Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-17 Thread Robby Findler
I've finally gotten back to this and just pushed something that uses
tooltips for these messages now.

Thanks,
Robby

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Stephen Bloch bl...@adelphi.edu wrote:
 I find confusing the caption at the bottom of the dialog that explains what 
 the currently-selected language means.  I think we could provide the same 
 information more intuitively with mouseover tooltips, and lose the caption 
 entirely.  I'm not worried about showing a caption for the language the mouse 
 is currently over, rather than the currently selected language, because 
 people are accustomed to tooltips and expect them to come and go with where 
 the mouse is.

 Stephen Bloch
 sbl...@adelphi.edu


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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Neil Van Dyke

Matthias Felleisen wrote at 11/05/2012 10:14 PM:

* racket/base (for scripting)
* racket (for programming)


After thinking about it, I think I see what you mean with the 
distinction between ``for scripting''  and ``for programming''.  But I 
think this might be confusing.


(Explanation... I have been thinking of it the other way around: #lang 
racket is what you use when you want to just start typing and have 
everything available and type less text, in a scripting-language kind of 
way, and #lang racket/base is what one uses when putting a little more 
care into engineering, and doesn't mind the extra thinking and text.  
For example, when making a reusable PLaneT package, I think it's good 
practice to go to the extra effort to use #lang racket/base instead of 
#lang racket; otherwise, you doom all users of your package to pull in 
all of #lang racket, which they might have engineering reasons not to 
do.  But I guess you were speaking only of process load times -- that 
people would use racket/base so that standalone ``scripting'' programs 
would load quicker from the command line -- not about a quick-scripting 
nature of the programming activity?)


Neil V.

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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Robby Findler
Okay, thanks for the feedback.

I've pushed a change that mostly takes the suggestions, except no blue
and instead of the parentheticals, I've linked to the docs. (I don't
like how the links don't line up vertically so I'll fix that unless
the whole thing is dumped, depending on what people say here.)

Robby
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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Robby Findler
Well, I can't say that I'm excited about the prospect of going back to
that dialog. My goal is to move towards no language dialog at all
eventually and that change would not be a step in that direction.

While we wait for others' opinions, I've pushed something that makes
the ellipsis clickable, at least.

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Eli Barzilay e...@barzilay.org wrote:
 Yesterday, Matthias Felleisen wrote:

 I second Sam's suggestions.

 -- I would use The Racket Language for the first line of the first

 +117

 (I see it in the new dialog, but looks like the language still has the
 long name elsewhere.)


 I agree with Robby that *SLs probably have to reject (module ...)
 expressions EXCEPT that I don't see how they can get hold of the
 information that the programmer wrote down (other than guessing from
 the second position in the module expression but that sounds bad).

 I think that it's fine for drr to spit an appropriate error (maybe
 even with a shortcut click ok to switch to #lang button) if the
 definitions text starts with a #lang.  It's only stealing the
 ability for the non-#lang languages to use #lang for something else,
 but none of them are doing it now, and since it's something that
 should eventually disappear there shouldn't be any new ones (or worse,
 new ones that use it).


 Also, the thing that sticks out to me (still) is the poor-looking UI.
 It's using a radio button selection for something that it isn't
 intended for (UI-ly speaking).  I think that this is the main thing
 that leads to several smaller problems --

 * the awkward use of ctl-? to switch,

 * the confusing interaction if you're not a mouse user,

 * the fact that the blurb line appears at the bottom (confusigly close
   to the ... of the other languages),

 * the weird interaction around the ... (I obviously tried to click
   it)

 * The fact that it's still steals a lot of screen space for something
   that most people shouldn't need (and DeinProgramm is making it take
   even more space?).

 But I think that the organization is a good direction for something
 that works nicely -- so how about this:

 * Revert all the way back to the plain hierarchical dialog that was
   used before the radio button thing (= go back to a simple UI)

 * Slap the current hierarchy on that, so that The Racket Language is
   first as it is now (and part of the hierarchy, top item), that
   preserves the current layout that encourages it.

