Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Hi On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > LOL… Any bug report about one of GNOME's intentional "improvements" gets > instantly closed as INVALID, NOTABUG or WONTFIX (or as a duplicate of an > existing bug in one of these states). > This is of course a false generalization. Some of them do. Some of them don't and others get reverted of fixed in other ways. It is a more nuanced issue. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Mathieu Bridon wrote: > That's called "reporting a bug", and (as far as I'm concerned) it > actually works, especially when you're specific. You should try it: > https://bugzilla.gnome.org LOL… Any bug report about one of GNOME's intentional "improvements" gets instantly closed as INVALID, NOTABUG or WONTFIX (or as a duplicate of an existing bug in one of these states). Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 18 February 2013 12:57, Mathieu Bridon wrote: > On 02/18/2013 07:58 PM, Ian Malone wrote: >> >> On 18 February 2013 10:37, Olav Vitters wrote: >> >> >>> I'm trying to collect feedback, I'd expect some respect instead of one >>> liners. Loads of people working in Fedora don't follow devel@ because of >>> the attitude displayed here. I often get questioned wtf I spend the time >>> to proceed anyway. >>> >> >> It turns out to be very difficult to express a less than favourable >> opinion about an aspect of Gnome without getting drawn into a wide >> ranging discussion which ends with you being labelled as a Gnome hater >> whose opinion can therefore be discounted. > > > That's just not true. > > Many people manage very well to express less than favourable opinions about > GNOME while remaining respectful and courteous. > > That's called "reporting a bug", and (as far as I'm concerned) it actually > works, especially when you're specific. You should try it: > https://bugzilla.gnome.org > It turns out to be very difficult to express a less than favourable opinion about an aspect of Gnome without getting drawn into a wide ranging discussion which ends with you being labelled as a Gnome hater whose opinion can therefore be discounted. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 02/18/2013 07:58 PM, Ian Malone wrote: On 18 February 2013 10:37, Olav Vitters wrote: I'm trying to collect feedback, I'd expect some respect instead of one liners. Loads of people working in Fedora don't follow devel@ because of the attitude displayed here. I often get questioned wtf I spend the time to proceed anyway. It turns out to be very difficult to express a less than favourable opinion about an aspect of Gnome without getting drawn into a wide ranging discussion which ends with you being labelled as a Gnome hater whose opinion can therefore be discounted. That's just not true. Many people manage very well to express less than favourable opinions about GNOME while remaining respectful and courteous. That's called "reporting a bug", and (as far as I'm concerned) it actually works, especially when you're specific. You should try it: https://bugzilla.gnome.org -- Mathieu -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 18 February 2013 10:37, Olav Vitters wrote: > I'm trying to collect feedback, I'd expect some respect instead of one > liners. Loads of people working in Fedora don't follow devel@ because of > the attitude displayed here. I often get questioned wtf I spend the time > to proceed anyway. > It turns out to be very difficult to express a less than favourable opinion about an aspect of Gnome without getting drawn into a wide ranging discussion which ends with you being labelled as a Gnome hater whose opinion can therefore be discounted. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 02:14:30PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Olav Vitters wrote: > > 1. Show sessions before selecting/entering the user: > >Means basically including something like 'default session' or > >'previous session' > > That's how the rest of the world does it… > > > 2. Show sessions after selecting/entering the user: > >Means you can show the actual session that will be chosen. > > > > There are tradeoffs between both of them, GDM chose #2, > > … but of course GNOME just had to be different. If you don't have anything constructive to add, then don't respond. I mentioned the aim: what is usability wise best. I mentioned that it might not be best, tradeoffs taken, and how to make changes. A one liner about: "but of course GNOME just had to be different" I just a bit easy. Try challenging what I said instead of a one liner. Try maybe showing a usability story where the chosen solution is not great. I mean, try something in the bits I said earlier. Regarding "had to be different": I already explained that it was not about "had to be different". Moreover, wtf is wrong with trying to go for trying a better solution? Not like things are stuck forever, as I already indicated. I'm trying to collect feedback, I'd expect some respect instead of one liners. Loads of people working in Fedora don't follow devel@ because of the attitude displayed here. I often get questioned wtf I spend the time to proceed anyway. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
> You have two possibilities: > > 1. Show sessions before selecting/entering the user: >Means basically including something like 'default session' or >'previous session' > 2. Show sessions after selecting/entering the user: >Means you can show the actual session that will be chosen. > > There are tradeoffs between both of them, GDM chose #2, Well, that is only one half of the story. gdm actually moved from #1 to #2 (IIRC with the gnome2->gnome3 switch), making people wonder why the desktop selection disappeared ... Took me a while to figure this (and other user-specific settings like language) just shows up after picking the user, especially as this is just a small change at the bottom of the screen while you are focusing to the center where you just typed the password and where gdm now asks for the password. cheers, Gerd -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Hi On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > I guess in this case the principle "never ascribe to malice what can be > adequately explained by incompetence" applies. ;-) > I guess you are being sarcastic but assuming incompetence is slightly better than assuming malice but the best option is to just ask why that is in the case. In this situation though, we already have a explanation and it is just a different design decision. I suppose you won't be happy with it unless it is the same behavior as KDE but we already have one KDE and that is enough. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 02/15/2013 09:17 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: >> Several people on #fedora-kde see this UI as a way to push the agenda >> of making users not even realize there's an alternative to GNOME > > Those "several people" have poor attitude when they assume malice. It is > a poisonous thing to do I guess in this case the principle "never ascribe to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence" applies. ;-) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Olav Vitters wrote: > 1. Show sessions before selecting/entering the user: >Means basically including something like 'default session' or >'previous session' That's how the rest of the world does it… > 2. Show sessions after selecting/entering the user: >Means you can show the actual session that will be chosen. > > There are tradeoffs between both of them, GDM chose #2, … but of course GNOME just had to be different. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 12:15:10AM +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > What about users *without* password? It's insecure (in most cases), but > possible. That is a known tradeoff/bug. IMO this is a case of 'it hurts when I do this'. Tradeoff is how often you have a nicer experience (showing the right session that will be selected) vs use cases that are broken or less nice. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 06:20:52PM -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote: > My understanding is that the session list is dependent on the user > selected. At least the default session is, so it made sense to wait > until a user is chosen before showing the list. Using this you can show the correct default session for that user. You have two possibilities: 1. Show sessions before selecting/entering the user: Means basically including something like 'default session' or 'previous session' 2. Show sessions after selecting/entering the user: Means you can show the actual session that will be chosen. There are tradeoffs between both of them, GDM chose #2, making some stuff nicer, some stuff worse. It would be nice if someone would do a usability study on this (maybe session selector should be more obvious or something… thinking of maybe a list instead of a dropdown). -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 02/15/2013 09:17 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Several people on #fedora-kde see this UI as a way to push the agenda of making users not even realize there's an alternative to GNOME Those "several people" have poor attitude when they assume malice. It is a poisonous thing to do Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 02/15/2013 06:17 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: Well, yes, that's true. How does that count as 'well hidden'? It's not like you can login without entering your password. I call it "well hidden" because real users have come complaining to #fedora-kde claiming GDM "does not support" running anything other than GNOME, and when I explained how to find it, they said they had completely missed that and rightfully complained about how hard to find it was. My understanding is that the session list is dependent on the user selected. At least the default session is, so it made sense to wait until a user is chosen before showing the list. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Adam Williamson wrote: > On 09/02/13 01:03 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: >> Last I checked, GDM also hid that feature so well that many users missed >> it. In fact, unless this changed recently, when you input your user name, >> the option is NOT shown, it only appears after you confirm your user >> name, during the password prompt. > > Well, yes, that's true. How does that count as 'well hidden'? It's not > like you can login without entering your password. I call it "well hidden" because real users have come complaining to #fedora-kde claiming GDM "does not support" running anything other than GNOME, and when I explained how to find it, they said they had completely missed that and rightfully complained about how hard to find it was. Of course, as the GDM developers only ever linger on GNOME-centric chans, they never get these user complaints, so they keep congratulating themselves on the "great improved" UI. Several people on #fedora-kde see this UI as a way to push the agenda of making users not even realize there's an alternative to GNOME. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Le samedi 16 février 2013 à 00:15 +0100, Martin Sourada a écrit : > On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 19:13:08 -0800 > Adam Williamson wrote: > > > On 09/02/13 01:03 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > > Last I checked, GDM also hid that feature so well that many users > > > missed it. In fact, unless this changed recently, when you input > > > your user name, the option is NOT shown, it only appears after you > > > confirm your user name, during the password prompt. > > > > Well, yes, that's true. How does that count as 'well hidden'? It's > > not like you can login without entering your password. > What about users *without* password? It's insecure (in most cases), but > possible. One potential idea would be to just show the password prompt and wait to type "enter". But if that's not how it work now ( I didn't test ), I guess opening a bug on bugs.gnome.org is the way to have it fixed. -- Michael Scherer -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 19:13:08 -0800 Adam Williamson wrote: > On 09/02/13 01:03 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > Last I checked, GDM also hid that feature so well that many users > > missed it. In fact, unless this changed recently, when you input > > your user name, the option is NOT shown, it only appears after you > > confirm your user name, during the password prompt. > > Well, yes, that's true. How does that count as 'well hidden'? It's > not like you can login without entering your password. What about users *without* password? It's insecure (in most cases), but possible. But yes, we have other DMs, so why bother with pointing out what we believe GDM does wrong, when there's a DM that does it right and is supported in Fedora? I've abandoned GDM myself when it started using gnome shell and since then I haven't got the urge to point out that it's unusable (meaning inconvenient, non-effective to use) for me, because I can use something different now (many thanks to the people who got LightDM into Fedora and made it work). Martin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > When talking to Ubuntu users, they are telling Unity is as biasing as > Gnome3. Aside from the visual arrangement of things, I haven't seen *major* differences between the GNOME 3 and the Unity user interfaces. It's not all that hard for me to mentally switch from my preferred GNOME 3 on Fedora 18 to a Quantal Quetzal default Unity desktop on a virtual machine. Right-click on an icon to remove it from the list, etc. But it's essentially the exact same total mindshift in going from a GNOME 2 menu at the top like older Fedora and Ubuntu to either a GNOME 3 or a Unity desktop. It's *huge* but not insurmountable. The Unity "compiz" crashes, on the other hand, are a show-stopper. ;-) > AFAICT, most dissatisfied Ubuntu/Unity users quit Ubuntu for Linux MiNT. Well, there are actually *two* Linux Mint desktops, Cinnamon and MATE. They also make a KDE and XFCE version, but I haven't played with those at all. I must admit I don't know the community structures / resource allocations among the three projects - Linux Mint, Cinnamon and MATE. -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb; Computational Journalism on a Stick http://j.mp/CompJournoStick/ The National Coal Institute reminds you, "There's no fuel like an old fuel." -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 09/02/13 01:03 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: ...but as Rahul said, they all allow you to log in to any desktop. There seems to be a meme in this thread that GDM does not, but that's not correct, it does. The choice is not visible unless you actually have multiple desktops installed, but when you do, it gives you the option. Last I checked, GDM also hid that feature so well that many users missed it. In fact, unless this changed recently, when you input your user name, the option is NOT shown, it only appears after you confirm your user name, during the password prompt. Well, yes, that's true. How does that count as 'well hidden'? It's not like you can login without entering your password. