Re: [freenet-dev] Bank account status
Hi Ian, Thanks for reviewing the document. My rationale for the repetition was that the reader should quickly know what the message is about, but we should also close with a summary of what we're asking them for. I'm working on trimming out the mentions in the middle. Maybe if the document can be trimmed to a shorter size, the end repetition is no longer necessary though? The other thing I wanted to be sure to do, is not just say "To whom it may concern: hey, we need money", we need to directly ask them to donate. Maybe I'm off-base on those points, but that was my rationale anyways. Cheers, Dan On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 6:08 AM, Ian Clarke wrote: > On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 1:01 AM, Dan Roberts wrote: >> >> >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EohzxhrgM1Ky4CaKpk72WiUNepFeT5krdReEKxDyL8o/edit?usp=sharing >> >> I've annotated lots of things I don't like with comments, I'm sure people >> will find many more things they hate. That's fine, be brutal. It's probably >> also too long... > > > A great start, but definitely way too long, and quite repetitive (we tell > them we need funds about 6 times!). We should remove any sentence that is > repetitive or otherwise redundant. > > Ian. > > > -- > Ian Clarke > Founder, The Freenet Project > Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Bank account status
Hi guys! As you know , this month the ProtonMail was the victim of attacks for a few days, and they made a simple campaign to raise funds, but that proved functional. See here: https://www.gofundme.com/protonmaildefense We can think of something? Hugs Medrado Em Ter, 2015-11-17 às 08:08 -0600, Ian Clarke escreveu: > On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 1:01 AM, Dan Roberts > wrote: > > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EohzxhrgM1Ky4CaKpk72WiUNepFeT5k > > rdReEKxDyL8o/edit?usp=sharing > > > > I've annotated lots of things I don't like with comments, I'm sure > > people > > will find many more things they hate. That's fine, be brutal. It's > > probably > > also too long... > > > > A great start, but definitely way too long, and quite repetitive (we > tell > them we need funds about 6 times!). We should remove any sentence > that is > repetitive or otherwise redundant. > > Ian. > > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Bank account status
On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 1:01 AM, Dan Roberts wrote: > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EohzxhrgM1Ky4CaKpk72WiUNepFeT5krdReEKxDyL8o/edit?usp=sharing > > I've annotated lots of things I don't like with comments, I'm sure people > will find many more things they hate. That's fine, be brutal. It's probably > also too long... > A great start, but definitely way too long, and quite repetitive (we tell them we need funds about 6 times!). We should remove any sentence that is repetitive or otherwise redundant. Ian. -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Bank account status
On Monday, November 16, 2015 11:01:50 PM Dan Roberts wrote:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EohzxhrgM1Ky4CaKpk72WiUNepFeT5krdReEKxDy
> L8o/edit?usp=sharing
Huge thanks for dealing with this!
Here's my feedback (you can ignore my IRC private messages if you read the
following):
- I can't figure out how to specify my name without creating a Google account.
My contributions only appear as anonymous. Further, does this thing support a
version history? Otherwise, vandalism is difficult to detect.
Maybe use the Etherpad/Piratepad stuff instead for easier contribution?
Did you notice that Steve had started one already anyway?
http://piratepad.net/aZQoDXr5Ym
The above is also why I'm only sending you most of my feedback as mail for now
instead of fixing it myself right away :) I've commented some stuff there
though, and fixed some minor things which don't need discussion.
- It should mention what we plan to implement using WoT in a more concise
manner, and more close to the start of the document. I'd put that as an
enumeration, i.e. something like:
* Anonymous forum systems. Already implemented, only needs polishing to be
deployed.
* Anonymous filesharing. This is our #1 uservoice feature request. Will be
implemented using the forum systems.
* Anonymous social networking / microblogging (= Twitter). Already
implemented, only needs polishing to be deployed.
* Anonymous blogging. Already implemented and deployed, only needs polishing
to be enabled by default.
* Anonymous online shops. Can be implemented using the forum systems, or by
supporting OpenBazaar.
* Anonymous email. Already implemented and deployed, only needs polishing to
be enabled by default.
You could figure out more for that list from
https://wiki.freenetproject.org/Projects
but I think what I listed is already the most important ones - Freetalk, Sone,
FlogHelper, Freemail. Those are enough anyway, it's doubtful whether they can
finished with a year of funding.
These should be mentioned at the beginning due to the reasons my previous mail
in this thread described: Our lack of new features over the years sucks. So we
should prominently tell users which features they will get.
You might also want to mention another aspect I described in the previous
mail: Most of those features are already *implemented*, they only need
polishing + deployment, which is shame.
