Re: Proprietary search engines
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:30 PM, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to wrote: On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 17:20:23 -0400, Al Dunsmuir al.dunsm...@sympatico.ca wrote: Please do not ignore that the browser is there for the user to use, not for Fedora to stream information in spite of the user's wishes. Nor for Mozilla to track its users. There shouldn't be a start page at all as it opens a connection back to the start page server before you (easily) have a chance to disable it. It is especially annoying that that after updates you still get some Mozilla update page (that at fisrt glance appears to be from a remote server, though maybe there is some trickery going on) even though the start page is disabled. I would think respecting the privacy of our users would be a good reason for having no start page the default. I actually don't use any start page and haven't done so for years. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 10:52:04PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: Yeah, there really doesn't seem any particular reason for the search box to be there, unless Google was paying us for it to be there or something. Fedora gets to build and ship a slightly-modified version of Firefox while retaining the Firefox name due to a distribution partner agreement with Mozilla. Mozilla gets their money from Google. I don't think we *can* make it something else -- it's part of the price we are paying in order to use the non-Free name. See: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox_Rebranding:Worksheet#Start_page -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On Tue, 2010-08-31 at 08:19 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: Fedora gets to build and ship a slightly-modified version of Firefox while retaining the Firefox name due to a distribution partner agreement with Mozilla. Mozilla gets their money from Google. I don't think we *can* make it something else -- it's part of the price we are paying in order to use the non-Free name. See: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox_Rebranding:Worksheet#Start_page Good catch. More fallout of the Mozilla trademarks... (Am I starting to sound like Kevin?) -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On Tue, 2010-08-31 at 08:39 -0400, Matt McCutchen wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-31 at 08:19 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: Fedora gets to build and ship a slightly-modified version of Firefox while retaining the Firefox name due to a distribution partner agreement with Mozilla. Mozilla gets their money from Google. I don't think we *can* make it something else -- it's part of the price we are paying in order to use the non-Free name. See: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox_Rebranding:Worksheet#Start_page Good catch. More fallout of the Mozilla trademarks... (Am I starting to sound like Kevin?) It doesn't seem to be an unavoidable requirement, it says: If you proposed Start/Home Page is not similar to the existing Firefox Start Page, please be prepared to provide a rationale for the change, and how it would benefit the end-user. I think we could manage such a rationale. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On Tue, 2010-08-31 at 08:27 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: It doesn't seem to be an unavoidable requirement, it says: If you proposed Start/Home Page is not similar to the existing Firefox Start Page, please be prepared to provide a rationale for the change, and how it would benefit the end-user. I think we could manage such a rationale. We can definitely make a rationale for having a bunch of Fedora resources on the start page, but our rationale for omitting a Google search box, it's redundant and promotes a proprietary service, is not a line of reasoning I would expect Mozilla to accept. Then again, they may calculate that they are better off compromising on this issue in order to keep Fedora using their trademarks. -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On Tue, 2010-08-31 at 16:59 -0400, Matt McCutchen wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-31 at 08:27 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: It doesn't seem to be an unavoidable requirement, it says: If you proposed Start/Home Page is not similar to the existing Firefox Start Page, please be prepared to provide a rationale for the change, and how it would benefit the end-user. I think we could manage such a rationale. We can definitely make a rationale for having a bunch of Fedora resources on the start page, but our rationale for omitting a Google search box, it's redundant and promotes a proprietary service, is not a line of reasoning I would expect Mozilla to accept. Then again, they may calculate that they are better off compromising on this issue in order to keep Fedora using their trademarks. 'It's redundant' seems fairly reasonable to me. IIRC, the presence of a search box on the start page is a hangover from when there *wasn't* one in the browser chrome by default. