Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:46:17 +0200 Jaromil wrote: > https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751 Thanks for sharing. Six more pages were added while I was reading the thread.. people really care. My roots are from Slackware, and I've always been both encouraged and worried about its benevolent dictator model. I hope to join those others in contributing. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] the azeri project is underway. education for programming children with devuan
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 21:15:39 +0200 Basati wrote: > I've already named it: azeri (in Basque it means fox, children will > need the skills of a fox for this) Children will GET the skills of a fox with this. :) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 21:49:45 +0900 Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > KatolaZ writes: > > > The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd > > ... > > +1, although I'd prefer a more original and playful name ;-) libsystemc =p ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware
* On 2018 26 Jul 18:14 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > Bruce, > > It sounds like you have personal contact with him. Do you have for sure > knowledge as to whether the https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi is Patrick's > and funds I put in it would actually go to Patrick? I'm reasonably certain that it is Patrick's PayPal as he posted the link in the Linux Questions thread using his LQ account. When I made a donation it had his picture on the page. At this time I am confident that he received the money I sent. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Web: http://www.n0nb.us GPG key: D55A8819 GitHub: N0NB signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware
Not a Bruce, but... Source reference for that address is on page 11 on the LinuxQuestions.org thread quoted by Jaromil below. Here's a direct link. Decide for yourself, or wait for http://www.slackware.com/ to post. https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/page11.html#post5883695 Steve Litt wrote: > >Bruce, > >It sounds like you have personal contact with him. Do you have for sure >knowledge as to whether the https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi is Patrick's >and funds I put in it would actually go to Patrick? >> On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 1:46 PM, Jaromil wrote: >> >> > https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751 -- This signature intentionally left blank. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I'm not going to respond to messages like that.
On 2018-07-26 17:04, Harald Arnesen wrote: Rick Moen [2018-07-26 19:38]: Quoting Basati (bas...@basatu.org): I think there should be a little more respect for Europe's greatest cultural treasure. I hope you understand that I was speaking in _exactly_ that spirit. (In case it wasn't clear, the person of whom I was saying 'Someone is a bit provincial' was very much _not_ you, but rather the person who thought the term 'Azeri' could not legitimately exist in two languages at the same time. If my intent of posting a friendly greeting including some warm bits of welcome in the Basque language was somehow unclear, I am sorry that happened, but that was the very opposite of my intention. I, at least, had no difficulty in understanding what you meant. I think it was a very respectful response on your part. Communication often gets lost in 'translation' especially across cultures but sometimes even within the same culture. Rick's posts often contain subtle language that could challenge even native speakers. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware
Bruce, It sounds like you have personal contact with him. Do you have for sure knowledge as to whether the https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi is Patrick's and funds I put in it would actually go to Patrick? Thanks, SteveT On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 14:11:32 -0700 Bruce Perens wrote: > I offered to introduce him to some lawyers. I've certainly made good > use of them over the past year. Were it not for good lawyers willing > to work cheap or free, I'd be in some hot water right now. > > Thanks > > Bruce > > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 1:46 PM, Jaromil wrote: > > > > > dear fellow dng'ers > > > > let me bring your attention to this recent and sad message by > > Patrick Volkerding, founder and maker of Slackware, a distribution > > we all owe much in many different ways: knowledge, spirit, honesty > > and minimalism > > https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/ > > donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751 > > > > it is a sad story and I encourage everyone to donate to Slackware. > > He has now published this account of his > > https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi > > > > the last thing we need is a systemd-free distro to disappear and > > especially in this case, being Slackware. At Dyne.org we will also > > consider a donation. Thanks to VUAs for bringing this to my > > attention. > > > > in solidarity, > > > > ciao > > > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Steve Litt Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
Am Freitag, 27. Juli 2018 schrieb Dr. Nikolaus Klepp: > Sorry, this may break the thread but I already deleted the original message. > > To make things short: this a minimal "libnosystemd" for sshd on ascii. It > basicly does nothing at all. To be more specific, it does exactly the same > that libsystemd0 does, which is nothing. > > Unpack where you like, compile and copy the resulting library to > /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0.17.0 (it might be a good idea to backup > the original). "service ssh stop; service ssh start" and oh magic sshd is up > and running without libsystemd0 - that is all it does. Good enough for me as > a proof of concept :-) > > Nik > > oops, wrong filename. should be "libnosystemd.tar.xz" instead of "libnosystemd.tar.gz". -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... libnosystemd.tar.xz Description: application/txz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.
Steve Litt [2018-07-26 18:44]: > On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 18:00:45 +0200 > Basati wrote: > >> I would like to recall that RedHat is a company of the American >> military complex. With close relations with civil intelligence and >> the military of the United States > > Damn Americans! Every one of them voted for Trump, owns ten > semiautomatic rifles, owns stock in Red Hat, loves systemd, profits > and enjoys his country's military complex. > > Let's make a deal, you and I. I won't accuse your people of being > separatist terrorists if you don't accuse mine of being > Redhat loving militarists. > > Anyone thinking of dissing a nation on this *technical* list should > look long and hard at the deficiencies of his/her own country. Let he > who is without sin cast the first stone. > > Steve Litt > Orlando, Florida, USA > Campaigned and voted for Clinton in 2016 > As if that should be anyone's business but mine > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng Well said! Americans are the worst and the best people in the world - just like anyone else! -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
Sorry, this may break the thread but I already deleted the original message. To make things short: this a minimal "libnosystemd" for sshd on ascii. It basicly does nothing at all. To be more specific, it does exactly the same that libsystemd0 does, which is nothing. Unpack where you like, compile and copy the resulting library to /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0.17.0 (it might be a good idea to backup the original). "service ssh stop; service ssh start" and oh magic sshd is up and running without libsystemd0 - that is all it does. Good enough for me as a proof of concept :-) Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... libnosystemd.tar.gz Description: application/tgz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I'm not going to respond to messages like that.