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 03:50:56PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > > > Am 12.02.2013 15:47, schrieb Olav Vitters: > > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:37:31AM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > >> Am 11.02.2013 11:31, schrieb Olav Vitters: > >>> On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 07:59:22PM +, Ian Malone wrote: > In the end, more than any usability quibbles, the best reason to give > up on a project is when it refuses to listen to its end users. > >>> > >>> The GNOME release notes over various cycles have listed loads of changes > >>> which have been made based on the things that have been learned. This > >>> happened during 2.x as well as 3.x. > >>> > >>> Although you do not explicitly state it, it seems you were talking about > >>> GNOME. Vincent Untz phrased it much better than I ever could, but he > >>> basically pointed at the "Power Off". You can also read the release > >>> notes for loads of other changes > >> > >> this is all fine > >> > >> BUT why are things completly re-written and in a pre-alpha state > >> released replacing and destroying the users workload and after > >> that it takes years to fix all teh issues in the one or another way? > > > > I have a totally different view. > > > > Could you show me the bugreport about where GNOME destroyed something on > > a users machine? > > > > GNOME 3 was delayed by 2 cycles. Before that we made loads of releases > > available for testing. The 3.0 was really stable > > what are you not understanding in "destroy users workload"? > it dies not help if software runs stable if it forces the > user to completly re-learn how he used to do things > > workload = people are runnign their PC for working with it and > doing things not only play around with the OS itself Did you read my email at all? In any case: "destroy users workload" In my understanding: 1. You're really angry (aka "destroy": wtf!) 2. I have a totally different view 3. It seems you can speak on every users behalf (related to #2) Note that #2 I already quoted, aside from the things you snipped which gave IMO a friendly explanation. In any case, we can also turn this into a offlist flamewar if you want. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Am 12.02.2013 15:47, schrieb Olav Vitters: > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:37:31AM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: >> Am 11.02.2013 11:31, schrieb Olav Vitters: >>> On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 07:59:22PM +, Ian Malone wrote: In the end, more than any usability quibbles, the best reason to give up on a project is when it refuses to listen to its end users. >>> >>> The GNOME release notes over various cycles have listed loads of changes >>> which have been made based on the things that have been learned. This >>> happened during 2.x as well as 3.x. >>> >>> Although you do not explicitly state it, it seems you were talking about >>> GNOME. Vincent Untz phrased it much better than I ever could, but he >>> basically pointed at the "Power Off". You can also read the release >>> notes for loads of other changes >> >> this is all fine >> >> BUT why are things completly re-written and in a pre-alpha state >> released replacing and destroying the users workload and after >> that it takes years to fix all teh issues in the one or another way? > > I have a totally different view. > > Could you show me the bugreport about where GNOME destroyed something on > a users machine? > > GNOME 3 was delayed by 2 cycles. Before that we made loads of releases > available for testing. The 3.0 was really stable what are you not understanding in "destroy users workload"? it dies not help if software runs stable if it forces the user to completly re-learn how he used to do things workload = people are runnign their PC for working with it and doing things not only play around with the OS itself signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:37:31AM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > Am 11.02.2013 11:31, schrieb Olav Vitters: > > On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 07:59:22PM +, Ian Malone wrote: > >> In the end, more than any usability quibbles, the best reason to give > >> up on a project is when it refuses to listen to its end users. > > > > The GNOME release notes over various cycles have listed loads of changes > > which have been made based on the things that have been learned. This > > happened during 2.x as well as 3.x. > > > > Although you do not explicitly state it, it seems you were talking about > > GNOME. Vincent Untz phrased it much better than I ever could, but he > > basically pointed at the "Power Off". You can also read the release > > notes for loads of other changes > > this is all fine > > BUT why are things completly re-written and in a pre-alpha state > released replacing and destroying the users workload and after > that it takes years to fix all teh issues in the one or another way? I have a totally different view. Could you show me the bugreport about where GNOME destroyed something on a users machine? GNOME 3 was delayed by 2 cycles. Before that we made loads of releases available for testing. The 3.0 was really stable. > this big mistakes are happening over and over and the speed > these are happening is growing with each compontent instead > learn from mistakes and release software after it is finished > or do not make a rewrite at all Conflicts with release early and release often and the difference between testing by 50 people and releasing it for 500.000+. > it does users not help much if 2-3 years later things starting > to get useable again - why? because in the meantime someone > is changing the next subsystem against a pre-alpha and years > later people are proud to have fixed a lot of issues while > forget that they all were introduced by release unready software That was addressed by Vincent during FOSDEM. I mean: - real usability testing (help welcome!) I mean huge groups, non-biased, representing everyone, etc - real studies on biggest issues (help welcome!) I don't mean an internet survey, or a study where the outcome is 'do what some other OS does'. I mean something which is a followup on what Sun did ages ago. - better communication (help welcome!) Sometimes a huge difference to what is decided/planned and what news sites announce e.g. the poweroff I wanted to see changed more quickly. It could've, but a study would've sped it up greatly. I mean a huge usability study at least every 2 years, and smaller ones after each release. This to address the difference between: - one developer working on something - a few developers (project gets a few developers) - 50+ developers (jhbuild people) - 500+ people (tarballs/unstable packages) - 5000+? people (beta cycle - 3.x.0) - nothing - 500.000+? (distro release) Every time the number of people increases 10-fold, you'll find more issues. Expecting that a few developers will ever release something that would be good enough for 500.000 is just unrealistic. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 08:07:23AM +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 02/08/2013 01:39 PM, drago01 wrote: > >On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > >>Gnome3 and Gnome2's GUI working principles are entirely different and > >>therefore are catering the demands of different target audiences. > > > >Citation needed for implication "is different" -> "catering the > >demands of different target audiences" . > > The main differences are: > - Tiled GUI (Gnome3) vs. Menu GUI (Gnome2). GNOME 3.8 will give you a combination. > - Non-configurable/"dumb" GUI-configuration (Gnome3) vs. highly > customizable GUI (Gnome2). Extensions allow for way more changes than GNOME 2.x. > - Dynamic workspaces (Gnome3) vs. static workspaces (Gnome2). You can select if you want to have dynamic workspaces or not. In 3.6 that is in gnome-tweak-tool. In 3.8 it would be part of 'classic mode' (hopefully the name will change). > There'd be other discussworthy/questionable changes details, but I > prefer not to mention them here, to avoid this thread to deviate > further. Do not see how changes result in a different target audience. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 11 February 2013 22:24, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Ian Malone wrote: >> On record? Is there going to be a trial? >> What frustrates me is it's such an uphill battle. >> Step 1: Everything changes. >> Step 2: Users protest, some leave. >> Step 3: Supporters respond there's nothing wrong and essentially >> everyone who doesn't like it is too stupid or lazy. >> Step 4: Users carry on complaining. >> Step 5: Some features are gradually re-added, without ever >> acknowledging there was a problem in the first place. >> Step 6: Minor release? Go to step 4. >> Step 7: Major release? Go to step 5. > ↑ > Go to step 1, you mean? :-) > Ah yes, this'll be fixed in the next release. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 02/09/2013 12:39 PM, Michael Scherer wrote: 2) if the fedora forums poll is biased due to "default to gnome 3", then why isn't unity being more represented in the linuxquestion poll ? When talking to Ubuntu users, they are telling Unity is as biasing as Gnome3. Is it because : - Unity, by some magic reason, do not bias anything while gnome-shell does ( ie, your argument is invalidated by the data you cite ) ? AFAICT, most dissatisfied Ubuntu/Unity users quit Ubuntu for Linux MiNT. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 02/08/2013 01:39 PM, drago01 wrote: On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Gnome3 and Gnome2's GUI working principles are entirely different and therefore are catering the demands of different target audiences. Citation needed for implication "is different" -> "catering the demands of different target audiences" . The main differences are: - Tiled GUI (Gnome3) vs. Menu GUI (Gnome2). - Non-configurable/"dumb" GUI-configuration (Gnome3) vs. highly customizable GUI (Gnome2). - Dynamic workspaces (Gnome3) vs. static workspaces (Gnome2). There'd be other discussworthy/questionable changes details, but I prefer not to mention them here, to avoid this thread to deviate further. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Ian Malone wrote: > On record? Is there going to be a trial? > What frustrates me is it's such an uphill battle. > Step 1: Everything changes. > Step 2: Users protest, some leave. > Step 3: Supporters respond there's nothing wrong and essentially > everyone who doesn't like it is too stupid or lazy. > Step 4: Users carry on complaining. > Step 5: Some features are gradually re-added, without ever > acknowledging there was a problem in the first place. > Step 6: Minor release? Go to step 4. > Step 7: Major release? Go to step 5. ↑ Go to step 1, you mean? :-) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 02/08/2013 07:23 PM, Martin Sourada wrote: * gnome devs are systematically removing features many former gnome users thought were useful, and sometimes adding them back again after a year or so of complains. Today's xkcd is relevant---"every change breaks someone's workflow" http://xkcd.com/1172/ For the record, I found Gnome3 a little baffling initially, but then grew to like it. At first I missed my icon shortcuts in the top bar, etc. On the other hand, I liked the fact that I could find applications by just typing their name, rather than hunting through pop-up menu hierarchies---I realized that in G2 I ran many GUI apps from term windows. Overall, the annoyance factor was about the same as when I lost my G2 configuration, which happened a couple of times due to reinstalls and G2 bugs that required removing ~/.gnome2 From what I hear that was a common experience: a sigh, something gained, something lost, no big deal overall. I am sure there were more conservative people who were more upset, to the extent that they may have switched to another system, but the flip side of it is that those likely to switch switched already so no big migrations in the future. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Am 11.02.2013 11:31, schrieb Olav Vitters: > On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 07:59:22PM +, Ian Malone wrote: >> In the end, more than any usability quibbles, the best reason to give >> up on a project is when it refuses to listen to its end users. > > The GNOME release notes over various cycles have listed loads of changes > which have been made based on the things that have been learned. This > happened during 2.x as well as 3.x. > > Although you do not explicitly state it, it seems you were talking about > GNOME. Vincent Untz phrased it much better than I ever could, but he > basically pointed at the "Power Off". You can also read the release > notes for loads of other changes this is all fine BUT why are things completly re-written and in a pre-alpha state released replacing and destroying the users workload and after that it takes years to fix all teh issues in the one or another way? this big mistakes are happening over and over and the speed these are happening is growing with each compontent instead learn from mistakes and release software after it is finished or do not make a rewrite at all it does users not help much if 2-3 years later things starting to get useable again - why? because in the meantime someone is changing the next subsystem against a pre-alpha and years later people are proud to have fixed a lot of issues while forget that they all were introduced by release unready software signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 07:59:22PM +, Ian Malone wrote: > In the end, more than any usability quibbles, the best reason to give > up on a project is when it refuses to listen to its end users. The GNOME release notes over various cycles have listed loads of changes which have been made based on the things that have been learned. This happened during 2.x as well as 3.x. Although you do not explicitly state it, it seems you were talking about GNOME. Vincent Untz phrased it much better than I ever could, but he basically pointed at the "Power Off". You can also read the release notes for loads of other changes. If you see the development version of 3.8, you'll note an entire new workflow that is introduced. See above for some pointers and concrete data. I guess you assume because choices are made and that you cannot do everything (or whatever you requested), that this implies that no user is listened to. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
