Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
I know what you are going through, as I to have tried to unsubscribe, as some of the people on this forum do not have a great education an become quite abusive. It is not worth being on this forum, when it is taken to the lowest common denominator. On 9/03/2011 6:10 PM, Bill Sippo wrote: NoOpglgxgat sbcglobal.net writes: Of late there are multiple posts on the users list regarding mail list subscribe and unsubscribe issues. .. ... However, the current issue of mail list subscribers not being able to subscribe/unsubscribe/modify user settings/etc in mlmmj as they can in mailman is an issue. .. When I subscribed I received the following: From: discuss+helpat documentfoundation.org . . Welcome! You have been subscribed to the discussat documentfoundation.org mailinglist. . To unsubscribe send a message to: discuss+unsubscribeat documentfoundation.org ... Let's please discuss nip this issue in the bud now/early before the lists/users grow can no longer be managed properly. Gary Lee A while back I joined the users mail list, and since then have been receiving in my in-box each day a large number of messages, more than I can handle, so I've been trying to unsubscribe. I'm using the information and unsubscribe link from the bottom of each message received; tried all sorts of ways of using the link, but nothing has had the slightest effect or drawn any response. Can't think of anything else to do, so would appreciate any helpw hich might save me from the daily deluge. Bill Sippo -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hello, Len Copley wrote on 2011-04-12 12.39: I know what you are going through, as I to have tried to unsubscribe, as some of the people on this forum do not have a great education an become quite abusive. It is not worth being on this forum, when it is taken to the lowest common denominator. Where exactly is the problem? Did you send an empty e-mail to users+unsubscr...@libreoffice.org as indicated under *EVERY* e-mail on the list? If so, did you receive an automatic reply back? If so, did you *READ* it? If so, did you send the *CONFIRMATION* e-mail as described in the autoreply? If so, did you receive an unsubscription notice? If you let me know at which step the problem occurs, I can investigate... Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hi yes I sent about three or four. On 12/04/2011 6:42 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hello, Len Copley wrote on 2011-04-12 12.39: I know what you are going through, as I to have tried to unsubscribe, as some of the people on this forum do not have a great education an become quite abusive. It is not worth being on this forum, when it is taken to the lowest common denominator. Where exactly is the problem? Did you send an empty e-mail to users+unsubscr...@libreoffice.org as indicated under *EVERY* e-mail on the list? If so, did you receive an automatic reply back? If so, did you *READ* it? If so, did you send the *CONFIRMATION* e-mail as described in the autoreply? If so, did you receive an unsubscription notice? If you let me know at which step the problem occurs, I can investigate... Florian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hello, Len Copley wrote on 2011-04-12 12.57: Hi yes I sent about three or four. please *READ* my e-mail *THOROUGHLY*: 1. Did you send an empty e-mail to users+unsubscr...@libreoffice.org? 2. If so, did you receive an automatic reply back? 3. If so, did you send the *CONFIRMATION* e-mail as described in the autoreply? 4. If so, did you receive an unsubscription notice? Please let me know at which *STEP* it stops. Saying yes I sent about three or four - what did you send? Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hi, Len Copley wrote on 2011-04-12 14.35: Hi, no I did not receive a reply, to any of my unsubscribe e-mails. 1. did you check your spam folder? 2. If nothing is in your spam folder, please send the unsubscribe e-mail again, and then forward (not Cc!) it to me. I will then have a look into the mail server logs. Thanks, Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On 09/03/2011 NoOp wrote: Note: it seems that I've fallen into this category on the OOo list; after 5 years of posts, I'm suddenly no longer subscribed, nor can I comment on OOo bug reports any longer unless I create a new username/password... but that's another story Yes, that is another story (not related to LibreOffice or to the current discussion) and if the password reset function of http://openoffice.org/people/forgot_password does not help you, you should notify the ooo-migration discuss list: to join it, you'll need to register on http://kenai.com/projects/ooo-migration/lists or send a message with subject help to sy...@ooo-migration.kenai.com and follow the instructions; the web interface is more convenient. Regards, Andrea. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hello Charles, Charles Marcus wrote on 2011-03-11 22.20: Then there is one massive reason to plan to switch to mailman once version 3 is ready (sounds like only a matter of months), since that version will remove all of the other objections, and provide a nice web interface for people to manage their subscriptions too... to be serious: Do not think we will migrate the mailing lists soon. It will be *A LOT* of work, and my take is that we should rather try to improve mlmmj. Do not forget, we are all volunteers. :-) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On 2011-03-12 7:56 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: to be serious: Do not think we will migrate the mailing lists soon. It will be *A LOT* of work, Maybe not... I'll go check and see if there is an easy way to migrate the archives and user accounts (the two hardest part of the migration I'm guessing)... and my take is that we should rather try to improve mlmmj. Do not forget, we are all volunteers. :-) I know... but the pain would be one time only. Unless you are planning on building a complete web interface for mlmmj, I just don't see a practical alternative, other than continuing to see these stupid 'UNSUBSCRIBE ME NOW OR I'LL SUE EVERY LAST MOTHER ONE OF YOU!!!' posts, and/or continue to piss people off because they are too stupid to read and follow instructions. -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hi Charles, Charles Marcus wrote on 2011-03-12 20.00: I know... but the pain would be one time only. Unless you are planning on building a complete web interface for mlmmj, I just don't see a practical alternative, other than continuing to see these stupid 'UNSUBSCRIBE ME NOW OR I'LL SUE EVERY LAST MOTHER ONE OF YOU!!!' posts, and/or continue to piss people off because they are too stupid to read and follow instructions. well, as much as help is appreciated, my take is still that we will *NOT* migrate so soon. Mailman 3 is not productive at the moment, and I think our mail system runs fairly well. We will have issues with other systems as well, there will always be troubles - given the amount of list use, I think the current number of complaints is rather low, and we can work on small glitches. So, sure, feel free to have a look, but don't be disappointed when there will be no migration in the next 6-18 months. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hi, NoOp wrote on 2011-03-11 04.51: Then perhaps a reminder email after 48 hours going back to advise something along the lines of: honestly, I think this makes things even more complicated. Note to Florian: Starting next week I'll install mlmmj on one of my test servers and see if I can gain some knowledge/exerience with it. I'm sure it will be better if someone with _real_ mlmmj experience provides added feedback in this thread, but I'm certainly willing to experiment/try. Sure, go ahead. However, I guess I already have a fair experience (you would call it not real? ok...) with mlmmj. Have been working with it for half a year now, and am in direct exchange with its authors. But some more people with experience are welcome. :-) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 6:29 AM, NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net wrote: On 03/10/2011 05:09 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 6:17 AM, NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net wrote: On 03/09/2011 06:16 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: [...] to share your expertise with us, without calling people stupid or ignorant, come back feel free to comment. They /are/ stupid, as they don't bother to read instructions. No excuse at all for this. They might be very intelligent otherwise, but when it comes to unsubscribing, they're too ignorant. Really? I suppose that you/we could dig up the archives and take a look. I reckon that in the majority of cases the issue is with users that are not experienced with mail lists. So what? That explains why people don't read instructions they even get with *every* mail? It is not a matter of being experienced with lists or not. It only requires knowing how to read. But then again, when you have a broken system that: 1) allows unsubscribed users to begin with, You still fail to describe why this is a broken system. and 2) have a link on your (OOo) support page that simply states: [...] You need to subscribe to the list first before you can post a question. Yes, this is written so that people register in te first place. And when you subscribe, you the unsubscribing instructions right away. However that doesn't seem to be that case, does it? Unsubscribed users are (as in the OOo case) are posting away on the lists. You make it sound like those would send tenths of messages while not being subscribed. If this is the case, then it's the moderator's fault. (well, if they don't care moderating those its their decision, but of course when one person keeps posting while not being subscribed, the moderator should either ask that person to subscribe, or add that person to the allowed posters list (on mlmmj this would be the same as a nomail subscription, i.e. you don't receive mail from the list, but are allowed to post nevertheless. /NEVER EVER/ has there been a technical problem with unsubscribing. It Really? I think that you are mistaken. There are multiple posts from long time OOo users (that can read) that have had issues with unsubscribing. Again. what were the technical reasons? Show me. I'm sure it always boils down to the person not *reading* the mailfooter, the instructions that are part of /every/ mail. Again the only problems are not understanding english (doesn't apply to the english user list), the confirmation mail of the list being treated as spam and using