Rick Moen [2018-07-26 19:38]: > Quoting Basati (bas...@basatu.org): > >> I think there should be a little more respect for Europe's greatest >> cultural treasure. > > I hope you understand that I was speaking in _exactly_ that spirit. (In > case it wasn't clear, the person of whom I was saying 'Someone is a bit > provincial' was very much _not_ you, but rather the person who thought > the term 'Azeri' could not legitimately exist in two languages at the > same time. > > If my intent of posting a friendly greeting including some warm bits of > welcome in the Basque language was somehow unclear, I am sorry that > happened, but that was the very opposite of my intention. I, at least, had no difficulty in understanding what you meant. I think it was a very respectful response on your part. -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware
I offered to introduce him to some lawyers. I've certainly made good use of them over the past year. Were it not for good lawyers willing to work cheap or free, I'd be in some hot water right now. Thanks Bruce On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 1:46 PM, Jaromil wrote: > > dear fellow dng'ers > > let me bring your attention to this recent and sad message by Patrick > Volkerding, founder and maker of Slackware, a distribution we all owe > much in many different ways: knowledge, spirit, honesty and minimalism > https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/ > donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751 > > it is a sad story and I encourage everyone to donate to Slackware. He > has now published this account of his https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi > > the last thing we need is a systemd-free distro to disappear and > especially in this case, being Slackware. At Dyne.org we will also > consider a donation. Thanks to VUAs for bringing this to my attention. > > in solidarity, > > ciao > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Bruce Perens K6BP - CEO, Legal Engineering Standards committee chair, license review committee member, co-founder, Open Source Initiative President, Open Research Institute; Board Member, Fashion Freedom Initiative. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware
dear fellow dng'ers let me bring your attention to this recent and sad message by Patrick Volkerding, founder and maker of Slackware, a distribution we all owe much in many different ways: knowledge, spirit, honesty and minimalism https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751 it is a sad story and I encourage everyone to donate to Slackware. He has now published this account of his https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi the last thing we need is a systemd-free distro to disappear and especially in this case, being Slackware. At Dyne.org we will also consider a donation. Thanks to VUAs for bringing this to my attention. in solidarity, ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.
On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:07:42AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > > > Anyone thinking of dissing a nation on this *technical* list should > > look long and hard at the deficiencies of his/her own country. Let he > > who is without sin cast the first stone. > > Careful. Those Icelanders have plenty of hard rocks, and some of them > are really hot, too. ;-> So does Hawaii. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2018-07-26 14:32, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > It would help maintaining packages that depend on systemd too. You > only would have to add some code to use the libnosystemd instead > of libsystemd0. If a libnosystemd package provides libsystemd, then there shouldn't be any additional code or checks necessary in existing programs. But both, replicating and changing "the libsystemd API" is wrong. libsystemd is really badly and monolithically designed. It's main problem is that it doesn't have an API, it has a lot of different APIs in a single library! This prevents providing packages with dynamic libraries replacing only one of the APIs. Therefore, ideally, the systemd developers should split the libsystemd libraries in smaller ones providing just one API per library. Something like libjournal for their logging API for example, instead of munching it together with everything else in libsystemd0. But I doubt that anyone of the systemd devs ever had that insight, I would even suspect they put everything in the same library on purpose, allegedly for simplicity, but in reality for better lockin. If a libnosystemd package is made, the different systemd APIs should be defined, then some library names, and finally it should do nothing more than forwarding the libsystemd function calls to the individual libraries for the different APIs if said library exists, and otherwise either do nothing or return an error depending on what would be worse. This way, it would be possible for different people to provide various implementations for different systemd APIs, without requiring them to implement all of them. Another problem could arise though, how stable are the systemd APIs? I once wrote https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/sd_journal_shim , it generates the libjournal library and just provides a subset of systemds logging functions so it can be used as a shim for those, even though it can't replace libsystemd. I think it's still in experimental, even though I'm not sure if it still works, because thankfully, noone seams to use the systemd journald APIs still, so noone seams to have had any need for this shim. Also, I think any such library should make it clear that it's existents doesn't justify libsystemd usage and discourage developers from using it. On 2018-07-26 16:17, Steve Litt wrote: > sysvinit and OpenRC typically have init scripts tens or > hundreds of lines, making init integration of an application seem > like an arcane art. What are they thinking? IMHO these immense and > unfathomable init scripts are what opened the door for systemd. > Those init scripts allow for any kind of scripting language to be used, and thus also allow for the usage of ones that look like unit scripts. I made an interpreter that allows yaml for declarative init scripts that could be used with sysvinit or openrc: https://github.com/Daniel-Abrecht/unitscript Daniel Abrecht -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQFIBAEBCAAyFiEEZT8xKpcJ1eXNKSM1cASjafdLVoEFAltaHIEUHG1lQGRhbmll bGFicmVjaHQuY2gACgkQcASjafdLVoGFbQgAsMfbIVyfKDj3Ze962oUrqSZoNFLR cTxcu73bUQxHuDVJhd9myXExBYtZgXtKLPMiCrIrOdKzwpGWNLkola7Fg2ggYQgJ jbWitQrpTgkUY3hrBdzkU8hBjKFkbMo7uXFGWbLa1q36gUyUwz44lX3HA8FM69Ax FYb4Cz6eLW7iDrWUtt3Ti5Ku4r8VY0nAgMNRP9U/fE5jrsVl5eSvtHkfOsfICMrR I13RtJ2evFkAty4HWicDrh3ejagLPP353jgRC7POjCaPdgEABd6CrHhIyYbJpkVS EYLl7ZJHaw171pKrQz6WRSTX/Xl/ybt+vv91Ia8TpHzgVKjsSDLGgORnQw== =Lc8K -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
Quoting Luciano Mannucci (luci...@vespaperitivo.it): > Wasn't there something called uselessd that had this very goal some > time ago? It was promising but died, I don't know why ... The anonymous author felt his initial versions (through 2014's uselessd-8) had successfully made his point -- that with minimal effort systemd's codebase could be made modular, unintrusive, and devoid of extraneous junk -- and the only reason it wasn't is that the author/maintaners prefer the horrific mess that systemd is and remains. Someone named Tarnyko purported to take over maintenance of uselessd in early 2015, but with no results so far. (https://github.com/Tarnyko/uselessd) Meanwhile, the anonymous original author claimed he'd shifted to work designing/implementing some truly heterodox init system, but again nothing's yet been seen. And, in the meantime, there's Luke Shumaker's notsystemd, extremely similar in spirit to uselessd: https://lists.parabola.nu/pipermail/dev/2018-July/006882.html ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A new article on Devuan (in German)
Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org): > Dear D1rs, > > just to point out the nice article written by Michael Plura and > recently published in the German computer magazine "iX": > > https://www.heise.de/select/ix/2018/8/1533453649894916 That is a truly outstanding article. Thank you for the recommendation. There may be some hope for IT journalism in the 21st Century, after all. (For those whose Deutsch is as halting as mine, I recommend Google Translate's results in this case as an aid. The English translation in this case works with only a few minor bobbles.) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linux Without systemd: Why You Should Use Devuan, the Debian Fork
