date:20110101

besides email people want a calendar as well as a to do list as well 
functionality wise, which Thunderbird seems to lack.


On 1/1/11 8:36 PM, Lee Hyde wrote:

On 01/01/11 19:20, Craig A. Eddy wrote:

So, what am I saying?  You don't NEED to add something useless like
Outlook or Evolution to LO.  You just have to allow Thunderbird to
connect to it, and people can make their own choice as to whether they
want all the other bells and whistles.  Therefore, no increase in size
due to bundling but the advantage that those that WANT the extras can
have them without difficulty

I agree, an integration add-on for Thunderbird (and any other e-mail
clients or contact managers with an add-on architecture) would be a far
better use of resources. Simply making contacts available to LibreOffice
would do wonders for mail-merge luck functionality (for the life of me I
can't think of any other functionalities one would require of an outlook
clone).




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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc

Jaime i only said Thunderbird cuz that's the client i use. there are 
tons of others.


Todd i totally agree a standard needs to be reached. like there is the 
ODF format a standardized dictionary format would be a great idea.


On 1/2/11 3:54 AM, todd rme wrote:

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Jaime R. Garza  wrote:

But why only for Thunderbird?

Why not make an open container (or just modularize the existing one with a
well defined interface) to will allow any application to use the resources
(e.g. dictionaries) and have full integration with all LO resources?

Isn't this what freedesktop.org standards are for?  A standard for
spell checking libraries (I mean the library of words, not the
software library) shared across all open-source programs would be very
useful.  Such a thing has already been proposed:

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/desktop-language-checking-spec

So rather than trying to get other groups to write wrappers to
integrate with libo's own spelling dictionary, I think it would be
much better if there was a single, standard dictionary format that all
open-source programs shared.  Any program that implements the standard
will automatically get support for the same dictionaries.  This avoids
each program needing to write compatibility layers for every other
program.

So I think putting some effort into getting this standard ironed out
would be very beneficial to a lot of projects.




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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc

2011-01-01 Thread todd rme

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Jaime R. Garza  wrote:
> But why only for Thunderbird?
>
> Why not make an open container (or just modularize the existing one with a
> well defined interface) to will allow any application to use the resources
> (e.g. dictionaries) and have full integration with all LO resources?

Isn't this what freedesktop.org standards are for?  A standard for
spell checking libraries (I mean the library of words, not the
software library) shared across all open-source programs would be very
useful.  Such a thing has already been proposed:

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/desktop-language-checking-spec

So rather than trying to get other groups to write wrappers to
integrate with libo's own spelling dictionary, I think it would be
much better if there was a single, standard dictionary format that all
open-source programs shared.  Any program that implements the standard
will automatically get support for the same dictionaries.  This avoids
each program needing to write compatibility layers for every other
program.

So I think putting some effort into getting this standard ironed out
would be very beneficial to a lot of projects.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Happy New Year from Arizona

2011-01-01 Thread drew

Happy New Year from Cumberland, MD and a video card to go along with my
Best wishes for a wonderful new year:

http://youtube.com/libreofficevols

or a HD Theora file of the video can be downloaded here

http://oucv.org/libreoffice/happy_new_year_LibreOffice.ogv.tar.gz

Happy New Year

Drew



On Sat, 2011-01-01 at 17:07 +, Zaphod Feeblejocks wrote:
> HNY from Northern Ireland
> 
> On 1 Jan 2011 at 2:38, Timothy Mark Brennan, Jr. wrote:
> 
> > Happy New Year from Brazil
> > 
> > 2011/1/1 Prabath Galagamage :
> > > Happy New Year from Sri Lanka
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 3:01 PM, Craig A. Eddy  wrote:
> > >
> > >> Happy New Year from "The Valley of the Sun" in Arizona.  Although it
> > >> tried to be "The Valley of the Snow" with this last storm.
> > >>
> > >> Despite strange weather patterns, here's wishing all of you a BETTER new
> > >> year.
> > >>
> > >> Craig A. Eddy
> > >> Tyche
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
> > >> discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
> > >> Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> > >> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Prabath Galagamage
> > > http://textlk.blogspot.com/
> > > http://agniezine.wordpress.com/
> > > http://www.ejsa.info
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > 
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> 
> 



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Matthew Copple

I disagree. LibreOffice isn't being developed as a political tool. It
is supposed to be useful in the modern office. Many of us have clients
and co-workers who use proprietary office formats, and we need to be
able to communicate with those folks. If I get an RFP in Office 10
format, I have to be able to read it and respond to it. If I have to
buy Office 10 to do it, then what reason have I to use LibreOffice (or
any free suite) in the first place?

Matthew Copple
mcop...@kcopensource.org

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Larry Gusaas  wrote:
> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
> format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
> do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.
>
> See the following:
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>
> Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
> LibreOffice.
>
>
> --
> _
>
>
>     Larry I. Gusaas
>
> *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan   Canada
> Website:   http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> theirs." - Edgard Varese *
>
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format


On 01/01/2011 11:29 PM, Barbara Duprey wrote:


Several of the comments here suggest a middle road, allowing the save
but with a message clarifying the limitations of the format (and perhaps
recommending use of the XP formats if interoperating with an MS-only
shop; their ODF support is not truly interoperable at a reasonable
level, the older formats come closer). That seems reasonable, at least
for editing documents that are received in these formats -- I'm not
convinced it should be allowed for new work, though. At the least, the
SaveAs dialog should label the format using the word Transitional. It
probably makes sense to start working towards OOXML "Strict" export as
soon as that is a reasonably stationary target, though. Wouldn't it be
great if LibO were the first implementation compliant with the ISO
standard? And if the other FOSS implementations also headed there, we
could beat MS at their own game!


Standards support is a thorny field. The reality is that no one supports 
a standard by default, but only with a specific choice in configuration 
(including LibreOffice with ODF, as 1.2 is not yet the standard format 
and 1.2 Extended is not going to be a standard).


Supporting OOXML Strict today would make LO not compatible with MS 
Office, and users do want interoperability and not just standard compliance.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Craig A. Eddy

Barbara,

First, ODF IS the ISO standard - honestly made so without the dirty
tricks that MS used to stuff the committee and force it to approve
something that wasn't ready to be used by anyone.

Second, MS refuses to support any ODF except the one that is actually an
ISO standard.  That makes their version of ODF suspect as to its actual
compatibility.

I don't suggest using the same tactics on MS as it is using on Open
Source Software.  Doing to others as they do to you is NOT a recommended
tactic for honest people or organizations (though it's too often been
used, in my arrogant opinion [There AIN'T no such thing as a humble
opinion]).

By being able to read .doc and .docx formats LO demonstrates it's
willingness to at least reach out to MS and its customers.  Therefore,
LO ends up being the good guy.

Craig
Tyche

On 01/01/2011 03:29 PM, Barbara Duprey wrote:
> On 1/1/2011 11:07 AM, Zaphod Feeblejocks wrote:
>> Hi Sveinn,
>>
>>> Sure, but how about conservation and readability by future generations
>>> (when there's no more Microsoft knowledge around and nobody knows
>>> anymore how to decrypt all the nuances of.doc + .docx files) ?
>> Fair point.
>>
>> But: most users do not care.  Not exporting to Word will make it look
>> like LibO is faulty.
>>
>> I have to save in MSO formats to share work with others.  At work, we
>> have an MSO policy.
>> While I can use whatever I like on my desktop, I have to save
>> spreadsheets in MSO formats
>> because Excel 07 kills ODS formulae.  If I prepare a document as ODT,
>> the few Word 2003
>> dies-hards complain I am refusing to inter-operate.  I do still assign
>> student work to be
>> submitted as either .doc or .odt and mark students down for using
>> .docx (they failed to read
>> the instructions).  They are also marked down for not using proper
>> spacing and a serif font.
>>
>> I don't want to see the .docx format spread any further and advocate
>> using ODT as the
>> default.  However, not having the option to export as .doc and .docx
>> will cause users to
>> wonder if they want to promote LibO.
> 
> I don't think anybody is saying LibO should drop .doc export -- just not
> try to export to the OOXML "Transitional" formats. In theory, MS will go
> to OOXML "Strict" in the 2014 (or whenever) release, and that should by
> then be a truly open format, if the comments submitted to the standards
> committee are properly worked off. Meanwhile, exporting to the
> "Transitional" form for new documents is specifically deprecated in the
> ISO standard; doing that really plays into a possible MS strategy to
> continue to ignore the "Strict" version forever, maintaining the
> proprietary lock-in while claiming to be open.
> 
> Several of the comments here suggest a middle road, allowing the save
> but with a message clarifying the limitations of the format (and perhaps
> recommending use of the XP formats if interoperating with an MS-only
> shop; their ODF support is not truly interoperable at a reasonable
> level, the older formats come closer). That seems reasonable, at least
> for editing documents that are received in these formats -- I'm not
> convinced it should be allowed for new work, though. At the least, the
> SaveAs dialog should label the format using the word Transitional. It
> probably makes sense to start working towards OOXML "Strict" export as
> soon as that is a reasonably stationary target, though. Wouldn't it be
> great if LibO were the first implementation compliant with the ISO
> standard? And if the other FOSS implementations also headed there, we
> could beat MS at their own game!
> 
 It must be arrogant for them to send you a format you don't support.
 Also, if the Win 7 users don't know what format the documents are in,
 why does it matter if it's returned to them in a .doc format?
>>> Think you hit the nail on the head, pal.
>>> Those who ignore any notion of a file format, will do it both ways,
>>> always, anyways...
>>>
>> Office on-the-web only saves in docx.  Office 2013/4 will quite
>> possibly drop .doc export,
>> just as Word 6/95 export was dropped from Word 2003 - after a failed
>> attempt to drop it
>> from 2000.  MS can do this because they are the market leader.  To
>> fail to offer even
>> rudimentary docx export would damage LibO's market penetration.
>>
>> my thoughts anyway!
>>
>> zf
>>
>>
> 

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Barbara Duprey

On 1/1/2011 5:01 PM, James Wilde wrote:

On Dec 30, 2010, at 18:27 , Larry Gusaas wrote:

I will not support or use LibreOffice
until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format.
There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is
contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.

I've read a lot of points of view in this thread, and received a lot of
information. For example, I didn't know that the docx format was supposed to
be MS's open document format. I just thought it was the latest update to MSO
making everyone update to keep abreast. So much for my knowledge of MSO.

