Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Xavier Brochard]

Le 13.12.2021 14:35, Liam Proven a écrit :

As I have said more than once before, IMHO, the GNUstep project
*really* _NEEDS_ a version of a mainstream distro based on the desktop
environment, as a showcase.

NEXTspace hasn't released any binaries or an ISO yet as far as I know.
It needs that. Ordinary Linux users are not going to compile their
own.

The HelloSystem evaluated it and discarded it, and the GNUstep project
missed a _huge_ opportunity there. That made me very sad.


We all know that many projects never finished. Who can say what 
HelloSystem will be in a few months?


So why not help on NextSpace? I know that Serjii like to work alone, but 
we certainly can help in some parts, like bug tracking or starting an 
iso autobuilder like hello. Like others, I don't have so much time to 
give, already working on other projects, but adding little time with 
little time we can do something.


---
Librement,
Xavier Brochard xav...@alternatif.org
La liberté est à l'homme ce que les ailes sont à l'oiseau (Jean-Pierre 
Rosnay)

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Liam Proven]

On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 at 19:38, Xavier Brochard  wrote:
>
> We all know that many projects never finished. Who can say what
> HelloSystem will be in a few months?

It's already lasted quite a while and seems to be getting interest and
news coverage and so on. Almost all the other desktop-oriented FreeBSD
distros seem to have died, including its parent FuryBSD, PC-BSD,
TrueOS, and MidnightBSD. (I just checked and GohstBSD has a new
release, so maybe it's not dead. That's good to hear.)

> So why not help on NextSpace? I know that Serjii like to work alone, but
> we certainly can help in some parts, like bug tracking or starting an
> iso autobuilder like hello. Like others, I don't have so much time to
> give, already working on other projects, but adding little time with
> little time we can do something.

Well, TBH, I mostly lack any relevant technical skills, and I don't
use (or particularly like) CentOS.

I'm a technical writer and journalist, not a programmer or distro-builder.

-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Sergii Stoian]

Hi Liam,

> On 13 Dec 2021, at 15:35, Liam Proven  wrote:
> 
> This discussion contains some useful points. There may be stuff here
> that should be addressed right on the homepage.
> 
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29537172
> 
> Étoilé is there too. I wonder if this is because I mentioned both in my 
> article?
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29537538
> 
> As I have said more than once before, IMHO, the GNUstep project
> *really* _NEEDS_ a version of a mainstream distro based on the desktop
> environment, as a showcase.
> 
> NEXTspace hasn't released any binaries or an ISO yet as far as I know.
> It needs that. Ordinary Linux users are not going to compile their
> own.

For the sake of truth - NextSpace has 3 binary releases (RPMs). Please look 
carefully here https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/releases 
.
Last 0.90 release support 3 bistro: CenOS 7, CentOS 8 and Fedora 31. Also it 
includes install script and installation process pretty much simple even for 
non-technical person like you.

New release will include changes I’ve made which can provide some opportunity 
to GNUstep applications: I’ve rewritten most part of window manager (WINGs) to 
Apple’s CoreFoundation, replace blocking event loop with non-blocking with help 
of GCD and CoreFoundation. Plus I’ve add Notification Center bridge between 
NSNotificationCenter (Objective-C, GNUstep) and CFNotificationCenter (C, 
CoreFoundation) to Workspace Manager. It’s just working proof-of-concept but I 
can implement communication channel between window manager and GNUstep 
applications. Someone need to write communication protocol and conversion of 
allow types between Foundation and CoreFoundation (I think, strings and 
collections would be enough for the start).

> The HelloSystem evaluated it and discarded it, and the GNUstep project
> missed a _huge_ opportunity there. That made me very sad.
> 
> https://hellosystem.github.io/docs/
> 
> Hello is getting some attention. I managed to get a recent build to
> boot on hardware on one of my machines recently for the first time (I
> tried 0.5 & 0.6 with no success except in a VM) and while it's still
> very basic, it is there, it works, you can use it, and people are
> trying it.

Some time ago I’ve started NextSpace development on FreeBSD. I’ve consciously 
switched to Linux for 2 reasons: most commercial applications are written for 
Linux (RHEL and Ubuntu) and FreeBSD lacks such powerful system-level utilities 
like UDisks (for automatic removable media management).

Sergii

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Gregory Casamento]

Liam,


On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 8:58 AM Liam Proven  wrote:

> This discussion contains some useful points. There may be stuff here
> that should be addressed right on the homepage.
>
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29537172
>
> Étoilé is there too. I wonder if this is because I mentioned both in my
> article?
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29537538
>
> As I have said more than once before, IMHO, the GNUstep project
> *really* _NEEDS_ a version of a mainstream distro based on the desktop
> environment, as a showcase.
>

There has been, for a while, the idea of creating a "reference"
distribution.


> NEXTspace hasn't released any binaries or an ISO yet as far as I know.
> It needs that. Ordinary Linux users are not going to compile their
> own.
>
> The HelloSystem evaluated it and discarded it, and the GNUstep project
> missed a _huge_ opportunity there. That made me very sad.
>
> https://hellosystem.github.io/docs/
>
>
It is interesting that they apparently never bothered to speak to a SINGLE
SOUL on this project about their interest.

Hello is getting some attention. I managed to get a recent build to
> boot on hardware on one of my machines recently for the first time (I
> tried 0.5 & 0.6 with no success except in a VM) and while it's still
> very basic, it is there, it works, you can use it, and people are
> trying it.
>
>
> --
> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
> UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420)
> 702-829-053
>
>

-- 
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Liam Proven]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 at 00:08, Sergii Stoian  wrote:
>
> For the sake of truth - NextSpace has 3 binary releases (RPMs). Please look 
> carefully here https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/releases.
> Last 0.90 release support 3 bistro: CenOS 7, CentOS 8 and Fedora 31.

Aha! That is excellent.  I had missed that.

I will see if I can install it in a VM.

> Also it includes install script and installation process pretty much simple 
> even for non-technical person like you.

Um. "Not a programmer" != "non-technical person".

I've been a *nix sysadmin since 1988 and working with Linux since
1996. I have designed, implemented, built and supported more networks
than I can remember, and systems I built and ran handled $600M of
business per day, every day, for years on end, with the only downtime
being due to external factors such as leased line failure.

I am, I think, very much a technical person and have been for my whole career.

The thing is, I know my strengths and weaknesses, and while I *can*
program in 3 or 4 languages, I am not good at it. So I focus on what I
am good at, not what I am bad at.

> Some time ago I’ve started NextSpace development on FreeBSD. I’ve consciously 
> switched to Linux for 2 reasons: most commercial applications are written for 
> Linux (RHEL and Ubuntu) and FreeBSD lacks such powerful system-level 
> utilities like UDisks (for automatic removable media management).

I agree regarding FreeBSD.

Do you think it would be easy, or hard, or near-impossible to get the
NEXTSPACE desktop running on Ubuntu or on Debian?


-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi,

Liam Proven wrote:
> This discussion contains some useful points. There may be stuff here
> that should be addressed right on the homepage.
>
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29537172
>
> Étoilé is there too. I wonder if this is because I mentioned both in my 
> article?
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29537538
>
> As I have said more than once before, IMHO, the GNUstep project
> *really* _NEEDS_ a version of a mainstream distro based on the desktop
> environment, as a showcase.

It is a high burden to maintain, there was one official, one
not-official... I agree that it is useful, but I consider having ready
working packages of quality of much higher impact. That distribution
would be just a show-case, but then the majority of people would still
want to use GNUstep things in their current OS. Maybe one day our impact
will be so great that GSUbuntu will spread, but I doubt.
Also, the strength of GNUstep is its portability, so the target OS shoud
be too.

I wonder if Richard Stonehouse still reads us? His ready VM images was
excellent! What more convenient than trying in a virtual machine before
deciding to install?

> The HelloSystem evaluated it and discarded it, and the GNUstep project
> missed a _huge_ opportunity there. That made me very sad.
>
> https://hellosystem.github.io/docs/
>
> Hello is getting some attention. I managed to get a recent build to
> boot on hardware on one of my machines recently for the first time (I
> tried 0.5 & 0.6 with no success except in a VM) and while it's still
> very basic, it is there, it works, you can use it, and people are
> trying it.

These "mac-like graphic-refined OS forks" come and go... they are nice,
but have no foundations. It was ElementaryOS before, something else even
before. The contribute to fragmentation of the Linux/BSD desktop.
They evaluated us and discarded GNUstep on what basis? I had no
interaction with any of them nor did i see things on the mailing list. I
doubt someone without prior knowledge can grasp GS  all by onself
without help. So you think "our loss", but I'd say also "their loss".
Now they have a mesh of python stuff, simplified and different App
bunles... but at the end where are the "apps" for HelloSystem?

We have few, but it is possible to make a full, consistent environment
of GNUstep. Several attempts have proven that!

A bad evaluation of GNUstep was done years ago.. then GNOME was created
and now we know the monstrum that came out which reinvented fromt eh
toolkit to distributed objects and now has a lot of disgruntled users.
We are adding theme support while they remove it... and GTK in general
cas cliend side drawing which makes a mess, wheras ours works better
(but is messy too if one mixes applications)

Riccardo

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 14.12.2021 um 16:29 schrieb Riccardo Mottola :
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Liam Proven wrote:
>> This discussion contains some useful points. There may be stuff here
>> that should be addressed right on the homepage.
>> 
>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29537172
>> 
>> Étoilé is there too. I wonder if this is because I mentioned both in my 
>> article?
>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29537538
>> 
>> As I have said more than once before, IMHO, the GNUstep project
>> *really* _NEEDS_ a version of a mainstream distro based on the desktop
>> environment, as a showcase.
> 
> It is a high burden to maintain, there was one official, one
> not-official...

> I agree that it is useful, but I consider having ready
> working packages of quality of much higher impact. That distribution
> would be just a show-case, but then the majority of people would still
> want to use GNUstep things in their current OS. Maybe one day our impact
> will be so great that GSUbuntu will spread, but I doubt.

A different approach is not a GSUbuntu but providing GS as an alternative
to Gnome, KDE, Mate, Xfce4, LXDE and numerous others.

Quantumstep does it that way. It has a dedicated and maintained package
repository where it is enough on PC side to add a one-liner entry to 
/etc/apt/sources.list.d,
do an apt-get update && apt-get install quantumstep. Proper dependencies
and some installation/configuration packages make it work.

This is very similar to installing e.g. xfce4 or lxde on some minimal
Debian with initially no gui user-interface.

Important applications like Firefox can easily be wrapped to make it useable
by a double-click. They will not fit into style and have rough edges in 
operation
of course  but are accessible.

Just my 2cts,
Nikolaus

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Graham Lee]

Hi all,



 From:   Riccardo Mottola  
 To:   Liam Proven , discuss-gnustep 
 
 Sent:   14/12/2021 3:29 PM 
 Subject:   Re: GNUstep on Hackernews 


They evaluated us and discarded GNUstep on what basis? I had no 
interaction with any of them nor did i see things on the mailing list.

The hello system thing was preceded by Livestep, which was fully GNUstep based 
and which Steven and I almost used as the basis for the [objc retain]; stream 
before switching to Debian. The design rationale for hello describes Qt as a 
pragmatic choice for UI toolkit while GNUstep "doesn't really leap forward into 
the present time" 
https://github.com/helloSystem/hello/wiki/Welcome-and-unwelcome-technologies.



That's one of those frustrating ideas that is probably part perception and part 
reality (probono did after all make a full GNUstep live image and worked on 
PureDarwin so has reached this conclusion from a position of some experience) 
but that doesn't have enough information to resolve. _What_ does a "present 
time" Cocoa reimplementation have, or look like, that GNUstep lacks? Does 
GNUstep actually lack that? We could ask him…I doubt to change his mind back to 
adopting GNUstep, but to see where what we have and what others want can come 
together.