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > Can I ask all of you something? How do people, who call themselves > developers, joyfully embrace a false choice like systemd vs sysvinit? The same way that the more-vocal djbware fans, and Prof. Bernstein himself, compared qmail _only_ with sendmail, not with Postfix, Exim4, or Courier-MTA, and compared djbdns _only_ with BIND9, not with Unbound/NSD, MaraDNS/Deadwood, or PowerDNS. Comparing what you like only with the cruftiest and oldest alternative is among the oldest, lamest, and most common rhetorical tricks around. Overcoming this chicanery was part of the inspiration for many of my more-popular Web pages, such as: http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Network_Other/dns-servers.html http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Mail/mtas.html I'm sure you've been disappointed by this sort of thing before, Steve. ;-> ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > Anyone thinking of dissing a nation on this *technical* list should > look long and hard at the deficiencies of his/her own country. Let he > who is without sin cast the first stone. Careful. Those Icelanders have plenty of hard rocks, and some of them are really hot, too. ;-> ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Thunar issue (was: Re: New user of Devuan)
On 07/25/2018 12:27 PM, aitor_czr wrote: By the way, I have also noticed here that inserting a CD/DVD in this Devuan installation does not mount the medium automatically, neither it opens a file manager. How to make it the same way as it does in Ubuntu/Debian? Tnx. It seems to me that this is window-manager related, wich one do you use(sorry if you already told it)? It's related with the file manager's configuration. Go to "preferencies->advanced->device mangement" or something similar. Ok, here it is Thunar 1.6.3 file manager in this Devuan Live Jessie Desktop Edition. So I did in this order: Preferences > advanced > click on "Enable volume management" > Configure > Storage > removable storage, click on "Mount removable media when inserted", also click on "Browse removable media when inserted", (even tried with click on "Mount removable drives when hot-plugged"). That helped partially: Now after a CD is inserted, a new CD icon appears on the xfce desktop. By hovering the mouse over the CD icon, it says "no mounted". However, a right-click on the icon offers to mount the medium, to open it (in file manager), and so on. So far - so good. It all goes manually, however not (yet) automatically. In Thunar, in its left-side pane, besides the CD title, there was a sign to click on to eject the medium. And it ejected it. Good. Ok, then I rebooted the machine, opened the tray and inserted the CD again, and voilà: It mounted the CD automatically and opened Thunar after that. Great! BUT, only for the 1st time: After ejecting the medium, and re-inserting it again, it behaves the same as before rebooting the machine. After any next reboot, the same as above repeated (1st time all worked automatically, the 2nd and later only CD icon on the desktop). While I can settle for that for now, I wonder whether it is a bug or so in Thunar? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
Steve Litt wrote on 26.07.2018 18:17: > On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:17:21 +0200 > Irrwahn wrote: >> What's more, I'd >> go even further and say I wouldn't mind at all if every daemon >> package came with support for all init systems in current use >> (rc-style sysv|openrc, runit, ... , systemd), as that would make >> switching init systems in an already installed system much, much less >> of a pain in the rear. Why would I care about a few dozen tiny >> innocuous unused files on a system that per default install is >> already cluttered with literally thousands of files I'm never going >> to use in any way. > > I write my own daemons. There may come a time when I put a free > software license on one of them and distribute it to the world. If I > did so, I might (or might not) include the runit run script I use to > run it. If I were feeling particularly nice that day, I might also > supply an s6 run script, because s6 run scripts are almost 1 to 1 > translations from runit. > > But there's no way I'd ever take the time to supply facilities for > startup in sysvinit, OpenRC, systemd or busybox. **Not my job!** While writing I was thinking more about package maintainers, not necessarily the author of a piece of software, though there will always be some considerable overlap between those groups of people. >> That'd be what I'd call "init freedom". It's very unlikely to happen >> in the foreseeable future though, as it would require cooperative >> effort of hundreds of individuals to include and maintain those init >> support files in the respective packages. > > Now it sounds like you're talking about something else. It now sounds > like you're talking about a group of init experts making startup > facilities for programs using various inits. This is a good idea. A > systemd unit file, or an s6 or runit run script offer excellent > documentation for how to configure the application for just about any > init system. Again, as above, I was thinking more about distribution package maintainers. Though it would obviously be of great help if patches were submitted by "init experts", without giving much thought to the question what traits would characterize such an "expert". By "cooperative effort" I meant that the maintainers of _all_ the daemon packages present in a distribution would have to provide and/or maintain init facilities for all supported init systems, as otherwise the whole endeavor would fail. > > sysvinit and OpenRC typically have init scripts tens or hundreds of > lines, making init integration of an application seem like an arcane > art. What are they thinking? IMHO these immense and unfathomable init > scripts are what opened the door for systemd. > I rarely write init scripts from scratch, and when I have to edit one I count myself lucky if it's just some posix shell script that, while admittedly not being exactly elegant, is in most parts comprehensible to me without in-depth study of some init system manual. Hence, I for one am content with the imperfect well-hung sysv-rc init. I'd however never try to force that attitude onto other people. (Not implying you did, mind you, just generally speaking here.) Each to their own, I'd say. While I agree that a lot of rc-style scripts look quite messy, at least these are plain shell scripts, giving full control over as much minutiae of daemon behavior as is conceivably possible, as the author is provided with virtually unrestricted access to the complete toolbox of standard unix utilities to pick from in order to accomplish his task. On the other hand, concise configuration files as used by many non-rc-style init systems have their own charm, but this gain in elegance comes at the expense of handing over a lot of fine grained control specifics to (a set of more or less integrated) binaries that behave to at least some degree opaque to the casual observer. This offloading of nitty-gritty specifics can come as either a blessing or a curse, depending on the case at hand. In the big picture, rc-style init systems constitute (almost) one extreme of the spectrum, while systemd is the perfect example for the other extreme, i.e. what happens when scope creep takes the alleged simplification more than a few steps too far by basically building a shadow OS, epitomized as a nightmarish hairball of elements that each are individually inferior compared to their "do one thing" unixish counterparts in the actual OS. Somewhere among this vast spectrum between spaghetti script and three-liners consumed by incomprehensible pseudo-modular binary monsters there should be something suitable for virtually anybody. And that is what makes me buy into the notion of init freedom as a declared objective of Devuan. As always this post is worth what you paid for it, YMMV, etc. Regards, Urban -- Sapere aude! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list
Re: [DNG] I'm not going to respond to messages like that.
Quoting Basati (bas...@basatu.org): > I think there should be a little more respect for Europe's greatest > cultural treasure. I hope you understand that I was speaking in _exactly_ that spirit. (In case it wasn't clear, the person of whom I was saying 'Someone is a bit provincial' was very much _not_ you, but rather the person who thought the term 'Azeri' could not legitimately exist in two languages at the same time. If my intent of posting a friendly greeting including some warm bits of welcome in the Basque language was somehow unclear, I am sorry that happened, but that was the very opposite of my intention. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.