There was a huge battle over that; docx and its siblings are MS's "Office Open XML" (OOXML) formats,
rushed through the ISO standards process with enormous still-existing problems. The standard was
split into two parts -- the "Transitional" piece of the specification purports to document the
implementation used since Office 2007, and the worst issues are in that part.

As regards Larry's comment, I endorse it. Read is right, write is wrong.

Regarding the different pov's of posters about the advisability or not of
writing docx, sometimes you've just got to take a stand, no matter what. It's
a case for the marketing guys, not the developers.

//James

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Barbara Duprey

OOo and LibO already do read those formats -- it's only the capability to write them that's an
issue. The Go-OO version and its derivatives, and as a consequence now LibO, write them, and
objecting to that is what started this whole (enormous) thread. The standard as written already
deprecates the use of the Transitional "standard" for new documents; MS, and LibO etc., really
shouldn't do it. Do you have information that the "Strict" form will still include proprietary hooks?

On 1/1/2011 4:56 PM, Jaime R. Garza wrote:

Well, we need to be able to import those transitional OOXML (2007-2010)
formats. If we can save to them, is not really necessary, (since MS office
suites 2007& 2010 support MS-Office 2003 FF too), but is a nice to have
feature. The real ISO OOXML will be implemented by MS first on MS Office
2014. By them LibreOffice must be able to import and export that
format. They will depreciate the old format MS-Office FF when they finally
implement the ISO OOXML, which is not a complete open format since it still
has a lot of proprietary hooks, but at least the base is openly specified.

Even though I think it would be nice to be able to export to the
transitional formats too, I agree that it a pain in the a But that's how
MS is playing with the Open Standards and we have to win them in their own
game.

Cheers!

Jaime R. Garza

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 23:29, Barbara Duprey wrote:

I don't think anybody is saying LibO should drop .doc export -- just not
try to export to the OOXML "Transitional" formats. In theory, MS will go to
OOXML "Strict" in the 2014 (or whenever) release, and that should by then be
a truly open format, if the comments submitted to the standards committee
are properly worked off. Meanwhile, exporting to the "Transitional" form for
new documents is specifically deprecated in the ISO standard; doing that
really plays into a possible MS strategy to continue to ignore the "Strict"
version forever, maintaining the proprietary lock-in while claiming to be
open.

Several of the comments here suggest a middle road, allowing the save but
with a message clarifying the limitations of the format (and perhaps
recommending use of the XP formats if interoperating with an MS-only shop;
their ODF support is not truly interoperable at a reasonable level, the
older formats come closer). That seems reasonable, at least for editing
documents that are received in these formats -- I'm not convinced it should
be allowed for new work, though. At the least, the SaveAs dialog should
label the format using the word Transitional. It probably makes sense to
start working towards OOXML "Strict" export as soon as that is a reasonably
stationary target, though. Wouldn't it be great if LibO were the first
implementation compliant with the ISO standard? And if the other FOSS
implementations also headed there, we could beat MS at their own game!

It must be arrogant for them to send you a format you don't support.

Also, if the Win 7 users don't know what format the documents are in,
why does it matter if it's returned to them in a .doc format?

Think you hit the nail on the head, pal.
Those who ignore any notion of a file format, will do it both ways,
always, anyways...

Office on-the-web only saves in docx. Office 2013/4 will quite possibly

drop .doc export,
just as Word 6/95 export was dropped from Word 2003 - after a failed
attempt to drop it
from 2000. MS can do this because they are the market leader. To fail to
offer even
rudimentary docx export would damage LibO's market penetration.

my thoughts anyway!

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Thorsten Behrens

Larry Gusaas wrote:
> >They will instead see an 'office suite' that
> >doesn't support the formats they have and will go "Well thats USELESS" and
> >delete it from their system and install an office suite which DOES have
> >support,
> 
> MS Office still can read and write to .doc format. LibO ability to
> write to .doc format if necessary is sufficient for interchange with
> MS office users
> 
Nope, it's not. And the gap is widening. Also, nobody is gonna
write, and QA, a decent export filter for ooxml in 6 months, should
MS once axe binary support ...

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Wolf Halton

Yes. Take a stand for inclusivity. :-)
On Jan 1, 2011 6:02 PM, "James Wilde"  wrote:
>
> On Dec 30, 2010, at 18:27 , Larry Gusaas wrote:
>
>> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>> until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.
>>
> I've read a lot of points of view in this thread, and received a lot of
information. For example, I didn't know that the docx format was supposed to
be MS's open document format. I just thought it was the latest update to MSO
making everyone update to keep abreast. So much for my knowledge of MSO.
>
> As regards Larry's comment, I endorse it. Read is right, write is wrong.
>
> Regarding the different pov's of posters about the advisability or not of
writing docx, sometimes you've just got to take a stand, no matter what.
It's a case for the marketing guys, not the developers.
>
> //James
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread James Wilde


On Dec 30, 2010, at 18:27 , Larry Gusaas wrote:

> I will not support or use LibreOffice
> until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. 
> There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is 
> contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.
> 
I've read a lot of points of view in this thread, and received a lot of 
information.  For example, I didn't know that the docx format was supposed to 
be MS's open document format.  I just thought it was the latest update to MSO 
making everyone update to keep abreast.  So much for my knowledge of MSO.

As regards Larry's comment, I endorse it.  Read is right, write is wrong.

Regarding the different pov's of posters about the advisability or not of 
writing docx, sometimes you've just got to take a stand, no matter what.  It's 
a case for the marketing guys, not the developers.

//James
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

Well, we need to be able to import those transitional OOXML (2007-2010)
formats. If we can save to them, is not really necessary, (since MS office
suites 2007 & 2010 support MS-Office 2003 FF too), but is a nice to have
feature. The real ISO OOXML will be implemented by MS first on MS Office
2014. By them LibreOffice must be able to import and export that
format. They will depreciate the old format MS-Office FF when they finally
implement the ISO OOXML, which is not a complete open format since it still
has a lot of proprietary hooks, but at least the base is openly specified.

Even though I think it would be nice to be able to export to the
transitional formats too, I agree that it a pain in the a But that's how
MS is playing with the Open Standards and we have to win them in their own
game.

Cheers!

Jaime R. Garza

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 23:29, Barbara Duprey  wrote:
>
>
> I don't think anybody is saying LibO should drop .doc export -- just not
> try to export to the OOXML "Transitional" formats. In theory, MS will go to
> OOXML "Strict" in the 2014 (or whenever) release, and that should by then be
> a truly open format, if the comments submitted to the standards committee
> are properly worked off. Meanwhile, exporting to the "Transitional" form for
> new documents is specifically deprecated in the ISO standard; doing that
> really plays into a possible MS strategy to continue to ignore the "Strict"
> version forever, maintaining the proprietary lock-in while claiming to be
> open.
>
> Several of the comments here suggest a middle road, allowing the save but
> with a message clarifying the limitations of the format (and perhaps
> recommending use of the XP formats if interoperating with an MS-only shop;
> their ODF support is not truly interoperable at a reasonable level, the
> older formats come closer). That seems reasonable, at least for editing
> documents that are received in these formats -- I'm not convinced it should
> be allowed for new work, though. At the least, the SaveAs dialog should
> label the format using the word Transitional. It probably makes sense to
> start working towards OOXML "Strict" export as soon as that is a reasonably
> stationary target, though. Wouldn't it be great if LibO were the first
> implementation compliant with the ISO standard? And if the other FOSS
> implementations also headed there, we could beat MS at their own game!
>
>
>  It must be arrogant for them to send you a format you don't support.
 Also, if the Win 7 users don't know what format the documents are in,
 why does it matter if it's returned to them in a .doc format?

>>> Think you hit the nail on the head, pal.
>>> Those who ignore any notion of a file format, will do it both ways,
>>> always, anyways...
>>>
>>>  Office on-the-web only saves in docx.  Office 2013/4 will quite possibly
>> drop .doc export,
>> just as Word 6/95 export was dropped from Word 2003 - after a failed
>> attempt to drop it
>> from 2000.  MS can do this because they are the market leader.  To fail to
>> offer even
>> rudimentary docx export would damage LibO's market penetration.
>>
>> my thoughts anyway!
>>
>> zf
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Andy Brown


On Sat Jan 01 2011 10:27:02 GMT-0800 (PST)  Ian Lynch wrote:



Another consideration is that if we ignore docx until MS do drop .doc which
is long term inevitable, we could end  up playing catch up in order to get
filter that are good enough to be credible.  Better to start now and
incrementally improve them over time.



How can LibO or any OSS program expect to keep up with MS when they do 
not even follow "their" own standard?  All that anyone has to go on is 
the standard published by the ISO but MS does not even support it as 
published.  See 
http://www.adjb.net/post/Microsoft-Fails-the-Standards-Test.aspx as 
reference.




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Re: [tdf-discuss] Just make the damn thing work! (was Re: Dictionary Syncing)

2011-01-01 Thread Rene Engelhard

On Sat, Jan 01, 2011 at 05:07:38PM -, Zaphod Feeblejocks wrote:
> American English need an extension before it can use a British English 
> dictionary?  Why 
> can Thunderbird not share a dictionary with LibO.  What about Scribus? MSO 
> users are 
> used to a shared dictionary across apps.  

It can. OOo/LibO and  Thunderbird use *exactly* the same dictionary. That 
Windows is too unflexible
and doesn't have symlinks and whatever and Linux "packages" form here and there 
also duplicate them 
oesn't make it impossible.

Linux distros nowadys put them to /usr/share/hunspell and make OOo/LibO and the 
Mozilla
family look *there*.

Same for hyphenation patterns and thesauri.

Grüße/Regards,

René

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Just make the damn thing work! (was Re: Dictionary Syncing)


On 01/01/2011 06:07 PM, Zaphod Feeblejocks wrote:


Remember the users.


TDF was born to bring back the user at the center of the project. Users 
generate and manage documents.



Now that MS are giving away Office for free (on the web), or cheap (£40 to UK 
school
students - free to many University students).  Now that MS are buying up chunks 
of
commonly used apps (have you seen the advertising on Facebook and how it links 
with
Bing?).  Now that MS are managing a seamless experience for users, at 
reasonable costs...
it's time for FOSS to realise that free-to-use and free-as-in-speech are not 
the selling points
we think they are.


