Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On 2014-08-27 1:53 AM, Nicholas Nethercote wrote: On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 5:49 AM, Zack Weinberg za...@panix.com wrote: Seems to me there might be value in applying video controls-style controls to animated imgs *in general* -- not just for mobile. That's a great idea! Looks like that's https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=560084 . ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On 8/26/14 6:43 AM, Patrick McManus wrote: I think it would make a lot of sense to have an explicit low bandwidth mode that did stuff like this, instead of trying to address it piecemeal. There's all kinds of stuff that can consume bandwidth, and if we think it's a real concern then let's directly address it. I think that's a pretty cool idea - I'm on vacation for another week, can you file a bug and cc: me? Or I'll do it when I come back. This would be bug 859998. Justin ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Justin Dolske dol...@mozilla.com wrote: I think it would make a lot of sense to have an explicit low bandwidth mode that did stuff like this, instead of trying to address it piecemeal. There's all kinds of stuff that can consume bandwidth, and if we think it's a real concern then let's directly address it. I think that's a pretty cool idea - I'm on vacation for another week, can you file a bug and cc: me? Or I'll do it when I come back. There are a couple technical gotchas involved in that - basically to do it effectively you need to open a connection with a small window (which is fine).. if you want the connection to run faster you need to open the window back up - and some msft OS's (actually maybe all of them) won't let you open it past 64KB if you start with an intentionally small one and that's not enough for full line rate on a lot of networks. But that should be manageable for this use case. ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On 2014-08-25 1:04 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: That said, if you have ideas for how we can do even better, definitely speak up. I'd be happy to stop downloading animated gifs over a certain size over mobile connections if we can have some UI which lets the user resume the download. Seems to me there might be value in applying video controls-style controls to animated imgs *in general* -- not just for mobile. ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 5:49 AM, Zack Weinberg za...@panix.com wrote: Seems to me there might be value in applying video controls-style controls to animated imgs *in general* -- not just for mobile. That's a great idea! Nick ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On 8/22/14 10:17 AM, Hubert Figuière wrote: On 21/08/14 01:29 PM, Wesley Johnston wrote: Summary: We've had some complaints at times about videos autoplaying on mobile devices when sites request autoplay. [...] Autoplay waste bandwidth, whether mobile or wifi. In some case it is more serious than other. I think it would make a lot of sense to have an explicit low bandwidth mode that did stuff like this, instead of trying to address it piecemeal. There's all kinds of stuff that can consume bandwidth, and if we think it's a real concern then let's directly address it. Consider the increasingly popular gfycat.com. It offers GIF hosting with reduced bandwidth, by encoding as WebM. Example: http://www.gfycat.com/SpectacularPerfectCygnet.html (910K WEBM) http://giant.gfycat.com/SpectacularPerfectCygnet.gif (10.9MB GIF) Autoplay makes complete sense in this context, just as every browser will autoplay a GIF. If the concern is actually bandwidth, then it would be better to avoid/abort loading video _and_ images above some arbitrary threshold. Why penalize a 910K video file but not an images 12x as large? Should be the other way around! Justin ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:03 AM, Justin Dolske dol...@mozilla.com wrote: On 8/22/14 10:17 AM, Hubert Figuière wrote: On 21/08/14 01:29 PM, Wesley Johnston wrote: Summary: We've had some complaints at times about videos autoplaying on mobile devices when sites request autoplay. [...] Autoplay waste bandwidth, whether mobile or wifi. In some case it is more serious than other. I think it would make a lot of sense to have an explicit low bandwidth mode that did stuff like this, instead of trying to address it piecemeal. There's all kinds of stuff that can consume bandwidth, and if we think it's a real concern then let's directly address it. Consider the increasingly popular gfycat.com. It offers GIF hosting with reduced bandwidth, by encoding as WebM. Example: http://www.gfycat.com/SpectacularPerfectCygnet.html (910K WEBM) http://giant.gfycat.com/SpectacularPerfectCygnet.gif (10.9MB GIF) Autoplay makes complete sense in this context, just as every browser will autoplay a GIF. If the concern is actually bandwidth, then it would be better to avoid/abort loading video _and_ images above some arbitrary threshold. Why penalize a 910K video file but not an images 12x as large? Should be the other way around! In practice most videos are larger than most gifs. Yes, there are exceptions, and yes, there are other features that we could add to further reduce bandwidth usage, but we shouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good. Especially given that autoplay was explicitly added in order for UAs to implement policies such as the ones discussed here. It seems silly of us not to take advantage of that. If gfycat absolutely wants to autoplay their videos, they can still use the .play() API. That's what the spec says to do. That said, if you have ideas for how we can do even better, definitely speak up. I'd be happy to stop downloading animated gifs over a certain size over mobile connections if we can have some UI which lets the user resume the download. / Jonas ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On 8/24/2014 6:21 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: FWIW, to the best of my knowledge WebRTC calls do not require a click. But you have to click on the door-hanger to share camera/mic (or be on a site you have already trusted not to abuse the permissions). -Dan Veditz ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Daniel Veditz dved...