Re: App Engine port

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 11:51 PM, David Stenglein
 wrote:
>
> I have to ask a question here. Why is there such reticence regarding
> App Engine? It would
> seem to me that App Engine has been a feather in the cap for Django. A
> lot of people don't know Django and at a previous job, I was able to
> say that "Google chose django" for App Engine to help validate my use
> of it.

Reticence isn't a particularly accurate description of the situation.
The Django Core developers are all volunteers, so our time is limited.
We work on the things that scratch our particular itches. Speaking
personally (and I suspect the same is probably true of the rest of the
core developers), I don't have a lot of use for App Engine at the
moment, and I have a lot of other pressing concerns, so I'm not
spending a lot of personal time on the problem.

For me, App Engine is in a similar camp to Python 3: a very
interesting idea, but not a development priority _right now_. Given
time, I expect this to change (commercial hosts will start providing
Python 3 support/Google will take App Engine out of preview and into
full release), but for the moment, I have a lot of other issues that
affect me on a daily basis, and are therefore much more compelling for
me to work on.

That said, if Google (or anyone else, for that matter) wants to throw
some engineers at addressing this issue, we will gratefully accept the
assistance. We are in no way opposed to improving App Engine support.
If a well designed, well written patch were to arrive on our doorstep
today, I suspect you would find that patch in Django's trunk in short
order.

> It may be coincidental, but I thought that a regularized release
> schedule (rather than just "use SVN") seemed to come about after the
> App Engine announcement.

This was complete coincidence. Our v1.0 timeline was decided upon
independent of any App Engine announcement or plans. Google hasn't
actively engaged the Django community to coordinate release plans,
schedules, or feature lists.

> Has App Engine created a noticeable increase in developers interested
> in using Django?

There has certainly been some interest from App Engine that flows into
Django. You don't have to hang out on Django-users for too long to
find questions that reference App Engine.

> If so, why the seeming lack of excitement around App Engine?

This question presupposes that there should be excitement. Rephrasing
the question, why should we be excited?

On the one hand - the tools they are exposing (BigTable, easy
deployment environment, etc) are very exciting developments, and they
clearly work well for Google itself.

However, it's not like Apache and *SQL installations are going to go
away overnight. There are some very good reasons to _not_ use App
Engine - not the least of which is the fact that Google lists App
Engine as a "preview" product (it doesn't even make it to Googles
infamous "Beta" stage :-). At the moment, the vast majority of
Django's audience (and 100% of the audience that pays my salary)
aren't using App Engine, and wouldn't be able to (for commercial
reasons) even if they wanted to.

Yes, it's flattering to have one of the largest software companies in
the world using Django. However, that doesn't mean that the Django
Core developers are all going to drop everything and make App Engine
their development priority.

> Are
> google engineers not involved in the community?

There are a few tickets in Django's ticket tracker that I know have
come from Google engineers, but those individuals haven't made any big
noises about App Engine support. By way of evidence: when the v1.1
feature suggestion list was opened, nobody suggested App Engine
support as a potential feature.

Django is an open source project. If Google wants App Engine support
in Django, they're free to engage with the community and make it
happen. If any other company wants App Engine Support in Django,
they're free to engage with the community and make it happen. If any
individual wants App Engine Support in Django, they're free to engage
with the community and make it happen. If you're not willing to write
the code yourself, then you either need to convince someone to engage
with the community and make it happen, pay someone to engage with the
community and make it happen, or wait until it becomes a big enough
itch for someone that it gets scratched.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: App Engine port

[James Bennett]

On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:51 AM, David Stenglein
 wrote:
> I have to ask a question here. Why is there such reticence regarding
> App Engine?

I'm curious as to what reticence you think there is; since, as Russell
said, code to get a straight Django with all features working on App
Engine would be welcome, I don't really get the same vibe. The only
thing is that we're past the point where major features like this can
be proposed for Django 1.1; we're aleady a bit behind schedule getting
out the first alpha release, and delaying it even further isn't
something we can do at the moment.