the wrong mail-address, i.e. trying to unsubscribe an address that isn't subscribed to begin with. No disputing that you'll get those for the very reasons I've mentioned. So what are the plans to prevent that happening on the LO lists? *Nothing* can prevent stupidity. You claimed a direct unsubscribe link (instead of the get-instruction ones the LibO list have now) would prevent complaints, and you referred to the OOo project in this regard. And my response is: This just doesn't work, you cannot use common sense when you have to deal with a huge crowd. There are always jerks. Even when 99% don't have any problem whatsoever, the remaining 1% will complain even louder, no matter what you do. And I'd ask again: you have experience on the OOo user list? Show me concrete examples please. I'd be very, very, very surprised if the OOo users list should be any different from the tenths of other lists. Really? Perhaps you'd care to rethink that. When you have a link on the support page that hooks inexperienced users up to a list you'll experience the problem whether they speak english or not. See the mention of the LO help info above. No, I definitely don't rethink that. The problem is (and will *always* be people too ignorant/lazy/stupid to read the instructions. Mailing lists use double-opt-in (and double-opt-out) for a reason. *NO* user will be subscribed (and thus might get tons of messages from the list) without completing the subscription process. This process requires sending an explicit mail to the subscription address. This address has no other form than the ubsubscribe address. When you manage to send a mail to the subscription address, then you'll manage to send one to the unsubscribe address (and no matter how often Florian mentions problems with gmail and the + in the address: There is no such problem. I absolutely have no clue where Florian did get that idea from). Also included with that mail are instructions on how to unsubscribe. With the direct address. So how can you continue to claim that the problem would not be people are not reading instructions. Yes, the one mail you get might be forgotten after a while, but still, *every* mail to the list has instructions in the footer. Again: How can you continue to state that the people's inability (or better unwillingness, ignorance, stupidity) to read the mail that bothers them so match is to account for their problem of
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On 2011-03-11 6:55 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: Again: No matter how fat discaimers or how often you write instructions on the website: You will *always* have to deal with stupid people. That's true, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't make things as clear and simple as possible to minimize the chances of misunderstanding... I just went through the unsub process before posting this, and it is way too 'clunky'... here are my thoughts... 1. Change the subject of the confirmation email. Something like: ACTION REQUIRED: You MUST CONFIRM your unsubscribe request from listname 2. Don't require the user to REPLY to the email - include a clickable LINK in the email they can click on to execute the unsub request. 3. Considering that the vast majority - over 99% most likely - of users who click on the current link actually want to unsubscribe, regardless of how you personally feel about it, there really, really needs to be a DIRECT unsub link in the footer. So change the footer to something like: -- Unsubscribe: E-mail to discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org List Help: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** Of course, each list should have the correct unsub link in its footer. There really is no reasonable, rational argument against adding this one liner to the footer. I'll bet making these three changes will resolve at least half of the problems people have, if not more. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On 2011-03-11 9:52 AM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: Charles Marcus schrieb: So change the footer to something like: Unsubscribe: E-mail to discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org List Help: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** minor change of line 2: I'd like rather: List Help: visit http://nice-url.libreoffice.org Fine with me... If some day someone provides me with http://nice-url.libreoffice.org I'll go and change footers as avised since january. I'm confused... you're ok with making the change, but won't do so until the list help is converted from the *current* email format to a web page? That doesn't make sense - these are two separate issues... if you can make the change, please do so, then once a web page help is created, you can change line 2 to the web link... Of course, each list should have the correct unsub link in its footer. like it's already the case with the this-list+help and is also the case in the mail sent to this-list+h...