 * To deal with the teaching languages, have them expanded only if the
   current language is the no-language thing (though I still think that
   that language is confusing more people than helping them).

 --
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 http://barzilay.org/   Maze is Life!
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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Eli Barzilay
A few minutes ago, Robby Findler wrote:
 Well, I can't say that I'm excited about the prospect of going back
 to that dialog. My goal is to move towards no language dialog at all
 eventually and that change would not be a step in that direction.

(Yes, I know that the goal is to get rid of it -- it's just that we
now have this weird semi-hierarchy thing that is better expressed with
just a plain hierlist...)

-- 
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http://barzilay.org/   Maze is Life!
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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Asumu Takikawa
On 2012-11-05 22:14:57 -0500, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
 -- I would use The Racket Language for the first line of the first item

The latest dialog with this change looks really nice! FWIW, one thing
that confused me was that the language selector in the bottom left still
says Determine language from source when you click on The Racket
Language in the dialog.

I understand the connection here, but I imagine it'd be confusing for
some people. Maybe just put Racket (#lang) or Racket (determine
language from source) or something else instead?

Cheers,
Asumu
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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Robby Findler
ro...@eecs.northwestern.edu wrote:
 Okay, thanks for the feedback.

 I've pushed a change that mostly takes the suggestions, except no blue
 and instead of the parentheticals, I've linked to the docs. (I don't
 like how the links don't line up vertically so I'll fix that unless
 the whole thing is dumped, depending on what people say here.)

I love it!

Aside from the vertical alignment, I'd make the various #langs
clickable, and have them change the #lang in the file (if it's
unedited).

--
sam th
sa...@ccs.neu.edu
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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Asumu Takikawa
On 2012-11-06 14:27:42 -0500, Asumu Takikawa wrote:
 The latest dialog with this change looks really nice! FWIW, one thing
 that confused me was that the language selector in the bottom left still
 says Determine language from source when you click on The Racket
 Language in the dialog.

Another thing: it was non-obvious to me that the indented options were
clickable (and some aren't). Maybe an underline (like HTML links) would
suffice?

Cheers,
Asumu
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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Robby Findler
The docs links are meant to all be clickable (and I can certainly
underline them). What were you expecting, exactly?

I prefer not to make clicking on the #lang .. part edit the
definitions window; I think copy and paste is probably clearer to the
user.

Robby

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Asumu Takikawa as...@ccs.neu.edu wrote:
 On 2012-11-06 14:27:42 -0500, Asumu Takikawa wrote:
 The latest dialog with this change looks really nice! FWIW, one thing
 that confused me was that the language selector in the bottom left still
 says Determine language from source when you click on The Racket
 Language in the dialog.

 Another thing: it was non-obvious to me that the indented options were
 clickable (and some aren't). Maybe an underline (like HTML links) would
 suffice?

 Cheers,
 Asumu
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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Matthias Felleisen

+1 

Thank you for the experiment. I am coming to two conclusions: 
 -- I think we're closer to getting it right 
 -- I am beginning to think we dont' ever wish to abolish it. 




On Nov 6, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Asumu Takikawa wrote:

 On 2012-11-06 14:03:50 -0600, Robby Findler wrote:
 The docs links are meant to all be clickable (and I can certainly
 underline them). What were you expecting, exactly?
 
 I prefer not to make clicking on the #lang .. part edit the
 definitions window; I think copy and paste is probably clearer to the
 user.
 
 I didn't actually expect the '#lang ...' to change anything, but I could
 imagine thinking that it did and being confused. Similarly, it might not
 be obvious that the teaching languages are clickable without some visual
 distinction.
 
 Cheers,
 Asumu



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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Robby Findler
OH! I now get the confusion. Clicking on the teaching languages is the
way one interacts with that part of the dialog but the #lang lines are
just text and users of this thing will be completely confused by
non-parallelism.

Duh!

Hm.

Robby

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Matthias Felleisen matth...@ccs.neu.edu wrote:

 +1

 Thank you for the experiment. I am coming to two conclusions:
  -- I think we're closer to getting it right
  -- I am beginning to think we dont' ever wish to abolish it.