-- 
"Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct -- the best kind of correct."

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: App Engine port

[David Stenglein]

I have to ask a question here. Why is there such reticence regarding
App Engine? It would
seem to me that App Engine has been a feather in the cap for Django. A
lot of people don't know Django and at a previous job, I was able to
say that "Google chose django" for App Engine to help validate my use
of it.

I just glanced at the app engine project page and there is even an
article about porting your apps to run in any standard Django
environment.

It may be coincidental, but I thought that a regularized release
schedule (rather than just "use SVN") seemed to come about after the
App Engine announcement.

Has App Engine created a noticeable increase in developers interested
in using Django?

If so, why the seeming lack of excitement around App Engine? Are
google engineers not involved in the community?

Sorry to be posing so many questions, but I've found this aspect of
Django development particularly puzzling.

-Dave


On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:10 AM, Russell Keith-Magee
 wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Waldemar Kornewald  
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Russell,
>>
>> On 6 Feb., 11:34, Russell Keith-Magee  wrote:
>>> I would suggest to you that the broader project of "modifying the
>>> django.db.models interface to be fully independent of SQL" is much
>>> more likely to get core developer support. We (the Django core) will
>>> be very receptive to any suggestions on how django.db.models needs to
>>> be modified in order to support non-SQL backends -- especially if you
>>> can demonstrate that your suggestions aren't just theoretical, but are
>>> clearly required by an actual backend implementation.
>>
>> Agreed, making models SQL-independent is the most important (and most
>> complicated) part. Do the people secretly working on App Engine
>> integration try to implement that part?
>
> I haven't seen their code, so I can't say for certain, but I imagine
> that they have a small collection of patches for the main Django tree
> that enables their backend to be independent of SQL.
>
>>> If you are maintaining an external project handling AppEngine support
>>> for Django, then that project's wiki is the right place for
>>> documentation about AppEngine support within Django. While AppEngine
>>> support isn't part of Django's core, Django's wiki isn't the right
>>> place to be providing AppEngine specific instructions - especially if
>>> the first instruction is "install this third party project that isn't
>>> formally affiliated with the Django project at this time".
>>
>> I can't find anything like that in my wiki page. It describes what is
>> necessary for a completely new port that has practically nothing to do
>> with app-engine-patch apart from being able to reuse some of the
>> existing code. It could be useful for any porting effort. If I keep it
>> in my wiki nobody else can work on that page. It's almost useless that
>> way.
>
> Ok - sounds like they could be some good contributions. I just wanted
> to make sure you were not planning on making the Django wiki the home
> of the "how to use app-engine-patch" documentation.
>
> Yours,
> Russ Magee %-)
>
> >
>

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: App Engine port

[Waldemar Kornewald]

On 6 Feb., 13:10, Russell Keith-Magee  wrote:
> Ok - sounds like they could be some good contributions. I just wanted
> to make sure you were not planning on making the Django wiki the home
> of the "how to use app-engine-patch" documentation.

Hmm, now that you mention it, this sounds like an interesting idea. :p

I've moved the document here:
http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/AppEngine

Bye,
Waldemar Kornewald
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: App Engine port

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Waldemar Kornewald  wrote:
>
> Hi Russell,
>
> On 6 Feb., 11:34, Russell Keith-Magee  wrote:
>> I would suggest to you that the broader project of "modifying the
>> django.db.models interface to be fully independent of SQL" is much
>> more likely to get core developer support. We (the Django core) will
>> be very receptive to any suggestions on how django.db.models needs to
>> be modified in order to support non-SQL backends -- especially if you
>> can demonstrate that your suggestions aren't just theoretical, but are
>> clearly required by an actual backend implementation.
>
> Agreed, making models SQL-independent is the most important (and most
> complicated) part. Do the people secretly working on App Engine
> integration try to implement that part?

I haven't seen their code, so I can't say for certain, but I imagine
that they have a small collection of patches for the main Django tree
that enables their backend to be independent of SQL.