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 4:59:27 PM, Matt wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-31 at 08:27 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: It doesn't seem to be an unavoidable requirement, it says: If you proposed Start/Home Page is not similar to the existing Firefox Start Page, please be prepared to provide a rationale for the change, and how it would benefit the end-user. I think we could manage such a rationale. We can definitely make a rationale for having a bunch of Fedora resources on the start page, but our rationale for omitting a Google search box, it's redundant and promotes a proprietary service, is not a line of reasoning I would expect Mozilla to accept. Then again, they may calculate that they are better off compromising on this issue in order to keep Fedora using their trademarks. -- Matt Personally, I _DO_ want to have something close to the standard Google search pages as my home page. On my XP systems, I use the standard Mozilla start page. Put too much crap on there (and yes, if I do not want to look for a Fedora resource, too much additional information WILL fit that classification), and I will change the Fedora start page to either the standard Mozilla page or just www.google.ca with just a few keystrokes. At that point, you have lost me as an audience, unless I specifically decide to use the handy Fedora bookmarks provided. Shocking? No. I want to use my computer, and most of the time I bring up a browser session to do searches, or use a bookmark on my toolbar. Stupid UI innovations like hiding my toolbar in the FF 4 beta are quickly reverted to the way _I_ want my browser. Please do not ignore that the browser is there for the user to use, not for Fedora to stream information in spite of the user's wishes. This is Linux, not some Microsoft (or Apple) we know what is best for you system. Al -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 17:20:23 -0400, Al Dunsmuir al.dunsm...@sympatico.ca wrote: Please do not ignore that the browser is there for the user to use, not for Fedora to stream information in spite of the user's wishes. Nor for Mozilla to track its users. There shouldn't be a start page at all as it opens a connection back to the start page server before you (easily) have a chance to disable it. It is especially annoying that that after updates you still get some Mozilla update page (that at fisrt glance appears to be from a remote server, though maybe there is some trickery going on) even though the start page is disabled. I would think respecting the privacy of our users would be a good reason for having no start page the default. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On Tue, 2010-08-31 at 16:30 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote: On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 17:20:23 -0400, Al Dunsmuir al.dunsm...@sympatico.ca wrote: Please do not ignore that the browser is there for the user to use, not for Fedora to stream information in spite of the user's wishes. Nor for Mozilla to track its users. There shouldn't be a start page at all as it opens a connection back to the start page server before you (easily) have a chance to disable it. It is especially annoying that that after updates you still get some Mozilla update page (that at fisrt glance appears to be from a remote server, though maybe there is some trickery going on) even though the start page is disabled. The update page is remote. If you want to disable it, set startup.homepage_override_url to the empty string. There is also startup.homepage_welcome_url for the first run of the browser. I'm not commenting on what the default should be. -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 17:46:53 -0400, Matt McCutchen m...@mattmccutchen.net wrote: The update page is remote. If you want to disable it, set startup.homepage_override_url to the empty string. There is also startup.homepage_welcome_url for the first run of the browser. Thanks! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On Tue, 2010-08-31 at 17:20 -0400, Al Dunsmuir wrote: Please do not ignore that the browser is there for the user to use, not for Fedora to stream information in spite of the user's wishes. This is Linux, not some Microsoft (or Apple) we know what is best for you system. Al I couldn't have summed it up better myself. That's exactly right. The browser is there for the user sitting at his desk and staring at the screen. The user. And Fedora considering forcing and flooding the home page with their own informational crap, 90% of it probably useless, makes us just as bad as Google. Don't you think it's kind of hypocritical? I can see the many valid points that have been made with this discussion, but to me it seems a bit tacky to even be discussing the issue to this degree. And I revert from using the term issue because I sincerely don't believe there is one. I think many here are forgetting that Google is our friend. And Google Inc. as a company not only support free and open source software but they are also part of that very community and have done their fair share for the FOSS community over the years. And when you think about it, sure Google Search is proprietary code and all, but it's pretty amazing what Google let you do with their tools and apps, all for free! I'm sure an exception can be made for such a small thing. Google Inc. seems to be treated as an enemy of FOSS here, but they're not. And I think it's disgraceful that's how you're all painting a unsubstantiated target on them. My solution to a problem that never was; amend the policy guidelines and move on to some more serious issues. Regards -- Chris Jones chrisjo...@comcen.com.au -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On Mon, 2010-08-30 at 02:05 +0100, Athmane Madjoudj wrote: On 08/30/2010 01:52 AM, Conan Kudo (ニール・ゴンパ) wrote: So why would the policy apply to the search box on http://start.fedoraproject.org , which is just meant for users and is not really a piece of infrastructure? -- Matt Because some people are rather overzealous about stuff like that? Why should we use a search engine in start.fedoraproject.org, we can just put a nice page with useful information like: how users get help, notification, etc ...; BTW firefox has search built-in (in the top right corner), Epiphany too (address bar can be used as search box), I don't know about Konqueror. Yeah, there really doesn't seem any particular reason for the search box to be there, unless Google was paying us for it to be there or something. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Proprietary search engines (was: Fedora Notifications System.)
