junit5) on
> GitHub.
> >>>
> >>> https://github.com/junit-team/junit4/blob/master/pom.xml
> >>>
> >>>  Shows that it pulls in hamcrest as a dependency - does that mean it
> makes
> >>> it available
> >>> for use ? I don't know.
> >>
> >> First of all, thank you for all this work, Gav!
> >>
> >> If you've got information on the complete pack for Junit4 (4.11), can
> >> you see if ANY hamcrest jar is included? I personally just manually
> >> downloaded hamcrest-core-1.3.jar, put into /usr/share/java and made a
> >> sym link called just  hamcrest.jar to it.
> >
> > I don't have a Ubuntu 14 VM handy, but I just got my Ubuntu 16 VM
> > working again.  Junit doesn't install hamcrest, and python-hamcrest
> > doesn't either.  The package that does install hamcrest-all.jar is
> > libhamcrest-java.
> >
>
> Thanks for checking on all this, Don, and you are absolutely correct!
> Gav, it seems what we should install  on the new 14.04 systems is this:
>
> http://packages.ubuntu.com/trusty/libhamcrest1.2-java


Great, that works.


>
> This should work with the default junit 4.11. We do not want or need the
> hamcrest-python.
>
> Unless something's changed significantly in the junit tests (and I have
> not researched this), this should work for us. We used junit 4.11 for
> testing on AOO 4.1.1.
>

ack, default junit4 on 14.04 LTS Ubuntu is 4.11 so all good there.

Thanks.

-- 
Gav...

Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Kay Schenk]

On 08/28/2016 10:52 AM, Don Lewis wrote:
> On 28 Aug, Kay Schenk wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 08/27/2016 06:22 PM, Gav wrote:
>>> Hi.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:
>>>
 On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:
>
>> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
>>> Hi Don,
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Don Lewis 
 wrote:
>>>
 On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> junit 4.11 is installed on the new buildbots we are prepping for
 use
>> fwiw

 We'll also need hamcrest version 1.3.

>>>
>>> Ubuntu 14.04 LTS python-hamcrest is version 1.8 , is that too new?
>>> I'd like to try and stick to what the Ubuntu apt-get packages provide,
>>> if not possible, alternate uris where we can get other versions from.
>>
>> We don't want python-hamcrest.  We just want the hamcrest1.3.jar file.
>> I think this is it:
>> > all/1.3/hamcrest-all-1.3.jar>
>>
>>
> ok, in that case should we just not add it as a buildbot buildstep to
> download it during a build ?

 That was something that Damjan suggested as a possibility, but the
 question was whether ext_sources was an appropriate place to stash it as
 it is a compiled artifact.

 Based on this old bug report:
 , you might
 want to investigate whether the junit package actually include hamcrest
 as well.


>>> I expanded the install /usr/share/java/junit4.jar and saw no evidence of
>>> hamcrest - and
>>> the bug you reference is still open, so not fixed I guess :/
>>>
>>> I found where it is being actively developed (junit4 and junit5) on GitHub.
>>>
>>> https://github.com/junit-team/junit4/blob/master/pom.xml
>>>
>>>  Shows that it pulls in hamcrest as a dependency - does that mean it makes
>>> it available
>>> for use ? I don't know.
>>
>> First of all, thank you for all this work, Gav!
>>
>> If you've got information on the complete pack for Junit4 (4.11), can
>> you see if ANY hamcrest jar is included? I personally just manually
>> downloaded hamcrest-core-1.3.jar, put into /usr/share/java and made a
>> sym link called just  hamcrest.jar to it.
> 
> I don't have a Ubuntu 14 VM handy, but I just got my Ubuntu 16 VM
> working again.  Junit doesn't install hamcrest, and python-hamcrest
> doesn't either.  The package that does install hamcrest-all.jar is
> libhamcrest-java.
> 

Thanks for checking on all this, Don, and you are absolutely correct!
Gav, it seems what we should install  on the new 14.04 systems is this:

http://packages.ubuntu.com/trusty/libhamcrest1.2-java

This should work with the default junit 4.11. We do not want or need the
hamcrest-python.

Unless something's changed significantly in the junit tests (and I have
not researched this), this should work for us. We used junit 4.11 for
testing on AOO 4.1.1.


-- 

Kay Schenk
Apache OpenOffice

"Things work out best for those who make
 the best of the way things work out."
 -- John Wooden

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Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Don Lewis]

On 28 Aug, Kay Schenk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 08/27/2016 06:22 PM, Gav wrote:
>> Hi.
>> 
>> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
 On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:

> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
>> Hi Don,
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Don Lewis 
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
 junit 4.11 is installed on the new buildbots we are prepping for
>>> use
> fwiw
>>>
>>> We'll also need hamcrest version 1.3.
>>>
>>
>> Ubuntu 14.04 LTS python-hamcrest is version 1.8 , is that too new?
>> I'd like to try and stick to what the Ubuntu apt-get packages provide,
>> if not possible, alternate uris where we can get other versions from.
>
> We don't want python-hamcrest.  We just want the hamcrest1.3.jar file.
> I think this is it:
>  all/1.3/hamcrest-all-1.3.jar>
>
>
 ok, in that case should we just not add it as a buildbot buildstep to
 download it during a build ?
>>>
>>> That was something that Damjan suggested as a possibility, but the
>>> question was whether ext_sources was an appropriate place to stash it as
>>> it is a compiled artifact.
>>>
>>> Based on this old bug report:
>>> , you might
>>> want to investigate whether the junit package actually include hamcrest
>>> as well.
>>>
>>>
>> I expanded the install /usr/share/java/junit4.jar and saw no evidence of
>> hamcrest - and
>> the bug you reference is still open, so not fixed I guess :/
>> 
>> I found where it is being actively developed (junit4 and junit5) on GitHub.
>> 
>> https://github.com/junit-team/junit4/blob/master/pom.xml
>> 
>>  Shows that it pulls in hamcrest as a dependency - does that mean it makes
>> it available
>> for use ? I don't know.
> 
> First of all, thank you for all this work, Gav!
> 
> If you've got information on the complete pack for Junit4 (4.11), can
> you see if ANY hamcrest jar is included? I personally just manually
> downloaded hamcrest-core-1.3.jar, put into /usr/share/java and made a
> sym link called just  hamcrest.jar to it.

I don't have a Ubuntu 14 VM handy, but I just got my Ubuntu 16 VM
working again.  Junit doesn't install hamcrest, and python-hamcrest
doesn't either.  The package that does install hamcrest-all.jar is
libhamcrest-java.


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Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Kay Schenk]

On 08/27/2016 06:22 PM, Gav wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:
> 
>> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
>>> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:
>>>
 On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> Hi Don,
>
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Don Lewis 
>> wrote:
>
>> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
>>> junit 4.11 is installed on the new buildbots we are prepping for
>> use
 fwiw
>>
>> We'll also need hamcrest version 1.3.
>>
>
> Ubuntu 14.04 LTS python-hamcrest is version 1.8 , is that too new?
> I'd like to try and stick to what the Ubuntu apt-get packages provide,
> if not possible, alternate uris where we can get other versions from.

 We don't want python-hamcrest.  We just want the hamcrest1.3.jar file.
 I think this is it:
 


>>> ok, in that case should we just not add it as a buildbot buildstep to
>>> download it during a build ?
>>
>> That was something that Damjan suggested as a possibility, but the
>> question was whether ext_sources was an appropriate place to stash it as
>> it is a compiled artifact.
>>
>> Based on this old bug report:
>> , you might
>> want to investigate whether the junit package actually include hamcrest
>> as well.
>>
>>
> I expanded the install /usr/share/java/junit4.jar and saw no evidence of
> hamcrest - and
> the bug you reference is still open, so not fixed I guess :/
> 
> I found where it is being actively developed (junit4 and junit5) on GitHub.
> 
> https://github.com/junit-team/junit4/blob/master/pom.xml
> 
>  Shows that it pulls in hamcrest as a dependency - does that mean it makes
> it available
> for use ? I don't know.

First of all, thank you for all this work, Gav!

If you've got information on the complete pack for Junit4 (4.11), can
you see if ANY hamcrest jar is included? I personally just manually
downloaded hamcrest-core-1.3.jar, put into /usr/share/java and made a
sym link called just  hamcrest.jar to it.


> 
> I'm not really here in a coding capacity but to help get the builds up and
> working on
> new buildbot slaves so we can decomission the old ones. I'll help test the
> builds until
> they work, but I hope that dependencies can be resolved internally in the
> project -
> i.e. I hope someone can work with the github code above or an alternative
> and get
> me something I can just install and move on to the next piece.
> 
> (same with dmake)
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Gav...
> 

-- 

MzK

"God helps those who help themselves."
   -- popular adage

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Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Gav]

Hi.

On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:

> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> > On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:
> >
> >> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> >> > Hi Don,
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Don Lewis 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> >> >> > junit 4.11 is installed on the new buildbots we are prepping for
> use
> >> fwiw
> >> >>
> >> >> We'll also need hamcrest version 1.3.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Ubuntu 14.04 LTS python-hamcrest is version 1.8 , is that too new?
> >> > I'd like to try and stick to what the Ubuntu apt-get packages provide,
> >> > if not possible, alternate uris where we can get other versions from.
> >>
> >> We don't want python-hamcrest.  We just want the hamcrest1.3.jar file.
> >> I think this is it:
> >>  >> all/1.3/hamcrest-all-1.3.jar>
> >>
> >>
> > ok, in that case should we just not add it as a buildbot buildstep to
> > download it during a build ?
>
> That was something that Damjan suggested as a possibility, but the
> question was whether ext_sources was an appropriate place to stash it as
> it is a compiled artifact.
>
> Based on this old bug report:
> , you might
> want to investigate whether the junit package actually include hamcrest
> as well.
>
>
I expanded the install /usr/share/java/junit4.jar and saw no evidence of
hamcrest - and
the bug you reference is still open, so not fixed I guess :/

I found where it is being actively developed (junit4 and junit5) on GitHub.

https://github.com/junit-team/junit4/blob/master/pom.xml

 Shows that it pulls in hamcrest as a dependency - does that mean it makes
it available
for use ? I don't know.

I'm not really here in a coding capacity but to help get the builds up and
working on
new buildbot slaves so we can decomission the old ones. I'll help test the
builds until
they work, but I hope that dependencies can be resolved internally in the
project -
i.e. I hope someone can work with the github code above or an alternative
and get
me something I can just install and move on to the next piece.

(same with dmake)

Thanks

Gav...

Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Don Lewis]

On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:
> 
>> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
>> > Hi Don,
>> >
>> > On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
>> >> > junit 4.11 is installed on the new buildbots we are prepping for use
>> fwiw
>> >>
>> >> We'll also need hamcrest version 1.3.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Ubuntu 14.04 LTS python-hamcrest is version 1.8 , is that too new?
>> > I'd like to try and stick to what the Ubuntu apt-get packages provide,
>> > if not possible, alternate uris where we can get other versions from.
>>
>> We don't want python-hamcrest.  We just want the hamcrest1.3.jar file.
>> I think this is it:
>> > all/1.3/hamcrest-all-1.3.jar>
>>
>>
> ok, in that case should we just not add it as a buildbot buildstep to
> download it during a build ?

That was something that Damjan suggested as a possibility, but the
question was whether ext_sources was an appropriate place to stash it as
it is a compiled artifact.

Based on this old bug report:
, you might
want to investigate whether the junit package actually include hamcrest
as well.


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Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Gav]

On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:

> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> > Hi Don,
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:
> >
> >> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> >> > junit 4.11 is installed on the new buildbots we are prepping for use
> fwiw
> >>
> >> We'll also need hamcrest version 1.3.
> >>
> >
> > Ubuntu 14.04 LTS python-hamcrest is version 1.8 , is that too new?
> > I'd like to try and stick to what the Ubuntu apt-get packages provide,
> > if not possible, alternate uris where we can get other versions from.
>
> We don't want python-hamcrest.  We just want the hamcrest1.3.jar file.
> I think this is it:
>  all/1.3/hamcrest-all-1.3.jar>
>
>
ok, in that case should we just not add it as a buildbot buildstep to
download it during a build ?

Thanks

Gav...

Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Don Lewis]

On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> Hi Don,
> 
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:
> 
>> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
>> > junit 4.11 is installed on the new buildbots we are prepping for use fwiw
>>
>> We'll also need hamcrest version 1.3.
>>
> 
> Ubuntu 14.04 LTS python-hamcrest is version 1.8 , is that too new?
> I'd like to try and stick to what the Ubuntu apt-get packages provide,
> if not possible, alternate uris where we can get other versions from.

We don't want python-hamcrest.  We just want the hamcrest1.3.jar file.
I think this is it:



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Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Gav]

Hi Don,

On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Don Lewis  wrote:

> On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> > junit 4.11 is installed on the new buildbots we are prepping for use fwiw
>
> We'll also need hamcrest version 1.3.
>

Ubuntu 14.04 LTS python-hamcrest is version 1.8 , is that too new?
I'd like to try and stick to what the Ubuntu apt-get packages provide,
if not possible, alternate uris where we can get other versions from.

Thanks

Gav...


>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Gav...

Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Don Lewis]

On 28 Aug, Gav wrote:
> junit 4.11 is installed on the new buildbots we are prepping for use fwiw

We'll also need hamcrest version 1.3.


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Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Gav]

junit 4.11 is installed on the new buildbots we are prepping for use fwiw

Gav...


On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 12:58 AM, Kay Schenk  wrote:

>
>
> On 08/26/2016 04:22 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> > Kay Schenk wrote:
> >> Do you really mean 16.04 LTS? Is there a buildbot setup with this? I
> >> am NOT
> >> a Ubuntu person.
> >
> > Yes, I did mean 16.04 LTS. But I see that end of life for 14.04
> > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases is April 2019, so 5 years and not 3 as
> > it was for earlier Ubuntu LTS versions. This means 14.04 is OK.
> >
> > That said, if our focus is on making a release then we simply need
> > working buildbots. The current setup (pending the dependency fixes) can
> > be satisfactory too. As a rule of thumb, the newer a (Linux) buildbot
> > is, the less compatible produced builds are - which means they can be
> > tested by fewer people.
> >
> > Regards,
> >   Andrea.
>
> Just now I replaced configure.ac with and older version before the
> specific junit and hamcrest version checking. Hopefully this will get
> our current buildbots rolling again.
>
> The major problem with newer buildbots using Ubuntu is the glibc version
> is newer compared to what is used in our "baseline" Linux, which is
> CentOS5, or even, as I discovered CentOS7. SO, I can't test the builds
> using my CentOS 6.8, for example. Newer end user Linux systems would
> probably not have problems.
>
> The good thing about moving to the Ubuntu 14.04 buildbots was our
> capability to install what we needed basically directly vs putting in
> Jira tix to infra.
>
> I'm hoping the buildbots will run OK this evening.
>
> ps. I think Windows is building --without-junit, so we have an
> inconsistency there.
>
>
>
> --
> 
> Kay Schenk
> Apache OpenOffice
>
> "Things work out best for those who make
>  the best of the way things work out."
>  -- John Wooden
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Gav...

Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Kay Schenk]

On 08/26/2016 04:22 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> Kay Schenk wrote:
>> Do you really mean 16.04 LTS? Is there a buildbot setup with this? I
>> am NOT
>> a Ubuntu person.
> 
> Yes, I did mean 16.04 LTS. But I see that end of life for 14.04
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases is April 2019, so 5 years and not 3 as
> it was for earlier Ubuntu LTS versions. This means 14.04 is OK.
> 
> That said, if our focus is on making a release then we simply need
> working buildbots. The current setup (pending the dependency fixes) can
> be satisfactory too. As a rule of thumb, the newer a (Linux) buildbot
> is, the less compatible produced builds are - which means they can be
> tested by fewer people.
> 
> Regards,
>   Andrea.

Just now I replaced configure.ac with and older version before the
specific junit and hamcrest version checking. Hopefully this will get
our current buildbots rolling again.

The major problem with newer buildbots using Ubuntu is the glibc version
is newer compared to what is used in our "baseline" Linux, which is
CentOS5, or even, as I discovered CentOS7. SO, I can't test the builds
using my CentOS 6.8, for example. Newer end user Linux systems would
probably not have problems.

The good thing about moving to the Ubuntu 14.04 buildbots was our
capability to install what we needed basically directly vs putting in
Jira tix to infra.

I'm hoping the buildbots will run OK this evening.

ps. I think Windows is building --without-junit, so we have an
inconsistency there.



-- 

Kay Schenk
Apache OpenOffice

"Things work out best for those who make
 the best of the way things work out."
 -- John Wooden

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Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Andrea Pescetti]

Kay Schenk wrote:

Do you really mean 16.04 LTS? Is there a buildbot setup with this? I am NOT
a Ubuntu person.


Yes, I did mean 16.04 LTS. But I see that end of life for 14.04 
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases is April 2019, so 5 years and not 3 as 
it was for earlier Ubuntu LTS versions. This means 14.04 is OK.


That said, if our focus is on making a release then we simply need 
working buildbots. The current setup (pending the dependency fixes) can 
be satisfactory too. As a rule of thumb, the newer a (Linux) buildbot 
is, the less compatible produced builds are - which means they can be 
tested by fewer people.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Kay Schenk]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Andrea Pescetti 
wrote:

> On 24/08/2016 Kay Schenk wrote:
>
>> Continuing discussion with infra due to EOL on both the systems we are
>> currently using indicates we will probably be moving to Ubuntu 14.04
>> buildbots for Linux 32 and Linux 64. I'll keep you updated.
>>
>
> For the same reason, wouldn't it be better to move to 16.04 LTS actually?
>
> But if this means we'll have broken buildbots for two months then we can
> live with the current ones until the release.
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>

​I didn't copy "dev" on my last question infra -- sorry.

Do you really mean 16.04 LTS? Is there a buildbot setup with this? I am NOT
a Ubuntu person.