Cheers,
Graham.

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Gregory Casamento]

Graham,

I have to admit to being very happy that many people have changed their
minds about GNUstep, but this subject... HelloSystem actually has me pretty
irritated.

On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 10:23 AM Graham Lee  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
> * From: * Riccardo Mottola 
> * To: * Liam Proven , discuss-gnustep <
> discuss-gnustep@gnu.org>
> * Sent: * 14/12/2021 3:29 PM
> * Subject: * Re: GNUstep on Hackernews
>
>
> They evaluated us and discarded GNUstep on what basis? I had no
> interaction with any of them nor did i see things on the mailing list.
>
>
> The hello system thing was preceded by Livestep, which was fully GNUstep
> based and which Steven and I almost used as the basis for the [objc
> retain]; stream before switching to Debian. The design rationale for hello
> describes Qt as a pragmatic choice for UI toolkit while GNUstep "doesn't
> really leap forward into the present time"
> https://github.com/helloSystem/hello/wiki/Welcome-and-unwelcome-technologies
> .
>

Just like every other project they seem to dismiss us without actually
speaking to any of us.   I have posted a question asking why none of us
were consulted and requested that they remove the remark from their wiki.
 I am appalled that they didn't even bother.  What does "leap into the
present time" even mean.


> That's one of those frustrating ideas that is probably part perception and
> part reality (probono did after all make a full GNUstep live image and
> worked on PureDarwin so has reached this conclusion from a position of some
> experience) but that doesn't have enough information to resolve. _What_
> does a "present time" Cocoa reimplementation have, or look like, that
> GNUstep lacks?
>

Indeed.  I remember LiveStep https://github.com/probonopd/LIVEstep

It seems to look okay, so what was the problem?!


> Does GNUstep actually lack that? We could ask him…I doubt to change his
> mind back to adopting GNUstep, but to see where what we have and what
> others want can come together.
>
>
SMDH



> Cheers,
> Graham.
>


-- 
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Liam Proven]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 at 15:27, Riccardo Mottola
 wrote:

> It is a high burden to maintain, there was one official, one
> not-official... I agree that it is useful, but I consider having ready
> working packages of quality of much higher impact.

When I post about or write about GNUstep, people are generally amazed
it still exists.

There are only about 0.1% as many programmers as users. Millions of
people use Linux as their desktop OS now.

> That distribution
> would be just a show-case, but then the majority of people would still
> want to use GNUstep things in their current OS.

I disagree, but I have said so before with little impact.

>  Maybe one day our impact
> will be so great that GSUbuntu will spread, but I doubt.
> Also, the strength of GNUstep is its portability, so the target OS shoud
> be too.

This is true, but if it's a visible, usable environment on Linux then
that will be a reason to help make sure it's one on other free xNixes
as well, no?

> I wonder if Richard Stonehouse still reads us? His ready VM images was
> excellent! What more convenient than trying in a virtual machine before
> deciding to install?

It was a good start, yes.

I think a mainstream, current distro installable on bare metal for
end-users *not programmers* is key, though.

> They evaluated us and discarded GNUstep on what basis? I had no
> interaction with any of them nor did i see things on the mailing list.

Me neither. I am in touch with the guy; I will ask.

> I
> doubt someone without prior knowledge can grasp GS  all by onself
> without help. So you think "our loss", but I'd say also "their loss".

That's the nature of FOSS.

> Now they have a mesh of python stuff, simplified and different App
> bunles... but at the end where are the "apps" for HelloSystem?

The programmer is the man who devised AppImage. I think he has more
than a bit of a clue in that direction.

> We have few, but it is possible to make a full, consistent environment
> of GNUstep. Several attempts have proven that!

I am not doubting it.

> A bad evaluation of GNUstep was done years ago.. then GNOME was created
> and now we know the monstrum that came out which reinvented fromt eh
> toolkit to distributed objects and now has a lot of disgruntled users.

Agreed.


-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Liam Proven]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 at 15:42, H. Nikolaus Schaller  wrote:

>
> A different approach is not a GSUbuntu but providing GS as an alternative
> to Gnome, KDE, Mate, Xfce4, LXDE and numerous others.
>
> Quantumstep does it that way. It has a dedicated and maintained package
> repository where it is enough on PC side to add a one-liner entry to 
> /etc/apt/sources.list.d,
> do an apt-get update && apt-get install quantumstep. Proper dependencies
> and some installation/configuration packages make it work.
>
> This is very similar to installing e.g. xfce4 or lxde on some minimal
> Debian with initially no gui user-interface.

Interesting -- I had not heard of this before. I will take a look.
Thank you for the link!

-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Gustavo Tavares]

Hi all,

My 2 cents: market it as Cocoa / DevToolkit.

Make the “Hero” element on the webpage a “Hello World” style program with a 
link tk download it. (Sidenote-would add an automatically installed helper tool 
such as `gsteprun` which will compile and run a 1-file program that does not 
need a Makefile.

Right below link to a “Hello World” GUI version.

The Distribuition is a big cherry on top which to my eye, distracts from the 
power offered by the DevKit.

This is the best DevKit.

Not sure how many of you use GNUstep as a daily driver—but I don’t see myself 
using the app environment as my daily anytime soon. I think there are more 
people like me out there. When and if the time comes I could switch—but far 
more people will come to the project if the toolkit is put front and center.

Cocoa is the bicycle for the mind.

G



On Tue, Dec 14, 2021, at 1:06 PM, Gregory Casamento wrote:
> 
> Graham,
> 
> I have to admit to being very happy that many people have changed their minds 
> about GNUstep, but this subject... HelloSystem actually has me pretty 
> irritated.
> 
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 10:23 AM Graham Lee  wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> 
>> *From: * Riccardo Mottola  
>> * To: * Liam Proven , discuss-gnustep 
>>  
>> * Sent: * 14/12/2021 3:29 PM 
>> * Subject: * Re: GNUstep on Hackernews 
>> 
>>> 
>>> They evaluated us and discarded GNUstep on what basis? I had no 
>>> interaction with any of them nor did i see things on the mailing list.
>>> 
>> The hello system thing was preceded by Livestep, which was fully GNUstep 
>> based and which Steven and I almost used as the basis for the [objc retain]; 
>> stream before switching to Debian. The design rationale for hello describes 
>> Qt as a pragmatic choice for UI toolkit while GNUstep "doesn't really leap 
>> forward into the present time" 
>> https://github.com/helloSystem/hello/wiki/Welcome-and-unwelcome-technologies.
> 
> Just like every other project they seem to dismiss us without actually 
> speaking to any of us.   I have posted a question asking why none of us were 
> consulted and requested that they remove the remark from their wiki.   I am 
> appalled that they didn't even bother.  What does "leap into the present 
> time" even mean.
> 
>>> 
>> 
>> That's one of those frustrating ideas that is probably part perception and 
>> part reality (probono did after all make a full GNUstep live image and 
>> worked on PureDarwin so has reached this conclusion from a position of some 
>> experience) but that doesn't have enough information to resolve. _What_ does 
>> a "present time" Cocoa reimplementation have, or look like, that GNUstep 
>> lacks?
> 
> Indeed.  I remember LiveStep https://github.com/probonopd/LIVEstep
> 
> It seems to look okay, so what was the problem?!
>  
>> Does GNUstep actually lack that? We could ask him…I doubt to change his mind 
>> back to adopting GNUstep, but to see where what we have and what others want 
>> can come together.
>> 
> 
> SMDH
> 
>  
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Graham.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Gregory Casamento
> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
> https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
> https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Gregory Casamento]

Gustavo,

On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 1:00 PM Gustavo Tavares 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> My 2 cents: market it as Cocoa / DevToolkit.
>

GNUstep is already presented in this fashion.


> Make the “Hero” element on the webpage a “Hello World” style program with
> a link tk download it. (Sidenote-would add an automatically installed
> helper tool such as `gsteprun` which will compile and run a 1-file program
> that does not need a Makefile.
>

Good idea.



> Right below link to a “Hello World” GUI version.
>
The Distribuition is a big cherry on top which to my eye, distracts from
> the power offered by the DevKit.
>

Right now there is no distro.


> This is the best DevKit.
>
>
I agree. :) (how can I not?)


> Not sure how many of you use GNUstep as a daily driver—but I don’t see
> myself using the app environment as my daily anytime soon. I think there
> are more people like me out there. When and if the time comes I could
> switch—but far more people will come to the project if the toolkit is put
> front and center.
>
> Cocoa is the bicycle for the mind.
>
> G
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021, at 1:06 PM, Gregory Casamento wrote:
>
>
> Graham,
>
> I have to admit to being very happy that many people have changed their
> minds about GNUstep, but this subject... HelloSystem actually has me pretty
> irritated.
>
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 10:23 AM Graham Lee  wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
> *From: * Riccardo Mottola 
> * To: * Liam Proven , discuss-gnustep <
> discuss-gnustep@gnu.org>
> * Sent: * 14/12/2021 3:29 PM
> * Subject: * Re: GNUstep on Hackernews
>
>
> They evaluated us and discarded GNUstep on what basis? I had no
> interaction with any of them nor did i see things on the mailing list.
>
>
> The hello system thing was preceded by Livestep, which was fully GNUstep
> based and which Steven and I almost used as the basis for the [objc
> retain]; stream before switching to Debian. The design rationale for hello
> describes Qt as a pragmatic choice for UI toolkit while GNUstep "doesn't
> really leap forward into the present time"
> https://github.com/helloSystem/hello/wiki/Welcome-and-unwelcome-technologies
> .
>
>
> Just like every other project they seem to dismiss us without actually
> speaking to any of us.   I have posted a question asking why none of us
> were consulted and requested that they remove the remark from their wiki.
>  I am appalled that they didn't even bother.  What does "leap into the
> present time" even mean.
>
>
>
> That's one of those frustrating ideas that is probably part perception and
> part reality (probono did after all make a full GNUstep live image and
> worked on PureDarwin so has reached this conclusion from a position of some
> experience) but that doesn't have enough information to resolve. _What_
> does a "present time" Cocoa reimplementation have, or look like, that
> GNUstep lacks?
>
>
> Indeed.  I remember LiveStep https://github.com/probonopd/LIVEstep
>
> It seems to look okay, so what was the problem?!
>
>
> Does GNUstep actually lack that? We could ask him…I doubt to change his
> mind back to adopting GNUstep, but to see where what we have and what
> others want can come together.
>
>
> SMDH
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> Graham.
>
>
>
> --
> Gregory Casamento
> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
> https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
> https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store
>
>
>

-- 
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi Gustavo,

Gustavo Tavares wrote:
> The Distribuition is a big cherry on top which to my eye, distracts
> from the power offered by the DevKit.
>
> This is the best DevKit.

you just proved what I wrote long ago. GNUstep has many souls: it is a
DevKit. It is the basis of a possible (or more than one) Desktop and
even a distribution.
Everyone wants to "see" it presented in one way or the other.

That's why I and others ("we") have choosen to be neutral: all aspects
are presented and you can choose the one you prefer.

Personally, I like it to be a Workspace environment and I have great
plans for it, but I don't want to force that on anybody, also because my
views of a Desktop are different from others that are pursuing it; yet
there is so much in common that can be done that it is just best to do it.

Riccardo

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi,

Graham Lee wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>
> *From: * Riccardo Mottola 
> *To: * Liam Proven , discuss-gnustep
> 
> *Sent: * 14/12/2021 3:29 PM
> *Subject: * Re: GNUstep on Hackernews
>
>
> They evaluated us and discarded GNUstep on what basis? I had no
> interaction with any of them nor did i see things on the mailing list.
>
>
> The hello system thing was preceded by Livestep, which was fully
> GNUstep based and which Steven and I almost used as the basis for the
> [objc retain]; stream before switching to Debian. The design rationale
> for hello describes Qt as a pragmatic choice for UI toolkit while
> GNUstep "doesn't really leap forward into the present
> time" 
> https://github.com/helloSystem/hello/wiki/Welcome-and-unwelcome-technologies.

