Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Jody Garnett]

Thanks Even I was going to try and circle back to this today.

We do have the wish to list product names, notably for supported formats
and interoperability. The http://osgeo.getinteractive.nl/projects/geoserver/
page lists for example:

*Server data from a variety of data sources*
Vector: Shapefiles, External WFS, PostGIS, ArcSDE, DB2, Oracle Spatial,
MySql, SQL Server and more!
Raster: GeoTiff, JPG and PNG (with world file), image pyramid, GDAL
formats, Image Mosaic, Oracle GeoRaster, NetCDF


We do have a legitimate reason to use product names, but there is reason to
be careful/respectful when doing so. In the above list we should probably
add SQLServer® for example, and a footnote to the page.

--
Jody Garnett

On 21 September 2017 at 12:10, Even Rouault 
wrote:

> On jeudi 21 septembre 2017 11:20:54 CEST Jeffrey Johnson wrote:
>
> > We have that kind of page here
>
> > http://osgeo.getinteractive.nl/about/migrate-open-source-gis/ ... The
>
> > link was removed from the hero area when Steve Feldman changed this in
>
> > Boston, so there is no content there now.
>
> >
>
> > Are we not willing to even mention the names of these proprietary
>
> > products for fear of 'promoting' them? Or do we want to present the
>
> > user coming from outside our community some context about which open
>
> > source projects are an analogue or replacement for the proprietary
>
> > products they are already familiar with? Thats the real question in my
>
> > mind.
>
>
>
> I cannot honestly think that anyone would seriously believe we are
> promoting
>
> proprietary software if they are mentionned under a "Migrate from" label.
> But
>
> the point here about if we can legally use other product names (and if that
>
> is a use of a trademark) in that context is a good one. They are probably
> rules
>
> and good practices to follow in doing so, which can depend on juridictions
> (probably
>
> US law applies here if the site is hosted in the US).
>
> Quickly researching about the topic leads to this article:
>
> https://moz.com/blog/comparative-advertsing-can-i-
> talk-about-my-competitor-on-my-website
>
> The bottom line is that there are legal ways of comparing to a competitor
> (is a
>
> "Migrate from " mention considered as comparative advertising is
> another questio),
>
> but you can still be sued even if you follow the rules, so it is a matter
> of
>
> appreciating the benefit vs the risk. Funnily they recommand to explictly
> mention
>
> that you're not affiliated with the other product owner! (I guess that's
> in the
>
> same vein as the "Caution: Contents Hot" mention on coffee cups ;-))
>
>
>
> I had a quick look at https://www.libreoffice.org/ to see if they for
> example
>
> mentionned MS Office or Google docs. The only mention of MS Office I could
> find
>
> is at the bottom of
>
> https://www.libreoffice.org/discover/libreoffice/ and it is a link to an
> external
>
> site (they do mention the compatibility with Microsft Word, Excel,
> *formats*,
>
> but that's a bit different than comparing to the products themselves).
>
> On http://www.openoffice.org/ similar situation, only mention of MS
> formats,
>
> and for compraisons with MS itself, links to externals reviews from
>
> http://www.openoffice.org/product/reviews.html
>
>
>
> Sandro mentionned GIMP's "like Photoshop, only better" motto but on
>
> https://www.gimp.org/ no mention of Photoshop I could find
>
>
>
> If you go on http://www.pitneybowes.com/us/location-intelligence/
> geographic-information-systems/mapinfo-pro.html,
>
> no mention of ESRI
>
> Same on http://www.hexagongeospatial.com/products/power-portfolio/
> erdas-imagine
>
>
>
> Just trying to decrease the emotional level of the debate with facts ;-)
>
>
>
> --
>
> Spatialys - Geospatial professional services
>
> http://www.spatialys.com
>
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Sandro Santilli]

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 09:10:52PM +0200, Even Rouault wrote:

> Sandro mentionned GIMP's "like Photoshop, only better" motto but on
> https://www.gimp.org/ no mention of Photoshop I could find

They must have received a call from lawyers.
But I'm sure I didn't dream that motto, or if I did, I was not the
only one: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~srv/tools.html

--strk;
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Stephen Woodbridge]

I just got off the phone with a client that is interested in migrating 
to open source tools. They problem is they don't know where to start. 
They know what proprietary tools they are using, they know what features 
they are using, they know about OSGeo, but rapidly get lost in all the 
projects and what they do and how they might be used to replace what 
they have.


They need :
* a simple mapping from proprietary to FOSS tools, so they can start 
learn more about which tools to investigate.
* simple recipes and direction to get them started, ie: lower the cost 
of entrance.
* list of resources, like mailing lists, where to download, what 
tutorials and/books are available or experts in the various tools they 
are interested.


We need to make this easy for people that are not familiar with FOSS to 
easily find their way into our community. They want to educate 
themselves a little before engaging the community.


I often act as a compass and help guide them to get started, but I only 
know part of the pie.


So migration guides would be good. Some form of mapping products to 
projects would be very useful.


I like the format of Choose Open Source and I think it covers a lot of 
these needs.


-Steve

On 9/21/2017 3:00 PM, Jody Garnett wrote:
Thanks that is a great example - this is the roll I hope that 
http://osgeo.getinteractive.nl/choose-a-project/ 
 will play (now that 
is actually working correctly).


I am happy to try an experiment and see if this is sufficient, I just do 
not want to lose track of the vision that we are helping non-community 
members connect with open source.


I am sorry this discussion started over links, which look to of been 
added to the beta website by mistake. I do not mind naming competitor 
products, in case studies, migration guides, or "even" on project pages. 
In the case of project pages it is up to each project steering committee 
what they want to do.



--
Jody Garnett

On 21 September 2017 at 08:45, Daniel Kastl > wrote:


I think "Switch2osm" is a very good example how to help migrating to
non-proprietary tools: https://switch2osm.org/
I quickly went through their site and as far as I could see,
competitor names only appear in case studies.
Maybe we could have "switch2foss" in a similar way.

It's a very good idea to help new users to find open alternatives to
the proprietary software they're using right now.
I agree with many here, that this doesn't require to provide links
to them.

Best regards,
Daniel





On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Gert-Jan van der Weijden (OSGeo.nl)
> wrote:

As a regular user of proprietary GIS software (ArcGIS, FME,
Oracle Spatial etcetera) I can assure that it is very valuable
to have some sort of guidance in the diversity of the FOSS
landscape.

I agree that "similar proprietary products" isn't the right
label. However, instead of the proposed "migratte from" (which
sound like a complete migration plan) I'd suggest the label
"comparable proprietary software".

Kind regards,

Gert-Jan



María Arias de Reyna schreef op 21-09-2017 8:30:

On 20 September 2017 at 02:41, Helmut Kudrnovsky
> wrote:


Dear OSGeo community

I want to bring you a discussion on a github
ticket about linking to
"similar proprietary products" [1] to your
attention.

My comment there:

"I support and concur with Venka that the item
"Similar Proprietary
Products" should be removed. There isn't only
one proprietary GIS software
out there, there are several others. IMHO such
comparisons may be part of
e.g. a reviewed scientific paper/elaboration,
where our OSGeo projects - if
they want to - may link to. I see no added value
for OSGeo to serve such
links. As already elsewhere mentioned by me,
reciprocity is the key if such
items are listed, but I can't see this happen. "

I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to
help our OSGeo projects
improving on every level (e.g. documentation,
reach out, testing, etc) is
the key rather than linking to proprietary
software. One of such

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Angelos Tzotsos]

Hi,

The last 3 sentences of this statement make me worry for more future 
conflicts.


What happens when the Marketing Committee (which has the mandate to 
outreach for OSGeo and create the new web site) conflicts with the new 
Website Management Team (part of Systems Administration Committee) on 
the content of the web site?
Which one of these teams gets to decide if the site focuses on our 
community (us) or on bringing in new users (outreach)? Do-ocracy is not 
an option in this case, both groups are willing to act.
Going through the by-laws [1] once again, I see that the only conflict 
resolution process we have in place is a Board resolution.


Just to be clear: I am not against forming the "Website Management 
Team", just trying to be pro-active.


I suggest discussing this matter at the next Board meeting [2]

Best,
Angelos

[1] http://www.osgeo.org/content/foundation/incorporation/bylaws.html
[2] https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Board_Meeting_2017-10-05


On 09/21/2017 02:25 PM, Jeff McKenna wrote:
I am setting up an OSGeo "Website Management Team" now, to help bring 
the focus on the OSGeo community, manage the website (and WordPress 
theme), security, backups, content etc, and will propose this to 
OSGeo's Systems committee and OSGeo Board; for the longterm 
maintenance of the website.  I imagine during this maintenance process 
we will be removing these unnecessary promotions, and focus on the 
OSGeo community (us). We'll leave promotion of other things for those 
with the big money ha, as they have the big funding for their 
products, as you mentioned.  We will focus on the OSGeo community.