The more I thought about this, the more it seemed better to just move to
Ubuntu 14.04 as it would give us better control over what's installed. My
question to them today, was about the 32-bit version of this. I couldn't
identify if a 32-bit buildbot for Ubuntu 14.04 was even available.

I'm assuming at this point they would change the env for our current
buildbot scripts so that wouldn't need to change.I would hope this would be
a quick chageover.

 I will copy "dev" on further communication with "infra".

We can get around the broken buildbot problem now by going back a couple of
revisions when the junit version checking was tweaked up. If we don't get a
resolution by next Wed, I'll make the change.
​




-- 
--
Kay Schenk
Apache OpenOffice

"Things work out best for those who make
 the best of the way things work out."
   -- John Wooden

Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Andrea Pescetti]

On 24/08/2016 Kay Schenk wrote:

Continuing discussion with infra due to EOL on both the systems we are
currently using indicates we will probably be moving to Ubuntu 14.04
buildbots for Linux 32 and Linux 64. I'll keep you updated.


For the same reason, wouldn't it be better to move to 16.04 LTS actually?

But if this means we'll have broken buildbots for two months then we can 
live with the current ones until the release.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Kay Schenk]

[top posting]

Continuing discussion with infra due to EOL on both the systems we are
currently using indicates we will probably be moving to Ubuntu 14.04
buildbots for Linux 32 and Linux 64. I'll keep you updated.

On 08/23/2016 12:19 PM, Kay sch...@apache.org wrote:
> FYI: communication with pono from infra
> 
> 
>  Forwarded Message 
> Subject:  Re: Questions about buildbot internals
> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2016 09:31:45 -0700
> From: Kay sch...@apache.org 
> Reply-To: ksch...@apache.org
> To:   Pono Takamori 
> CC:   infrastruct...@apache.org Infrastructure
> , kay.sch...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 08/23/2016 08:52 AM, Pono Takamori wrote:
>> Q1: Are you talking about during a job or as a one time action? I can
>> get lists of currently installed packages on the linux nodes fairly
>> easily, the windows one will be a bit trickier unless you want to know
>> specific versions of your dependencies.
> I'd be happy with a one time action currently. Yeah, Windows is tricky.
>>
>> Q2:  We can add those 2 jars to the build nodes.  maven 2 should be
>> installed on those boxes, did you need a specific version of it?
> 
> OK, I think whatever is out there now is fine for Maven. So, just
> installing these jars is /usr/share/java should do the trick.
> 
> and, hmmm...we recommend ant 1.9 or later yet it seems what's on the
> Linux32 buildbot is ant 1.8.2 and on Linux-64 it's ant 1.7.1. Time to
> re-edit our configure.ac -- again.
> 
> So, if you could bump the ant version to 1.9.2 on all these that would
> be great. More than 1.9.2 we have problems from my recollection.
> 
> 
>>
>> In regards to puppet, all three of the build nodes that you mentioned
>> are not in puppet since tethys is running Ubuntu 10.04, bb-vm2 is
>> running 12.04 and we do not have any puppet written for windows yet.
> 
> OK, I actually didn't notice that these Linux bots were on different
> Ubuntu versions--gee!
> 
>> We could move the builds to a node with 14.04 so that adding
>> dependencies would be you forking the listed repo and then adding the
>> required dependencies
>> here: 
>> https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-puppet/blob/deployment/data/ubuntu/1404.yaml#L316
> 
> hmmm...let me confer with others and I'll get back to you on this. Can
> you get me a pack list for 14.04 as well?
> 
>>
>> Let me know if you have any other questions,
>> -Pono
> 
> Not right now. Thank you SO much for helping with this. Let's keep in touch!
> 
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 9:32 PM, Kay sch...@apache.org
>> <mailto:sch...@apache.org> > <mailto:ksch...@apache.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Infra--
>> Apache OpenOffice uses the following buildbots:
>> Linux32 : bb-vm2_ubuntu_32bit
>> Linux64: tethys_ubuntu
>> Windows 7: bb-win7
>>
>> Q1: Short of writing a command line entry into our buildbot
>> scripts, is
>> there any way to get a listing of what packs are installed on
>> these systems?
>>
>> Q2: We need the following packs installed on all three of these for
>> automated testing:
>> junit-4.12.jar
>> hamcrest-core-1.3.jar
>>
>> Maybe maven2 also? But I just ran the tests I needed with "ant"
>> which is
>> part of our build requirements.
>>
>> Through private message,  I was sent a link to:
>>  
>> https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-puppet/tree/deployment/modules/build_slaves
>> 
>> <https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-puppet/tree/deployment/modules/build_slaves>
>>
>> as a way of explanation to self-servicing the buildbots, but, not
>> being
>> a puppet guru, I am lost looking at this. Can you describe a basic
>> procedure for me? What type of karma does anyone need? And to what?
>> What's required to upload a new template? Instructions on what
>> should be
>> in the template. How do we initiate pull requests based on the
>> templates, etc?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>   
> 
> 

-- 

Kay Schenk
Apache OpenOffice

"Things work out best for those who make
 the best of the way things work out."
 -- John Wooden

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Fwd: Re: Questions about buildbot internals

[Kay sch...@apache.org]

FYI: communication with pono from infra


 Forwarded Message 
Subject:Re: Questions about buildbot internals
Date:   Tue, 23 Aug 2016 09:31:45 -0700
From:   Kay sch...@apache.org 
Reply-To:   ksch...@apache.org
To: Pono Takamori 
CC: infrastruct...@apache.org Infrastructure
, kay.sch...@gmail.com




On 08/23/2016 08:52 AM, Pono Takamori wrote:
> Q1: Are you talking about during a job or as a one time action? I can
> get lists of currently installed packages on the linux nodes fairly
> easily, the windows one will be a bit trickier unless you want to know
> specific versions of your dependencies.
I'd be happy with a one time action currently. Yeah, Windows is tricky.
>
> Q2:  We can add those 2 jars to the build nodes.  maven 2 should be
> installed on those boxes, did you need a specific version of it?

OK, I think whatever is out there now is fine for Maven. So, just
installing these jars is /usr/share/java should do the trick.

and, hmmm...we recommend ant 1.9 or later yet it seems what's on the
Linux32 buildbot is ant 1.8.2 and on Linux-64 it's ant 1.7.1. Time to
re-edit our configure.ac -- again.

So, if you could bump the ant version to 1.9.2 on all these that would
be great. More than 1.9.2 we have problems from my recollection.


>
> In regards to puppet, all three of the build nodes that you mentioned
> are not in puppet since tethys is running Ubuntu 10.04, bb-vm2 is
> running 12.04 and we do not have any puppet written for windows yet.

OK, I actually didn't notice that these Linux bots were on different
Ubuntu versions--gee!

> We could move the builds to a node with 14.04 so that adding
> dependencies would be you forking the listed repo and then adding the
> required dependencies
> here: 
> https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-puppet/blob/deployment/data/ubuntu/1404.yaml#L316

hmmm...let me confer with others and I'll get back to you on this. Can
you get me a pack list for 14.04 as well?

>
> Let me know if you have any other questions,
> -Pono

Not right now. Thank you SO much for helping with this. Let's keep in touch!

>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 9:32 PM, Kay sch...@apache.org
> <mailto:sch...@apache.org>  <mailto:ksch...@apache.org>> wrote:
>
> Hello Infra--
> Apache OpenOffice uses the following buildbots:
> Linux32 : bb-vm2_ubuntu_32bit
> Linux64: tethys_ubuntu
> Windows 7: bb-win7
>
> Q1: Short of writing a command line entry into our buildbot
> scripts, is
> there any way to get a listing of what packs are installed on
> these systems?
>
> Q2: We need the following packs installed on all three of these for
> automated testing:
> junit-4.12.jar
> hamcrest-core-1.3.jar
>
> Maybe maven2 also? But I just ran the tests I needed with "ant"
> which is
> part of our build requirements.
>
> Through private message,  I was sent a link to:
>  
> https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-puppet/tree/deployment/modules/build_slaves
> 
> <https://github.com/apache/infrastructure-puppet/tree/deployment/modules/build_slaves>
>
> as a way of explanation to self-servicing the buildbots, but, not
> being
> a puppet guru, I am lost looking at this. Can you describe a basic
> procedure for me? What type of karma does anyone need? And to what?
> What's required to upload a new template? Instructions on what
> should be
> in the template. How do we initiate pull requests based on the
> templates, etc?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>   


-- 

Kay Schenk
Apache OpenOffice

"Things work out best for those who make
 the best of the way things work out."
 -- John Wooden

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Re: [QUESTIONS] RE: [ISSUE DISCUSSIONS]

[Hagar Delest]

Le 23/11/2015 01:06, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :

I also have a moderate concern that the Forum community is perhaps too separate 
from the rest of the project and we need a way for all voices to be heard, 
including working out proposals for remedies. In both directions. Any ideas on 
how to facilitate that?

When developers need feedback from the forum users, they can ask on the dev 
mailing list. There are already some power users from the forum who are 
subscribed. This is what happened in the current case. It may be easier to tag 
the object with something like [Forum] so that we spot it more quickly (well, 
talking about myself mainly here...).

What would be the list requirement exactly from the forum users? For example, 
Rory often reports the interesting discussions that can occur in the forum.

Hagar

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[QUESTIONS] Assessing Project Risk Warning Signs

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

[BCC Apache OpenOffice PMC]

It is important for the OpenOffice PMC to identify and assess warning signs
about risks to the project's continuing operation.  It is also important
that the state of the project be shared with and understood by the full
Apache OpenOffice community.  There is much wisdom that the community can
offer.

The last two status reports to the Apache Software Foundation Board have
presented the Chair's identification of warning signs [1, 2].  I am
requesting that the community, participating on this list, review and
consider how to solidify the picture and to consider ways forward.

One way to start this is for individuals to review the last quarterly report
at [1].  Single out a warning sign or area of risk and start a discussion.  

For the assessment of warning signs and risks in the last Board Report

   * If there is disagreement with an assessment item, explain what the
specific, concrete evidence is for confirming there is no concern.

   * If the assessment item is of concern, suggest further specific,
concrete analysis would serve to confirm the risk's presence.  What better
data is called for?

   * Suggestions of other risks and warning signs that are internal to the
operation of the project itself, rather than external matters, are welcome.

With regard to risks, remedies, and risk reduction, perhaps after initial
discussion, also consider

   * What are the most acute risks -- what is a prioritization for
addressing risks?  In particular, a risk that dominates all others is
important to zero in on.

   * What is existing available capacity (including your own) and
capabilities for addressing priority concerns?

I don't want to suggest anything more specific.  I am seeking the community
wisdom in appraising the situation and in organizing the issues.


BACKGROUND MATERIAL

 [1] A full quarterly (July-September) is included in the October 2015 Board
minutes approved at the November 2015 Board Meeting.  An extract of just the
Apache OpenOffice report is available as a text file at
.

 [2] An interim report to the board is included in the September 2015 Board
minutes approved at the November 2015 Board Meeting.  An extract of just the
Apache OpenOffice report is available as a text file at 
.  This information was updated and expanded in
[1].

 [3] Extracts of AOO-related material from all board reports since Apache
OpenOffice became a Top Level Project, including [1] and [2] are collected
at 
.



 -- Dennis E. Hamilton
orc...@apache.org
dennis.hamil...@acm.org+1-206-779-9430
https://keybase.io/orcmid  PGP F96E 89FF D456 628A
X.509 certs used and requested for signed e-mail



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RE: [QUESTIONS] RE: [ISSUE DISCUSSIONS]

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

> -Original Message-
> From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarr...@iol.ie]
> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 14:34
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [QUESTIONS] RE: [ISSUE DISCUSSIONS]
> 
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 09:29:07 -0800
> "Dennis E. Hamilton"  wrote:
> 
> > I remain puzzled about the use of Forums as places to pre-discuss
> issues with proposed resolutions brought to Bugzilla or dev@ to "verify
> consensus."   I can easily be guilty of having not paid attention.  Or
> there is a simple misunderstanding on my part?
> 
> I think you are misunderstanding: A forum is a discussion place, where
> an open discussion, in this context on proposals, can be held.
> Hopefully, after a good discussion, a consensus on improvement can be
> reached and the proposal, which is in the open, may either be adopted by
> a code writer (hopefully a new recruit) or a link  to the forum
> discussion posted back to a Bugzilla thread.
> 
> Note that the general view of less experienced users is that Bugzilla is
> unfriendly - they dislike the need to open a new account, not
> understanding why their Forum account is not valid on Bugzilla.  They
> also often do not have the discipline to write a succinct analysis of
> their problem and regard the tags of "unconfirmed", "won't fix" etc as
> dismissive.
> 
> In my personal view, Bugzilla is adequate for bug fixing, but is not the
> best forum for enhancement proposals.
> 
> Rory
[orcmid] 

Thanks Rory,

I agree that the Bugzilla is very difficult to bring to bear and
conventional users have much difficulty with it.  However, I don't see a
problem with one of the experienced experts, administrators, or
participating devs creating the issue. 

It is also helpful to create the issue early so that people who do start
from or monitor issues have a better picture and won't miss that there is a
companion discussion on the Forum.  
 
My biggest concern is how usability issues are not being captured (and dealt
with) on the Bugzilla, which is not a problem of the forum team and it will
have to be addressed elsewhere.  I don't share the belief that Bugzilla
issues are only about identifiable code defects.  That is a conversation for
a different thread though.

I also have a moderate concern that the Forum community is perhaps too
separate from the rest of the project and we need a way for all voices to be
heard, including working out proposals for remedies.  In both directions.
Any ideas on how to facilitate that?
> 
> 
> >
> > I am very interested in seeing coupling of dev@, users@, Bugzilla, and
> the forums in a way where issues can be addressed and possibly resolved
> after confirmation of understanding.
> >
> > I have questions.
> >
> >  1. Where is it established that the Forum is the preferred place for
> this, sort of out-of-site of the other three places where issues are
> brought to our attention?  How is a member of our public with a concern
> or request informed and guided about this?
> >
> >  2. How has this worked so far?  What are examples of this approach
> bringing issues/resolutions to dev@ and/or Bugzilla that succeeded
> (whatever success means)?
> >
> >  - Dennis
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:orc...@apache.org]
> > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 10:29
> > > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > > Subject: [ISSUE DISCUSSIONS] (was RE: Proposed Calc "Find & Replace"
> > > dialog enhancements)
> > >
> > > I don't understand this.
> > >
> > > Issues are a place to provide a tracked account for something being
> > > worked on with regard to defects, and that includes usability
> matters
> > > and even determination of what the defect is, if any.  It is the
> only
> > > place where there is a single URL and a mailing-list account that
> fits
> > > typical Apache processes.
> > >
> > > I think discussions of these matters on forums is great.  I would
> prefer
> > > there to be stronger bidirectional coupling and easy ways for people
> to
> > > follow links to specific places on the different services.  So if
> > > something starts out on Bugzilla, and there is a Forum discussion
> that
> > > goes with it or is started from it, they should be coupled.
> > >
> > > My concern is that discussions are disconnected from the developers
> who
> > > have to decide on what and how action is to be taken, the users who
> > > report/analyze defect reports, and forum threads which may have
> > > satisfying 

Re: [QUESTIONS] RE: [ISSUE DISCUSSIONS]

[Rory O'Farrell]

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 09:29:07 -0800
"Dennis E. Hamilton"  wrote:

> I remain puzzled about the use of Forums as places to pre-discuss issues with 
> proposed resolutions brought to Bugzilla or dev@ to "verify consensus."   I 
> can easily be guilty of having not paid attention.  Or there is a simple 
> misunderstanding on my part?

I think you are misunderstanding: A forum is a discussion place, where an open 
discussion, in this context on proposals, can be held. Hopefully, after a good 
discussion, a consensus on improvement can be reached and the proposal, which 
is in the open, may either be adopted by a code writer (hopefully a new 
recruit) or a link  to the forum discussion posted back to a Bugzilla thread.  

Note that the general view of less experienced users is that Bugzilla is 
unfriendly - they dislike the need to open a new account, not understanding why 
their Forum account is not valid on Bugzilla.  They also often do not have the 
discipline to write a succinct analysis of their problem and regard the tags of 
"unconfirmed", "won't fix" etc as dismissive.  

In my personal view, Bugzilla is adequate for bug fixing, but is not the best 
forum for enhancement proposals.

Rory

 
> 
> I am very interested in seeing coupling of dev@, users@, Bugzilla, and the 
> forums in a way where issues can be addressed and possibly resolved after 
> confirmation of understanding.  
> 
> I have questions.
> 
>  1. Where is it established that the Forum is the preferred place for this, 
> sort of out-of-site of the other three places where issues are brought to our 
> attention?  How is a member of our public with a concern or request informed 
> and guided about this?
> 
>  2. How has this worked so far?  What are examples of this approach bringing 
> issues/resolutions to dev@ and/or Bugzilla that succeeded (whatever success 
> means)?
> 
>  - Dennis
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:orc...@apache.org]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 10:29
> > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > Subject: [ISSUE DISCUSSIONS] (was RE: Proposed Calc "Find & Replace"
> > dialog enhancements)
> > 
> > I don't understand this.
> > 
> > Issues are a place to provide a tracked account for something being
> > worked on with regard to defects, and that includes usability matters
> > and even determination of what the defect is, if any.  It is the only
> > place where there is a single URL and a mailing-list account that fits
> > typical Apache processes.
> > 
> > I think discussions of these matters on forums is great.  I would prefer
> > there to be stronger bidirectional coupling and easy ways for people to
> > follow links to specific places on the different services.  So if
> > something starts out on Bugzilla, and there is a Forum discussion that
> > goes with it or is started from it, they should be coupled.
> > 
> > My concern is that discussions are disconnected from the developers who
> > have to decide on what and how action is to be taken, the users who
> > report/analyze defect reports, and forum threads which may have
> > satisfying conclusions and simply stop there.  I am all for greater
> > inclusion.  Let's keep the multiple places where the same subject arises
> > connected.
> > 
> > I don't recall the forums being given the prominence that is suggested
> > here.  Should we put FAQ messages on dev@ and users@ describing the
> > desired practice, say monthly?   I assume blogs are not meant as part of
> > this but as other ways of informing the public about something.
> > 
> >  - Dennis
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pesce...@apache.org]
> > > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 15:03
> > > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: Proposed Calc "Find & Replace" dialog enhancements
> > >
> > > On 16/11/2015 Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > > > One or more issues should be opened on Bugzilla as well, with cross-
> > > linking to the Forum thread(s).
> > > > That's important as a matter of governance.  The Forum threads are
> > not
> > > fully part of the governance and accountability structure of the
> > > project.
> > >
> > > The discussion is brought to the Forum as an initial, open, free,
> > > discussion, to gather feedback from users. Decision-making is done on
> > > lists but here we are in a "discovery" phase where we simply ask
> > people
> > > for feedback, and the right channels for thi

Re: [QUESTIONS] How Is Apache OpenOffice Used - Instrumentation

[Andrea Pescetti]

Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

I am not certain that we have the resources to do that.  So this is a 
thought-experiment.