Freedom as a message is both powerful and difficult to convey. Our task 
is to make freedom a popular concept amongst office suite users.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Barbara Duprey

On 1/1/2011 11:07 AM, Zaphod Feeblejocks wrote:

Hi Sveinn,

Sure, but how about conservation and readability by future generations
(when there's no more Microsoft knowledge around and nobody knows
anymore how to decrypt all the nuances of.doc + .docx files) ?

Fair point.

But: most users do not care. Not exporting to Word will make it look like LibO
is faulty.

I have to save in MSO formats to share work with others. At work, we have an
MSO policy.
While I can use whatever I like on my desktop, I have to save spreadsheets in
MSO formats
because Excel 07 kills ODS formulae. If I prepare a document as ODT, the few
Word 2003
dies-hards complain I am refusing to inter-operate. I do still assign student
work to be
submitted as either .doc or .odt and mark students down for using .docx (they
failed to read
the instructions). They are also marked down for not using proper spacing and
a serif font.

I don't want to see the .docx format spread any further and advocate using ODT
as the
default. However, not having the option to export as .doc and .docx will cause
users to
wonder if they want to promote LibO.

I don't think anybody is saying LibO should drop .doc export -- just not try to export to the OOXML
"Transitional" formats. In theory, MS will go to OOXML "Strict" in the 2014 (or whenever) release,
and that should by then be a truly open format, if the comments submitted to the standards committee
are properly worked off. Meanwhile, exporting to the "Transitional" form for new documents is
specifically deprecated in the ISO standard; doing that really plays into a possible MS strategy to
continue to ignore the "Strict" version forever, maintaining the proprietary lock-in while claiming
to be open.

Several of the comments here suggest a middle road, allowing the save but with a message clarifying
the limitations of the format (and perhaps recommending use of the XP formats if interoperating with
an MS-only shop; their ODF support is not truly interoperable at a reasonable level, the older
formats come closer). That seems reasonable, at least for editing documents that are received in
these formats -- I'm not convinced it should be allowed for new work, though. At the least, the
SaveAs dialog should label the format using the word Transitional. It probably makes sense to start
working towards OOXML "Strict" export as soon as that is a reasonably stationary target, though.
Wouldn't it be great if LibO were the first implementation compliant with the ISO standard? And if
the other FOSS implementations also headed there, we could beat MS at their own game!

It must be arrogant for them to send you a format you don't support.
Also, if the Win 7 users don't know what format the documents are in,
why does it matter if it's returned to them in a .doc format?

Think you hit the nail on the head, pal.
Those who ignore any notion of a file format, will do it both ways,
always, anyways...

Office on-the-web only saves in docx. Office 2013/4 will quite possibly drop
.doc export,
just as Word 6/95 export was dropped from Word 2003 - after a failed attempt to
drop it
from 2000. MS can do this because they are the market leader. To fail to
offer even
rudimentary docx export would damage LibO's market penetration.

my thoughts anyway!

Re: [tdf-discuss] docx export


On 01/01/2011 08:21 PM, Zaphod Feeblejocks wrote:


In the selection for which file-type to use, would the following phrasing be 
useful.  Docx is
there - just not encouraged!  If my understanding is correct, docx is an xml 
representation of
the binary format, so saying .doc is a format for Word 97-2010 is correct.


The situation is more complex. There are at least 3 different DOCX 
versions: 2007 transitional, 2010 transitional and strict (which will 
arrive in 2013 or later). Users do not have the slightest idea of the 
complexities associated with standard formats.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format


On 01/01/2011 07:52 PM, Carl Symons wrote:


I clicked on the "list of events" link on
http://www.documentfoundation.org/. There are several events listed
for North America. Would TDF consider being at LinuxFest Northwest in
Bellingham, 4/30&  5/1? There will be an official call for papers in
early January, but people can register at www.linuxfestnorthwest.org.
LFNW is a true open source expo, free admission, completely run by
volunteers...one of the longest running Fests in the US.


I think you should discuss this on the US Marketing list, who is copied 
on this answer.



If there are LibOers in the Pacific NW, please contact me off-list if
you'd like to help put together a LibreOffice track. We are looking
for presentations for people who are new to FOSS.


Please use the US Marketing list instead of private emails. We are 
trying to grow a US community and a marketing list is far better than 
any other tool.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc


On 01/01/2011 09:08 PM, Lee Hyde wrote:


For the record I'm not in favour of LibO wasting resources on developing
their own PIM or e-mail client. There are plenty of alternatives out
there, and LibO should work on integration with them (I assume such
would represent a lot less work compared with a brand new or forked PIM).


We have a very good and active group of developers, who are taking care 
of this kind of issues.


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread NoOp

On 01/01/2011 12:58 PM, Sveinn í Felli wrote:
> Þann lau  1.jan 2011 19:57, skrifaði NoOp:
>> On 12/31/2010 02:18 AM, Sveinn í Felli wrote:
>>> But I think that in a corporate context, a batch program for converting
>>> .doc and .docx to ODF would get some support and would/could ease the
>>> conversion. After all those years, there's a pile of .docs sitting on
>>> most PCs in this world. And having all the files in a same/similar
>>> format is an issue for many I've heard from.
>>>
>>
>> You might try:
>> 
>> [bit dated, but probably still works]
>>
>> Also see:
>> http://katana.oooninja.com/w/odf-converter-integrator
>> 
>>
> 
> Thanks, have not revisited this for a while.
> 
> Seems these convert one file at a time.
> 
> I'm more thinking about a program that could be run (maybe on first run 
> of LibO ?) offering to convert all MSO files to their ODF equivalents, 
> under same name, parsing all subfolders of a tree. Custom renaming, file 
> exclusions and other stuff would be nice to have, but not mandatory.
...
Perhaps a modification of 'File|Wizards|Document Converter/Microsoft
Office' to include OOXML is what you are looking for? Might be worth
filing a 'Wishlist' bug on bugzilla...

Note: for all I know, the wizard may already be updated... I've not used
it in a very long time & would need to find a docx to test.



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc

My point is that if they are stand alone,they should still be able to share
seamlessly the resources, like the dictionary, spell check, even PDF export,
I'm not sure if Thunderbird uses one. But the important thing is to give the
feeling that they work integrated. Not only to the E-Mail client, but to the
Calendar and contacts. Thinking more into the Social, to be able to share
documents made from LO directly after making them from the same application,
having a button called SHARE, which will let the users select from the
contacts and then automatically send the share invitation to the E-Mail of
the selected contact. In general to give the effect that Google Docs and
GMail give, that they work together! And that brings me again to the point
of the Cloud Office Suite, if the DocumentFoundation is not thinking on
developing a HTML5 based LibreOffice, at least there should be a tied
integration with something like ULTEO (www.ulteo.com) that allows office
directly into the browser without any installation necessary.

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 21:08, Lee Hyde  wrote:

> On 01/01/11 19:42, Jaime R. Garza wrote:
> > But why only for Thunderbird?
> >
> > Why not make an open container (or just modularize the existing one with
> a
> > well defined interface) to will allow any application to use the
> resources
> > (e.g. dictionaries) and have full integration with all LO resources?
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the main bone of contention with
> regards to integrating a third-party e-mail client the flow of data
> *from* the client, *to* the office suite. If that is the case, surely
> there is a *need* develop an add-on for each e-mail client.
>
> I can't imagine there being a need to share resources with an e-mail
> client (certainly Thunderbird) as they (as stand-alone products) strive
> to be feature complete. That being said don't both Thunderbird and LibO
> use hunspell? If so, would it not already be a simple matter to share
> dictionaries? For example a system-wide hunspell dictionary.
>
> For the record I'm not in favour of LibO wasting resources on developing
> their own PIM or e-mail client. There are plenty of alternatives out
> there, and LibO should work on integration with them (I assume such
> would represent a lot less work compared with a brand new or forked PIM).
>
> Regards,
>
> Lee Hyde.
> --
> "We Americans claim to be a peace-loving people. We hate bloodshed; we
> are opposed to violence. Yet we go into spasms of joy over the
> possibility of projecting dynamite bombs from flying machines upon
> helpless citizens. We are ready to hang, electrocute, or lynch anyone,
> who, from economic necessity, will risk his own life in the attempt upon
> that of some industrial magnate. Yet our hearts swell with pride at the
> thought that America is becoming the most powerful nation on earth, and
> that she will eventually plant her iron foot on the necks of all other
> nations. Such is the logic of patriotism."
>
>-- Emma Goldman, What is Patriotism? (1908)
>
>

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Gallery -- toggle off/on

2011-01-01 Thread Marc Paré


Le 2010-12-31 06:32, Christoph Noack a écrit :

Hi Marc,

some additional remarks to those by Regina (Thanks!). The reason for not
having a "x"-button to close some of the window is, that the source code
and the interaction concepts are very old. Just look at the "selection"
decoration - looks quite dated ... In comparison, the task panes in
Impress (e.g. Slide Format Selection) are much more up to date and thus
more flexible.

But some improvements concerning task panes / windows / ... are in
progress at Oracle. But it is hard to align the behavior of all of them.

You may have noticed (or your students) that the functions to toggle the
visibility of those windows is spread among different menus (problem:
visibility issue vs. functionality issue), that they behave different
(missing 'x', docking/undocking), that they look different (old vs. new
decorators), that they are used differently (task panes for Impress
only).

Let's sum it up that way - there is plenty to do for both the devs and
the UX design team ;-)

Cheers,
Christoph


Am Montag, den 27.12.2010, 09:30 -0500 schrieb Marc Paré:

Yes you are right. One looses sight that it is a docked window when
it
appears as a tool window as well. If you click through all of the
tools,
Gallery is the only tool where there is no exit button. Maybe it
should
then be treated in the same way?





Thanks. Let's hope that the UX design picks up on this.

Coincidentally, yesterday, I was asked by a music director how to turn 
off the gallery pane. She had turned it on by mistake and could not 
figure how to close it -- not enough cliparts anyway. Bonus for her is 
that I added the gallery extension with more cliparts. She left quite 
happily with the cliparts and knowledge of toggling gallery on/off. :-)


Happy New Year!