@lang.domain.tld That's a link to the *help* email... To unsubscribe from the digest of this list send a message to: [..] /reply note: clickable Link!! That brings up a new *email* message... I'm talking about a link that, with one click, takes you to a *web* page that simply says something like You have been unsubscribed from this-list - if this was in error, click 'here' to resubscribe. This is how many, many unsub links work... Hey... in fact, many unsub links in the email footer itself takes you to a secure confirmation *web page*, where you can then click the 'Yes, really unsub me now!' button... I like that idea much better now that I think of it... There really is no reasonable, rational argument against adding this one liner to the footer. Your right - it's waiting since weeks ;o)) but I share Christian's concerns, that changing the first line causes as much trouble as it avoids. I have seen no - ZERO - reasonable explanation as to how this causes *more* trouble... please reiterate... I'll bet making these three changes will resolve at least half of the problems people have, if not more. Guess: Lost!! ;o)) Not at all... I win this one hands down... -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On 2011-03-11 10:47 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi, Charles Marcus wrote on 2011-03-11 14.52: 2. Don't require the user to REPLY to the email - include a clickable LINK in the email they can click on to execute the unsub request. mlmmj does not provide that out of the box. Someone would have to code it. Does mlmmj not have a web interface for list members? -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hi Charles, *, Charles Marcus schrieb: On 2011-03-11 9:52 AM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: Charles Marcus schrieb: So change the footer to something like: Unsubscribe: E-mail to discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org List Help: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** minor change of line 2: I'd like rather: List Help: visit http://nice-url.libreoffice.org Fine with me... Uff! :o)) If some day someone provides me with http://nice-url.libreoffice.org I'll go and change footers as avised since january. I'm confused... you're ok with making the change, but won't do so until the list help is converted from the *current* email format to a web page? That doesn't make sense - these are two separate issues... if you can make the change, please do so, then once a web page help is created, you can change line 2 to the web link... You're right 2 seperate things. But for me: 2 times start action, which I don't like. It's nearly double work. My offer is to sit down and do the work *once* if all is fine. There is a big agenda waiting. You might remember: We're working on setting up the DVD environment. Of course, each list should have the correct unsub link in its footer. like it's already the case with the this-list+help and is also the case in the mail sent to this-list+h...@lang.domain.tld That's a link to the *help* email... To unsubscribe from the digest of this list send a message to: [..] /reply note: clickable Link!! That brings up a new *email* message... indeed. I'm talking about a link that, with one click, takes you to a *web* page that simply says something like You have been unsubscribed from this-list - if this was in error, click 'here' to resubscribe. Ah, didn't get that - but I still prefer: click here to confirm! ;o)) This is how many, many unsub links work... Now got it. As Florian wrote: isn't implemented yet. Hey... in fact, many unsub links in the email footer itself takes you to a secure confirmation *web page*, where you can then click the 'Yes, really unsub me now!' button... I like that idea much better now that I think of it... ditto There really is no reasonable, rational argument against adding this one liner to the footer. Your right - it's waiting since weeks ;o)) but I share Christian's concerns, that changing the first line causes as much trouble as it avoids. I have seen no - ZERO - reasonable explanation as to how this causes *more* trouble... please reiterate... O.K.: All subscribers not subscribed for normal mail will get trouble. recall: no universal unsubscribe for whatever subscription available. I'll bet making these three changes will resolve at least half of the problems people have, if not more. Guess: Lost!! ;o)) Not at all... I win this one hands down... With all requirements satisfied - maybe. :o)). Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images (german version already started) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On 2011-03-11 1:39 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote: Charles Marcus wrote on 2011-03-11 19.15: Does mlmmj not have a web interface for list members? Nope. Then there is one massive reason to plan to switch to mailman once version 3 is ready (sounds like only a matter of months), since that version will remove all of the other objections, and provide a nice web interface for people to manage their subscriptions too... -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On 2011-03-11 4:16 PM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: I have seen no - ZERO - reasonable explanation as to how this causes *more* trouble... please reiterate... O.K.: All subscribers not subscribed for normal mail will get trouble. recall: no universal unsubscribe for whatever subscription available. Eh? There are only two, right? Normal and Digest. And each list will have its own unsubscribe link... So, for the normal list: Unsubscribe: E-mail to list+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org and for the digest: Unsubscribe: E-mail to list-digest+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org I don't see the problem... -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hi Charles, *, Charles Marcus schrieb: On 2011-03-11 4:16 PM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: I have seen no - ZERO - reasonable explanation as to how this causes *more* trouble... please reiterate... O.K.: All subscribers not subscribed for normal mail will get trouble. recall: no universal unsubscribe for whatever subscription available. Eh? There are only two, right? Normal and Digest. No, it's three: nomail also. Admittedly the latter one won't cause problems because no one will be nagged by unwanted mails. And each list will have its own unsubscribe link... So, for the normal list: Unsubscribe: E-mail to list+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org and for the digest: Unsubscribe: E-mail to list-digest+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org I don't see the problem... Eeach mail of the digest contains the normal unsubscribe link which, if read at all, causes confusion. There could be the valid one at the end of each digest - only read by those who won't have/make troubles at all. Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images (german version already started) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hi Bill, Bill Sippo wrote on 2011-03-09 11.10: A while back I joined the users mail list, and since then have been receiving in my in-box each day a large number of messages, more than I can handle, so I've been trying to unsubscribe. I'm using the information and unsubscribe link from the bottom of each message received; tried all sorts of ways of using the link, but nothing has had the slightest effect or drawn any response. Can't think of anything else to do, so would appreciate any helpw hich might save me from the daily deluge. so, what did you exactly do? Did you send an empty e-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org If so, what did you receive back? Instantly received back To unsubscribe send a message to: users+unsubscr...@libreoffice.org To unsubscribe from the digest of this list send a message to: users+unsubscribe-dig...@libreoffice.org To unsubscribe from the nomail version this list send a message to: users+unsubscribe-nom...@libreoffice.org Did you receive this? Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hello, NoOp wrote on 2011-03-10 06.10: No idea no real preference other than the ablity for the user to login and modify their profile settings subscribe/unsubscribe. That said I Which settings do you want to user to change? Basically, only his address as well as the subscription type, or anything else? find it hard to believe that you couldn't have mailman accounts for each list. Ubuntu have many: Yes. But it would *not* be possible to have something like @de.libreoffice.org, @it.libreoffice.org or @us.libreoffice.org then, at least not as we have it now. Look at the Ubuntu page. All lists reside at the same subdomain. Quoting from the Mailman wiki: The recommended method to support multiple virtual hosts without list name collisions with Mailman 2.1.x is to run a separate Mailman instance for each virtual host. This would mean we have about 20-30 different Mailman instances... Then my recommendation is to find something else, as the inability of the user to manager their list settings is a problem. If you have a good proposal, let me know. We, however, tried every solution, and mlmmj seemed best. What we, and that's where I agree with you, need is some web interface that helps users in managing their subscriptions. It doesn't if it doesn't allow the user to modify their mail list preferences settings, and/or unsubscribe/subscribe without jumping through hoops. Ok, then let me know what is so complicated? Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org = Then you receive an e-mail how it works. So, again, what is complicated about that? And that is relevent to my questions how? It explains why some people have problems in unsubscribing. If they click the + link and Google silently ignores it, of course you cannot unsubscribe then without manual interacton. Perhaps it is because by the time the reach point of unsubscribing to the list(s) that they don't want to read? Don't know, but if the unsubscribe/subscribe information were posted on the website mail list area maybe they could instead be referred to that instead of some special email? If someone comes up with such a page, I am happy to add them to the footer. But my bet is, people would act the same way. It's no different to my experience with OOo, the amount of people having issues with mailing lists is not that small. No matter what you do. How about tagging moderated messages so that subscribed users know that the post is from a unsubscribed poster and has been forwarded by a moderator? It's rather simple: just as a [Moderated] tag to the subject of the message. As said, we would have to iplement that ourselves. So, if there's a volunteer, willing to work on the mlmmj source code, I am happy install a patch. Sadly, no mailing list system I know of provides that, but it would indeed be a great feature. Then if the mandate is to allow unsubscribed posts, *please* identify the post as such with a [Moderated] tag in the subject. As