 On Nov 6, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Asumu Takikawa wrote:

 On 2012-11-06 14:03:50 -0600, Robby Findler wrote:
 The docs links are meant to all be clickable (and I can certainly
 underline them). What were you expecting, exactly?

 I prefer not to make clicking on the #lang .. part edit the
 definitions window; I think copy and paste is probably clearer to the
 user.

 I didn't actually expect the '#lang ...' to change anything, but I could
 imagine thinking that it did and being confused. Similarly, it might not
 be obvious that the teaching languages are clickable without some visual
 distinction.

 Cheers,
 Asumu

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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Robby Findler
Okay, I've push something to try to deal with this.

Robby

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 3:35 PM, Robby Findler
ro...@eecs.northwestern.edu wrote:
 OH! I now get the confusion. Clicking on the teaching languages is the
 way one interacts with that part of the dialog but the #lang lines are
 just text and users of this thing will be completely confused by
 non-parallelism.

 Duh!

 Hm.

 Robby

 On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Matthias Felleisen matth...@ccs.neu.edu 
 wrote:

 +1

 Thank you for the experiment. I am coming to two conclusions:
  -- I think we're closer to getting it right
  -- I am beginning to think we dont' ever wish to abolish it.




 On Nov 6, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Asumu Takikawa wrote:

 On 2012-11-06 14:03:50 -0600, Robby Findler wrote:
 The docs links are meant to all be clickable (and I can certainly
 underline them). What were you expecting, exactly?

 I prefer not to make clicking on the #lang .. part edit the
 definitions window; I think copy and paste is probably clearer to the
 user.

 I didn't actually expect the '#lang ...' to change anything, but I could
 imagine thinking that it did and being confused. Similarly, it might not
 be obvious that the teaching languages are clickable without some visual
 distinction.

 Cheers,
 Asumu

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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Matthias Felleisen

Ouch. It satisfies the gui design laws so it passes this test. 
For an 'old timer' it doesn't truly work. Let's wait and see. 

-- Matthias




On Nov 6, 2012, at 8:17 PM, Robby Findler wrote:

 Okay, I've push something to try to deal with this.
 
 Robby
 
 On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 3:35 PM, Robby Findler
 ro...@eecs.northwestern.edu wrote:
 OH! I now get the confusion. Clicking on the teaching languages is the
 way one interacts with that part of the dialog but the #lang lines are
 just text and users of this thing will be completely confused by
 non-parallelism.
 
 Duh!
 
 Hm.
 
 Robby
 
 On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Matthias Felleisen matth...@ccs.neu.edu 
 wrote:
 
 +1
 
 Thank you for the experiment. I am coming to two conclusions:
 -- I think we're closer to getting it right
 -- I am beginning to think we dont' ever wish to abolish it.
 
 
 
 
 On Nov 6, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Asumu Takikawa wrote:
 
 On 2012-11-06 14:03:50 -0600, Robby Findler wrote:
 The docs links are meant to all be clickable (and I can certainly
 underline them). What were you expecting, exactly?
 
 I prefer not to make clicking on the #lang .. part edit the
 definitions window; I think copy and paste is probably clearer to the
 user.
 
 I didn't actually expect the '#lang ...' to change anything, but I could
 imagine thinking that it did and being confused. Similarly, it might not
 be obvious that the teaching languages are clickable without some visual
 distinction.
 
 Cheers,
 Asumu
 



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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Robby Findler
Just to check: did you click on #lang racket when you had #lang racket
in the buffer already? I need to improve that case a little bit.

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Matthias Felleisen matth...@ccs.neu.edu wrote:

 Ouch. It satisfies the gui design laws so it passes this test.
 For an 'old timer' it doesn't truly work. Let's wait and see.

 -- Matthias




 On Nov 6, 2012, at 8:17 PM, Robby Findler wrote:

 Okay, I've push something to try to deal with this.

 Robby

 On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 3:35 PM, Robby Findler
 ro...@eecs.northwestern.edu wrote:
 OH! I now get the confusion. Clicking on the teaching languages is the
 way one interacts with that part of the dialog but the #lang lines are
 just text and users of this thing will be completely confused by
 non-parallelism.