@mozilla.com wrote: On 8/24/2014 6:21 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: FWIW, to the best of my knowledge WebRTC calls do not require a click. But you have to click on the door-hanger to share camera/mic (or be on a site you have already trusted not to abuse the permissions). That's for outgoing media. Incoming media works fine without any permissions grant. -Ekr ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:12 PM, Robert O'Callahan rob...@ocallahan.org wrote: On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Jared Hirsch 6...@mozilla.com wrote: FWIW, Safari on iOS doesn't allow autoplay or preload, and also only initiates play/load on a user-triggered event (so, pages can't use JS to fake a click). The reason given in the docs[1] is that users might be charged for that bandwidth. Web developers hate that policy and do crazy things to try to get around it. For example, in a game with sound effects instead of using individual audio elements to play sounds, they put all the sounds in one file and when the user clicks to start playing they start playing that file and seek around in it to play an effect at a particular time. It's horrible. FWIW, to the best of my knowledge WebRTC calls do not require a click. -Ekr ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 7:51 PM, Nick Alexander nalexan...@mozilla.com wrote: In general, I'm in favour of not autoplaying at all on mobile devices. Me too! Anecdotal: recently I woke up my wife when I was trying to overcome sleeplessness by browsing my phone a little bit (a questionable method of doing so, but hey!) and I ran into some very loud ad that started autoplaying (this was on my home Wifi). Cheers, Dirkjan ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On 22.08.2014 09:29, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote: On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 7:51 PM, Nick Alexander nalexan...@mozilla.com wrote: In general, I'm in favour of not autoplaying at all on mobile devices. Me too! Anecdotal: recently I woke up my wife when I was trying to overcome sleeplessness by browsing my phone a little bit (a questionable method of doing so, but hey!) and I ran into some very loud ad that started autoplaying (this was on my home Wifi). ... which of course could also happen with a laptop ... ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On 21/08/14 01:29 PM, Wesley Johnston wrote: Summary: We've had some complaints at times about videos autoplaying on mobile devices when sites request autoplay. Just on mobile? I filed this a while ago. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=980939 It doesn't seem to have gained traction until I saw this. Autoplay is annoying Autoplay waste bandwidth, whether mobile or wifi. In some case it is more serious than other. Autoplay disturb people. Since it is possible it gets abused. Etc. Hub ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
FWIW, Safari on iOS doesn't allow autoplay or preload, and also only initiates play/load on a user-triggered event (so, pages can't use JS to fake a click). The reason given in the docs[1] is that users might be charged for that bandwidth. Cheers, Jared [1] https://developer.apple.com/library/safari/documentation/audiovideo/conceptual/using_html5_audio_video/device-specificconsiderations/device-specificconsiderations.html On Aug 22, 2014, at 10:17 AM, Hubert Figuière h...@mozilla.com wrote: On 21/08/14 01:29 PM, Wesley Johnston wrote: Summary: We've had some complaints at times about videos autoplaying on mobile devices when sites request autoplay. Just on mobile? I filed this a while ago. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=980939 It doesn't seem to have gained traction until I saw this. Autoplay is annoying Autoplay waste bandwidth, whether mobile or wifi. In some case it is more serious than other. Autoplay disturb people. Since it is possible it gets abused. Etc. Hub ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
For reference, our preload code on Android and B2G is also a bit complex. i.e. If the page doesn't say anything about what to preload, we preload nothing. If they ask for preload=auto we default to only preload metadata. - Wes - Original Message - From: Jared Hirsch 6...@mozilla.com To: Hubert Figuière h...@mozilla.com Cc: dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 10:59:12 AM Subject: Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices? FWIW, Safari on iOS doesn't allow autoplay or preload, and also only initiates play/load on a user-triggered event (so, pages can't use JS to fake a click). The reason given in the docs[1] is that users might be charged for that bandwidth. Cheers, Jared [1] https://developer.apple.com/library/safari/documentation/audiovideo/conceptual/using_html5_audio_video/device-specificconsiderations/device-specificconsiderations.html On Aug 22, 2014, at 10:17 AM, Hubert Figuière h...@mozilla.com wrote: On 21/08/14 01:29 PM, Wesley Johnston wrote: Summary: We've had some complaints at times about videos autoplaying on mobile devices when sites request autoplay. Just on mobile? I filed this a while ago. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=980939 It doesn't seem to have gained traction until I saw this. Autoplay is annoying Autoplay waste bandwidth, whether mobile or wifi. In some case it is more serious than other. Autoplay disturb people. Since it is possible it gets abused. Etc. Hub ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 10:29:43AM -0700, Wesley Johnston wrote: Summary: We've had some complaints at times about videos autoplaying on mobile devices Note that laptops are both desktop and mobile devices. That is, someone could very well using a desktop build on a device using a mobile-carrier-backed network (either by tethering or directly). Mike ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Mike Hommey m...