Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Jaromil]

hi T.J.

On 6 April 2015 01:37:23 CEST, "T.J. Duchene"  wrote:
> Fortunately, the Linux equivalents are user
>account
>based rather than system wide and can easily be cloned, modified, or if
>necessary dumped.


are you sure about this? every time I tried to port my desktop settings in
gconf to new installation I did not succeed, they were hardly portable across
different versions. Maybe is just me, however the flat file hierarchy that Jude
mentions, a'la /sys and /proc, should be considered the "UNIX way", with the
big advantage of inheriting filesystem operations like mount -o bind etc.

ciao
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Re: [Dng] [OT]I have been liberated!

[Peter Maloney]

On 04/06/2015 06:10 AM, Neo Futur wrote: I certainly would not
>> put it on server without serious thought, but I do not think that I would be 
>> overly concerned about it on
>> the desktop.
>  Same here I accept it on my mageia laptop, i dont really care the nsa
> knowing everything of me ( they already have
> http://leaksource.info/2013/12/30/nsas-ant-division-catalog-of-exploits-for-nearly-every-major-software-hardware-firmware/
> ) , but, for the sake of my customers,  I will never ever accept this
> on the dedicated servers I'm paid to manage by customers trusting me.
>
>
>
If you manage those servers from your desktop, then from a security
perspective, that desktop is a single point of failure. If there was a
keylogger on there, plus someone could read your private keys, how safe
would your server infrastructure be?
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 09:27:57AM +0200, Jaromil wrote:
> hi T.J.
> 
> On 6 April 2015 01:37:23 CEST, "T.J. Duchene"  wrote:
> > Fortunately, the Linux equivalents are user
> >account
> >based rather than system wide and can easily be cloned, modified, or if
> >necessary dumped.
> 
> 
> are you sure about this? every time I tried to port my desktop settings in
> gconf to new installation I did not succeed, they were hardly portable across
> different versions. Maybe is just me, however the flat file hierarchy that 
> Jude
> mentions, a'la /sys and /proc, should be considered the "UNIX way", with the
> big advantage of inheriting filesystem operations like mount -o bind etc.
> 

+1

I know very well that we have already had a registry in GNOME, and I
am among the harseholes who have *never* digested the gconf registry
nonsense-organisation and never managed to port gconfs across
different versions of GNOME (although I have very poor statistics on
that, let's say less than 20 cases...). IMHO centralising is never a
good option, and modularisation should be the norm. Binary conf has
brought only *problems*, while text files have survived for decades
(and please, don't bring again the "performance" argument, since
nobody can discern the difference between loading a text file or a
binary one).

What really puzzles me is why if you love systemd that much you just
continue arguing about systemd on the ML of a Debian fork specifically
born to throw systemd away. Do you think you might be able to convince
us that systemd is *good* and *beautiful* and *necessary*? I don't
want to be saved, thanks ;)

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Martijn Dekkers]

> What really puzzles me is why if you love systemd that much you just
> continue arguing about systemd on the ML of a Debian fork specifically
> born to throw systemd away. Do you think you might be able to convince
> us that systemd is *good* and *beautiful* and *necessary*? I don't
> want to be saved, thanks ;)
>

Looks to me like he isn't arguing for systemd, but he is just discussing
systems designs and implementation. Also looks to me like he is simply
keeping an open mind, and not getting swept away in hate either way
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 11:46:45AM +0300, Martijn Dekkers wrote:
> > What really puzzles me is why if you love systemd that much you just
> > continue arguing about systemd on the ML of a Debian fork specifically
> > born to throw systemd away. Do you think you might be able to convince
> > us that systemd is *good* and *beautiful* and *necessary*? I don't
> > want to be saved, thanks ;)
> >
> 
> Looks to me like he isn't arguing for systemd, but he is just discussing
> systems designs and implementation. Also looks to me like he is simply
> keeping an open mind, and not getting swept away in hate either way

...while I am getting swept away in hate? :) I admit I like very much
your point about some of the systemd-nonsense tolls being potentially
useful and interesting.

What I don't like is that fact that these interesting bits are just
part of a monolithic, messy, obscure, hard-to-maintain and hard-to-use
spaghetti-implementation that openly targets at managing the whole
system. And (call me paranoid) I don't like the fact that the
development of the systemd-nonsense is effectively led by RedHat, who
has a lot of interest in having "one ring to rule them all", and is
managed by people who answer "troll" and "wontfix" to questions and
bug reports, in line with the worst commercial-Unix policies of the
late eighties. We have been freed once from such nonsense, so why
should we come back?

IMHO, there is no wonderful bag of technical novelties which can
justify a flawed design, incarnated in a flawed implementation,
pursued for flawed aims by a bunch of people who effectively act and
behave like they have the right answer for everithing, while the rest
is just garbage. Call this "hate" if this let you feel any better :)

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Joerg Reisenweber]

On Mon 06 April 2015 10:06:49 KatolaZ wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 11:46:45AM +0300, Martijn Dekkers wrote:
> > > What really puzzles me is why if you love systemd that much you just
> > > continue arguing about systemd on the ML of a Debian fork specifically
> > > born to throw systemd away. Do you think you might be able to convince
> > > us that systemd is *good* and *beautiful* and *necessary*? I don't
> > > want to be saved, thanks ;)
> > 
> > Looks to me like he isn't arguing for systemd, but he is just discussing
> > systems designs and implementation. Also looks to me like he is simply
> > keeping an open mind, and not getting swept away in hate either way
> 
> ...while I am getting swept away in hate? :) I admit I like very much
> your point about some of the systemd-nonsense tolls being potentially
> useful and interesting.
> 
> What I don't like is that fact that these interesting bits are just
> part of a monolithic, messy, obscure, hard-to-maintain and hard-to-use
> spaghetti-implementation that openly targets at managing the whole
> system. And (call me paranoid) I don't like the fact that the
> development of the systemd-nonsense is effectively led by RedHat, who
> has a lot of interest in having "one ring to rule them all", and is
> managed by people who answer "troll" and "wontfix" to questions and
> bug reports, in line with the worst commercial-Unix policies of the
> late eighties. We have been freed once from such nonsense, so why
> should we come back?
> 
> IMHO, there is no wonderful bag of technical novelties which can
> justify a flawed design, incarnated in a flawed implementation,
> pursued for flawed aims by a bunch of people who effectively act and
> behave like they have the right answer for everithing, while the rest
> is just garbage. Call this "hate" if this let you feel any better :)
> 
> My2Cents
> 
> KatolaZ

Please by all means avoid "friendly fire" towards shots you hear in front of 
you - it's not the enemy, it's just your peers, we're all looking (and 
fighting) same direction.

BR
/j

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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Martijn Dekkers]

> > Looks to me like he isn't arguing for systemd, but he is just discussing
> > systems designs and implementation. Also looks to me like he is simply
> > keeping an open mind, and not getting swept away in hate either way
>
> ...while I am getting swept away in hate? :) I admit I like very much
> your point about some of the systemd-nonsense tolls being potentially
> useful and interesting.
>

ufff, seriously? Nobody is getting "swept away with hate", what I meant was
that the rhetoric against systemd gets cranked up so high at times that it
feels not possible to have a normal, levelheaded, unemotional discussion. I
enjoy reading TJ's dispatches - he clearly is a seasoned, experienced
professional, and his perspectives are worth considering.