Marc


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Sveinn í Felli


Þann lau  1.jan 2011 19:57, skrifaði NoOp:

On 12/31/2010 02:18 AM, Sveinn í Felli wrote:

But I think that in a corporate context, a batch program for converting
.doc and .docx to ODF would get some support and would/could ease the
conversion. After all those years, there's a pile of .docs sitting on
most PCs in this world. And having all the files in a same/similar
format is an issue for many I've heard from.



You might try:

[bit dated, but probably still works]

Also see:
http://katana.oooninja.com/w/odf-converter-integrator




Thanks, have not revisited this for a while.

Seems these convert one file at a time.

I'm more thinking about a program that could be run (maybe on first run 
of LibO ?) offering to convert all MSO files to their ODF equivalents, 
under same name, parsing all subfolders of a tree. Custom renaming, file 
exclusions and other stuff would be nice to have, but not mandatory.


I'm more interested in something like the mso2ooo:


The author even says that integration into OOo/LibO should be possible 
(for an OOoBasic-nerd):
"If someone could make the equivalent of mso2ooo.py in OpenOffice.org 
Basic, it would be just one step. Or integrate mso2ooo.py in mso2ooo.odt 
(OpenOffice.org documents can contain Python scripts, it’s just I can’t 
do it). This also solves the problem of Python in Windows."


Best,

Sveinn

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Ian Lynch

>
>
> Office on-the-web only saves in docx.  Office 2013/4 will quite possibly
> drop .doc export,
> just as Word 6/95 export was dropped from Word 2003 - after a failed
> attempt to drop it
> from 2000.  MS can do this because they are the market leader.  To fail to
> offer even
> rudimentary docx export would damage LibO's market penetration.
>
> my thoughts anyway


Another consideration is that if we ignore docx until MS do drop .doc which
is long term inevitable, we could end  up playing catch up in order to get
filter that are good enough to be credible.  Better to start now and
incrementally improve them over time.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc

2011-01-01 Thread Craig A. Eddy

VERY GOOD!  No, I didn't really mean to restrict it to Thunderbird.
It's just what I'm most familiar with.  Certainly, if there are other
email readers that have capabilities that can be linked into LO those
links should be explored.

Craig
Tyche

On 01/01/2011 12:42 PM, Jaime R. Garza wrote:
> But why only for Thunderbird?
> 
> Why not make an open container (or just modularize the existing one with a
> well defined interface) to will allow any application to use the resources
> (e.g. dictionaries) and have full integration with all LO resources?
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 20:36, Lee Hyde  wrote:
> 
>> On 01/01/11 19:20, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
>>> So, what am I saying?  You don't NEED to add something useless like
>>> Outlook or Evolution to LO.  You just have to allow Thunderbird to
>>> connect to it, and people can make their own choice as to whether they
>>> want all the other bells and whistles.  Therefore, no increase in size
>>> due to bundling but the advantage that those that WANT the extras can
>>> have them without difficulty
>>
>> I agree, an integration add-on for Thunderbird (and any other e-mail
>> clients or contact managers with an add-on architecture) would be a far
>> better use of resources. Simply making contacts available to LibreOffice
>> would do wonders for mail-merge luck functionality (for the life of me I
>> can't think of any other functionalities one would require of an outlook
>> clone).
>>
>> --
>> "The division of mankind threatens it with destruction. Only universal
>> cooperation under conditions of intellectual freedom and the lofty moral
>> ideals of socialism and labor, accompanied by the elimination of
>> dogmatism and pressure of the concealed interests of ruling classes,
>> will preserve civilization."
>>
>>-- Andrei Sakharov, The New York Times (July 22nd, 1968)
>>
>>
>> --
>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
>> discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
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>>
>>
> 

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc

On 01/01/11 19:42, Jaime R. Garza wrote:
> But why only for Thunderbird?
> 
> Why not make an open container (or just modularize the existing one with a
> well defined interface) to will allow any application to use the resources
> (e.g. dictionaries) and have full integration with all LO resources?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the main bone of contention with
regards to integrating a third-party e-mail client the flow of data
*from* the client, *to* the office suite. If that is the case, surely
there is a *need* develop an add-on for each e-mail client.

I can't imagine there being a need to share resources with an e-mail
client (certainly Thunderbird) as they (as stand-alone products) strive
to be feature complete. That being said don't both Thunderbird and LibO
use hunspell? If so, would it not already be a simple matter to share
dictionaries? For example a system-wide hunspell dictionary.

For the record I'm not in favour of LibO wasting resources on developing
their own PIM or e-mail client. There are plenty of alternatives out
there, and LibO should work on integration with them (I assume such
would represent a lot less work compared with a brand new or forked PIM).

Regards,

Lee Hyde.
-- 
"We Americans claim to be a peace-loving people. We hate bloodshed; we
are opposed to violence. Yet we go into spasms of joy over the
possibility of projecting dynamite bombs from flying machines upon
helpless citizens. We are ready to hang, electrocute, or lynch anyone,
who, from economic necessity, will risk his own life in the attempt upon
that of some industrial magnate. Yet our hearts swell with pride at the
thought that America is becoming the most powerful nation on earth, and
that she will eventually plant her iron foot on the necks of all other
nations. Such is the logic of patriotism."

-- Emma Goldman, What is Patriotism? (1908)

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[tdf-discuss] download options

OOo has for a long time given an option of downloading the full OOo package 
with or 
without JRE.

Ubuntu gives the option of full package, or only key components (Writer, Calc, 
etc).

To avoid bloat, what about a joint-hosted TDF/Moz/others site, giving an option 
of:

>From TDF:
- Writer
- Calc
- etc

>From Moz:
- Tbird
- Lightening

>From Scribus
- Scribus

Maybe an option for a shared dictionary tool.

Defaults could be Writer, Calc, Impress, Tbird, Lightening, Dictionary.  This 
could even 
interrogate the user's current installation to suggest options to download.

Once the download is under way, as well as "Thank you" an advert for other OS 
productivity 
software could be included - e.g. the GIMP, or Pinta, or a mention of 
web-tools, such as 
Google Docs.

zf

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread NoOp

On 12/31/2010 02:18 AM, Sveinn í Felli wrote:
> But I think that in a corporate context, a batch program for converting 
> .doc and .docx to ODF would get some support and would/could ease the 
> conversion. After all those years, there's a pile of .docs sitting on 
> most PCs in this world. And having all the files in a same/similar 
> format is an issue for many I've heard from.
> 

You might try:

[bit dated, but probably still works]

Also see:
http://katana.oooninja.com/w/odf-converter-integrator




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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc

But why only for Thunderbird?

Why not make an open container (or just modularize the existing one with a
well defined interface) to will allow any application to use the resources
(e.g. dictionaries) and have full integration with all LO resources?


On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 20:36, Lee Hyde  wrote:

> On 01/01/11 19:20, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
> > So, what am I saying?  You don't NEED to add something useless like
> > Outlook or Evolution to LO.  You just have to allow Thunderbird to
> > connect to it, and people can make their own choice as to whether they
> > want all the other bells and whistles.  Therefore, no increase in size
> > due to bundling but the advantage that those that WANT the extras can
> > have them without difficulty
>
> I agree, an integration add-on for Thunderbird (and any other e-mail
> clients or contact managers with an add-on architecture) would be a far
> better use of resources. Simply making contacts available to LibreOffice
> would do wonders for mail-merge luck functionality (for the life of me I
> can't think of any other functionalities one would require of an outlook
> clone).
>
> --
> "The division of mankind threatens it with destruction. Only universal
> cooperation under conditions of intellectual freedom and the lofty moral
> ideals of socialism and labor, accompanied by the elimination of
> dogmatism and pressure of the concealed interests of ruling classes,
> will preserve civilization."
>
>-- Andrei Sakharov, The New York Times (July 22nd, 1968)
>
>
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> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc

On 01/01/11 19:20, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
> So, what am I saying?  You don't NEED to add something useless like
> Outlook or Evolution to LO.  You just have to allow Thunderbird to
> connect to it, and people can make their own choice as to whether they
> want all the other bells and whistles.  Therefore, no increase in size
> due to bundling but the advantage that those that WANT the extras can
> have them without difficulty

I agree, an integration add-on for Thunderbird (and any other e-mail
clients or contact managers with an add-on architecture) would be a far
better use of resources. Simply making contacts available to LibreOffice
would do wonders for mail-merge luck functionality (for the life of me I
can't think of any other functionalities one would require of an outlook
clone).

-- 
"The division of mankind threatens it with destruction. Only universal
cooperation under conditions of intellectual freedom and the lofty moral
ideals of socialism and labor, accompanied by the elimination of
dogmatism and pressure of the concealed interests of ruling classes,
will preserve civilization."

-- Andrei Sakharov, The New York Times (July 22nd, 1968)


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Re: [tdf-discuss] docx export

2011-01-01 Thread Wolf Halton

That looks like a good message. A direct "save this as a .doc now" button
inside the dialog might be helpful for users as well.

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[tdf-discuss] docx export

Just a thought

Might the following message be useful the first time a user tries to save in 
docx.

--
Caution: this format is only fully supported by MS Word since 2007.  Saving in 
this format 
may not be suitable if you wish to share data with users of older versions of 
Word or users 
of other file formats.  If you are sharing with users of older versions of 
Word, the .doc format 
is recommended.

Please select which format to save as:
[ ] DOCX[ ]DOC

[ ]Remember my choice and don't ask me this question again when DOCX is 
selected.
--

In the selection for which file-type to use, would the following phrasing be 
useful.  Docx is 
there - just not encouraged!  If my understanding is correct, docx is an xml 
representation of 
the binary format, so saying .doc is a format for Word 97-2010 is correct.

MS Word 97-2010 (.doc)
MS Word 95 (.doc)
MS Word 6 (.doc)
MS Word 2007-10 (.docx)

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc

2011-01-01 Thread Craig A. Eddy

I remember my days of working for an outfit that used Outlook and MS
products.  I looked into Outlook for myself.  I was not amused.

Years later I turned to Linux, and the particular distribution I chose
installed Evolution by default.  I looked into it.  I was not amused.
So I tried uninstalling it.  Come to find out it had it's hooks into so
much of the distribution that the distribution would have collapsed if I
had uninstalled it.  So I disabled it, instead.