It is a thought-experiment, but it is code we (probably) already have. 
Just, we've now disabled the usage tracking, which was existing (always 
opt-in, never silently enabled by default) before OpenOffice came to 
Apache. You can still find some data on the Wiki. We (probably) don't 
have the server-side processing in the code that is in SVN.


I'm not saying that I consider this to be a priority for development. 
But if one is curious, everything is likely available in our source code 
and on the Wiki somewhere.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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RE: [QUESTIONS] How Is Apache OpenOffice Used - Instrumentation

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I suppose a course estimate is also a coarse one [;<).

If we need to go beyond analyzing what is revealed in reports to the project, 
there remains the prospect for instrumentation.

I am not certain that we have the resources to do that.  So this is a 
thought-experiment.

INSTRUMENTATION

There is no instrumentation of Apache OpenOffice at present.  There is an 
existing path to doing so.  It already provides a crude measurement, if used.  
There are ways that, with adjustment of the software, more useful data could be 
obtained.  Producing and capturing the information involves development work.  
And any collection of such data must be kept anonymous, while recognizing data 
from the same installation.

Instrumentation can require considerable work and large databases for the 
captured information.  There might not be sufficient capacity to undertake any 
degree of instrumentation in the face of higher-priority needs.

The following note is a bit over-engineered.  It is simpler if we do not need 
to differentiate data sources at all, but that might not get us what we need.

How important is knowing what we could find out about usage patterns this way?

  1. Privacy of Data Collection
 It is possible to instrument the software to collect certain data, such as 
the numbers and formats of files opened and saved-as since the previous 
collection of data from a source.  This requires additions to the software to 
accumulate such information and to the servers receiving the request for 
capturing the information.
 Some data might need to be longitudinal, with data captured at different 
times from the same source recognized and combined in some way.  This allows 
quite different patterns of usage to be distinguished and not lumped together 
in a single mass, if that becomes important.
 This means that the source of the data must be anonymized in some manner 
that still allows data from the same copy of Apache OpenOffice to recognized, 
but without recording of anything that allows the captured data to be traced 
back to the originating source. 
 All of this involves substantial careful development.  The means for 
prevention of identifying sources must be carefully managed.  It must also be 
possible to protect the data collection procedure from exploits and denial of 
service attacks.

  2. Update Checking as a Data Source.  When installed copies of Apache 
OpenOffice conduct an automatic or manual check for updates, that is a source 
of information.  Unqualified, it is an indication that an installed copy of the 
software is being used in some manner.  
 Update checks are only useful, however, if pings estimated to be from the 
same installation are distinguishable.  The crudest measure is simply the date 
and time of the latest ping from the same (estimated) source, along with the 
version of Apache OpenOffice being used.  This could be captured without any 
modification of the existing software package. 
 To distinguish sources, it may be necessary to keep a database with up to 
50-100 million records that identifies information from each source without 
revealing that source.  The same principle is needed if additional data is 
provided as part of check-for-update requests from the software.
 Information in the currently-implemented HTTP request can be used to 
estimate when requests are from the same source.  To preserve anonymity of the 
source, that information can be transformed into a cryptographic hash that 
cannot be used to determine the original source but can be used to determine a 
match with a previously-captured ping.  This is a coarse arrangement.

  3. Specific Instrumentation.  If future releases were modified to collect and 
report usage data (with appropriate opt-in as part of the configuration 
set-up), that data could be attached to checks-for-updates when allowed.  To 
accumulate patterns over time, accumulation of data is best tied to user 
profiles.  By generating a statistically-unique cryptographically-random 
identifier as part of each user profile that is initialized, that can be used 
to recognize instrumentation from the same profile.  When the data is 
collected, the identifier is used in making the cryptographic hash in (2) and 
then discarded.  



> -Original Message-
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:orc...@apache.org]
> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 11:50
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: [QUESTIONS] How Is Apache OpenOffice Used (was Apache
> OpenOffice ODF in the Marketplace ...)
> 
> I have changed the topic because Marketplace is misleading -- the AOO
> Project is not so much a participant in a market system.  Yet it is
> useful to determine who our public community is and what the adopters of
> Apache OpenOffice are doing with it.
> 
> We have the statistics below as a course estimate of the size of the
> active AOO community, our public.
> 
> The original q

[QUESTIONS] How Is Apache OpenOffice Used (was Apache OpenOffice ODF in the Marketplace ...)

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I have changed the topic because Marketplace is misleading -- the AOO Project 
is not so much a participant in a market system.  Yet it is useful to determine 
who our public community is and what the adopters of Apache OpenOffice are 
doing with it.

We have the statistics below as a course estimate of the size of the active AOO 
community, our public.

The original question was, how important is ODF to those adopters?

That's an answer that is more likely to be found by asking "What are the 
adopters doing with their copies of Apache OneOffice?  In particular, what 
document formats are they using and to what relative degree?"

We have no way to know that directly at the moment.

There is one immediately-available source.

REPORTS TO US

What we know the most about what folks are doing with Apache OpenOffice comes 
from what the patterns of complaints are.  These can arise in questions to 
lists dev@ and users@, in filing of Bugzilla reports (or commenting on existing 
ones), and in comments on the Community Forums.

We can use those to determine more narrowly on what users on what platforms are 
reporting and what they are reporting about.  This provides evidence of what is 
found to be important enough to make the effort to report.  That is important 
all by itself.  It is a clue to what others may be experiencing and do not 
choose or known to report.  

A subset of these reports may hinge on particular document formats and 
interchange/interoperability experiences with document formats.  My unqualified 
impression is that interchange via Microsoft Office formats will dominate, just 
as Microsoft Windows users are predominant among the population of AOO 
adopters.  It will be interesting to identify the ODF-related matters that also 
come up and what the balance is.

It is not easy to analyze this source mechanically but it is possible to do 
some manual "analytics" of various kinds.

Is this worth doing?

Of what value would digging this information out at an initial level of detail 
be?

We could probably look at a couple of month's data for clues and then examine a 
longer period if it seems profitable.


> -Original Message-
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org]
> Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 22:19
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: [REPORT] Apache OpenOffice ODF in the Marketplace - AOO 4.1.1
> downloads
> 
> Here are updates of the downloads for Apache OpenOffice 4.1.1, now that
> 4.1.2 is being distributed by the mirror system.
> 
> From Sourceforge,
> <http://sourceforge.net/projects/openofficeorg.mirror/files/4.1.1/stats/
> os?dates=2014-08-01+to+2015-11-08>
> 
> Just shy of 50,000,000 downloads.  This number will be exceeded as older
> versions will still continue downloading, although at an ever-decreasing
> rate.
> 
>87.7% for Windows
> 9.0% for Macintosh (0.1% small drop from end of August)
> 3.3% for everything else, including Linux
> 
> For the different countries in the same period (53.6 million for all
> distributions, not just 4.1.1), the breakdown can be found here:
> <http://sourceforge.net/projects/openofficeorg.mirror/files/stats/map?da
> tes=2014-08-01+to+2015-11-09>.
> 
> It is cool that there were 3 to Antartica: 2 for Windows, 1 for
> Macintosh.
> 
>  - Dennis
> 
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org]
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 18:38
> > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > Subject: RE: [DISCUSS] Apache OpenOffice ODF in the Marketplace -
> > Downloading
> >
[ ... ]
> > What is more difficult to determine is what folks are actually doing
> > with Apache OpenOffice.  There may be ways to learn more.
> >
> >  - Dennis
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org]
> > Sent: Friday, September 4, 2015 20:01
> > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > Subject: [DISCUSS] Apache OpenOffice ODF in the Marketplace
> >
> > I had not encountered the topic of "ODF in the market place" with
> regard
> > to status of Apache OpenOffice.  Perhaps I have not been paying
> > attention.
> >
> > I am curious how we might characterize how support for ODF matters to
> > Apache OpenOffice users and various institutions that value support
> for
> > ODF in their reliance on Apache OpenOffice and related software.
> >
> > How can we determine what the influence of ODF is with respect to
> Apache
> > OpenOffice?
> >
> > It strikes me there are two parts to this question.
> >
> >  1. Who are the users of Apache OpenOffice?
> >
> >  2. What are the ways ODF is 

[QUESTIONS] RE: [ISSUE DISCUSSIONS]

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I remain puzzled about the use of Forums as places to pre-discuss issues with 
proposed resolutions brought to Bugzilla or dev@ to "verify consensus."   I can 
easily be guilty of having not paid attention.  Or there is a simple 
misunderstanding on my part?

I am very interested in seeing coupling of dev@, users@, Bugzilla, and the 
forums in a way where issues can be addressed and possibly resolved after 
confirmation of understanding.  

I have questions.

 1. Where is it established that the Forum is the preferred place for this, 
sort of out-of-site of the other three places where issues are brought to our 
attention?  How is a member of our public with a concern or request informed 
and guided about this?

 2. How has this worked so far?  What are examples of this approach bringing 
issues/resolutions to dev@ and/or Bugzilla that succeeded (whatever success 
means)?

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:orc...@apache.org]
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 10:29
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: [ISSUE DISCUSSIONS] (was RE: Proposed Calc "Find & Replace"
> dialog enhancements)
> 
> I don't understand this.
> 
> Issues are a place to provide a tracked account for something being
> worked on with regard to defects, and that includes usability matters
> and even determination of what the defect is, if any.  It is the only
> place where there is a single URL and a mailing-list account that fits
> typical Apache processes.
> 
> I think discussions of these matters on forums is great.  I would prefer
> there to be stronger bidirectional coupling and easy ways for people to
> follow links to specific places on the different services.  So if
> something starts out on Bugzilla, and there is a Forum discussion that
> goes with it or is started from it, they should be coupled.
> 
> My concern is that discussions are disconnected from the developers who
> have to decide on what and how action is to be taken, the users who
> report/analyze defect reports, and forum threads which may have
> satisfying conclusions and simply stop there.  I am all for greater
> inclusion.  Let's keep the multiple places where the same subject arises
> connected.
> 
> I don't recall the forums being given the prominence that is suggested
> here.  Should we put FAQ messages on dev@ and users@ describing the
> desired practice, say monthly?   I assume blogs are not meant as part of
> this but as other ways of informing the public about something.
> 
>  - Dennis
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pesce...@apache.org]
> > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 15:03
> > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Proposed Calc "Find & Replace" dialog enhancements
> >
> > On 16/11/2015 Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > > One or more issues should be opened on Bugzilla as well, with cross-
> > linking to the Forum thread(s).
> > > That's important as a matter of governance.  The Forum threads are
> not
> > fully part of the governance and accountability structure of the
> > project.
> >
> > The discussion is brought to the Forum as an initial, open, free,
> > discussion, to gather feedback from users. Decision-making is done on
> > lists but here we are in a "discovery" phase where we simply ask
> people
> > for feedback, and the right channels for this are the blog and the
> > forum, places where we reach our end-users.
> >
> > Then, in a normal workflow, a proposal should be brought to the dev
> list
> > to verify consensus, and issues opened on Bugzilla to track
> development.
> [orcmid]
> That's my problem.  I'm concerned about "verifying consensus" where
> deliberations are elsewhere.
> >
> > That said, I for one value end result more than the process, so I
> won't
> > insist on where we should take the various steps; but it's sad to see
> > that nothing gets ever posted to the blog, even though we would have
> > materials for posts.
> [orcmid]
> The AOO blog is not exactly an easy thing to create articles for.  It is
> definitely not a place for discussion, unless we more-actively moderate
> comments.
> 
> 
> >
> > Regards,
> >Andrea.
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> 
> 
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Re: QUESTIONS RE: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

[jan i]

On 17 August 2015 at 23:23, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:

> Thanks Tony, this reminds me of some questions that would help us
> understand what is involved.  These questions are anyone knowledgable of
> the current arrangements:
>
> I see four levels of support to wikis and forums:
>
>  1. User Account and Content Administration
> I believe this is handed.  Does anyone believe it is not?
>
this is done by the wiki administrators.

>
>  2. Administering the Running Service
> That is, a server administrator for the service (not necessarily the
> host)
> Is this done?  Do we need a replacement or an expansion here?  What
> are prerequisite qualifications for being able to do this.
>
I do that at the moment. I would strongly suggest at least an expansion.


>
>  3. Administrating the Server that hosts the Service
> I assume this is where one deals with Ubuntu upgrades and such,
> whether the server is real or virtual.
> Is this provided by the project?  Do we need a replacement/expansion
> here from within the project?  Again, what are prerequisite qualifications?
>
Yes it is provided by the project, and actually it is extremely hard to
divided 2 and 3, they are interconnected.

I strongly suggest at least an expansion, also because the project might
have wishes which I would not see, are be able to facilitate (e.g. change
the login
configuration).

Sysadm experience brings you a long way, otherwise it is not hard to read
up on Mediawiki, mysql, ATS and Ubuntu.



>
>  4. I assume hardware IT support is not the business of the project, and
> changing boxes is a different deal.  Yes?
>
It is vm´s and not physical boxes.

At the moment one of the biggest problems is how to recreate them if they
break. Infra nowadays use Puppet for that purpose. The Vms are defined in
puppet2 but
not puppet3.


>
> I suspect this is known.  I don't know if the necessary information is
> anywhere in project materials (haven't looked).
>
It is in the mail archives and on the vms themself.

>
> This is an area of ignorance for me.  I am not raising my hand.  I just
> want to ensure that the necessary requirements are understood and we know
> what is and is not adequately covered.
>
>  - Dennis
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Tony Stevenson [mailto:t...@pc-tony.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 12:54
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum
>
>
>
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2015, at 01:31 PM, jan i wrote:
> > Hi.
> >
> > The AOO Forum vm could do with an upgrade to Ubuntu 14.04 and be defined
> > in
> > the new puppet structure. Defining it in the new puppet structure has the
> > advantage that Infra can roll a new vm in case of problems, and thereby
> > reducing downtime.
> >
> > The AOO Wiki vm is in strong need of a reconfiguration and update (Ubuntu
> > 14.04 see above). Currently there is a ATS running on the same vm in
> > front
> > of the mediawiki (django) application. The ATS veersion is no longer
> > supported by the traffic server project. Running it on a separate vm (or
> > even as the HTPPS proxy) has a lot of merit, but it has not been done.
> >
> > As I am reducing my engagement in the project, this might be a good time
> > for a new maintainer to step up. The actual maintenance is  about 1 hour
> > pr
> > month.
>
> Can I take this opportunity to remind the community that if this service
> fails to be maintained appropriately it will be turned off, or made
> unavailable by Infra until such time it is brought up to date and
> managed.
>
Tony@ I assume you by maintained really think of security, Infra do not
care which
version of e.g. mediawiki the project uses, as long as there are no known
security risks.

>
> AIUI this was the agreement that we had with the project when it was
> handed over to enable you to manage yourselves.
>
I can confirm, that is what I have been told when I started, and how I
handled it.

rgds
jan i.

>
>
> Many thanks,
>
> --
> Tony
>
>
>
> -
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>
>
> -
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>
>

RE: QUESTIONS RE: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Oh, sorry Tony.  I was hoping other on AOO could supply what they know of this 
situation.
 
I was clear that the project has responsibilities for (1) and thank you for 
clarifying (2-3) which appear to be in dangerous shape.  Thanks for clarifying 
that these are AOO responsibilities in particular.

I would like to know who are providing effort in categories (2-3) at the moment 
and also their view of the situation and the required capabilities.

I suppose any retiring incumbents can also specify what the qualifications for 
a successor are and then we can see who is equipped to perform such work.

 - - - - - - -

It seems the next question is to understand the desired state we want for the 
MediaWiki (that's the one?) and the Forums in terms of sustainable operational 
support and what is a roadmap that can get us there.

We also need to look at the most urgent steps and the least that can provide 
relief.

Is that what you see needed at this rather high level?

Finally, assuming it could be done, is there any benefit to Puppet for 
non-Infrastructure usage or are we talking about a regime that is specific to 
operation under ASF Infra?

 - - - - - - -

It should be obvious that I am an Infrastructure dufus.  

Yet I think the AOO community needs to have a clear picture and also awareness 
of the gravity of the support that is required to be provided by the project.

 - Dennis



-Original Message-
From: Tony Stevenson [mailto:t...@pc-tony.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 14:42
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org; orc...@apache.org
Subject: Re: QUESTIONS RE: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 02:23:48PM -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> Thanks Tony, this reminds me of some questions that would help us understand 
> what is involved.  These questions are anyone knowledgable of the current 
> arrangements:
> 
> I see four levels of support to wikis and forums:
> 
>  1. User Account and Content Administration
> I believe this is handed.  Does anyone believe it is not?


How do you mean handled? This function is managed within the two
products by those who manage them already. In other words this is fully
devolved to the AOO PMC to determine how this should be managed.