- Keep the document a bit shorter. Should fit 1 page IMHO. For example, remove
the Github/DVCS stuff, would only be interesting for developers, not users. I
also implicitly already recommended to shorten the OpenBazaar stuff by only
having it in the aforementioned enumeration.
- Here's the year count you want to fill in: I've been with Freenet for 7
years. 2 as an employee, 5 as a volunteer. ("/msg NickServ info xor-freenet"
to validate :)
- I'd use "Web of Trust" instead of "WebOfTrust".
Other than that, it's a really nice writeup already, and I'm confident we can
use it after some tweaks! :) Thanks again
signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Bank account status
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EohzxhrgM1Ky4CaKpk72WiUNepFeT5krdReEKxDyL8o/edit?usp=sharing I've annotated lots of things I don't like with comments, I'm sure people will find many more things they hate. That's fine, be brutal. It's probably also too long... Note I typically leave each sentence on a new line for my own convenience when editing in Vim, now that it's on google docs it doesn't really matter... I'm not really attached to anything specific in there, but do note I think it's important we provide SOME kind of vision of the future to look forward to. Cheers, Dan P.S. If anyone is willing, I'm still hoping for review on the Hackathon announcement's piratepad... On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Ian Clarke wrote: > That sounds good, recommend that you paste it into a Google Doc and allow > people to edit or make suggestions (you'll need to adjust the sharing > settings) > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Dan Roberts wrote: > >> I offered on IRC to write a preliminary donation request message to base >> our solicitations on. I've revised it twice as of last night, and I think >> after one more revision this evening and I'll open it up to everyone else >> for comment (~10PM PST). I'm not particularly happy with it at the moment, >> but actually it may generate more interest if everyone hates it ;-). From >> there we can revise it and begin adapting the message to different donors >> (I believe potential donors deserve a personal request, the purpose of my >> draft is only to get the ball rolling and serve as a starting point) >> >> This is not meant as a replacement for exploring indiegogo/kickstarter >> though. Something like that would still be good, it just strikes me as a >> mid-term project, not a short term effort to get back on track. >> >> Cheers, >> Dan >> On Nov 16, 2015 10:54 AM, "xor" wrote: >> >>> On Monday, November 16, 2015 10:52:16 AM Ian Clarke wrote: >>> > I am pretty convinced that it would be a bad idea to allow Xor to >>> continue >>> > working if the project doesn't have sufficient funds. >>> > >>> > Aside from any potential legal problems, imagine what our pitch to >>> donors >>> > becomes at that point - "Hey, donate money so that we can pay off our >>> > debts". Not exactly a compelling pitch :/ >>> > >>> > And meanwhile Xor is potentially getting himself into a difficult >>> financial >>> > situation. >>> >>> Argh, I had just messaged you that I'd like to postpone the final >>> discussion >>> of my offer "continue working with payment delayed as interest-free debt" >>> until Thursday :| >>> I need to figure out some real life stuff related to that. >>> >>> But well, my offer still is available though. >>> Freenet is more important to me than some temporary financial hassle. >>> >>> Thursday will just make me figure out how bad a "no" to my offer would >>> be for >>> me, which is why I'd prefer to not hear the decision until then. >>> >>> But, as said elsewhere, even if my offer is not accepted, I will: >>> 1) *not* seek a different job for now (= a year at least probably) and >>> use my >>> free time to resolve the major real life house cleanup/selling for my >>> mom. >>> 2) stay available to resume my job once we have funding - my mom for sure >>> would accept me to reduce my efforts for her at any time. >>> 3) voluntarily continue replying on IRC / the mailing lists. >>> 4) voluntarily at least provide very basic maintenance for Web of Trust / >>> Freetalk to prevent user frustration. So please keep bug reports >>> directed at >>> me :) >>> >>> Nevertheless, please do notice that I cannot "officially" provide >>> volunteering >>> anymore due to my life situation. I am only offering this to keep the >>> project >>> alive by dealing with urgent stuff. >>> There is years work of worth at my mom's to be done, and if I do invest >>> my >>> spare motivation for volunteering, it should be for her first (yes, >>> she'll >>> pay me food, but that's about it :). So please just keep on mind that it >>> would >>> be a benefit if I could return to paid work ASAP, as earning money is >>> something I could justify to have a similarly significant priority. >>> I'll try to do my part in ensuring resuming of my job by helping at the >>> fundraising efforts. >>> >>> > If we want >>> > Xor to keep working, we need a strategy for raising more money. I >>> think >>> > this strategy will need to be to achieve specific goals that we lay >>> out. >>> >>> I'd say we already have a strategy: >>> >>> 0a) Finish the fundraising bar on the website. Done already by the >>> volunteers! >>> Thanks again. >>> >>> 0b) Maybe deploy the next Freenet release so my work of the past 6 >>> months is >>> available to the users actually. Would be polite to provide the result >>> of the >>> previous money to the users before asking for more money. The code is >>> finished >>> from my side, it is just waiting for a fred release to be bundled with. >>> Steve >>> needs to decide whether this can happe