--
Angelos Tzotsos, PhD
Charter Member
Open Source Geospatial Foundation
http://users.ntua.gr/tzotsos

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Even Rouault]

On jeudi 21 septembre 2017 11:20:54 CEST Jeffrey Johnson wrote:
> We have that kind of page here
> http://osgeo.getinteractive.nl/about/migrate-open-source-gis/ ... The
> link was removed from the hero area when Steve Feldman changed this in
> Boston, so there is no content there now.
> 
> Are we not willing to even mention the names of these proprietary
> products for fear of 'promoting' them? Or do we want to present the
> user coming from outside our community some context about which open
> source projects are an analogue or replacement for the proprietary
> products they are already familiar with? Thats the real question in my
> mind.

I cannot honestly think that anyone would seriously believe we are promoting
proprietary software if they are mentionned under a "Migrate from" label. But
the point here about if we can legally use other product names (and if that
is a use of a trademark) in that context is a good one. They are probably rules
and good practices to follow in doing so, which can depend on juridictions 
(probably
US law applies here if the site is hosted in the US). 
Quickly researching about the topic leads to this article:
https://moz.com/blog/comparative-advertsing-can-i-talk-about-my-competitor-on-my-website
The bottom line is that there are legal ways of comparing to a competitor (is a
"Migrate from " mention considered as comparative advertising is another 
questio),
but you can still be sued even if you follow the rules, so it is a matter of
appreciating the benefit vs the risk. Funnily they recommand to explictly 
mention
that you're not affiliated with the other product owner! (I guess that's in the
same vein as the "Caution: Contents Hot" mention on coffee cups ;-))

I had a quick look at https://www.libreoffice.org/ to see if they for example
mentionned MS Office or Google docs. The only mention of MS Office I could find
is at the bottom of
https://www.libreoffice.org/discover/libreoffice/ and it is a link to an 
external
site (they do mention the compatibility with Microsft Word, Excel, *formats*,
but that's a bit different than comparing to the products themselves).
On http://www.openoffice.org/ similar situation, only mention of MS formats,
and for compraisons with MS itself, links to externals reviews from
http://www.openoffice.org/product/reviews.html

Sandro mentionned GIMP's "like Photoshop, only better" motto but on
https://www.gimp.org/ no mention of Photoshop I could find

If you go on 
http://www.pitneybowes.com/us/location-intelligence/geographic-information-systems/mapinfo-pro.html,
no mention of ESRI
Same on http://www.hexagongeospatial.com/products/power-portfolio/erdas-imagine

Just trying to decrease the emotional level of the debate with facts ;-)

-- 
Spatialys - Geospatial professional services
http://www.spatialys.com

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Jody Garnett]

Thanks that is a great example - this is the roll I hope that http://osgeo.
getinteractive.nl/choose-a-project/ will play (now that is actually working
correctly).

I am happy to try an experiment and see if this is sufficient, I just do
not want to lose track of the vision that we are helping non-community
members connect with open source.

I am sorry this discussion started over links, which look to of been added
to the beta website by mistake. I do not mind naming competitor products,
in case studies, migration guides, or "even" on project pages. In the case
of project pages it is up to each project steering committee what they want
to do.


--
Jody Garnett

On 21 September 2017 at 08:45, Daniel Kastl  wrote:

> I think "Switch2osm" is a very good example how to help migrating to
> non-proprietary tools: https://switch2osm.org/
> I quickly went through their site and as far as I could see, competitor
> names only appear in case studies.
> Maybe we could have "switch2foss" in a similar way.
>
> It's a very good idea to help new users to find open alternatives to the
> proprietary software they're using right now.
> I agree with many here, that this doesn't require to provide links to
> them.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Gert-Jan van der Weijden (OSGeo.nl) <
> gert-...@osgeo.nl> wrote:
>
>> As a regular user of proprietary GIS software (ArcGIS, FME, Oracle
>> Spatial etcetera) I can assure that it is very valuable to have some sort
>> of guidance in the diversity of the FOSS landscape.
>>
>> I agree that "similar proprietary products" isn't the right label.
>> However, instead of the proposed "migratte from" (which sound like a
>> complete migration plan) I'd suggest the label "comparable proprietary
>> software".
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Gert-Jan
>>
>>
>>
>> María Arias de Reyna schreef op 21-09-2017 8:30:
>>
>> On 20 September 2017 at 02:41, Helmut Kudrnovsky  wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear OSGeo community
>>
>> I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to
>> "similar proprietary products" [1] to your attention.
>>
>> My comment there:
>>
>> "I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary
>> Products" should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS
>> software
>> out there, there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be
>> part of
>> e.g. a reviewed scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo
>> projects - if
>> they want to - may link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve
>> such
>> links. As already elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key
>> if such
>> items are listed, but I can't see this happen. "
>>
>> I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects
>> improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing,
>> etc) is
>> the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such
>> opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to
>> produce
>> nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc.
>> based on
>> tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the
>> young who
>> will be our OSGeo's future.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Helmut
>> OSGeo charter member
>>
>> [1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100
>> [2] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2017-September/036
>> 217.html
>> ___
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>> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
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>>
>
>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On my opinion, it makes sense to show relation between propietary and
>>> free and open software. Just because we want to people to migrate to
>>> free and open source software, so it is good if they can search for
>>> the software they are currently using to know what software will they
>>> use. It makes sense, it makes life easier on migrations.
>>>
>>> Said this, I prefer the "Migrate from" label much better. And sure, no
>>> link to the product, just the name. Why would we need a link? If they
>>> don't know what that software is, the information is useless to them.
>>> If they already know what that software is, the information is
>>> redundant. So having a name is fine, having a link is nonsense.
>>>
>>> Is "Migrate from" label aggresive? Not at all. We are OsGeo, we are
>>> promoting FLOSS. Promoting FLOSS means we are encouraging people to
>>> move from propietary to open. That is our philosophy, that is our
>>> motto. If propietary software feels bad because we follow our goals...
>>> well, then maybe they should stop promoting their own software too
>>> because that makes me feel bad.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> María.
>>> ___
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> 

[OSGeo-Discuss] Kickoff meeting (IRC) for the Code-in

[Jeff McKenna]

Following Madi's announcement on the Google Code-in 
http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/Google-Code-In-GCI-2017-just-announced-And-we-want-to-participate-td5335036.html 
we're having a kickoff meeting on IRC this coming Monday.  Please join 
if you have questions and ideas for tasks for the students, or if you 
just want to be a mentor.  It's gonna be fun!  A nice way to share our 
passion with young energetic students.


Meeting time and connection details at: 
https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Google_Code_In_2017#Kickoff_.28virtual.29_meeting


Exact time: 
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?year=2017=09=25=20=0


-jeff

--
Jeff McKenna
President Emeritus, OSGeo Foundation
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna




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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Jody Garnett]

Comments inline:

> Thank you Ben, this is absolutely correct: we have an amazing vibrant
> community, and we need a front-end website that fosters and promotes OSGeo
> projects (especially those in OSGeo incubation as well as OSGeo Community
> projects) and OSGeo initiatives such as the Summer of Code. Period.  Full
> stop.  This is what our community is good at, and why we are so desired
> today.  From experience I can tell you that this struggle, that is being
> put forth here, will just separate our community (you can see it is
> already) and make the community weaker.
>

I am not sure I see this as a struggle Jeff.

Outreach will not weaken our community, it is literally what our community
is for - to advocate for open source. Our vision is: *Empower everyone with
open source geospatial*

If our community focuses only ourselves we will not be meeting our
objective.

Let us help our OSGeo community grow.   Don't worry about competing
> organizations (trust me they are fine, they have big money for marketing
> and teams of people working on that), just focus on OSGeo and our wonderful
> community.
>

I don't think anyone was worried about competing organizations having a
hard time :)

We are worried about individuals that have only ever had a chance to hear
from proprietary software. We want these individuals to have a chance to
hear from us about a better approach to geospatial technology -
specifically to hear about our projects and the benefits of not only using
open source but being part of an open source community.