I used Thunderbird.  And, shortly after, learned that there was a
plug-in called Lightning that took care of the problem of a calendar.
Hence Evolution (better named devolution) was unnecessary.  Not only
that, but the calendar in Thunderbird (Lightning) could be hooked up to
the Google calendar, making it share-able (as an editor for the Ubuntu
Weekly Newsletter that was a bonus, since the events ended up being
logged on that calendar, and I could transfer them to the newsletter
without too much difficulty).

So, what am I saying?  You don't NEED to add something useless like
Outlook or Evolution to LO.  You just have to allow Thunderbird to
connect to it, and people can make their own choice as to whether they
want all the other bells and whistles.  Therefore, no increase in size
due to bundling but the advantage that those that WANT the extras can
have them without difficulty

Craig
Tyche

On 01/01/2011 11:43 AM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> Whats really held OOo and will hold LO back is the lack of an equivalent
> program such as outlook.
> 
> There are one of three ways it can be done.
> 
> 1) fork something like evolution which has all that done and integrate it
> into the LO suite
> 
> 2) or install software that already exists in the open source arena.
> 
> the problem with 2 is that it will greatly increase the download size, which
> would pose issues for people with slow bandwidth.
> 
> On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 6:07 PM, Cia Watson  wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 12:16:06 -
>> Zaphod Feeblejocks  wrote:
>>
> The Go-oo homepage also says "Going forward, the Go-oo project
> will be discontinued in favor of LibreOffice." Does that mean
> that LibreOffice is driven by Novell too?
>>
>>> Ways to resolve this include:
>>> - Open (and easy to find) statistics on the numbers of current
>>> developers on LibO and their background.
>>> - More clear input from Google, etc., towards easy integration with
>>> Google Docs (in the way that the MSO integration with the web-based
>>> version of MSO will become something users expect).
>>> - Joint-branding with Thunderbird, Scribus, etc. There have been many
>>> posts on the OOo lists over the years asking "do you do a calendar?"
>>> or "Do you have a Publisher replacement".  No, we don't - but clearly
>>> promoting other open source projects and working with them to make
>>> life easy for people coming away from MSO helps all people.
>>
>> Since this looks a little like a wish-list, I thought I'd add mine. (Or
>> am I engaging in wishful thinking? :-) )
>>
>> I think it would be nice to be able to open AbiWord documents (.abw)
>> that render properly. LibO (and OO) Writer will open the file, but
>> there's a lot of coding visible, I'm guessing it's xml code.  I can
>> open odt files just fine in AbiWord (as well as doc and docx files)
>> and they render properly; but the reverse isn't true. Therefore, since I
>> have some documents already in abw format, I generally stick with
>> AbiWord for my few word-processing needs.
>>
>> Happy New Year to all!
>>
>> Cia W
>>
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>>
>>
> 
> 

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Dictionary Syncing

Also, as a slight aside, does anybody know whether or not Mozilla
Thunderbird and/or Firefox are also using hunspell? and if so whether or
not they are using the same dictionaries as OOo/LibO? I'd always assumed
that collation and distribution of the various dictionaries was
centrally managed by the hunspell people themselves, and thus one en-US
dictionary (say OOo/LibOs) was identical to another en-US dictionary
(say Thunderbirds).

-- 
"I foresee a universal information system (UIS), which will give
everyone access at any given moment to the contents of any book that has
ever been published or any magazine or any fact. The UIS will have
individual miniature-computer terminals, central control points for the
flood of information, and communication channels incorporating thousands
of artificial communications from satellites, cables, and laser lines.
Even the partial realization of the UIS will profoundly affect every
person, his leisure activities, and his intellectual and artistic
development. But the true historic role of the UIS will be to break down
the barriers to the exchange of information among countries and people."

-- Andrei Sakharov, Saturday Review/World (August 24th, 1984)


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread NoOp

On 12/31/2010 08:14 AM, Steven Shelton wrote:
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>  
> On 12/31/2010 10:03 AM, Kevin André wrote:
>> I would suggest the following instead. Support OOXML completely,
>> but when the user saves his/her document in a proprietary format
>> display a confirmation message which says something like: "You are
>> saving your file in a proprietary format. We cannot guarantee that
>> the file will still open correctly in another program. Please use
>> an open file format for saving your document if possible. Are you
>> still sure you wish to save in the current format?" And display a
>> checkbox below that can disable the message, or maybe add a note
>> "You can disable this message by going to Options->." and have
>> no checkbox at all. And the message would appear by default even
>> for the binary MS formats (.doc, .xls, .ppt, ...).
> 
> This is a much better idea. However, I should note that even ODF
> files--despite the hype--are not 100% on preserving formatting when
> moved from one application to another. I have my letterhead saved as
> ODF done in OOo, but when I open it in AbiWord the formatting is all
> over the place.
...
Mostly because:
http://www.abisource.com/wiki/OpenDocument
http://www.abisource.com/wiki/OpenDocument_support
Also see:
http://www.abisource.com/release-notes/2.8.0.phtml
[Improved OpenDocument Format (.odt) support]
and the OOXML statement following that is interesting:

Improved Office Open XML (.docx) support

As with OpenDocument Format support, we consider interoperability with
the Office Open XML (.docx) format popularized by Microsoft Word to be
very important. The Office Open XML import filter in AbiWord 2.8 has
seen great improvements as the result of funding through the Google
Summer of Code program. The import filter now supports all common
complex document features such as lists, tables, headers, footers and
images.



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc

2011-01-01 Thread Sebastian G.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Am 01.01.2011 19:43, schrieb Jonathan Aquilina:
> Whats really held OOo and will hold LO back is the lack of an equivalent
> program such as outlook.
> 
> There are one of three ways it can be done.
> 
> 1) fork something like evolution which has all that done and integrate it
> into the LO suite
> 
> 2) or install software that already exists in the open source arena.
> 
> the problem with 2 is that it will greatly increase the download size, which
> would pose issues for people with slow bandwidth.
> 

The third-party software could be downloaded if it's required. If it's
selected during installation it gets downloaded.

This solves two issues, the download size of the installer doesn't
increase and the software is up-to-date.

BTW: A fork (or something completely new) would increase the download
size, too.

Regards,
bastik

01 Jan 2011, 20:04 (+0100)

- -- 
Impurities make things work and sometimes unique.
Go Libre!
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (MingW32)
Comment: Download at http://www.gnupt.de

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Dictionary Syncing

On 01/01/11 18:46, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> My apologies for the mis understanding there Lee. I think the problem we
> would run into is 2 different schools of thought on how the same goal should
> be achieved.

Possibly, but then that is the nature of collaboration is it not? In any
case, both projects share something in common, and that is
crowd-sourcing. Thus both would presumably benefit from merging those
'crowds' together.

What I would suggest is pursuing my first idea as a starter (assuming
the wiktionary people are amenable at all to it)

>1) Define a HTML standard which would allow the scraping of wiktionary
>   articles for spellings, alternatives and localised spellings,
>   definitions, etymological information, synonyms and antonyms.

It could be as simple as adding custom tags (i.e. ,
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Carl Symons

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 3:30 AM, Olivier Hallot
 wrote:

>
>> The Go-oo homepage also says "Going forward, the Go-oo project will be
>> discontinued in favor of LibreOffice." Does that mean that LibreOffice
>> is driven by Novell too?
>>
>
> I wouldn't put in that simple words. Actually, LibreOffice is open to any
> developer, individual or company that whishes to contribute to our code and
> endeavour. On the TDF announcement we invited Oracle to join us and
> suggested them to offer the brand OpenOffice to TDF (later this was politely
> declined by Oracle).
>
> LibreOffice has many contributions of Novell engineers, as well as Oracle
> engineers too. But is is not an Novell product nor TDF is a Novell shop. The
> Next Decade Manifesto says a lot on our purpose and TDF is better described
> in this page:
> http://www.documentfoundation.org/
>
> Please help us not to make the same mistake as OpenOffice.org did.
>
> Kind regards
> --
> Olivier Hallot

Thank you, Olivier.

I clicked on the "list of events" link on
http://www.documentfoundation.org/. There are several events listed
for North America. Would TDF consider being at LinuxFest Northwest in
Bellingham, 4/30 & 5/1? There will be an official call for papers in
early January, but people can register at www.linuxfestnorthwest.org.
LFNW is a true open source expo, free admission, completely run by
volunteers...one of the longest running Fests in the US.

If there are LibOers in the Pacific NW, please contact me off-list if
you'd like to help put together a LibreOffice track. We are looking
for presentations for people who are new to FOSS.

Carl

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Just make the damn thing work! (was Re: Dictionary Syncing)

2011-01-01 Thread Michael Wheatland

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 3:28 AM, Zaphod Feeblejocks  wrote:
> Hi Charles,
>
>> > So why is there so much duplication of effort in the campaign
>> > against MS?
>>
>> I strongly disagree with your assertion that we are or should be
>> engaging in any kind of 'campaign against Microsoft', or even that our
>> long term goal is or should be to 'replace Microsoft Office as the
>> package of choice...'
>
> Allow me to rephrase myself then:
>
> "Why is there so much duplication of effort in the campaign to replace 
> Microsoft products,
> on grounds of ethics, user choice, or simply being better?"
>
> In any business, there is an aspect of being 'against' others.  Newspapers 
> compete against
> each other for market share.  Retaillers are 'against' each other.  Even 
> Debian are 'against'
> Red Hat to an extent, but work together to develop both of their wider 
> interests.
>
>
>> What I think we are or should be striving for is to simply be the best
>> Office/Productivity software available, whether free or commercial.
>>
>> We do and should NOT have to put Microsoft Office Down in order to raise
>> ourselves up. If we cannot stand on our own to feet based solely on our
>> own merits, then we deserve to fall flat on our faces.
>
> I'm not putting MSO down.  I think my post was very complementary towards MS 
> and their
> efforts.  Yes, they might have a few questionable marketing tactics (that we 
> should speak
> about), but they also have some fine engineers who make fine products.
>
> Thanks for giving me the chance to calrify my thoughts.
>
> zf

Zaphod,
I totally agree with your assessment of the situation. The work
required to implement such an integration would be much larger but the
payoff would be worth it for coordination and integration of an open
source language management system.

Great idea.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Dictionary Syncing

My apologies for the mis understanding there Lee. I think the problem we
would run into is 2 different schools of thought on how the same goal should
be achieved.