 Duh!

 Hm.

 Robby

 On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Matthias Felleisen matth...@ccs.neu.edu 
 wrote:

 +1

 Thank you for the experiment. I am coming to two conclusions:
 -- I think we're closer to getting it right
 -- I am beginning to think we dont' ever wish to abolish it.




 On Nov 6, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Asumu Takikawa wrote:

 On 2012-11-06 14:03:50 -0600, Robby Findler wrote:
 The docs links are meant to all be clickable (and I can certainly
 underline them). What were you expecting, exactly?

 I prefer not to make clicking on the #lang .. part edit the
 definitions window; I think copy and paste is probably clearer to the
 user.

 I didn't actually expect the '#lang ...' to change anything, but I could
 imagine thinking that it did and being confused. Similarly, it might not
 be obvious that the teaching languages are clickable without some visual
 distinction.

 Cheers,
 Asumu


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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Matthias Felleisen

No, I just played with the language dialog itself. 


On Nov 6, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Robby Findler wrote:

 Just to check: did you click on #lang racket when you had #lang racket
 in the buffer already? I need to improve that case a little bit.
 
 On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Matthias Felleisen matth...@ccs.neu.edu 
 wrote:
 
 Ouch. It satisfies the gui design laws so it passes this test.
 For an 'old timer' it doesn't truly work. Let's wait and see.
 
 -- Matthias
 
 
 
 
 On Nov 6, 2012, at 8:17 PM, Robby Findler wrote:
 
 Okay, I've push something to try to deal with this.
 
 Robby
 
 On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 3:35 PM, Robby Findler
 ro...@eecs.northwestern.edu wrote:
 OH! I now get the confusion. Clicking on the teaching languages is the
 way one interacts with that part of the dialog but the #lang lines are
 just text and users of this thing will be completely confused by
 non-parallelism.
 
 Duh!
 
 Hm.
 
 Robby
 
 On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Matthias Felleisen matth...@ccs.neu.edu 
 wrote:
 
 +1
 
 Thank you for the experiment. I am coming to two conclusions:
 -- I think we're closer to getting it right
 -- I am beginning to think we dont' ever wish to abolish it.
 
 
 
 
 On Nov 6, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Asumu Takikawa wrote:
 
 On 2012-11-06 14:03:50 -0600, Robby Findler wrote:
 The docs links are meant to all be clickable (and I can certainly
 underline them). What were you expecting, exactly?
 
 I prefer not to make clicking on the #lang .. part edit the
 definitions window; I think copy and paste is probably clearer to the
 user.
 
 I didn't actually expect the '#lang ...' to change anything, but I could
 imagine thinking that it did and being confused. Similarly, it might not
 be obvious that the teaching languages are clickable without some visual
 distinction.
 
 Cheers,
 Asumu
 
 



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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Matthias Felleisen

Ah, no I see what you mean. Let's keep this one for a while. 



On Nov 6, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Robby Findler wrote:

 Just to check: did you click on #lang racket when you had #lang racket
 in the buffer already? I need to improve that case a little bit.
 
 On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Matthias Felleisen matth...@ccs.neu.edu 
 wrote:
 
 Ouch. It satisfies the gui design laws so it passes this test.
 For an 'old timer' it doesn't truly work. Let's wait and see.
 
 -- Matthias
 
 
 
 
 On Nov 6, 2012, at 8:17 PM, Robby Findler wrote:
 
 Okay, I've push something to try to deal with this.
 
 Robby
 
 On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 3:35 PM, Robby Findler
 ro...@eecs.northwestern.edu wrote:
 OH! I now get the confusion. Clicking on the teaching languages is the
 way one interacts with that part of the dialog but the #lang lines are
 just text and users of this thing will be completely confused by
 non-parallelism.
 
 Duh!
 
 Hm.
 
 Robby
 
 On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Matthias Felleisen matth...@ccs.neu.edu 
 wrote:
 
 +1
 
 Thank you for the experiment. I am coming to two conclusions:
 -- I think we're closer to getting it right
 -- I am beginning to think we dont' ever wish to abolish it.
 