That's an opinion and he is free to retain it. While the list for me of
"unwelcome technologies" is shared, what he writes for "welcome" is
absolutely not shared with me, I would put those under unwelcome easy,
especially Python and Go. With mDNSResponder vs Avahi we share the idea,
but perhaps here my BSD and Darwin legacy chimes in.
So for me, interest in helloSystem stops here. A lot of nice work is
flowing in I see.

For me GNUstep is present time. It has a couple of shortcomings, but
none that make s it so that apps cannot be done with.

>
> That's one of those frustrating ideas that is probably part perception
> and part reality (probono did after all make a full GNUstep live image
> and worked on PureDarwin so has reached this conclusion from a
> position of some experience) but that doesn't have enough information
> to resolve. _What_ does a "present time" Cocoa reimplementation have,
> or look like, that GNUstep lacks? Does GNUstep actually lack that? We
> could ask him…I doubt to change his mind back to adopting GNUstep, but
> to see where what we have and what others want can come together.

I don't need to "convince" anybody, propobopd may make his choices. I
worked with probonopd on some points, but I didn't find it very
constructive. If the only concept is "mac is more advanced/better" and
you inted GNUstep to copy Mac, then for me things stop there. While
Cocoa is interesting, this does not hold in my opinion for the evolution
of the Mac interface in the course of years.
Maybe it also attitude. IN the same group also Bertrand was involved and
it was a pleasure to collaborate with him and things evolved and this
year many Apps improved thanks to that.
Stay tuned for the next releases!

Of course, i hope you will continue to be interested in GNUstep. We
might discuss the best way to make a reference distribution too, but
that's a separate topic. I have some main issues as an approach there
(having had past collaboration with Richard), we can discuss it in
another thread.

Cheers,

Riccardo

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Gustavo Tavares]

Hi Greg, 

Happy you like the idea of the Download / Fast Script version. 

As an example of what I have in mind is RunKit.com—which happens to have been 
made by Tolmasky—a fellow Objective-C lover. His work on promoting Cappuccino 
and Cocoa did not see widespread commercial success but via Open-Source we can 
learn from what worked and what  lessons he may be applying in his future work. 
I think there is a lot to learn and GNUstep could benefit tremendously by 
targeting a "similar" audience.

Now what would that "similar audience" be? It would be people near the bottom 
of my "GNUstep" user funnel. 

1 - Worst: Does not know about GNUstep.
2 - Not as bad: Knows about GNUstep but thinks the project won't compile or 
work without a whole lot of hassle. (For example, does not know that there are 
1 file scripts which will install everything perfectly om Ubuntu.)
3 - Even less bad: Knows more or less that GNUstep will work with minimal 
effort and that it can deliver a good app.
4 - An inch better: Uses a Mac (or Windows) as a daily driver and logs into a 
remote computer with Ubuntu command line—and a GNUstep installation.
5 - Slighly better: Uses a Mac (or Windows) as a daily driver and logs into a 
remote computer with an Ubuntu GUI and a GNUstep installation. May use one or 
two GNUstep apps.
6 - Better: Uses Ubuntu GUI for development and many GNUstep applications.
7 Best: Uses GUI based on NEXTSpace work and the main GNUstep application 
including File Browser, etc.
8 - God-Level: Contributes to GNUstep.

To my mind, levels 2/3/4 are perhaps what should be addressed in the "Hero" 
section next bulltets.

Now—all levels will be on the home page—it just so happens that the would be 
addressed via a link or something like—"Did you know—GNUstep also provides you 
with a workspace for development. Check it out here."

I think these changes on the homepage could double or triple the number of 
people who have compiled a GNUstep program and that would be a huge success. 
Plus this narrower vision would do wonders for the workspace as more people are 
already on the ladder.

One more thing to keep in mind. Apple is no longer marketing Cocoa to Devs with 
a high priority. Swift and SwiftUI are the things they are selling. GNUstep 
needs to pick up that mantle.

Ricardo—I don't think we are dissimilar in our vision—I just think that if we 
sequence things the right way and in the right manner—more people will go 
further with this awesome project. And that would be awesome for us all.

Crossing my fingers GNUstepl :) 

G


On Tue, Dec 14, 2021, at 3:25 PM, Riccardo Mottola wrote:
> Hi Gustavo,
> 
> Gustavo Tavares wrote:
> > The Distribuition is a big cherry on top which to my eye, distracts
> > from the power offered by the DevKit.
> >
> > This is the best DevKit.
> 
> you just proved what I wrote long ago. GNUstep has many souls: it is a
> DevKit. It is the basis of a possible (or more than one) Desktop and
> even a distribution.
> Everyone wants to "see" it presented in one way or the other.
> 
> That's why I and others ("we") have choosen to be neutral: all aspects
> are presented and you can choose the one you prefer.
> 
> Personally, I like it to be a Workspace environment and I have great
> plans for it, but I don't want to force that on anybody, also because my
> views of a Desktop are different from others that are pursuing it; yet
> there is so much in common that can be done that it is just best to do it.
> 
> Riccardo
> 
> 

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Sergii Stoian]

Hi Liam,

> On 14 Dec 2021, at 14:17, Liam Proven  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 at 00:08, Sergii Stoian  wrote:
>> 
>> For the sake of truth - NextSpace has 3 binary releases (RPMs). Please look 
>> carefully here https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/releases.
>> Last 0.90 release support 3 bistro: CenOS 7, CentOS 8 and Fedora 31.
> 
> Aha! That is excellent.  I had missed that.
> 
> I will see if I can install it in a VM.

I’m sure you can. :)

> Also it includes install script and installation process pretty much simple 
> even for non-technical person like you.
> 
> Um. "Not a programmer" != "non-technical person".
> 
> I've been a *nix sysadmin since 1988 and working with Linux since
> 1996. I have designed, implemented, built and supported more networks
> than I can remember, and systems I built and ran handled $600M of
> business per day, every day, for years on end, with the only downtime
> being due to external factors such as leased line failure.
> 
> I am, I think, very much a technical person and have been for my whole career.
> 
> The thing is, I know my strengths and weaknesses, and while I *can*
> program in 3 or 4 languages, I am not good at it. So I focus on what I
> am good at, not what I am bad at.

My apologies for my ignorance! I was confused with your reply to Xavier 
presenting yourself as “technical writer and journalist”.
I’m deeply sorry!

> 
>> Some time ago I’ve started NextSpace development on FreeBSD. I’ve 
>> consciously switched to Linux for 2 reasons: most commercial applications 
>> are written for Linux (RHEL and Ubuntu) and FreeBSD lacks such powerful 
>> system-level utilities like UDisks (for automatic removable media 
>> management).
> 
> I agree regarding FreeBSD.
> 
> Do you think it would be easy, or hard, or near-impossible to get the
> NEXTSPACE desktop running on Ubuntu or on Debian?

It is absolutely possible. NEXTSPACE is not bound to RedHat-based distros! 
Moreover here 
https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/tree/master/Packaging/Debian 
 you can 
find some work made by Patrick Georgi to create Debian packages.

Sergii

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Svetlana Tkachenko]

'gnustep live cd' is already a good reference distribution, is it not? 
http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GNUstep_Live_CD i am asking because in some 
of the discussions above, it seems that there are some references to that a 
reference distribution does not exist

thank you for your time

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hello Svetlana,


Svetlana Tkachenko wrote:
> 'gnustep live cd' is already a good reference distribution, is it not? 
> http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GNUstep_Live_CD i am asking because in some 
> of the discussions above, it seems that there are some references to that a 
> reference distribution does not exist

To my knowledge it is outdated, last referenced version I see is 2017.

Furthermore, the packages came as configured in Debian, so some
configurations were debatable.

A different approach were the VMs of Richard, tailored to "maximum
GNUstep layout", but outdated nevertheless, also 2017.

Riccardo

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Liam Proven]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 at 16:41, Riccardo Mottola
 wrote:
>
> Svetlana Tkachenko wrote:
> > 'gnustep live cd' is already a good reference distribution, is it not? 
> > http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GNUstep_Live_CD i am asking because in 
> > some of the discussions above, it seems that there are some references to 
> > that a reference distribution does not exist
>
> To my knowledge it is outdated, last referenced version I see is 2017.

That's odd. I do not see the message you're replying to in this thread.

Anyway, yes, there was a demo LiveCD, and also a (IMHO very cluttered) VM image.

But that makes the system look outdated & archaic.

I submit we need installable binary packages for at least 1 current,
mainstream Linux distro, making it as easy to get a GNUstep system up
and running as it is to get any other Linux desktop environment.

No, not BSD; while I admire all the BSDs, they are not beginner-friendly OSes.

No, *not* as a set of programming tools, although that is appealing.
Why? Because nowhere near as many people _write_ code as _use_ code.

As a way of saying that GNUstep is alive and well, the best demo I can
think of is, for example, a current Ubuntu preinstalled with GNUstep &
as many GNUstep apps as possible, ready to install and use. To show
off the apps and that it is a rich and mature framework.

I know, there's no "native" web browser. That is not a biggie; just
bundle Firefox. To be ambitious, take the Javascript plugin that
Ubuntu used to integrate Firefox into Unity and make it display
GNUstep style menus instead.

The Waterfox web browser still integrates with Unity just fine.
https://www.waterfox.net/
https://ubuntuunity.org/

-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Gregory Casamento]

Unmaintained and out of date.  Also it's motto is "It's so... square and
gray."  So... yeah.


On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 6:41 PM Svetlana Tkachenko 
wrote:

> 'gnustep live cd' is already a good reference distribution, is it not?
> http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GNUstep_Live_CD i am asking because in
> some of the discussions above, it seems that there are some references to
> that a reference distribution does not exist
>
> thank you for your time
>
>

-- 
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Svetlana Tkachenko]

Hi Riccardo 

> > 'gnustep live cd' is already a good reference distribution, is it not? 
> > http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GNUstep_Live_CD i am asking because in 
> > some of the discussions above, it seems that there are some references to 
> > that a reference distribution does not exist
>
> To my knowledge it is outdated, last referenced version I see is 2017.

How does it compare to the present situation with debian? Do debian users of 
gnustep also get 2017 versions of packages?

Svetlana

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Andreas Fink]

packages in Debian are quite old and don't support objc2.0. So they are
not suitable for new development.
I always build my own packages due to that.
Btw who is the Debian maintainer for the gnustep builds?

Svetlana Tkachenko wrote on 16.12.21 22:45:
> Hi Riccardo 
>
>>> 'gnustep live cd' is already a good reference distribution, is it not? 
>>> http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GNUstep_Live_CD i am asking because in 
>>> some of the discussions above, it seems that there are some references to 
>>> that a reference distribution does not exist
>> To my knowledge it is outdated, last referenced version I see is 2017.
> How does it compare to the present situation with debian? Do debian users of 
> gnustep also get 2017 versions of packages?
>
> Svetlana
>

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 17.12.2021 um 10:33 schrieb Andreas Fink :
> 
> packages in Debian are quite old and don't support objc2.0. So they are
> not suitable for new development.
> I always build my own packages due to that.

That is why I propose the idea to provide a separate, maintained repository 
outside of debian.org
but compatible to it...

People just
1. add some /etc/apt/sources.list.d/gnustep.conf to e.g. deb.gnustep.org (see 
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianRepository)
2. download and install some GPG key
3. then apt-get update
4. and apt-get install gnustep
5. later apt-get upgrade

Same can be done for Ubuntu.

So if you already build your own packages, why not publish them in such a repo? 
Incl. objc2.0?

> Btw who is the Debian maintainer for the gnustep builds?

In my proposal it could be a member of the GNUstep community so we don't have 
to wait
for someone from Debian core...