>  2. Administering the Running Service
> That is, a server administrator for the service (not necessarily the host)
> Is this done?  Do we need a replacement or an expansion here?  What are 
> prerequisite qualifications for being able to do this.


Again this is down to the PMC to determine how to best do this.  Right
now Infra provide a number of VMs for AOO to run the service on. This is
mostly due to significant historical inertia when AOO first joined the
ASF, but also because it is what the PMC wanted to make their lives
easier. 

If you want these to be come more managed by Infra then a significant
number of changes would need to be made to make this happen.  Not least
of which is moving the system into Puppet. This is a non-trivial piece
of work which I'd estimate would take a member of paid staff at least
4-6 weeks to complete (minimum). 


> 
>  3. Administrating the Server that hosts the Service
> I assume this is where one deals with Ubuntu upgrades and such, whether 
> the server is real or virtual.
> Is this provided by the project?  Do we need a replacement/expansion here 
> from within the project?  Again, what are prerequisite qualifications?


Again, due to historical inertia and what I suspect is fear of letting
go in the past (perhaps even now in the present) this element was
handled at the PMC's discretion - with the caveat that Infra would force
an update where required (say SSL vulnerability etc), or if the PMC did
not do it itself the service would be shutdown and the instance shutdown
until such time that the problem had been resolved. 

Right now, I do not believe that these instances are being properly
maintained, and are in need of significant TLC to make them tick along
nicely once more. However, owing to the obscenely difficlut (and in my
opinion frankly ridiculous) setup of the services this is near
impossible to do well. 


>  4. I assume hardware IT support is not the business of the project, and 
> changing boxes is a different deal.  Yes?
 

Correct, the PMC is provided with a number of virtual machines (not
native hardware, just to avoid any confusion).  If you need to move (and
frankly I would push for this very hard) we would need to stand up the
new instances for you, based on an open discussion of your requirements.

Infra are responsible for making sure that the instances are up, and
that the hardware they run is available. 



> I suspect this is known.  I don't know if the necessary information is 
> anywhere in project materials (haven't looked). 
> 
> This is an area of ignorance for me.  


I hope I have helped clarify somewhat. 


--

Many thank

Re: QUESTIONS RE: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

[Tony Stevenson]

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 02:23:48PM -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> Thanks Tony, this reminds me of some questions that would help us understand 
> what is involved.  These questions are anyone knowledgable of the current 
> arrangements:
> 
> I see four levels of support to wikis and forums:
> 
>  1. User Account and Content Administration
> I believe this is handed.  Does anyone believe it is not?


How do you mean handled? This function is managed within the two
products by those who manage them already. In other words this is fully
devolved to the AOO PMC to determine how this should be managed.


>  2. Administering the Running Service
> That is, a server administrator for the service (not necessarily the host)
> Is this done?  Do we need a replacement or an expansion here?  What are 
> prerequisite qualifications for being able to do this.


Again this is down to the PMC to determine how to best do this.  Right
now Infra provide a number of VMs for AOO to run the service on. This is
mostly due to significant historical inertia when AOO first joined the
ASF, but also because it is what the PMC wanted to make their lives
easier. 

If you want these to be come more managed by Infra then a significant
number of changes would need to be made to make this happen.  Not least
of which is moving the system into Puppet. This is a non-trivial piece
of work which I'd estimate would take a member of paid staff at least
4-6 weeks to complete (minimum). 


> 
>  3. Administrating the Server that hosts the Service
> I assume this is where one deals with Ubuntu upgrades and such, whether 
> the server is real or virtual.
> Is this provided by the project?  Do we need a replacement/expansion here 
> from within the project?  Again, what are prerequisite qualifications?


Again, due to historical inertia and what I suspect is fear of letting
go in the past (perhaps even now in the present) this element was
handled at the PMC's discretion - with the caveat that Infra would force
an update where required (say SSL vulnerability etc), or if the PMC did
not do it itself the service would be shutdown and the instance shutdown
until such time that the problem had been resolved. 

Right now, I do not believe that these instances are being properly
maintained, and are in need of significant TLC to make them tick along
nicely once more. However, owing to the obscenely difficlut (and in my
opinion frankly ridiculous) setup of the services this is near
impossible to do well. 


>  4. I assume hardware IT support is not the business of the project, and 
> changing boxes is a different deal.  Yes?
 

Correct, the PMC is provided with a number of virtual machines (not
native hardware, just to avoid any confusion).  If you need to move (and
frankly I would push for this very hard) we would need to stand up the
new instances for you, based on an open discussion of your requirements.

Infra are responsible for making sure that the instances are up, and
that the hardware they run is available. 



> I suspect this is known.  I don't know if the necessary information is 
> anywhere in project materials (haven't looked). 
> 
> This is an area of ignorance for me.  


I hope I have helped clarify somewhat. 


--

Many thanks,
Tony


pgpEMbLdOugGK.pgp
Description: PGP signature

QUESTIONS RE: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Thanks Tony, this reminds me of some questions that would help us understand 
what is involved.  These questions are anyone knowledgable of the current 
arrangements:

I see four levels of support to wikis and forums:

 1. User Account and Content Administration
I believe this is handed.  Does anyone believe it is not?

 2. Administering the Running Service
That is, a server administrator for the service (not necessarily the host)
Is this done?  Do we need a replacement or an expansion here?  What are 
prerequisite qualifications for being able to do this.

 3. Administrating the Server that hosts the Service
I assume this is where one deals with Ubuntu upgrades and such, whether the 
server is real or virtual.
Is this provided by the project?  Do we need a replacement/expansion here 
from within the project?  Again, what are prerequisite qualifications?

 4. I assume hardware IT support is not the business of the project, and 
changing boxes is a different deal.  Yes?

I suspect this is known.  I don't know if the necessary information is anywhere 
in project materials (haven't looked). 

This is an area of ignorance for me.  I am not raising my hand.  I just want to 
ensure that the necessary requirements are understood and we know what is and 
is not adequately covered. 

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Tony Stevenson [mailto:t...@pc-tony.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 12:54
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum



On Fri, 14 Aug 2015, at 01:31 PM, jan i wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> The AOO Forum vm could do with an upgrade to Ubuntu 14.04 and be defined
> in
> the new puppet structure. Defining it in the new puppet structure has the
> advantage that Infra can roll a new vm in case of problems, and thereby
> reducing downtime.
> 
> The AOO Wiki vm is in strong need of a reconfiguration and update (Ubuntu
> 14.04 see above). Currently there is a ATS running on the same vm in
> front
> of the mediawiki (django) application. The ATS veersion is no longer
> supported by the traffic server project. Running it on a separate vm (or
> even as the HTPPS proxy) has a lot of merit, but it has not been done.
> 
> As I am reducing my engagement in the project, this might be a good time
> for a new maintainer to step up. The actual maintenance is  about 1 hour
> pr
> month.

Can I take this opportunity to remind the community that if this service
fails to be maintained appropriately it will be turned off, or made
unavailable by Infra until such time it is brought up to date and
managed. 

AIUI this was the agreement that we had with the project when it was
handed over to enable you to manage yourselves. 


Many thanks,

--
Tony



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Re: Build OO from Source Code: Build Requirement Version and Repository Questions

[Regina Henschel]

Hi Jason,

Jason Marshall schrieb:

Hello

I have reached a relatively advanced stage of the building process and have 
been saving some queries in order to put these into a single e-mail, with an 
awareness that this is a busy mailing list, so hopefully not taking up too much 
of people's time.

I am building OpenOffice from source code on a Windows 7 platform.  All has 
gone smoothly and I am now at the point where I am about to call 'configure'.  
I am aware that the current building guide includes a call to configure which 
in turn includes the following arguments:

--with-dmake-url="http://dmake.apache-extras.org.codespot.com/files/dmake-4.12.tar.bz2";
 \
--with-epm-url="http://www.msweet.org/files/project2/epm-3.7-source.tar.gz"; \



"--with-epm-url" is not necessary on Windows 7 and it should be removed 
in the guide, or it was a wrong building guide you have used. Can you 
please provide the link?



I had assumed that the building guide was up to date, but am aware that dmake 
and epm now have more up to date versions and in the case of dmake, are now 
hosted in a different repository to the URL listed above.  Would my assumption 
therefore be reasonable in assuming that the calls above would work with the 
following URLs, which I believe are the most up to date:



The preconditions on Windows are in such way, that the MSVC Express 9.0 
can be used. But I'm no expert for building.


When you come to ./bootstrap please read the answer from Kay with the 
workaround for the problems I have reported in my recent mail "Bootstrap 
download failures, mainly from 
http://sourceforge.net/projects/oooextras.mirror/files";.


Kind regards
Regina

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Build OO from Source Code: Build Requirement Version and Repository Questions

[Jason Marshall]

Hello
 
I have reached a relatively advanced stage of the building process and have 
been saving some queries in order to put these into a single e-mail, with an 
awareness that this is a busy mailing list, so hopefully not taking up too much 
of people's time.
 
I am building OpenOffice from source code on a Windows 7 platform.  All has 
gone smoothly and I am now at the point where I am about to call 'configure'.  
I am aware that the current building guide includes a call to configure which 
in turn includes the following arguments:
 
--with-dmake-url="http://dmake.apache-extras.org.codespot.com/files/dmake-4.12.tar.bz2";
 \
--with-epm-url="http://www.msweet.org/files/project2/epm-3.7-source.tar.gz"; \
 
I had assumed that the building guide was up to date, but am aware that dmake 
and epm now have more up to date versions and in the case of dmake, are now 
hosted in a different repository to the URL listed above.  Would my assumption 
therefore be reasonable in assuming that the calls above would work with the 
following URLs, which I believe are the most up to date:
 
https://github.com/mohawk2/dmake/archive/DMAKE_4_12_2_2.tar.gz
https://www.msweet.org/files/project2/epm-4.2-source.tar.gz
 
It is also apparent that the versions are now different to those on the 
building guide.  Consequently, would anybody be able to clarify the following:
 
* DMAKE shows the most recent version as being 4_12_2_2; however, is this the 
stable version that should be used with the OpenOffice build?  It is not 
immediately clear from the github respository website, although I aknowledge 
that this may be due to my currently lack of familiarity with github.
* EPM shows the most recent stable version as being 4.2.  Accordingly, will the 
OpenOffice build still function with the newer 4.2 version of EPM?
 
In addition, I am aware that the OpenOffice building guide specifies that '.NET 
Framework 3.5. SP1' should be installed.  Having interrogated my current 
Windows platform through Control Panel, I already have '.NET Framework 4.5.2' 
installed.  My assumption would be that this does the same as version 3.5 SP1, 
meaning that there would be no need to install this also.  Is my assumpotion 
here correct, or does OpenOffice specifically require 3.5 SP1.  I note that the 
information held by Microsoft regarding the .NET Framework 4.5.1 download 
states that it "runs side-by-side with the .NET Framework 3.5 SP1 and earlier 
versions, but performs an in-place update for the .NET Framework 4 and the .NET 
Framework 4.5", which would indicate that perhaps 3.5 SP1 actually is required 
specifically.  As an aside, I have encountered difficulties installing 3.5 SP1, 
both using the bootstrapper, but also when downloading and manually installing 
the full update.  The install process appears to extract files, but then there 
is no further installation, although it appears that the 'Trusted Installer' is 
running in the background, but never seems to complete.  Has anybody 
experienced a similar issue with 3.5 SP1?
 
Thank you for your patience and please accept my apologies if I have asked 
questions that have obvious answers to those with experience of the project.
 
Best regards
 
Jason Marshall 
  

Re: Questions

[Dave Barton]

 Original Message 
From: Alexandro Colorado 
To: Apache OpenOffice Developer 
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 01:52:30 -0500

> On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 1:06 AM, Dave Bridges  wrote:
>
>> None of the free support sites tell you how to ask a question. My
>> questions are:
>> 1. How do I ask a question about Open Office; and
>> 2. When one has two workbooks open does Open Office have a commend such as
>> the Excel arrange so that you can view both simultaneously?
>>
>> Kind regards
>> DAVE BRIDGES
> I recomend using forum.openoffice.org
>
> For your other question each workbook is indeendent from each other, your
> desktop environment might take care of that.

Hi Dave,

Expanding a little on Alexandro's answer.

 1. The "Community Support" page
http://www.openoffice.org/support/index.html#community-support is
linked from the home page. That page displays links to four of the
main support options, each of which has advice about posting
questions and/or reports about the software.

 2. Assuming MS Windows, although other OS (Operating Systems - eg.
Linux, Mac, Solaris, etc.) probably offer a similar function:
  * Minimize all open windows *_except_* the two workbooks.
  * Right click in a vacant area of the OS "Task Bar".
  * From the context (pop-up) menu that opens select "Show windows
side by side".

You are not subscribed to this. If you wish to reply, please post only
to dev@openoffice.apache.org not to me directly.

Regards
Dave

Re: Questions

[Alexandro Colorado]

I recomend using forum.openoffice.org

For your other question each workbook is indeendent from each other, your
desktop environment might take care of that.

On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 1:06 AM, Dave Bridges  wrote:

> None of the free support sites tell you how to ask a question. My
> questions are:
> 1. How do I ask a question about Open Office; and
> 2. When one has two workbooks open does Open Office have a commend such as
> the Excel arrange so that you can view both simultaneously?
>
> Kind regards
> DAVE BRIDGES




-- 
Alexandro Colorado
Apache OpenOffice Contributor
882C 4389 3C27 E8DF 41B9  5C4C 1DB7 9D1C 7F4C 2614

Questions

[Dave Bridges]

None of the free support sites tell you how to ask a question. My questions are:
1. How do I ask a question about Open Office; and
2. When one has two workbooks open does Open Office have a commend such as the 
Excel arrange so that you can view both simultaneously?

Kind regards
DAVE BRIDGES 

Re: Explaining Java (was RE: Java 32) - BASE Questions

[Andrea Pescetti]

On 22/01/2015 Kay Schenk wrote:

On 01/22/2015 09:42 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

1. What happened with regard to the improvements with regard to the
version of HSQLDB used?

We're still using the base of hsqldb 1.8 with patches for use with
  java 7.
See: https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121754


To be precise, as you will read there, we are using an unmodified 
1.8.0.11, but since it was not released as a tarball but just as a SVN 
tag, we actually use 1.8.0.10 and patch it with the few changes needed 
to align the code to 1.8.0.11.



3. Is there any effort at any stage of development to use a local but
non-Java-requiring database?


No.

Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: Explaining Java (was RE: Java 32) - BASE Questions

[Kay Schenk]

On 01/22/2015 09:42 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> Before improving the messages and taking another run at the Java
> explanation on the web site, I ran more tests to be certain I knew
> the circumstances for one of the messages that is tied to SQL
> Exceptions.
> 
> One thing I noticed (which was useful for seeing how the different
> messages arise) is that the default embedded database produced by
> OpenOffice Base is HSQLDB, which is 100% Java-required.
> 
> According to the HSQLDB site, there was collaboration on upgrading
> the version of HSQLDB, <http://hsqldb.org/web/openoffice.html>.
> That's from November 2011 though.
> 
> I have three questions:
> 
> 1. What happened with regard to the improvements with regard to the
> version of HSQLDB used?

We're still using the base of hsqldb 1.8 with patches for use with
 java 7.
See: https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121754

There had been some additional discussion switching to hsql 2.3 but this
has not been done.

See : https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121837


> 2. What happened with regard to being able to make an HSQLDB for
> local use but external to the .ODB file?

I don't recall a discussion like this. Can you provide a reference?

> 3. Is there any effort at any stage of development to use a local but
> non-Java-requiring database?

Not that I'm aware of. We've had requests for other dbs like sqlite but
these were not in-depth discussions of a replacement.

At some point, we do need a more in-depth discussion about Base. Please
feel free to start this if you like.

> 
> This isn't going to matter with regard to immediately cleaning up the
> messages and the explanation on the web site.  I'm just curious
> because Base is a place that might have some relatively isolatable
> maintenance work (or maybe not).

I think you're right about this.

> 
> - Dennis
> 
> -Original Message- From: Dennis E. Hamilton
> [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2015
> 10:39 To: dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: RE: Explaining Java (was
> RE: Java 32)
> 
> I've started working over the six Java-specific messages that are
> produced by AOO and adjusting the localizable explanation at
> <http://openoffice.org/xx/java>.
> 
> WEB SITE QUESTION:
> 
> For page-specific images that I want to include under
> content/xx/java/, can I simply put them in that directory, since they
> are only used by the web page(s) there?
> 
> I am thinking that will work perfectly for localization, because the
> localized versions of those folders can replace the images made from
> screen captures with equivalent ones made from the same-language UI.
> And for starters, copies of the xx/java/ images can continue to be
> used until localization-friendlier ones are supplied.
> 
> Is this a good way to approach this?  Is there different guidance
> with regard to images having such local context?
> 
> - Dennis
> 
> -Original Message- From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.m...@wtnet.de]
>  Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 07:28 To:
> dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: Explaining Java (was RE: Java
> 32)
> 
> Am 12/30/2014 03:54 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton: [ ... ]
>>  I thought the idea was to create
>> openoffice.org/java/index.htm and seed the xx structure from that.
>> Have I misunderstood how that is usually done? 
> 
> I think there was no agreemnt here. However, it's just a commit more
>  when we all agree that this is the best place. Can be done later as
> the page was recently updated by Kay.
> 
>> So, now the several error messages need to be updated.
>> 
>>  Some of the error messages can be essentially unchanged
>> because they happen when the JRE is installed or has been
>> intentionally avoided.  I will put up a suggested list when I am
>> feeling better. 
> 
> That would be great. I'm a bit lost to resolve which text part is 
> combined with what and in which case.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
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  and some loss to even things out."
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RE: Explaining Java (was RE: Java 32) - BASE Questions

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Before improving the messages and taking another run at the Java explanation on 
the web site, I ran more tests to be certain I knew the circumstances for one 
of the messages that is tied to SQL Exceptions.