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Lee Hyde  wrote:

> On 01/01/11 10:26, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> > The advantage we have of using dicollect is that sophie part of that
> > community already lee. We would have the backing of the lead dev as well
> as
> > their entire team of devs to help work with us in implementing dicollect.
> >
>
> Please understand that I wasn't suggesting you dump dicollect (and
> Sophie) in favour of wiktionary. But rather that you collaborate with
> both in an effort to:
>
> 1) Pool your collective resources, in particular wiktionary and
> dicollects collective submission 'crowds'.
>
> 2) Provide a more robust and feature rich dictionary resource.
>
> Allow me to illustrate. LibreOffice, dicollect and wiktionary could
> collaborate to achieve the following:
>
> 1) Define a HTML standard which would allow the scraping of wiktionary
> articles for spellings, alternatives and localised spellings,
> definitions, etymological information, synonyms and antonyms.
>
> 2) Use the above HTML standard to allow efficient conversion (through
> scraping) of wiktionary articles to hunspell formatted dictionaries and
> thesauruses.
>
> 3) Merge or cross-reference the wiktionary and dicollect submission
> processes. Such that either
>
>i) The two project merge and subsequently use the same submission
> processes, or
>
>ii) A submission to dicollect results in automatic scraping of the
> relevant wiktionary article, and if none exists automatically generates
> a stub (pending moderation). Whilst A submission to wiktionary (pending
> moderation?) automatically triggers a submission to dicollect.
>
> 4) Develop efficient in-application submission mechanisms for both
> dicollect (simple) and wiktionary (rich) from within LibreOffice
> applications. The later could be incorporated within a separate
> dictionary application as outlined below.
>
> 5) Develop an interface to access wiktionary's rich pool of dictionary
> information, perhaps a separate LibreOffice dictionary/thesaurus
> application. Such an application could reside on the cloud and simply
> use custom CSS to meld wiktionary articles into the application chrome.
>
> Of point *3*, I favour *ii* as the wikimedia interface of wiktionary may
> intimidate the casual user seeking only to submit a spelling or
> alternative spelling.
>
> I realise of course that such a collaboration, being between three
> organisations, would be far from easy. But it does seem that wiktionary
> and dicollect, at least, share a common enough goal that it would be
> advantageous to try. Especially given that wiktionary already has a
> substantial multi-lingual user-base (in particular English) where as
> dicollect appears to be limited to French alone (or am I incorrect in
> that assumption).
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Lee Hyde.
>
> --
> "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"
>
>-- Dr. Samuel Johnson (April 7th, 1775)
>
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
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>
>


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc (was:Do not support writing to OOXML format)

Whats really held OOo and will hold LO back is the lack of an equivalent
program such as outlook.

There are one of three ways it can be done.

1) fork something like evolution which has all that done and integrate it
into the LO suite

2) or install software that already exists in the open source arena.

the problem with 2 is that it will greatly increase the download size, which
would pose issues for people with slow bandwidth.

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 6:07 PM, Cia Watson  wrote:

> On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 12:16:06 -
> Zaphod Feeblejocks  wrote:
>
> > > > The Go-oo homepage also says "Going forward, the Go-oo project
> > > > will be discontinued in favor of LibreOffice." Does that mean
> > > > that LibreOffice is driven by Novell too?
>
> > Ways to resolve this include:
> > - Open (and easy to find) statistics on the numbers of current
> > developers on LibO and their background.
> > - More clear input from Google, etc., towards easy integration with
> > Google Docs (in the way that the MSO integration with the web-based
> > version of MSO will become something users expect).
> > - Joint-branding with Thunderbird, Scribus, etc. There have been many
> > posts on the OOo lists over the years asking "do you do a calendar?"
> > or "Do you have a Publisher replacement".  No, we don't - but clearly
> > promoting other open source projects and working with them to make
> > life easy for people coming away from MSO helps all people.
>
> Since this looks a little like a wish-list, I thought I'd add mine. (Or
> am I engaging in wishful thinking? :-) )
>
> I think it would be nice to be able to open AbiWord documents (.abw)
> that render properly. LibO (and OO) Writer will open the file, but
> there's a lot of coding visible, I'm guessing it's xml code.  I can
> open odt files just fine in AbiWord (as well as doc and docx files)
> and they render properly; but the reverse isn't true. Therefore, since I
> have some documents already in abw format, I generally stick with
> AbiWord for my few word-processing needs.
>
> Happy New Year to all!
>
> Cia W
>
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>
>


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Wolf Halton

LibOffice on the web would be able to export in almost any format. We are
often saying "ms doesn't play well with others, and one of the benefits of
open source and open standards DO play well with others" , so let's commit
to playing well with others.

Wolf Halton

PS happy new year.
On Jan 1, 2011 12:36 PM, "Charles Marcus"  wrote:
> On 2011-01-01 12:07 PM, Zaphod Feeblejocks wrote:
>> Office 2013/4 will quite possibly drop .doc export, just as Word
>> 6/95 export was dropped from Word 2003 - after a failed attempt to
>> drop it from 2000. MS can do this because they are the market leader.
>> To fail to offer even rudimentary docx export would damage LibO's
>> market penetration.
>
> And every time Microsoft drops support for legacy formats, the fact that
> LibO continues to support them will just be 'one more reason' that LibO
> is 'better'... :)
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Just make the damn thing work! (was Re: Dictionary Syncing)

On 01/01/11 17:35, Charles Marcus wrote:
> What I think we are or should be striving for is to simply be the best
> Office/Productivity software available, whether free or commercial.
> 
> We do and should NOT have to put Microsoft Office Down in order to raise
> ourselves up. If we cannot stand on our own to feet based solely on our
> own merits, then we deserve to fall flat on our faces.
>

I *think* that is precisely the point *Zaphod* was attempting to make.
More precisely (s)he was attempting to highlight a perceived duplication
in efforts that may prove a hindrance to that goal.

-- 
"The only demand that property recognizes, is its own gluttonous
appetite for greater wealth, because wealth means power; the power to
subdue, to crush, to exploit, the power to enslave, to outrage, to degrade."

-- Emma Goldman, Anarchism & Other Essays (1910)


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Just make the damn thing work! (was Re: Dictionary Syncing)

Hi Charles,

> > So why is there so much duplication of effort in the campaign
> > against MS?
> 
> I strongly disagree with your assertion that we are or should be
> engaging in any kind of 'campaign against Microsoft', or even that our
> long term goal is or should be to 'replace Microsoft Office as the
> package of choice...'

Allow me to rephrase myself then:

"Why is there so much duplication of effort in the campaign to replace 
Microsoft products, 
on grounds of ethics, user choice, or simply being better?"

In any business, there is an aspect of being 'against' others.  Newspapers 
compete against 
each other for market share.  Retaillers are 'against' each other.  Even Debian 
are 'against' 
Red Hat to an extent, but work together to develop both of their wider 
interests.

 
> What I think we are or should be striving for is to simply be the best
> Office/Productivity software available, whether free or commercial.
> 
> We do and should NOT have to put Microsoft Office Down in order to raise
> ourselves up. If we cannot stand on our own to feet based solely on our
> own merits, then we deserve to fall flat on our faces.

I'm not putting MSO down.  I think my post was very complementary towards MS 
and their 
efforts.  Yes, they might have a few questionable marketing tactics (that we 
should speak 
about), but they also have some fine engineers who make fine products.

Thanks for giving me the chance to calrify my thoughts.

zf

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[tdf-discuss] (Fwd) The French Gov. loves Microsoft

Did you know that anything running Linux in France is not a computer?  The 
outworking of 
this is a skewed market in favour of MS operating systems, and therefore in 
favour of MS 
applications.  This DOES affect LibO.



From: http://tinyurl.com/33ynbv7

"Microsoft apparently has quite a following in the French government, which has 
recently 
decided to tax tablets...but only those that aren´t running a Windows operating 
system.

"It has been the case for some time now that France has taxed mp3 players in an 
attempt to 
compensate for piracy of media, but according to French magazine Numerama, that 
existing legislation does not extend to computers.

"As a result, the government needed a way to define what devices qualify as 
computers, 
which led to the decision to deem a device a computer only if it runs Microsoft 
Windows. 
This means that, as far as the French government is concerned, a tablet running 
any other 
operating system -- including Linux, Mac OS, or Android -- is just a device 
used by pirates 
who need to be taxed."





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Re: [tdf-discuss] Just make the damn thing work! (was Re: Dictionary Syncing)

2011-01-01 Thread Charles Marcus

On 2011-01-01 12:07 PM, Zaphod Feeblejocks wrote:
> A few points to remember though:
> We are in a long-term goal to replace MS Office as the package 
> of-choice. As part of the wider open-source fraternity, we are in
> long-term campaign to remove Microsoft's influence and bring back
> proper choice to the user.

> So why is there so much duplication of effort in the campaign
> against MS?

I strongly disagree with your assertion that we are or should be
engaging in any kind of 'campaign against Microsoft', or even that our
long term goal is or should be to 'replace Microsoft Office as the
package of choice...'

What I think we are or should be striving for is to simply be the best
Office/Productivity software available, whether free or commercial.

We do and should NOT have to put Microsoft Office Down in order to raise
ourselves up. If we cannot stand on our own to feet based solely on our
own merits, then we deserve to fall flat on our faces.

Obviously, I already believe that this is already where we are, or I
wouldn't be here.

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Charles

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Charles Marcus

On 2011-01-01 12:07 PM, Zaphod Feeblejocks wrote:
> Office 2013/4 will quite possibly drop .doc export, just as Word
> 6/95 export was dropped from Word 2003 - after a failed attempt to
> drop it from 2000. MS can do this because they are the market leader.
> To fail to offer even rudimentary docx export would damage LibO's
> market penetration.

And every time Microsoft drops support for legacy formats, the fact that
LibO continues to support them will just be 'one more reason' that LibO
is 'better'... :)

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Charles

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Just make the damn thing work! (was Re: Dictionary Syncing)

On 01/01/11 17:07, Zaphod Feeblejocks wrote:
> Why does Thunderbird, which ships with 
> American English need an extension before it can use a British English 
> dictionary?  Why 
> can Thunderbird not share a dictionary with LibO.  What about Scribus? MSO 
> users are 
> used to a shared dictionary across apps.  

I *think* Mozilla Thunderbird uses hunspell now, so surely it should be
possible to share dictionaries with OOo/LibO.