 
 
 
 On Nov 6, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Asumu Takikawa wrote:
 
 On 2012-11-06 14:03:50 -0600, Robby Findler wrote:
 The docs links are meant to all be clickable (and I can certainly
 underline them). What were you expecting, exactly?
 
 I prefer not to make clicking on the #lang .. part edit the
 definitions window; I think copy and paste is probably clearer to the
 user.
 
 I didn't actually expect the '#lang ...' to change anything, but I could
 imagine thinking that it did and being confused. Similarly, it might not
 be obvious that the teaching languages are clickable without some visual
 distinction.
 
 Cheers,
 Asumu
 
 



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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-06 Thread Stephen Bloch
I find confusing the caption at the bottom of the dialog that explains what the 
currently-selected language means.  I think we could provide the same 
information more intuitively with mouseover tooltips, and lose the caption 
entirely.  I'm not worried about showing a caption for the language the mouse 
is currently over, rather than the currently selected language, because people 
are accustomed to tooltips and expect them to come and go with where the mouse 
is.

Stephen Bloch
sbl...@adelphi.edu


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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-05 Thread Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Robby Findler
ro...@eecs.northwestern.edu wrote:
 There was a discussion a while back on revising the language dialog
 (I've lost track of the thread since I started hacking on the dialog;
 apologies).

The thread starts here:
http://bugs.racket-lang.org/query/?cmd=viewpr=12642 and continues
here: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@racket-lang.org/msg05730.html

 I've just pushed something based on that discussion. Please let me
 know what you think.

I like the new dialog a lot.  I think it could be improved with some
of the suggestions made in the thread.  Three I like in particular:

- Make the language for teaching and #lang more parallel.  This
could help emphasize that the first option is really a language
choice.  So either change Teaching language to Use a teaching
language, or change the first option to Standard language (or
normal or something else like that).

- Add some example #lang lines under the #lang option.  These could
even be actual choices, which edit the buffer if it's a new one --
`racket`, `racket/base`, `typed/racket`, `slideshow` are good
candidates.

- Allow the presence of a #lang line to override the language dialog,
or at least give an error that's more helpful than currently.

--
sam th
sa...@ccs.neu.edu
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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-05 Thread Robby Findler
Thanks for taking a look.

On Monday, November 5, 2012, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote:

 - Allow the presence of a #lang line to override the language dialog,
 or at least give an error that's more helpful than currently.


What did you have in mind here? The error you get in the teaching languages
when the program starts with #lang ?

Robby
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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-05 Thread Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 6:11 PM, Robby Findler
ro...@eecs.northwestern.edu wrote:
 Thanks for taking a look.

 On Monday, November 5, 2012, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote:

 - Allow the presence of a #lang line to override the language dialog,
 or at least give an error that's more helpful than currently.


 What did you have in mind here? The error you get in the teaching languages
 when the program starts with #lang ?

For the latter, yeah.  I imagine a message like:

You are currently using the Beginning Student, which doesn't support
files starting with #lang language here.  To enable this, choose the
use the language declared in the source option in the language
dialog.

Of course, that wording suggests that we have a shorter name for that option. :)

--
sam th
sa...@ccs.neu.edu
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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-05 Thread Robby Findler
I think it makes sense to put that error message directly into the
teaching languages.

Robby

On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt sa...@ccs.neu.edu wrote:
 On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 6:11 PM, Robby Findler
 ro...@eecs.northwestern.edu wrote:
 Thanks for taking a look.

 On Monday, November 5, 2012, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote:

 - Allow the presence of a #lang line to override the language dialog,
 or at least give an error that's more helpful than currently.


 What did you have in mind here? The error you get in the teaching languages
 when the program starts with #lang ?

 For the latter, yeah.  I imagine a message like:

 You are currently using the Beginning Student, which doesn't support
 files starting with #lang language here.  To enable this, choose the
 use the language declared in the source option in the language
 dialog.

 Of course, that wording suggests that we have a shorter name for that option. 
 :)

 --
 sam th
 sa...@ccs.neu.edu
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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-05 Thread Matthias Felleisen

I second Sam's suggestions. 