One thing I noticed (which was useful for seeing how the different messages 
arise) is that the default embedded database produced by OpenOffice Base is 
HSQLDB, which is 100% Java-required.  

According to the HSQLDB site, there was collaboration on upgrading the version 
of HSQLDB, <http://hsqldb.org/web/openoffice.html>.  That's from November 2011 
though.

I have three questions:

 1. What happened with regard to the improvements with regard to the version of 
HSQLDB used?
 2. What happened with regard to being able to make an HSQLDB for local use but 
external to the .ODB file?
 3. Is there any effort at any stage of development to use a local but 
non-Java-requiring database?

This isn't going to matter with regard to immediately cleaning up the messages 
and the explanation on the web site.  I'm just curious because Base is a place 
that might have some relatively isolatable maintenance work (or maybe not).

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] 
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2015 10:39
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: RE: Explaining Java (was RE: Java 32)

I've started working over the six Java-specific messages that are produced by 
AOO and adjusting the localizable explanation at 
<http://openoffice.org/xx/java>.  

WEB SITE QUESTION:

For page-specific images that I want to include under content/xx/java/, can I 
simply put them in that directory, since they are only used by the web page(s) 
there?

I am thinking that will work perfectly for localization, because the localized 
versions of those folders can replace the images made from screen captures with 
equivalent ones made from the same-language UI.  And for starters, copies of 
the xx/java/ images can continue to be used until localization-friendlier ones 
are supplied.  

Is this a good way to approach this?  Is there different guidance with regard 
to images having such local context?

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.m...@wtnet.de] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 07:28
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: Explaining Java (was RE: Java 32)

Am 12/30/2014 03:54 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
[ ... ]
> 
> I thought the idea was to create openoffice.org/java/index.htm and
> seed the xx structure from that.  Have I misunderstood how that is
> usually done?
> 

I think there was no agreemnt here. However, it's just a commit more 
when we all agree that this is the best place. Can be done later as the 
page was recently updated by Kay.

> So, now the several error messages need to be updated.
>
> 
> Some of the error messages can be essentially unchanged because
> they happen when the JRE is installed or has been intentionally
> avoided.  I will put up a suggested list when I am feeling better.
> 

That would be great. I'm a bit lost to resolve which text part is 
combined with what and in which case.

Marcus


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Questions about code reviews and static analysis tools for TU Delft research

[Radjino Bholanath]

Hi,

I'm doing research on code reviews and static analysis tools at the SERG group 
(http://swerl.tudelft.nl/bin/view/Main/WebHome) of the Delft University of 
Technology. Currently, we want to give an overview of the usage of code review 
and static analysis tools in open source projects. Therefore, I would be very 
happy to know a little bit more about how code reviews are used in OpenOffice 
and if (and maybe how) static analysis tools are used. I have a couple of 
questions for anyone willing to answer:

1. Do all developers (contributors and core developers) have to submit a code 
review for every change? I’m asking because many projects only review changes 
made by contributors.
2. Which code review tools are used?
3. Are static analyzers used? If they are used:
a. Is passing the checks of the static analyzers necessary for a change to be 
accepted?
b. Which static analyzers are used?

Thanks,
Radjino

Re: a few questions about FOSS and OpenOffice

[Alexandro Colorado]

Hola Antonio, puedes contactarme por privado para armar una sesion.
Hi Antonio, you can contact me privately to arrange a meetup.

Saludos/Regards.

On 10/27/14, Antonio Cepero  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> First, let me introduce myself by saying that my name is Antonio Cepero,
> from Spain and that I am coursing a Master on Free Software at the UOC
> <http://estudios.uoc.edu/es/masters-universitarios/software-libre/presentacion>.
> One of the works I must do in one of the subjects is an interview with a
> free software project collaborator. I am contacting you because I am an
> OpenOffice user and think it is a very interesting project. I would like to
> know if some OpenOffice collaborator would be kind enough to answer the
> questions found below. I shall be pleased to receive your answers but if
> you do not want to, I would also appreciate to know it.
>
> Yours sincerely,
> Antonio Cepero
>
> Can you state your name, the open source project you collaborate with and
> the tasks you perform?
>
> How long have you been involved with the project?
>
> What were the main reasons that led you to participate in it?
>
> Had you worked on other projects (FOSS) prior to engaging in this? What
> experience led to this collaboration?
>
> Do you currently collaborate with other free software projects? What? What
> work done?
>
> What is your training and experience? Have you worked on projects that are
> not open source?
>
> What influence has had or you think may have this collaboration in your
> professional future?
>
> Thank you for your time answering them
>


-- 
Alexandro Colorado
Apache OpenOffice Contributor
882C 4389 3C27 E8DF 41B9  5C4C 1DB7 9D1C 7F4C 2614

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a few questions about FOSS and OpenOffice

[Antonio Cepero]

Hello,

First, let me introduce myself by saying that my name is Antonio Cepero,
from Spain and that I am coursing a Master on Free Software at the UOC
<http://estudios.uoc.edu/es/masters-universitarios/software-libre/presentacion>.
One of the works I must do in one of the subjects is an interview with a
free software project collaborator. I am contacting you because I am an
OpenOffice user and think it is a very interesting project. I would like to
know if some OpenOffice collaborator would be kind enough to answer the
questions found below. I shall be pleased to receive your answers but if
you do not want to, I would also appreciate to know it.

Yours sincerely,
Antonio Cepero

Can you state your name, the open source project you collaborate with and
the tasks you perform?

How long have you been involved with the project?

What were the main reasons that led you to participate in it?

Had you worked on other projects (FOSS) prior to engaging in this? What
experience led to this collaboration?

Do you currently collaborate with other free software projects? What? What
work done?

What is your training and experience? Have you worked on projects that are
not open source?

What influence has had or you think may have this collaboration in your
professional future?

Thank you for your time answering them

linux desktop integration questions

[Kay Schenk]

Currently, we have 4 desktop integration packs for rpm linux package
management:
* mandriva
* suse
* freedesktop
* redhat

and 1 for deb linux packages
* deb(ian) menus

Some observations about these:

In reality, the "suse" menus are kde3 based in terms of icon locations,
etc, so folks using kde4 experience integration problems.

Does anyone know -- maybe from user list or forum questions --  how often
the mandriva and redhat menus are used/installed?

The freedesktop menus work for both KDE4 and Gnome (2 and above?)

Some debian-based users are now using Gnome and KDE4 desktop environments
and may be  experiencing desktop integration problems as well (need more
information on this one).

In light of this, would it make sense to:
* rename the suse-menus to kde3-menus?
* perhaps delete the mandriva and redhat menus
* provide freedesktop menus for the debian based desktop environments as
well as "deb"
* or finally, provide desktop-integrations as a separate pack the way we do
language packs, so users could pick and choose



-- 
-
MzK

"Nothing will work unless you do."
-- Maya Angelou

Re: Questions

[Dave Barton]

trek...@aol.com wrote:
> This email is written in HTML format. Please enable HTML mode to view this 
> email.

Here is the OP's moderated email in plain text:

I have open office on my computer and this only started today. Every
time I try to open a file - it brings up Filter selection and everyone I
try there is an error. How do I get rid of this so I can open my files I
don't like this? Please hurry I need to open so important files

Thanks Tre


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Questions

[trek752]

This email is written in HTML format. Please enable HTML mode to view this 
email.

Feature request, questions. Send documents as html e-mail.

[Alexandro Colorado]

I wonder how involved would be to set a feature to send documents as
HTML Emails. (not attachments).

I look at this code:
http://opengrok.adfinis-sygroup.org/source/xref/aoo-trunk/main/sfx2/source/dialog/mailmodel.cxx#344

I would need to understand the whole branch better. But if possible
there could be a SaveAsHTML instead, and then send it to the mail
client as content for the email (as opposed to an attachment).

Regards.


-- 
Alexandro Colorado
Apache OpenOffice Contributor
882C 4389 3C27 E8DF 41B9  5C4C 1DB7 9D1C 7F4C 2614

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Re: questions about crash reporting, error report tool

[Kay Schenk]

On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Andrea Pescetti 
wrote:

> On 27/05/2014 Kay Schenk wrote:
>
>> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/CrashReporting
>> is no longer a default in our binaries?
>> Is this correct?
>>
>
> Correct.
>
>
>  Is this the same thing that's called the "Error Report Tool" in the
>> application help?
>>
>
> It is.
>
>
>  The last discussion I could find about this:
>> http://markmail.org/message/dfkrazjvie3gv4cq
>>
>
> Joost mentioned last month on the users list that it would be good to
> bring it back for non-Windows platforms (where it seems to be less
> expensive in terms of archival requirements). I don't know if we can do
> something about it. Context: http://markmail.org/message/hw2qtojdxkmlkw5i
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>

The reason I asked about this primarily was so we could update the
application help with the correct information. So, I think we should go
ahead with this update/removal for now.

I'm not sure how well bringing it back for a specific platform would work
really. (?) The developers more familiar with this aspect would need to
address this.


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-- 
-
MzK

"To be trusted is a greater compliment than being loved."
   -- George MacDonald

Re: questions about crash reporting, error report tool

[Andrea Pescetti]

On 27/05/2014 Kay Schenk wrote:

https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/CrashReporting
is no longer a default in our binaries?
Is this correct?


Correct.


Is this the same thing that's called the "Error Report Tool" in the
application help?


It is.


The last discussion I could find about this:
http://markmail.org/message/dfkrazjvie3gv4cq


Joost mentioned last month on the users list that it would be good to 
bring it back for non-Windows platforms (where it seems to be less 
expensive in terms of archival requirements). I don't know if we can do 
something about it. Context: http://markmail.org/message/hw2qtojdxkmlkw5i


Regards,
  Andrea.

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questions about crash reporting, error report tool

[Kay Schenk]

Looking at current configure options, and what we've setup on buildbots,
it seems the Crash Reporter referenced in this wiki page:

https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/CrashReporting

is no longer a default in our binaries?

Is this correct?

Is this the same thing that's called the "Error Report Tool" in the
application help?

The last discussion I could find about this:
http://markmail.org/message/dfkrazjvie3gv4cq

-- 
-
MzK

"Even a happy life cannot be without a measure of darkness, and
 the word  happy would lose its meaning if it were not
 balanced by sadness.  It is far better (to) take things as they come
 along  with patience and  equanimity."
-- Carl Jung

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Re: Ask OpenOffice #2 Top Questions: Now for the answers....

[Toki]

On 2/28/2014 8:13 AM, Roberto Galoppini wrote:
>

 * The presence of templates that are not Gratis;
 * The presence of templates that are not Libre;
 * Some of the vocabulary used by SourceForge;



 Not sure I understand this, can you please clarify? I'd be happy to 
change

 what could be a source of confusion.



a) One of the misconceptions about FLOSS, is that it is has to be 
gratis. Whilst FLOSS can be sold, the license permits everybody to race 
to the bottom, and offer the software for as close to gratis
 as their economic situation permits. This creates the expectation that 
the software is gratis.


There are some templates that require a payment to the creator, or other 
third party. In some instances, that is made clear during the 
downloading process.  In most instances, it is clear only after
careful study of the licensing portion of the template. The payment 
usually, but not always goes to a third party --- neither The Apache 
Foundation, nor the creator of the template.


b) Being an Apache Foundation project, my expectation is that templates 
be distributed under an Apache Licence. That is not the case. Instead, 
they range the gamut from BSD through proprietary licenses that are 
adamantly non-Libre.
 (The licenses fail Open Software Foundation, Free Software Foundation, 
and Debian Legal criteria for what constitutes a Libre licence


What would be helpful, would be if for each template:
* The license that it is distributed is clearly, and _accurately_ displayed;
* The cost, if any, is clearly displayed;
prior to downloading the template.

FWIW, the same thing also applies to extensions.


jonathon






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Re: Ask OpenOffice #2 Top Questions: Now for the answers....

[Kay Schenk]

On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

> On 27/02/2014 Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> Time to wrap this up.   I've gone through the 275 questions from 430
>> users and picked out the top ones.
>>
>
> I don't see very interesting questions in this top 10. Indeed, some are
> misplaced and some can only be answered in a generic way. I'm commenting on
> some of them below.
>
>
>  1) How can it be Microsoft is a platinum sponsor of Apache when
>> OpenOffice is competing with MS Office?
>> Rob:  This is an odd question to ask us, but I suppose we can explain
>> how the ASF is a foundation that supports many (100+) open source
>> projects and that a sponsor of AOO does not necessarily participate or
>> endorse every project at Apache.  But again, this is an odd question
>> for us.  Maybe we can pass it off to Ross Gardler for a better answer?
>>
>
> It would also be important to point out the Apache policy of not paying
> for developers, just to put in context that donations do not necessarily
> result in possibilities to influence the product development. Of course, we
> should also add that it is possible to sponsor individual developers to get
> a particular feature developed for OpenOffice, and possibly integrated in
> the official sources.
>
>  2)  A series of questions on proposed features and how we decide on
>> new features, including: ...
>>
>> Rob:  I thought we'd lump these all together and give an in-depth
>> response about how features and bug fixes are prioritized in a
>> volunteer-led open source project at Apache.
>>
>
> I agree, even though some features, for examples the upcoming .docx
> export, might be worth some specific coverage.
>
>  4) What are some of the most interesting features in OpenOffice that
>> most users don't know even exist?
>> But maybe we can nominate 4 or 5 "hidden features" or "underused
>> features" that users might not know about?
>>
>
> File - Versions is a good candidate.
>
>
>  6) Are there backdoors or spyware in Apache OpenOffice?
>> Rob:  Like we'd tell you if there were? ;-)But seriously, this
>> could be a topic of a standalone blog post, and maybe we should do
>> that.  We could discuss open source security, how we handle
>> vulnerability reports and the advantage of open source transparency
>> for preventing back doors.
>>
>
> And we should also point out that, even though it is difficult, we try to
> protect users by enforcing our trademarks with search engines.
>
>
>  9) What is being done to have openoffice return to be the default
>> suite in linux distributions?
>> Rob:  Anyone have an answer for this one?
>>
>
> It's good that this gets interest. I must say that efforts are mostly
> stalled, but that an easier alternative is much more feasible, i.e.,
> maintaining repositories that make it easy for Linux users to install
> OpenOffice on their system, without the need to use the terminal.
>
There are some uncoordinated efforts at the moment and it is much easier to
> consolidate them and start with this approach rather than comply with the
> different distribution policies. Basically, we can address users first and
> distributions later.
>

 Maybe we could start a separate thread on just this issue -- Linux
installs without the need for terminal. By his I think you mean complete
command line installation but I'm not sure. I agree wholeheartedly with
your objective here.


> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>
>
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-- 
-
MzK

"Cats do not have to be shown how to have a good time,
 for they are unfailing ingenious in that respect."
   -- James Mason

Re: Ask OpenOffice #2 Top Questions: Now for the answers....

[Andrea Pescetti]

On 27/02/2014 Rob Weir wrote:

Time to wrap this up.   I've gone through the 275 questions from 430
users and picked out the top ones.


I don't see very interesting questions in this top 10. Indeed, some are 
misplaced and some can only be answered in a generic way. I'm commenting 
on some of them below.



1) How can it be Microsoft is a platinum sponsor of Apache when
OpenOffice is competing with MS Office?
Rob:  This is an odd question to ask us, but I suppose we can explain
how the ASF is a foundation that supports many (100+) open source
projects and that a sponsor of AOO does not necessarily participate or
endorse every project at Apache.  But again, this is an odd question
for us.  Maybe we can pass it off to Ross Gardler for a better answer?


It would also be important to point out the Apache policy of not paying 
for developers, just to put in context that donations do not necessarily 
result in possibilities to influence the product development. Of course, 
we should also add that it is possible to sponsor individual developers 
to get a particular feature developed for OpenOffice, and possibly 
integrated in the official sources.



2)  A series of questions on proposed features and how we decide on
new features, including: ...
Rob:  I thought we'd lump these all together and give an in-depth
response about how features and bug fixes are prioritized in a
volunteer-led open source project at Apache.


I agree, even though some features, for examples the upcoming .docx 
export, might be worth some specific coverage.



4) What are some of the most interesting features in OpenOffice that
most users don't know even exist?
But maybe we can nominate 4 or 5 "hidden features" or "underused
features" that users might not know about?


File - Versions is a good candidate.


6) Are there backdoors or spyware in Apache OpenOffice?
Rob:  Like we'd tell you if there were? ;-)But seriously, this
could be a topic of a standalone blog post, and maybe we should do
that.  We could discuss open source security, how we handle
vulnerability reports and the advantage of open source transparency
for preventing back doors.


And we should also point out that, even though it is difficult, we try 
to protect users by enforcing our trademarks with search engines.



9) What is being done to have openoffice return to be the default
suite in linux distributions?
Rob:  Anyone have an answer for this one?


It's good that this gets interest. I must say that efforts are mostly 
stalled, but that an easier alternative is much more feasible, i.e., 
maintaining repositories that make it easy for Linux users to install 
OpenOffice on their system, without the need to use the terminal. There 
are some uncoordinated efforts at the moment and it is much easier to 
consolidate them and start with this approach rather than comply with 
the different distribution policies. Basically, we can address users 
first and distributions later.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: Ask OpenOffice #2 Top Questions: Now for the answers....