BR,
Nikolaus

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Andreas Fink]

H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote on 17.12.21 10:57:
>
>> Am 17.12.2021 um 10:33 schrieb Andreas Fink :
>>
>> packages in Debian are quite old and don't support objc2.0. So they are
>> not suitable for new development.
>> I always build my own packages due to that.
> That is why I propose the idea to provide a separate, maintained repository 
> outside of debian.org
> but compatible to it...
>
> People just
> 1. add some /etc/apt/sources.list.d/gnustep.conf to e.g. deb.gnustep.org (see 
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianRepository)
> 2. download and install some GPG key
> 3. then apt-get update
> 4. and apt-get install gnustep
> 5. later apt-get upgrade
>
> Same can be done for Ubuntu.
>
> So if you already build your own packages, why not publish them in such a 
> repo? Incl. objc2.0?

it is public already. I use it heavily in my ulib library and all
libraries based on top of it (such as universalss7).

Add the repo key:

    wget -4 -O - http://repo.universalss7.ch/debian/key.asc |apt-key add -
or
    apt-key adv --recv-keys --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com
EE85CFC98EC405E3115EE86BD173212BFB27007D # UniversalSS7

add the repository to your /etc/apt/sources.list

Debian10
    deb http://repo.universalss7.ch/debian/ buster universalss7

Debian 11
    deb http://repo.universalss7.ch/debian/ bullseye universalss7
 
I can built for Intel and arm64
I also built one for Ubuntu a while back.
Not much difference.

The versions in my repo are built for my own use and thus are installed
in /usr/local/ to not interfer with anything installed from other sources.
I can build a release version for debian 10 or 11 if I know how the
original packages where built.
(what config otions etc)

>
>> Btw who is the Debian maintainer for the gnustep builds?
> In my proposal it could be a member of the GNUstep community so we don't have 
> to wait
> for someone from Debian core...

I agree but "someone from Debian core" must be someone who built it
originally. The config of these builds is what interests me.

>
> BR,
> Nikolaus
>
>

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 17.12.2021 um 11:19 schrieb Andreas Fink :
> 
> 
> 
> H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote on 17.12.21 10:57:
>> 
>>> Am 17.12.2021 um 10:33 schrieb Andreas Fink :
>>> 
>>> packages in Debian are quite old and don't support objc2.0. So they are
>>> not suitable for new development.
>>> I always build my own packages due to that.
>> That is why I propose the idea to provide a separate, maintained repository 
>> outside of debian.org
>> but compatible to it...
>> 
>> People just
>> 1. add some /etc/apt/sources.list.d/gnustep.conf to e.g. deb.gnustep.org 
>> (see https://wiki.debian.org/DebianRepository)
>> 2. download and install some GPG key
>> 3. then apt-get update
>> 4. and apt-get install gnustep
>> 5. later apt-get upgrade
>> 
>> Same can be done for Ubuntu.
>> 
>> So if you already build your own packages, why not publish them in such a 
>> repo? Incl. objc2.0?
> 
> it is public already. I use it heavily in my ulib library and all
> libraries based on top of it (such as universalss7).
> 
> Add the repo key:
> 
> wget -4 -O - http://repo.universalss7.ch/debian/key.asc |apt-key add -
> or
> apt-key adv --recv-keys --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com
> EE85CFC98EC405E3115EE86BD173212BFB27007D # UniversalSS7
> 
> add the repository to your /etc/apt/sources.list
> 
> Debian10
> deb http://repo.universalss7.ch/debian/ buster universalss7
> 
> Debian 11
> deb http://repo.universalss7.ch/debian/ bullseye universalss7
>  
> I can built for Intel and arm64
> I also built one for Ubuntu a while back.
> Not much difference.
> 
> The versions in my repo are built for my own use and thus are installed
> in /usr/local/ to not interfer with anything installed from other sources.

Good!

> I can build a release version for debian 10 or 11 if I know how the
> original packages where built.
> (what config otions etc)

That is nice!!!

So we would just need some deb.gnustep.org forwarding so that the
real repo location can be switched easily...

> 
>> 
>>> Btw who is the Debian maintainer for the gnustep builds?
>> In my proposal it could be a member of the GNUstep community so we don't 
>> have to wait
>> for someone from Debian core...
> 
> I agree but "someone from Debian core" must be someone who built it
> originally. The config of these builds is what interests me.

Ok, that can be found out through e.g. (same scheme for all other packages):

https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/gnustep-make

There is a Maintainer list on the rightmost column.
It mentions an e-mail address: pkg-gnustep-maintain...@lists.alioth.debian.org

And you can also download the files gnustep-make_2.8.0-1.dsc etc. which 
includes the config used for compilation.

Or alternatively apt-get the source package and look inside how Debian would 
build from source.

BR,
Nikolaus

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Andreas Fink]

I can set up another repository server for it easily.
I have my own hosting service so hardware is not an issue.

The question is also how often new packages should be built and how the
releases should be streamlined.
This is more an organisational question than a technical one.

Best would be if this could be automated in nightly builds or so. But
this means writing a lot of scripts to catch any errors etc.
Anyone has experience with this?


H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote on 17.12.21 11:35:
>
>> Am 17.12.2021 um 11:19 schrieb Andreas Fink :
>>
>>
>>
>> H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote on 17.12.21 10:57:
 Am 17.12.2021 um 10:33 schrieb Andreas Fink :

 packages in Debian are quite old and don't support objc2.0. So they are
 not suitable for new development.
 I always build my own packages due to that.
>>> That is why I propose the idea to provide a separate, maintained repository 
>>> outside of debian.org
>>> but compatible to it...
>>>
>>> People just
>>> 1. add some /etc/apt/sources.list.d/gnustep.conf to e.g. deb.gnustep.org 
>>> (see https://wiki.debian.org/DebianRepository)
>>> 2. download and install some GPG key
>>> 3. then apt-get update
>>> 4. and apt-get install gnustep
>>> 5. later apt-get upgrade
>>>
>>> Same can be done for Ubuntu.
>>>
>>> So if you already build your own packages, why not publish them in such a 
>>> repo? Incl. objc2.0?
>> it is public already. I use it heavily in my ulib library and all
>> libraries based on top of it (such as universalss7).
>>
>> Add the repo key:
>>
>> wget -4 -O - http://repo.universalss7.ch/debian/key.asc |apt-key add -
>> or
>> apt-key adv --recv-keys --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com
>> EE85CFC98EC405E3115EE86BD173212BFB27007D # UniversalSS7
>>
>> add the repository to your /etc/apt/sources.list
>>
>> Debian10
>> deb http://repo.universalss7.ch/debian/ buster universalss7
>>
>> Debian 11
>> deb http://repo.universalss7.ch/debian/ bullseye universalss7
>>  
>> I can built for Intel and arm64
>> I also built one for Ubuntu a while back.
>> Not much difference.
>>
>> The versions in my repo are built for my own use and thus are installed
>> in /usr/local/ to not interfer with anything installed from other sources.
> Good!
>
>> I can build a release version for debian 10 or 11 if I know how the
>> original packages where built.
>> (what config otions etc)
> That is nice!!!
>
> So we would just need some deb.gnustep.org forwarding so that the
> real repo location can be switched easily...
>
 Btw who is the Debian maintainer for the gnustep builds?
>>> In my proposal it could be a member of the GNUstep community so we don't 
>>> have to wait
>>> for someone from Debian core...
>> I agree but "someone from Debian core" must be someone who built it
>> originally. The config of these builds is what interests me.
> Ok, that can be found out through e.g. (same scheme for all other packages):
>
> https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/gnustep-make
>
> There is a Maintainer list on the rightmost column.
> It mentions an e-mail address: pkg-gnustep-maintain...@lists.alioth.debian.org
>
> And you can also download the files gnustep-make_2.8.0-1.dsc etc. which 
> includes the config used for compilation.
>
> Or alternatively apt-get the source package and look inside how Debian would 
> build from source.
>
> BR,
> Nikolaus
>
>

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Riccardo Canalicchio]

What about using github automations for building the packages?

I am not sure but i think we could also use github pages for hosting, i
found a tutorial on how to set it up but it's from 2017 not sure if it's
still valid:
https://pmateusz.github.io/linux/2017/06/30/linux-secure-apt-repository.html

Best,
Riccardo

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 at 12:34, Andreas Fink  wrote:

> I can set up another repository server for it easily.
> I have my own hosting service so hardware is not an issue.
>
> The question is also how often new packages should be built and how the
> releases should be streamlined.
> This is more an organisational question than a technical one.
>
> Best would be if this could be automated in nightly builds or so. But
> this means writing a lot of scripts to catch any errors etc.
> Anyone has experience with this?
>
>
> H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote on 17.12.21 11:35:
> >
> >> Am 17.12.2021 um 11:19 schrieb Andreas Fink :
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote on 17.12.21 10:57:
>  Am 17.12.2021 um 10:33 schrieb Andreas Fink :
> 
>  packages in Debian are quite old and don't support objc2.0. So they
> are
>  not suitable for new development.
>  I always build my own packages due to that.
> >>> That is why I propose the idea to provide a separate, maintained
> repository outside of debian.org
> >>> but compatible to it...
> >>>
> >>> People just
> >>> 1. add some /etc/apt/sources.list.d/gnustep.conf to e.g.
> deb.gnustep.org (see https://wiki.debian.org/DebianRepository)
> >>> 2. download and install some GPG key
> >>> 3. then apt-get update
> >>> 4. and apt-get install gnustep
> >>> 5. later apt-get upgrade
> >>>
> >>> Same can be done for Ubuntu.
> >>>
> >>> So if you already build your own packages, why not publish them in
> such a repo? Incl. objc2.0?
> >> it is public already. I use it heavily in my ulib library and all
> >> libraries based on top of it (such as universalss7).
> >>
> >> Add the repo key:
> >>
> >> wget -4 -O - http://repo.universalss7.ch/debian/key.asc |apt-key
> add -
> >> or
> >> apt-key adv --recv-keys --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com
> >> EE85CFC98EC405E3115EE86BD173212BFB27007D # UniversalSS7
> >>
> >> add the repository to your /etc/apt/sources.list
> >>
> >> Debian10
> >> deb http://repo.universalss7.ch/debian/ buster universalss7
> >>
> >> Debian 11
> >> deb http://repo.universalss7.ch/debian/ bullseye universalss7
> >>
> >> I can built for Intel and arm64
> >> I also built one for Ubuntu a while back.
> >> Not much difference.
> >>
> >> The versions in my repo are built for my own use and thus are installed
> >> in /usr/local/ to not interfer with anything installed from other
> sources.
> > Good!
> >
> >> I can build a release version for debian 10 or 11 if I know how the
> >> original packages where built.
> >> (what config otions etc)
> > That is nice!!!
> >
> > So we would just need some deb.gnustep.org forwarding so that the
> > real repo location can be switched easily...
> >
>  Btw who is the Debian maintainer for the gnustep builds?
> >>> In my proposal it could be a member of the GNUstep community so we
> don't have to wait
> >>> for someone from Debian core...
> >> I agree but "someone from Debian core" must be someone who built it
> >> originally. The config of these builds is what interests me.
> > Ok, that can be found out through e.g. (same scheme for all other
> packages):
> >
> > https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/gnustep-make
> >
> > There is a Maintainer list on the rightmost column.
> > It mentions an e-mail address:
> pkg-gnustep-maintain...@lists.alioth.debian.org
> >
> > And you can also download the files gnustep-make_2.8.0-1.dsc etc. which
> includes the config used for compilation.
> >
> > Or alternatively apt-get the source package and look inside how Debian
> would build from source.
> >
> > BR,
> > Nikolaus
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Xavier Brochard]

Le 17.12.2021 13:17, Liam Proven a écrit :
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 at 13:11, Xavier Brochard  
wrote:

Debian and Ubuntu based distros are the most current at end users home
to day (according to distrowatch)


I believe so. I have tried many many distros in my work and regularly
install new ones, and IMHO, Ubuntu remains about the most advanced
there is.