> What I don't like is that fact that these interesting bits are just
> part of a monolithic, messy, obscure, hard-to-maintain and hard-to-use
> spaghetti-implementation that openly targets at managing the whole
> system. And (call me paranoid) I don't like the fact that the
> development of the systemd-nonsense is effectively led by RedHat, who
> has a lot of interest in having "one ring to rule them all", and is
> managed by people who answer "troll" and "wontfix" to questions and
> bug reports, in line with the worst commercial-Unix policies of the
> late eighties. We have been freed once from such nonsense, so why
> should we come back?
>

Yeah, we are all contributing in Devuan in some form or another because we
don't like systemd for whatever reason.



> IMHO, there is no wonderful bag of technical novelties which can
> justify a flawed design, incarnated in a flawed implementation,
> pursued for flawed aims by a bunch of people who effectively act and
> behave like they have the right answer for everithing, while the rest
> is just garbage. Call this "hate" if this let you feel any better :)
>

There is a debating technique called "The Steel Man" - it is very useful
and effective. If anything, this is what I see TJ doing more than anything
else.
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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Roger Leigh]

On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 07:43:26PM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Franco Lanza [mailto:next...@nexlab.it]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 5:36 PM
> > To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> > Subject: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends"
> > dependency?
> > 
> > Personally on debian i was using from date
> > 
> > APT:Install-Recommends "0";
> > APT:Install-Suggests "0";
> > 
> > in all my install apt.conf.
> > 
> > I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
> but
> > just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded envs, but
> > also on my desktop.
> > 
> > What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?
> 
> 
> [T.J. ] Personally, I love the idea.  However, in certain instances, like
> "-dev" packages or "build environments", where the recommended should really
> be followed.  I'd follow it wherever Perl or Python is involved as well,
> even if you aren't working on code, just to make sure everything works
> smoothly.

No, this is fundamentally incorrect.

Building should always be deterministic.  This means never ever using
Suggests or Recommends.  sbuild, for example, always sets
APT::Install-Recommends=false.  In addition, it will also drop
conditional dependencies so that only the first will be used, again
for determinism.

Less strict behaviour is fine when installing packages for a developer
to use on their development machine, but for automated/final builds
for deployment elsewhere, such as Debian package building, it's
essential that the necessary packages are completely and
unambiguously specified with plain Depends.


Regards,
Roger

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Re: [Dng] [OT]I have been liberated!

[T.J. Duchene]

> -Original Message-
> From: neofu...@ww7.be [mailto:neofu...@ww7.be] On Behalf Of Neo
> Futur
> Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2015 11:10 PM
> To: T.J. Duchene
> Cc: dng@lists.dyne.org
> Subject: Re: [Dng] [OT]I have been liberated!
> 
>  I m a gentoo and mageia user ( but I donated half a bitcoin to devuan
> because I need devuan ) , and I can tell you the behaviour of mageia
> developpers is the same, I also exereinced the same nazi behaviou on
> archlinux irc channel.

[T.J. ] I've never had a high opinion of Arch.  It was probably the worst 
tested Linux I've met in the last few years.  I found it to be unacceptably 
buggy.
 

>  so i m not surprised debian developpers have this attitude. imo there no
> systemd level, as it is imposed in politics and geopolitics all over the
> world.joke at all here, the same "whataboutism" is imposed in the linux world 
> at
> the 


>  what is real bad is the denial of our right to disagree and state our 
> opinions
> and choices, and not only in the linux world ( sorry I stopped saying
> GNU/linux until stallman finally moves his ass in this freedom war )  another
> real bad thing is this kind of backdoor,
> > " these kinds of vulnerabilities turning exploitable in the future which 
> > would
> be impossible to spot
> at the source level without this knowledge. "
> 
[T.J. ]  All of Linux-dom seems to have that same attitude problem in my 
experience.  Debian had internal problems long before systemd.  It might be 
considered heresy to say this, but I respect Richard Stallman, frankly, I do 
not take him seriously anymore.  I do not think that his opinion carries the 
weight it used to with many people.  

As for the page address, that is not a backdoor, that is a flaw on an old 
kernel, that as far as I can tell is local only.  You have to have access to 
the machine to exploit it, you can just as easily reboot the machine into a 
maintenace state and change whatever you see fit, without wasting your time on 
a local exploit.  As for SELinux, I have never actually met anyone who uses it. 
 There are other, far less annoying security modules.

>  Same here I accept it on my mageia laptop, i dont really care the nsa knowing
> everything of me ( they already have
>
> ) , but, for the sake of my customers,  I will never ever accept this on the
> dedicated servers i m paid to mange by customers trusting me.
> 
[T.J. ] I don't get it.  If you don't feel comfortable trusting commercial 
firmware, don’t use it.  

Quite frankly, I think you are overestimating what they can do.  If owners 
properly maintained and updated their gear, there would not be large exploits 
for them to take advantage of.  Then again, if they stopped using all that 
wireless and cell crap, security would increase immeasurably.  You really do 
not think that you can broadcast an omni-drectional signal and expect no one 
else do pick it up, do you?




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Re: [Dng] Devuan's release date ?

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

kato...@freaknet.org writes:

... So if you are thinking of using Devuan for production, ...


And if I'm not stupid enough to do that, then your entire response is void, 
right?


Please don't assume stupidity in the context of Devuan. Devuan attacts 
people who have good enough taste in software to dislike systemd, that's 
not a naturally stupid audience.


Arnt
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Re: [Dng] Devuan's release date ?

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Isaac Dunham writes:

On one of my installs I included this in sources.list:


Thank you very much.

Arnt

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[Dng] Currency option for PayPal Donation

[Anto]

Hello Everybody,

My PayPal account is in EUR and the donations recorded in the balance 
sheet of Devuan are all in EUR currency, a part from the Bitcoin 
donation of course. I have tried to a few months back and I just tried 
it again to donate a few moments ago, but there is still no option to 
change the currency instead of using USD so I didn't proceed. This is 
maybe not an issue for everybody else but for me this does not really 
make sense.


Kind regards,

Anto

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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 6 Apr 2015 11:46:45 +0300
Martijn Dekkers  wrote:

> > What really puzzles me is why if you love systemd that much you just
> > continue arguing about systemd on the ML of a Debian fork
> > specifically born to throw systemd away. Do you think you might be
> > able to convince us that systemd is *good* and *beautiful* and
> > *necessary*? I don't want to be saved, thanks ;)
> >
> 
> Looks to me like he isn't arguing for systemd, but he is just
> discussing systems designs and implementation. Also looks to me like
> he is simply keeping an open mind, and not getting swept away in hate
> either way

But to what point? Devuan was born in, OK, I'll use your
characterization, hate, of systemd. Eliminating systemd is the
cornerstone of Devuan. Sure, we're forming principles that accommodate
our refusal to use systemd, and accommodate future software fiascos,
but it's obvious that Devuan=NoSystemd.

So what is the point, on this particular list, of keeping an open mind
on the subject of systemd? I can see the point on the Manjaro list, or
the Gentoo list, or the Saybayon list, or the OpenSuSE list. But on
declared systemd-never lists like Devuan or Funtoo, or for that matter
on declared systemd-forever lists like RedHat and Fedora, what's the
point of being systemd agnostic?