[Kay Schenk]

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:

> Time to wrap this up.   I've gone through the 275 questions from 430
> users and picked out the top ones.  I dropped the ones that repeated
> questions we already answered in our last iteration of this.  I also
> combined questions where there were duplicates or repetitions.  In
> some cases I reworded questions for clarity.
>
> Here's the "top 10", with some partial responses on a few of them.
> I'll need your help to craft responses for all of them.
>
>
> ---
>
> 1) How can it be Microsoft is a platinum sponsor of Apache when
> OpenOffice is competing with MS Office?
>
>
> Rob:  This is an odd question to ask us, but I suppose we can explain
> how the ASF is a foundation that supports many (100+) open source
> projects and that a sponsor of AOO does not necessarily participate or
> endorse every project at Apache.  But again, this is an odd question
> for us.  Maybe we can pass it off to Ross Gardler for a better answer?
>
> ---
>
> 2)  A series of questions on proposed features and how we decide on
> new features, including:
>
> a) Is it possible to include a 'Track Change' feature in OpenOffice
> like the one in MS Word?
>
> b) When will OpenOffice be able to support saving in (.doc) for
> Microsoft Word 2012-2014?
>
> c) Does Open Office plan to add capability to print out marginal
> comments/notes on the document page where they appear instead of as a
> separate list at the end of the document?"
>
> d) Will OpenOffice users be able to import a "PDF" file, update it,
> and export the updated file?
>
>
> e) How does you decide what features to put into OpenOffice?
>
> f) What is the average time it takes you to fix a bug? add a new feature?
>
> Rob:  I thought we'd lump these all together and give an in-depth
> response about how features and bug fixes are prioritized in a
> volunteer-led open source project at Apache.
>
> ---
>
>
> 3) What are the long term support and development plans for OpenOffice?
>
> Rob: This is an opportunity for us to state our practice of supporting
> version N and N-1 and point to the consultants page where users can
> find those who can offer longer term support.
>
> ---
>
> 4) What are some of the most interesting features in OpenOffice that
> most users don't know even exist?
>
> Rob:  It seems most users don't know how to use word competition ;-)
> But maybe we can nominate 4 or 5 "hidden features" or "underused
> features" that users might not know about?
>
> ---
>
>
> 5) What's being done to help realise the universal OpenDocument dream?
>
> Rob: We have some material here from our Document Freedom Day blog
> post, talking about project members who are also active in the OASIS
> ODF TC and the standardization effort.
>
> ---
>
>
> 6) Are there backdoors or spyware in Apache OpenOffice?
>
> Rob:  Like we'd tell you if there were? ;-)But seriously, this
> could be a topic of a standalone blog post, and maybe we should do
> that.  We could discuss open source security, how we handle
> vulnerability reports and the advantage of open source transparency
> for preventing back doors.
>
> ---
>
> 7) How many volunteers work on OpenOffice?
>
> Rob:  We can discuss the various kinds of volunteers in different
> areas and get some stats.
>
> ---
>
>
> 8) Does it cost anything to upload a template online?
>
> Rob: No.  Odd that this questions got so many votes.  Any ideas on why
> this is a question?
>
> ---
>
> 9) What is being done to have openoffice return to be the default
> suite in linux distributions?
>
> Rob:  Anyone have an answer for this one?
>

Another item that probably deserves a much longer explanation/blog etc.
Currently, we have volunteers working on integration with *some* distros --
notably Fedora. So, the short answer would be to mention this. And, further
explain that with so many Linux distros, we've taken a more generic
approach to providing a Linux client for Apache OpenOffice.

We should provide information on how we build  the Linux clients now, and
include information on the "standard" freedesktop desktop interface. This
is used by ANY distro that uses gnome (including Unity) or kde.

 Additionally, we should  e

Re: Ask OpenOffice #2 Top Questions: Now for the answers....

[Roberto Galoppini]

2014-02-28 0:46 GMT+01:00 Jonathon :

>
>
> On February 27, 2014 2:54:26 PM PST, "Marcus (OOo)"  wrote:
>
> >>> 8) Does it cost anything to upload a template online?
> >>> Rob: No. Odd that this questions got so many votes. Any ideas on why
>  this is a question?
> >Marcus: No, absolutely not. There is nothing on the Sourceforge hosted
> webpages that would point into this direction. Combine the answer with
> extensions as it would be the next question.
>
> My guess is that it is a combination of:
> * Unclear instructions on how to upload a template to be used by AOo;
>

Guess here we can improve our messaging.


> * The presence of templates that are not Gratis;
> * The presence of templates that are not Libre;
> * Some of the vocabulary used by SourceForge;
>

Not sure I understand this, can you please clarify? I'd be happy to change
what could be a source of confusion.

Thanks,

Roberto



>
> jonathon
> --
> Your language. Your documents. Your way.
>
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>
>

Re: Ask OpenOffice #2 Top Questions: Now for the answers....

[Oliver-Rainer Wittmann]

Hi,

On 27.02.2014 23:54, Marcus (OOo) wrote:

Am 02/27/2014 11:00 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk:



On 02/27/2014 10:02 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

Time to wrap this up. I've gone through the 275 questions from 430
users and picked out the top ones. I dropped the ones that repeated
questions we already answered in our last iteration of this. I also
combined questions where there were duplicates or repetitions. In
some cases I reworded questions for clarity.

Here's the "top 10", with some partial responses on a few of them.
I'll need your help to craft responses for all of them.


---

1) How can it be Microsoft is a platinum sponsor of Apache when
OpenOffice is competing with MS Office?


Rob: This is an odd question to ask us, but I suppose we can explain
how the ASF is a foundation that supports many (100+) open source
projects and that a sponsor of AOO does not necessarily participate or
endorse every project at Apache. But again, this is an odd question
for us. Maybe we can pass it off to Ross Gardler for a better answer?


Marcus: Or any other Apache member as I don't see us alone to provide an
answer.


---

2) A series of questions on proposed features and how we decide on
new features, including:

a) Is it possible to include a 'Track Change' feature in OpenOffice
like the one in MS Word?


Marcus: Looks like the user has not yet found the "Changes" function in
the Edit menu.



Please keep in mind that the 'Change Tracking' in OpenOffice Writer does 
not support as much as the one in Microsoft Word does.



b) When will OpenOffice be able to support saving in (.doc) for
Microsoft Word 2012-2014?


Marcus: Depends on how the progress of the OSBA code is going. Maybe
Oliver or Juergen can tell more?



The OSBA code does not contain any general framework for the export to 
the Microsoft Word *.docx file format.



c) Does Open Office plan to add capability to print out marginal
comments/notes on the document page where they appear instead of as a
separate list at the end of the document?"


Marcus: When you define a page as Letter or DIN A4, then comments are
shown outside of this as there is still space on the monitor. However, I
don't know how to do the same when printing on paper. ;-)



We need to provide some glue and some extra paper downloadable on our 
website ;-)


jokes aside: there are existing solutions - just look around.


Best regards, Oliver.


d) Will OpenOffice users be able to import a "PDF" file, update it,
and export the updated file?


Marcus: First we should discuss if we want this as it would be a big
implementation effort. If so we would rise to another full-featured PDF
editor, beside Adobe.


e) How does you decide what features to put into OpenOffice?

f) What is the average time it takes you to fix a bug? add a new
feature?

Rob: I thought we'd lump these all together and give an in-depth
response about how features and bug fixes are prioritized in a
volunteer-led open source project at Apache.


Marcus: IMHO it doesn't make sense to give 2 numbers. Every bug and
feature is different and its fix/implemenation depends on so many
factors that knowing just the number is senseless. It would be valid for
a specific type of bugs/features. Others can look very similar but needs
to be treated totally different in the code. It would be hard to explain
to an average user.


The PDF question seems like a much larger animal than some of the others
to me. Probably on par with b) -- on a larger scale maybe.

It may need a larger/longer explanation on its own.


Armin has provided an interesting answer in the meantime.


---


3) What are the long term support and development plans for OpenOffice?

Rob: This is an opportunity for us to state our practice of supporting
version N and N-1 and point to the consultants page where users can
find those who can offer longer term support.


Marcus: To refer to the consultants is a good idea. I don't think that
we would have enough ressources to do it on our own.


---

4) What are some of the most interesting features in OpenOffice that
most users don't know even exist?

Rob: It seems most users don't know how to use word competition ;-)
But maybe we can nominate 4 or 5 "hidden features" or "underused
features" that users might not know about?


Marcus: The AutoCorrect feature (see menu "Tools - AutoCorrect Options"
is also a hidden feature - or should I say highly misunderstood?

Furthermore, some words about the spell check and that we don't do them
on our own but rely on extension. This could maybe hel pto avoid
requests like "This and that word is wrong - please fit it".


---


5) What's being done to help realise the universal OpenDocument

Re: Ask OpenOffice #2 Top Questions: Now for the answers....

[Jürgen Schmidt]

On 2/27/14 11:54 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
> Am 02/27/2014 11:00 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk:
>>
>>
>> On 02/27/2014 10:02 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>> Time to wrap this up. I've gone through the 275 questions from 430
>>> users and picked out the top ones. I dropped the ones that repeated
>>> questions we already answered in our last iteration of this. I also
>>> combined questions where there were duplicates or repetitions. In
>>> some cases I reworded questions for clarity.
>>>
>>> Here's the "top 10", with some partial responses on a few of them.
>>> I'll need your help to craft responses for all of them.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> 1) How can it be Microsoft is a platinum sponsor of Apache when
>>> OpenOffice is competing with MS Office?
>>>
>>>
>>> Rob: This is an odd question to ask us, but I suppose we can explain
>>> how the ASF is a foundation that supports many (100+) open source
>>> projects and that a sponsor of AOO does not necessarily participate or
>>> endorse every project at Apache. But again, this is an odd question
>>> for us. Maybe we can pass it off to Ross Gardler for a better answer?
> 
> Marcus: Or any other Apache member as I don't see us alone to provide an
> answer.
> 
>>> ---
>>>
>>> 2) A series of questions on proposed features and how we decide on
>>> new features, including:
>>>
>>> a) Is it possible to include a 'Track Change' feature in OpenOffice
>>> like the one in MS Word?
> 
> Marcus: Looks like the user has not yet found the "Changes" function in
> the Edit menu.
> 
>>> b) When will OpenOffice be able to support saving in (.doc) for
>>> Microsoft Word 2012-2014?
> 
> Marcus: Depends on how the progress of the OSBA code is going. Maybe
> Oliver or Juergen can tell more?

This has nothing to do with the OSBA code. We have merged parts of the
code and Oliver improved the code for one use case to make it working
generally. The OSBA patches have to be analyzed and integrated but often
are incomplete and not easy to apply. A lot of work where it seems
nobody is really interested in.
As mentioned earlier an improved OOXML support (import/export) is one of
our high priorities from an IBM perspective and we will continue to
drive this effort forward. But it is an ongoing effort and hard to say
when it is good enough for production. But we will try to provide
numbers about the coverage in the near future ...

I personally would always prefer ODF ;-)

Juergen

> 
>>> c) Does Open Office plan to add capability to print out marginal
>>> comments/notes on the document page where they appear instead of as a
>>> separate list at the end of the document?"
> 
> Marcus: When you define a page as Letter or DIN A4, then comments are
> shown outside of this as there is still space on the monitor. However, I
> don't know how to do the same when printing on paper. ;-)
> 
>>> d) Will OpenOffice users be able to import a "PDF" file, update it,
>>> and export the updated file?
> 
> Marcus: First we should discuss if we want this as it would be a big
> implementation effort. If so we would rise to another full-featured PDF
> editor, beside Adobe.
> 
>>> e) How does you decide what features to put into OpenOffice?
>>>
>>> f) What is the average time it takes you to fix a bug? add a new
>>> feature?
>>>
>>> Rob: I thought we'd lump these all together and give an in-depth
>>> response about how features and bug fixes are prioritized in a
>>> volunteer-led open source project at Apache.
> 
> Marcus: IMHO it doesn't make sense to give 2 numbers. Every bug and
> feature is different and its fix/implemenation depends on so many
> factors that knowing just the number is senseless. It would be valid for
> a specific type of bugs/features. Others can look very similar but needs
> to be treated totally different in the code. It would be hard to explain
> to an average user.
> 
>> The PDF question seems like a much larger animal than some of the others
>> to me. Probably on par with b) -- on a larger scale maybe.
>>
>> It may need a larger/longer explanation on its own.
> 
> Armin has provided an interesting answer in the meantime.
> 
>>> ---
>>>
>>>
>>> 3) What are the long term support and development plans for OpenOffice?
>>>
>>> Rob: This is an opportunity for us to

Re: Ask OpenOffice #2 Top Questions: Now for the answers....

[Dave Fisher]

On Feb 27, 2014, at 2:28 PM, Armin Le Grand wrote:

> On 27.02.2014 15:00, Kay Schenk wrote:
>> 
>> ---
>>> 
>>> 2)  A series of questions on proposed features and how we decide on
>>> new features, including:
>>> 
>>> a) Is it possible to include a 'Track Change' feature in OpenOffice
>>> like the one in MS Word?
>>> 
>>> b) When will OpenOffice be able to support saving in (.doc) for
>>> Microsoft Word 2012-2014?
>>> 
>>> c) Does Open Office plan to add capability to print out marginal
>>> comments/notes on the document page where they appear instead of as a
>>> separate list at the end of the document?"
>>> 
>>> d) Will OpenOffice users be able to import a "PDF" file, update it,
>>> and export the updated file?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> e) How does you decide what features to put into OpenOffice?
>>> 
>>> f) What is the average time it takes you to fix a bug? add a new feature?
>>> 
>>> Rob:  I thought we'd lump these all together and give an in-depth
>>> response about how features and bug fixes are prioritized in a
>>> volunteer-led open source project at Apache.
>> 
>> The PDF question seems like a much larger animal than some of the others to 
>> me. Probably on par with b) -- on a larger scale maybe.
>> 
>> It may need a larger/longer explanation on its own.
> 
> I see two reasons we do not have that 'roundtrip':
> 
> (1) The PDF exporter needs to work Page-oriented since PDF is. That is the 
> main reason the import was implemented originally for draw format, not for 
> Writer. When importing to Writer, the Page breaks would not be guaranteed. 
> Also the imported text is not 'floating' text in the classical sense of a 
> Writer paragraph - this was AFAIK not possible with the import method chosen. 
> Thus it would not behave well in Writer when you klick somewhere in such a 
> imported document and start writing.
> 
> (2) There are enough (even free) programs that add 'overlay' to PDF, e.g. for 
> signing documents, so this is not needed to be done by AOO, too.

I am giving two presentations at Apachecon. One of these is about Osmosis a 
tool my team at work developed that converts PDFs to editable PowerPoint and 
HTML5 files. It uses Apache PDFBox and Apache POI. My hope is that this can 
become a software grant, currently preparing to jump through the necessary 
corporate hoops.

Regards,
Dave

> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
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Re: Ask OpenOffice #2 Top Questions: Now for the answers....

[Jonathon]

On February 27, 2014 2:54:26 PM PST, "Marcus (OOo)"  wrote:

>>> 8) Does it cost anything to upload a template online?
>>> Rob: No. Odd that this questions got so many votes. Any ideas on why  this 
>>> is a question?
>Marcus: No, absolutely not. There is nothing on the Sourceforge hosted 
>webpages that would point into this direction. Combine the answer with 
>extensions as it would be the next question.

My guess is that it is a combination of:
* Unclear instructions on how to upload a template to be used by AOo;
* The presence of templates that are not Gratis;
* The presence of templates that are not Libre;
* Some of the vocabulary used by SourceForge;

jonathon
-- 
Your language. Your documents. Your way.

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Re: Ask OpenOffice #2 Top Questions: Now for the answers....

[Marcus (OOo)]

Am 02/27/2014 11:00 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk:



On 02/27/2014 10:02 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

Time to wrap this up. I've gone through the 275 questions from 430
users and picked out the top ones. I dropped the ones that repeated
questions we already answered in our last iteration of this. I also
combined questions where there were duplicates or repetitions. In
some cases I reworded questions for clarity.

Here's the "top 10", with some partial responses on a few of them.
I'll need your help to craft responses for all of them.


---

1) How can it be Microsoft is a platinum sponsor of Apache when
OpenOffice is competing with MS Office?


Rob: This is an odd question to ask us, but I suppose we can explain
how the ASF is a foundation that supports many (100+) open source
projects and that a sponsor of AOO does not necessarily participate or
endorse every project at Apache. But again, this is an odd question
for us. Maybe we can pass it off to Ross Gardler for a better answer?


Marcus: Or any other Apache member as I don't see us alone to provide an 
answer.



---

2) A series of questions on proposed features and how we decide on
new features, including:

a) Is it possible to include a 'Track Change' feature in OpenOffice
like the one in MS Word?


Marcus: Looks like the user has not yet found the "Changes" function in 
the Edit menu.



b) When will OpenOffice be able to support saving in (.doc) for
Microsoft Word 2012-2014?


Marcus: Depends on how the progress of the OSBA code is going. Maybe 
Oliver or Juergen can tell more?



c) Does Open Office plan to add capability to print out marginal
comments/notes on the document page where they appear instead of as a
separate list at the end of the document?"


Marcus: When you define a page as Letter or DIN A4, then comments are 
shown outside of this as there is still space on the monitor. However, I 
don't know how to do the same when printing on paper. ;-)



d) Will OpenOffice users be able to import a "PDF" file, update it,
and export the updated file?


Marcus: First we should discuss if we want this as it would be a big 
implementation effort. If so we would rise to another full-featured PDF 
editor, beside Adobe.



e) How does you decide what features to put into OpenOffice?

f) What is the average time it takes you to fix a bug? add a new feature?

Rob: I thought we'd lump these all together and give an in-depth
response about how features and bug fixes are prioritized in a
volunteer-led open source project at Apache.


Marcus: IMHO it doesn't make sense to give 2 numbers. Every bug and 
feature is different and its fix/implemenation depends on so many 
factors that knowing just the number is senseless. It would be valid for 
a specific type of bugs/features. Others can look very similar but needs 
to be treated totally different in the code. It would be hard to explain 
to an average user.



The PDF question seems like a much larger animal than some of the others
to me. Probably on par with b) -- on a larger scale maybe.

It may need a larger/longer explanation on its own.


Armin has provided an interesting answer in the meantime.


---


3) What are the long term support and development plans for OpenOffice?

Rob: This is an opportunity for us to state our practice of supporting
version N and N-1 and point to the consultants page where users can
find those who can offer longer term support.


Marcus: To refer to the consultants is a good idea. I don't think that 
we would have enough ressources to do it on our own.