I wonder whether it would be appropriate to launch a new project, under
the auspices of The Document Foundation, concerned with language. It
could co-ordinate collaboration efforts between organisations like
dicollect, wiktionary and alike to produce standardised spelling and
grammar dictionaries and thesauruses for use by other projects (that use
hunspell). The reason why I suggest a separate project is that, outside
of product integration efforts, the standardisation of language requires
(I assume) very different skill-sets to those required for coding, and
organisations like dicollect and wiktionary are probably best placed to
take the lead in that arena.

Also, I agree with everything Zaphod said.

Kind Regards,

Lee Hyde.

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-- Dr. Samuel Johnson (April 7th, 1775)

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc (was:Do not support writing to OOXML format)

2011-01-01 Thread Cia Watson

On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 12:16:06 -
Zaphod Feeblejocks  wrote:

> > > The Go-oo homepage also says "Going forward, the Go-oo project
> > > will be discontinued in favor of LibreOffice." Does that mean
> > > that LibreOffice is driven by Novell too?

> Ways to resolve this include:
> - Open (and easy to find) statistics on the numbers of current
> developers on LibO and their background.
> - More clear input from Google, etc., towards easy integration with
> Google Docs (in the way that the MSO integration with the web-based
> version of MSO will become something users expect).
> - Joint-branding with Thunderbird, Scribus, etc. There have been many
> posts on the OOo lists over the years asking "do you do a calendar?"
> or "Do you have a Publisher replacement".  No, we don't - but clearly
> promoting other open source projects and working with them to make
> life easy for people coming away from MSO helps all people.  

Since this looks a little like a wish-list, I thought I'd add mine. (Or
am I engaging in wishful thinking? :-) )

I think it would be nice to be able to open AbiWord documents (.abw)
that render properly. LibO (and OO) Writer will open the file, but
there's a lot of coding visible, I'm guessing it's xml code.  I can
open odt files just fine in AbiWord (as well as doc and docx files)
and they render properly; but the reverse isn't true. Therefore, since I
have some documents already in abw format, I generally stick with
AbiWord for my few word-processing needs. 

Happy New Year to all!

Cia W

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

Hi Sveinn,

> Sure, but how about conservation and readability by future generations 
> (when there's no more Microsoft knowledge around and nobody knows 
> anymore how to decrypt all the nuances of.doc + .docx files) ?

Fair point.

But: most users do not care.  Not exporting to Word will make it look like LibO 
is faulty.

I have to save in MSO formats to share work with others.  At work, we have an 
MSO policy.  
While I can use whatever I like on my desktop, I have to save spreadsheets in 
MSO formats 
because Excel 07 kills ODS formulae.  If I prepare a document as ODT, the few 
Word 2003 
dies-hards complain I am refusing to inter-operate.  I do still assign student 
work to be 
submitted as either .doc or .odt and mark students down for using .docx (they 
failed to read 
the instructions).  They are also marked down for not using proper spacing and 
a serif font.

I don't want to see the .docx format spread any further and advocate using ODT 
as the 
default.  However, not having the option to export as .doc and .docx will cause 
users to 
wonder if they want to promote LibO.

> > It must be arrogant for them to send you a format you don't support.
> > Also, if the Win 7 users don't know what format the documents are in,
> > why does it matter if it's returned to them in a .doc format?
> 
> Think you hit the nail on the head, pal.
> Those who ignore any notion of a file format, will do it both ways, 
> always, anyways...
> 

Office on-the-web only saves in docx.  Office 2013/4 will quite possibly drop 
.doc export, 
just as Word 6/95 export was dropped from Word 2003 - after a failed attempt to 
drop it 
from 2000.  MS can do this because they are the market leader.  To fail to 
offer even 
rudimentary docx export would damage LibO's market penetration. 

my thoughts anyway!

zf


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[tdf-discuss] Just make the damn thing work! (was Re: Dictionary Syncing)

On 1 Jan 2011 at 14:53, Lee Hyde wrote:

> On 01/01/11 10:26, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> > The advantage we have of using dicollect is that sophie part of that
> > community already lee. We would have the backing of the lead dev as well as
> > their entire team of devs to help work with us in implementing dicollect.
> > 
> 
> Please understand that I wasn't suggesting you dump dicollect (and
> Sophie) in favour of wiktionary. But rather that you collaborate with
> both in an effort to:
> 
> 1) Pool your collective resources, in particular wiktionary and
> dicollects collective submission 'crowds'.

Sophie and all others have done great work and their experience should not be 
overlooked.  
I hope she will remain a valuable part of LibO for a long time to come.

A few points to remember though:
We are in a long-term goal to replace MS Office as the package of-choice.  As 
part of the 
wider open-source fraternity, we are in long-term campaign to remove 
Microsoft's influence 
and bring back proper choice to the user.

Do not underestimate Microsoft's resources, strength or man-power.  They 
published the 
Encarta dictionary in the 1990s as an attempt to 'standardise' English.  Having 
a huge body 
of work to draw on is a useful weapon for them.  They freely share clipart, 
fonts and heaven-
knows what else between their projects.

So why is there so much duplication of effort in the campaign against MS?  
Wiktionary want 
a fully catalogued English language (plus French, German, etc).  TDF want this 
also.  
Scribus want this.  Thunderbird wants this.  Any open-source document 
preparation tool 
wants this.

It is logical to pool our efforts in this area.  Why does Thunderbird, which 
ships with 
American English need an extension before it can use a British English 
dictionary?  Why 
can Thunderbird not share a dictionary with LibO.  What about Scribus? MSO 
users are 
used to a shared dictionary across apps.  

It's a small thing, but I know a lot of people who use a lot of 'small things' 
as an excuse to 
keep using MSO.  Whether it's dictionaries or the interface, people like the 
new program to 
work like the program they are used to.  If it doesn't, they become unhappy. 

Users of Microsoft products have a fairly seamless experience.  They have MSO 
on the 
desktop and now on the web.  There's integration with Bing.  Hotmail and 
Outlook are 
designed to work together.  If I use the (formerly) open-source Paint.NET, I 
have proper 
access to the MS Windows clipboard.  GIMP cannot paste in something copied from 
Paint.NET.  I know the reasoning - most users may assume GIMP is broken.

There can be a lot of fundamentalism in the open-source world - championing 
your own fork 
or project and ignoring others.  While a choice of FreeBSD or Linux is great, I 
don't 
understand why FreeBSD users scorn Linux users.  Or why Debian users can scorn 
Ubuntu.  
Will we see LibO users mocking OOo users in a few years?  Do LibO/OOo users 
mock 
Symphony users?  Is there someone readong this post who thinks "If you don't 
like the 
dictionary that ships with LibO just download some other obscure thing, run a 
few 
commands that make no sense to most users, check a few boxes, and there you go 
- same 
initial dictionary files as Thunderbird.  Now set up a daily job that syncs 
them."  

Remember the users.

Microsoft won because they focused on the fact that most users neither know nor 
care how 
things work.  Users just want the complexity hidden away and a consistent 
experience 
across applications.  That's (in part) why Word/Excel on Windows flattened 
1-2-3 and 
AmiPro or Word Star, which had little in common and could not easily share 
data. 

Now that MS are giving away Office for free (on the web), or cheap (£40 to UK 
school 
students - free to many University students).  Now that MS are buying up chunks 
of 
commonly used apps (have you seen the advertising on Facebook and how it links 
with 
Bing?).  Now that MS are managing a seamless experience for users, at 
reasonable costs... 
it's time for FOSS to realise that free-to-use and free-as-in-speech are not 
the selling points 
we think they are.  

Most users don't care about file-formats, until they have 10 years worth of 
data locked into 
Word.
Most users don't care who supplies their on-line tools.
Most users don't care about the reasons why application A does not fully work 
with 
application B.
Most users don't care about arguments that make the FOSS community seem like 
religious 
fanatics.

Most users just want something that works.  
(and if they want religious views, they will go to their nearest church / 
mosque / temple / 
synagogue / cable TV outlet)

zf

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Happy New Year from Arizona

HNY from Northern Ireland

On 1 Jan 2011 at 2:38, Timothy Mark Brennan, Jr. wrote:

> Happy New Year from Brazil
> 
> 2011/1/1 Prabath Galagamage :
> > Happy New Year from Sri Lanka
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 3:01 PM, Craig A. Eddy  wrote:
> >
> >> Happy New Year from "The Valley of the Sun" in Arizona.  Although it
> >> tried to be "The Valley of the Snow" with this last storm.
> >>
> >> Despite strange weather patterns, here's wishing all of you a BETTER new
> >> year.
> >>
> >> Craig A. Eddy
> >> Tyche
> >>
> >> --
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Prabath Galagamage
> > http://textlk.blogspot.com/
> > http://agniezine.wordpress.com/
> > http://www.ejsa.info
> >
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> >
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Dictionary Syncing

On 01/01/11 10:26, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> The advantage we have of using dicollect is that sophie part of that
> community already lee. We would have the backing of the lead dev as well as
> their entire team of devs to help work with us in implementing dicollect.
> 

Please understand that I wasn't suggesting you dump dicollect (and
Sophie) in favour of wiktionary. But rather that you collaborate with
both in an effort to:

1) Pool your collective resources, in particular wiktionary and
dicollects collective submission 'crowds'.

2) Provide a more robust and feature rich dictionary resource.

Allow me to illustrate. LibreOffice, dicollect and wiktionary could
collaborate to achieve the following:

1) Define a HTML standard which would allow the scraping of wiktionary
articles for spellings, alternatives and localised spellings,
definitions, etymological information, synonyms and antonyms.

2) Use the above HTML standard to allow efficient conversion (through
scraping) of wiktionary articles to hunspell formatted dictionaries and
thesauruses.

3) Merge or cross-reference the wiktionary and dicollect submission
processes. Such that either

i) The two project merge and subsequently use the same submission
processes, or

ii) A submission to dicollect results in automatic scraping of the
relevant wiktionary article, and if none exists automatically generates
a stub (pending moderation). Whilst A submission to wiktionary (pending
moderation?) automatically triggers a submission to dicollect.

4) Develop efficient in-application submission mechanisms for both
dicollect (simple) and wiktionary (rich) from within LibreOffice
applications. The later could be incorporated within a separate
dictionary application as outlined below.