Systemd-agnosticism is appropriate in most venues. But not in venues
whose very foundation is pro or anti systemd.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 11:24:54 +0200
Joerg Reisenweber  wrote:

 
> Please by all means avoid "friendly fire" towards shots you hear in
> front of you - it's not the enemy, it's just your peers, we're all
> looking (and fighting) same direction.
> 
> BR
> /j

Joerg,

When the organization has made a foundational policy decision, so they
can move forward and implement that policy, yet somebody keeps trying
to open up that policy to further debate, is that somebody's fire
really friendly? Are they looking and fighting in the same direction,
or are they deliberately retarding progress in that direction?

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Joerg Reisenweber]

On Mon 06 April 2015 11:01:10 Steve Litt wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 11:24:54 +0200
> 
> Joerg Reisenweber  wrote:
> > Please by all means avoid "friendly fire" towards shots you hear in
> > front of you - it's not the enemy, it's just your peers, we're all
> > looking (and fighting) same direction.
> > 
> > BR
> > /j
> 
> Joerg,
> 
> When the organization has made a foundational policy decision, so they
> can move forward and implement that policy, yet somebody keeps trying
> to open up that policy to further debate, is that somebody's fire
> really friendly? Are they looking and fighting in the same direction,
> or are they deliberately retarding progress in that direction?
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt
> Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/28

I dunno why you answer a post addressed to KatolaZ. Anyway I don't know if I 
really want to answer your question, or rather consider the question itself a 
good example of friendly fire

/j

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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Martijn Dekkers]

So, let me get this right - it is frowned upon on this list to mention
anything of the following regarding systemd:
- Any potentially positive attributes of systemd;
- Any potentially valid use-cases of systemd;
- Any possible non-deranged systemd developers;
- Any reasons distro's might have to adopt systemd other than "RedHat wants
to eat the world, Mark Shuttleworth is a dumbass; the Debian team has been
corrupted"
- Any hints towards systemd-agnosticism?

Because if that is the case, then you really are no better than the lot
across the fence. Same ridiculous blinkered views, different flag to pledge
blind allegiance to.

I have a real life example of how this comes across:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2020382/You-entering-Sharia-law-Britain-As-Islamic-extremists-declare-Sharia-law-zone-London-suburb-worrying-social-moral-implications.html

It really is a pity. The VUA and guys like Jude do awesome work bringing
the state-of-the-art forward when it comes to actually building working
technology that does not depend on systemd, whilst this list is quickly
just an echo chamber of pre-approved opinions. And the pre-approved
opinions are getting less by the day.


On 6 April 2015 at 17:55, Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Apr 2015 11:46:45 +0300
> Martijn Dekkers  wrote:
>
> > > What really puzzles me is why if you love systemd that much you just
> > > continue arguing about systemd on the ML of a Debian fork
> > > specifically born to throw systemd away. Do you think you might be
> > > able to convince us that systemd is *good* and *beautiful* and
> > > *necessary*? I don't want to be saved, thanks ;)
> > >
> >
> > Looks to me like he isn't arguing for systemd, but he is just
> > discussing systems designs and implementation. Also looks to me like
> > he is simply keeping an open mind, and not getting swept away in hate
> > either way
>
> But to what point? Devuan was born in, OK, I'll use your
> characterization, hate, of systemd. Eliminating systemd is the
> cornerstone of Devuan. Sure, we're forming principles that accommodate
> our refusal to use systemd, and accommodate future software fiascos,
> but it's obvious that Devuan=NoSystemd.
>
> So what is the point, on this particular list, of keeping an open mind
> on the subject of systemd? I can see the point on the Manjaro list, or
> the Gentoo list, or the Saybayon list, or the OpenSuSE list. But on
> declared systemd-never lists like Devuan or Funtoo, or for that matter
> on declared systemd-forever lists like RedHat and Fedora, what's the
> point of being systemd agnostic?
>
> Systemd-agnosticism is appropriate in most venues. But not in venues
> whose very foundation is pro or anti systemd.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
>
>
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Martijn Dekkers]

> When the organization has made a foundational policy decision, so they
> can move forward and implement that policy, yet somebody keeps trying
> to open up that policy to further debate, is that somebody's fire
> really friendly? Are they looking and fighting in the same direction,
> or are they deliberately retarding progress in that direction?
>

man, this is just getting depressing... I don't see anybody "trying to open
a policy to further debate" I just see a frank and open discussion of a
topic that is one way or the other important to all of us. What I am also
seeing is that "open debate" is actively discouraged by some people on this
list.
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Martijn Dekkers writes:
I just see a frank and open discussion of a topic that is one 
way or the other important to all of us. 


Which topic is that?

Arnt
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Martin Steigerwald]

Am Sonntag, 5. April 2015, 18:37:23 schrieb T.J. Duchene:
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI [mailto:ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org]
> > Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2015 5:34 PM
> > To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> > Subject: Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd
> > 
> > On Sun, 05 Apr 2015 00:11:55 +0200
> > 
> > toto titi  wrote:
> > > Nearly as complex as a Microsoft operating system, look at that :
> > > http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/
> > 
> > Please, Sir, could we have a registry ?
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Ron.
> > --
> 
> [T.J. ] You already do have a  registry.
> 
> It's called "gconf" and has been part of Gnome for the last decade.  KDE
> uses a MySQL database for many settings as well, so Gnome is not the
> only culprit.

Nope, it doesn´t.

Settings are still in INI like files below .kde/share/config and for Akonadi 
./config/akonadi and well I think Plasma 5 moved config files to ~/.config 
somewhere, but I am not completely sure about the last one.

Akonadi by default uses MySQL to store PIM item metadata and partly cache 
them. PIM items are events, contacts, mails. But even that will be 
replaced in case AkonadiNext will be the next Akonadi. It uses mmap()-
based files with some lower level access, I think Flatbuffers, but I am not 
so sure what that means yet :)

Baloo uses a SQLite3 database in Plasma 4, but I think Vishesh got rid of 
it for Plasma 5 development version meanwhile.

Amarok uses MySQL embedded since years without major issues.

I think Digikam uses SQLite by default.


Iceweasel uses SQLite, I think Icedove too.

So databases are at many places, yet KDE doesn´t use one for configuration 
data.

Ciao,
-- 
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Martin Steigerwald]

Am Sonntag, 5. April 2015, 19:52:32 schrieb Jude Nelson:
> If I ever write a desktop suite, it will store settings as a
> well-defined directory tree with human-meaningful file names and
> contents instead of a MySQL database or a large flat opaque file.
> 
> That's just me, though.

Jude. Thats KDE.

Except that it stuffes the config files all in one directory 
~/.kde/share/config, I think, see my other post.

-- 
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Isaac Dunham]

On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 09:38:06AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
> What really puzzles me is why if you love systemd that much you just
> continue arguing about systemd on the ML of a Debian fork specifically
> born to throw systemd away. Do you think you might be able to convince
> us that systemd is *good* and *beautiful* and *necessary*? I don't
> want to be saved, thanks ;)

All I see T.J. saying is that systemd (1) implements some good ideas
and (2) has done so in a way that is flawed in *certain* aspects, 
but (3) not in *other* aspects.

And I suppose I agree with that.


An init system that can collect *all* the descendents of a service is
a nice concept.
So is having a dependency-based boot that can respond to events,
without treating "this dependency became available" as an event
in its own right.
And I suppose that knowing when service x becomes available, and 
when it goes away, can be nice...as is knowing that service x will
keep running until the sysadmin stops it.

But does that entail a release schedule such that the version number
has increased by nearly 200 in 5 years, or a library to interface with
that same package?
Does it call for writing a new service to handle fdisk, another one to
handle networking, another to handle the boot splash, and so on?
Why should an init system implement an SNTP daemon, or its own
DNS server, and what excuse is there for reinventing cache poisoning?