-- I would use The Racket Language for the first line of the first item 
then I would have in blue Use #lang to Specify the Desired Dialect 
then I would list some candidates, possible as radio buttons 
* racket/base (for scripting)
* racket (for programming)
* slideshow (for academicing) 
* typed/racket (for power users)
* others (specified manually by programmer)

I agree with Robby that *SLs probably have to reject (module ...) expressions 
EXCEPT that I don't see how they can get hold of the information that the 
programmer wrote down (other than guessing from the second position in 
the module expression but that sounds bad). 






On Nov 5, 2012, at 12:55 PM, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote:

 On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Robby Findler
 ro...@eecs.northwestern.edu wrote:
 There was a discussion a while back on revising the language dialog
 (I've lost track of the thread since I started hacking on the dialog;
 apologies).
 
 The thread starts here:
 http://bugs.racket-lang.org/query/?cmd=viewpr=12642 and continues
 here: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@racket-lang.org/msg05730.html
 
 I've just pushed something based on that discussion. Please let me
 know what you think.
 
 I like the new dialog a lot.  I think it could be improved with some
 of the suggestions made in the thread.  Three I like in particular:
 
 - Make the language for teaching and #lang more parallel.  This
 could help emphasize that the first option is really a language
 choice.  So either change Teaching language to Use a teaching
 language, or change the first option to Standard language (or
 normal or something else like that).
 
 - Add some example #lang lines under the #lang option.  These could
 even be actual choices, which edit the buffer if it's a new one --
 `racket`, `racket/base`, `typed/racket`, `slideshow` are good
 candidates.
 
 - Allow the presence of a #lang line to override the language dialog,
 or at least give an error that's more helpful than currently.
 
 --
 sam th
 sa...@ccs.neu.edu
 _
  Racket Developers list:
  http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev



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Re: [racket-dev] Revision to the Language Dialog

2012-11-05 Thread Robby Findler
The DrRacket-based languages have access to the port. So they can get
the actual characters from it.

Not The Racket (meta-)Language ;)

I think I'll not color things blue, as that would look strange in this
context; indentation seems to serve the same role and I think I can do
something like what you suggest.

Robby

On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 9:14 PM, Matthias Felleisen matth...@ccs.neu.edu wrote:

 I second Sam's suggestions.

 -- I would use The Racket Language for the first line of the first item
 then I would have in blue Use #lang to Specify the Desired Dialect
 then I would list some candidates, possible as radio buttons
 * racket/base (for scripting)
 * racket (for programming)
 * slideshow (for academicing)
 * typed/racket (for power users)
 * others (specified manually by programmer)

 I agree with Robby that *SLs probably have to reject (module ...) expressions
 EXCEPT that I don't see how they can get hold of the information that the
 programmer wrote down (other than guessing from the second position in
 the module expression but that sounds bad).






 On Nov 5, 2012, at 12:55 PM, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote:

 On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Robby Findler
 ro...@eecs.northwestern.edu wrote:
 There was a discussion a while back on revising the language dialog
 (I've lost track of the thread since I started hacking on the dialog;
 apologies).

 The thread starts here:
 http://bugs.racket-lang.org/query/?cmd=viewpr=12642 and continues
 here: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@racket-lang.org/msg05730.html

 I've just pushed something based on that discussion. Please let me
 know what you think.

 I like the new dialog a lot.  I think it could be improved with some
 of the suggestions made in the thread.  Three I like in particular:

 - Make the language for teaching and #lang more parallel.  This
 could help emphasize that the first option is really a language
 choice.  So either change Teaching language to Use a teaching
 language, or change the first option to Standard language (or
 normal or something else like that).

 - Add some example #lang lines under the #lang option.  These could
 even be actual choices, which edit the buffer if it's a new one --
 `racket`, `racket/base`, `typed/racket`, `slideshow` are good
 candidates.

 - Allow the presence of a #lang line to override the language dialog,
 or at least give an error that's more helpful than currently.

 --
 sam th
 sa...@ccs.neu.edu
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