---

4) What are some of the most interesting features in OpenOffice that
most users don't know even exist?

Rob: It seems most users don't know how to use word competition ;-)
But maybe we can nominate 4 or 5 "hidden features" or "underused
features" that users might not know about?


Marcus: The AutoCorrect feature (see menu "Tools - AutoCorrect Options" 
is also a hidden feature - or should I say highly misunderstood?


Furthermore, some words about the spell check and that we don't do them 
on our own but rely on extension. This could maybe hel pto avoid 
requests like "This and that word is wrong - please fit it".



---


5) What's being done to help realise the universal OpenDocument dream?

Rob: We have some material here from our Document Freedom Day blog
post, talking about project members who are also active in the OASIS
ODF TC and the standardization effort.

---


6) Are there backdoors or spyware in Apache OpenOffice?

Rob: Like we'd tell you if there were? ;-) But seriously, this
could be a topic of a standalone blog post, and maybe we should do
that. We could discuss open source

Re: Ask OpenOffice #2 Top Questions: Now for the answers....

[Armin Le Grand]

On 27.02.2014 15:00, Kay Schenk wrote:


---


2)  A series of questions on proposed features and how we decide on
new features, including:

a) Is it possible to include a 'Track Change' feature in OpenOffice
like the one in MS Word?

b) When will OpenOffice be able to support saving in (.doc) for
Microsoft Word 2012-2014?

c) Does Open Office plan to add capability to print out marginal
comments/notes on the document page where they appear instead of as a
separate list at the end of the document?"

d) Will OpenOffice users be able to import a "PDF" file, update it,
and export the updated file?


e) How does you decide what features to put into OpenOffice?

f) What is the average time it takes you to fix a bug? add a new 
feature?


Rob:  I thought we'd lump these all together and give an in-depth
response about how features and bug fixes are prioritized in a
volunteer-led open source project at Apache.


The PDF question seems like a much larger animal than some of the 
others to me. Probably on par with b) -- on a larger scale maybe.


It may need a larger/longer explanation on its own.


I see two reasons we do not have that 'roundtrip':

(1) The PDF exporter needs to work Page-oriented since PDF is. That is 
the main reason the import was implemented originally for draw format, 
not for Writer. When importing to Writer, the Page breaks would not be 
guaranteed. Also the imported text is not 'floating' text in the 
classical sense of a Writer paragraph - this was AFAIK not possible with 
the import method chosen. Thus it would not behave well in Writer when 
you klick somewhere in such a imported document and start writing.


(2) There are enough (even free) programs that add 'overlay' to PDF, 
e.g. for signing documents, so this is not needed to be done by AOO, too.






---





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Re: Ask OpenOffice #2 Top Questions: Now for the answers....

[Kay Schenk]

On 02/27/2014 10:02 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

Time to wrap this up.   I've gone through the 275 questions from 430
users and picked out the top ones.  I dropped the ones that repeated
questions we already answered in our last iteration of this.  I also
combined questions where there were duplicates or repetitions.  In
some cases I reworded questions for clarity.

Here's the "top 10", with some partial responses on a few of them.
I'll need your help to craft responses for all of them.


---

1) How can it be Microsoft is a platinum sponsor of Apache when
OpenOffice is competing with MS Office?


Rob:  This is an odd question to ask us, but I suppose we can explain
how the ASF is a foundation that supports many (100+) open source
projects and that a sponsor of AOO does not necessarily participate or
endorse every project at Apache.  But again, this is an odd question
for us.  Maybe we can pass it off to Ross Gardler for a better answer?

---

2)  A series of questions on proposed features and how we decide on
new features, including:

a) Is it possible to include a 'Track Change' feature in OpenOffice
like the one in MS Word?

b) When will OpenOffice be able to support saving in (.doc) for
Microsoft Word 2012-2014?

c) Does Open Office plan to add capability to print out marginal
comments/notes on the document page where they appear instead of as a
separate list at the end of the document?"

d) Will OpenOffice users be able to import a "PDF" file, update it,
and export the updated file?


e) How does you decide what features to put into OpenOffice?

f) What is the average time it takes you to fix a bug? add a new feature?

Rob:  I thought we'd lump these all together and give an in-depth
response about how features and bug fixes are prioritized in a
volunteer-led open source project at Apache.


The PDF question seems like a much larger animal than some of the others 
to me. Probably on par with b) -- on a larger scale maybe.


It may need a larger/longer explanation on its own.



---


3) What are the long term support and development plans for OpenOffice?

Rob: This is an opportunity for us to state our practice of supporting
version N and N-1 and point to the consultants page where users can
find those who can offer longer term support.

---

4) What are some of the most interesting features in OpenOffice that
most users don't know even exist?

Rob:  It seems most users don't know how to use word competition ;-)
But maybe we can nominate 4 or 5 "hidden features" or "underused
features" that users might not know about?

---


5) What's being done to help realise the universal OpenDocument dream?

Rob: We have some material here from our Document Freedom Day blog
post, talking about project members who are also active in the OASIS
ODF TC and the standardization effort.

---


6) Are there backdoors or spyware in Apache OpenOffice?

Rob:  Like we'd tell you if there were? ;-)But seriously, this
could be a topic of a standalone blog post, and maybe we should do
that.  We could discuss open source security, how we handle
vulnerability reports and the advantage of open source transparency
for preventing back doors.

---

7) How many volunteers work on OpenOffice?

Rob:  We can discuss the various kinds of volunteers in different
areas and get some stats.

---


8) Does it cost anything to upload a template online?

Rob: No.  Odd that this questions got so many votes.  Any ideas on why
this is a question?

---

9) What is being done to have openoffice return to be the default
suite in linux distributions?

Rob:  Anyone have an answer for this one?
---

10) How can a new volunteer contribute to the OpenOffice project?

Rob: Can point them to our "get involved" page.

---

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Ask OpenOffice #2 Top Questions: Now for the answers....

[Rob Weir]

Time to wrap this up.   I've gone through the 275 questions from 430
users and picked out the top ones.  I dropped the ones that repeated
questions we already answered in our last iteration of this.  I also
combined questions where there were duplicates or repetitions.  In
some cases I reworded questions for clarity.

Here's the "top 10", with some partial responses on a few of them.
I'll need your help to craft responses for all of them.


---

1) How can it be Microsoft is a platinum sponsor of Apache when
OpenOffice is competing with MS Office?


Rob:  This is an odd question to ask us, but I suppose we can explain
how the ASF is a foundation that supports many (100+) open source
projects and that a sponsor of AOO does not necessarily participate or
endorse every project at Apache.  But again, this is an odd question
for us.  Maybe we can pass it off to Ross Gardler for a better answer?

---

2)  A series of questions on proposed features and how we decide on
new features, including:

a) Is it possible to include a 'Track Change' feature in OpenOffice
like the one in MS Word?

b) When will OpenOffice be able to support saving in (.doc) for
Microsoft Word 2012-2014?

c) Does Open Office plan to add capability to print out marginal
comments/notes on the document page where they appear instead of as a
separate list at the end of the document?"

d) Will OpenOffice users be able to import a "PDF" file, update it,
and export the updated file?


e) How does you decide what features to put into OpenOffice?

f) What is the average time it takes you to fix a bug? add a new feature?

Rob:  I thought we'd lump these all together and give an in-depth
response about how features and bug fixes are prioritized in a
volunteer-led open source project at Apache.

---


3) What are the long term support and development plans for OpenOffice?

Rob: This is an opportunity for us to state our practice of supporting
version N and N-1 and point to the consultants page where users can
find those who can offer longer term support.

---

4) What are some of the most interesting features in OpenOffice that
most users don't know even exist?

Rob:  It seems most users don't know how to use word competition ;-)
But maybe we can nominate 4 or 5 "hidden features" or "underused
features" that users might not know about?

---


5) What's being done to help realise the universal OpenDocument dream?

Rob: We have some material here from our Document Freedom Day blog
post, talking about project members who are also active in the OASIS
ODF TC and the standardization effort.

---


6) Are there backdoors or spyware in Apache OpenOffice?

Rob:  Like we'd tell you if there were? ;-)But seriously, this
could be a topic of a standalone blog post, and maybe we should do
that.  We could discuss open source security, how we handle
vulnerability reports and the advantage of open source transparency
for preventing back doors.

---

7) How many volunteers work on OpenOffice?

Rob:  We can discuss the various kinds of volunteers in different
areas and get some stats.

---


8) Does it cost anything to upload a template online?

Rob: No.  Odd that this questions got so many votes.  Any ideas on why
this is a question?

---

9) What is being done to have openoffice return to be the default
suite in linux distributions?

Rob:  Anyone have an answer for this one?
---

10) How can a new volunteer contribute to the OpenOffice project?

Rob: Can point them to our "get involved" page.

---

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Re: Should we do another "your top questions answered" blog?

[Rob Weir]

On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> Last year at this time we did this post:
>
> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/your_top_questions_answered
>
> I thought it worked well.
>
> Should we do another?  Maybe with the restriction that it does not
> repeat questions from the 2013 version?
>
> I'd volunteer to solicit for questions and edit the blog post, using
> your input for the answers.
>

OK.  I have this setup up in Google Moderator now, but not announced yet:

http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=214628

It would great if I had 2 or 3 moderator volunteers willing to help
monitor.  Last year the moderators mainly marked duplicate questions,
rejected spam, etc.

Regards,

-Rob

> -Rob

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Re: Should we do another "your top questions answered" blog?

[Vladislav Stevanovic]

>Should we do another?  Maybe with the restriction that it does not
>repeat questions from the 2013 version?

+1

regards,
wlada


2014/1/6 Andrea Pescetti 

> On 05/01/2014 Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/your_top_questions_answered ...
>>
>> Should we do another?  Maybe with the restriction that it does not
>> repeat questions from the 2013 version?
>>
>
> It was interesting. It would be good to repeat. And restricting it to
> unanswered questions would help in discussing new topics (even though we
> will surely get some questions that we already answered last year, no
> matter how much we insist on that in the instructions).
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>
>
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>
>

Re: Should we do another "your top questions answered" blog?

[Andrea Pescetti]

On 05/01/2014 Rob Weir wrote:

https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/your_top_questions_answered ...
Should we do another?  Maybe with the restriction that it does not
repeat questions from the 2013 version?


It was interesting. It would be good to repeat. And restricting it to 
unanswered questions would help in discussing new topics (even though we 
will surely get some questions that we already answered last year, no 
matter how much we insist on that in the instructions).


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Should we do another "your top questions answered" blog?

[Rob Weir]

Last year at this time we did this post:

https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/your_top_questions_answered

I thought it worked well.

Should we do another?  Maybe with the restriction that it does not
repeat questions from the 2013 version?

I'd volunteer to solicit for questions and edit the blog post, using
your input for the answers.

-Rob

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Re: User questions on dev mailing list

[Kay Schenk]

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Andrew Rist  wrote:

>
> On 9/6/2013 4:41 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> 
>
>  Another angle is to realize that enabling the user and motivating them in
>> a specific direction is more powerful than trying to steer them away from a
>> specific direction. Maybe the problem is we are not making the support
>> forums sound attractive enough? Maybe if we said something like, "For the
>> fastest and most expert response, post your question to"? Make the
>> forums sound like the most attractive option. We know they are the best
>> place for questions, of course. But we ought to describe it equally
>> attractively. -Rob
>>
>
> Perhaps this is a situation of people who are more comfortable with email
> as a tool as opposed to a forum.  If you are not familiar with forums in
> general, our forum can be pretty daunting to navigate - there's a lot of
> info there.
>

I think you could be right about this. The other thing is I think people
want some immediate way, once they get to the contact page, to actually
"DO" something there -- e-mail or a web form -- to get help. So sending
them on to another page is frustrating.

On the "dev" email link being there. I think this is historical from when
we moved the site to Apache and were just getting things started, and maybe
even before we set up us...@openoffice.apache.org. It's placement there now
is not really relevant.

Assuming we put in a link to "users" in the first paragraph, I think the
rest of the e-mail links, with the existing subject lines which are
helpful, should stay.




>
> Do we have a way of bridging the two?  Is there a way to have an email
> address (e.g. forum_questi...@openoffice.org**) that autoposts to a catch
> all forum topic.  Then after the post was triaged, the poster would be
> autosubscribed for replies?
> I have no idea if something like this is possible, but it could provide
> both a bridge to introduce these users to the forum, and a mechanism to
> provide for feedback without having dev become help.
>
> A.
>
>
>
>>>  
>
>
> --**--**-
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> dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.**apache.org
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>
>


-- 
-
MzK

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged
 to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't."
 -- "Following the Equator", Mark Twain

Re: User questions on dev mailing list

[Hagar Delest]

Le 06/09/2013 22:37, Andrew Rist a écrit :

Perhaps this is a situation of people who are more comfortable with email as a 
tool as opposed to a forum.  If you are not familiar with forums in general, 
our forum can be pretty daunting to navigate - there's a lot of info there.

Do we have a way of bridging the two?  Is there a way to have an email address 
(e.g. forum_questi...@openoffice.org) that autoposts to a catch all forum 
topic.  Then after the post was triaged, the poster would be autosubscribed for 
replies?
I have no idea if something like this is possible, but it could provide both a 
bridge to introduce these users to the forum, and a mechanism to provide for 
feedback without having dev become help.


If people are not comfortable with forum then subscribing them automatically is 
not the best method I guess. And anyway, they need to give a password. So I 
don't think we can have a bridge.

Personally, I would change the layout of the mailing list wiki page and put the 
user list in the first place and heavily highlight it, and make clear that the 
other list are very specific.

Hagar

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Re: User questions on dev mailing list

[Andrew Rist]

On 9/6/2013 4:41 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

Another angle is to realize that enabling the user and motivating them 
in a specific direction is more powerful than trying to steer them 
away from a specific direction. Maybe the problem is we are not making 
the support forums sound attractive enough? Maybe if we said something 
like, "For the fastest and most expert response, post your question 
to"? Make the forums sound like the most attractive option. We 
know they are the best place for questions, of course. But we ought to 
describe it equally attractively. -Rob 


Perhaps this is a situation of people who are more comfortable with 
email as a tool as opposed to a forum.  If you are not familiar with 
forums in general, our forum can be pretty daunting to navigate - 
there's a lot of info there.


Do we have a way of bridging the two?  Is there a way to have an email 
address (e.g. forum_questi...@openoffice.org) that autoposts to a catch 
all forum topic.  Then after the post was triaged, the poster would be 
autosubscribed for replies?
I have no idea if something like this is possible, but it could provide 
both a bridge to introduce these users to the forum, and a mechanism to 
provide for feedback without having dev become help.


A.







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Re: User questions on dev mailing list

[Marcus (OOo)]

Am 09/06/2013 01:41 PM, schrieb Rob Weir:

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 3:39 AM, Marcus (OOo)  wrote:

Am 09/06/2013 03:24 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:



On Sep 5, 2013, at 4:32 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:


On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:11 PM, sebb   wrote:


A related issue is: why so many emails with the (irrelevant) subject:

"Reporting a problem with the Open Office website"



that's the pre-constructed subject for the  first entry in:
"If you have technical problems with one of the Apache OpenOffice
websites.."

this was put in a few weeks ago, so folks using this email section would
get more of an indication about what the subject they're sending about.

But we are still getting product problem reports this way. I would still
recommend removing the first reference to contacting the developers,
however.

If folks really do need an immediate e-mail on this Contact Us page, we
could easily put in a mailto: to "us...@openoffice.apache.org" the way
we've done with contact the developers. This would go through moderation,
but at least it would be going to a more appropriate mailing list. Is
this
a good idea?



Yes - and we should shorten the long suggested "subject" with something
like "[Contact]"



I've asked if it's a good idea to extend the subject to see where it comes
from and to show the user (hopefully) "Hey, maybe your text doesn't fit to
the subject, think again". Nobody objected and I did it.

Now it is too long, so I don't understand the objection. Why now?

OK, maybe a little revolution but we should remove any hints to the dev@
list completely as it obviously doesn't work. Just leave some hints to
users@ and the general mailing list webpage.



With a million downloads per week nothing will work perfectly accept
removing any mention of the dev list from that page.

We played with adjusting the wording on the website, and the ordering
of things on the page.  That improved things a little, I think.  But
even a small human error rate multiplied by 65 million will be
significant.

Maybe we shouldn't have a a subject line at all?  That would force the
sender to think and write one.  Many email clients force that.   If we
predefine a subject than many users will just use it unchanged.  This
is OK in some cases, where the intent is clearly expressed by the
subject, like "I am starting the Introduction to Contributing to
Apache OpenOffice" emails.  But it doesn't work well in other cases.


We had no subject line before the change and it was proven not to work. 
And additionally we didn't know where the mails came from.


Now there is a preset subject and - unfortunately - it still doesn't work.

So, going back to not offer a subject line won't change anything to work 
better.



Another angle is to realize that enabling the user and motivating them
in a specific direction is more powerful than trying to steer them
away from a specific direction.  Maybe the problem is we are not
making the support forums sound attractive enough?  Maybe if we said
something like, "For the fastest and most expert response, post your
question to"?  Make the forums sound like the most attractive
option.  We know they are the best place for questions, of course.
But we ought to describe it equally attractively.


Yes, that could maybe work. If someone has ideas to improve the wording 
and to guide the users into the wanted direction, then change, commit 
and wait for the results.


I as non-native speaker think I'm no longer suitable to do these changes.

Marcus




I assume there must be a mailto: link somewhere that is producing this.
The surrounding text may need to be tweaked to reduce these.


On 5 September 2013 22:48, Kay Schenk   wrote:


On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:29 AM, sebb   wrote:


On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir   wrote:


On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb   wrote:


The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
the user list/forum

Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question


answered


on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.

The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are


several:



- other users don't benefit from the thread
- the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
- the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
list/forum where there are lots more potential responders

Just a thought.



This is all true.  We also get user questions to the private mailing
list, and via the press alias address.  And we also get product
support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
alias.