I've heard comments about systemd being spaghetti-code.
No, it's not: it's spaghetti-architecture, but the bits and pieces looked
fairly clear. I *wish* busybox were that well-written.
It's what they require and how they're combined that's problematic.

I use musl libc on many of my installs, because I like having a libc
that's simple to read, to enhance, to fix, to build, and to install,
and that respects the bounds of its scope and keeps code and binary
size down.
systemd doesn't complement that, because it's an *boot* system that
takes half a million lines of code to cover "booting the system".
Note that I didn't call it an *init* system, because that is
obviously not the scope that they accept.
It doesn't work with musl, in small part because they decided to
require secure_getenv() which is synonymous with 
if (issetugid()) getenv(var);
but also because of extensive reliance on "how glibc does it"--
which may actually be undefined or nonstandard behavior that could
change (for examples, note the flash breakage thanks to the memcpy()
rewrite, and check the history of glibc getenv()).
When people have enquired about making it work with uclibc, the
developers responded with something that sounded a lot like
"maybe, *if* it's not much different and you do the work".

It requires util-linux and its libraries, and libkmod, and its own
device manager, and libraries for crypto and compression, and it
tries to provide a boot manager that's worthless for me (I use
BIOS-based systems).
Here, I use toybox/busybox because it covers all the functionality
needed to boot and use a command-line Linux system; xz rather than
lzma is my preferred compression tool; and I use grub4dos, currently
the chenall fork, as a bootloader because I understand grub1, it can
boot from NTFS, it can easily be set up from Windows, and it can boot
FreeDOS.

So my objection to systemd mostly comes down to this question:
why should I have *any* interest in a project that averages ~3 releases
a month to add features I don't want, that depends on packages I don't
use, and would expect *me* to support *their* design?
I have things I'd rather be working on than understanding half a
million lines of boot system, and I can build one that I understand
and that meets my own needs in under a thousand.

Thanks,
Isaac Dunham
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Re: [Dng] [OT]I have been liberated!

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 5:10 AM, Neo Futur  wrote:
>  Same here I accept it on my mageia laptop, i dont really care the nsa
> knowing everything of me ( they already have
> http://leaksource.info/2013/12/30/nsas-ant-division-catalog-of-exploits-for-nearly-every-major-software-hardware-firmware/
> ) , but, for the sake of my customers,  I will never ever accept this
> on the dedicated servers i m paid to mange by customers trusting me.

You're forgetting sysadmins (and their gadgets) are interesting
targets[1] as well.


-- 
[1] 
http://www.zdnet.com/article/nsa-targets-sysadmin-personal-accounts-to-exploit-networks/?_escaped_fragment_=#!
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Ron]

On Mon, 6 Apr 2015 10:55:12 -0400
Steve Litt  wrote:

> But to what point? Devuan was born in, OK, I'll use your
> characterization, hate, of systemd. 

No, hate of the lack of choice.
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
  -- Charles Darwin

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Jude Nelson]

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:07 AM, Martijn Dekkers <
devuan-li...@dekkers.org.uk> wrote:

[snip]

> It really is a pity. The VUA and guys like Jude do awesome work bringing
> the state-of-the-art forward when it comes to actually building working
> technology that does not depend on systemd, whilst this list is quickly
> just an echo chamber of pre-approved opinions. And the pre-approved
> opinions are getting less by the day.
>
>
I've seen at least two posts now where I've been held up as an example of
doing something about systemd.  First, thank you for your kind words :)
 Second, I can't take all the credit :)  Besides the VUA collective
(Jaromil, Nextime, Hellekin, and others?), there's also:

* Dima Krasner, who is working on LoginKit (
https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/loginkit), as well as
building Puppy Linux from Devuan, and getting lightdm to work without
logind.
* Isaac Dunham, who is working on libsysdev (
https://github.com/idunham/libsysdev) and getting X.org to run without
libudev.
* Scooby, lepoitr, John Carline, and other anonymous contributors who are
helping me test vdev on live hardware.

I'd like to get a list together (perhaps on the wiki?) of the names or
aliases of the people who are working on making Devuan possible, so we can
give credit where credit is due.

-Jude


> On 6 April 2015 at 17:55, Steve Litt  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 6 Apr 2015 11:46:45 +0300
>> Martijn Dekkers  wrote:
>>
>> > > What really puzzles me is why if you love systemd that much you just
>> > > continue arguing about systemd on the ML of a Debian fork
>> > > specifically born to throw systemd away. Do you think you might be
>> > > able to convince us that systemd is *good* and *beautiful* and
>> > > *necessary*? I don't want to be saved, thanks ;)
>> > >
>> >
>> > Looks to me like he isn't arguing for systemd, but he is just
>> > discussing systems designs and implementation. Also looks to me like
>> > he is simply keeping an open mind, and not getting swept away in hate
>> > either way
>>
>> But to what point? Devuan was born in, OK, I'll use your
>> characterization, hate, of systemd. Eliminating systemd is the
>> cornerstone of Devuan. Sure, we're forming principles that accommodate
>> our refusal to use systemd, and accommodate future software fiascos,
>> but it's obvious that Devuan=NoSystemd.
>>
>> So what is the point, on this particular list, of keeping an open mind
>> on the subject of systemd? I can see the point on the Manjaro list, or
>> the Gentoo list, or the Saybayon list, or the OpenSuSE list. But on
>> declared systemd-never lists like Devuan or Funtoo, or for that matter
>> on declared systemd-forever lists like RedHat and Fedora, what's the
>> point of being systemd agnostic?
>>
>> Systemd-agnosticism is appropriate in most venues. But not in venues
>> whose very foundation is pro or anti systemd.
>>
>> SteveT
>>
>> Steve Litt
>> Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
>> http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
>>
>>
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Jude Nelson]

Should have said in the earlier email:  the list of contributors I gave
earlier is definitely not all-encompassing, nor was it meant to be (I was
trying to give an example of other people working towards a systemd-free
future, and those were the first few people that came to mind).  This is
why a wiki page with all contributors accounted for--not only developers,
but also testers, bug-hunters, integrators, editors, document-writers,
graphic artists, packagers, and so on.  We're all in this together :)

