Re: Where are all the commits?
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Dmitry Gusev dmitry.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Dmitry Gusev: +1 (non-binding) I like seeing that new Tapestry committers appear, but looking at git logs I see that (almost) the only core committer is Howard. Well, I am the most invested in things. There's a lot of people in any community who talk the talk but typically very few who walk the walk. I have a very high respect for Howard since most of the time he'll write the code instead of talking about some changes he'd like to have. From this point of view, it appears to me that having Tapestry committer status means you can apply patches, but not develop new functionality in core, which I would expect from Tapestry committer when voting for him. No the problem is committers who are not committing. Tapestry is specifically designed so that it can support a wide number of committers with different skill sets: you don't have to be a bytecode wizard to make significant improvements to the code base. I know I'd appreciate the help! Any committer can work anywhere in the codebase. In case of conflicts we'll take a vote. But even if you tried, it's very hard to keep up with Howard with plain number of commits. You might be interested in fixing your pet peeve at some point but are you going to maintain interest in the project year over year and review other people's commits while working on your things? It's not that Howard is right all the time but by the time you've made your case on the list, he's already incorporated your feedback, refactored the code and added more tests. I've seen it happening multiple times. Most devs are pretty happy with the status quo, that somebody is doing the hard lifting for you or for them. We can see that most of tapestry5 development now is third party development which occurs on GitHub and other separate repositories, resulting in a tapestry-complement libraries, like tapestry5-jquery, tynamo, stitch, tapestry-bootstrap and many other wonderful projects. This is great, though, these projects stand aside from main tapestry development, and most of them appear outdated after new tapestry releases because they released separately from tapestry core. I wouldn't say most but a successful project always creates a lively ecosystem around it. Keeping your stuff in a support library separate from the core has its benefits as well as its drawbacks. A smaller, independent library can evolve much faster but as each of them is implemented for a specific purpose, they'll typically drag behind and don't always support the latest and greatest core release. Also, the bar for bringing in your stuff to tapestry core is way higher than your typical run-of-the-mill github project. As a co-founder and author of multiple Tynamo libraries I can honestly say there's a reason why only one of the tynamo libraries have graduated to tapestry core so far. I'd really like to see more developers of those libraries as Tapestry committers so that they can support their own 3rd party libraries compatibilities as a part of main tapestry development, and may be hold tapestry core releases until all those libraries are up-to-date with new tapestry release. For most libraries, that's just not the right path. Being in the core doesn't automatically mean they'd be somehow more supported. There needs to be a general interest in a specific piece of code before it makes sense to bring it to the core. If there's only one maintainer supporting the library, it is far easier to maintain it outside the core, without having to deal with the sheer size of the core, the unstability that other changes cause, random test failures etc. The great thing about open source is that in any given project, it's pretty easy to pick up the maintenance duties and start sending sending patches if you want a library you care about to be updated. Before you know it, you'll be the committer (and surprisingly often, the only maintainer as well), with others asking you to start doing stuff for them. Kalle On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Kalle Korhonen kalle.o.korho...@gmail.comwrote: Lance Semmens (aka Lance Java) has been one of the most active members on the user list for the past two years. I've personally committed a few patches from him and he is the maintainer of tapestry-stitch ( https://github.com/uklance/tapestry-stitch/), a collection of sample components and concepts for Tapestry 5. Howard has spoke with him privately and he's interested in joining as a committer. Vote to run for a minimum of three days. Kalle Korhonen: +1 (non-binding) -- Dmitry Gusev AnjLab Team http://anjlab.com -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in
Re: Where are all the commits?