The problem is the desktop. GNUStep as a desktop is far from perfect 
(see past discussions).

So why not promoting a NextSpace based CD ?
NextSpace is already available for Debian, Fedora and Centos. Adding 
Ubuntu packages is not a big deal. Then we just need to packages more 
applications. It would be help everyone.


---
Librement,
Xavier Brochard xav...@alternatif.org
La liberté est à l'homme ce que les ailes sont à l'oiseau (Jean-Pierre 
Rosnay)

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Xavier Brochard]

Le 16.12.2021 17:22, Liam Proven a écrit :

I submit we need installable binary packages for at least 1 current,
mainstream Linux distro, making it as easy to get a GNUstep system up
and running as it is to get any other Linux desktop environment.


Fred Kiefer was maintaining a lot of gqood packages for OpenSuSE in the 
past

https://build.opensuse.org/project/show/X11:GNUstep


As a way of saying that GNUstep is alive and well, the best demo I can
think of is, for example, a current Ubuntu preinstalled with GNUstep &
as many GNUstep apps as possible, ready to install and use. To show
off the apps and that it is a rich and mature framework.


Debian and Ubuntu based distros are the most current at end users home 
to day (according to distrowatch)



I know, there's no "native" web browser. That is not a biggie; just
bundle Firefox. To be ambitious, take the Javascript plugin that
Ubuntu used to integrate Firefox into Unity and make it display
GNUstep style menus instead.


Fully agree. A browser is a big task to do, and need a full team to 
maintains the required plugins by today's web. Plus, it is easier to use 
the same browser on mobile phone and desktop. And mobile is currently 
near 75% of user-clients on the web. Firefox is the best for privacy.


---
Librement,
Xavier Brochard xav...@alternatif.org
La liberté est à l'homme ce que les ailes sont à l'oiseau (Jean-Pierre 
Rosnay)

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Xavier Brochard]

Le 17.12.2021 13:32, Liam Proven a écrit :
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 at 13:24, Xavier Brochard  
wrote:


The problem is the desktop. GNUStep as a desktop is far from perfect
(see past discussions).


Yes, this is true.

But on the other hand, I used LXQt for a while, and it is far from
perfect too. :-D

IMHO the only Linux desktop I ever found polished and easy without a
lot of work is Ubuntu Unity.


So why not promoting a NextSpace based CD ?


I would be very happy with that. :-)


NextSpace is already available for Debian, Fedora and Centos. Adding
Ubuntu packages is not a big deal. Then we just need to packages more
applications. It would be help everyone.


I have done a little bit of reading and research about this. Only a
little. It seemed to me that it was quite far from ready yet...


IMHO it is already better than a pure GNUStep desktop.

---
Librement,
Xavier Brochard xav...@alternatif.org
La liberté est à l'homme ce que les ailes sont à l'oiseau (Jean-Pierre 
Rosnay)

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi,

On 2021-12-17 10:33:58 +0100 Andreas Fink  wrote:

> packages in Debian are quite old and don't support objc2.0. So they are
> not suitable for new development.
> I always build my own packages due to that.
> Btw who is the Debian maintainer for the gnustep builds?

For the end-user how just wants to install the applications, which is what we 
are here discussing, doesn't care the runtime and language used, they just want 
to install and run the packages.

Also "not suitable for new development" is debatable… only if you want and need 
those features, I develop fine without.

This shows again the different needs of just a user and a developer like you.
However, you are clever enough to build your own.

Building GNUstep is actually very easy, there are scripts for that.

A possible solution would be to have a continuous build system and provide a 
debian repository, which an end-user could add and install. Skype, for example, 
is distributed that way.

Also, we could even have two versions, GCC and Clang/libobjc; this would "test 
building" in these combination which is quite interesting.

Supposing to support gcc and clang, intel 32bit 64bit, PPC 32bit and 64bit, ARM 
32bit and 64bit, would give 12 combinations, perfectly manageable. I actually 
don't know if clang works on all these systems on linux, on BSD I know it 
doesn't. We would only do that for releases of course.

We need some infrastructure for this, but could be quite useful.

Riccardo
 

-- 
Sent with GNUMail running on MacOS 10.7

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi,


On 2021-12-17 10:57:34 +0100 H. Nikolaus Schaller  
wrote:




That is why I propose the idea to provide a separate, maintained 
repository 
outside of debian.org

but compatible to it...


Exactly what I just proposed. What I don't know if how you can with 
multiple repositories offer an "overlay" of a package already existing 
in Debian.
You already have in Debian e.g. gnustep-base and GWorkspace.app but 
want to offer "yours".


The advantage, over the runtime, is that they could be packaged not 
respecting debian choices of FHS, but be packaged in gnustep layout.


Since we don't depend on systemd, I think the same packages would work 
on Debian, Devuan and Ubuntu. Could prove interesting.


Riccardo

--
Sent with GNUMail running on MacOS 10.7

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi Liam,

On 2021-12-16 17:22:07 +0100 Liam Proven  wrote:

> 
>> To my knowledge it is outdated, last referenced version I see is 2017.
> 
> That's odd. I do not see the message you're replying to in this thread.
> 
> Anyway, yes, there was a demo LiveCD, and also a (IMHO very cluttered) VM 
> image.
> 
> But that makes the system look outdated & archaic.

I agree, the last version of the LiveCD was cluttered, incomplete too and had 
issues; it was never sorted out. Also it was a very strange combination of BSD 
kernel with Debian. I would prefer one or the other.

One Step to GNUstep instead was very plished and complete, but only a VM.

The LiveCD was assembled with Debian packages, so there was the issue of 
non-present packages and release-cycles. I remember Gürkan had to fight with 
these and take compromises. It was still quite some work he did


> I submit we need installable binary packages for at least 1 current,
> mainstream Linux distro, making it as easy to get a GNUstep system up
> and running as it is to get any other Linux desktop environment.

Debian offers current packages and installing them is easy.
Gentoo does too.

> 
> No, not BSD; while I admire all the BSDs, they are not beginner-friendly OSes.

Debatable… I use all of them, and was amazed at how "easy" BSDs have become. 
True, you need not to fear the command line, but beginners are not alike, some 
are not stupid, just beginners.
NetBSD, OpenBSD carry GNUstep packages and they provide binary packages.

Installing on an Intel Laptop was a piece of cake, all setup with questions, 
then with "pkgin install xxx" "pkg 
> 
> No, *not* as a set of programming tools, although that is appealing.
> Why? Because nowhere near as many people _write_ code as _use_ code.
> 
> As a way of saying that GNUstep is alive and well, the best demo I can
> think of is, for example, a current Ubuntu preinstalled with GNUstep &
> as many GNUstep apps as possible, ready to install and use. To show
> off the apps and that it is a rich and mature framework.

That's the Idea of a LiveCD, but if you think, it is only a partial view of 
what GNUstep can, becaus eyou see only the output. However, I like the idea, 
because it is the less known part of GNUstep: a usable environment, with apps, 
etc. Unfrotunately, not of such big impact.. but it can be improved.

Most often GNustep is seeked only for its porting possibilities… so we need to 
balance tht.

Still, the LiveCD needs to carry all development tools, because it is quick to 
play with an example, like a graphical hello world.

> I know, there's no "native" web browser. That is not a biggie; just
> bundle Firefox. To be ambitious, take the Javascript plugin that
> Ubuntu used to integrate Firefox into Unity and make it display
> GNUstep style menus instead.

That could be interesting to integrate with our menus, however latest Firefox 
killed menus and post-Quantum series have really terrible menus, so I would 
just package Firefox as-is. It is becoming a UX of its own.

Riccardo

-- 
Sent with GNUMail running on MacOS 10.7

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi,

On 2021-12-17 12:33:35 +0100 Andreas Fink  wrote:

> The question is also how often new packages should be built and how the
> releases should be streamlined.

Since we are targeting end-users, I would package only released and so rebuild 
each time a release is built. However bleeding edge coul be of other use, read 
below.

> This is more an organisational question than a technical one.
> 
> Best would be if this could be automated in nightly builds or so. But
> this means writing a lot of scripts to catch any errors etc.

But these errors can be logged (like travis CI) and could be useful… more 
useful if also snapshots can be packaged.

> Anyone has experience with this?

Partially, I am doing it on Soaris right, but… there is manual work. It depends 
also on the packaging system.

Riccardo

-- 
Sent with GNUMail running on MacOS 10.7

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi,

On 2021-12-17 12:38:13 +0100 Riccardo Canalicchio 
 wrote:



What about using github automations for building the packages?

I am not sure but i think we could also use github pages for hosting, 
i
found a tutorial on how to set it up but it's from 2017 not sure if 
it's

still valid:
https://pmateusz.github.io/linux/2017/06/30/linux-secure-apt-repository.html


how will it work with a variety of sources? We don't want just 
packages on github, but als savnnah, sourceforge and other places.


on OpenCSW solaris, mgar knows how to fetch for each packages from 
different sources.


Riccardo

--
Sent with GNUMail running on MacOS 10.7

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi Xavier,

On 2021-12-17 16:15:24 +0100 Xavier Brochard  
wrote:


Fred Kiefer was maintaining a lot of gqood packages for OpenSuSE in 
the past

https://build.opensuse.org/project/show/X11:GNUstep


Yes, that was wondeful job he used to do and also helped catch errors 
with the builds!
I do not know how the impact of "use" was actually for these packages, 
that is people using GNUstep thanks to those packages?


Riccardo
--
Sent with GNUMail running on MacOS 10.7

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Xavier Brochard]

Le 17.12.2021 22:48, Riccardo Mottola a écrit :

On 2021-12-16 17:22:07 +0100 Liam Proven  wrote:
No, not BSD; while I admire all the BSDs, they are not 
beginner-friendly OSes.


Debatable… I use all of them, and was amazed at how "easy" BSDs have
become. True, you need not to fear the command line, but beginners are
not alike, some are not stupid, just beginners.


I think that GNUstep need to debate about what users they want to 
target. Young and enthusiast peoples knows Ubuntu, while more 
experienced ones have learned the free software "ecosystem". Young and 
enthusiast are students and have more free time than workers, 
experienced peoples are already busy with other projects.



I know, there's no "native" web browser. That is not a biggie; just
bundle Firefox. To be ambitious, take the Javascript plugin that
Ubuntu used to integrate Firefox into Unity and make it display
GNUstep style menus instead.


That could be interesting to integrate with our menus, however latest
Firefox killed menus


Huh ? they are still available. Just press the Alt key.


so I would just package Firefox as-is. It is becoming a UX of
its own.


It is true that users who already knows Firefox will not have trouble 
with its native UI. A GNUStep style menu can be postponed. An easy task 
for young and enthusiast people :-)


---
Librement,
Xavier Brochard xav...@alternatif.org
La liberté est à l'homme ce que les ailes sont à l'oiseau (Jean-Pierre 
Rosnay)

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Edwin Ancaer]

On FreeBSD, I think it was David Chisnall, who maintained packages for
GNUstep, and  most of the existing GNUstep applications. Everything
installed with 2 commands.

Then a FreeBSD-upgrade finally left the system in an unusable state. Not
wanting to spend another few hours to reinstall, I went to Squeak Smalltalk
on Windows.  Please don't see this as negative remark on FreeBSB or GNUstep,
but with talent and perseverance limited, it seemed the safest choice.