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Jude Nelson  wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:07 AM, Martijn Dekkers <
> devuan-li...@dekkers.org.uk> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> It really is a pity. The VUA and guys like Jude do awesome work bringing
>> the state-of-the-art forward when it comes to actually building working
>> technology that does not depend on systemd, whilst this list is quickly
>> just an echo chamber of pre-approved opinions. And the pre-approved
>> opinions are getting less by the day.
>>
>>
> I've seen at least two posts now where I've been held up as an example of
> doing something about systemd.  First, thank you for your kind words :)
>  Second, I can't take all the credit :)  Besides the VUA collective
> (Jaromil, Nextime, Hellekin, and others?), there's also:
>
> * Dima Krasner, who is working on LoginKit (
> https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/loginkit), as well as
> building Puppy Linux from Devuan, and getting lightdm to work without
> logind.
> * Isaac Dunham, who is working on libsysdev (
> https://github.com/idunham/libsysdev) and getting X.org to run without
> libudev.
> * Scooby, lepoitr, John Carline, and other anonymous contributors who are
> helping me test vdev on live hardware.
>
> I'd like to get a list together (perhaps on the wiki?) of the names or
> aliases of the people who are working on making Devuan possible, so we can
> give credit where credit is due.
>
> -Jude
>
>
>> On 6 April 2015 at 17:55, Steve Litt  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 6 Apr 2015 11:46:45 +0300
>>> Martijn Dekkers  wrote:
>>>
>>> > > What really puzzles me is why if you love systemd that much you just
>>> > > continue arguing about systemd on the ML of a Debian fork
>>> > > specifically born to throw systemd away. Do you think you might be
>>> > > able to convince us that systemd is *good* and *beautiful* and
>>> > > *necessary*? I don't want to be saved, thanks ;)
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > Looks to me like he isn't arguing for systemd, but he is just
>>> > discussing systems designs and implementation. Also looks to me like
>>> > he is simply keeping an open mind, and not getting swept away in hate
>>> > either way
>>>
>>> But to what point? Devuan was born in, OK, I'll use your
>>> characterization, hate, of systemd. Eliminating systemd is the
>>> cornerstone of Devuan. Sure, we're forming principles that accommodate
>>> our refusal to use systemd, and accommodate future software fiascos,
>>> but it's obvious that Devuan=NoSystemd.
>>>
>>> So what is the point, on this particular list, of keeping an open mind
>>> on the subject of systemd? I can see the point on the Manjaro list, or
>>> the Gentoo list, or the Saybayon list, or the OpenSuSE list. But on
>>> declared systemd-never lists like Devuan or Funtoo, or for that matter
>>> on declared systemd-forever lists like RedHat and Fedora, what's the
>>> point of being systemd agnostic?
>>>
>>> Systemd-agnosticism is appropriate in most venues. But not in venues
>>> whose very foundation is pro or anti systemd.
>>>
>>> SteveT
>>>
>>> Steve Litt
>>> Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
>>> http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[T.J. Duchene]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jaromil [mailto:jaro...@dyne.org]
> Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 2:28 AM
> To: T.J. Duchene; dng@lists.dyne.org
> Subject: Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd
> 
> hi T.J.
> 
> On 6 April 2015 01:37:23 CEST, "T.J. Duchene" 
> wrote:
> > Fortunately, the Linux equivalents are user account based rather than
> >system wide and can easily be cloned, modified, or if necessary dumped.
> 
> 
> are you sure about this? 
[T.J. ]  "Semi-sure" would be an honest way to put it.  I've extracted and 
scripted keys in gconf before.  So yes, it is theoretically and practically 
possible when working with Gnome apps.  Do I bother doing so with the Gnome 
environment itself?  No, I do not. I "dropkick it to the curb."  What I find 
distasteful about it is not the interface changes, but the overdependence on 
Javascript.  Not much phases me after 25+ years, but I hate stupid.

The problem you are describing with keys not working is Gnome developers 
changing crap without properly documenting changes in keys, not the fact that 
they are using a database to keep track of settings.  It's no different than 
upstream changing the config file format, and then not bothering to document 
things properly.  We all know that has happened from time to time.   

 
 >Maybe is just me, however the flat file hierarchy that Jude
> mentions, a'la /sys and /proc, should be considered the "UNIX way", with the
> big advantage of inheriting filesystem operations like mount -o bind etc.

[T.J. ] There are advantages to both.  Databases are much easier to write front 
ends for.  It's all open code.  I'm personally for using either method as long 
as it is documented properly, and the database used does not encumber the 
system.


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[Dng] [dng] vdev status update

[Jude Nelson]

Hey everyone,

Scooby, John Carline, lepoitr, and others (who wish to remain anonymous)
have been sending me logs filesystem listings from running vdev locally.  I
very much appreciate it--it helped me discover and fix bugs relating to
persistent paths for disk devices, seeding /dev with initial device files,
and adding support for Virtualbox USB devices.  Thank you to everyone who
helped me with this!

We are getting close to feature-parity with udev insofar as generating the
proper device paths.  However, there are still a few kinds of device paths
that are not yet handled (that I know of).  They are:

* /dev/input/by-id/*
* /dev/disk/by-partuuid/*
* /dev/md/*
* LVM volume group and logical volume paths (i.e.
/dev/$VOLUME_GROUP/$LOGICAL_VOLUME)

Lack of LVM VG/LV paths is probably a deal-breaker for many people on this
list; I'll make it my next priority.

I've also been modifying libudev 219 so clients do not need udevd to be
running to receive device events.  I mentioned last week that the strategy
I would take is watching /dev for device files to get added/removed, and
synthesizing the appropriate driver core uevent from the added/removed file
(i.e. by looking up the associated uevent in /sys).

However, this has proven to be a somewhat challenging problem, for a couple
reasons.  First, inotify(2) does not work on pseudo-filesystems like sysfs
or devtmpfs, so we can't just watch /sys for changes, and we can't use
devtmpfs for /dev.  This means that systems using libudev-compat will
require a "vanilla" tmpfs for /dev (or nothing at all), so it can detect
when devices are added or removed.  Second, only block and character
devices show up in /dev.  However, udevd reports every kind of device,
since it listens to the kernel's driver core (i.e. libudev learns about
network interfaces, buses, power supplies, etc.--stuff for which there are
no device files).  Clients will expect this behavior, so it's not enough to
simply look up a new block/character device's sysfs data.

My tentative solution is to require the device manager (whatever it happens
to be) to take one extra step in addition to adding/removing device files:
record driver core uevents in a well-defined location in /dev (let's say
/dev/uevents/), so libudev clients can discover them (with inotify(2)),
read them, and send them off to their applications.  This can be done
without loss of generality in udev, vdev, and mdev, and I can make a script
that takes the appropriate action with mknod (so those with a static /dev
can alias "mknod" to the script, if desired).

The device manager would treat /dev/uevents/ as an "IPC" area.  A libudev
client would create a directory /dev/uevents/$PID/ upon initialization, and
the device manager would write the uevent to each directory in
/dev/uevents/ to a file named by the hash of the uevent's contents.  Once
the libudev client consumed the file, it would unlink it.

For example, the PCI slot :ff:02.2 on my laptop generates the uevent
packet containing:

"""
PCI_CLASS=6
PCI_ID=8086:2D13
PCI_SUBSYS_ID=17AA:2196
PCI_SLOT_NAME=:ff:02.3
"""

The device manager would take the SHA256 of this string
(57d39e74f7638f6c78c1fb86d81d2f203852b609f501df216abe4b45339d636f), and
write the contents of this packet to the file
/dev/uevents/*/57d39e74f7638f6c78c1fb86d81d2f203852b609f501df216abe4b45339d636f
(i.e. one copy in each libudev client's /dev/uevents/ directory).  Then,
each libudev client would get woken up through inotify(2), would read the
new file, forward the device event packet to the client, and unlink it.

To avoid the troublesome corner case where a libudev client crashes and
potentially leaves behind a directory in /dev/uevents/, I would recommend
mounting runfs [1] on /dev/uevents.  Runfs is a special FUSE filesystem I
wrote a while back that ensures that the files created in it by a
particular process get automatically unlinked when that process dies (it
was originally meant for holding PID files).

Any feedback on the above development plan is welcome, especially if a
simpler, more robust approach can be found.