Re: [freenet-dev] Bank account status
That sounds good, recommend that you paste it into a Google Doc and allow people to edit or make suggestions (you'll need to adjust the sharing settings) On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Dan Roberts wrote: > I offered on IRC to write a preliminary donation request message to base > our solicitations on. I've revised it twice as of last night, and I think > after one more revision this evening and I'll open it up to everyone else > for comment (~10PM PST). I'm not particularly happy with it at the moment, > but actually it may generate more interest if everyone hates it ;-). From > there we can revise it and begin adapting the message to different donors > (I believe potential donors deserve a personal request, the purpose of my > draft is only to get the ball rolling and serve as a starting point) > > This is not meant as a replacement for exploring indiegogo/kickstarter > though. Something like that would still be good, it just strikes me as a > mid-term project, not a short term effort to get back on track. > > Cheers, > Dan > On Nov 16, 2015 10:54 AM, "xor" wrote: > >> On Monday, November 16, 2015 10:52:16 AM Ian Clarke wrote: >> > I am pretty convinced that it would be a bad idea to allow Xor to >> continue >> > working if the project doesn't have sufficient funds. >> > >> > Aside from any potential legal problems, imagine what our pitch to >> donors >> > becomes at that point - "Hey, donate money so that we can pay off our >> > debts". Not exactly a compelling pitch :/ >> > >> > And meanwhile Xor is potentially getting himself into a difficult >> financial >> > situation. >> >> Argh, I had just messaged you that I'd like to postpone the final >> discussion >> of my offer "continue working with payment delayed as interest-free debt" >> until Thursday :| >> I need to figure out some real life stuff related to that. >> >> But well, my offer still is available though. >> Freenet is more important to me than some temporary financial hassle. >> >> Thursday will just make me figure out how bad a "no" to my offer would be >> for >> me, which is why I'd prefer to not hear the decision until then. >> >> But, as said elsewhere, even if my offer is not accepted, I will: >> 1) *not* seek a different job for now (= a year at least probably) and >> use my >> free time to resolve the major real life house cleanup/selling for my mom. >> 2) stay available to resume my job once we have funding - my mom for sure >> would accept me to reduce my efforts for her at any time. >> 3) voluntarily continue replying on IRC / the mailing lists. >> 4) voluntarily at least provide very basic maintenance for Web of Trust / >> Freetalk to prevent user frustration. So please keep bug reports directed >> at >> me :) >> >> Nevertheless, please do notice that I cannot "officially" provide >> volunteering >> anymore due to my life situation. I am only offering this to keep the >> project >> alive by dealing with urgent stuff. >> There is years work of worth at my mom's to be done, and if I do invest my >> spare motivation for volunteering, it should be for her first (yes, she'll >> pay me food, but that's about it :). So please just keep on mind that it >> would >> be a benefit if I could return to paid work ASAP, as earning money is >> something I could justify to have a similarly significant priority. >> I'll try to do my part in ensuring resuming of my job by helping at the >> fundraising efforts. >> >> > If we want >> > Xor to keep working, we need a strategy for raising more money. I think >> > this strategy will need to be to achieve specific goals that we lay out. >> >> I'd say we already have a strategy: >> >> 0a) Finish the fundraising bar on the website. Done already by the >> volunteers! >> Thanks again. >> >> 0b) Maybe deploy the next Freenet release so my work of the past 6 months >> is >> available to the users actually. Would be polite to provide the result of >> the >> previous money to the users before asking for more money. The code is >> finished >> from my side, it is just waiting for a fred release to be bundled with. >> Steve >> needs to decide whether this can happen soon, or will take too long. If it >> takes to long, we can ignore this step. >> >> 1) Put a news article on website titled "We've run out of money". Notice: >> I >> suggested the prerequisite of first writing a huge list of news sites to >> submit it to. We need to do this *first* before putting the article up >> because: "News" contains "new". If it takes us too long to submit the >> article, >> it will be old, and thus news sites will ignore it. So we need to figure >> out >> who to send it to first. >> >> 2) Submit the article to many news sites. >> >> 3) Ask those entities directly for funds: >> https://wiki.freenetproject.org/Fundraising >> >> I will try to help with all of the above, if not do them myself. But to be >> honest I would be happy if I don't have to do it alone: I'm still a >> programmer, not a marketing guy, so my social skills
Re: [freenet-dev] Bank account status