On Thu, 2018-07-26 at 18:10 +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > On 26-07-18 18:00, Basati wrote: > > I would like to recall that RedHat is a company of the American military > > complex. With close relations with civil intelligence and the military of > > the > > United States > > > > I acknowledge that I used this argument with the DGN trap prior to the fork. > > > > My opinion has not changed systemd is a troll horse not yet activated. When > > it > > is impossible to remove and has thousands and thousands of lines of code > > that > > make it very difficult to audit. They'll open the back door. > > > > For 30 years they have not been able to cope with linux systems. They come > > and > > go as they please on the windows. > > > > The article is clearly biased. It lies and does the same thing that was > > done > > in debian to obviate the underlying reason. > > > > We don't have the resources or the contacts to fight this battle. > > > > But we have something much more powerful. We have devuan, its very > > existence > > is already a resistance. As the number of developers and users increases > > little by little. It will strengthen us to deal with this. > > > > But they can do NOTHING, we are the ones who DO. > > > > I honestly don't think we should waste time with these propaganda anti > > devuan > > actions by redhat. I'm convinced they're behind the article. It's their > > specialty that they know how to intoxicate. > > > > Basati > > > > > I am not into conspiracy theories and keep it simple: > http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html and then ask why the hell does > someone wants a init system to do all this stuff? Easy answer: latest > row in table on that page "Easily writable, extensible and parseable > service files, suitable for manipulation with enterprise management > tools" which is not by coincidence the main business of Red Hat. > > Grtz. > > Nick I agree with this latest point. While most probably they placed a backdoor in systemd, they may have plenty of them in the hardware and linux kernel. Access in the military goes by the security clearance of the individuals, thus any backdoor in systemd may just add another layer to the stack. The largest profit of systemd arises from withdrawing the control of the users from their own machines, the same way android and windows did so successfully. More sheep, more profits for everybody, more easy to rule over them. For 30 years they have fought against linux systems because users do whatever they want with their machines. Regards. -- Elbrus Kondratiev ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 18:00:45 +0200 Basati wrote: > I would like to recall that RedHat is a company of the American > military complex. With close relations with civil intelligence and > the military of the United States Damn Americans! Every one of them voted for Trump, owns ten semiautomatic rifles, owns stock in Red Hat, loves systemd, profits and enjoys his country's military complex. Let's make a deal, you and I. I won't accuse your people of being separatist terrorists if you don't accuse mine of being Redhat loving militarists. Anyone thinking of dissing a nation on this *technical* list should look long and hard at the deficiencies of his/her own country. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Steve Litt Orlando, Florida, USA Campaigned and voted for Clinton in 2016 As if that should be anyone's business but mine ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On 26-07-18 18:21, Steve Litt wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:13:41 +0200 > info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > >> No it would not, it will offer developers who want to use some systemd >> API call in their development the opportunity to do so for nosystemd >> systems too. > Eu! > > What makes you different from the devs at Gnome? If it weren't for devs > taking advantage of this "opportunity", systemd would not have a > hegemony today. > > If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence > http://www.troubleshooters.com/key > Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt You did read this part too? > It would help maintaining packages that depend on systemd too. You only > would have to add some code to use the libnosystemd instead of > libsystemd0. Like if no systemd installed then use libnosystemd. > Depending of which API calls are used in the program and which are > supported by libnosystemd you would have to do less. And you are not > depending on a monolithic binary blob like systemd because you can > script any API call the way you like it. Do not forget that developers make and maintain almost all the software in use on your system. If you can make their life and your own easier what is wrong with that? Grtz Nick ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:13:41 +0200 info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > No it would not, it will offer developers who want to use some systemd > API call in their development the opportunity to do so for nosystemd > systems too. Eu! What makes you different from the devs at Gnome? If it weren't for devs taking advantage of this "opportunity", systemd would not have a hegemony today. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. SteveT Steve Litt Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:17:21 +0200 Irrwahn wrote: > Hendrik Boom wrote on 26.07.2018 12:35: > > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 06:50:43PM +0200, Irrwahn wrote: > >> Hendrik Boom wrote on 25.07.2018 17:59: > >> [cut] > >>> Package dependencies are of the form > >>> Install X if Y is installed > >>> Too bad it doesn't handle > >>> Install X it Y and Z are installed. > >>> I suspect, though, we don't wand to have to embed a SAT solver > >>> into the package manager. It's already complicated enough. > >> > >> Hi Hendrik, > >> > What's more, I'd > go even further and say I wouldn't mind at all if every daemon > package came with support for all init systems in current use > (rc-style sysv|openrc, runit, ... , systemd), as that would make > switching init systems in an already installed system much, much less > of a pain in the rear. Why would I care about a few dozen tiny > innocuous unused files on a system that per default install is > already cluttered with literally thousands of files I'm never going > to use in any way. I write my own daemons. There may come a time when I put a free software license on one of them and distribute it to the world. If I did so, I might (or might not) include the runit run script I use to run it. If I were feeling particularly nice that day, I might also supply an s6 run script, because s6 run scripts are almost 1 to 1 translations from runit. But there's no way I'd ever take the time to supply facilities for startup in sysvinit, OpenRC, systemd or busybox. **Not my job!** > That'd be what I'd call "init freedom". It's very unlikely to happen > in the foreseeable future though, as it would require cooperative > effort of hundreds of individuals to include and maintain those init > support files in the respective packages. Now it sounds like you're talking about something else. It now sounds like you're talking about a group of init experts making startup facilities for programs using various inits. This is a good idea. A systemd unit file, or an s6 or runit run script offer excellent documentation for how to configure the application for just about any init system. sysvinit and OpenRC typically have init scripts tens or hundreds of lines, making init integration of an application seem like an arcane art. What are they thinking? IMHO these immense and unfathomable init scripts are what opened the door for systemd. SteveT Steve Litt Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.
On 26-07-18 18:00, Basati wrote: > I would like to recall that RedHat is a company of the American military > complex. With close relations with civil intelligence and the military of the > United States > > I acknowledge that I used this argument with the DGN trap prior to the fork. > > My opinion has not changed systemd is a troll horse not yet activated. When > it > is impossible to remove and has thousands and thousands of lines of code that > make it very difficult to audit. They'll open the back door. > > For 30 years they have not been able to cope with linux systems. They come > and > go as they please on the windows. > > The article is clearly biased. It lies and does the same thing that was done > in debian to obviate the underlying reason. > > We don't have the resources or the contacts to fight this battle. > > But we have something much more powerful. We have devuan, its very existence > is already a resistance. As the number of developers and users increases > little by little. It will strengthen us to deal with this. > > But they can do NOTHING, we are the ones who DO. > > I honestly don't think we should waste time with these propaganda anti devuan > actions by redhat. I'm convinced they're behind the article. It's their > specialty that they know how to intoxicate. > > Basati > I am not into conspiracy theories and keep it simple: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html and then ask why the hell does someone wants a init system to do all this stuff? Easy answer: latest row in table on that page "Easily writable, extensible and parseable service files, suitable for manipulation with enterprise management tools" which is not by coincidence the main business of Red Hat. Grtz. Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] I'm not going to respond to messages like that.