Thanks,
Jude

[1] https://github.com/jcnelson/runfs
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[T.J. Duchene]

> 
> What really puzzles me is why if you love systemd that much you just
> continue arguing about systemd on the ML of a Debian fork specifically
born
> to throw systemd away. Do you think you might be able to convince us that
> systemd is *good* and *beautiful* and *necessary*? I don't want to be
> saved, thanks ;)

[T.J. ]  To answer your question directly, you speak your mind, I speak
mine.  All well and good.  If you disagree with me, that is certainly your
right, and I've always respected that.   I do not understand why my response
to a "registry joke" by saying that Linux already has a registry in the form
of gconf has anything to do with systemd.   I'm not accusing you of
anything, KatolaZ, and I certainly do not want to argue on the list.   I am
genuinely puzzled.  I'm not trying to change your mind on anything.  I'm
certainly not trying to "save" anyone.  I regard you as a respected
colleague, who I simply do not always agree with.  

I am getting the general impression from on and off the list, that my
comments are not welcome here, and that my continued presence is a
distraction. Very well.  I was going to give it some more thought, but I
think it would be best if I simply left the list by the end of the day.
Anything I do with Devuan will be discussed elsewhere.  I'll stay on the
list long enough to finish wrap up a few comments with Jeromil, and a few
others.

 Take care, and no hard feelings.

T.J.






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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Apollia]

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:01 AM, Steve Litt  wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 11:24:54 +0200
> Joerg Reisenweber  wrote:
>
>
>> Please by all means avoid "friendly fire" towards shots you hear in
>> front of you - it's not the enemy, it's just your peers, we're all
>> looking (and fighting) same direction.
>>
>> BR
>> /j
>
> Joerg,
>
> When the organization has made a foundational policy decision, so they
> can move forward and implement that policy, yet somebody keeps trying
> to open up that policy to further debate, is that somebody's fire
> really friendly? Are they looking and fighting in the same direction,
> or are they deliberately retarding progress in that direction?
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/28

I can't remember the exact quote, but I think there's some quote I
heard somewhere about why enemies aren't necessarily a bad thing to
have.  Basically something like, you'll discover your weaknesses
sooner by observing what your enemies try to exploit, and thus you
might learn more from your enemies than from listening to nothing but
praise and often overly soft and gentle criticism from allies.

So, I think perhaps even someone with bad intentions (though I haven't
yet noticed anyone who seems to me to have bad intentions) could maybe
inadvertently help us.


Also, I think it might be good to talk about systemd's good points so
we can get ideas on how to better undermine systemd by providing
superior alternatives to everything worthwhile that systemd does well
(if there is anything).

If systemd's good points are implemented in freedom-respecting
alternatives, people will have less reason to accept the drawbacks of
systemd, including the erosion of freedom resulting from systemd
engulfing way too many important functions of Linux, which (if I
understand correctly) has been leading other software to make itself
overly dependent on systemd.

Discussing systemd's good points in depth could help us zero in on
lots of new ideas for alternatives that we could create (or promote,
if good alternatives already exist).


If systemd didn't have any good points at all, (hopefully) no one would use it.

And, as someone on a blog I read said about the good points of
something other than systemd: "That's called bait. Now find the hook."

(Quote source: 
https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/gtk-fesses-up-this-aint-for-you-qt-takes-over-the-world/
)

We've definitely already found many hooks, but, I think we might
benefit by studying the systemd bait as well. :-)


Carrying the bait/hook analogy a bit further:

It looks to me like one of the goals of Devuan might be to make it so
we "fish" (Linux users) can all have tasty morsels to eat that will
taste just as good or better than the systemd "bait" (the good parts
of systemd) - with the most important and beneficial difference being
that our tasty morsels will be free of dangerous hidden hooks (or in
other words, anything like the bad parts of systemd, or anything else
which is anti-freedom).

We fish have the right to tasty food that doesn't contain hooks. :-)


Unfortunately, not all fish even acknowledge the existence of hooks.
In fact, some fish quite harshly deny the existence of hooks, and
prefer to believe that the fish who are aware of the hooks and want to
save other fish from the hooks are just "trolls" instead of
well-intentioned fellow fish who are making a valid point.

For many of the naive fish, perhaps believing in hooks is just too
scary, and having to search for (or cultivate) hook-free food seems
like too much nuisance.

But, fortunately, providing the tastiest food possible will enable us
to rescue even the fish who are oblivious to hooks and only care about
whether something tastes good or not, and whether it's ready to eat
right now.

With their hunger satisfied by our not only tasty but nutritious food,
even the most naive fish won't be so tempted by bait on a hook
anymore. :-)


By the way, I don't have a clear technical understanding of systemd,
so, my ideas about systemd are just the impressions I got after
reading others' opinions on systemd.  (I just don't want anyone to
mistakenly think I have a well-informed technical opinion.)

Also, this picture influenced me a lot.  :-)

http://devopsreactions.tumblr.com/post/112502661235/watching-systemd-evolve


This post is amusing too, but, I'm not sure if it's as educational:

http://devopsreactions.tumblr.com/post/97126865868/systemd


Anyway, all feedback/criticism/comments/corrections/etc. are welcome. :-)

Best wishes,
Apollia
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[Dng] Contact

[T.J. Duchene]

Anyone wants to contact me is certainly welcome to do so off of the Devuan
list, on any subject they please.  

I'm not trying to be dramatic, but I believe that it is in Devuan's best
interest that I leave. By removing myself from the list, legitimate
conversation can continue.  I'm still interested in working with Devuan at
some point. I do not want to antagonise anyone further.  Everyone has my
respect, and with that, I bid you "good day."

 

 

T.J.

 

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Re: [Dng] Contact

[Martijn Dekkers]

Hey TJ, I'm very sorry to see you go. Yours is an experienced and balanced
voice that this young community needs more of.

On 7 April 2015 at 00:04, T.J. Duchene  wrote:

> Anyone wants to contact me is certainly welcome to do so off of the Devuan
> list, on any subject they please.
>
> I’m not trying to be dramatic, but I believe that it is in Devuan’s best
> interest that I leave. By removing myself from the list, legitimate
> conversation can continue.  I’m still interested in working with Devuan at
> some point. I do not want to antagonise anyone further.  Everyone has my
> respect, and with that, I bid you “good day.”
>
>
>
>
>
> T.J.
>
>
>
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 11:24:54AM +0200, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Please by all means avoid "friendly fire" towards shots you hear in front of 
> you - it's not the enemy, it's just your peers, we're all looking (and 
> fighting) same direction.
> 

I'm sorry but I just don't see the point of some (lengthy) discussions
about all the good that a binary registry could bring to the Unix
world. But I am sure the problem is just me and myself and my own
fears...

I am neither a VUA nor an active Devuan developer, so in the future I
will carefully refrain from putting my view about the systemd-nonsense
frankly and clearly on this list, in order to avoid any "friend" to be
involuntarily hurt by my considerations. I think it's even better to
avoid writing anything at all. 

I thank again and again all the people that are working behind the
scenes to make Devuan happen. 

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Joerg Reisenweber]

On Mon 06 April 2015 15:50:38 T.J. Duchene wrote:
> think it would be best if I simply left the list by the end of the day.
please don't!
/j

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Re: [Dng] Contact

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 12:16:38AM +0300, Martijn Dekkers wrote:
> Hey TJ, I'm very sorry to see you go. Yours is an experienced and balanced
> voice that this young community needs more of.

I don't see why anybody should leave this list. I apologise if some of
my answers might have been too direct: my intention is neither to
silence anybody (again, I don't have any authority to do that, and it
is absolutely far from my intensions) nor to distinguish what is right
from what is wrong. 