I offered on IRC to write a preliminary donation request message to base our solicitations on. I've revised it twice as of last night, and I think after one more revision this evening and I'll open it up to everyone else for comment (~10PM PST). I'm not particularly happy with it at the moment, but actually it may generate more interest if everyone hates it ;-). From there we can revise it and begin adapting the message to different donors (I believe potential donors deserve a personal request, the purpose of my draft is only to get the ball rolling and serve as a starting point) This is not meant as a replacement for exploring indiegogo/kickstarter though. Something like that would still be good, it just strikes me as a mid-term project, not a short term effort to get back on track. Cheers, Dan On Nov 16, 2015 10:54 AM, "xor" wrote: > On Monday, November 16, 2015 10:52:16 AM Ian Clarke wrote: > > I am pretty convinced that it would be a bad idea to allow Xor to > continue > > working if the project doesn't have sufficient funds. > > > > Aside from any potential legal problems, imagine what our pitch to donors > > becomes at that point - "Hey, donate money so that we can pay off our > > debts". Not exactly a compelling pitch :/ > > > > And meanwhile Xor is potentially getting himself into a difficult > financial > > situation. > > Argh, I had just messaged you that I'd like to postpone the final > discussion > of my offer "continue working with payment delayed as interest-free debt" > until Thursday :| > I need to figure out some real life stuff related to that. > > But well, my offer still is available though. > Freenet is more important to me than some temporary financial hassle. > > Thursday will just make me figure out how bad a "no" to my offer would be > for > me, which is why I'd prefer to not hear the decision until then. > > But, as said elsewhere, even if my offer is not accepted, I will: > 1) *not* seek a different job for now (= a year at least probably) and use > my > free time to resolve the major real life house cleanup/selling for my mom. > 2) stay available to resume my job once we have funding - my mom for sure > would accept me to reduce my efforts for her at any time. > 3) voluntarily continue replying on IRC / the mailing lists. > 4) voluntarily at least provide very basic maintenance for Web of Trust / > Freetalk to prevent user frustration. So please keep bug reports directed > at > me :) > > Nevertheless, please do notice that I cannot "officially" provide > volunteering > anymore due to my life situation. I am only offering this to keep the > project > alive by dealing with urgent stuff. > There is years work of worth at my mom's to be done, and if I do invest my > spare motivation for volunteering, it should be for her first (yes, she'll > pay me food, but that's about it :). So please just keep on mind that it > would > be a benefit if I could return to paid work ASAP, as earning money is > something I could justify to have a similarly significant priority. > I'll try to do my part in ensuring resuming of my job by helping at the > fundraising efforts. > > > If we want > > Xor to keep working, we need a strategy for raising more money. I think > > this strategy will need to be to achieve specific goals that we lay out. > > I'd say we already have a strategy: > > 0a) Finish the fundraising bar on the website. Done already by the > volunteers! > Thanks again. > > 0b) Maybe deploy the next Freenet release so my work of the past 6 months > is > available to the users actually. Would be polite to provide the result of > the > previous money to the users before asking for more money. The code is > finished > from my side, it is just waiting for a fred release to be bundled with. > Steve > needs to decide whether this can happen soon, or will take too long. If it > takes to long, we can ignore this step. > > 1) Put a news article on website titled "We've run out of money". Notice: I > suggested the prerequisite of first writing a huge list of news sites to > submit it to. We need to do this *first* before putting the article up > because: "News" contains "new". If it takes us too long to submit the > article, > it will be old, and thus news sites will ignore it. So we need to figure > out > who to send it to first. > > 2) Submit the article to many news sites. > > 3) Ask those entities directly for funds: > https://wiki.freenetproject.org/Fundraising > > I will try to help with all of the above, if not do them myself. But to be > honest I would be happy if I don't have to do it alone: I'm still a > programmer, not a marketing guy, so my social skills are limited. > Also, there are potentially thousands of entities who could be interested > in > funding us, thanks to the NSA scandal. Probably too much work for one > person > to talk to them all. > > > Perhaps we could explore a KickStarter - but that would only work if it > is > > to achieve something big and externally very visibl
Re: [freenet-dev] Bank account status