Still my question remains: What do you expect from a person when you invite him as a committer to Tapestry project? I mean in each specific case. You just hope that he will do something useful someday with the core codebase or there is some concrete unit of work that you expect him to do? Or maybe that person asked to be committer and has some specific proposals for contribution to the code base? It is just unclear (to me) from the vote description what will the person do (or what he plan to do) as a committer? This maybe unclear because we don't have any roadmap with pool of tasks that should be implemented except for a bunch of long-living JIRA issues. On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Kalle Korhonen kalle.o.korho...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Dmitry Gusev dmitry.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Dmitry Gusev: +1 (non-binding) I like seeing that new Tapestry committers appear, but looking at git logs I see that (almost) the only core committer is Howard. Well, I am the most invested in things. There's a lot of people in any community who talk the talk but typically very few who walk the walk. I have a very high respect for Howard since most of the time he'll write the code instead of talking about some changes he'd like to have. From this point of view, it appears to me that having Tapestry committer status means you can apply patches, but not develop new functionality in core, which I would expect from Tapestry committer when voting for him. No the problem is committers who are not committing. Tapestry is specifically designed so that it can support a wide number of committers with different skill sets: you don't have to be a bytecode wizard to make significant improvements to the code base. I know I'd appreciate the help! Any committer can work anywhere in the codebase. In case of conflicts we'll take a vote. But even if you tried, it's very hard to keep up with Howard with plain number of commits. You might be interested in fixing your pet peeve at some point but are you going to maintain interest in the project year over year and review other people's commits while working on your things? It's not that Howard is right all the time but by the time you've made your case on the list, he's already incorporated your feedback, refactored the code and added more tests. I've seen it happening multiple times. Most devs are pretty happy with the status quo, that somebody is doing the hard lifting for you or for them. We can see that most of tapestry5 development now is third party development which occurs on GitHub and other separate repositories, resulting in a tapestry-complement libraries, like tapestry5-jquery, tynamo, stitch, tapestry-bootstrap and many other wonderful projects. This is great, though, these projects stand aside from main tapestry development, and most of them appear outdated after new tapestry releases because they released separately from tapestry core. I wouldn't say most but a successful project always creates a lively ecosystem around it. Keeping your stuff in a support library separate from the core has its benefits as well as its drawbacks. A smaller, independent library can evolve much faster but as each of them is implemented for a specific purpose, they'll typically drag behind and don't always support the latest and greatest core release. Also, the bar for bringing in your stuff to tapestry core is way higher than your typical run-of-the-mill github project. As a co-founder and author of multiple Tynamo libraries I can honestly say there's a reason why only one of the tynamo libraries have graduated to tapestry core so far. I'd really like to see more developers of those libraries as Tapestry committers so that they can support their own 3rd party libraries compatibilities as a part of main tapestry development, and may be hold tapestry core releases until all those libraries are up-to-date with new tapestry release. For most libraries, that's just not the right path. Being in the core doesn't automatically mean they'd be somehow more supported. There needs to be a general interest in a specific piece of code before it makes sense to bring it to the core. If there's only one maintainer supporting the library, it is far easier to maintain it outside the core, without having to deal with the sheer size of the core, the unstability that other changes cause, random test failures etc. The great thing about open source is that in any given project, it's pretty easy to pick up the maintenance duties and start sending sending patches if you want a library you care about to be updated. Before you know it, you'll be the committer (and surprisingly often, the only maintainer as well), with others asking you to start doing stuff for them. Kalle
Re: Where are all the commits?
Hi Dmitry, I'm not a member of Tapestry team but here is my view as Apache committer. On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Dmitry Gusev dmitry.gu...@gmail.comwrote: Still my question remains: What do you expect from a person when you invite him as a committer to Tapestry project? Nothing. We just hope that (s)he will continue to help the best way (s)he can. A person gains the committer status for what (s)he has done before for the project. Not for promising that (s)he will do something in the future. This could be: helping other users, providing patches, writing docs/books, ... Apache is volunteer based organization so you cannot expect anything from anyone. By inviting a new member the team hope that (s)he will be still active and will help further with the development. But the new member can change her/his job soon after joining and then stop using the technology, so (s)he will not have a reason to do new development but still can help in the forums and in taking decisions about the future. I mean in each specific case. You just hope that he will do something useful someday with the core codebase or there is some concrete unit of work that you expect him to do? Or maybe that person asked to be committer and has some specific proposals for contribution to the code base? It is just unclear (to me) from the vote description what will the person do (or what he plan to do) as a committer? This maybe unclear because we don't have any roadmap with pool of tasks that should be implemented except for a bunch of long-living JIRA issues. On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Kalle Korhonen kalle.o.korho...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Dmitry Gusev dmitry.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Dmitry Gusev: +1 (non-binding) I like seeing that new Tapestry committers appear, but looking at git logs I see that (almost) the only core committer is Howard. Well, I am the most invested in things. There's a lot of people in any community who talk the talk but typically very few who walk the walk. I have a very high respect for Howard since most of the time he'll write the code instead of talking about some changes he'd like to have. From this point of view, it appears to me that having Tapestry committer status means you can apply patches, but not develop new functionality in core, which I would expect from Tapestry committer when voting for him. No the problem is committers who are not committing. Tapestry is specifically designed so that it can support a wide number of committers with different skill sets: you don't have to be a bytecode wizard to make significant improvements to the code base. I know I'd appreciate the help! Any committer can work anywhere in the codebase. In case of conflicts we'll take a vote. But even if you tried, it's very hard to keep up with Howard with plain number of commits. You might be interested in fixing your pet peeve at some point but are you going to maintain interest in the project year over year and review other people's commits while working on your things? It's not that Howard is right all the time but by the time you've made your case on the list, he's already incorporated your feedback, refactored the code and added more tests. I've seen it happening multiple times. Most devs are pretty happy with the status quo, that somebody is doing the hard lifting for you or for them. We can see that most of tapestry5 development now is third party development which occurs on GitHub and other separate repositories, resulting in a tapestry-complement libraries, like tapestry5-jquery, tynamo, stitch, tapestry-bootstrap and many other wonderful projects. This is great, though, these projects stand aside from main tapestry development, and most of them appear outdated after new tapestry releases because they released separately from tapestry core. I wouldn't say most but a successful project always creates a lively ecosystem around it. Keeping your stuff in a support library separate from the core has its benefits as well as its drawbacks. A smaller, independent library can evolve much faster but as each of them is implemented for a specific purpose, they'll typically drag behind and don't always support the latest and greatest core release. Also, the bar for bringing in your stuff to tapestry core is way higher than your typical run-of-the-mill github project. As a co-founder and author of multiple Tynamo libraries I can honestly say there's a reason why only one of the tynamo libraries have graduated to tapestry core so far. I'd really like to see more developers of those libraries as Tapestry committers so that they can support their own 3rd party libraries compatibilities as a part of main
Re: Where are all the commits?