I simply think that at the moment energies could be spent in a more
productive way than in trying to identify all the good technical
aspects of systemd (which might indeed be numerous). We still don't
have a systemd-free distribution, so I am sorry but I don't see the
point of discussing about which aspect of systemd one would like to
have in an otherwise systemd-free distribution (which does not exist,
at the moment). I know this is probably just *my* personal
idiosyncrasy.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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[Dng] Who/what is welcome on this list?

[Joel Roth]

T.J. Duchene wrote:
> I am getting the general impression from on and off the list, that my
> comments are not welcome here, and that my continued presence is a
> distraction. Very well.  I was going to give it some more thought, but I
> think it would be best if I simply left the list by the end of the day.
> Anything I do with Devuan will be discussed elsewhere.  I'll stay on the
> list long enough to finish wrap up a few comments with Jeromil, and a few
> others.

Trying to understand the issue(s) here.

First, T.J. is a VUA, so deserving of basic respect and
welcome unless by some specific behaviors threatens the
group. In the absence of official statutes, these are IMO
decisions to be taken at the discression of the list owner.

Second, I've noticed that the emotional tone of what T.J.
writes is generally even. I don't see him getting hot, cold,
bitter, etc. I don't see much use of hyperbole, sarcasm,
ALL CAPS!!  or other troll-worthy behaviors.

So probably it is the content of what T.J. says that sets
some people off, and these people are angry at being pulled
into arguments with him. They can't or don't want to
kill-file him, or perhaps are afraid he is spreading a
malign influence on vulnerable others.

Are these the people who we should satisfy?
 
Regardless of the immediate outcome, it is worth asking
what, exactly, is the problem with T.J.'s posts. 
 
I see much harder fought battles on the perl5-porters over
technical decisions. People may be temporarily banned for
personal attacks and certain other bad behaviors, while
every effort is made to attend to the person's technical
opinions.  Because there are specific definitions of
unacceptable conduct, the actions of the list-owner or
moderators can be principled rather than essentially
personal.

We have few enough VUAs already that it seems wasteful to
hound out qualified folks who have diverse views and happen
to be prolific posters. 

Regards,

Joel

 
>  Take care, and no hard feelings.
> 
> T.J.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Dng] devuan security wishlist item

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Jan 05, 2015 at 11:16:49AM +0100, Godefridus Daalmans wrote:
> Talking about security and ttys and login:
> 
> I would like Devuan to have a clear documentation and good defaults
> for the Secure Attention Key (SAK).
> 
> E.g. that any user at the console can expect to do Ctrl-Alt-SysRq-K
> to work.

Wasn't there a whole seqence of ctrl-alt-letter things to gradually 
shut down the entire system, layer by layer?  Antybody still know 
these, and are they still there?

> 
> Too few people know that this even exists in Linux.
> 
> Frits.
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Re: [Dng] Contact

[Richard]

I think this is apropos:
"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

 George Santayana 
We are beginning to sound like the Debian User Forum:
http://forums.debian.net/search.php?search_id=active_topics

What is going to make Devuan a better, more usable distro than Debian?
With only about 1% of the resources and population, how long will that
take?

Devuan needs facts, funds, code, coders, believers, and a willingness to
learn.
It also needs a goal. Only being against systemd will not be enough to make
Devuan a house-hold word.

Richard.


On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Martijn Dekkers  wrote:

> Hey TJ, I'm very sorry to see you go. Yours is an experienced and balanced
> voice that this young community needs more of.
>
> On 7 April 2015 at 00:04, T.J. Duchene  wrote:
>
>> Anyone wants to contact me is certainly welcome to do so off of the
>> Devuan list, on any subject they please.
>>
>> I'm not trying to be dramatic, but I believe that it is in Devuan's best
>> interest that I leave. By removing myself from the list, legitimate
>> conversation can continue.  I'm still interested in working with Devuan at
>> some point. I do not want to antagonise anyone further.  Everyone has my
>> respect, and with that, I bid you "good day."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> T.J.
>>
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Dng] [OT]I have been liberated!

[Neo Futur]

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Nuno Magalhães  wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 5:10 AM, Neo Futur  wrote:
>>  Same here I accept it on my mageia laptop, i dont really care the nsa
>> knowing everything of me ( they already have
>> http://leaksource.info/2013/12/30/nsas-ant-division-catalog-of-exploits-for-nearly-every-major-software-hardware-firmware/
>> ) , but, for the sake of my customers,  I will never ever accept this
>> on the dedicated servers i m paid to mange by customers trusting me.
>
> You're forgetting sysadmins (and their gadgets) are interesting
> targets[1] as well.

true, and one of the main reasons why I need (and donated to ) devuan .
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Re: [Dng] Who/what is welcome on this list?

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 10:46 PM, Joel Roth  wrote:
> We have few enough VUAs already that it seems wasteful to
> hound out qualified folks who have diverse views and happen
> to be prolific posters.

I don't know nor care what the drama was about for whoever-he-is to
leave. He's free to join, he's free to go - we all are.

This list seems to be open to constructive criticism, technical
opinions and even philosophic discussions (as long as we're on topic).
It's refreshing to see this and i'm glad the trolling and navel-gazing
hard-headed-ness has been kept to a minimum. I don't think anyone is
more important than anyone else, i don't see bosses or hierarchy here,
i get enough of that elsewhere. However, i must state that - as far as
i'm concerned - getting Devuan on its feet should be everyone's
priority.

I expect people to at least act as responsible adults. I don't impose
my expectations on anyone, but here's one of'em. Yes the net is
anarchy, which by my book means "everyone is responsible for their
actions", not "total chaos and mayhem" or "i'm behind a keyboard so my
asshole alter-ego can reveal itself".

If you're going to start acting like spoiled brats, please let me know
in advance so i can fetch some popcorn - i hadn't seen this since IRC
was *the* messenger, i'm getting nostalgic. Or you can grow a skin and
move on (preferably forward).

As a disclaimer, this message is not directed to anyone in particular,
but rather to the list in general. I may also add i don't give a rat's
ass about what any of you thinks personally about me or my opinions.
I'm here to help Devuan get on its feet - even if just by providing
suggestions and moral support, regardless of egos. And i probably
won't reply to an eventual follow-up either, this message alone is a
waste of bandwidth.

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[Apollia]

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 4:50 PM, T.J. Duchene  wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> What really puzzles me is why if you love systemd that much you just
>> continue arguing about systemd on the ML of a Debian fork specifically
> born
>> to throw systemd away. Do you think you might be able to convince us that
>> systemd is *good* and *beautiful* and *necessary*? I don't want to be
>> saved, thanks ;)
>
> [T.J. ]  To answer your question directly, you speak your mind, I speak
> mine.  All well and good.  If you disagree with me, that is certainly your
> right, and I've always respected that.   I do not understand why my response
> to a "registry joke" by saying that Linux already has a registry in the form
> of gconf has anything to do with systemd.   I'm not accusing you of
> anything, KatolaZ, and I certainly do not want to argue on the list.   I am
> genuinely puzzled.  I'm not trying to change your mind on anything.  I'm
> certainly not trying to "save" anyone.  I regard you as a respected
> colleague, who I simply do not always agree with.
>
> I am getting the general impression from on and off the list, that my
> comments are not welcome here, and that my continued presence is a
> distraction. Very well.  I was going to give it some more thought, but I
> think it would be best if I simply left the list by the end of the day.
> Anything I do with Devuan will be discussed elsewhere.  I'll stay on the
> list long enough to finish wrap up a few comments with Jeromil, and a few
> others.
>
>  Take care, and no hard feelings.
>
> T.J.