El miércoles, 25 de julio de 2018 21:21:39 (CEST) Rick Moen escribió: > Quoting Basati (bas...@basatu.org): > > But what do you think about this? > > Personally, I think: Nola esaten da 'someone is a bit provincial' > euskaraz? ;-> > > Ongi etorri. Pozten naiz zu ezagutzeaz. (Ez dakit euskaraz hitz > egiten. But the world is much richer for your native language, and I > thank & congratulate you for the Azeri project.) > > > I thought this was a little trolly. > > Jakinduria. > > (Seriously, I do _not_ speak your fine language, so I hope I didn't > mangle it too badly.) I think there should be a little more respect for Europe's greatest cultural treasure. It turns out that our language is the only Neolithic language that survives in Europe. We've been calling the Azeri at Fox for over 15.000 years. I understand that there may be people who do not understand that a project can be called anything other than English. I suppose the name LibreOffice will also bother you. In any case, the project is carried out with children who are Basque speakers. I don't think we need to go into this any further. A greeting Basati Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.
I would like to recall that RedHat is a company of the American military complex. With close relations with civil intelligence and the military of the United States I acknowledge that I used this argument with the DGN trap prior to the fork. My opinion has not changed systemd is a troll horse not yet activated. When it is impossible to remove and has thousands and thousands of lines of code that make it very difficult to audit. They'll open the back door. For 30 years they have not been able to cope with linux systems. They come and go as they please on the windows. The article is clearly biased. It lies and does the same thing that was done in debian to obviate the underlying reason. We don't have the resources or the contacts to fight this battle. But we have something much more powerful. We have devuan, its very existence is already a resistance. As the number of developers and users increases little by little. It will strengthen us to deal with this. But they can do NOTHING, we are the ones who DO. I honestly don't think we should waste time with these propaganda anti devuan actions by redhat. I'm convinced they're behind the article. It's their specialty that they know how to intoxicate. Basati Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linux Without systemd: Why You Should Use Devuan, the Debian Fork
Am Donnerstag, 26. Juli 2018 schrieb Steve Litt: > [...] > Can I ask all of you something? How do people, who call themselves > developers, joyfully embrace a false choice like systemd vs sysvinit? > Do these same "developers" neglect to put in error handling for a bad > value, because the program earlier supposedly set the variable to one > of two correct values? Well, windows devs have arrived at linux. what do you expect? > > I found this video particularly obnoxious. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence > http://www.troubleshooters.com/key > Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linux Without systemd: Why You Should Use Devuan, the Debian Fork
On Thursday 26 July 2018 at 17:16:56, Эльбрус Кондратьев wrote: > It's called 'herd behavior'. Someone told them that systemd constituted > 'the way to go'. Nevermind if that way results irrational. Oh well, at least it wasn't Hurd behaviour, otherwise we wouldn't have an Operating System at all... Antony. > On Thu, 2018-07-26 at 10:49 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 07:13:52 -0400 > > > > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > I found this article online. > > > > > > https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/debian-without-systemd-devuan/ > > > > I could have swapped the phrase "s6 plus s6-rc" for "systemd" and that > > entire video would have been true except the part that says if you're > > using Enterprise Linux, you're stuck with systemd. > > > > Can I ask all of you something? How do people, who call themselves > > developers, joyfully embrace a false choice like systemd vs sysvinit? > > Do these same "developers" neglect to put in error handling for a bad > > value, because the program earlier supposedly set the variable to one > > of two correct values? > > > > I found this video particularly obnoxious. > > > > SteveT -- I own three Windows books, published by O'Reilly. They are "Windows Annoyances", "Office 97 Annoyances" and "Windows 98 Annoyances". That pretty much sums it up for me. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:45:29 +0200 info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > systemd is in principle > nothing new in functionality but provides an uniform API for some > information you otherwise have to program yourself. We can serve them > the same information without serving systemd this way. And as a start > just supporting the most used API calls instead of the whole API. Wasn't there something called uselessd that had this very goal some time ago? It was promising but died, I don't know why ... Luciano. -- /"\ /Via A. Salaino, 7 - 20144 Milano (Italy) \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN / PHONE : +39 2 485781 FAX: +39 2 48578250 X AGAINST HTML MAIL/ E-MAIL: posthams...@sublink.sublink.org / \ AND POSTINGS/ WWW: http://www.lesassaie.IT/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linux Without systemd: Why You Should Use Devuan, the Debian Fork
It's called 'herd behavior'. Someone told them that systemd constituted 'the way to go'. Nevermind if that way results irrational. Regards On Thu, 2018-07-26 at 10:49 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 07:13:52 -0400 > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > I found this article online. > > > > https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/debian-without-systemd-devuan/ > > I could have swapped the phrase "s6 plus s6-rc" for "systemd" and that > entire video would have been true except the part that says if you're > using Enterprise Linux, you're stuck with systemd. > > Can I ask all of you something? How do people, who call themselves > developers, joyfully embrace a false choice like systemd vs sysvinit? > Do these same "developers" neglect to put in error handling for a bad > value, because the program earlier supposedly set the variable to one > of two correct values? > > I found this video particularly obnoxious. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence > http://www.troubleshooters.com/key > Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Elbrus Kondratiev ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linux Without systemd: Why You Should Use Devuan, the Debian Fork
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 07:13:52 -0400 Hendrik Boom wrote: > I found this article online. > > https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/debian-without-systemd-devuan/ I could have swapped the phrase "s6 plus s6-rc" for "systemd" and that entire video would have been true except the part that says if you're using Enterprise Linux, you're stuck with systemd. Can I ask all of you something? How do people, who call themselves developers, joyfully embrace a false choice like systemd vs sysvinit? Do these same "developers" neglect to put in error handling for a bad value, because the program earlier supposedly set the variable to one of two correct values? I found this video particularly obnoxious. SteveT Steve Litt Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