I invite you to read http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles. Tapestry is an Apache Foundation project, so we follow the foundation rules and customs. And one of its core values is meritocracy. I see committer status, besides other things, as a way of rewarding someone's contributions for the project, of saying we trust that person to directly commit code when he/she has some code to contribute. Contribution to an open source project goes beyond commiting code. It's also about community, writing in mailing lists, writing documentation, writing blog posts, evangelization, etc. Bob Harner, for example, made a huge improvement to one of the historically weak points of Tapestry, which is documentation. I don't recall seeing him doing any commit (please correct me if I'm wrong), but I do think he made a huge contribution to the Tapestry project and I'm very grateful to him. I think I got invited for committer and PMC status for almost just my participation in mailing lists. I did just one code contribution, the initial URL rewriting code that was later improved by Robert Ziegler and ended up being deprecated and removed later in favor of the Link Rewriter API (and I'm not complaining, software is supposed to evolve over time). And I still think I'm contributing to the project. I'll now answer your questions with my opinions and I'm not representing the project or any other people with my answers. On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 06:36:34 -0300, Dmitry Gusev dmitry.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Still my question remains: What do you expect from a person when you invite him as a committer to Tapestry project? I expect this person to contribute the project in some way. I mean in each specific case. I don't expect anything specific. You just hope that he will do something useful someday with the core codebase or there is some concrete unit of work that you expect him to do? First option. Or maybe that person asked to be committer and has some specific proposals for contribution to the code base? I don't recall any person asking to be a committer. Since I'm one and started participating in these discussions, all committers and PMC members were invited, not a single asking for it. -- Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Where are all the commits?
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Dmitry Gusev dmitry.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Dmitry Gusev: +1 (non-binding) I like seeing that new Tapestry committers appear, but looking at git logs I see that (almost) the only core committer is Howard. Well, I am the most invested in things. Other committers do some rare, though valuable, fixes and apply patches from JIRA. And that is valuable in and off itself. From this point of view, it appears to me that having Tapestry committer status means you can apply patches, but not develop new functionality in core, which I would expect from Tapestry committer when voting for him. No the problem is committers who are not committing. Tapestry is specifically designed so that it can support a wide number of committers with different skill sets: you don't have to be a bytecode wizard to make significant improvements to the code base. I know I'd appreciate the help! We can see that most of tapestry5 development now is third party development which occurs on GitHub and other separate repositories, resulting in a tapestry-complement libraries, like tapestry5-jquery, tynamo, stitch, tapestry-bootstrap and many other wonderful projects. This is great, though, these projects stand aside from main tapestry development, and most of them appear outdated after new tapestry releases because they released separately from tapestry core. I'd really like to see more developers of those libraries as Tapestry committers so that they can support their own 3rd party libraries compatibilities as a part of main tapestry development, and may be hold tapestry core releases until all those libraries are up-to-date with new tapestry release. We are open to active members of the community requesting committer status. The worst result from that would be a reminder about Apache standards for earning commit privileges. That doesn't mean we should open up the floodgates! Worse than few commits or committers would be dump-and-run committers; we had some of that in the T4 days. Not sure if this is the right place to ask, we can create a separate thread for this, but Lance, can you tell us what are you planning to do as a Tapestry committer? Is there any roadmap that you will follow? On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Kalle Korhonen kalle.o.korho...@gmail.comwrote: Lance Semmens (aka Lance Java) has been one of the most active members on the user list for the past two years. I've personally committed a few patches from him and he is the maintainer of tapestry-stitch ( https://github.com/uklance/tapestry-stitch/), a collection of sample components and concepts for Tapestry 5. Howard has spoke with him privately and he's interested in joining as a committer. Vote to run for a minimum of three days. Kalle Korhonen: +1 (non-binding) -- Dmitry Gusev AnjLab Team http://anjlab.com -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com