I am setting up an OSGeo "Website Management Team" now, to help bring the
> focus on the OSGeo community, manage the website (and WordPress theme),
> security, backups, content etc, and will propose this to OSGeo's Systems
> committee and OSGeo Board; for the longterm maintenance of the website.  I
> imagine during this maintenance process we will be removing these
> unnecessary promotions, and focus on the OSGeo community (us). We'll leave
> promotion of other things for those with the big money ha, as they have the
> big funding for their products, as you mentioned.  We will focus on the
> OSGeo community.
>

Jeff we kind of got stuck on this one, the SAC motion to host the beta
website is waiting on your proposal. I assume you got busy with the CRO
responsibilities, do you know when you will be available with a proposal
for SAC to consider?

I would kindly ask you to go over the though behind the website content - I
do not know specifically what you are referring to as unnecessary. If you
are talking about pivoting the website to focus on "us" rather than
promotion and outreach then I am really sad and feel like you have missed
the point of the exercise.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Jody Garnett]

Thanks Ben, and mentioned above that is why these project pages lead with a
team picture.

Maria offered similar words yesterday. I really like the idea of
emphasizing this aspect on the "what is opensource" page.

Outreach to people who are not part of our community is a challenge; one of
the nice ideas (wish I had the quote) was that people try open source
software because the price is free; we want them to stay because of the
freedom. The opportunity to join the community is a big benefit of OSGeo -
but we should honestly recognize that it is intimidating. The local
chapters is our key way to make this less intimidating and more personal
and supportive.






--
Jody Garnett

On 21 September 2017 at 04:02, Ben Caradoc-Davies  wrote:

> On 21/09/17 19:54, María Arias de Reyna wrote:
>
>> In fact, publishing blog posts comparing closed and FLOSS is also very
>> helpful. If you are doubting what kind of software to use, a good
>> comparison with table feature comparisons is very handy But that
>> should be outside the project page, because we are not begging for
>> users. We are strong projects on our own, we don't need to keep
>> continuously comparing to the closed alternatives for users to know
>> what we do.
>>
>
> Uplifting tweet of the week:
>
> "Jon Kuperman‏ @jkup
> Stop treating open source like a product you purchased and start treating
> it like a team you belong to."
> https://twitter.com/jkup/status/909887066103676928
>
> Referring to proprietary GIS on the OSGeo website risks misleading users
> that OSGeo projects are just competing products. We offer something that
> proprietary GIS never can: the opportunity to join a community of peers.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> --
> Ben Caradoc-Davies 
> Director
> Transient Software Limited 
> New Zealand
>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Mateusz Loskot]

> On 09/21/2017 06:45 PM, Daniel Kastl wrote:
>
> I think "Switch2osm" is a very good example how to help migrating to
> non-proprietary tools: https://switch2osm.org/
> I quickly went through their site and as far as I could see, competitor
> names only appear in case studies.

What about names and links to providers:
https://switch2osm.org/providers/

Are they all pure open source or some are open core or
perhaps some just offer SaaS based on completely closed software.
Perhaps they are just buzzwording [1] and perhaps they are not, who knows?
Can I trust them about what their SaaS actually runs?
The fact that a company has hundreds of repos on GitHub does not make
it a pure FOSS company.

I've been part of OSGeo since its early post-birth times and
I've never seen a single person here in the Community having slightest problems
with listing (and linking) proprietary vendors as users, contributors, sponsors.

Mind you (all), Google, ESRI etc. are sponsors of OSGeo major event, the FOSS4G.

Mind you (all), tons of OSGeo LOCs was/is funded with monies streamed
from proprietary vendors.
Let's update the next release installer of PostGIS and label such
non-kosher features like PostGIS Raster to allow FOSS-purist skip
them.

The whole thread feels like an internal scramble for external witch hunt.

[1] http://blog.kathyreid.id.au/2010/07/19/open-source-in-name-only/

Best regards,
-- 
Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Jeffrey Johnson]

We have that kind of page here
http://osgeo.getinteractive.nl/about/migrate-open-source-gis/ ... The
link was removed from the hero area when Steve Feldman changed this in
Boston, so there is no content there now.

Are we not willing to even mention the names of these proprietary
products for fear of 'promoting' them? Or do we want to present the
user coming from outside our community some context about which open
source projects are an analogue or replacement for the proprietary
products they are already familiar with? Thats the real question in my
mind.

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Angelos Tzotsos  wrote:
> Thank you Daniel,
> +1
>
>
> On 09/21/2017 06:45 PM, Daniel Kastl wrote:
>
> I think "Switch2osm" is a very good example how to help migrating to
> non-proprietary tools: https://switch2osm.org/
> I quickly went through their site and as far as I could see, competitor
> names only appear in case studies.
> Maybe we could have "switch2foss" in a similar way.
>
> It's a very good idea to help new users to find open alternatives to the
> proprietary software they're using right now.
> I agree with many here, that this doesn't require to provide links to them.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Gert-Jan van der Weijden (OSGeo.nl) <
> gert-...@osgeo.nl> wrote:
>
> As a regular user of proprietary GIS software (ArcGIS, FME, Oracle Spatial
> etcetera) I can assure that it is very valuable to have some sort of
> guidance in the diversity of the FOSS landscape.
>
> I agree that "similar proprietary products" isn't the right label.
> However, instead of the proposed "migratte from" (which sound like a
> complete migration plan) I'd suggest the label "comparable proprietary
> software".
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Gert-Jan
>
>
>
> María Arias de Reyna schreef op 21-09-2017 8:30:
>
> On 20 September 2017 at 02:41, Helmut Kudrnovsky  wrote:
>
> Dear OSGeo community
>
> I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to
> "similar proprietary products" [1] to your attention.
>
> My comment there:
>
> "I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary
> Products" should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS
> software
> out there, there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part
> of
> e.g. a reviewed scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects
> - if
> they want to - may link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve
> such
> links. As already elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if
> such
> items are listed, but I can't see this happen. "
>
> I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects
> improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc)
> is
> the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such
> opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to
> produce
> nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc.
> based on
> tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the
> young who
> will be our OSGeo's future.
>
> Kind regards
> Helmut
> OSGeo charter member
>
> [1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100
> [2] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2017-September/
> 036217.html
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
> Hi,
>
> On my opinion, it makes sense to show relation between propietary and
> free and open software. Just because we want to people to migrate to
> free and open source software, so it is good if they can search for
> the software they are currently using to know what software will they
> use. It makes sense, it makes life easier on migrations.
>
> Said this, I prefer the "Migrate from" label much better. And sure, no
> link to the product, just the name. Why would we need a link? If they
> don't know what that software is, the information is useless to them.
> If they already know what that software is, the information is
> redundant. So having a name is fine, having a link is nonsense.
>
> Is "Migrate from" label aggresive? Not at all. We are OsGeo, we are
> promoting FLOSS. Promoting FLOSS means we are encouraging people to
> move from propietary to open. That is our philosophy, that is our
> motto. If propietary software feels bad because we follow our goals...
> well, then maybe they should stop promoting their own software too
> because that makes me feel bad.
>
> Regards,
> María.
> ___
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>
> ___
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>
>
>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Angelos Tzotsos]

Thank you Daniel,
+1

On 09/21/2017 06:45 PM, Daniel Kastl wrote:

I think "Switch2osm" is a very good example how to help migrating to
non-proprietary tools: https://switch2osm.org/
I quickly went through their site and as far as I could see, competitor
names only appear in case studies.
Maybe we could have "switch2foss" in a similar way.

It's a very good idea to help new users to find open alternatives to the
proprietary software they're using right now.
I agree with many here, that this doesn't require to provide links to them.

Best regards,
Daniel





On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Gert-Jan van der Weijden (OSGeo.nl) <
gert-...@osgeo.nl> wrote:


As a regular user of proprietary GIS software (ArcGIS, FME, Oracle Spatial
etcetera) I can assure that it is very valuable to have some sort of
guidance in the diversity of the FOSS landscape.

I agree that "similar proprietary products" isn't the right label.
However, instead of the proposed "migratte from" (which sound like a
complete migration plan) I'd suggest the label "comparable proprietary
software".

Kind regards,

Gert-Jan



María Arias de Reyna schreef op 21-09-2017 8:30:

On 20 September 2017 at 02:41, Helmut Kudrnovsky  wrote:

Dear OSGeo community

I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to
"similar proprietary products" [1] to your attention.

My comment there:

"I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary
Products" should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS
software
out there, there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part
of
e.g. a reviewed scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects
- if
they want to - may link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve
such
links. As already elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if
such
items are listed, but I can't see this happen. "

I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects
improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc)
is
the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such
opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to
produce
nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc.
based on
tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the
young who
will be our OSGeo's future.