- Original Message - > From: "Ian Malone" > To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 9:51:41 AM > Subject: Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop > > On 11 February 2013 07:15, Casey Dahlin wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 11:34:34AM +, Ian Malone wrote: > >> Gnome 2 slowly returned to the old behaviour in many ways. Gnome 3 > >> is > >> starting to do this. > >> > > > > As someone who, I presume, does not like Gnome 3, and as someone > > who, I will > > wildly guess, shares the notion that GNOME devs are doing whatever > > they want > > and not listening to your use cases... > > > > ...are you certain... > > > > ...absolutely certain... > > > > ...that you'd like to be on record setting the precedent that GNOME > > 3 is > > admitting failure by compromising to your standards? > > > > On record? Is there going to be a trial? > What frustrates me is it's such an uphill battle. > Step 1: Everything changes. > Step 2: Users protest, some leave. > Step 3: Supporters respond there's nothing wrong and essentially > everyone who doesn't like it is too stupid or lazy. > Step 4: Users carry on complaining. > Step 5: Some features are gradually re-added, without ever > acknowledging there was a problem in the first place. > Step 6: Minor release? Go to step 4. > Step 7: Major release? Go to step 5. Hmm, you seem to forgot that there is also alternative: Step 2: New users try it, like it, stay with it. P.S. As everything is subjective I have to assure you that I'm one of these - former KDE, now Gnome 3 user. Alexander Kurtakov Red Hat Eclipse team > > -- > imalone > http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk > -- > devel mailing list > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 11 February 2013 07:15, Casey Dahlin wrote: > On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 11:34:34AM +, Ian Malone wrote: >> Gnome 2 slowly returned to the old behaviour in many ways. Gnome 3 is >> starting to do this. >> > > As someone who, I presume, does not like Gnome 3, and as someone who, I will > wildly guess, shares the notion that GNOME devs are doing whatever they want > and not listening to your use cases... > > ...are you certain... > > ...absolutely certain... > > ...that you'd like to be on record setting the precedent that GNOME 3 is > admitting failure by compromising to your standards? > On record? Is there going to be a trial? What frustrates me is it's such an uphill battle. Step 1: Everything changes. Step 2: Users protest, some leave. Step 3: Supporters respond there's nothing wrong and essentially everyone who doesn't like it is too stupid or lazy. Step 4: Users carry on complaining. Step 5: Some features are gradually re-added, without ever acknowledging there was a problem in the first place. Step 6: Minor release? Go to step 4. Step 7: Major release? Go to step 5. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 11:34:34AM +, Ian Malone wrote: > Gnome 2 slowly returned to the old behaviour in many ways. Gnome 3 is > starting to do this. > As someone who, I presume, does not like Gnome 3, and as someone who, I will wildly guess, shares the notion that GNOME devs are doing whatever they want and not listening to your use cases... ...are you certain... ...absolutely certain... ...that you'd like to be on record setting the precedent that GNOME 3 is admitting failure by compromising to your standards? --CJD -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Ian Malone wrote: > Gnome 3 is designed for a touch interface. The majority of touch > interfaces are mobile phones. Touch interfaces on computers are a > minority. Gnome 3 is a poor mobile phone interface, but that doesn't > mean it's a good laptop or desktop one. Touch screen is not the > reality for the majority of office workers for example, and I do > wonder how useful it would be at all to them. I flew to Atlanta recently and saw a number of people using iPads in the Bluetooth-keyboard-mounted configuration. It was ghastly to watch - they'd type a bit, then poke the screen, type some more, poke some more, ... I really can't imagine doing serious knowledge work without a mouse or at least a trackpad. And I despise trackpads. I use GNOME 3 with a mouse and keyboard. I like it. I can't imagine using it on a phone or a tablet. I *think* what the GNOME 3 designers (and the Unity bastardization of GNOME 3) were going for was an interface that *could* be used either on a touch screen or a "conventional" KVM setup. I've also tried both Cinnamon and MATE on both Fedora and Linux Mint. Really, with a few mouse clicks, you can customize *any* Linux desktop *except* GNOME 3 to be Mac-like (menu in the upper left) or Windows-like (menu in the lower left) and can add panels, taskbars, etc. > > -- > imalone > http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk > -- > devel mailing list > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb; Computational Journalism on a Stick http://j.mp/CompJournoStick/ The National Coal Institute reminds you, "There's no fuel like an old fuel." -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 9 February 2013 12:25, drago01 wrote: > On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Ian Malone wrote: >> * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you way. >>> >>> Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever >>> you want with the desktop >>> >> >> Is anyone doing that? > > https://extensions.gnome.org/ ... seems so ;) Is not very useful. 19 pages of unorganised apps. It's not even immediately obvious how to install one (it is not intuitive to me that a slider on a web page should make a change to my desktop). > >>> * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8. >>> >>> GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better on >>> touch devices then previous releases supporting new hardware >>> isn't really a bad thing imo. >> >> And neither much contemplated that the interface that's appropriate >> for a mobile phone is not appropriate for a desktop. > > GNOME 3 is not a mobile phone interface. Repeating that multiple times > does not make it true. > I didn't. I implied it would be more suitable as a mobile phone interface. >> I still use Gnome >> 3, despite the many helpful suggestions to change. I don't find it >> quite as annoying as Windows 8 (where it's sometimes hard even to know >> how to close down an app), but I do find that: >> 1. I no longer use workspaces to manage different tasks unless there >> are lots of windows and then I sometimes overflow onto 2. This is >> because they're less useful as you now can't switch without going to >> the activities view and they aren't segregated well. > > You have a keyboard Crtl-Alt- works fine (Odd on a "mobile > phone interface" but you can do a lot of things with the keyboard). > Not my point. My point is that everything is made a little harder, pushed a little further away, in ways that make more efficient working patterns harder. > And now I think this thread is going nowhere lets stop here. In the end, more than any usability quibbles, the best reason to give up on a project is when it refuses to listen to its end users. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 9 February 2013 12:52, Michael Scherer wrote: > Le samedi 09 février 2013 à 11:34 +, Ian Malone a écrit : >> On 9 February 2013 00:37, drago01 wrote: >> > On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Martin Sourada >> > wrote: >> >> >> * Gnome 3's target audience does not enclose majority of Gnome 2's >> >>target audience, though it *does* have some intersection. Many of >> >>those are seeing this as arrogance. >> > >> > Being different does not imply different target audience ... same >> > thing and discussion happened when GNOME 2.0 got released. >> > Now the haters from back then want GNOME 2.0 back ;) >> > >> >> Gnome 2 slowly returned to the old behaviour in many ways. Gnome 3 is >> starting to do this. >> >> >> * Some trivial stuff is taking months to years to re-implement (shut >> >>down). >> > >> > Nonsense. Shutdown has always been implemented. It just got presented >> > differently. >> > >> >> Hidden. On the bizarre assumption users didn't need it. > > based on the assumption that showing "hibernate, suspend, reboot, > shutdown, log out, lock" was asking too much questions and that we could > do better. See http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/11/21.html for > the rational of the problem. > Too many questions, better to introduce an unexpected mouse-keyboard combination? > And the assumption was that using the power button would have been easy > enough for people to get it ( since people do get it for like almost > every possible electronic stuff and likely all computers stuff except a > few one ). It doesn't seems a totally bizarre assumption to me. > Sound cards used to have physical volume knobs, maybe we should reintroduce those and then there wouldn't be a need for a volume control on the desktop? And get rid of network manager, I can always just whip out the aerial or ethernet cable if I want... >> >> * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you >> >>way. >> > >> > Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever >> > you want with the desktop >> > >> >> Is anyone doing that? > > That's the problem. Most people prefer to talk rather to do work. > And then complain that the others do not do exactly what they want for > free and immediately. > Ah, no, my point is that this kind of 'do it yourself answer' doesn't work for many people. Is the user that's confused by the choice between shutdown and suspend expected to write their own extension to do it? And yes, I realise there's an extension to do *that* particular job. >> > >> >> * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8. >> > >> > GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better on >> > touch devices then previous releases supporting new hardware >> > isn't really a bad thing imo. >> >> And neither much contemplated that the interface that's appropriate >> for a mobile phone is not appropriate for a desktop. > > Gnome-shell is not mean to be used nor appropriate for a mobile phone. > And despite being rather usable on a touch screen ( I tested ), it is > still not sufficient there for 1 million of details ( Vincent Untz talk > also said the same, see gnome people to see the details ). > > So when the developpers say this is not made for a phone, when there is > actual strong evidence that it doesn't work on a phone, why do people > insist on the contrary ? I didn't. I said: >> And neither much contemplated that the interface that's appropriate >> for a mobile phone is not appropriate for a desktop. Gnome 3 is designed for a touch interface. The majority of touch interfaces are mobile phones. Touch interfaces on computers are a minority. Gnome 3 is a poor mobile phone interface, but that doesn't mean it's a good laptop or desktop one. Touch screen is not the reality for the majority of office workers for example, and I do wonder how useful it would be at all to them. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces (Was Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop)
On Sunday, February 10, 2013, Samuel Sieb wrote: ＞ As an aside, when I first saw gnome-shell, I thought it would be horrible to use. But after a while of using it, finding gnome-tweak-tool, and installing a couple of extensions, I've been quite happy with it. I actually think it's more keyboard friendly than Gnome 2 was. Somewhat funny that many users even don't know this tweak tool and ask everywhere about this.. -- *Yours sincerely,* *Christopher Meng* Got problems with Windows? - ReBoot Got problems with Linux? - Be Root Ambassador/Contributor of Fedora Project and many others. http://cicku.me -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Gnome-shell workspaces (Was Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop)
On 02/09/2013 03:34 AM, Ian Malone wrote: 1. I no longer use workspaces to manage different tasks unless there are lots of windows and then I sometimes overflow onto 2. This is because they're less useful as you now can't switch without going to the activities view and they aren't segregated well. At work I have a KDE desktop and use four routinely. On my laptop, I have four workspaces. One for email, one for Eclipse, one for my pile of browser windows, and one for other stuff. I also have a terminal with many tabs in each workspace. Other than the standard shortcuts for switching between workspaces (which I rarely use), I have mapped [1-4] to directly switch between workspaces. I rarely need to go to the overview other than starting programs. As an aside, when I first saw gnome-shell, I thought it would be horrible to use. But after a while of using it, finding gnome-tweak-tool, and installing a couple of extensions, I've been quite happy with it. I actually think it's more keyboard friendly than Gnome 2 was. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 10:22:41AM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > drago01 wrote: > > There is no easy way to install applications (regular user don't want > > to mess up with packages). > > Huh? Fire up gnome-packagekit or Apper, choose your app, make 2 or 3 clicks > (install, apply, confirm dependencies if any), enter your root password and > the app is there. How do you propose making this any easier? > > I don't understand all this app store hype. Our repository system gives you > the same advantages while being much sounder technically (automatic > dependency resolution instead of bundling everything). It is providing a solution from the maintainer perspective. Ideally everything should be packaged by a distribution. But sometimes it is nice to have a stable distribution, bit still easily be able to test a development version of some app and see if your bug has been fixed. Same for the maintainer who just wants to provide something for loads of distributions, not wait if someone makes a package for every distribution out there. A distribution does not scale as much as all individual maintainers can IMO. That said, distribution is still preferred (drawbacks of the solution like shipping your own libraries is ugly). -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 05:38:46PM +0100, Pierre-Yves Chibon wrote:
> The only thing I can think of is that people turning their back on you,
> not looking at you when you are asked to raise your hand on something
> they worked on, this might be intimidating to some people.