Op vr 17 dec. 2021 23:02 schreef Riccardo Mottola <
riccardo.mott...@libero.it>:

> Hi Xavier,
>
> On 2021-12-17 16:15:24 +0100 Xavier Brochard 
> wrote:
>
> > Fred Kiefer was maintaining a lot of gqood packages for OpenSuSE in
> > the past
> > https://build.opensuse.org/project/show/X11:GNUstep
>
> Yes, that was wondeful job he used to do and also helped catch errors
> with the builds!
> I do not know how the impact of "use" was actually for these packages,
> that is people using GNUstep thanks to those packages?
>
> Riccardo
> --
> Sent with GNUMail running on MacOS 10.7
>
>
>

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Sebastian Reitenbach]

Hi,

Am Freitag, Dezember 17, 2021 22:48 CET, schrieb Riccardo Mottola 
:

> Hi Liam,
>
> On 2021-12-16 17:22:07 +0100 Liam Proven  wrote:
>
> >
> >> To my knowledge it is outdated, last referenced version I see is 2017.
> >
> > That's odd. I do not see the message you're replying to in this thread.
> >
> > Anyway, yes, there was a demo LiveCD, and also a (IMHO very cluttered) VM
> > image.
> >
> > But that makes the system look outdated & archaic.
>
> I agree, the last version of the LiveCD was cluttered, incomplete too and had 
> issues; it was never sorted out. Also it was a very strange combination of 
> BSD kernel with Debian. I would prefer one or the other.
>
> One Step to GNUstep instead was very plished and complete, but only a VM.
>
> The LiveCD was assembled with Debian packages, so there was the issue of 
> non-present packages and release-cycles. I remember Gürkan had to fight with 
> these and take compromises. It was still quite some work he did
>
>
> > I submit we need installable binary packages for at least 1 current,
> > mainstream Linux distro, making it as easy to get a GNUstep system up
> > and running as it is to get any other Linux desktop environment.
>
> Debian offers current packages and installing them is easy.
> Gentoo does too.
>
> >
> > No, not BSD; while I admire all the BSDs, they are not beginner-friendly 
> > OSes.
>
> Debatable… I use all of them, and was amazed at how "easy" BSDs have become. 
> True, you need not to fear the command line, but beginners are not alike, 
> some are not stupid, just beginners.
> NetBSD, OpenBSD carry GNUstep packages and they provide binary packages.
> Installing on an Intel Laptop was a piece of cake, all setup with questions, 
> then with "pkgin install xxx" "pkg

On OpenBSD, it's just a two step process to get a GNUstep desktop:
sudo pkg_add gnustep
and then create/edit your .xsession:
gpbs
gdnc
wmaker &
GWorkspace

And then that's what you get with the pkg_add command:
https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/ports/meta/gnustep/Makefile?rev=1.13&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
libobjc2 is still 1.8.1, as I had quite trouble updating to newer versions, but 
the rest of it is all latest releases.

cheers,
Sebastian

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Liam Proven]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 at 22:05, Riccardo Mottola
 wrote:
>
> For the end-user how just wants to install the applications, which is what we 
> are here discussing, doesn't care the runtime and language used, they just 
> want to install and run the packages.

No, I disagree.

There remains a huge amount of interest in Linux desktops. Far more
than on any other free Unix variant.

There are old and new Win95-like desktops, using Qt (old KDE, new
LXQt), Gtk (old MATE, XFCE; new, Cinnamon), and EFL (Enlightenment,
Moksha) and other more niche toolkits such as FLTK (EDE).
There are new very-vaguely Mac or Mac OS X-like desktops, e.g.
Pantheon (Elementary OS), Unity/Lomiri/Unity X (UBPorts, Ubuntu Unity)
There are attempted independent desktops (e.g. Budgie from Solus)

There's a lot of noise out there. A lot of interest.

GNUstep also has a packaging system, which is the reason I discussed
it in my article.

If you are wondering how to "market" it _to programmers_ these days,
then I suspect the answer lies in supporting newer languages than
Obj-C.

Swift is the obvious one:
https://github.com/apple/swift-system

Ones that might interest people in RAD and so on...
• Kotlin perhaps?
• Python, obviously
• Rust and Go up to a point -- trendy but maybe not so much for GUI apps?

-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Ivan Vučica]

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 9:34 AM Andreas Fink  wrote:
>
> packages in Debian are quite old

Inaccurate.

At release times, I usually try to coordinate with Debian packagers.
This time, it took a bit longer, but uploads happened in November and
December. See links below.

Thank you, Yavor and Gurkan.

> and don't support objc2.0.

The issue here is Debian preferring to build things with GCC over Clang.

If we can convince the (very kind in their efforts) maintainers of the
packaging to try to package with Clang and libobjc2, we'd be golden.

> Btw who is the Debian maintainer for the gnustep builds?

https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/meta-gnustep
https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/gnustep-base
https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/gnustep-gui
https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/gnustep-back

and other pages.

Reach them via the mailing list. I believe Yavor and Gurkan are
subscribed to (some of) GNUstep mailing lists.

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Ivan Vučica]

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 3:48 PM Liam Proven  wrote:
> GNUstep also has a packaging system, which is the reason I discussed
> it in my article.

I'm unaware of a packaging system in GNUstep; I admit not to know of
everything or keeping up with everything in GNUstep, however.

I'm also unaware of the article being referred to; I admit not to
reading the entire (excessively long) thread. Could you kindly share
the link again?

>
> If you are wondering how to "market" it _to programmers_ these days,
> then I suspect the answer lies in supporting newer languages than
> Obj-C.

I wrote a really long reply, then somehow managed to press a keyboard
shortcut to wipe it all.

I'll try to keep it shorter: [[remark after writing the below: hah,
it's even longer]]

There aren't that many dynamic languages that can have bridges to make
proper use of the interesting things in Objective-C and GNUstep-GUI:
- classes referred to by strings (NSClassFromString)
- classes visible as (near-)equal citizens on both sides of the bridge
- bindings working correctly (I want to observe a property from a
bound GS view, update the view based on the property value, update the
property based on the user-supplied value in the view)

Languages have to have appropriate syntax, ease of registering new
classes, ease of invoking methods based on names stored in strings,
...

Otherwise, what are we porting to other languages, exactly, and why?

> Swift is the obvious one:
> https://github.com/apple/swift-system

This requires someone to be intimately familiar with Clang and LLVM,
our libobjc2 runtime, Swift itself, and the bridge Apple has built for
macOS, but (to my knowledge) not for other platforms.

There is a magician around that fits this description, but I suspect
if he were interested, he'd take a stab at it. I've no useful
knowledge in Clang, LLVM codebases; my familiarity with Swift is
minimal (peeking at it, likely quick to acquire, but as of 2021 I have
yet to find a motivating project to learn practical Swift with; why
would I spend time on it? and more importantly, if I do, I have no
motivation to dig into low level cobwebs of the language required for
implementing something like a bridge), or a development environment
(containing Clang, LLVM, ...) to produce anything resembling something
useful.

I am not a compiler developer or researcher, I am barely familiar with
the basics of how an overly simplified ObjC runtime works (hello
Metrowerks m68k runtime from the 90s) -- enough to do some weird
tricks in apps, not enough to implement this.

I also don't properly know x86 assembly or ABIs, likely required to
produce a working bridge -- or even port Apple's bridge (is it
released?) from macOS to other platforms. macOS ABIs are, to my
knowledge, also different.

Again, to summarize: This suggestion requires an extremely, extremely
specialized set of skills and I can only personally think of one
person who I suspect might be able to do it.

(Of course, if someone convinces Apple that, having ported Swift to
Linux, they could also support at least one ObjC runtime available on
Linux...)

>
> Ones that might interest people in RAD and so on...
> • Kotlin perhaps?

I have a passing familiarity with Java, but try to steer clear of JVM
languages. Does JIGS bridge to Java still work and does it also make
GNUstep libraries work with Kotlin, as well?

> • Python, obviously

Someone announced PyObjC a few years ago.

> • Rust and Go up to a point -- trendy but maybe not so much for GUI apps?

I am unfamiliar with Rust, but a few words on Go. Simplified, likely
inaccurate, but possibly worth sharing.

Goroutines, channels and GC work with a runtime. It takes control over
the entire process. Jumping into C is possible and supported -- but
discouraged. You can define C functions callable from Go, and you can
call Go functions from C -- but this messes with the scheduler.

Our GNUstep-GUI would not have a good time getting stuck in there,
with its runloop etc.

And this is without taking into account that Go is rather... static.
No "I will load a .dylib/.so and a bunch of classes will appear and be
magically reachable with NSClassFromString, which is passable as the
receiver in the [message send:] expression". Reflection packages are
there, so you can refer to a type dynamically -- but you can't write
code "I will load this and you just trust me the message send will
work at runtime". Yes, hackable with interfaces and reflection, but
not Go-like.

Go also has no real inheritance.

None of this is a problem if you're using Go for what it's meant to be
used. It's an improved C, but improved in a different way, for a
concurrent world.

This is not what ObjC is great for (which is UIs and bindings, while
still using C or -- gasp -- C++). Specifying which NSDocument class
you want to load for a particular document type just seems silly. And
bending our backs to port a system that works great for Objective-C
(GNUstep-Base, -GUI) into Go when it's just g

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Liam Proven]

On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 23:01, Ivan Vučica  wrote:
>
>
> I'm unaware of a packaging system in GNUstep; I admit not to know of
> everything or keeping up with everything in GNUstep, however.
>
> I'm also unaware of the article being referred to; I admit not to
> reading the entire (excessively long) thread. Could you kindly share
> the link again?

To my piece? Sure.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/26/linux_software_installation/

It is not about GNUstep; it merely mentions it.

Re your other points, all very well-argued, I think, and thanks for the info.


-- 
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Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Gregory Casamento]

“Ironically, Linux could easily have had much the same because all the
functionality already exists in GNUstep , the
venerable FOSS rewrite of NeXTstep's core libraries.“

Liam,

Excellent article, but I have to say that saying  GNUstep as an
implementation of NeXTSTEP is half our issue.   It would be better to say
it is an implementation of Cocoa.

GC





On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 17:15 Liam Proven  wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 23:01, Ivan Vučica  wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm unaware of a packaging system in GNUstep; I admit not to know of
> > everything or keeping up with everything in GNUstep, however.
> >
> > I'm also unaware of the article being referred to; I admit not to
> > reading the entire (excessively long) thread. Could you kindly share
> > the link again?
>
> To my piece? Sure.
>
> https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/26/linux_software_installation/
>
> It is not about GNUstep; it merely mentions it.
>
> Re your other points, all very well-argued, I think, and thanks for the
> info.
>
>
> --
> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
> UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420)
> 702-829-053
>
> --
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Ivan Vučica]

Well, some parts of.

On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 11:07 PM Gregory Casamento
 wrote:
>
> “Ironically, Linux could easily have had much the same because all the 
> functionality already exists in GNUstep, the venerable FOSS rewrite of 
> NeXTstep's core libraries.“
>
> Liam,
>
> Excellent article, but I have to say that saying  GNUstep as an 
> implementation of NeXTSTEP is half our issue.   It would be better to say it 
> is an implementation of Cocoa.
>
> GC
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 17:15 Liam Proven  wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 23:01, Ivan Vučica  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm unaware of a packaging system in GNUstep; I admit not to know of
>> > everything or keeping up with everything in GNUstep, however.
>> >
>> > I'm also unaware of the article being referred to; I admit not to
>> > reading the entire (excessively long) thread. Could you kindly share
>> > the link again?
>>
>> To my piece? Sure.
>>
>> https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/26/linux_software_installation/
>>
>> It is not about GNUstep; it merely mentions it.
>>
>> Re your other points, all very well-argued, I think, and thanks for the info.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
>> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
>> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
>> UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 
>> 702-829-053
>>
> --
> Gregory Casamento
> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
> https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
> https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Gregory Casamento]

On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 18:13 Ivan Vučica  wrote:

> Well, some parts of.


Apparently you haven’t looked lately.