Kind regards
Helmut
OSGeo charter member

[1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100
[2] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2017-September/
036217.html
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Hi,

On my opinion, it makes sense to show relation between propietary and
free and open software. Just because we want to people to migrate to
free and open source software, so it is good if they can search for
the software they are currently using to know what software will they
use. It makes sense, it makes life easier on migrations.

Said this, I prefer the "Migrate from" label much better. And sure, no
link to the product, just the name. Why would we need a link? If they
don't know what that software is, the information is useless to them.
If they already know what that software is, the information is
redundant. So having a name is fine, having a link is nonsense.

Is "Migrate from" label aggresive? Not at all. We are OsGeo, we are
promoting FLOSS. Promoting FLOSS means we are encouraging people to
move from propietary to open. That is our philosophy, that is our
motto. If propietary software feels bad because we follow our goals...
well, then maybe they should stop promoting their own software too
because that makes me feel bad.

Regards,
María.
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Angelos Tzotsos, PhD
Charter Member
Open Source Geospatial Foundation
http://users.ntua.gr/tzotsos

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] service interruption

[Jeff McKenna]

Services are back online.

-jeff



On 2017-09-21 1:57 PM, Jeff McKenna wrote:
There is an issue at our hosting at OSU Open Source Lab, affecting 
osgeo.org, trac, wiki instances.  They are tackling now.


-jeff

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Angelos Tzotsos]

Hi all,

This is exactly what I had in mind.
We cannot really worry that people might think we are promoting 
proprietary software, that is not the case.
We can worry that someone might find a way to sue us for using their 
brand in our promotional materials
Don't forget that "Microsoft loves Linux" these days but they still 
threat to sue whoever does not pay "Android fees" to them


Best,
Angelos

On 09/21/2017 11:28 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote:

Hi all,

Let’s go back to the legal issues. ESRI provides its clear guidelines about how 
to use its products name, web link and logo here: 
http://www.esri.com/legal/weblink-logoagreement. Please read through the 
license agreement. I don’t think we can meet all the terms and conditions 
provided by ESRI.

Cheers,
신상희
---
Shin, Sanghee
Gaia3D, Inc. - The GeoSpatial Company
www.gaia3d.com

보낸 사람: Sandro Santilli
보낸 날짜: 2017년 9월 21일 목요일 오후 5:19
받는 사람: Jody Garnett
참조: OSGeo Discussions; Helmut Kudrnovsky; OSGeo-Marketing
제목: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 08:33:05PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:


How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just
displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It would
be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to the project
page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from MapInfo.

It's different degrees of annoyance. I guess a brand-less and
link-less list of names of proprietary products would not be too
"offensive" for me (assuming spam filtering lets it pass) but I'd
still prefer an hidden keyword. Something that you never see written
but is recognized by the search engine to give you back a similar
software: you search for  you get .

The "like Photoshop, only better" motto I like even when it contains
the name because it explicitly bashes it :)

--strk;
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Charter Member
Open Source Geospatial Foundation
http://users.ntua.gr/tzotsos

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[OSGeo-Discuss] service interruption

[Jeff McKenna]

There is an issue at our hosting at OSU Open Source Lab, affecting 
osgeo.org, trac, wiki instances.  They are tackling now.


-jeff
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Daniel Kastl]

I think "Switch2osm" is a very good example how to help migrating to
non-proprietary tools: https://switch2osm.org/
I quickly went through their site and as far as I could see, competitor
names only appear in case studies.
Maybe we could have "switch2foss" in a similar way.

It's a very good idea to help new users to find open alternatives to the
proprietary software they're using right now.
I agree with many here, that this doesn't require to provide links to them.

Best regards,
Daniel





On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Gert-Jan van der Weijden (OSGeo.nl) <
gert-...@osgeo.nl> wrote:

> As a regular user of proprietary GIS software (ArcGIS, FME, Oracle Spatial
> etcetera) I can assure that it is very valuable to have some sort of
> guidance in the diversity of the FOSS landscape.
>
> I agree that "similar proprietary products" isn't the right label.
> However, instead of the proposed "migratte from" (which sound like a
> complete migration plan) I'd suggest the label "comparable proprietary
> software".
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Gert-Jan
>
>
>
> María Arias de Reyna schreef op 21-09-2017 8:30:
>
> On 20 September 2017 at 02:41, Helmut Kudrnovsky  wrote:

>
> Dear OSGeo community
>
> I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to
> "similar proprietary products" [1] to your attention.
>
> My comment there:
>
> "I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary
> Products" should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS
> software
> out there, there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part
> of
> e.g. a reviewed scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects
> - if
> they want to - may link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve
> such
> links. As already elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if
> such
> items are listed, but I can't see this happen. "
>
> I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects
> improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc)
> is
> the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such
> opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to
> produce
> nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc.
> based on
> tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the
> young who
> will be our OSGeo's future.
>
> Kind regards
> Helmut
> OSGeo charter member
>
> [1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100
> [2] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2017-September/
> 036217.html
> ___
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> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
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>


>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On my opinion, it makes sense to show relation between propietary and
>> free and open software. Just because we want to people to migrate to
>> free and open source software, so it is good if they can search for
>> the software they are currently using to know what software will they
>> use. It makes sense, it makes life easier on migrations.
>>
>> Said this, I prefer the "Migrate from" label much better. And sure, no
>> link to the product, just the name. Why would we need a link? If they
>> don't know what that software is, the information is useless to them.
>> If they already know what that software is, the information is
>> redundant. So having a name is fine, having a link is nonsense.
>>
>> Is "Migrate from" label aggresive? Not at all. We are OsGeo, we are
>> promoting FLOSS. Promoting FLOSS means we are encouraging people to
>> move from propietary to open. That is our philosophy, that is our
>> motto. If propietary software feels bad because we follow our goals...
>> well, then maybe they should stop promoting their own software too
>> because that makes me feel bad.
>>
>> Regards,
>> María.
>> ___
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
> ___
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>



-- 
Georepublic UG & Georepublic Japan
eMail: daniel.ka...@georepublic.de
Web: https://georepublic.info
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Add your avatar to wiki pages

[Jeff McKenna]

On 2017-09-21 10:16 AM, Sandro Santilli wrote:

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 09:42:48AM -0300, Jeff McKenna wrote:

Hi everyone!

Have some geek fun and magically add your avatar (from Gravatar/Libravatar
services) to your OSGeo wiki pages.  The wiki syntax is:




Actually this is even easier with the updated User template [1]:
just fill in the "Email" field and, i you didn't explicitly
specify a "Photo" field, the "Email" field will be used to retrive
an Avatar using the "Libravatar" protocol, which implies:

  - Ask the DNS database if your mail domain has an associated
avatar service, and use that if so (it is the case for me)

  - Failing the above, ask libravatar.org for the avatar associated
to your email fingerprint (you can upload a picture there:
https://www.libravatar.org/)

  - If you hadn't uploaded a picture on libravatar.org, it will
fallback to gravatar (some of you may know gravatar from
elsewhere)

NOTE: the same process above is the one used to display avatars
for Gogs users here: https://git.osgeo.org/gogs/explore/users/

The idea of "libre avatar" is that you can be in control of
serving your own avatar.

[1] https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Template:OSGeo_Member

--strk;




In action as part of the Code Sprint wiki too: 
https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Code_Sprint_2018#Participants :)


-jeff


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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul)]

All,

I’ve been following this thread and this does seem like a good way to address 
most if not all the thoughts.

Another side to this would be in the ability to let the user(s) add to the 
keyword list of “other” geo products out there, whether FOSS or Prop.   It 
would allow for a useability matrix to build up over time as well, maybe even 
going so far as to grab a capabilities list of some sort from the users and 
consequently a mechanism for targeting new cabailities in the software being 
developed under the OSGeo banner based on these user capabilities/needs and a 
derived capability matrix.

bobb


On Sep 21, 2017, at 4:04 AM, Venkatesh Raghavan 
> wrote:

Dear All,

If the aim is only to help new users who are not aware of
Free and Open Source Geospatial Software, it could be
better to have a dedicated page which allows new user
to input keywords (e.g. the present software they are using,
of the OGC standards compliance they are looking for etc.)
and returning the results pointing to appropriate OSGeo
software).

If I understood correctly, I think this is what Sandro has been
suggesting and I like this approach.

As I already commented on the github ticket 1], I do not think
it is necessary to have an item such as "similar proprietary software"
or "Migrate From XXX" (also, we should rather propose "Migration *form* YYY to 
Free and Open Source
tool", where YYY would be the user input keyword).

Also, some of the names of Proprietary products are registered as trademarks,
and it could be better to avoid using these names directly on the OSGeo website.