> I was not one of these, and I certainly got a different feeling from
> this talk
We were sitting at the front and thus you turn around to see how many
people are raising their hands.
In any case, I'll keep it brief. For this current argument:
- I provided a measure, added that it is likely biased
- No responses to the measure, just changing the topic into yet
something else ("GNOME developers are intimidating/looking for a
fight")
I'll leave it at that ☺
--
Regards,
Olav
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Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 15:01 +0100, Olav Vitters wrote: > On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 08:35:56PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > > > Le Ven 8 février 2013 13:22, Olav Vitters a écrit : > > > On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote: > > >> I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original > > >> statement, namely that there is a "completely different target > > >> audience" for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3. > > >> > > >> I am that datapoint. > > > > > > As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to raise > > > their hands). No idea how representative that it. > > > > The FOSDEM poll was stacked — no one really wanted to hurt Vincent Untz I didn't get this feeling seeing the questions asked at the end. > > too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of > > GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people do > > not go to FOSDEM to fight. What is telling however is the complete refusal > > of the audience to put systemd and Gnome 3 in the same bucket. Lennart's > > efforts to explain his project, understand sysadmin needs, provide a > > smooth transition and keep current usages working clearly paid off there. > > > > So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward moment for > > everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the positive energy > > that permeated other presentations). > > 1. The poll was right at the beginning > 2. I don't get how it is intimidating to raise your hand > 3. I don't get how we were intimidating The only thing I can think of is that people turning their back on you, not looking at you when you are asked to raise your hand on something they worked on, this might be intimidating to some people. I was not one of these, and I certainly got a different feeling from this talk Pierre -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 03:46:57PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Michael Scherer wrote: > > Gnome-shell is not mean to be used nor appropriate for a mobile phone. > > And despite being rather usable on a touch screen ( I tested ), it is > > still not sufficient there for 1 million of details ( Vincent Untz talk > > also said the same, see gnome people to see the details ). > > But it is clearly inspired by mobile phone UIs. Why? Phones are not the > target, so why copy them? It leads to an interface which is not appropriate > for ANY platform. It's not appropriate for mobile phones for the reasons you > cite, it's not appropriate for computers because it looks and feels like a > smartphone UI, so what IS it appropriate for? Touch friendliness (but on a laptop / desktop). > Users of computers have certain expectations of how a user interface looks > like, and gnome-shell completely fails to meet those expectations (as do > Unity and Window$ 8's "Modern UI" (formerly known as "Metro"), which both > suffer from the exact same problem). In my country smart phones are outselling computers, computer sales are way down. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Michael Scherer wrote: > Well, a majority of people think such polls are useless, Do you have a poll to prove that? ;-) Seriously, the only thing more inaccurate than statistic is MADE UP statistics. :-/ > 1) 792 people. Just to compare, there is 300 people on #fedora-devel on > irc, and 800 on #puppet on irc, a media which is said to be "dying". > There as around 4000 visitors in FOSDEM in 2008, 5 years ago. So the > number of people is just low. I do truly hope we have more than a > handful 1000 users across _all_ distributions. Do you know what a "sample" is? > 2) if the fedora forums poll is biased due to "default to gnome 3", then > why isn't unity being more represented in the linuxquestion poll ? > Is it because : > - Unity, by some magic reason, do not bias anything while gnome-shell > does ( ie, your argument is invalidated by the data you cite ) ? > - Ubuntu users have their own forums, like many others distributions and > so they are not present ( and so this also bias more by being not at all > representative of a group we can safely count as million of user, ie by > taking extremly conservative view of the number given by Canonical ) > - Ubuntu users, despite perception and enough converging evidences, are > far from being a important enough group to count and to bias the poll ? The answer's right there: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2012-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-104/desktop-distribution-of-the-year-4175441843/ Looks like most Ubuntu users actually don't use Unity. Maybe it sucks even more than GNOME 3 does, maybe Ubuntu is actually better at promoting other choices (see Kubuntu and Xubuntu) than we are, or maybe LinuxQuestions is more likely to attract people using something other than the default than FedoraForum, I don't know. (There seem to be more GNOME 3 users than Fedora users on LinuxQuestions, so it looks like folks are also using GNOME 3 on other distros. Still, it's much less popular than KDE and Xfce, and compared to the year before, Cinnamon has almost caught up to it.) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Michael Scherer wrote: > Gnome-shell is not mean to be used nor appropriate for a mobile phone. > And despite being rather usable on a touch screen ( I tested ), it is > still not sufficient there for 1 million of details ( Vincent Untz talk > also said the same, see gnome people to see the details ). But it is clearly inspired by mobile phone UIs. Why? Phones are not the target, so why copy them? It leads to an interface which is not appropriate for ANY platform. It's not appropriate for mobile phones for the reasons you cite, it's not appropriate for computers because it looks and feels like a smartphone UI, so what IS it appropriate for? Users of computers have certain expectations of how a user interface looks like, and gnome-shell completely fails to meet those expectations (as do Unity and Window$ 8's "Modern UI" (formerly known as "Metro"), which both suffer from the exact same problem). Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 11:21:49PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > I stand by my statement that this was a very awkward moment, with Vincent > and the GNOME team radiating unhappiness and pretty much everyone else > being perplexed and wondering whether they should take offence at being > accused of being mad or if it was some weird form of apology. Certainly > not the kind of celebration being portrayed here. > > As for the vocifering, I'll leave that to others. Radiating unhappiness? As you're talking about me I will reply briefly: bullshit. I would appreciate that you stop suggesting this about my and my friends, thanks. Note that and I think most other didn't know the contents of the talk that Vincent would give. Did you actually attend the presentation? It really seems you did not. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 08:35:56PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le Ven 8 février 2013 13:22, Olav Vitters a écrit : > > On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote: > >> I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original > >> statement, namely that there is a "completely different target > >> audience" for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3. > >> > >> I am that datapoint. > > > > As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to raise > > their hands). No idea how representative that it. > > The FOSDEM poll was stacked — no one really wanted to hurt Vincent Untz > too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of > GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people do > not go to FOSDEM to fight. What is telling however is the complete refusal > of the audience to put systemd and Gnome 3 in the same bucket. Lennart's > efforts to explain his project, understand sysadmin needs, provide a > smooth transition and keep current usages working clearly paid off there. > > So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward moment for > everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the positive energy > that permeated other presentations). 1. The poll was right at the beginning 2. I don't get how it is intimidating to raise your hand 3. I don't get how we were intimidating 4. A user interface is more like a bike shed than anything else Obviously I sat together with other GNOME people, as I know them. Sometimes I sit randomly in the audience. I find it curious that you find something negative about my behaviour. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Le samedi 09 février 2013 à 11:34 +, Ian Malone a écrit : > On 9 February 2013 00:37, drago01 wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Martin Sourada > > wrote: > > >> * Gnome 3's target audience does not enclose majority of Gnome 2's > >>target audience, though it *does* have some intersection. Many of > >>those are seeing this as arrogance. > > > > Being different does not imply different target audience ... same > > thing and discussion happened when GNOME 2.0 got released. > > Now the haters from back then want GNOME 2.0 back ;) > > > > Gnome 2 slowly returned to the old behaviour in many ways. Gnome 3 is > starting to do this. > > >> * Some trivial stuff is taking months to years to re-implement (shut > >>down). > > > > Nonsense. Shutdown has always been implemented. It just got presented > > differently. > > > > Hidden. On the bizarre assumption users didn't need it. based on the assumption that showing "hibernate, suspend, reboot, shutdown, log out, lock" was asking too much questions and that we could do better. See http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/11/21.html for the rational of the problem. And if people had discussed with the designers, they would have seen designers answering "yes, the current design is not perfect, we are aware, but we do not know how to do better, we have to think about. For now, we have to release". In the end, you have to select a design and release. Contrary to the popular belief, Gnome took in account the KDE 4 releases lessons and pushed gnome-shell for 2 releases to avid the stability issues ( and to be fair for KDE4, the biggest stability issues came mostly from Nvidia (http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=819 ), but of course, people prefer to blame free software developers rather than questioning their choice of using a closed source binary ) And the assumption was that using the power button would have been easy enough for people to get it ( since people do get it for like almost every possible electronic stuff and likely all computers stuff except a few one ). It doesn't seems a totally bizarre assumption to me. > >> * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you > >>way. > > > > Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever > > you want with the desktop > > > > Is anyone doing that? That's the problem. Most people prefer to talk rather to do work. And then complain that the others do not do exactly what they want for free and immediately. > > > >> * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8. > > > > GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better on > > touch devices then previous releases supporting new hardware > > isn't really a bad thing imo. > > And neither much contemplated that the interface that's appropriate > for a mobile phone is not appropriate for a desktop. Gnome-shell is not mean to be used nor appropriate for a mobile phone. And despite being rather usable on a touch screen ( I tested ), it is still not sufficient there for 1 million of details ( Vincent Untz talk also said the same, see gnome people to see the details ). Gnome 3 and Gnome-shell is not for a smartphone because : 1) none of the applications are suitable for a very small screen ( like a phone ). Just try with Xnest. Or use a VM with a ridiculously low resolution. 2) given the resolution of a regular smart phone, the icon on the upper bar would either take too much space in order to be usable, or would be hard to hit. Unless you use a stylet, but I didn't see any smart phones proposing this since 2008. That's for example a problem that plagued the illume interface on the SHR distribution for the free runner. Please also note that the upper bar cannot be expended, while it is one most smartphones. So to be used on smartphone, you need to adjust it. 3) the only phone I know who can have a view of all applications is the N9 on Meego. And that's just to close applications, not to move them to another desktop or anything. Neither iPhone nor Android does it, and not even talking of symbian os. So the whole interaction is rather different. And of course, there is no keyboard shortcut for the feature, since n9 do not have keyboard. So again, you would have to make adjustment. 4) gnome-shell search need a keyboard. There is more and more refinement on it, because that's a important part of the system. Nowadays, most phones do not come with a keyboard, neither do most tablets. And the few phone with a keyboard are having a numeric keypad. Typing anything is slow in the best case. So again, that's something that would need adjustment for a smartphone. So when the developpers say this is not made for a phone, when there is actual strong evidence that it doesn't work on a phone, why do people insist on the contrary ? -- Michael Scherer -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Ian Malone wrote: > >>> * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you >>>way. >> >> Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever >> you want with the desktop >> > > Is anyone doing that? https://extensions.gnome.org/ ... seems so ;) >> >>> * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8. >> >> GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better on >> touch devices then previous releases supporting new hardware >> isn't really a bad thing imo. > > And neither much contemplated that the interface that's appropriate > for a mobile phone is not appropriate for a desktop. GNOME 3 is not a mobile phone interface. Repeating that multiple times does not make it true. > I still use Gnome > 3, despite the many helpful suggestions to change. I don't find it > quite as annoying as Windows 8 (where it's sometimes hard even to know > how to close down an app), but I do find that: > 1. I no longer use workspaces to manage different tasks unless there > are lots of windows and then I sometimes overflow onto 2. This is > because they're less useful as you now can't switch without going to > the activities view and they aren't segregated well. You have a keyboard Crtl-Alt- works fine (Odd on a "mobile phone interface" but you can do a lot of things with the keyboard). And now I think this thread is going nowhere lets stop here. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Le samedi 09 février 2013 à 11:09 +0100, Kevin Kofler a écrit : > Rave it wrote: > > > There is a current poll at fedora forum. > > http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=284463 > > > > The winner is... > > There are several factors which bias this poll: > * GNOME 3 is the default in Fedora, so of course more Fedora users will be > using it, merely due to the fact that it is the default. > * Some people actually left Fedora over GNOME 3. > * Conversely, and perhaps even more importantly, many (possibly even most) > GNOME 3 users are actually using Fedora now, because Fedora is universally > recommended to people wanting to try GNOME 3 as the distro with the best > GNOME 3 support. > > If you do a poll across users of all distributions, you get very different > results: > http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2012-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-104/desktop-environment-of-the-year-4175441851/ > and I believe the results for Fedora would be very different as well if we > picked a different default. Well, a majority of people think such polls are useless, thanks to demonstrate that once more. Just to be as clear as possible, I will only speak of 2 points : 1) 792 people. Just to compare, there is 300 people on #fedora-devel on irc, and 800 on #puppet on irc, a media which is said to be "dying". There as around 4000 visitors in FOSDEM in 2008, 5 years ago. So the number of people is just low. I do truly hope we have more than a handful 1000 users across _all_ distributions. 2) if the fedora forums poll is biased due to "default to gnome 3", then why isn't unity being more represented in the linuxquestion poll ? Is it because : - Unity, by some magic reason, do not bias anything while gnome-shell does ( ie, your argument is invalidated by the data you cite ) ? - Ubuntu users have their own forums, like many others distributions and so they are not present ( and so this also bias more by being not at all representative of a group we can safely count as million of user, ie by taking extremly conservative view of the number given by Canonical ) - Ubuntu users, despite perception and enough converging evidences, are far from being a important enough group to count and to bias the poll ? -- Michael Scherer -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 9 February 2013 00:37, drago01 wrote: > On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Martin Sourada > wrote: >> * Gnome 3's target audience does not enclose majority of Gnome 2's >>target audience, though it *does* have some intersection. Many of >>those are seeing this as arrogance. > > Being different does not imply different target audience ... same > thing and discussion happened when GNOME 2.0 got released. > Now the haters from back then want GNOME 2.0 back ;) > Gnome 2 slowly returned to the old behaviour in many ways. Gnome 3 is starting to do this. >> * Some trivial stuff is taking months to years to re-implement (shut >>down). > > Nonsense. Shutdown has always been implemented. It just got presented > differently. > Hidden. On the bizarre assumption users didn't need it. >> * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you >>way. > > Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever > you want with the desktop > Is anyone doing that? > >> * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8. > > GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better on > touch devices then previous releases supporting new hardware > isn't really a bad thing imo. And neither much contemplated that the interface that's appropriate for a mobile phone is not appropriate for a desktop. I still use Gnome 3, despite the many helpful suggestions to change. I don't find it quite as annoying as Windows 8 (where it's sometimes hard even to know how to close down an app), but I do find that: 1. I no longer use workspaces to manage different tasks unless there are lots of windows and then I sometimes overflow onto 2. This is because they're less useful as you now can't switch without going to the activities view and they aren't segregated well. At work I have a KDE desktop and use four routinely. 2. I do less with my computer. Fedora installs quite a lot of applications, some of which are interesting. Occasionally I'd spot something in a menu and think 'that's interesting', I don't do this any more. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Martin Sourada wrote: > That's the first time I've seen XFCE win over GNOME, LOL. It shouldn't be, it was the same last year (and I had already posted the link back then). :-) http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2011-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-95/desktop-environment-of-the-year-919888/ Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Hi Kevin, On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 11:09:15 +0100 Kevin Kofler wrote: > There are several factors which bias this poll: > * GNOME 3 is the default in Fedora, so of course more Fedora users > will be using it, merely due to the fact that it is the default. > * Some people actually left Fedora over GNOME 3. > * Conversely, and perhaps even more importantly, many (possibly even > most) GNOME 3 users are actually using Fedora now, because Fedora is > universally recommended to people wanting to try GNOME 3 as the > distro with the best GNOME 3 support. > > If you do a poll across users of all distributions, you get very > different results: > http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2012-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-104/desktop-environment-of-the-year-4175441851/ > and I believe the results for Fedora would be very different as well > if we picked a different default. While I inherently believe that that no internet poll can present statistically relevant data (unless huge majority of user-base actually votes), it's actually interesting to see that XFCE is coming second (about 1/4 of votes), after KDE of course (about 1/3 of votes), in the poll you linked. And has twice the votes than the third, which is GNOME Shell (about 1/8 of votes). That's the first time I've seen XFCE win over GNOME, LOL. And yeah, I agree with you about the bias in Fedora poll. So, when XFCE-4.12 comes into Fedora (Fedora 20?), how about starting this flamewar again with "XFCE as Default Desktop" feature request? We already tried this with KDE and Cinnamon, after all and XFCE is the second most popular in some random internet poll ;-) Maybe we would really be better off if we provided user with the initial choice between KDE, GNOME and XFCE, instead of pointing him directly to 64bit GNOME, which does not boot on half of the world... Martin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Rave it wrote: > There is a current poll at fedora forum. > http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=284463 > > The winner is... There are several factors which bias this poll: * GNOME 3 is the default in Fedora, so of course more Fedora users will be using it, merely due to the fact that it is the default. * Some people actually left Fedora over GNOME 3. * Conversely, and perhaps even more importantly, many (possibly even most) GNOME 3 users are actually using Fedora now, because Fedora is universally recommended to people wanting to try GNOME 3 as the distro with the best GNOME 3 support. If you do a poll across users of all distributions, you get very different results: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2012-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-104/desktop-environment-of-the-year-4175441851/ and I believe the results for Fedora would be very different as well if we picked a different default. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Alec Leamas wrote: > On 2013-02-05 21:46, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> You ordered Gnome and have been served Pizza for a long time - now >> you're being served Burgers :-) >> > Well, from a nutrition perspective that's actually a big step forward. > Perhaps time to trust the chef? ;) Huh? A plain cheese pizza (be it an original Pizza Margherita or an American-style cheese pizza) is much more suitable as an everyday meal than a burger. You know you're not supposed to eat meat every day, right? :-) And if the cheese is too heavy for you, try Pizza Marinara (i.e., with only tomatos, garlic, and maybe some herbs). (I know this is way off-topic, but I just HAD to defend one of the Italian national dishes there. :-) ) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Adam Williamson wrote: > On Tue, 2013-02-05 at 02:59 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: >> , but since you started it: OpenSUSE is doing just fine >> doing exactly what I suggest (making people actually pick their >> download). Their download button actually points to a selector, not >> directly to an ISO. > > That would be the SUSE that along with Mandriva got completely panned > when Ubuntu showed up, then? To the point where they've since been sold > two times and have never really recovered. That was BEFORE OpenSUSE and thus BEFORE the selector was introduced. Back then, the default in SuSE was KDE and only KDE. Then Novell came and started pushing GNOME. And only then came OpenSUSE. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
drago01 wrote: > There is no easy way to install applications (regular user don't want > to mess up with packages). Huh? Fire up gnome-packagekit or Apper, choose your app, make 2 or 3 clicks (install, apply, confirm dependencies if any), enter your root password and the app is there. How do you propose making this any easier? I don't understand all this app store hype. Our repository system gives you the same advantages while being much sounder technically (automatic dependency resolution instead of bundling everything). Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Adam Williamson wrote: > ...but as Rahul said, they all allow you to log in to any desktop. There > seems to be a meme in this thread that GDM does not, but that's not > correct, it does. The choice is not visible unless you actually have > multiple desktops installed, but when you do, it gives you the option. Last I checked, GDM also hid that feature so well that many users missed it. In fact, unless this changed recently, when you input your user name, the option is NOT shown, it only appears after you confirm your user name, during the password prompt. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Debarshi Ray wrote: >> Keep in mind that to get to the point of installing an "alternative-only >> DE", in current Fedora, you normally first have a full blown Gnome3 >> installed, which is close to impossible to get rid of. > > [citation needed] There's no straightforward way to remove GNOME: "yum groupremove gnome-desktop" does NOT work, it removes half of the distro. (In fact, "yum groupremove" is entirely useless as implemented right now, let's see whether the "groups as objects" feature will make it work any better or even worse.) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Debarshi Ray wrote: >> I know this applies, but installing gnome-shell pulls in gdm. >> >> I.e. removing gdm without removing gnone-shell is not possible. > > Because gnome-shell (running in a special mode) is nowadays the greeter > used by GDM. That does not mean GDM won't let you log into KDE if you have > it installed. > > As for GDM requiring gnome-shell, I don't think it should come across as > surprising because GDM is GNOME's display manager. If you dislike GNOME so > much then get yourself a different display manager. It's the opposite dependency he's complaining about, gnome-shell requires gdm-libs, which requires gdm for some reason. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Adam Williamson wrote: > It's an *initial* state, not a never-changing one. When I first decided > I was going to try Linux, I wanted to try Linux. I wanted exactly what > our download page gives you - a simple link to a thing called Linux I > could download and fiddle with. I'm not sure I wanted my first encounter > with the Linux world to be a boxout explaining to me what KDE and GNOME > were and asking me to pick one or the other. These things are obviously > things I came to learn about later, but they're not the most fascinating > topic to deal with when you first decide you want to play around with > this here Linux thing. The desktop environment is going to be the main piece of software they're going to try out and a major part of the user experience they'll be getting. If you make the wrong choice for them, not telling them about the options at all, they'll end up disgusted of that "Linux" thing and will go back to the proprietary OS they used before, never to be seen again, and they'll never even realize that a better desktop exists. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Jan Kratochvil wrote: > From what I have reports even Fedora 32-bit does not boot on such machines > because nobody tests the bleeding edge Fedora kernels on such obsolete > hardware. FYI, kernel-3.7.3-101.fc17.i686 runs fine on a Pentium 4 Northwood (which predates EM64T, i.e. what's now known as Intel 64). It's what I'm sending this message from. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Can a admin pls close this topic? boring since some days, people who don't want use gnome anymore are branded as 'haters' and 'reactionary'. .i don't and want follow your logic. regards, Wolfgang -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 8:21 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > Could we move this to a gnome/desktop list? > > The subject of the thread has been decided... > > I don't think it's providing much value to the Fedora devel community > anymore. > +1. Gnome 2 was counterintuitive enough. I can't imagine how Gnome 3 is like after all these comments (I never dared to try). Please continue the discussion in some Gnome mailing list. Thanks, Orcan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 18:21:00 -0700 Kevin Fenzi wrote: > Could we move this to a gnome/desktop list? > > The subject of the thread has been decided... > > I don't think it's providing much value to the Fedora devel community > anymore. > Ah, yes, my apologies. I would rather end this off topic sub-thread altogether. I don't want another flame, and I've already said pretty much everything what I wanted to say, anything else would be just rephrasing that... Martin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Could we move this to a gnome/desktop list? The subject of the thread has been decided... I don't think it's providing much value to the Fedora devel community anymore. kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sat, 9 Feb 2013 01:37:03 +0100 drago01 wrote: > I can't recall that many stability bugs getting reported against GNOME > 3.0 ... so [citation needed]. Well the fallback mode being a poor man's excuse was partly the case why the people couldn't stay with gnome. Loads of features weren't implemented in 3.0. If anything Gnome 3.0 was more of a technology preview than fully usable desktop. > Nonsense. Shutdown has always been implemented. It just got presented > differently. That's even more the reason -- the code was present, so it was not a problem of not having the human resources to make it work as expected by users. It was just the devs being stuck on the mundane idea that it's bad to have it shown by default. > > > * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you > >way. > > Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever > you want with the desktop 1st Gnome 3 isn't just a gnome shell, gnome apps are getting worse as well (but there are also some positive trends) 2nd Yes, three major releases after 3.0 we finally get something that can be used by majority of gnome 2 user base. I'm sorry, but that's too late for most of them to think of going back. > GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better M> on > touch devices then previous releases supporting new hardware > isn't really a bad thing imo. I think they've done the same mistake, that does not implicate that they have anything else to do with each other (besides gnome shell is older than Win 8). Being neither cat nor dog isn't a good thing, IMHO. Either you optimize for touch devices or for traditional input, not for both. > > > * We believe that due to the differences between Gnome 2 and Gnome > > 3, many users left Fedora during the switch. Notice the wording I used. I'm not presenting it as fact, but as a belief based on experience. There aren't any acceptable statistics to either prove or disprove the claim. > Anecdotes do not count (there are user that switched to Fedora because > they wanted a good GNOME 3 experience). That users left does not imply new didn't come ;-) > > * huge overuse of symbolic icons (this includes the new anaconda) > > That's a problem why exactly? Actually it is the opposite ... stuff > looks way better and polished if you compare it to the GNOME2. Better? Polished? Those huge lumps of blurry grey stuff you have no idea what they represent? Oh yes, on my B&W e-book reader they look awesome, but on desktop? Are we back in the days when displays didn't display colour? I tried directly comparing Nautilus with Thunar, side-by-side, in F18. It's actually Nautilus that looks like from last millennium, not Thunar. Despite having otherwise very similar interface. I'm not against symbolic icons ideologically. They have their place in modern desktop. But when they are used too much, and in bigger sizes, they tend to be bland. Plus, as they are actually composed of no more than 2 or 3 shades/colours, they're very limited in how they can look, so having too much of them is severely damaging your ability to tell them apart. And while talking about polish -- why in the world is the Adwaitha scrollbar a grey rounded rectangle while almost everything else in the theme is shaded with gradients, shadows and distinct borders? No, I definitely cannot talk about polish when speaking about Gnome 3. In some places yes, but it's hugely inconsistent. Looks like half-done work (some areas polished [almost] professionally, while others are bland and non-fitting with the rest). IMHO Martin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 3:37 PM, drago01 wrote: > Being different does not imply different target audience ... same > thing and discussion happened when GNOME 2.0 got released. > Now the haters from back then want GNOME 2.0 back ;) Can we start a new thread about bringing sawfish back as the default window manager. Because really, it had a lot of features that I have been missing through the entire g2 experience. -jef"sort of not joking"spaleta -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Martin Sourada wrote: > * Gnome devs didn't learn from KDE's mistake (the release of beta >stuff as 4.0) and went even further. Users affected by only this >might return (like Linus did). I can't recall that many stability bugs getting reported against GNOME 3.0 ... so [citation needed]. > * Gnome 3's target audience does not enclose majority of Gnome 2's >target audience, though it *does* have some intersection. Many of >those are seeing this as arrogance. Being different does not imply different target audience ... same thing and discussion happened when GNOME 2.0 got released. Now the haters from back then want GNOME 2.0 back ;) > * Some trivial stuff is taking months to years to re-implement (shut >down). Nonsense. Shutdown has always been implemented. It just got presented differently. > * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you >way. Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever you want with the desktop >That's one of the reasons why many of us are using linux than >windows -- because it traditionally *does not* do so. Randomly >breaking things with messages like (oops, something went wrong, >please try again) or things behaving unpredictably is *not* the >linux way. Strawman. > * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8. GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better on touch devices then previous releases supporting new hardware isn't really a bad thing imo. > * We believe that due to the differences between Gnome 2 and Gnome 3, >many users left Fedora during the switch. [citation needed]. Anecdotes do not count (there are user that switched to Fedora because they wanted a good GNOME 3 experience). > * gnome devs are systematically removing features many former gnome >users thought were useful, and sometimes adding them back again >after a year or so of complains. We perceive that as devs doing >whatever they wont and ignoring the real users in favour of some >imaginary ones. > * huge overuse of symbolic icons (this includes the new anaconda) That's a problem why exactly? Actually it is the opposite ... stuff looks way better and polished if you compare it to the GNOME2. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 20:45:30 +0100 Stijn Hoop wrote: > But I will keep objecting to the single-sided argument that there is > no "GNOME 2 user" that likes GNOME 3. I fully support those who have > tried and rejected the new stuff -- as long as they don't impose their > opinion on me :-) I don't think anyone ever claimed such thing. What we (the Gnome 2 fans, but Gnome 3 "haters") are saying is basically this: * Gnome 3 is a radical change from Gnome 2, in many ways, and for many people this was an unacceptable direction. These were numerous enough to get Cinnamon, Mate and Unity up and working. Some of those (including me) expanded XFCE (or other classical desktops) user base. These combined are a real lot of people. These users aren't going to return. * Gnome devs didn't learn from KDE's mistake (the release of beta stuff as 4.0) and went even further. Users affected by only this might return (like Linus did). * Gnome 3's target audience does not enclose majority of Gnome 2's target audience, though it *does* have some intersection. Many of those are seeing this as arrogance. * Some trivial stuff is taking months to years to re-implement (shut down). * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you way. That's one of the reasons why many of us are using linux than windows -- because it traditionally *does not* do so. Randomly breaking things with messages like (oops, something went wrong, please try again) or things behaving unpredictably is *not* the linux way. * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8. * We believe that due to the differences between Gnome 2 and Gnome 3, many users left Fedora during the switch. * We think that if we changed default desktop now, it would be less disruptive than when we switched from G2 to G3, because we wouldn't be switching to beta project, however I think that neither Cinnamon and Mate are good candidates. They're too recent both in the world and in Fedora repos. I'd rather have G3 as default than another semi-beta or monolithic-DE-maintained-by-two-or-three people stuff. * gnome devs are systematically removing features many former gnome users thought were useful, and sometimes adding them back again after a year or so of complains. We perceive that as devs doing whatever they wont and ignoring the real users in favour of some imaginary ones. * huge overuse of symbolic icons (this includes the new anaconda) * maybe I forgot something Not every former gnome user agrees with these, but they're probably the ones that are most prominent. Martin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Lennart, For better or worse Vincent Untz had people express themselves on systemd at FOSDEM, and pretty much everyone thought you were doing great. I can understand your regrets that it was less the case for your GNOME 3 friends, but that should not overshadow this great achievement of the systemd team. Given the scope of your work, I don't think anyone would have predicted a week ago systemd could attain such a complete adhesion. That is something to remember and rejoice on. -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Le Ven 8 février 2013 21:30, Debarshi Ray a écrit : >> The FOSDEM poll was stacked ??? no one really wanted to hurt Vincent >> Untz >> too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of >> GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people >> do >> >> [...] >> >> So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward moment >> for >> everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the positive >> energy >> that permeated other presentations). > > Sounds like bitterness to me. […] > Now that the other side of the argument is coming to light, you are trying > to cling on to your vociferous claims at all costs. Do you realise my "vociferous claims" didn't even include an opinion on which side of the argument the audience was leaning towards most? Can you please stop the stupid bunker mentality? I stand by my statement that this was a very awkward moment, with Vincent and the GNOME team radiating unhappiness and pretty much everyone else being perplexed and wondering whether they should take offence at being accused of being mad or if it was some weird form of apology. Certainly not the kind of celebration being portrayed here. As for the vocifering, I'll leave that to others. -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
> Keep in mind that to get to the point of installing an "alternative-only > DE", in current Fedora, you normally first have a full blown Gnome3 > installed, which is close to impossible to get rid of. [citation needed] Cheers, Debarshi -- If computers are going to revolutionize education, then steam engines and cars and electricity would have done it too. -- Arjun Shankar pgpCXShvAfgaH.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
> I know this applies, but installing gnome-shell pulls in gdm. > > I.e. removing gdm without removing gnone-shell is not possible. Because gnome-shell (running in a special mode) is nowadays the greeter used by GDM. That does not mean GDM won't let you log into KDE if you have it installed. As for GDM requiring gnome-shell, I don't think it should come across as surprising because GDM is GNOME's display manager. If you dislike GNOME so much then get yourself a different display manager. Cheers, Debarshi -- If computers are going to revolutionize education, then steam engines and cars and electricity would have done it too. -- Arjun Shankar pgpeO6FmBx7O0.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
> The FOSDEM poll was stacked ??? no one really wanted to hurt Vincent Untz > too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of > GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people do > > [...] > > So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward moment for > everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the positive energy > that permeated other presentations). Sounds like bitterness to me. First we had the rabid hordes of hatred mongers running surveys, polls and what not to support their claims of how GNOME 3 sucks and no one uses it anymore and so on and so forth. Now that the other side of the argument is coming to light, you are trying to cling on to your vociferous claims at all costs. For what it is worth, I have been using GNOME since 2004 and absolutely loved the move to GNOME3. Cheers, Debarshi -- If computers are going to revolutionize education, then steam engines and cars and electricity would have done it too. -- Arjun Shankar pgpw1I3aTrmeb.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Fri, 08.02.13 20:35, Nicolas Mailhot (nicolas.mail...@laposte.net) wrote: > > Le Ven 8 février 2013 13:22, Olav Vitters a écrit : > > On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote: > >> I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original > >> statement, namely that there is a "completely different target > >> audience" for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3. > >> > >> I am that datapoint. > > > > As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to raise > > their hands). No idea how representative that it. > > The FOSDEM poll was stacked — no one really wanted to hurt Vincent Untz > too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of > GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people do > not go to FOSDEM to fight. What is telling however is the complete refusal > of the audience to put systemd and Gnome 3 in the same bucket. Lennart's > efforts to explain his project, understand sysadmin needs, provide a > smooth transition and keep current usages working clearly paid off > there. Actually, don't try to separate us systemd folks too much from the GNOME3 folks. I as one of the systemd guys, am a GNOME3 guy too. I fully support GNOME3's goals, much of my work I see as groundwork to achieve GNOME3's goals, and I believe GNOME3 is the best thing that ever happened to the Linux desktop. When I see a GNOME2 desktop it appears like a trip down memory lane to me, and even though it was only a few years ago that GNOME2 was the state of the art of a Linux desktop it now appears to be as old as Windows 3.1 to me. And I am really thankful I don't have to use Windows 3.1 anymore. So yeah, I'll jump in defending GNOME 3 any time, thank you very much, even though I know that these discussions will never stop any haters from hating, and never stop them from doing this publicly, and repetitively and loudly on mailing lists such as this one. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