you may/or may not have witnessed on the OOo list over the past 5 years or so, this issue has been a subject of contention that raises it's ugly head at least once a month. The general consensus was to allow unsubscribed posters; the key problem was/is that there was/is no easy way to know if the post came from such. So folks send off a reply only to be told later that the time they took to respond fell on deaf ears because the OP was from someone not subscribed to the list. They then have to decide whether they wish to reforward their response to the Unsub, or just move on. I agree that this would be helpful, it just has to be developed, as no mailing list manager provides it out of the box. My take would be, btw, to add the information to the message body, in order to not break threading with a modified subject. Again, if someone wants to come up with a patch that does it, you're welcome! See http://mlmmj.org/bugs/bug.php?id=20 Why is Google even an issue, or brought up? I don't understand the comment. I see users on the user list that have no relation to gmail or Google. So something else must be broken in the process. From what I know, there exist three major problems, which are all outside our scope: 1. Google Mail archives e-mails one has sent to the lists, so people think their mail did not made it to the list. 2. Google Mail and Yahoo sometimes seem to have problems with the + addressing. Clear violation of the RFC. 3. Some French providers block our e-mails, for no obvious reason, and without replying to e-mails to the postmaster. Clear violation of the RFC, but seems to be better or even fixed now. These are the existing problems I know of, but there of course may be more. Is it a limitation for mlmmj, or can the instructions that are received in the email be posted on the website? Sure they can. If someone comes up with a website, I am happy to link to it in the footer. I just doubt it will help
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On 2011-03-10 6:08 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: Yes. But it would *not* be possible to have something like @de.libreoffice.org, @it.libreoffice.org or @us.libreoffice.org then, at least not as we have it now. Look at the Ubuntu page. All lists reside at the same subdomain. Quoting from the Mailman wiki: The recommended method to support multiple virtual hosts without list name collisions with Mailman 2.1.x is to run a separate Mailman instance for each virtual host. This would mean we have about 20-30 different Mailman instances... Mailman 3 will be solving this for good, but one alternative until it is released would be to identify each list in the listname itself rather than the domain, ie: Instead of: disc...@de.libreoffice.org disc...@it.libreoffice.org Just use: discuss...@libreoffice.org discuss...@libreoffice.org I mean, does it matter, *really*, whether the country designator is in the local or domain part? -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On 2011-03-09 5:10 AM, Bill Sippo wrote: A while back I joined the users mail list, and since then have been receiving in my in-box each day a large number of messages, more than I can handle, so I've been trying to unsubscribe. I'm using the information and unsubscribe link from the bottom of each message received; But it doesn't sound like you are READING the messages you receive back... The link at the bottom of each message is for INSTRUCTIONS ONLY... You must then follow the instructions to send the unsubscribe message. Personally, I think it is really dumb to do it this way - since 999% of all of the clicks on that link will be for unsubscribing, there should be first, a line that provides the unsubscribe message itself, then a SECOND line for full instructions, if you really do need instructions for something other than just unsubscribing... -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hi, Charles Marcus wrote on 2011-03-10 12.27: Mailman 3 will be solving this for good, but one alternative until it is Yep, heard about it, but no one knows when it will be released. :/ released would be to identify each list in the listname itself rather than the domain, ie: Instead of: disc...@de.libreoffice.org disc...@it.libreoffice.org Just use: discuss...@libreoffice.org discuss...@libreoffice.org We discussed that before going public, and most people wanted the first solution, to stay in compliance with the localized websites. I support that, as I found the mailman moderation stuff pretty annyoing (no moderation via e-mail, but mandatory web interface for larger tasks, taking more time) as well. Anyways, switching the mailing list system now or changing the addressess is probably a bad idea, so we should try to fix the issues in the current system :) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On 03/09/2011 02:07 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hello, Mailman has not been chosen mainly out of two reasons: 1. Moderation via e-mail is not comfortable. It especially requires one password shared among all moderators, which is inconvenient. Why is this inconvenient? -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hi Charles, *, Charles Marcus schrieb: On 03/09/2011 02:07 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: 1. Moderation via e-mail is not comfortable. It especially requires one password shared among all moderators, which is inconvenient. Why is this inconvenient? Shared password *never* is a good idea. You don't know, where they are and if You have to change the moderaters group - i.e. excluding some - for any reason, the change of password is obligatory and affects all active moderators. That's definitely inconvenient not only for the list admin. Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images (german version already started) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On 2011-03-10 6:52 AM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: Shared password *never* is a good idea. You don't know, where they are and if You have to change the moderaters group - i.e. excluding some - for any reason, the change of password is obligatory and affects all active moderators. Do you? You can simply remove the moderators email address from the web interface, and they can no longer moderate, even if they have the password, because they are no longer a moderator - same for Admins. That's definitely inconvenient not only for the list admin. I agree that separate passwords would be ideal, but as long as you can remove their status as moderator, is it really that big a deal? -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hi, Charles Marcus wrote on 2011-03-10 12.58: Do you? You can simply remove the moderators email address from the web interface, and they can no longer moderate, even if they have the password, because they are no longer a moderator - same for Admins. sure, they can - the logon in Mailman is solely with a password, so no matter if you get notified or not, you can always open the magic URL and look into the queue. I agree that separate passwords would be ideal, but as long as you can remove their status as moderator, is it really that big a deal? You cannot. Even if you remove the address, if they have the password, they can moderate. It's inconvenient also from a second point of view: Imagine you moderate three mailing lists. Some messages you want to moderate, others are spam and you don't want to moderate them through. With mlmmj, for the messages you want to moderate, you simply reply via e-mail, and those you don't want to moderate, you ignore; after a week or so, they vanish. With Mailman, you have to login to list #1, entering password, moderating the message. Then you login to list #2, entering the password (even if's the same, you are queried). Then you login to list #3, entering the password once again. In addition, with Mailman, you have to explicitly drop the messages you do not want to moderate through (like spam), as otherwise, you get nagged every day that there is something in the queue. That's what I would call inconvenient for our usage scenario. :-) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On 2011-03-10 7:16 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: sure, they can - the logon in Mailman is solely with a password, so no matter if you get notified or not, you can always open the magic URL and look into the queue. Dang, you're right, I forgot it only asks for password... Wonder if that can be changed... I'll go ask... -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 6:17 AM, NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net wrote: On 03/09/2011 06:16 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: ... And you mentioned that one could have learned from OOo lists: Ha, that is a good one. The OOo lists have explicit unsubscribe instructions in *every* footer, but still people complain about not knowing to unsubscribe. So having that in the footer will not help *at all* And you have experience on the OOo user list? The OOo user list is not the only list in the OOo project. . When you think you are qualified to share your expertise with us, without calling people stupid or ignorant, come back feel free to comment. They /are/ stupid, as they don't bother to read instructions. No excuse at all for this. They might be very intelligent otherwise, but when it comes to unsubscribing, they're too ignorant. /NEVER EVER/ has there been a technical problem with unsubscribing. It was *always* the user being too stupid to either mail the unubscribe address in the first place (they instead write stuff like STOP THIS, I DON'T WANT ANY MORE MAILS!!!, I'LL SUE YOU), or they're too dumb/stupid/ignorant to read the automatic reply asking for confirmation (i.e. another reply). The one situation where unsubscribing is difficult is when the reply asking for confirmation to unsubscribe is flagged as spam and thus not sorted to the user's inbox, but then again that's not the fault of the list-management. They are stupid/ignorant because they did receive an introductional mail with the various commands to unsubscribe or get help when they did subscribe. They throw away that information without reading it. And instead of asking nicely, they immediately start shouting on the list. I call this stupid and/or ignorant. The /only/ exception to this rule is * People not speaking english, those are excused. (OTOH they managed to subscribe to the list nevertheless, and that works the same way as unsubscribing would) Thinking of it, there's another exception: People trying to unsubscribe with an address they're not subscribed with, but those usually ask nicely before complaining/asking for help in a civilized manner. ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hi Florian, NoOp, *, Florian Effenberger schrieb: NoOp wrote on 2011-03-10 06.10: [..] If you have a good proposal, let me know. We, however, tried every solution, and mlmmj seemed best. +1 What we, and that's where I agree with you, need is some web interface that helps users in managing their subscriptions. I won't worry about that, as long as it ist *not* obligatory! One of the big advantages of the mail way of managing mailing list (un-)subscriptions is *not* to have one more account anywhere around. [..] Perhaps it is because by the time the reach point of unsubscribing to the list(s) that they don't want to read? Don't know, but if the unsubscribe/subscribe information were posted on the website mail list area maybe they could instead be referred to that instead of some special email? I wait for that link since January! No one was able to provide me with it up to now! see: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg04585.html [..] How about tagging moderated messages so that subscribed users know that the post is from a unsubscribed poster and has been forwarded by a moderator? It's rather simple: just as a [Moderated] tag to the subject of the message. As said, we would have to iplement that ourselves. So, if there's a volunteer, willing to work on the mlmmj source code, I am happy install a patch. Sadly, no mailing list system I know of provides that, but it would indeed be a great feature. See my mail to Marco: http://go.mail-archive.com/RjF-au8F7oa5W9Jc7Z9f2S2YwhA= In short saying: send autgenerated mail to nonsubscriber pointing to the archived thread of his question. Then if the mandate is to allow unsubscribed posts, *please* identify the post as such with a [Moderated] tag in the subject. As you may/or may not have witnessed on the OOo list over the past 5 years or so, this issue has been a subject of contention that raises it's ugly head at least once a month. The general consensus was to allow unsubscribed posters; the key problem was/is that there was/is no easy way to know if the post came from such. As Marko says in his Blog: don't bother valuable volunteers with that question at all. So folks send off a reply only to be told later that the time they took to respond fell on deaf ears because the OP was from someone not subscribed to the list. They then have to decide whether they wish to reforward their response to the Unsub, or just move on. I agree that this would be helpful, it just has to be developed, as no mailing list manager provides it out of the box. My take would be, btw, to add the information to the message body, in order to not break threading with a modified subject. Again, if someone wants to come up with a patch that does it, you're welcome! See http://mlmmj.org/bugs/bug.php?id=20 This from my point of view is one solution even if not my favorite. [..] Is it a limitation for mlmmj, or can the instructions that are received in the email be posted on the website? See above. I'm waiting just for the link - no matter whether alive or not - since weeks. [..] In a nutshell: Four things can help, and if someone works on them, that would be welcome 1. A website explaining the unsubscription mechanism 2. A web interface for moderators and users of the lists 3. A patch to tag moderated messages 4. A patch to improve the unsubscription mechanism, so that unsubscribe always unsubscribes you from everything, as long as you just have one type of list subscription 5. A mechanism informing not subscribed people, how to find the anwers themselves. Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images (german version already started) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
On 2011-03-10 8:09 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: or they're too dumb/stupid/ignorant to read the automatic reply asking for confirmation (i.e. another reply). The one situation where unsubscribing is difficult is when the reply asking for confirmation to unsubscribe is flagged as spam and thus not sorted to the user's inbox, but then again that's not the fault of the list-management. So change the default behavior... Make the confirmation email just that - a confirmation that an unsubscribe request has been made, and if they don't cancel the request within - what, 12? 24? hours, then the unsubscribe request is honored. -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues
Hi Charles, *, Charles Marcus schrieb: On 2011-03-10 8:09 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: The one situation where unsubscribing is difficult is when the reply asking for confirmation to unsubscribe is flagged as spam and thus not sorted to the user's inbox, but then again that's not the fault of the list-management. So change the default behavior... Make the confirmation email just that - a confirmation that an unsubscribe request has been made, and if they don't cancel the request within - what, 12? 24? hours, then the unsubscribe request is honored. Not a really good idea in my opinion, because anyone can unsubscribe You! In worst case, this enables the possibility of an unsubscription war. Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images (german version already started) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