Best

Venka

[1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100

On 9/21/2017 5:15 PM, Sandro Santilli wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 08:33:05PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:

How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just
displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It would
be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to the project
page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from MapInfo.
It's different degrees of annoyance. I guess a brand-less and
link-less list of names of proprietary products would not be too
"offensive" for me (assuming spam filtering lets it pass) but I'd
still prefer an hidden keyword. Something that you never see written
but is recognized by the search engine to give you back a similar
software: you search for  you get .

The "like Photoshop, only better" motto I like even when it contains
the name because it explicitly bashes it :)

--strk;
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Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there 
is nothing left to take away.
—Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Venkatesh Raghavan]

Hi Ben,

Many thanks for your inspiring email and for
bringing the focus back to the community.

As Jeff has also elucidated, the greatest strength of
the OSGeo Foundation is the community that all
of us have helped nurture.

Ben, I eagerly look forward to welcoming you as  as OSGeo
Charter Member [1].

Best

Venka

[1] https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/New_Member_Nominations_2017


On 9/21/2017 8:25 PM, Jeff McKenna wrote:

On 2017-09-21 8:02 AM, Ben Caradoc-Davies wrote:

On 21/09/17 19:54, María Arias de Reyna wrote:

In fact, publishing blog posts comparing closed and FLOSS is also very
helpful. If you are doubting what kind of software to use, a good
comparison with table feature comparisons is very handy But that
should be outside the project page, because we are not begging for
users. We are strong projects on our own, we don't need to keep
continuously comparing to the closed alternatives for users to know
what we do.


Uplifting tweet of the week:

"Jon Kuperman‏ @jkup
Stop treating open source like a product you purchased and start 
treating it like a team you belong to."

https://twitter.com/jkup/status/909887066103676928

Referring to proprietary GIS on the OSGeo website risks misleading 
users that OSGeo projects are just competing products. We offer 
something that proprietary GIS never can: the opportunity to join a 
community of peers.


Kind regards,



Thank you Ben, this is absolutely correct: we have an amazing vibrant 
community, and we need a front-end website that fosters and promotes 
OSGeo projects (especially those in OSGeo incubation as well as OSGeo 
Community projects) and OSGeo initiatives such as the Summer of Code. 
Period.  Full stop.  This is what our community is good at, and why we 
are so desired today.  From experience I can tell you that this 
struggle, that is being put forth here, will just separate our 
community (you can see it is already) and make the community weaker.


Let us help our OSGeo community grow.   Don't worry about competing 
organizations (trust me they are fine, they have big money for 
marketing and teams of people working on that), just focus on OSGeo 
and our wonderful community.


I am setting up an OSGeo "Website Management Team" now, to help bring 
the focus on the OSGeo community, manage the website (and WordPress 
theme), security, backups, content etc, and will propose this to 
OSGeo's Systems committee and OSGeo Board; for the longterm 
maintenance of the website.  I imagine during this maintenance process 
we will be removing these unnecessary promotions, and focus on the 
OSGeo community (us). We'll leave promotion of other things for those 
with the big money ha, as they have the big funding for their 
products, as you mentioned.  We will focus on the OSGeo community.


Thanks Ben,

-jeff



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Add your avatar to wiki pages

[Sandro Santilli]

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 09:42:48AM -0300, Jeff McKenna wrote:
> Hi everyone!
> 
> Have some geek fun and magically add your avatar (from Gravatar/Libravatar
> services) to your OSGeo wiki pages.  The wiki syntax is:
> 
>

Actually this is even easier with the updated User template [1]:
just fill in the "Email" field and, i you didn't explicitly
specify a "Photo" field, the "Email" field will be used to retrive
an Avatar using the "Libravatar" protocol, which implies:

 - Ask the DNS database if your mail domain has an associated
   avatar service, and use that if so (it is the case for me)

 - Failing the above, ask libravatar.org for the avatar associated
   to your email fingerprint (you can upload a picture there:
   https://www.libravatar.org/)

 - If you hadn't uploaded a picture on libravatar.org, it will
   fallback to gravatar (some of you may know gravatar from
   elsewhere)

NOTE: the same process above is the one used to display avatars
for Gogs users here: https://git.osgeo.org/gogs/explore/users/

The idea of "libre avatar" is that you can be in control of
serving your own avatar.

[1] https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Template:OSGeo_Member

--strk;
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[OSGeo-Discuss] Add your avatar to wiki pages

[Jeff McKenna]

Hi everyone!

Have some geek fun and magically add your avatar (from 
Gravatar/Libravatar services) to your OSGeo wiki pages.  The wiki syntax 
is:


   

See an example at the top of: https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna

Read about the implementation at: https://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/1688

Have fun!

-jeff

--
Jeff McKenna
President Emeritus, OSGeo Foundation
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna





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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Jeff McKenna]

On 2017-09-21 8:02 AM, Ben Caradoc-Davies wrote:

On 21/09/17 19:54, María Arias de Reyna wrote:

In fact, publishing blog posts comparing closed and FLOSS is also very
helpful. If you are doubting what kind of software to use, a good
comparison with table feature comparisons is very handy But that
should be outside the project page, because we are not begging for
users. We are strong projects on our own, we don't need to keep
continuously comparing to the closed alternatives for users to know
what we do.


Uplifting tweet of the week:

"Jon Kuperman‏ @jkup
Stop treating open source like a product you purchased and start 
treating it like a team you belong to."

https://twitter.com/jkup/status/909887066103676928

Referring to proprietary GIS on the OSGeo website risks misleading users 
that OSGeo projects are just competing products. We offer something that 
proprietary GIS never can: the opportunity to join a community of peers.


Kind regards,



Thank you Ben, this is absolutely correct: we have an amazing vibrant 
community, and we need a front-end website that fosters and promotes 
OSGeo projects (especially those in OSGeo incubation as well as OSGeo 
Community projects) and OSGeo initiatives such as the Summer of Code. 
Period.  Full stop.  This is what our community is good at, and why we 
are so desired today.  From experience I can tell you that this 
struggle, that is being put forth here, will just separate our community 
(you can see it is already) and make the community weaker.


Let us help our OSGeo community grow.   Don't worry about competing 
organizations (trust me they are fine, they have big money for marketing 
and teams of people working on that), just focus on OSGeo and our 
wonderful community.


I am setting up an OSGeo "Website Management Team" now, to help bring 
the focus on the OSGeo community, manage the website (and WordPress 
theme), security, backups, content etc, and will propose this to OSGeo's 
Systems committee and OSGeo Board; for the longterm maintenance of the 
website.  I imagine during this maintenance process we will be removing 
these unnecessary promotions, and focus on the OSGeo community (us). 
We'll leave promotion of other things for those with the big money ha, 
as they have the big funding for their products, as you mentioned.  We 
will focus on the OSGeo community.


Thanks Ben,

-jeff

--
Jeff McKenna
President Emeritus, OSGeo Foundation
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Ben Caradoc-Davies]

On 21/09/17 19:54, María Arias de Reyna wrote:

In fact, publishing blog posts comparing closed and FLOSS is also very
helpful. If you are doubting what kind of software to use, a good
comparison with table feature comparisons is very handy But that
should be outside the project page, because we are not begging for
users. We are strong projects on our own, we don't need to keep
continuously comparing to the closed alternatives for users to know
what we do.


Uplifting tweet of the week:

"Jon Kuperman‏ @jkup
Stop treating open source like a product you purchased and start 
treating it like a team you belong to."

https://twitter.com/jkup/status/909887066103676928

Referring to proprietary GIS on the OSGeo website risks misleading users 
that OSGeo projects are just competing products. We offer something that 
proprietary GIS never can: the opportunity to join a community of peers.


Kind regards,

--
Ben Caradoc-Davies 
Director
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Massimiliano Cannata]

Hi,
My 2 cents...

Why not just make a section for migrate from and put there a number of
solutions for migration. There's not only one solution to arcgis and maybe
not just a single software but a combination of free software.

Aside of a project put a link to that section, to drive the users to all
the options OSGeo propose...

This is more fare and neutral... From my point of view.

Maxi

Il 21 set 2017 10:28 AM, "Sanghee Shin"  ha scritto:

Hi all,



Let’s go back to the legal issues. ESRI provides its clear guidelines about
how to use its products name, web link and logo here:
http://www.esri.com/legal/weblink-logoagreement. Please read through the
license agreement. I don’t think we can meet all the terms and conditions
provided by ESRI.