I like your comments and would be happy to see you stay!

I also like everyone else's comments!  I am usually too shy to say
much myself, and not technical enough to even follow a lot of what is
said on this list - but, nonetheless, I'd like to say, I am really
inspired by Devuan's mission, progress, and what a great group of
people has gathered here, and I think I'm learning a lot just by
reading and trying to understand things as best I can.

Thanks everyone!

Best wishes,
Apollia
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Re: [Dng] devuan security wishlist item

[Miles Fidelman]

Hendrik Boom wrote:

On Mon, Jan 05, 2015 at 11:16:49AM +0100, Godefridus Daalmans wrote:

Talking about security and ttys and login:

I would like Devuan to have a clear documentation and good defaults
for the Secure Attention Key (SAK).

E.g. that any user at the console can expect to do Ctrl-Alt-SysRq-K
to work.

Wasn't there a whole seqence of ctrl-alt-letter things to gradually
shut down the entire system, layer by layer?  Antybody still know
these, and are they still there?


It's in the kernel, not the distro.
https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt
or google "alt sysreq"

Too few people know that this even exists in Linux.




Too true.  I have the magic list written on sticky, underneath my 
keyboard - for those eventualities where things go really South on one 
of our servers.


Miles Fidelman

--
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In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra

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Re: [Dng] Who/what is welcome on this list?

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 11:46:54AM -1000, Joel Roth wrote:

[cut]

>  
> Regardless of the immediate outcome, it is worth asking
> what, exactly, is the problem with T.J.'s posts. 
>  
> I see much harder fought battles on the perl5-porters over
> technical decisions. People may be temporarily banned for
> personal attacks and certain other bad behaviors, while
> every effort is made to attend to the person's technical
> opinions.  Because there are specific definitions of
> unacceptable conduct, the actions of the list-owner or
> moderators can be principled rather than essentially
> personal.
> 
> We have few enough VUAs already that it seems wasteful to
> hound out qualified folks who have diverse views and happen
> to be prolific posters. 
> 

Hi Joel, 

I really have problems understanding your email. I can't see any
personal attack to anybody, no personal offence, no derision or
trolling. I personally can't see any objective reason why anybody
should decide to leave this ML (I have read all the emails sent in the
last 10 days, without finding anything offensive). I have just seen
several discussions, centered on both technical and phylosophical
issues, with many different people participating and making clear
their opinions, and maybe keeping them throughout and after the
discussion, which is usually normal in a mature and democratic
environment.

I don't have any problems with the views expressed by T.J., unless you
see as a problem the fact that I have sometimes criticised them (in a
direct way, which is just something I can't do differently), and I
think that nobody else has any problems either with T.J. or with you
or with me or with anybody else.

We are discussing, and more often than not discussing does not
imemdiately mean "agreeing" :) But again this is normal, especially if
the aims of the participants are very similar, but not identical. I am
sorry, but I can't see anything strange in this

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [Dng] devuan security wishlist item

[Joerg Reisenweber]

On Mon 06 April 2015 18:47:46 Miles Fidelman wrote:
> I have the magic list written on sticky, underneath my 
> keyboard
try Ctrl+Alt+SysReq+Shift for online help, no need for sticky notes (actually 
every key that's not already assigned does the trick, no matter if Shift or 
any other except those few 'hot' ones)

/j

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Re: [Dng] devuan security wishlist item

[Joerg Reisenweber]

On Tue 07 April 2015 01:29:13 Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
> On Mon 06 April 2015 18:47:46 Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > I have the magic list written on sticky, underneath my
> > keyboard
> 
> try Ctrl+Alt+SysReq+Shift for online help, no need for sticky notes
> (actually every key that's not already assigned does the trick, no matter
> if Shift or any other except those few 'hot' ones)
> 
> /j
nevermind, it's not a comprehensive list. Sorry

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Re: [Dng] devuan security wishlist item

[Robert Storey]

> Wasn't there a whole seqence of ctrl-alt-letter things to gradually
> shut down the entire system, layer by layer?  Antybody still know
> these, and are they still there?

Ah yes, the "magic keys."

Holding down Alt and SysRq (which is the Print Screen key) while slowly
typing REISUB will get you safely restarted. REISUO will do a shutdown
rather than a restart.

I don't know about Debian (because currently not installed), but in Ubuntu
this useful feature is disabled by default. It can be turned on easily
enough. As root open file /etc/sysctl.d/10-magic-sysrq.conf and comment out
or modify the line that says:

kernel.sysrq = 176

(note: might not be "176")

and change it to:

kernel.sysrq = 1

Reboot, and you're done.

Another ctrl-alt combination that's disabled in Ubuntu is the ability of
ctrl-alt-backspace to break out of X and take you to the login prompt. You
can enable it by adding the following line to .bashrc and .bash_profile:

/usr/bin/setxkbmap -option terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp

cheers,
Robert
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[hellekin]

On 04/06/2015 04:23 PM, Jude Nelson wrote:
>  Second, I can't take all the credit :)  Besides the VUA collective
> (Jaromil, Nextime, Hellekin, and others?), there's also:
>
*** I'm not VUA.  They are genuine spaghetti-raised Italians, I'm just
an exiled Piemontese from the XVth Century.  I can barely keep up with
the Prosecco and a Fragolino would kill me for the day, without
mentioning grappa.  No, no, the VUA are a special case.  I'm simply one
of us, one who wants this project to live on and thrive, and responded
to the call that "those who do will have a say."  I'm here to herd cats.
 Black ones, stray ones.  From the gutter or roaming on a burning roof,
with datalove.

==
hk

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[Dng] dev-list

[Martijn Dekkers]

Hi,

I know this has come up a few times in the past, but I would really like to
see a dev specific list, with some strict "dev-only" rules. The
Drama-to-Noise ratio is getting pretty high pretty frequently, and IRC just
doesn't work for many people.

pretty-please? I am happy to donate time, effort and infrastructure to make
this happen.

Thanks
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Re: [Dng] Contact

[Isaac Dunham]

On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 10:36:56PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
> I simply think that at the moment energies could be spent in a more
> productive way than in trying to identify all the good technical
> aspects of systemd (which might indeed be numerous). We still don't
> have a systemd-free distribution, so I am sorry but I don't see the
> point of discussing about which aspect of systemd one would like to
> have in an otherwise systemd-free distribution 


To know the next project we need.
And to figure out how much of it needs to be a dropin ABI-compatible
replacement, how much should be conceptually similar, where we can reuse
something else, and how much serves as a warning to all comers not to go
that way.

We need to understand the strengths and caveats, the failings and the
bright spots.

Thanks,
Isaac Dunham
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Re: [Dng] dev-list

[Franco Lanza]

On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 09:25:47AM +0300, Martijn Dekkers wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I know this has come up a few times in the past, but I would really like to
> see a dev specific list, with some strict "dev-only" rules. The
> Drama-to-Noise ratio is getting pretty high pretty frequently, and IRC just
> doesn't work for many people.
> 
> pretty-please? I am happy to donate time, effort and infrastructure to make
> this happen.
> 
> Thanks

I agree, in fact i don't post a lot here cause there are too non-dev
related threads and i'm all with my head and my hands on working on
infrastructure and code now, so, maybe a specific list strictly dev
related only can be a good idea at this point


-- 

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Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy
SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it
web: http://www.nexlab.net

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you can download my public key at:
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Key ID = D6132D50
Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7  4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50
---
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16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq
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