I'm not sure there's any place in our community where it is acceptable for people "to go to fight." Nor do I think that would be healthy. I would prefer to think that noone in our community really wants to hurt anyone else. I think if anyone showed up at any face-to-face meeting specifically with the intent "to fight" or to "hurt someone" they would feel intimidated and would modify their behavior accordingly. So I really don't understand why FOSDEM as a collection of individuals at a face-to-face meeting. would be any different than another face-to-face meeting. But I will say that I would prefer it if our written communication channels were similarly less tolerant of individuals who show up primarily "to fight" or are intent on "hurting someone." Text communication channels, are inherently prone to a loss of civility, and by collectively condoning behavior we'd otherwise find uncomfortable in a face to face setting we hasten the debasement of the level of discourse therein. -jef On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le Ven 8 février 2013 13:22, Olav Vitters a écrit : >> On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote: >>> I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original >>> statement, namely that there is a "completely different target >>> audience" for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3. >>> >>> I am that datapoint. >> >> As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to raise >> their hands). No idea how representative that it. > > The FOSDEM poll was stacked — no one really wanted to hurt Vincent Untz > too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of > GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people do > not go to FOSDEM to fight. What is telling however is the complete refusal > of the audience to put systemd and Gnome 3 in the same bucket. Lennart's > efforts to explain his project, understand sysadmin needs, provide a > smooth transition and keep current usages working clearly paid off there. > > So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward moment for > everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the positive energy > that permeated other presentations). > > -- > Nicolas Mailhot > > -- > devel mailing list > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 20:35:56 +0100 "Nicolas Mailhot" wrote: > > Le Ven 8 février 2013 13:22, Olav Vitters a écrit : > > On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote: > >> I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original > >> statement, namely that there is a "completely different target > >> audience" for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3. > >> > >> I am that datapoint. > > > > As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to > > raise their hands). No idea how representative that it. > > The FOSDEM poll was stacked — no one really wanted to hurt Vincent > Untz too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this > knot of GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, > and people do not go to FOSDEM to fight. What is telling however is > the complete refusal of the audience to put systemd and Gnome 3 in > the same bucket. Lennart's efforts to explain his project, understand > sysadmin needs, provide a smooth transition and keep current usages > working clearly paid off there. > > So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward > moment for everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the > positive energy that permeated other presentations). > To be honest, I don't think any poll will ever suffice for this topic. Nor do I think a poll is what's needed. It should simply be easier to switch to a desktop that Works For You, especially after installation, and even before if possible. That way we can keep the anti-GNOME-3 people happy as well. In the end I guess we can't get rid of the fanatical "GNOME 3 is for tablets only" meme (and others like it that I personally don't agree with), but hey, I don't mind as long as I can ignore those. But I will keep objecting to the single-sided argument that there is no "GNOME 2 user" that likes GNOME 3. I fully support those who have tried and rejected the new stuff -- as long as they don't impose their opinion on me :-) --Stijn -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Le Ven 8 février 2013 13:22, Olav Vitters a écrit : > On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote: >> I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original >> statement, namely that there is a "completely different target >> audience" for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3. >> >> I am that datapoint. > > As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to raise > their hands). No idea how representative that it. The FOSDEM poll was stacked — no one really wanted to hurt Vincent Untz too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people do not go to FOSDEM to fight. What is telling however is the complete refusal of the audience to put systemd and Gnome 3 in the same bucket. Lennart's efforts to explain his project, understand sysadmin needs, provide a smooth transition and keep current usages working clearly paid off there. So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward moment for everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the positive energy that permeated other presentations). -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 02/06/2013 08:42 AM, Stijn Hoop wrote: >> >> On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 21:46:32 +0100 >> Ralf Corsepius wrote: >>> >>> The actual problem is the current Gnome 3 being an entirely different >>> product than Gnome 2, which usability-wise has *nothing* in common >>> with Gnome2 and addresses a completely different target audience. >> >> >> Ralf, could you please stop this generalization. You have been >> conveniently ignoring posts to the contrary, including mine. > > > Sorry, I don't see what I am generalizing. > > Gnome3 and Gnome2's GUI working principles are entirely different and > therefore are catering the demands of different target audiences. Citation needed for implication "is different" -> "catering the demands of different target audiences" . -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote: > I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original > statement, namely that there is a "completely different target > audience" for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3. > > I am that datapoint. As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to raise their hands). No idea how representative that it. Also people who didn't like it, etc. As said during that presentation, figuring out if something is felt by either a small focal minority or that it is generic (representative) is pretty difficult and anyone is of course feel free to assist. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:47:48 +0100 Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 02/06/2013 08:42 AM, Stijn Hoop wrote: > > On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 21:46:32 +0100 > > Ralf Corsepius wrote: > >> The actual problem is the current Gnome 3 being an entirely > >> different product than Gnome 2, which usability-wise has *nothing* > >> in common with Gnome2 and addresses a completely different target > >> audience. > > > > Ralf, could you please stop this generalization. You have been > > conveniently ignoring posts to the contrary, including mine. > > Sorry, I don't see what I am generalizing. > > Gnome3 and Gnome2's GUI working principles are entirely different and > therefore are catering the demands of different target audiences. > They are similarly different as WinXP and Android are different in > their GUIs' working principles. > > I can not help you if do not understand what I am talking about. > > Ralf > I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original statement, namely that there is a "completely different target audience" for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3. I am that datapoint. I know that it is my anecdata, but I am pretty sure that I have not yet read any actual facts supporting your side of the argument as well. Furthermore I am pretty sure that I am not the only one enjoying GNOME 3, while having enjoyed GNOME 2, having read the other posts in this thread. Hopefully that is clearer, regards, --Stijn -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 02/06/2013 08:42 AM, Stijn Hoop wrote: On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 21:46:32 +0100 Ralf Corsepius wrote: The actual problem is the current Gnome 3 being an entirely different product than Gnome 2, which usability-wise has *nothing* in common with Gnome2 and addresses a completely different target audience. Ralf, could you please stop this generalization. You have been conveniently ignoring posts to the contrary, including mine. Sorry, I don't see what I am generalizing. Gnome3 and Gnome2's GUI working principles are entirely different and therefore are catering the demands of different target audiences. They are similarly different as WinXP and Android are different in their GUIs' working principles. I can not help you if do not understand what I am talking about. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 11:13:48AM -0500, Pavel Simerda wrote: > I wouldn't ask specific people to actually work on it. But it would be > nice if the core developers provided more support, feature stability > and API stability. To ask them to actively encourage alternative GUIs > and allow them to be built on top of the Gnome stack instead of > forking some of its projects... would be probably too much. We specifically allowed gnome-panel and the entire fallback mode to be forked / taken over once we received request for that. See the blogpost from Vincent Untz and the release email announcements for details. Also, gnome-main-menu is under the maintainership (@ git.gnome.org) of the MATE developers. > If only it could be possible to make most of the Gnome devs learn from > the community feedback instead of giving marvellous talks at > conferences about how much the community is wrong. Seems you did not attend the talk. Suggest actually watching the video. Apologies for adding some facts to this discussion :P -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 02/05/2013 12:00 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
What's worse is that it's harder than it used to be to change the
desktop---desktop style is no longer a login-time selection.
It certainly is. Every login manager offers that option
Ah, another dummkopf moment for me---it only shows up when you actually
installed the alternatives ('yum groupinstall xfce').
In retrospect it makes sense, but is not very discoverable.
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Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
- Original Message - > From: "Reindl Harald" > Am 05.02.2013 22:21, schrieb Luya Tshimbalanga: > > On 05/02/13 12:09 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > Gnome 3 is still Gnome. Both MATE and Cinnamon which came years > > after Gnome 3 via Gnome-Shell, are reactionary for > > self-interest because these DE can easily reproduced through > > Gnome-Shell extensions meaning they will become > > irrelevant in a future > > and if the developers (in this case GNOME developers) would > be less ignorant while punish their users they would never > became relevent because there would have been no reason to fork I couldn't agree more. I can hardly imagine how an open project can be so careless about such large groups of their own users. > > because these DE can easily reproduced through Gnome-Shell > > extensions > > and why the hell did upstream not do this work from the very frist beginning? I wouldn't ask specific people to actually work on it. But it would be nice if the core developers provided more support, feature stability and API stability. To ask them to actively encourage alternative GUIs and allow them to be built on top of the Gnome stack instead of forking some of its projects... would be probably too much. If only it could be possible to make most of the Gnome devs learn from the community feedback instead of giving marvellous talks at conferences about how much the community is wrong. Cheers, Pavel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Am 05.02.2013 22:21, schrieb Luya Tshimbalanga: > On 05/02/13 12:09 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> >> In the Gnome2 days you had choices between functionally similar DEs. >> >> Times have changed ... Gnome has been forked multiply (Gnome3, MATE, >> Cinammon), xfce/enlightenment are back. >> > Gnome 3 is still Gnome. Both MATE and Cinnamon which came years after Gnome 3 > via Gnome-Shell, are reactionary for > self-interest because these DE can easily reproduced through Gnome-Shell > extensions meaning they will become > irrelevant in a future and if the developers (in this case GNOME developers) would be less ignorant while punish their users they would never became relevent because there would have been no reason to fork > because these DE can easily reproduced through Gnome-Shell extensions and why the hell did upstream not do this work from the very frist beginning? my definition of REwrite and optimize is * clean up the code base * provide the same functionality as before * fix bugs * release signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
Am 05.02.2013 21:31, schrieb Ian Malone: > On 5 February 2013 20:10, Alec Leamas wrote: > >> I wouldn't say Fedora "follows blindly" but rather chooses an upstream from >> some alternatives (their ability to handle feedback from us beeing one ot >> the criterias). > > Gnome has been the default, unless I'm misremebering since *before* > Fedora (RH8/9 or earlier). That's not incompatible with 'chooses an > upstream from some alternatives' but does suggest some inertia. Maybe > if Gnome really thinks distros might drop them they'd think harder > about introducing unwanted workflow changes every other release. exactly that is my point as long it is tolerated from any distro for any upstream project do beark any compatibility why should developers care about anything and spent time to think if the way they are going is really the best for the users currently the only reaction of many open source projects is "it is free so who do you think you are" - by some changes i say "thank god it is free and not paied for it" signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 12:04:44AM +0100, Rave it wrote: > Your look in a crystal ball is far away from reality like the topic > himself. > Pls, give more to laugh. > and stay close to facts instead of posting your personal > perspective. > This doesn't help us really. Pot calling the kettle black. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 08:06:51PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > what makes me rellay angry (as one who never used and will use > GNOME and i knew GNOME 1.0 and KDE 1.0 as well where most users > of today not heard about linux at all) is that the GNOME developers > did NOT learn ANYTHING by the KDE4.0 disaster and that distributions > are not straight enough to show ignorant upstream "if you think you > can abuse all your users by present a completly different desktop with Please also look at all the changes we made and are making based on the feedback we have gotten over the various releases. It is often listed in the release notes, blogged about, etc. Extension system is a bit forgotten in the announcements, but that went from fully experimental to beta in just a few releases. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 09:28:16PM -0800, Eric Bergen wrote: > Success! I've switched over to Cinnamon. The start style menu is back > and I am happy. I'm sure I could get used to gnome-shell but my first > experience wasn't a good one. To add: - Cinnamon was forked from gnome-shell, so any slowness you see in gnome-shell should be shared with Cinnamon, else the bugfix should be upstreamed. People have been saying that Cinnamon doesn't seem to include bugfixes made in gnome-shell though. Not verified/checked if that is true. - GNOME 3.8 will have a new mode with some kind of start menu and a few other things (being vague because it is in development, not released yet, plus I have not tried it yet) -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 02:22:21PM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote:
> Normally I try not to do this, but: what he said.