Cheers,

신상희
---
Shin, Sanghee
Gaia3D, Inc. - The GeoSpatial Company
www.gaia3d.com



*보낸 사람: *Sandro Santilli 
*보낸 날짜: *2017년 9월 21일 목요일 오후 5:19
*받는 사람: *Jody Garnett 
*참조: *OSGeo Discussions ; Helmut Kudrnovsky
; OSGeo-Marketing 
*제목: *Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website



On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 08:33:05PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:



> How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just

> displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It would

> be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to the
project

> page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from MapInfo.



It's different degrees of annoyance. I guess a brand-less and

link-less list of names of proprietary products would not be too

"offensive" for me (assuming spam filtering lets it pass) but I'd

still prefer an hidden keyword. Something that you never see written

but is recognized by the search engine to give you back a similar

software: you search for  you get .



The "like Photoshop, only better" motto I like even when it contains

the name because it explicitly bashes it :)



--strk;

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Venkatesh Raghavan]

Dear All,

If the aim is only to help new users who are not aware of
Free and Open Source Geospatial Software, it could be
better to have a dedicated page which allows new user
to input keywords (e.g. the present software they are using,
of the OGC standards compliance they are looking for etc.)
and returning the results pointing to appropriate OSGeo
software).

If I understood correctly, I think this is what Sandro has been
suggesting and I like this approach.

As I already commented on the github ticket 1], I do not think
it is necessary to have an item such as "similar proprietary software"
or "Migrate From XXX" (also, we should rather propose "Migration *form* 
YYY to Free and Open Source

tool", where YYY would be the user input keyword).

Also, some of the names of Proprietary products are registered as 
trademarks,
and it could be better to avoid using these names directly on the OSGeo 
website.


Best

Venka

[1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100

On 9/21/2017 5:15 PM, Sandro Santilli wrote:

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 08:33:05PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:


How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just
displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It would
be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to the project
page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from MapInfo.

It's different degrees of annoyance. I guess a brand-less and
link-less list of names of proprietary products would not be too
"offensive" for me (assuming spam filtering lets it pass) but I'd
still prefer an hidden keyword. Something that you never see written
but is recognized by the search engine to give you back a similar
software: you search for  you get .

The "like Photoshop, only better" motto I like even when it contains
the name because it explicitly bashes it :)

--strk;
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[María Arias de Reyna]

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:47 AM, Andy Turner  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It is possible to come up with a set of tasks and tests used to confirm and 
> classify what software are capable of. Working out what is included and how 
> this is included is non-trivial and I think this is in the domain of the Open 
> Geospatial Consortium and the standards defining organisations generally. 
> Sorry, I've not been engaging there of late, but when I did interoperability 
> was the primary goal and standardisation of data and services and how to use 
> the services was key. Anyway, there can be other descriptors of 
> software/services too, like the nature of the user interfaces (whether there 
> are optional GUI/command line/whether things operate via web protocols and 
> indeed whether it is more a single desktop application or something that has 
> more of a client/server architecture, whether it is modular, whether there is 
> an API (and what the nature of this is), what language(s) it is written in 
> and possibly loads of other things).
>
> Sorry, I digress, let me try to get to the point...
>
> If there was a breakdown of what functions there are and how the software 
> works then this may help in identifying not only similarities between one 
> FOSS offering and other proprietary ones, but between FOSS ones. This could 
> be useful in a number of ways, one of which might be identifying whether 
> there is a single FOSS offering that does everything that a user currently 
> wants to do (and may do already using other software).
>
> Migrating from using one set of software to using another to perform the same 
> tasks can be quite a job for any organisation. It might require a significant 
> amount of research, the development of educational resources and training.
>
> It would be great if there was a set of educational resources that show how 
> to perform tasks in different software (and indeed using different 
> programming languages). Whatever the platform, there are metrics on the 
> complexity the level of automation and the computational efficiency that can 
> be developed. With a set of metrics it would be easier to measure the 
> similarity and difference between software.
>
> Sorry, having rambled on I realise that I have gone a bit off topic, I expect 
> this has already been suggested and is being worked on, I've dared not to 
> read the entire thread before posting, and I have very little time to help 
> get this in place! Also I have not replied to the very last post on this 
> thread but one a bit back as these others have spun off in other important 
> directions.
>
> Anyway, you have my moral support, thanks for all your efforts developing the 
> OSGeo website, educational resources, services and software.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Andy
> http://www.geog.leeds.ac.uk/people/a.turner/index.html
>



Hi Andy,

Somehow we are already including this. Although, it's true, we didin't
distinguish between client and server, which could be quite confusing
(to improve!). For example, for GeoNetwork, find attached image.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Andy Turner]

Hi,

It is possible to come up with a set of tasks and tests used to confirm and 
classify what software are capable of. Working out what is included and how 
this is included is non-trivial and I think this is in the domain of the Open 
Geospatial Consortium and the standards defining organisations generally. 
Sorry, I've not been engaging there of late, but when I did interoperability 
was the primary goal and standardisation of data and services and how to use 
the services was key. Anyway, there can be other descriptors of 
software/services too, like the nature of the user interfaces (whether there 
are optional GUI/command line/whether things operate via web protocols and 
indeed whether it is more a single desktop application or something that has 
more of a client/server architecture, whether it is modular, whether there is 
an API (and what the nature of this is), what language(s) it is written in and 
possibly loads of other things).

Sorry, I digress, let me try to get to the point...

If there was a breakdown of what functions there are and how the software works 
then this may help in identifying not only similarities between one FOSS 
offering and other proprietary ones, but between FOSS ones. This could be 
useful in a number of ways, one of which might be identifying whether there is 
a single FOSS offering that does everything that a user currently wants to do 
(and may do already using other software).

Migrating from using one set of software to using another to perform the same 
tasks can be quite a job for any organisation. It might require a significant 
amount of research, the development of educational resources and training.

It would be great if there was a set of educational resources that show how to 
perform tasks in different software (and indeed using different programming 
languages). Whatever the platform, there are metrics on the complexity the 
level of automation and the computational efficiency that can be developed. 
With a set of metrics it would be easier to measure the similarity and 
difference between software. 

Sorry, having rambled on I realise that I have gone a bit off topic, I expect 
this has already been suggested and is being worked on, I've dared not to read 
the entire thread before posting, and I have very little time to help get this 
in place! Also I have not replied to the very last post on this thread but one 
a bit back as these others have spun off in other important directions.

Anyway, you have my moral support, thanks for all your efforts developing the 
OSGeo website, educational resources, services and software.

Best wishes,

Andy
http://www.geog.leeds.ac.uk/people/a.turner/index.html
  


-Original Message-
From: Discuss [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of María Arias 
de Reyna
Sent: 21 September 2017 09:23
To: Jody Garnett ; Maria Antonia Brovelli 
; OSGeo Discussions ; 
OSGeo-Marketing ; Helmut Kudrnovsky 
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Sandro Santilli  wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 08:33:05PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:
>
>> How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just 
>> displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It 
>> would be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to 
>> the project page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from 
>> MapInfo.
>
> It's different degrees of annoyance. I guess a brand-less and 
> link-less list of names of proprietary products would not be too 
> "offensive" for me (assuming spam filtering lets it pass) but I'd 
> still prefer an hidden keyword. Something that you never see written 
> but is recognized by the search engine to give you back a similar
> software: you search for  you get .
>
> The "like Photoshop, only better" motto I like even when it contains 
> the name because it explicitly bashes it :)

That would work very good if we use for example google ads. But still, for 
people who are lookiing for "how to migrate to FLOSS", a non-linked name could 
be useful. I mean: they exist, they are there, they are a fact. We don't need 
to promote them to be able to say "if you already use this, you can move to 
this".

And now I realize I put a link on the GeoNetwork page just because I copypasted 
from another project :) Bad María, bad.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Mateusz Loskot]

On 21 September 2017 at 10:15, Sandro Santilli  wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 08:33:05PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:
>
>> How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just
>> displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It would
>> be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to the project
>> page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from MapInfo.
>
> It's different degrees of annoyance. I guess a brand-less and
> link-less list of names of proprietary products would not be too
> "offensive" for me (assuming spam filtering lets it pass) but I'd
> still prefer an hidden keyword. Something that you never see written
> but is recognized by the search engine to give you back a similar
> software: you search for  you get .
>
> The "like Photoshop, only better" motto I like even when it contains
> the name because it explicitly bashes it :)

OSGeo Sponsors:

2007:Autodesk,LizardTech,INGRES
2008:Autodesk,LizardTech,INGRES,PCI Geomatics
2009: -//-
2010: -//-
...

Sandro, I'm glad you can cope with a name or two, I guess.