@glandium.org wrote: On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 10:29:43AM -0700, Wesley Johnston wrote: Summary: We've had some complaints at times about videos autoplaying on mobile devices Note that laptops are both desktop and mobile devices. That is, someone could very well using a desktop build on a device using a mobile-carrier-backed network (either by tethering or directly). Indeed. Android-based wifi hotspots actually broadcast that they provide a tethered mobile connection. So we could detect this and provide the same treatment on desktop. I filed this yesterday which is very related. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1057169 / Jonas ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Jared Hirsch 6...@mozilla.com wrote: FWIW, Safari on iOS doesn't allow autoplay or preload, and also only initiates play/load on a user-triggered event (so, pages can't use JS to fake a click). The reason given in the docs[1] is that users might be charged for that bandwidth. Web developers hate that policy and do crazy things to try to get around it. For example, in a game with sound effects instead of using individual audio elements to play sounds, they put all the sounds in one file and when the user clicks to start playing they start playing that file and seek around in it to play an effect at a particular time. It's horrible. Rob -- oIo otoeololo oyooouo otohoaoto oaonoyooonoeo owohooo oioso oaonogoroyo owoiotoho oao oboroootohoeoro oooro osoiosotoeoro owoiololo oboeo osouobojoeocoto otooo ojouodogomoeonoto.o oAogoaoiono,o oaonoyooonoeo owohooo osoaoyoso otooo oao oboroootohoeoro oooro osoiosotoeoro,o o‘oRoaocoao,o’o oioso oaonosowoeoroaoboloeo otooo otohoeo ocooouoroto.o oAonodo oaonoyooonoeo owohooo osoaoyoso,o o‘oYooouo ofolo!o’o owoiololo oboeo oiono odoaonogoeoro ooofo otohoeo ofoioroeo ooofo ohoeololo. ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
Hi Wes, On 2014-08-21, 10:29 AM, Wesley Johnston wrote: Summary: We've had some complaints at times about videos autoplaying on mobile devices when sites request autoplay. We should be more mindful of users and try to avoid using data if they don't want it. Sites should be doing this for us, but we've encountered pages where that is not the case. I'm proposing that we at least disable this if the audio/video has to be pulled over a (paid?) mobile network. It may, because of the context that phones are used, be something we'd disable on mobile in general. i.e. The bug report mentions someone using their phone in a quiet setting at home. Theres also some power usage concerns that this would help with. The spec allows this explicitly Authors are urged to use the autoplay attribute rather than using script to trigger automatic playback, as this allows the user to override the automatic playback when it is not desired. Sites (like games) that want to override this could still use scripting to autoplay (and probably already do). In general, I'm in favour of not autoplaying at all on mobile devices. Link to standard: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/embedded-content-0.html#attr-media-autoplay Platform coverage: Where will this be available? Android, Firefox OS Estimated or target release: Aiming for Firefox 35. Preference behind which this will be implemented: Not sure. We already have a boolean media.autoplay.enabled. I think the best thing would probably be to make it a tri-state.pref. Why is it not sufficient to just set media.autoplay.enabled=false on mobile platforms? (MXR suggests autoplay is enabled on all platforms.) Is the concern that disabling autoplay too widely will lead to widespread scripted-autoplay, reducing user control yet further? Can you be explicit about the three states of this proposed tri-state pref? Nick ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
In general, I'm in favour of not autoplaying at all on mobile devices. I think I was just trying to address the spec's statement of overriding when not desired. I don't want to punish sites that are reading that and trying to be good citizens. For instance, video elements are actually a good solution if you want an animated background on a site, and provide good fallbacks when they're disabled. I want to at least discuss making a good faith effort to only disable it when necessary. But I won't argue that we can have a perfect heuristic for that either (I'm not sure how we know if you're in a library). Maybe phone is the best we can do for users. Maybe we need to discuss disabling audio (from audio or video elements) and video separately? Is the concern that disabling autoplay too widely will lead to widespread scripted-autoplay, reducing user control yet further? My concern is that this may break sites without providing much feedback to them about why. I'd like to minimize bustage/confusion for developers, as well as doing our best to respect their requests. Can you be explicit about the three states of this proposed tri-state pref? I was thinking something like: Enabled - Always works Disabled - Never works Dynamic - Up to UA. Technically, I'd be fine putting this behind Enabled, but if we want the dynamic behaviour behind a pref, it seemed simpler to add it here than to start dealing with combinatorials of different prefs. ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?
In general I think this sounds like a good idea. Not honoring autoplay when on a mobile connection sounds good. I'm unsure what the best behavior is on a mobile device when on a wifi connection, so I don't feel strongly either way there. On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Wesley Johnston wjohns...@mozilla.com wrote: Can you be explicit about the three states of this proposed tri-state pref? I was thinking something like: Enabled - Always works Disabled - Never works Dynamic - Up to UA. I don't understand this. We are the UA, so what does dynamic actually mean? Making it a tristate for always, never and only on wifi would make sense to me if that's what you mean? / Jonas ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