>> If you are maintaining an external project handling AppEngine support
>> for Django, then that project's wiki is the right place for
>> documentation about AppEngine support within Django. While AppEngine
>> support isn't part of Django's core, Django's wiki isn't the right
>> place to be providing AppEngine specific instructions - especially if
>> the first instruction is "install this third party project that isn't
>> formally affiliated with the Django project at this time".
>
> I can't find anything like that in my wiki page. It describes what is
> necessary for a completely new port that has practically nothing to do
> with app-engine-patch apart from being able to reuse some of the
> existing code. It could be useful for any porting effort. If I keep it
> in my wiki nobody else can work on that page. It's almost useless that
> way.

Ok - sounds like they could be some good contributions. I just wanted
to make sure you were not planning on making the Django wiki the home
of the "how to use app-engine-patch" documentation.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: App Engine port

[Waldemar Kornewald]

Hi Russell,

On 6 Feb., 11:34, Russell Keith-Magee  wrote:
> I would suggest to you that the broader project of "modifying the
> django.db.models interface to be fully independent of SQL" is much
> more likely to get core developer support. We (the Django core) will
> be very receptive to any suggestions on how django.db.models needs to
> be modified in order to support non-SQL backends -- especially if you
> can demonstrate that your suggestions aren't just theoretical, but are
> clearly required by an actual backend implementation.

Agreed, making models SQL-independent is the most important (and most
complicated) part. Do the people secretly working on App Engine
integration try to implement that part?

On 6 Feb., 11:53, Russell Keith-Magee  wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Waldemar Kornewald  
> wrote:
>
> > BTW, could someone please activate my "wkornewald" Trac account, so I
> > can move the documentation into your wiki?
>
> After I pressed send, something else occurred to me:
>
> Before you starting loading documentation into Django's wiki, please
> consider if Django's wiki is the right place for that documentation.
>
> If you are maintaining an external project handling AppEngine support
> for Django, then that project's wiki is the right place for
> documentation about AppEngine support within Django. While AppEngine
> support isn't part of Django's core, Django's wiki isn't the right
> place to be providing AppEngine specific instructions - especially if
> the first instruction is "install this third party project that isn't
> formally affiliated with the Django project at this time".

I can't find anything like that in my wiki page. It describes what is
necessary for a completely new port that has practically nothing to do
with app-engine-patch apart from being able to reuse some of the
existing code. It could be useful for any porting effort. If I keep it
in my wiki nobody else can work on that page. It's almost useless that
way.

Bye,
Waldemar Kornewald
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: App Engine port

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Waldemar Kornewald  wrote:
>
> BTW, could someone please activate my "wkornewald" Trac account, so I
> can move the documentation into your wiki?

After I pressed send, something else occurred to me:

Before you starting loading documentation into Django's wiki, please
consider if Django's wiki is the right place for that documentation.

If you are maintaining an external project handling AppEngine support
for Django, then that project's wiki is the right place for
documentation about AppEngine support within Django. While AppEngine
support isn't part of Django's core, Django's wiki isn't the right
place to be providing AppEngine specific instructions - especially if
the first instruction is "install this third party project that isn't
formally affiliated with the Django project at this time".

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: App Engine port

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Waldemar Kornewald  wrote:
>
> A native Django port could provide us with a clean, more powerful, and
> more actively developed API for App Engine development. Moreover, it
> could provide a solution for provider lock-in by abstracting the
> underlying API and thus making easy migrations possible.

You won't get any disagreement here. Native support for AppEngine
within Django would be a nice feature. Support for other storage
backends (like CouchDB, Amazon SimpleDB, and so on) would also be nice
to have.

> I know that a lot of changes in the storage/query backend code need to
> be done in order to support the App Engine datastore and similar
> databases and I doubt that I can do the necessary API changes, but I
> could at least help with implementing the App Engine backends
> (sessions, cache, mail, db/storage). As a starting point, I've
> documented a few high-level requirements here:
> http://code.google.com/p/app-engine-patch/wiki/DjangoAppEnginePort
>
> Is there any roadmap towards App Engine support?