Best regards,
-- 
Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Sanghee Shin]

Hi all, 

Let’s go back to the legal issues. ESRI provides its clear guidelines about how 
to use its products name, web link and logo here: 
http://www.esri.com/legal/weblink-logoagreement. Please read through the 
license agreement. I don’t think we can meet all the terms and conditions 
provided by ESRI. 

Cheers, 
신상희
---
Shin, Sanghee
Gaia3D, Inc. - The GeoSpatial Company
www.gaia3d.com 

보낸 사람: Sandro Santilli
보낸 날짜: 2017년 9월 21일 목요일 오후 5:19
받는 사람: Jody Garnett
참조: OSGeo Discussions; Helmut Kudrnovsky; OSGeo-Marketing
제목: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 08:33:05PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:

> How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just
> displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It would
> be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to the project
> page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from MapInfo.

It's different degrees of annoyance. I guess a brand-less and
link-less list of names of proprietary products would not be too
"offensive" for me (assuming spam filtering lets it pass) but I'd
still prefer an hidden keyword. Something that you never see written
but is recognized by the search engine to give you back a similar
software: you search for  you get .

The "like Photoshop, only better" motto I like even when it contains
the name because it explicitly bashes it :)

--strk;
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[María Arias de Reyna]

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 9:38 AM, Helmut Kudrnovsky  wrote:
> Moreover I wonder that no one react on my main sentence:
>
> "I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects
> improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc) is
> the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such
> opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to produce
> nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. based on
> tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the young who
> will be our OSGeo's future."


I didn't react to that because I see this conclusion as obviously good
as you see it :) I am not sure if that is the intended purpose of this
type of programs (shouldn't they code?) but for sure, showcases videos
and tutorials are very nice for promoting the software.

In fact, publishing blog posts comparing closed and FLOSS is also very
helpful. If you are doubting what kind of software to use, a good
comparison with table feature comparisons is very handy But that
should be outside the project page, because we are not begging for
users. We are strong projects on our own, we don't need to keep
continuously comparing to the closed alternatives for users to know
what we do.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Gert-Jan van der Weijden (OSGeo.nl)]

As a regular user of proprietary GIS software (ArcGIS, FME, Oracle 
Spatial etcetera) I can assure that it is very valuable to have some 
sort of guidance in the diversity of the FOSS landscape.


I agree that "similar proprietary products" isn't the right label. 
However, instead of the proposed "migratte from" (which sound like a 
complete migration plan) I'd suggest the label "comparable proprietary 
software".


Kind regards,

Gert-Jan



María Arias de Reyna schreef op 21-09-2017 8:30:
On 20 September 2017 at 02:41, Helmut Kudrnovsky  
wrote:


Dear OSGeo community

I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to
"similar proprietary products" [1] to your attention.

My comment there:

"I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary
Products" should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS 
software
out there, there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be 
part of
e.g. a reviewed scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo 
projects - if
they want to - may link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve 
such
links. As already elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key 
if such

items are listed, but I can't see this happen. "

I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo 
projects
improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, 
etc) is

the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such
opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to 
produce
nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. 
based on
tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the 
young who

will be our OSGeo's future.

Kind regards
Helmut
OSGeo charter member

[1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100
[2] 
https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2017-September/036217.html

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Hi,

On my opinion, it makes sense to show relation between propietary and
free and open software. Just because we want to people to migrate to
free and open source software, so it is good if they can search for
the software they are currently using to know what software will they
use. It makes sense, it makes life easier on migrations.

Said this, I prefer the "Migrate from" label much better. And sure, no
link to the product, just the name. Why would we need a link? If they
don't know what that software is, the information is useless to them.
If they already know what that software is, the information is
redundant. So having a name is fine, having a link is nonsense.

Is "Migrate from" label aggresive? Not at all. We are OsGeo, we are
promoting FLOSS. Promoting FLOSS means we are encouraging people to
move from propietary to open. That is our philosophy, that is our
motto. If propietary software feels bad because we follow our goals...
well, then maybe they should stop promoting their own software too
because that makes me feel bad.

Regards,
María.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Helmut Kudrnovsky]

Maria,

I agree with you, presenting links to proprietary software on the OSGeo website is nonsense.

I've just reread my initial mail and I can't see anything in it against support for migration.

Moreover I wonder that no one react on my main sentence:

"I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc) is the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to produce nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. based on tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the young who will be our OSGeo's future."

If you understand and know nowadays click-and-read behavior of internet users, the mean time to stay on a website is about 5 seconds.

If you want to foster migration and keep website visitors' attention high, fancy and catchy screenshots of use cases, short videos of cool stuff with open data etc etc etc is highly effective. 

Hakuna Matata
Helmut
-- Am 21.09.17, 08:30, "María Arias de Reyna"  schrieb:
>> On 20 September 2017 at 02:41, Helmut Kudrnovsky  wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear OSGeo community
>>>
>>> I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to
>>> "similar proprietary products" [1] to your attention.
>>>
>>> My comment there:
>>>
>>> "I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary
>>> Products" should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS software
>>> out there, there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part of
>>> e.g. a reviewed scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects - if
>>> they want to - may link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve such
>>> links. As already elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if such
>>> items are listed, but I can't see this happen. "
>>>
>>> I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects
>>> improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc) is
>>> the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such
>>> opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to produce
>>> nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. based on
>>> tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the young who
>>> will be our OSGeo's future.
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>> Helmut
>>> OSGeo charter member
>>>
>>> [1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100
>>> [2] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2017-September/036217.html
>>> ___
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
Hi,
On my opinion, it makes sense to show relation between propietary and
free and open software. Just because we want to people to migrate to
free and open source software, so it is good if they can search for
the software they are currently using to know what software will they
use. It makes sense, it makes life easier on migrations.
Said this, I prefer the "Migrate from" label much better. And sure, no
link to the product, just the name. Why would we need a link? If they
don't know what that software is, the information is useless to them.
If they already know what that software is, the information is
redundant. So having a name is fine, having a link is nonsense.
Is "Migrate from" label aggresive? Not at all. We are OsGeo, we are
promoting FLOSS. Promoting FLOSS means we are encouraging people to
move from propietary to open. That is our philosophy, that is our
motto. If propietary software feels bad because we follow our goals...
well, then maybe they should stop promoting their own software too
because that makes me feel bad.
Regards,
María.


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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[María Arias de Reyna]

>> On 20 September 2017 at 02:41, Helmut Kudrnovsky  wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear OSGeo community
>>>
>>> I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to
>>> "similar proprietary products" [1] to your attention.
>>>
>>> My comment there:
>>>
>>> "I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary
>>> Products" should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS software
>>> out there, there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part of
>>> e.g. a reviewed scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects - if
>>> they want to - may link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve such
>>> links. As already elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if such
>>> items are listed, but I can't see this happen. "
>>>
>>> I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects
>>> improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc) is
>>> the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such
>>> opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to produce
>>> nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. based on
>>> tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the young who
>>> will be our OSGeo's future.
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>> Helmut
>>> OSGeo charter member
>>>
>>> [1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100
>>> [2] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2017-September/036217.html
>>> ___
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Hi,

On my opinion, it makes sense to show relation between propietary and
free and open software. Just because we want to people to migrate to
free and open source software, so it is good if they can search for
the software they are currently using to know what software will they
use. It makes sense, it makes life easier on migrations.

Said this, I prefer the "Migrate from" label much better. And sure, no
link to the product, just the name. Why would we need a link? If they
don't know what that software is, the information is useless to them.
If they already know what that software is, the information is
redundant. So having a name is fine, having a link is nonsense.

Is "Migrate from" label aggresive? Not at all. We are OsGeo, we are
promoting FLOSS. Promoting FLOSS means we are encouraging people to
move from propietary to open. That is our philosophy, that is our
motto. If propietary software feels bad because we follow our goals...
well, then maybe they should stop promoting their own software too
because that makes me feel bad.

Regards,
María.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Jody Garnett]

That can work Sandro, and thanks for participating on the ticket.

I do find value in listing those keywords (under an appropriate heading) to
reassure people they have found what they are looking for. Indeed I hope
these pages will be shared as a link when people ask "You are still using
MapInfo?
Try this ..." (but that is step 3 "enthuse").