>
> On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 11:07 PM Gregory Casamento
>  wrote:
> >
> > “Ironically, Linux could easily have had much the same because all the
> functionality already exists in GNUstep, the venerable FOSS rewrite of
> NeXTstep's core libraries.“
> >
> > Liam,
> >
> > Excellent article, but I have to say that saying  GNUstep as an
> implementation of NeXTSTEP is half our issue.   It would be better to say
> it is an implementation of Cocoa.
> >
> > GC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 17:15 Liam Proven  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 23:01, Ivan Vučica  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I'm unaware of a packaging system in GNUstep; I admit not to know of
> >> > everything or keeping up with everything in GNUstep, however.
> >> >
> >> > I'm also unaware of the article being referred to; I admit not to
> >> > reading the entire (excessively long) thread. Could you kindly share
> >> > the link again?
> >>
> >> To my piece? Sure.
> >>
> >> https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/26/linux_software_installation/
> >>
> >> It is not about GNUstep; it merely mentions it.
> >>
> >> Re your other points, all very well-argued, I think, and thanks for the
> info.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> >> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
> >> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
> >> UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420)
> 702-829-053
> >>
> > --
> > Gregory Casamento
> > GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
> > http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
> > https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
> > https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
> > https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store
>
-- 
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Gregory Casamento]

Also NeXTSTEP is NOT what we are aiming for.

On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 18:13 Ivan Vučica  wrote:

> Well, some parts of.
>
> On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 11:07 PM Gregory Casamento
>  wrote:
> >
> > “Ironically, Linux could easily have had much the same because all the
> functionality already exists in GNUstep, the venerable FOSS rewrite of
> NeXTstep's core libraries.“
> >
> > Liam,
> >
> > Excellent article, but I have to say that saying  GNUstep as an
> implementation of NeXTSTEP is half our issue.   It would be better to say
> it is an implementation of Cocoa.
> >
> > GC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 17:15 Liam Proven  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 23:01, Ivan Vučica  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I'm unaware of a packaging system in GNUstep; I admit not to know of
> >> > everything or keeping up with everything in GNUstep, however.
> >> >
> >> > I'm also unaware of the article being referred to; I admit not to
> >> > reading the entire (excessively long) thread. Could you kindly share
> >> > the link again?
> >>
> >> To my piece? Sure.
> >>
> >> https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/26/linux_software_installation/
> >>
> >> It is not about GNUstep; it merely mentions it.
> >>
> >> Re your other points, all very well-argued, I think, and thanks for the
> info.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> >> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
> >> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
> >> UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420)
> 702-829-053
> >>
> > --
> > Gregory Casamento
> > GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
> > http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
> > https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
> > https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
> > https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store
>
-- 
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Hugo Melder]

Cocoa is not only AppKit but also the CoreGraphics and CoreData Integration. We 
have no upstream Integration for the newer frameworks.

On December 23, 2021 1:01:43 AM GMT+01:00, Gregory Casamento 
 wrote:
>On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 18:13 Ivan Vučica  wrote:
>
>> Well, some parts of.
>
>
>Apparently you haven’t looked lately.
>
>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 11:07 PM Gregory Casamento
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > “Ironically, Linux could easily have had much the same because all the
>> functionality already exists in GNUstep, the venerable FOSS rewrite of
>> NeXTstep's core libraries.“
>> >
>> > Liam,
>> >
>> > Excellent article, but I have to say that saying  GNUstep as an
>> implementation of NeXTSTEP is half our issue.   It would be better to say
>> it is an implementation of Cocoa.
>> >
>> > GC
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 17:15 Liam Proven  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 23:01, Ivan Vučica  wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm unaware of a packaging system in GNUstep; I admit not to know of
>> >> > everything or keeping up with everything in GNUstep, however.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm also unaware of the article being referred to; I admit not to
>> >> > reading the entire (excessively long) thread. Could you kindly share
>> >> > the link again?
>> >>
>> >> To my piece? Sure.
>> >>
>> >> https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/26/linux_software_installation/
>> >>
>> >> It is not about GNUstep; it merely mentions it.
>> >>
>> >> Re your other points, all very well-argued, I think, and thanks for the
>> info.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
>> >> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
>> >> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
>> >> UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420)
>> 702-829-053
>> >>
>> > --
>> > Gregory Casamento
>> > GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
>> > http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
>> > https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
>> > https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
>> > https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store
>>
>-- 
>Gregory Casamento
>GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
>http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
>https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
>https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
>https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Xavier Brochard]

Le 22.12.2021 23:00, Ivan Vučica a écrit :

I mean here's a realistic wishlist:

- A desktop session
  - ship a package that contains
/usr/share/xsessions/gnustep-desktop.desktop e.g. 'gnustep-session' or
'gnustep-desktop-session'
  - have it start our chosen WM, gworkspace with dock, a global
dbusmenu compatible menu, etc


If GNUStep wants to delegate the desktop to other projects, the best 
gnustep-desktop-session would be one of those projects. Curently a pure 
GNUStep session doesn't demonstrate its power, quite the opposite. Have 
a look at Serjii's work: building NextSpace was/is a lot of work, and 
required changes to WM and GSWorkspace.


---
Librement,
Xavier Brochard xav...@alternatif.org
La liberté est à l'homme ce que les ailes sont à l'oiseau (Jean-Pierre 
Rosnay)

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Gregory Casamento]

Hugo,

Yes, I know this.   The point is that between Foundation and AppKit, almost
all of the classes and methods which were missing (up to 10.15) have been
written by myself and others over the last few years.

We have a CoreData, and CoreGraphics (Opal) implementation, granted the
last two are less complete.

Yours, GC

On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 3:59 AM Hugo Melder  wrote:

> Cocoa is not only AppKit but also the CoreGraphics and CoreData
> Integration. We have no upstream Integration for the newer frameworks.
>
> On December 23, 2021 1:01:43 AM GMT+01:00, Gregory Casamento <
> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 18:13 Ivan Vučica  wrote:
>>
>>> Well, some parts of.
>>
>>
>> Apparently you haven’t looked lately.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 11:07 PM Gregory Casamento
>>>  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > “Ironically, Linux could easily have had much the same because all the
>>> functionality already exists in GNUstep, the venerable FOSS rewrite of
>>> NeXTstep's core libraries.“
>>> >
>>> > Liam,
>>> >
>>> > Excellent article, but I have to say that saying  GNUstep as an
>>> implementation of NeXTSTEP is half our issue.   It would be better to say
>>> it is an implementation of Cocoa.
>>> >
>>> > GC
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 17:15 Liam Proven  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 23:01, Ivan Vučica  wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I'm unaware of a packaging system in GNUstep; I admit not to know of
>>> >> > everything or keeping up with everything in GNUstep, however.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I'm also unaware of the article being referred to; I admit not to
>>> >> > reading the entire (excessively long) thread. Could you kindly share
>>> >> > the link again?
>>> >>
>>> >> To my piece? Sure.
>>> >>
>>> >> https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/26/linux_software_installation/
>>> >>
>>> >> It is not about GNUstep; it merely mentions it.
>>> >>
>>> >> Re your other points, all very well-argued, I think, and thanks for
>>> the info.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
>>> >> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
>>> >> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
>>> >> UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420)
>>> 702-829-053
>>> >>
>>> > --
>>> > Gregory Casamento
>>> > GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
>>> > http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
>>> > https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
>>> > https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
>>> > https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store
>>>
>> --
>> Gregory Casamento
>> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
>> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
>> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
>> https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
>> https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store
>>
>

-- 
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Liam Proven]

On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 at 00:07, Gregory Casamento
 wrote:
>
> Excellent article, but I have to say that saying  GNUstep as an 
> implementation of NeXTSTEP is half our issue.   It would be better to say it 
> is an implementation of Cocoa.

Thank you!

It was only a brief mention and the piece was getting over-long
anyway. I feel that the term Cocoa is not well-enough known, nor would
something like "Yellow Box" or something be either. I had just talked
about how macOS bundles apps into special folders, how it had
inherited this from its ancestor NeXTstep, so I thought it was fair to
continue that line by saying that there's a FOSS re-implementation of
that stuff.

Is the .app folder bundle format part of Cocoa, the API, anyway?

-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Gregory Casamento]

Liam,


On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 7:31 PM Liam Proven  wrote:

> On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 at 00:07, Gregory Casamento
>  wrote:
> >
> > Excellent article, but I have to say that saying  GNUstep as an
> implementation of NeXTSTEP is half our issue.   It would be better to say
> it is an implementation of Cocoa.
>
> Thank you!
>
> It was only a brief mention and the piece was getting over-long
> anyway. I feel that the term Cocoa is not well-enough known, nor would
>

???  I'm wondering why Cocoa wouldn't be well known.

> something like "Yellow Box" or something be either. I had just talked
> about how macOS bundles apps into special folders, how it had
> inherited this from its ancestor NeXTstep, so I thought it was fair to
> continue that line by saying that there's a FOSS re-implementation of
> that stuff.
>

Of Cocoa. :)   My point was, from reading the article, if someone doesn't
know the heritage of Cocoa, then they will read that as "GNUstep is a clone
of NeXTSTEP."


>
> Is the .app folder bundle format part of Cocoa, the API, anyway?
>
>
Part of the API?  Not necessarily, but part of the OS, yes, absolutely.
macOS/Cocoa still uses it.

-- 
> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
> UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420)
> 702-829-053
>
>
Yours, GC
-- 
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron
https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe
https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Liam Proven]

On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 at 13:31, Gregory Casamento
 wrote:
>
> ???  I'm wondering why Cocoa wouldn't be well known.

As I always keep saying: my interest (here, there are others!) is
operating systems, and the article was about software packaging for
Linux distributions and the subsequent piece was about how the
evolution of packaging tools is influencing the development and
construction of Linux distros.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/12/03/nixos_linux_os_design/

Remember, altho' I know that for the majority of the small GNUstep
community, it's a framework for app developers, a tool for
programmers, it is also more than that. As a proportion of the
computer-using human race, not many people are programmers. Most just
use computers, they don't program them.

A lot of Linux users are interested in look and feel. They enjoy
customising their OSes, trying different ones, changing UIs and
desktops. They can't program and they're not interested in
programming.

Cocoa is a codename for an API for a proprietary OS for proprietary
hardware. These days it's the only API and the OS has abandoned 32-bit
platforms and no longer offers the other API, Carbon; the name Cocoa
was one of a pair of codenames, Cocoa and Carbon, for a triplet of
APIs.

Cocao for Yellow Box, Carbon for Blue Box, and the now-forgotten Red
Box for running Windows apps on Rhapsody:
https://lowendmac.com/1997/red-box-blue-box-yellow-box/

And the Java API too, also now gone because it was farmed out to
Oracle after Oracle bought Sun.

These are historical terms now, and they're only interesting or
relevant to programmers on the Apple platform.

If you search Apple.com for the word Cocoa you get a 2013 document
with a warning on it that it is archived historical content:
https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/CocoaFundamentals/WhatIsCocoa/WhatIsCocoa.html

NeXTstep remains relatively widely-known and respected as the OS that
was the ancestor of macOS.

There are emulators to run it:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/previous/

There are docs explaining how to run the Intel version in a VM:
http://stuffjasondoes.com/2018/07/25/installing-nextstep-os-openstep-on-virtualbox-in-2018/

There is or was a NeXTstep GUI for Windows:
http://litestep.net/

There are multiple NeXTstep-like window managers for free xNix OSes,
including Window Maker, OpenBox, BlackBox, FluxBox and others.

NeXTstep is a thing in the public consciousness. It is something a
reasonably well-informed techie has probably heard of. It's Steve
Jobs' pet project before he returned to Apple.

Cocoa is an obsolete codename for a tool for programmers. It is not
well-known to the general public, to whom it means a hot drink or the
stuff chocolate is made from.

So I submit it is a *much* less useful word.