On Sun, 2010-08-29 at 14:13 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Manuel Escudero wrote: 3) We're already using a GOOGLE SEARCH BOX!! in http://start.fedoraproject.org/ ¿Do you have the code for this one? NO. And Fedora Project is using it. I'm sharing a Fedora Solution an applied search engine for the community. and I can add as many collaborators as I want, I can share my code, I can Modify it, it's more opensource that the one that we're already using... Just to make this clear on 3). We grandfathered that in, meaning it is now against policy to do more of it but we didn't remove it because it had historical significance. Though I believe we're in the works to replace the start page with something else. Interesting. I can understand not wanting to promote a proprietary search engine on the Fedora start page, but if the idea is that Fedora users and contributors should be able to avoid using them altogether, I think that's currently pretty unrealistic. People have questions all the time, and being able to search the whole web for an answer at once is great. Without a web search, one has to do a separate search of each data source (wiki, bug database, mailing lists) of each relevant project, assuming those search features even exist and that it is possible to identify all the relevant projects in advance (harder when searching for work to reuse). -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines (was: Fedora Notifications System.)
2010/8/29 Matt McCutchen m...@mattmccutchen.net On Sun, 2010-08-29 at 14:13 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Manuel Escudero wrote: 3) We're already using a GOOGLE SEARCH BOX!! in http://start.fedoraproject.org/ ¿Do you have the code for this one? NO. And Fedora Project is using it. I'm sharing a Fedora Solution an applied search engine for the community. and I can add as many collaborators as I want, I can share my code, I can Modify it, it's more opensource that the one that we're already using... Just to make this clear on 3). We grandfathered that in, meaning it is now against policy to do more of it but we didn't remove it because it had historical significance. Though I believe we're in the works to replace the start page with something else. Interesting. I can understand not wanting to promote a proprietary search engine on the Fedora start page, but if the idea is that Fedora users and contributors should be able to avoid using them altogether, I think that's currently pretty unrealistic. People have questions all the time, and being able to search the whole web for an answer at once is great. Without a web search, one has to do a separate search of each data source (wiki, bug database, mailing lists) of each relevant project, assuming those search features even exist and that it is possible to identify all the relevant projects in advance (harder when searching for work to reuse). -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN... With Fedora's engine I'm giving you the chance of having something more opensource and also more specific and useful for the fedora users who want to search things all around the web. -- -Manuel Escudero- Linux User #509052 @GWave: jmlev...@googlewave.com @Blogger: http://www.blogxenode.tk/ (Xenode Systems Blog) PGP/GnuPG: DAE3 82E9 D68E 7AE4 ED31 1F8F 4AF4 D00C 50E7 ABC6 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On 08/30/2010 01:01 AM, Matt McCutchen wrote: Interesting. I can understand not wanting to promote a proprietary search engine on the Fedora start page, but if the idea is that Fedora users and contributors should be able to avoid using them altogether, I think that's currently pretty unrealistic. I don't think there is any expectation for users. This is just a Fedora infrastructure policy so that we don't end up relying on things that we can't build upon or fork if necessary. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On Mon, 2010-08-30 at 02:46 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 08/30/2010 01:01 AM, Matt McCutchen wrote: Interesting. I can understand not wanting to promote a proprietary search engine on the Fedora start page, but if the idea is that Fedora users and contributors should be able to avoid using them altogether, I think that's currently pretty unrealistic. I don't think there is any expectation for users. This is just a Fedora infrastructure policy so that we don't end up relying on things that we can't build upon or fork if necessary. So why would the policy apply to the search box on http://start.fedoraproject.org , which is just meant for users and is not really a piece of infrastructure? -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 7:29 PM, Matt McCutchen m...@mattmccutchen.netwrote: On Mon, 2010-08-30 at 02:46 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 08/30/2010 01:01 AM, Matt McCutchen wrote: Interesting. I can understand not wanting to promote a proprietary search engine on the Fedora start page, but if the idea is that Fedora users and contributors should be able to avoid using them altogether, I think that's currently pretty unrealistic. I don't think there is any expectation for users. This is just a Fedora infrastructure policy so that we don't end up relying on things that we can't build upon or fork if necessary. So why would the policy apply to the search box on http://start.fedoraproject.org , which is just meant for users and is not really a piece of infrastructure? -- Matt Because some people are rather overzealous about stuff like that? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proprietary search engines
On 08/30/2010 01:52 AM, Conan Kudo (ニール・ゴンパ) wrote: So why would the policy apply to the search box on http://start.fedoraproject.org , which is just meant for users and is not really a piece of infrastructure? -- Matt Because some people are rather overzealous about stuff like that? Why should we use a search engine in start.fedoraproject.org, we can just put a nice page with useful information like: how users get help, notification, etc ...; BTW firefox has search built-in (in the top right corner), Epiphany too (address bar can be used as search box), I don't know about Konqueror. Best regards. -- Athmane Madjoudj -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