How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just
displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It would
be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to the project
page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from MapInfo.
--
Jody

--
Jody Garnett

On 20 September 2017 at 14:33, Sandro Santilli  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 01:19:48PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:
>
> > The reason I want to keep the names (don't care about the links) is
> address
> > the needs of non-commuity website visitors. To answer the question "I use
> > XXX, how can you help me?"
>
> As I wrote on the ticket already, I like the idea of answering such
> question, but having the XXX name on each page does not answer it
> because it would require people to know the answer before asking the
> question.
>
> How hard would it be to turn those XXX into keywords so that the
> a search for "XXX" returns related project pages ?
>
> --strk;
>
>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] R: [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Jody Garnett]

Marc there is also the opportunity for us to grow as an organization.

Many of the points brought up in this discussion, and the earlier one on
listing open source projects, were voiced by myself back in March as I
gradually came to terms with this scope of work. I think it was Jeffrey who
first asked me to consider that we can best serve our open source projects
by taking on this outreach (rather than directly focusing on recruiting
more funding and contributors). I am willing to give it a go but it is a
leap of faith that we are taking the correct approach...

The beta website, and these discussions, are far more effective than the
blog posts at communicating how OSGeo can be useful.
--
Jody Garnett

On 20 September 2017 at 20:18, Marc Vloemans 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> An observation from my end:
>
> this apparently has become an argument to frame a person - who has done
> more for our community than I can list - as if he is insulting and
> offending that same community. Unsuccessfully, I am glad. From the almost
> deadly silence I deduct no collective cry out "I am shocked, shocked,
> shocked".
>
> What a clever and Machiavellian turn this discussion has takentruly a
> textbook example for master classes in discussion techniques.
>
> Let me phrase it pleasantly: there is no moral high ground on this topic
> only organisational self-destruction.
>
> In my role as marketing committee chair, charter member and human(oid) I
> feel increasingly sad to witness again and again and again, a process where
> volunteers (working for nearly a year on our organisation's well received
> new brand and busy wrapping up the last website work) are publicly sucked
> into ...
> Well, something which I hardly recognise as the OSGeo that I entered more
> than a decade ago.
>
> For once I like to be proven wrong
>
> Kind regards,
> Marc Vloemans
>
>
> Op 20 sep. 2017 om 19:29 heeft Maria Antonia Brovelli <
> maria.brove...@polimi.it> het volgende geschreven:
>
> Jody, I see very difficult  the existence of a  vast majority of GIS
> industry that has honestly not heard about open source yet.  Anyway I
> refuse the idea of "similar proprietary software" because our projects are
> much more than pieces of code. Behind our software there are communities
> and limiting our projects to pieces  of code is offensive and insulting for
> the volunteers behind them. We are more and diverse. This is the reason why
> there are not "similar proprietary software".
> Thanks for removing the links.
> Best
> Maria
>
>
>
>
> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>
>
>  Messaggio originale 
> Da: Jody Garnett 
> Data: 20/09/17 18:53 (GMT+01:00)
> A: Maria Antonia Brovelli 
> Cc: Margherita Di Leo , Helmut Kudrnovsky <
> hel...@web.de>, OSGeo Discussions ,
> OSGeo-Marketing 
> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo
> website
>
> Thanks Maria,
>
> I reject the idea that we are advertising proprietary software, so each
> time it is phrased that way of course everyone well say "no".
>
> I want to help our software reach visitors that feel locked into
> proprietary software, please recognize this goal and how "migrate from" can
> help.
>
> --
> Jody Garnett
>
> On 20 September 2017 at 09:49, Maria Antonia Brovelli <
> maria.brove...@polimi.it> wrote:
>
>> Dear Jody
>> Personally I agree with Helmut and I don't see any necessity of putting
>> "similar proprietary software" on our web pages. I don't think proprietary
>> software need to be advertized. We are a Foundation about Open Software and
>> I want to see the open source projects on the website that we have been
>> paying as OSGeo.
>> I ask please to remove the "similar proprietary software"  and the
>> related links.
>> Many thanks
>> Best,
>> Maria
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>>
>>
>>  Messaggio originale 
>> Da: Jody Garnett 
>> Data: 20/09/17 14:45 (GMT+01:00)
>> A: Margherita Di Leo , Helmut Kudrnovsky <
>> hel...@web.de>
>> Cc: OSGeo Discussions , OSGeo-Marketing <
>> market...@lists.osgeo.org>
>> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo
>> website
>>
>> Thanks for the discussion on the bug report. Please keep in mind that
>> this website is written by us, but it is not intended for us - it is
>> intended for the vast majority of the GIS industry that has honestly not
>> heard about open source yet.
>>
>> These sections are optional, if one of our open source projects has a
>> particular target market in mind filling in this information would really
>> help! Indeed when I go to a normal GIS conference this is the top question
>> - since I have not had a chance to use the proprietary software it is not
>> one I can easily answer.
>>
>> In the above 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] R: [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Marc Vloemans]

Hi all,

An observation from my end:

this apparently has become an argument to frame a person - who has done more 
for our community than I can list - as if he is insulting and offending that 
same community. Unsuccessfully, I am glad. From the almost deadly silence I 
deduct no collective cry out "I am shocked, shocked, shocked".

What a clever and Machiavellian turn this discussion has takentruly a 
textbook example for master classes in discussion techniques. 

Let me phrase it pleasantly: there is no moral high ground on this topic only 
organisational self-destruction.

In my role as marketing committee chair, charter member and human(oid) I feel 
increasingly sad to witness again and again and again, a process where 
volunteers (working for nearly a year on our organisation's well received new 
brand and busy wrapping up the last website work) are publicly sucked into 
...
Well, something which I hardly recognise as the OSGeo that I entered more than 
a decade ago.

For once I like to be proven wrong

Kind regards,
Marc Vloemans


> Op 20 sep. 2017 om 19:29 heeft Maria Antonia Brovelli 
>  het volgende geschreven:
> 
> Jody, I see very difficult  the existence of a  vast majority of GIS industry 
> that has honestly not heard about open source yet.  Anyway I refuse the idea 
> of "similar proprietary software" because our projects are much more than 
> pieces of code. Behind our software there are communities and limiting our 
> projects to pieces  of code is offensive and insulting for the volunteers 
> behind them. We are more and diverse. This is the reason why there are not 
> "similar proprietary software". 
> Thanks for removing the links.
> Best
> Maria
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
> 
> 
>  Messaggio originale 
> Da: Jody Garnett  
> Data: 20/09/17 18:53 (GMT+01:00) 
> A: Maria Antonia Brovelli  
> Cc: Margherita Di Leo , Helmut Kudrnovsky 
> , OSGeo Discussions , OSGeo-Marketing 
>  
> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website 
> 
> Thanks Maria,
> 
> I reject the idea that we are advertising proprietary software, so each time 
> it is phrased that way of course everyone well say "no".
> 
> I want to help our software reach visitors that feel locked into proprietary 
> software, please recognize this goal and how "migrate from" can help. 
> 
> --
> Jody Garnett
> 
>> On 20 September 2017 at 09:49, Maria Antonia Brovelli 
>>  wrote:
>> Dear Jody
>> Personally I agree with Helmut and I don't see any necessity of putting 
>> "similar proprietary software" on our web pages. I don't think proprietary 
>> software need to be advertized. We are a Foundation about Open Software and 
>> I want to see the open source projects on the website that we have been 
>> paying as OSGeo. 
>> I ask please to remove the "similar proprietary software"  and the related 
>> links. 
>> Many thanks 
>> Best,
>> Maria 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>> 
>> 
>>  Messaggio originale 
>> Da: Jody Garnett  
>> Data: 20/09/17 14:45 (GMT+01:00) 
>> A: Margherita Di Leo , Helmut Kudrnovsky  
>> Cc: OSGeo Discussions , OSGeo-Marketing 
>>  
>> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo 
>> website 
>> 
>> Thanks for the discussion on the bug report. Please keep in mind that this 
>> website is written by us, but it is not intended for us - it is intended for 
>> the vast majority of the GIS industry that has honestly not heard about open 
>> source yet.
>> 
>> These sections are optional, if one of our open source projects has a 
>> particular target market in mind filling in this information would really 
>> help! Indeed when I go to a normal GIS conference this is the top question - 
>> since I have not had a chance to use the proprietary software it is not one 
>> I can easily answer.
>> 
>> In the above bug report I would like to change the heading from "Similar 
>> Proprietary Products" to "Migrate From", but perhaps that is too 
>> confrontational? I would also like to avoid advertising proprietary 
>> software, linking to the associated wikipedia entry if appropriate.
>> 
>> I am not interested in reciprocity, I am interested in OSGeo projects taking 
>> competition to the GIS industry which as been missing.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:09 AM Margherita Di Leo  
>>> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
 On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Helmut Kudrnovsky  wrote:
 Dear OSGeo community
 
 I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to 
 "similar proprietary products" [1] to your attention.