> Of Cocoa. :)   My point was, from reading the article, if someone doesn't 
> know the heritage of Cocoa, then they will read that as "GNUstep is a clone 
> of NeXTSTEP."

Which, to a non-programmer, it is.

>> Is the .app folder bundle format part of Cocoa, the API, anyway?
>
> Part of the API?  Not necessarily, but part of the OS, yes, absolutely.  
> macOS/Cocoa still uses it.

So it's not part of Cocoa as an API, and therefore, using the word
Cocoa at this point and in that context would have in fact been
unhelpful and misleading.

-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi,

Ivan Vučica wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 3:48 PM Liam Proven  wrote:
>> GNUstep also has a packaging system, which is the reason I discussed
>> it in my article.
> I'm unaware of a packaging system in GNUstep; I admit not to know of
> everything or keeping up with everything in GNUstep, however.

I was about to ask! To my knowledge GNUstep by itself has no packaging
system!
When living on an existing sytem it should be capable of using it (e.g.
debian packages, gentoo packages, NetBSD packages...).

GAP has a long discussed "installer" which should mimic what NeXT and
Apple do with receipes, but it was never started, because of many
"doubts" never solved and the benefit of having it being interesting for
a GNUstep native distribution.

Some hot topics are:
- handling of multi-architecture (e.g. "fat installers" or many packages?)
- handling of root privileges - we don't have an easy way to upgrade the
running user, e.g. type in your password and use sudo to install or
something like that.

Riccardo

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi,

Gregory Casamento wrote:
> Also NeXTSTEP is NOT what we are aiming for. 

just to nitpick - at most OpenStep / OPENSTEP; also in that case we
moved forward with an eye to Cocoa.

While NeXT was the same company, NeXTSTEP really was an older version of
the framework which we follow in "spirit and looks" but are incompatible
API-wise with.

Riccardo

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Gregory Casamento]

Liam,

On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 8:54 AM Liam Proven  wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 at 13:31, Gregory Casamento
>  wrote:
> >
> > ???  I'm wondering why Cocoa wouldn't be well known.
>
> As I always keep saying: my interest (here, there are others!) is
> operating systems, and the article was about software packaging for
> Linux distributions and the subsequent piece was about how the
> evolution of packaging tools is influencing the development and
> cons  truction of Linux distros.
>
> https://www.theregister.com/2021/12/03/nixos_linux_os_design/
>
> Remember, altho' I know that for the majority of the small GNUstep
> community, it's a framework for app developers, a tool for
> programmers, it is also more than that. As a proportion of the
> computer-using human race, not many people are programmers. Most just
> use computers, they don't program them.
>

What I think we need to do is come up with a reference distro.

A lot of Linux users are interested in look and feel. They enjoy
> customising their OSes, trying different ones, changing UIs and
> desktops. They can't program and they're not interested in
> programming.
>

Right, but characterizing GNUstep by comparing it to an OS that has a look
that nearly everyone has recognized as being obsolete does nothing to help
GNUstep in the long run.  While I understand what you're saying your view
is not the common one.  Most programmers AND non-programmers view it very
much in the way I am saying.  I know this because after going to many
conventions to speak about GNUstep the feedback I invariably got was about
the look.  No matter HOW much I told people that we were following Cocoa's
APIs it didn't matter... because we looked like NEXTSTEP we, in their
minds, only implemented NEXTSTEP.

Cocoa is a codename for an API for a proprietary OS for proprietary
> hardware. These days it's the only API and the OS has abandoned 32-bit
> platforms and no longer offers the other API, Carbon; the name Cocoa
> was one of a pair of codenames, Cocoa and Carbon, for a triplet of
> APIs.
>
> [Cocoa] for Yellow Box, Carbon for Blue Box, and the now-forgotten Red
> Box for running Windows apps on Rhapsody:
> https://lowendmac.com/1997/red-box-blue-box-yellow-box/
>

I recall these.  I also remember Red-box... I was hoping there would be
some way to run Windows apps, but I believe they decided not to do that
since it would have placed an extra burden on the development teams.

And the Java API too, also now gone because it was farmed out to
> Oracle after Oracle bought Sun.
>

I think the reason it was abandoned is that ObjC adopted ARC which is not
compatible with garbage collection.   This is the reason why the ruby
bridge was also abandoned.


> These are historical terms now, and they're only interesting or
> relevant to programmers on the Apple platform.
>
> If you search Apple.com for the word Cocoa you get a 2013 document
> with a warning on it that it is archived historical content:
>
> https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/CocoaFundamentals/WhatIsCocoa/WhatIsCocoa.html
>
> NeXTstep remains relatively widely-known and respected as the OS that
> was the ancestor of macOS.
>
> There are emulators to run it:
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/previous/
>
> There are docs explaining how to run the Intel version in a VM:
>
> http://stuffjasondoes.com/2018/07/25/installing-nextstep-os-openstep-on-virtualbox-in-2018/
>
> There is or was a NeXTstep GUI for Windows:
> http://litestep.net/


It's funny I didn't know about this one.

> There are multiple NeXTstep-like window managers for free xNix OSes,
> including Window Maker, OpenBox, BlackBox, FluxBox and others.
>
> NeXTstep is a thing in the public consciousness. It is something a
> reasonably well-informed techie has probably heard of. It's Steve
> Jobs' pet project before he returned to Apple.
>
> Cocoa is an obsolete codename for a tool for programmers. It is not
> well-known to the general public, to whom it means a hot drink or the
> stuff chocolate is made from.
>
> So I submit it is a *much* less useful word.
>

And NeXTSTEP or OPENSTEP is somehow NOT OBSOLETE!?  I submit that those are
even LESS useful if Cocoa is, as you say, less useful.

> Of Cocoa. :)   My point was, from reading the article, if someone doesn't
> know the heritage of Cocoa, then they will read that as "GNUstep is a clone
> of NeXTSTEP."
>
> Which, to a non-programmer, it is.
>

Part of the issue here is that non-programmers believe this and think it's
dead because our DEFAULT look is NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP like.   Let me say
this... who gives a hoot WHAT the default is when the theme is so flexible
it can be made to look like anything.


> >> Is the .app folder bundle format part of Cocoa, the API, anyway?
> >
> > Part of the API?  Not necessarily, but part of the OS, yes, absolutely.
> macOS/Cocoa still uses it.
>
> So it's not part of Cocoa as an API, and therefore, using the word
> Cocoa at this point and in that 

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Yavor Doganov]

On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 22:54:32 +0200,
Ivan Vučica wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 9:34 AM Andreas Fink  wrote:
> > packages in Debian are quite old
> 
> Inaccurate.

It is both accurate and inaccurate.  More precisely, at times it is
accurate and at times it is inaccurate; it also depends what Debian
release you use for comparison.  It is inevitable that a stable
release at some point starts qualifiying as one one with "old" or even
"quite old" packages, even with best of our effort.

> At release times, I usually try to coordinate with Debian packagers.
> This time, it took a bit longer, but uploads happened in November and
> December.

This is my personal fault; I failed to coordinate with you and inform
in advance about Debian's release schedule so the current GNUstep core
releases happened at a time we couldn't include them in the current
Debian stable release (bullseye).  Then I was waiting for my sponsor
for more than 6 months for the upload of gnustep-make and subsequently
current GNUstep releases were introduced in Debian unstable with a
great delay.

> > and don't support objc2.0.
> 
> The issue here is Debian preferring to build things with GCC over
> Clang.

I'm quite certain that I've explained at least once in great detail
why this is so, on this list.  As there are still questions popping up
here and there, I intend to write a specific chapter regarding this
subject in the not-yet-finished Debian GNUstep team policy document.
It will be installable as a Debian package and the repository will be
public, like almost everything in Debian.

> If we can convince the (very kind in their efforts) maintainers of
> the packaging to try to package with Clang and libobjc2, we'd be
> golden.

The thing is, Debian is no longer a distro where a member of the
project can upload its pet package and keep it under custody until he
is formally declared maintainer.  Packages are being aggressively
removed nowadays, on the grounds of being obsolete, unpopular,
unmaintained, or with unresponsive upstream.  We fought hard with the
Debian stweards some 15 years ago for GNUstep to remain and I foresee
more battles on the horizon.

The automatic reaction of these people is to "get rid" and that's
natural.  From a Debian ftpmaster POV, a change which requires plenty
of manual action + coordination between teams and does not bring any
real benefit to the current packages is a poor change.

> I believe Yavor and Gurkan are subscribed to (some of) GNUstep
> mailing lists.

FWIW, I'm reading all GNUstep lists + (Savannah) bug traffic +
(GitHub) commit notifications + GAP + (not sure) gnustep-nonfsf.  I'm
only subscribed to some of them though, the bulk of it I follow via
Usenet (Gmane), sometimes with delay.

Re: GNUstep on Hackernews

[Daniel Boyd]

Given these constraints, seems like a GNUStep-maintained apt repository is the 
answer, right? If you want the GCC packages, you can get them from Debian. If 
you want libobjc2/clang packages, you install the GNUStep apt repository.

I remember seeing the idea of an apt repository discussed awhile back. Is that 
still in the works? It would make deploying apps in my company a bit easier. 
I’ve got a script that clones all the code from github and compiles everything, 
but that does take a bit and would be nice for updates to be pushed out via apt.

> 
> On Dec 28, 2021, at 5:13 PM, Yavor Doganov  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 22:54:32 +0200,
> Ivan Vučica wrote:
>>> On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 9:34 AM Andreas Fink  wrote:
>>> packages in Debian are quite old
>> 
>> Inaccurate.
> 
> It is both accurate and inaccurate.  More precisely, at times it is
> accurate and at times it is inaccurate; it also depends what Debian
> release you use for comparison.  It is inevitable that a stable
> release at some point starts qualifiying as one one with "old" or even
> "quite old" packages, even with best of our effort.
> 
>> At release times, I usually try to coordinate with Debian packagers.
>> This time, it took a bit longer, but uploads happened in November and
>> December.
> 
> This is my personal fault; I failed to coordinate with you and inform
> in advance about Debian's release schedule so the current GNUstep core
> releases happened at a time we couldn't include them in the current
> Debian stable release (bullseye).  Then I was waiting for my sponsor
> for more than 6 months for the upload of gnustep-make and subsequently
> current GNUstep releases were introduced in Debian unstable with a
> great delay.
> 
>>> and don't support objc2.0.
>> 
>> The issue here is Debian preferring to build things with GCC over
>> Clang.
> 
> I'm quite certain that I've explained at least once in great detail
> why this is so, on this list.  As there are still questions popping up
> here and there, I intend to write a specific chapter regarding this
> subject in the not-yet-finished Debian GNUstep team policy document.
> It will be installable as a Debian package and the repository will be
> public, like almost everything in Debian.
> 
>> If we can convince the (very kind in their efforts) maintainers of
>> the packaging to try to package with Clang and libobjc2, we'd be
>> golden.
> 
> The thing is, Debian is no longer a distro where a member of the
> project can upload its pet package and keep it under custody until he
> is formally declared maintainer.  Packages are being aggressively
> removed nowadays, on the grounds of being obsolete, unpopular,
> unmaintained, or with unresponsive upstream.  We fought hard with the
> Debian stweards some 15 years ago for GNUstep to remain and I foresee
> more battles on the horizon.
> 
> The automatic reaction of these people is to "get rid" and that's
> natural.  From a Debian ftpmaster POV, a change which requires plenty
> of manual action + coordination between teams and does not bring any
> real benefit to the current packages is a poor change.
> 
>> I believe Yavor and Gurkan are subscribed to (some of) GNUstep
>> mailing lists.
> 
> FWIW, I'm reading all GNUstep lists + (Savannah) bug traffic +
> (GitHub) commit notifications + GAP + (not sure) gnustep-nonfsf.  I'm
> only subscribed to some of them though, the bulk of it I follow via
> Usenet (Gmane), sometimes with delay.
> 
>