On 26-07-18 16:34, Steve Litt wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:45:53 +0200 > info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: >> >> Of course does the libsystemd API not provide it, but we can. First >> call to libsystemd API == systemd installed? If no, call to >> libnosystemd API which init system == installed? Or something like >> that. But put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls >> to libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names >> would make libnosystemd far more useful imo. Especially for >> developers. > How would you like to be the maintenance programmer in charge of such > shelled out code? Are we not, at this point, reinventing the complexity > that was systemd? > > SteveT > > > Steve Litt > Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence > http://www.troubleshooters.com/key > Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt That depends: from a developers point of view systemd is in principle nothing new in functionality but provides an uniform API for some information you otherwise have to program yourself. We can serve them the same information without serving systemd this way. And as a start just supporting the most used API calls instead of the whole API. Grtz. Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:45:53 +0200 info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > On 26-07-18 12:15, KatolaZ wrote: > > > > The libsystemd API does not provide any way to check *which* init > > system is running (ehm...for "obvious" reasons, right?). But we > > could put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to > > libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names. > > Then, the system administrator or the packagers can put whatever > > they want in those scripts, or even remove them altogether. > > > > This would in principle allow people to "catch" systemd-related > > events and "translate" them to events for any other init system, > > using a simple mechanism. Or just plainly ignore them, if they > > like... > > > > My2Cents > > > > KatolaZ > > > Of course does the libsystemd API not provide it, but we can. First > call to libsystemd API == systemd installed? If no, call to > libnosystemd API which init system == installed? Or something like > that. But put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls > to libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names > would make libnosystemd far more useful imo. Especially for > developers. How would you like to be the maintenance programmer in charge of such shelled out code? Are we not, at this point, reinventing the complexity that was systemd? SteveT Steve Litt Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:15:13 +0200 KatolaZ wrote: > This would in principle allow people to "catch" systemd-related events > and "translate" them to events for any other init system, using a > simple mechanism. Sounds like a great idea. The daemon phones home to what it thinks is systemd to day "I'm functional", and that info is given to runit. Cool! And then I begin to think some more. That notification is given via dbus. And what, runit must *listen for* this event? With what daemon? And how do we know that the daemon defines "functional" the same way we do? What if the daemon chooses to call itself functional when it achieves a network link, whereas the admin considers it functional only when it can ping http://www.troubleshooters.com? > Or just plainly ignore them, if they like... Upon further consideration, ignoring it sounds like a great idea. SteveT Steve Litt Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 04:13:41PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: [cut] > > But that would entail forking and patching all the packages which use > > libsystemd to force them to check if systemd is available... which is > > exactly what we are trying to avoid by nooping libsystemd0... :P > > > > HND > > > > KatolaZ > > > No it would not, it will offer developers who want to use some systemd > API call in their development the opportunity to do so for nosystemd > systems too. > Developers who do not use libsystemd0 now because they do not need it or > cannot afford it (embedded systems with a small memory footprint) can > easily ignore it. > I guess our main problem is to maintain packages that depend on systemd, and provide alternatives for that dependency. Not to ease the life of developers that decide to rely on system. Even because I doubt that such an API would ever be accepted upstream (i.e., by systemd developers). > But may be we better discuss this on dev1galaxy instead of this list. > Why should we? This list is more than adequate for such discussions, I guess. I personally never liked forums :\ HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On 26-07-18 14:05, KatolaZ wrote: >> Of course does the libsystemd API not provide it, but we can. First call >> to libsystemd API == systemd installed? If no, call to libnosystemd API >> which init system == installed? Or something like that. But put in place >> a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to libsystemd functions >> to a set of scripts with pre-defined names would make libnosystemd far >> more useful imo. Especially for developers. >> > But that would entail forking and patching all the packages which use > libsystemd to force them to check if systemd is available... which is > exactly what we are trying to avoid by nooping libsystemd0... :P > > HND > > KatolaZ > No it would not, it will offer developers who want to use some systemd API call in their development the opportunity to do so for nosystemd systems too. Developers who do not use libsystemd0 now because they do not need it or cannot afford it (embedded systems with a small memory footprint) can easily ignore it. But may be we better discuss this on dev1galaxy instead of this list. Grtz. Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Am Do den 26. Jul 2018 um 14:23 schrieb Lars Noodén: > Looking at the DSC files, it seems that the culprit is either gnome or > ssh-askpass-gnome or both. > > Is there an alternative ssh-askpass-* graphical utility likely to be > more portable which can replace it? Well, I use gpg-agent instead of ssh-agent. That is a better way to handle keys and allows more control for about how long you allow the keys/pass to get cached. And gpg-agent uses pinentry that is available in many flavours. Regards Klaus - -- Klaus Ethgen http://www.ethgen.ch/ pub 4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16Klaus Ethgen Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753 62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Charset: ISO-8859-1 iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEMWF28vh4/UMJJLQEpnwKsYAZ9qwFAltZzDIACgkQpnwKsYAZ 9qyPwAwAo2lVEwrIAUK07cHvz6B/XcTBrc1yC6/qYZZjofb78MUz6nN+NfZz9kwP 1YZZMRMmVUn4H4Ek4RxKoi6jm2ZanbA/oWxwA5ATdMF7QlJeErNnExqA9BYQTYv8 Ur8uqRtyg4BJp38R2W95ru0M44jjYxARYgg87pI7twc14qy/SCc4MG2d9xnr7vBb Rc0dANwHS+6gv6gKWbF52ZrQxqQMTvDL4OFXluqZ/GxLcdDw5vYMR3zrc6gvNuar 4jX4lWJj1bhQ3ndEe3HFld0MAvtgHubNsxekaqNsnxoXfbTyRiN9MGFCDdvL6zhc ZwDgTlhmWtrNY89aTb0ME9WlVGtSj+XkctLb3kwtnTSbsNzN52+mHRFCiQkr8iJ+ Z1Uoskxux9ORFnt8A4MCfuPdXVamxONlM8lFgWIbXikKqFSuv3gjRwYoW1wN28PE WpeK6iN6/oL3gxzHdVITqj2hcW7zZAo6C3kKqHv7dgXCupIpyctPep/PK8Bhu6zv sdpgEszO =+QjX -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
On 07/26/2018 04:01 PM, Klaus Ethgen wrote:> Hi, > > Am Mo den 23. Jul 2018 um 14:24 schrieb Rolf Schmidt: >> I would ask, if it is true, that the openssh-server still needs >> libsystemd0 in ascii? > >> Can I expect e fix? > > If you trust me ( :-D ) you can use my package[0].[snip] Looking at the DSC files, it seems that the culprit is either gnome or ssh-askpass-gnome or both. Is there an alternative ssh-askpass-* graphical utility likely to be more portable which can replace it? /Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Hi, Am Mo den 23. Jul 2018 um 14:24 schrieb Rolf Schmidt: > I would ask, if it is true, that the openssh-server still needs > libsystemd0 in ascii? > > Can I expect e fix? If you trust me ( :-D ) you can use my package[0]. It is the debian package cleaned from systemd, the disastrous patch introduced by debian to lower security (user-group-patch) and two other small patches that are not accepted upstream. The most active dist is sid and ceres but I also have 1:7.4p1-11+securityfix1 for ascii and stretch. Regards Klaus [0] deb ftp://ftp.ethgen.ch/pub/debian-security sid unofficial-secured - -- Klaus Ethgen http://www.ethgen.ch/ pub 4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16Klaus Ethgen Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753 62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Charset: ISO-8859-1 iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEMWF28vh4/UMJJLQEpnwKsYAZ9qwFAltZxgoACgkQpnwKsYAZ 9qynIwwAszwMF1AJ7F81nP205pvCSgN3mCPGKKQin8gDNhy2ltQonhB8QT85yUk5 XBe8S7Aqz5OgIByriBoe7if2xX2uWTVDLsFni5MJD2BYTwX8kG77ksYnXx7MhLFd RFNNK6JTKcYMMZqniDI4LSAu6WdlHS0Kqw6Lxw6FOZz7Qrh7vanj+elW3ncQGL/I aDaBLG/BnO5mfrdszMMPKDcdOkcwTeBjALXqppNzXkFrvGLiOu0roMWTsrEzxEYB ym9PX3tiSxp0K0aUyZ3L0fFpTN7+0QADrTLp03PaeFR4WgRsW8qF2CktKbQq0srF gmnz5DyVjgnTn8NfoPrdgbfhaZhulc8UIbtNPncvLdFNxvdDsH5CO0W27LqsLObW Rn+ockWovVCXlOscs4EescBKoRAbbONDO8KsIciiXCQhfLvDBARnHTG/2zxXv6Hx BeNfSvCVzCt1Jbt+X3W7xlQN9Fk8nFk30CsoPJn8ugFsNJzkzAOhC8vsLtVSDbcr nl+GzVao =YKjn -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