Is there a formal roadmap? No. App Engine support wasn't mentioned on
our v1.1 roadmap, and we don't plan beyond the next release.

> Is anyone working on it, already?

I'm not aware of any public projects. Reading between the lines, I
suspect I know at least one person that is working on App Engine
integration. However, I don't want to steal their thunder, so I'll
leave it up to them to show their hand if they feel it is appropriate.

> When will someone work on it and in which Django release can we expect
> native support? Is 1.2 possible?

The code isn't going to magically write itself, and it will be a
non-trivial job. You can expect native support right after someone
commits to implementing it :-)

Whether this is possible for v1.2 is very much dependent on who puts
in the work, and how much time they can put into the task. They will
also need to convince a core developer that you are serious, and that
they are capable of bringing the project to fruition. Providing an
initial patch -- even if it is incomplete -- will go a long way to
providing this proof.

I would also note that our (that is, the Core Developers) initial
reaction to non-SQL storage backends will be the same as it is for SQL
database backends -- we will want to see public interest and continued
support as a standalone project before we commit to integrating
anything into the Django core. This policy is why we have an Oracle
backend, but we don't have an MSSQL backend. There are, however,
several external projects providing MSSQL integration.

I would suggest to you that the broader project of "modifying the
django.db.models interface to be fully independent of SQL" is much
more likely to get core developer support. We (the Django core) will
be very receptive to any suggestions on how django.db.models needs to
be modified in order to support non-SQL backends -- especially if you
can demonstrate that your suggestions aren't just theoretical, but are
clearly required by an actual backend implementation.

The goal here isn't to get AppEngine support into the core - it is to
provide an interface in Django that allows you to implement an
AppEngine backend (or any other backend, for that matter) as a
completely standalone project. In time, this may lead to integration
into the Django core, but in the interim, we would rather see a
vibrant ecosystem of external plugins, rather than try and force
everything into Django's trunk.

> BTW, could someone please activate my "wkornewald" Trac account, so I
> can move the documentation into your wiki? I just don't receive any
> activation mail when registering. I tried sending to
> webmas...@djangoproject.com, but that address doesn't exist. Who can I
> talk to?

I can mail you activation code privately. Expect an email from me shortly.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

App Engine port

[Waldemar Kornewald]

Hi everyone,
first of all, let me introduce myself. I'm the main developer behind
app-engine-patch which is a port of Django to App Engine:
http://code.google.com/p/app-engine-patch/
Our repository version of Django now even supports the admin interface
and almost all of Django's other features, so our code could be reused
in an official port.

The problem here is that I have to use App Engine's Model class
everywhere. The port could've been much easier if Django's Model were
supported. App Engine's field classes don't even take a help_text
parameter and the whole DB API is a little bit disappointing compared
to Django. Also, I have to apply monkey-patches in a few places in
order to fix bugs which Google doesn't seem to have enough time for. :
(

A native Django port could provide us with a clean, more powerful, and
more actively developed API for App Engine development. Moreover, it
could provide a solution for provider lock-in by abstracting the
underlying API and thus making easy migrations possible.

I know that a lot of changes in the storage/query backend code need to
be done in order to support the App Engine datastore and similar
databases and I doubt that I can do the necessary API changes, but I
could at least help with implementing the App Engine backends
(sessions, cache, mail, db/storage). As a starting point, I've
documented a few high-level requirements here:
http://code.google.com/p/app-engine-patch/wiki/DjangoAppEnginePort

Is there any roadmap towards App Engine support?

Is anyone working on it, already?

When will someone work on it and in which Django release can we expect
native support? Is 1.2 possible?

BTW, could someone please activate my "wkornewald" Trac account, so I
can move the documentation into your wiki? I just don't receive any
activation mail when registering. I tried sending to
webmas...@djangoproject.com, but that address doesn't exist. Who can I
talk to?

Bye,
Waldemar Kornewald
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---