5) Develop an interface to access wiktionary's rich pool of dictionary
information, perhaps a separate LibreOffice dictionary/thesaurus
application. Such an application could reside on the cloud and simply
use custom CSS to meld wiktionary articles into the application chrome.

Of point *3*, I favour *ii* as the wikimedia interface of wiktionary may
intimidate the casual user seeking only to submit a spelling or
alternative spelling.

I realise of course that such a collaboration, being between three
organisations, would be far from easy. But it does seem that wiktionary
and dicollect, at least, share a common enough goal that it would be
advantageous to try. Especially given that wiktionary already has a
substantial multi-lingual user-base (in particular English) where as
dicollect appears to be limited to French alone (or am I incorrect in
that assumption).

Kind Regards,

Lee Hyde.

-- 
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-- Dr. Samuel Johnson (April 7th, 1775)

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc (was:Do not support writing to OOXML format)

You had some very good ideas, my comments about them:

About Google, they have a proprietary File Format, as for now, they only
support  ODT and ODS. So I'm wondering why they don't support other ODF File
Formats. It would be good if someone could talk with them about that.

Also, it would be great to make an open specified container (probably with
the possibility of different themes), to achieve a seamless connection and
interaction to Thunderbird, Scribus, and any other SW that wants to.


On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 13:16, Zaphod Feeblejocks  wrote:

> > > The Go-oo homepage also says "Going forward, the Go-oo project will be
> > > discontinued in favor of LibreOffice." Does that mean that LibreOffice
> > > is driven by Novell too?
> > >
> >
> > I wouldn't put in that simple words. Actually, LibreOffice is open to
> > any developer, individual or company that whishes to contribute to our
> > code and endeavour. On the TDF announcement we invited Oracle to join
> > us and suggested them to offer the brand OpenOffice to TDF (later this
> > was politely declined by Oracle).
>
> I think this is an important issue, and one which can be open to massive
> amount of FUD.
> I'm sure TDF is thankful to Novell for their input, but the wariness that
> exists to anyone who
> is working with Microsoft for any reason cannot be ignored.
>
> Ways to resolve this include:
> - Open (and easy to find) statistics on the numbers of current developers
> on LibO and their
> background.
> - More clear input from Google, etc., towards easy integration with Google
> Docs (in the way
> that the MSO integration with the web-based version of MSO will become
> something users
> expect).
> - Joint-branding with Thunderbird, Scribus, etc. There have been many posts
> on the OOo
> lists over the years asking "do you do a calendar?" or "Do you have a
> Publisher
> replacement".  No, we don't - but clearly promoting other open source
> projects and working
> with them to make life easy for people coming away from MSO helps all
> people.  This would
> include LibO pointing to downloads for Mozilla packages and vice-versa. If
> Mozilla wanted
> to point to both LibO and OOo as the projects grow apart, that's fine - we
> are all part of a
> larger OS fraternity.
> - Working on a common look-and-feel in a number of OS apps.  Could a
> Mozilla 'skin' that
> can be applied to LibO, OOo, Scribus, etc., be viable?  Or a 'Traditional
> OO' skin that can
> be used across packages be there for people who don't like to change UI
> much?
>
> What do you think?
>
> zf
>
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc (was:Do not support writing to OOXML format)

You mention other projects why not package other projects as options for
instance during install. User is presented with a list of options for
instance thunderbird for email etc?

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Zaphod Feeblejocks wrote:

> > > The Go-oo homepage also says "Going forward, the Go-oo project will be
> > > discontinued in favor of LibreOffice." Does that mean that LibreOffice
> > > is driven by Novell too?
> > >
> >
> > I wouldn't put in that simple words. Actually, LibreOffice is open to
> > any developer, individual or company that whishes to contribute to our
> > code and endeavour. On the TDF announcement we invited Oracle to join
> > us and suggested them to offer the brand OpenOffice to TDF (later this
> > was politely declined by Oracle).
>
> I think this is an important issue, and one which can be open to massive
> amount of FUD.
> I'm sure TDF is thankful to Novell for their input, but the wariness that
> exists to anyone who
> is working with Microsoft for any reason cannot be ignored.
>
> Ways to resolve this include:
> - Open (and easy to find) statistics on the numbers of current developers
> on LibO and their
> background.
> - More clear input from Google, etc., towards easy integration with Google
> Docs (in the way
> that the MSO integration with the web-based version of MSO will become
> something users
> expect).
> - Joint-branding with Thunderbird, Scribus, etc. There have been many posts
> on the OOo
> lists over the years asking "do you do a calendar?" or "Do you have a
> Publisher
> replacement".  No, we don't - but clearly promoting other open source
> projects and working
> with them to make life easy for people coming away from MSO helps all
> people.  This would
> include LibO pointing to downloads for Mozilla packages and vice-versa. If
> Mozilla wanted
> to point to both LibO and OOo as the projects grow apart, that's fine - we
> are all part of a
> larger OS fraternity.
> - Working on a common look-and-feel in a number of OS apps.  Could a
> Mozilla 'skin' that
> can be applied to LibO, OOo, Scribus, etc., be viable?  Or a 'Traditional
> OO' skin that can
> be used across packages be there for people who don't like to change UI
> much?
>
> What do you think?
>
> zf
>
>
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>


-- 
Jonathan Aquilina

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Re: [tdf-discuss] happy new year from Italy :-)

2011-01-01 Thread Cor Nouws


yahoo-pier_andreit wrote (01-01-11 09:25)

could the 2011 take to you as much joy and happynes as to be more than
enough so to gift the remaining to others.


Thank you so much!

A whole lot of peace in our harts in 2011 :-)

Cor

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 - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -


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[tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc (was:Do not support writing to OOXML format)

> > The Go-oo homepage also says "Going forward, the Go-oo project will be
> > discontinued in favor of LibreOffice." Does that mean that LibreOffice
> > is driven by Novell too?
> >
> 
> I wouldn't put in that simple words. Actually, LibreOffice is open to 
> any developer, individual or company that whishes to contribute to our 
> code and endeavour. On the TDF announcement we invited Oracle to join 
> us and suggested them to offer the brand OpenOffice to TDF (later this 
> was politely declined by Oracle).

I think this is an important issue, and one which can be open to massive amount 
of FUD.  
I'm sure TDF is thankful to Novell for their input, but the wariness that 
exists to anyone who 
is working with Microsoft for any reason cannot be ignored.

Ways to resolve this include:
- Open (and easy to find) statistics on the numbers of current developers on 
LibO and their 
background.
- More clear input from Google, etc., towards easy integration with Google Docs 
(in the way 
that the MSO integration with the web-based version of MSO will become 
something users 
expect).
- Joint-branding with Thunderbird, Scribus, etc. There have been many posts on 
the OOo 
lists over the years asking "do you do a calendar?" or "Do you have a Publisher 
replacement".  No, we don't - but clearly promoting other open source projects 
and working 
with them to make life easy for people coming away from MSO helps all people.  
This would 
include LibO pointing to downloads for Mozilla packages and vice-versa. If 
Mozilla wanted 
to point to both LibO and OOo as the projects grow apart, that's fine - we are 
all part of a 
larger OS fraternity.
- Working on a common look-and-feel in a number of OS apps.  Could a Mozilla 
'skin' that 
can be applied to LibO, OOo, Scribus, etc., be viable?  Or a 'Traditional OO' 
skin that can 
be used across packages be there for people who don't like to change UI much? 

What do you think?

zf


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Olivier Hallot


HI

Em 31-12-2010 17:45, Carl Symons escreveu:

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Andy Brown  wrote:

On Fri Dec 31 2010 11:17:28 GMT-0800 (PST)  Carl Symons wrote:


On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Andy Brown
wrote:


On Fri Dec 31 2010 10:53:16 GMT-0800 (PST)  Paul Gress wrote:


On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:




(snip)


As I've stated previously, what version?  I have installed OOo dev 3.4
(m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a "docx".


Paul


They are using the Go-oo version so that explains it.  Plain old OOo does
not have the docx save as docx ability.  If one reads the links in the
original post they will find out why.  Hint: Novell is in bed with M$.




Does this mean that Go-oo is driven by Novell? The contact on
go-oo.org/about has a novell.com email address.



Yep.  Go back to the first message in this thread and follow the links.
  Very eye opening.

Andy



You're right, some interesting reading there and on the links.

The Go-oo homepage also says "Going forward, the Go-oo project will be
discontinued in favor of LibreOffice." Does that mean that LibreOffice
is driven by Novell too?



I wouldn't put in that simple words. Actually, LibreOffice is open to 
any developer, individual or company that whishes to contribute to our 
code and endeavour. On the TDF announcement we invited Oracle to join 
us and suggested them to offer the brand OpenOffice to TDF (later this 
was politely declined by Oracle).


LibreOffice has many contributions of Novell engineers, as well as 
Oracle engineers too. But is is not an Novell product nor TDF is a 
Novell shop. The Next Decade Manifesto says a lot on our purpose and TDF 
is better described in this page:

http://www.documentfoundation.org/

Please help us not to make the same mistake as OpenOffice.org did.

Kind regards
--
Olivier Hallot
Founder, Steering Commitee Member - The Document Foundation
Voicing the enterprise
Translation Leader for Brazilian Portuguese

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Dictionary Syncing

The advantage we have of using dicollect is that sophie part of that
community already lee. We would have the backing of the lead dev as well as
their entire team of devs to help work with us in implementing dicollect.

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Lee Hyde  wrote:

> On 31/12/10 16:00, sophie wrote:
> > You can reach them on the FR list, they are part of our community since
> > a long time. But adding the code won't be enough, there is a lot of work
> > behind that needs several hands. So my advice should be first to look
> > for a community to handle the effort.
> >
> > Kind regards
> > Sophie
>
> Have you considered a link-up with Wiktionary. A collaboration with an
> established crowd-sourcing initiative such as Wiktionary could mitigate
> at least some of the issues of man-power you highlight.
>
> Furthermore such a collaboration could lead to more feature rich
> dictionary and thesaurus, as part of LibreOffice. A dictionary that
> corporates definitions, pronunciation guides and etymological
> information as well as alternative spellings (etc...)
>
> Just my tuppence!
>
>
> --
> "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties
> than standing armies."
>
>-- Thomas Jefferson
>
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-- 
Jonathan Aquilina

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Happy New Year 2011