But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
these things.  But it is a puzzle why this happens.

The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web
page


is this:



http://www.openoffice.org/conta

Re: User questions on dev mailing list

[Rob Weir]

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 3:39 AM, Marcus (OOo)  wrote:
> Am 09/06/2013 03:24 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:
>
>>
>> On Sep 5, 2013, at 4:32 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:11 PM, sebb  wrote:
>>>
>>>> A related issue is: why so many emails with the (irrelevant) subject:
>>>>
>>>> "Reporting a problem with the Open Office website"
>>>>
>>>
>>> that's the pre-constructed subject for the  first entry in:
>>> "If you have technical problems with one of the Apache OpenOffice
>>> websites.."
>>>
>>> this was put in a few weeks ago, so folks using this email section would
>>> get more of an indication about what the subject they're sending about.
>>>
>>> But we are still getting product problem reports this way. I would still
>>> recommend removing the first reference to contacting the developers,
>>> however.
>>>
>>> If folks really do need an immediate e-mail on this Contact Us page, we
>>> could easily put in a mailto: to "us...@openoffice.apache.org" the way
>>> we've done with contact the developers. This would go through moderation,
>>> but at least it would be going to a more appropriate mailing list. Is
>>> this
>>> a good idea?
>>
>>
>> Yes - and we should shorten the long suggested "subject" with something
>> like "[Contact]"
>
>
> I've asked if it's a good idea to extend the subject to see where it comes
> from and to show the user (hopefully) "Hey, maybe your text doesn't fit to
> the subject, think again". Nobody objected and I did it.
>
> Now it is too long, so I don't understand the objection. Why now?
>
> OK, maybe a little revolution but we should remove any hints to the dev@
> list completely as it obviously doesn't work. Just leave some hints to
> users@ and the general mailing list webpage.
>

With a million downloads per week nothing will work perfectly accept
removing any mention of the dev list from that page.

We played with adjusting the wording on the website, and the ordering
of things on the page.  That improved things a little, I think.  But
even a small human error rate multiplied by 65 million will be
significant.

Maybe we shouldn't have a a subject line at all?  That would force the
sender to think and write one.  Many email clients force that.   If we
predefine a subject than many users will just use it unchanged.  This
is OK in some cases, where the intent is clearly expressed by the
subject, like "I am starting the Introduction to Contributing to
Apache OpenOffice" emails.  But it doesn't work well in other cases.

Another angle is to realize that enabling the user and motivating them
in a specific direction is more powerful than trying to steer them
away from a specific direction.  Maybe the problem is we are not
making the support forums sound attractive enough?  Maybe if we said
something like, "For the fastest and most expert response, post your
question to"?  Make the forums sound like the most attractive
option.  We know they are the best place for questions, of course.
But we ought to describe it equally attractively.

-Rob


> Marcus
>
>
>
>
>>>> I assume there must be a mailto: link somewhere that is producing this.
>>>> The surrounding text may need to be tweaked to reduce these.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5 September 2013 22:48, Kay Schenk  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:29 AM, sebb  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb  wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
>>>>>>>> the user list/forum
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question
>>>>
>>>> answered
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are
>>>>>>
>>>>>> several:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - other users don't benefit from the thread
>>>>>>>> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
>>>>>>>

Re: User questions on dev mailing list

[Marcus (OOo)]

Am 09/06/2013 03:24 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:


On Sep 5, 2013, at 4:32 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:


On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:11 PM, sebb  wrote:


A related issue is: why so many emails with the (irrelevant) subject:

"Reporting a problem with the Open Office website"



that's the pre-constructed subject for the  first entry in:
"If you have technical problems with one of the Apache OpenOffice
websites.."

this was put in a few weeks ago, so folks using this email section would
get more of an indication about what the subject they're sending about.

But we are still getting product problem reports this way. I would still
recommend removing the first reference to contacting the developers,
however.

If folks really do need an immediate e-mail on this Contact Us page, we
could easily put in a mailto: to "us...@openoffice.apache.org" the way
we've done with contact the developers. This would go through moderation,
but at least it would be going to a more appropriate mailing list. Is this
a good idea?


Yes - and we should shorten the long suggested "subject" with something like 
"[Contact]"


I've asked if it's a good idea to extend the subject to see where it 
comes from and to show the user (hopefully) "Hey, maybe your text 
doesn't fit to the subject, think again". Nobody objected and I did it.


Now it is too long, so I don't understand the objection. Why now?

OK, maybe a little revolution but we should remove any hints to the dev@ 
list completely as it obviously doesn't work. Just leave some hints to 
users@ and the general mailing list webpage.


Marcus




I assume there must be a mailto: link somewhere that is producing this.
The surrounding text may need to be tweaked to reduce these.


On 5 September 2013 22:48, Kay Schenk  wrote:

On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:29 AM, sebb  wrote:


On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir  wrote:

On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb  wrote:

The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
the user list/forum

Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question

answered

on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.

The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are

several:


- other users don't benefit from the thread
- the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
- the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
list/forum where there are lots more potential responders

Just a thought.



This is all true.  We also get user questions to the private mailing
list, and via the press alias address.  And we also get product
support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
alias.

But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
these things.  But it is a puzzle why this happens.

The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web page

is this:


http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html

We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
were first and more prominent.  But we still get misdirected emails,
to the dev, private, etc. lists.  But with a million downloads a week
there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if they
send to a different list.


[And they are proved right when their off-topic questions are promptly
answered ...]

The second heading currently says:

"If you want to contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team..."

which may explain some of the misdirected questions.
[Who better to ask than a developer if there is a problem?
Maybe I'll get a faster response?]

I think that section should have some explanation as to when it is
appropriate to contact the team directly.
Possibly move it further down the page as well.



Maybe the "contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team" needs to be
removed from the "Contact Us" page entirely.  Honestly, given the

context,

I'm not sure this belongs here. Maybe delete that section and add a

heading

at the end called Mailing Lists and route them to the project mailing

list

page. That might encourage users to  make a better choice for contacting.





-Rob


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Re: User questions on dev mailing list

[Dave Fisher]

On Sep 5, 2013, at 4:32 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:11 PM, sebb  wrote:
> 
>> A related issue is: why so many emails with the (irrelevant) subject:
>> 
>> "Reporting a problem with the Open Office website"
>> 
> 
> that's the pre-constructed subject for the  first entry in:
> "If you have technical problems with one of the Apache OpenOffice
> websites.."
> 
> this was put in a few weeks ago, so folks using this email section would
> get more of an indication about what the subject they're sending about.
> 
> But we are still getting product problem reports this way. I would still
> recommend removing the first reference to contacting the developers,
> however.
> 
> If folks really do need an immediate e-mail on this Contact Us page, we
> could easily put in a mailto: to "us...@openoffice.apache.org" the way
> we've done with contact the developers. This would go through moderation,
> but at least it would be going to a more appropriate mailing list. Is this
> a good idea?

Yes - and we should shorten the long suggested "subject" with something like 
"[Contact]"

Regards,
Dave 

> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> I assume there must be a mailto: link somewhere that is producing this.
>> The surrounding text may need to be tweaked to reduce these.
>> 
>> 
>> On 5 September 2013 22:48, Kay Schenk  wrote:
>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:29 AM, sebb  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir  wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb  wrote:
>>>>>> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
>>>>>> the user list/forum
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question
>> answered
>>>>>> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are
>>>> several:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> - other users don't benefit from the thread
>>>>>> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
>>>>>> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
>>>>>> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Just a thought.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is all true.  We also get user questions to the private mailing
>>>>> list, and via the press alias address.  And we also get product
>>>>> support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
>>>>> alias.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
>>>>> these things.  But it is a puzzle why this happens.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web page
>>>> is this:
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
>>>>> were first and more prominent.  But we still get misdirected emails,
>>>>> to the dev, private, etc. lists.  But with a million downloads a week
>>>>> there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
>>>>> page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if they
>>>>> send to a different list.
>>>> 
>>>> [And they are proved right when their off-topic questions are promptly
>>>> answered ...]
>>>> 
>>>> The second heading currently says:
>>>> 
>>>> "If you want to contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team..."
>>>> 
>>>> which may explain some of the misdirected questions.
>>>> [Who better to ask than a developer if there is a problem?
>>>> Maybe I'll get a faster response?]
>>>> 
>>>> I think that section should have some explanation as to when it is
>>>> appropriate to contact the team directly.
>>>> Possibly move it further down the page as well.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Maybe the "contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team" needs to be
>>> removed from the "Contact Us" page entirely.  Honestly, given the
>> context,
>>> I'm not sure this belongs here. Maybe delete that sec

Re: User questions on dev mailing list

[Kay Schenk]

On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:29 AM, sebb  wrote:

> On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir  wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb  wrote:
> >> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
> >> the user list/forum
> >>
> >> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question answered
> >> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
> >>
> >> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are
> several:
> >>
> >> - other users don't benefit from the thread
> >> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
> >> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
> >> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
> >>
> >> Just a thought.
> >>
> >
> > This is all true.  We also get user questions to the private mailing
> > list, and via the press alias address.  And we also get product
> > support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
> > alias.
> >
> > But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
> > these things.  But it is a puzzle why this happens.
> >
> > The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web page
> is this:
> >
> > http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html
> >
> > We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
> > were first and more prominent.  But we still get misdirected emails,
> > to the dev, private, etc. lists.  But with a million downloads a week
> > there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
> > page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if they
> > send to a different list.
>
> [And they are proved right when their off-topic questions are promptly
> answered ...]
>
> The second heading currently says:
>
> "If you want to contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team..."
>
> which may explain some of the misdirected questions.
> [Who better to ask than a developer if there is a problem?
> Maybe I'll get a faster response?]
>
> I think that section should have some explanation as to when it is
> appropriate to contact the team directly.
> Possibly move it further down the page as well.
>

Maybe the "contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team" needs to be
removed from the "Contact Us" page entirely.  Honestly, given the context,
I'm not sure this belongs here. Maybe delete that section and add a heading
at the end called Mailing Lists and route them to the project mailing list
page. That might encourage users to  make a better choice for contacting.




> > -Rob
> >
> >> -
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> >>
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> >
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>


-- 
-
MzK

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged
 to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't."
 -- "Following the Equator", Mark Twain

Re: User questions on dev mailing list

[Kay Schenk]

On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:11 PM, sebb  wrote:

> A related issue is: why so many emails with the (irrelevant) subject:
>
> "Reporting a problem with the Open Office website"
>

that's the pre-constructed subject for the  first entry in:
"If you have technical problems with one of the Apache OpenOffice
websites.."

this was put in a few weeks ago, so folks using this email section would
get more of an indication about what the subject they're sending about.

But we are still getting product problem reports this way. I would still
recommend removing the first reference to contacting the developers,
however.

If folks really do need an immediate e-mail on this Contact Us page, we
could easily put in a mailto: to "us...@openoffice.apache.org" the way
we've done with contact the developers. This would go through moderation,
but at least it would be going to a more appropriate mailing list. Is this
a good idea?



>
> I assume there must be a mailto: link somewhere that is producing this.
> The surrounding text may need to be tweaked to reduce these.
>
>
> On 5 September 2013 22:48, Kay Schenk  wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:29 AM, sebb  wrote:
> >
> >> On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir  wrote:
> >> > On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb  wrote:
> >> >> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
> >> >> the user list/forum
> >> >>
> >> >> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question
> answered
> >> >> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
> >> >>
> >> >> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are
> >> several:
> >> >>
> >> >> - other users don't benefit from the thread
> >> >> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
> >> >> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
> >> >> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
> >> >>
> >> >> Just a thought.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > This is all true.  We also get user questions to the private mailing
> >> > list, and via the press alias address.  And we also get product
> >> > support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
> >> > alias.
> >> >
> >> > But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
> >> > these things.  But it is a puzzle why this happens.
> >> >
> >> > The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web page
> >> is this:
> >> >
> >> > http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html
> >> >
> >> > We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
> >> > were first and more prominent.  But we still get misdirected emails,
> >> > to the dev, private, etc. lists.  But with a million downloads a week
> >> > there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
> >> > page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if they
> >> > send to a different list.
> >>
> >> [And they are proved right when their off-topic questions are promptly
> >> answered ...]
> >>
> >> The second heading currently says:
> >>
> >> "If you want to contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team..."
> >>
> >> which may explain some of the misdirected questions.
> >> [Who better to ask than a developer if there is a problem?
> >> Maybe I'll get a faster response?]
> >>
> >> I think that section should have some explanation as to when it is
> >> appropriate to contact the team directly.
> >> Possibly move it further down the page as well.
> >>
> >
> > Maybe the "contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team" needs to be
> > removed from the "Contact Us" page entirely.  Honestly, given the
> context,
> > I'm not sure this belongs here. Maybe delete that section and add a
> heading
> > at the end called Mailing Lists and route them to the project mailing
> list
> > page. That might encourage users to  make a better choice for contacting.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> > -Rob
> >> >
> >> >> -
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> >> >> For additional comman

Re: User questions on dev mailing list

[sebb]

A related issue is: why so many emails with the (irrelevant) subject:

"Reporting a problem with the Open Office website"


I assume there must be a mailto: link somewhere that is producing this.
The surrounding text may need to be tweaked to reduce these.


On 5 September 2013 22:48, Kay Schenk  wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:29 AM, sebb  wrote:
>
>> On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> > On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb  wrote:
>> >> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
>> >> the user list/forum
>> >>
>> >> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question answered
>> >> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
>> >>
>> >> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are
>> several:
>> >>
>> >> - other users don't benefit from the thread
>> >> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
>> >> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
>> >> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
>> >>
>> >> Just a thought.
>> >>
>> >
>> > This is all true.  We also get user questions to the private mailing
>> > list, and via the press alias address.  And we also get product
>> > support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
>> > alias.
>> >
>> > But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
>> > these things.  But it is a puzzle why this happens.
>> >
>> > The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web page
>> is this:
>> >
>> > http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html
>> >
>> > We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
>> > were first and more prominent.  But we still get misdirected emails,
>> > to the dev, private, etc. lists.  But with a million downloads a week
>> > there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
>> > page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if they
>> > send to a different list.
>>
>> [And they are proved right when their off-topic questions are promptly
>> answered ...]
>>
>> The second heading currently says:
>>
>> "If you want to contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team..."
>>
>> which may explain some of the misdirected questions.
>> [Who better to ask than a developer if there is a problem?
>> Maybe I'll get a faster response?]
>>
>> I think that section should have some explanation as to when it is
>> appropriate to contact the team directly.
>> Possibly move it further down the page as well.
>>
>
> Maybe the "contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team" needs to be
> removed from the "Contact Us" page entirely.  Honestly, given the context,
> I'm not sure this belongs here. Maybe delete that section and add a heading
> at the end called Mailing Lists and route them to the project mailing list
> page. That might encourage users to  make a better choice for contacting.
>
>
>
>
>> > -Rob
>> >
>> >> -
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>> >>
>> >
>> > -
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>> >
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> -
> MzK
>
> "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged
>  to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't."
>  -- "Following the Equator", Mark Twain

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Re: User questions on dev mailing list

[Hagar Delest]

Le 05/09/2013 21:13, Andrea Pescetti a écrit :

Considering the people we are dealing with (users who are often unfamiliar with 
mailing lists) I think that we should continue to moderate messages and 
replying, but add to the reply something like:

Please note that this mailing list is not the right place for user support. 
Further questions should be sent to the user support channels: 
http://www.openoffice.org/support/

+1.

Often in such case, I add a note in the message, replying to the user list and 
moving the dev address from To to CC.
But for the moment I havent seen many topics continued on the user list 
afterward (no reply at all in fact).

Hagar

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Re: User questions on dev mailing list

[Andrea Pescetti]

Peter Junge wrote:

Unfortunately it's not possible to already
redirecting to the user list during moderating. I would guess at least
80% of user topics here are moderated in. Didn't we discuss mechanisms
to restrict postings to dev@ a couple of months ago?


Considering the people we are dealing with (users who are often 
unfamiliar with mailing lists) I think that we should continue to 
moderate messages and replying, but add to the reply something like:


Please note that this mailing list is not the right place for user 
support. Further questions should be sent to the user support channels: 
http://www.openoffice.org/support/


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: User questions on dev mailing list

[sebb]

On 5 September 2013 12:00, Rob Weir  wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:24 AM, sebb  wrote:
>> The dev list sees the occasional thread which IMO really belongs on
>> the user list/forum
>>
>> Although it is convenient for the poster to have the question answered
>> on the dev list, I wonder if that is the best approach overall.
>>
>> The disadvantages of not referring the poster to the user list are several:
>>
>> - other users don't benefit from the thread
>> - the dev list is cluttered with the off-topic threads
>> - the poster may continue to use the dev list rather than the user
>> list/forum where there are lots more potential responders
>>
>> Just a thought.
>>
>
> This is all true.  We also get user questions to the private mailing
> list, and via the press alias address.  And we also get product
> support questions to the Bugzilla admin alias and the ezmlm admin
> alias.
>
> But I don't think we actively encourage users to post questions to do
> these things.  But it is a puzzle why this happens.
>
> The main contact page for the project, on the footer of every web page is 
> this:
>
> http://www.openoffice.org/contact_us.html
>
> We've adjusted this over time, to make sure that the support options
> were first and more prominent.  But we still get misdirected emails,
> to the dev, private, etc. lists.  But with a million downloads a week
> there will always be some small number of users who don't read that
> page carefully, or maybe think they will get a faster response if they
> send to a different list.

[And they are proved right when their off-topic questions are promptly
answered ...]

The second heading currently says:

"If you want to contact the Apache OpenOffice developer team..."

which may explain some of the misdirected questions.
[Who better to ask than a developer if there is a problem?
Maybe I'll get a faster response?]

I think that section should have some explanation as to when it is
appropriate to contact the team directly.
Possibly move it further down the page as well.

> -Rob
>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>

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