On Monday, November 16, 2015 10:52:16 AM Ian Clarke wrote: > I am pretty convinced that it would be a bad idea to allow Xor to continue > working if the project doesn't have sufficient funds. > > Aside from any potential legal problems, imagine what our pitch to donors > becomes at that point - "Hey, donate money so that we can pay off our > debts". Not exactly a compelling pitch :/ > > And meanwhile Xor is potentially getting himself into a difficult financial > situation. Argh, I had just messaged you that I'd like to postpone the final discussion of my offer "continue working with payment delayed as interest-free debt" until Thursday :| I need to figure out some real life stuff related to that. But well, my offer still is available though. Freenet is more important to me than some temporary financial hassle. Thursday will just make me figure out how bad a "no" to my offer would be for me, which is why I'd prefer to not hear the decision until then. But, as said elsewhere, even if my offer is not accepted, I will: 1) *not* seek a different job for now (= a year at least probably) and use my free time to resolve the major real life house cleanup/selling for my mom. 2) stay available to resume my job once we have funding - my mom for sure would accept me to reduce my efforts for her at any time. 3) voluntarily continue replying on IRC / the mailing lists. 4) voluntarily at least provide very basic maintenance for Web of Trust / Freetalk to prevent user frustration. So please keep bug reports directed at me :) Nevertheless, please do notice that I cannot "officially" provide volunteering anymore due to my life situation. I am only offering this to keep the project alive by dealing with urgent stuff. There is years work of worth at my mom's to be done, and if I do invest my spare motivation for volunteering, it should be for her first (yes, she'll pay me food, but that's about it :). So please just keep on mind that it would be a benefit if I could return to paid work ASAP, as earning money is something I could justify to have a similarly significant priority. I'll try to do my part in ensuring resuming of my job by helping at the fundraising efforts. > If we want > Xor to keep working, we need a strategy for raising more money. I think > this strategy will need to be to achieve specific goals that we lay out. I'd say we already have a strategy: 0a) Finish the fundraising bar on the website. Done already by the volunteers! Thanks again. 0b) Maybe deploy the next Freenet release so my work of the past 6 months is available to the users actually. Would be polite to provide the result of the previous money to the users before asking for more money. The code is finished from my side, it is just waiting for a fred release to be bundled with. Steve needs to decide whether this can happen soon, or will take too long. If it takes to long, we can ignore this step. 1) Put a news article on website titled "We've run out of money". Notice: I suggested the prerequisite of first writing a huge list of news sites to submit it to. We need to do this *first* before putting the article up because: "News" contains "new". If it takes us too long to submit the article, it will be old, and thus news sites will ignore it. So we need to figure out who to send it to first. 2) Submit the article to many news sites. 3) Ask those entities directly for funds: https://wiki.freenetproject.org/Fundraising I will try to help with all of the above, if not do them myself. But to be honest I would be happy if I don't have to do it alone: I'm still a programmer, not a marketing guy, so my social skills are limited. Also, there are potentially thousands of entities who could be interested in funding us, thanks to the NSA scandal. Probably too much work for one person to talk to them all. > Perhaps we could explore a KickStarter - but that would only work if it is > to achieve something big and externally very visible (such as rebuilding > FProxy using a modern JavaScript framework like Bootstrap/React and > modernizing the installers). I'm fine with KickStarter, and fine with it's requirement of setting specific goals. Albeit I would do KickStarter as a last resort: The requirement of specific goals is too much of a burden if volunteers are also involved. We don't know whether suddenly a volunteer appears and provides a whole new bunch of code. That code then might lack very small changes to be ready for deployment, so it might be good if I did the changes so we could get the code out. But that would violate the KickStarter promise of me only working on the specific KickStarter goals. Also, it is very difficult to judge complexity of software development, i.e. whether something will take 6 months or 2 years. I don't know whether KickStarter requires us to specify a date of delivery though. So KickStarter is OK, but as a last resort. However, I think the specific goals you suggested are pro
[freenet-dev] Bank account status
All, I've paid Xor's latest invoice, there is just $53.42 remaining in the project bank account. If someone could make the appropriate update to the website, I'd appreciate it. There is $1515.77 in Paypal, which I will now xfer to the bank account. I am pretty convinced that it would be a bad idea to allow Xor to continue working if the project doesn't have sufficient funds. Aside from any potential legal problems, imagine what our pitch to donors becomes at that point - "Hey, donate money so that we can pay off our debts". Not exactly a compelling pitch :/ And meanwhile Xor is potentially getting himself into a difficult financial situation. I believe that it would be irresponsible to go down that path. If we want Xor to keep working, we need a strategy for raising more money. I think this strategy will need to be to achieve specific goals that we lay out. Perhaps we could explore a KickStarter - but that would only work if it is to achieve something big and externally very visible (such as rebuilding FProxy using a modern JavaScript framework like Bootstrap/React and modernizing the installers). Thoughts? Ian. -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