Vincent Untz asked for a show of hands of people who used GNOME 2, GNOME
3, switched, etc. Recommend seeing the FOSDEM video. Loads of people
indicated that they use GNOME 3, though less than GNOME 2. A while later
he asked who loved GNOME 3. Not sure how many GNOME 3 users love it due
to the time difference. There was one person who uses GNOME 3 and at the
same time hates it.
Anyway, recommend seeing the video once available, better than my guesswork :)
Note: due to the topic ("GNOME community gone crazy?"), I didn't expect
that many people who liked it would join actually. Note that the people
who work on GNOME in some way sat together, only judged on people I did
not recognize as people who help out GNOME in some way.
--
Regards,
Olav
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Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:58:22 +0800 Mathieu Bridon wrote: > But your statement was even less backed by data. ;) > I was assuming the case of newcomers doing the switch "by themselves", coming from Windows (supposedly pre Win8), in rare cases from Mac OS X. My data is generally known -- just look over the internet, or even usage statistics (yeah I know they're far from exact). The introduction of gnome shell and ubuntu unity is the reason why cinnamon and mate exist and why XFCE regained popularity. Sure, some people later switched back to GS or UU, but that no longer counts as *first* impressions. Even many of the GS promoters are defending it with words like "after using it a bit you'll start to really like it". That's not *first* impression. Your Mum and Dad are in a different situation -- you "forced" them to use GS, they've been put in a different kind of situation than newcomer that decided to try Fedora by himself. But yeah, I'm *not* claiming I'm correct. These are my impressions and opinions only ;-) Martin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Wed, 2013-02-06 at 10:01 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 02/05/2013 07:49 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Tue, 2013-02-05 at 17:17 +, Tom Hughes wrote: > >> On 05/02/13 16:58, Przemek Klosowski wrote: > >> > >>> What's worse is that it's harder than it used to be to change the > >>> desktop---desktop style is no longer a login-time selection. In fact, I > >>> am not sure what is the recommended method nowadays--- groupinstall KDE > >>> + groupremove Gnome? but this can't be right for XFCE which I think > >>> shares stuff with Gnome.. > >> > >> If you want to change what display manager is used then just change what > >> /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service points to. > >> > >> What desktop a display manager starts will be a display manager specific > >> configuration option. > > > > ...but as Rahul said, they all allow you to log in to any desktop. There > > seems to be a meme in this thread that GDM does not, but that's not > > correct, it does. The choice is not visible unless you actually have > > multiple desktops installed, but when you do, it gives you the option. > > I know this applies, but installing gnome-shell pulls in gdm. Wouldn't that just be a packaging bug? gnome-shell requires gdm-libs gdm requires gdm-libs The requirement gdm-libs has on gdm seems unneeded at first glance. -- Mathieu -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 02/05/2013 07:49 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Tue, 2013-02-05 at 17:17 +, Tom Hughes wrote: On 05/02/13 16:58, Przemek Klosowski wrote: What's worse is that it's harder than it used to be to change the desktop---desktop style is no longer a login-time selection. In fact, I am not sure what is the recommended method nowadays--- groupinstall KDE + groupremove Gnome? but this can't be right for XFCE which I think shares stuff with Gnome.. If you want to change what display manager is used then just change what /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service points to. What desktop a display manager starts will be a display manager specific configuration option. ...but as Rahul said, they all allow you to log in to any desktop. There seems to be a meme in this thread that GDM does not, but that's not correct, it does. The choice is not visible unless you actually have multiple desktops installed, but when you do, it gives you the option. I know this applies, but installing gnome-shell pulls in gdm. I.e. removing gdm without removing gnone-shell is not possible. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Wed, 2013-02-06 at 09:42 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > First impression does a lot and gnome shell isn't especially good with > *first* impressions. In my experience, it is actually brilliant for first impressions. I recently upgraded my parents' computer from Fedora 16 with GNOME Fallback to Fedora 18 with GNOME Shell. I had to explain quickly to my mum (a basic computer user), where her stuff was, and her first words were (about the overview) "I like this, it's much easier to know where my windows are" (she never understood the concept of the taskbar, she always thought her windows were disappearing and kept opening more) For my dad (even less skilled than my mum), I rushed to the computer yelling "wait! I have to explain the new things to you!!!" and found him already doing his stuff. When I asked, he said "Oh, I guessed 'activities' was for doing stuff, so I went there and found the orange icon to go to the Internet". Both found it easier to use than GNOME 2 or GNOME 3 Fallback. Both liked it much better, from the first time they tried it. Granted, it's purely anecdata and they probably aren't the Fedora target user. But your statement was even less backed by data. ;) -- Mathieu -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 15:53:20 -0800 Adam Williamson wrote: > You're a new Linux user, you go to our download page, and instead of a > simple big green Download button, it starts asking you questions about > what 'desktop environment' you want? What the hell is this crap? Well, than with the current model you either: * download an ISO that fails to boot, because you still have a 32bit machine -> never think about Fedora again. * See gnome shell, something totally different to what you've ever used -> what the hell is this crap? Walk away. * If you happen to like (Yay, it looks like my Android phone!) it you'll get greeted by installed with grey icons -> wait what? Is that actually for a computer with a colour display? Is that thing modern? I don't want to use oldish stuff. Walk away. * And if you still persist, you get greeted with an installer that's completely different to anything you've ever used. Where the hell is the "next" button? Have I forgot anything? I'm not feeling safe installing this. Walk away. If you want to target this kind of users, you need to provide them with similar-to-Windows experience -- or have a really strong marketing, like Ubuntu does, to make users feel it's cool to use something they don't know/like at first -- if you don't want them to quit instantly. First impression does a lot and gnome shell isn't especially good with *first* impressions. I think the no-single-default DE is better. Let's say I think it's better to go with more "defaults" -- i.e. the initial choice would be of DEs that are known to be well maintained and supported in Fedora. That's GNOME and KDE at the very least. The app defaults are then up to the various desktops' teams -> they would want to make their desktop appeal to users if they cannot count on being downloaded directly from homepage, right? And lets hope (WRT the bottom couple of points above) that anacoda UI gets better in F20 (I generally agree with the reasons why was anaconda finally rewritten). Martin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 21:46:32 +0100 Ralf Corsepius wrote: > The actual problem is the current Gnome 3 being an entirely different > product than Gnome 2, which usability-wise has *nothing* in common > with Gnome2 and addresses a completely different target audience. Ralf, could you please stop this generalization. You have been conveniently ignoring posts to the contrary, including mine. --Stijn -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
> Message: 10 > Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 13:21:03 -0800 > From: Luya Tshimbalanga > To: Development discussions related to Fedora > > Subject: Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop > Message-ID: <511177bf.1020...@fedoraproject.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 05/02/13 12:09 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > > > In the Gnome2 days you had choices between functionally similar DEs. > > > > Times have changed ... Gnome has been forked multiply (Gnome3, > > MATE, Cinammon), xfce/enlightenment are back. > > > Gnome 3 is still Gnome. Both MATE and Cinnamon which came years after > Gnome 3 via Gnome-Shell, are reactionary for self-interest because > these DE can easily reproduced through Gnome-Shell extensions meaning > they will become irrelevant in a future. > > Luya > Your look in a crystal ball is far away from reality like the topic himself. Pls, give more to laugh. and stay close to facts instead of posting your personal perspective. This doesn't help us really. As a former mate maintainer for fedora and very closed to mate upstream, i prefer a change to KDE now, because it is more stable than gnome-shell and has a great and stable developer base. my 10 cent, Wolfgang -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > On 05/02/13 12:09 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > >> >> In the Gnome2 days you had choices between functionally similar DEs. >> >> Times have changed ... Gnome has been forked multiply (Gnome3, MATE, >> Cinammon), xfce/enlightenment are back. >> >> Gnome 3 is still Gnome. Both MATE and Cinnamon which came years after > Gnome 3 via Gnome-Shell, are reactionary for self-interest because these DE > can easily reproduced through Gnome-Shell extensions meaning they will > become irrelevant in a future. > > Luya While I agree that Gnome 3 is still Gnome... it is still Gnome in the sense that Windows 8 is still just the new version of Windows. Also, "years after"? I first read about MATE on the Arch forums back in 2011, a few months after the final release of Gnome 3 (which was in April 2011): https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=121162 Likewise, the first post about Cinnamon on the Linux Mint website I can find was in December 2011. Unless you were referring to the Gnome 3 development cycle, I suppose. For the record, I'm pretty sure replacing Gnome 3 with Cinnamon isn't the best idea. (I think if we change the default at all it should probably be to KDE instead, but that's just me). However, let's not pretend Gnome 3 (or "Gnome 3 with Gnome Shell") isn't a very different desktop environment from its predecessor, even though "it is still Gnome". Ben -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
On 2013-02-05 21:46, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 02/05/2013 09:31 PM, Ian Malone wrote: On 5 February 2013 20:10, Alec Leamas wrote: I wouldn't say Fedora "follows blindly" but rather chooses an upstream from some alternatives (their ability to handle feedback from us beeing one ot the criterias). Gnome has been the default, unless I'm misremebering since *before* Fedora (RH8/9 or earlier). That's not incompatible with 'chooses an upstream from some alternatives' but does suggest some inertia. Maybe if Gnome really thinks distros might drop them they'd think harder about introducing unwanted workflow changes every other release. The actual problem is the current Gnome 3 being an entirely different product than Gnome 2, which usability-wise has *nothing* in common with Gnome2 and addresses a completely different target audience. You ordered Gnome and have been served Pizza for a long time - now you're being served Burgers :-) Ralf Well, from a nutrition perspective that's actually a big step forward. Perhaps time to trust the chef? ;) --alec -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