Hi, Minor correction in-lined below. Olaf Meeuwissen writes: > Hi, > > KatolaZ writes: > >> The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd >> which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the possibility >> of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so. We will get >> there. > > +1, although I'd prefer a more original and playful name ;-) > > # Not that I have any bright ideas right now :-( > > d-systemized ... perhaps > > For the library stubs and the [dpkg.cfg hack][1] I posted just a minute > or so ago? Dang! Should have retitled that post :-( > > [1]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180726.123546.eacb6518.en.html > > Anyway, most of this is just cosmetic surgery as long as systemd itself > stays out of the system. And systemd-boot, nee gummiboot, out of the > installer as well. BTW, the cosmetic surgery angle might be a nice > avenue to explore for package names! > > # init-freedom-botox ... :-\ > # Maybe just plain init-freedom? I just realized that true init-freedom should be systemd-inclusive, so don't put that dpkg-cfg hack in any kind of "init-freedom" package, please. > Remember, coming up with a neat name is half the fun of an open source > software project ;-) Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
Hi, KatolaZ writes: > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 12:45:53PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl > wrote: >> On 26-07-18 12:15, KatolaZ wrote: >> > >> > The libsystemd API does not provide any way to check *which* init >> > system is running (ehm...for "obvious" reasons, right?). But we could >> > put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to >> > libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names. Then, >> > the system administrator or the packagers can put whatever they want >> > in those scripts, or even remove them altogether. >> > >> > This would in principle allow people to "catch" systemd-related events >> > and "translate" them to events for any other init system, using a >> > simple mechanism. Or just plainly ignore them, if they like... >> > >> Of course does the libsystemd API not provide it, but we can. First call >> to libsystemd API == systemd installed? If no, call to libnosystemd API >> which init system == installed? Or something like that. But put in place >> a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to libsystemd functions >> to a set of scripts with pre-defined names would make libnosystemd far >> more useful imo. Especially for developers. >> > But that would entail forking and patching all the packages which use > libsystemd to force them to check if systemd is available... which is > exactly what we are trying to avoid by nooping libsystemd0... :P Exactly. Any package that Provides: libsystemd0 is *not* at liberty to change that library's documented API. No matter how much you may dislike that API and whatever it stands for, you either provides an API compliant replacement OR you end up forking every package that depends on libsystemd0. Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
Hi, KatolaZ writes: > The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd > which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the possibility > of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so. We will get > there. +1, although I'd prefer a more original and playful name ;-) # Not that I have any bright ideas right now :-( d-systemized ... perhaps For the library stubs and the [dpkg.cfg hack][1] I posted just a minute or so ago? Dang! Should have retitled that post :-( [1]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180726.123546.eacb6518.en.html Anyway, most of this is just cosmetic surgery as long as systemd itself stays out of the system. And systemd-boot, nee gummiboot, out of the installer as well. BTW, the cosmetic surgery angle might be a nice avenue to explore for package names! # init-freedom-botox ... :-\ # Maybe just plain init-freedom? Remember, coming up with a neat name is half the fun of an open source software project ;-) Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
Hi, Joel Roth writes: > Katolaz wrote on March 2, 2018: > >> leloft wrote: > >> >> I issued $locate systemd >> and got 200 lines of output, including >> /etc/systemd/system/* (23 files) >> /lib/systemd/system/* (60 files) >> /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0 (and 0.17.0) >> /usr/lib/systemd (25 files) >> /usr/bin/deb-systemd-helper ((and deb-systemd-invoke) >> /var/lib/systemd/deb-systemd-helper-enabled/* (68 files) >> /var/lib/dpkg/info/libsystemd):amd64* (5 files) >> >> This seems a lot to me. Please could you confirm that an ascii >> installation should contain 200 systemd files as part of a normal >> ascii installation. Sorry to trouble you if these are trivial >> questions, but they feel far from that. >> Many thanks >> leloft > > Most of those "alarming" files are just systemd units files, put there > by daemons/packages/utilities who "also" support systemd in a way or > another. So they are not alarming but just *totally* *harmless* if you > don't have a running systemd as PID 1, since only systemd understands > and can run them. It would be *totally* *useless* (and utterly > *stupid* IMHO) to fork, rebuild, and maintain a few more hundred > packages only because they happen to provide a systemd unit file for > those systems where systemd is used. Actually, you can keep these files off your systems fairly easily without the need to fork, rebuild and maintain piles of packages. The idea is to exploit the power of dpkg's --path-exclude option. Please note that the dpkg(1) manual page says Warning: take into account that depending on the excluded paths you might completely break your system, use with caution. So if you try this and stuff breaks you get to keep the pieces ;-/ You can add a /etc/dpkg/dpkg.cfg.d/systemd-razor file that contains path-exclude globs for all the systemd files you want to get rid of like so path-exclude=*systemd* path-include=/etc/dpkg/dpkg.cfg.d/systemd-razor although you might just want to be a bit more subtle ;-) # See dpkg.cfg(5) for (scant) details. The above prevents installation of any new "offending" files (while keeping the systemd-razor file installed, doh). To get rid of files already installed, you can retro-actively apply the above on what's installed already like so-ish find / -name '*systemd*' ! -name systemd-razor -delete with appropriate privileges, i.e. as root. Please adjust if you used a more (set of) exclude patterns. People that want to do so can do this themselves rightaway and Devuan *could* add this dpkg.cfg.d file to a suitable package (and the find invocation in that package's postinst). The latter only after a good deal of testing of course. Disclaimer: None of the above has been tested (although I do use this approach to clean out /usr/share/doc in my devuan/slim Docker images, see https://gitlab.com/paddy-hack/devuan). Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 12:45:53PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > On 26-07-18 12:15, KatolaZ wrote: > > > > The libsystemd API does not provide any way to check *which* init > > system is running (ehm...for "obvious" reasons, right?). But we could > > put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to > > libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names. Then, > > the system administrator or the packagers can put whatever they want > > in those scripts, or even remove them altogether. > > > > This would in principle allow people to "catch" systemd-related events > > and "translate" them to events for any other init system, using a > > simple mechanism. Or just plainly ignore them, if they like... > > > > My2Cents > > > > KatolaZ > > > Of course does the libsystemd API not provide it, but we can. First call > to libsystemd API == systemd installed? If no, call to libnosystemd API > which init system == installed? Or something like that. But put in place > a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to libsystemd functions > to a set of scripts with pre-defined names would make libnosystemd far > more useful imo. Especially for developers. > But that would entail forking and patching all the packages which use libsystemd to force them to check if systemd is available... which is exactly what we are trying to avoid by nooping libsystemd0... :P HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A new article on Devuan (in German)
KatolaZ wrote on 26.07.2018 12:03: > Dear D1rs, > > just to point out the nice article written by Michael Plura and > recently published in the German computer magazine "iX": > > https://www.heise.de/select/ix/2018/8/1533453649894916 That was a pleasant read, thanks for the link! I hope we'll be able to see more and more well balanced articles like this one, written by informed individuals who adhere to factual reporting instead of stirring up useless emotion-laden fights over spilled milk. Regards, Urban P.S.: That bit about Devuan technical support made me chuckle: | Technische Hilfe erhält man in der Regel schnell, auch wenn sich | ein beachtlicher Teil der Konversationen um eher esoterische und | prinzipielle Fragen dreht. Which roughly translates to: | In general you get technical support in a timely manner, even if | a considerable part of the conversation revolves around more | esoteric and principled questions. I take that as a polite way to give us a reminder to always strive to keep the signal to noise ratio as high as possible and to let threads about conspiracy theories and other cruft quickly find their final destination in /dev/null. -- Sapere aude! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
Hendrik Boom wrote on 26.07.2018 12:35: > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 06:50:43PM +0200, Irrwahn wrote: >> Hendrik Boom wrote on 25.07.2018 17:59: >> [cut] >>> Package dependencies are of the form >>> Install X if Y is installed >>> Too bad it doesn't handle >>> Install X it Y and Z are installed. >>> I suspect, though, we don't wand to have to embed a SAT solver into the >>> package manager. It's already complicated enough. >> >> Hi Hendrik, >> >> I'm not entirely sure I correctly understand what you think that could >> accomplish. In case you meant it the way I _think_ you did, this would >> be my two cents worth of comment: >> >> It wouldn't help a bit, at least in the case at hand. The package >> dependency exists to make sure a library (here: libsystemd.so.0) the >> application (here: sshd) was linked against is present on the system, >> as otherwise the application would simply fail to start, which is >> undesirable. > > I was thinking about package Y, which has systemd init script in package Xd, > depend on package Xd only if systemd is present. > > No linking involved. > > But I agree that adding such a mechanism would greaty complicate the > package manager, likely beyond feasibility. Not worth it if it's only > to avoid a few small files that may never be used. > Oh, you were talking about init scripts and unit files and the like, so I did get you wrong after all. I agree it's not worth it, for the reasons you gave. What's more, I'd go even further and say I wouldn't mind at all if every daemon package came with support for all init systems in current use (rc-style sysv|openrc, runit, ... , systemd), as that would make switching init systems in an already installed system much, much less of a pain in the rear. Why would I care about a few dozen tiny innocuous unused files on a system that per default install is already cluttered with literally thousands of files I'm never going to use in any way. That'd be what I'd call "init freedom". It's very unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future though, as it would require cooperative effort of hundreds of individuals to include and maintain those init support files in the respective packages. Regards, Urban -- Sapere aude! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Linux Without systemd: Why You Should Use Devuan, the Debian Fork
I found this article online. https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/debian-without-systemd-devuan/ It doesn't really get into the problems with systemd, unfortunately. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
On 26-07-18 12:15, KatolaZ wrote: > > The libsystemd API does not provide any way to check *which* init > system is running (ehm...for "obvious" reasons, right?). But we could > put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to > libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names. Then, > the system administrator or the packagers can put whatever they want > in those scripts, or even remove them altogether. > > This would in principle allow people to "catch" systemd-related events > and "translate" them to events for any other init system, using a > simple mechanism. Or just plainly ignore them, if they like... > > My2Cents > > KatolaZ > Of course does the libsystemd API not provide it, but we can. First call to libsystemd API == systemd installed? If no, call to libnosystemd API which init system == installed? Or something like that. But put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names would make libnosystemd far more useful imo. Especially for developers. Grtz. Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 06:50:43PM +0200, Irrwahn wrote: > Hendrik Boom wrote on 25.07.2018 17:59: > [cut] > > Package dependencies are of the form > > Install X if Y is installed > > Too bad it doesn't handle > > Install X it Y and Z are installed. > > I suspect, though, we don't wand to have to embed a SAT solver into the > > package manager. It's already complicated enough. > > Hi Hendrik, > > I'm not entirely sure I correctly understand what you think that could > accomplish. In case you meant it the way I _think_ you did, this would > be my two cents worth of comment: > > It wouldn't help a bit, at least in the case at hand. The package > dependency exists to make sure a library (here: libsystemd.so.0) the > application (here: sshd) was linked against is present on the system, > as otherwise the application would simply fail to start, which is > undesirable. I was thinking about package Y, which has systemd init script in package Xd, depend on package Xd only if systemd is present. No linking involved. But I agree that adding such a mechanism would greaty complicate the package manager, likely beyond feasibility. Not worth it if it's only to avoid a few small files that may never be used. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 12:01:54PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > On 26-07-18 10:00, KatolaZ wrote: > > > > The main problem is that those packages need to be maintained, and not > > just stripped of the libsystemd0 dependency once, and then forgotten, > > which is what happened with most of the Jessie packages that were > > forked for that reason. > > > > The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd > > which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the possibility > > of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so. We will get > > there. > > > > My2Cents > > > > KatolaZ > > > > Main question is which direction do we go with libsystemd0. Creating a > libnosystemd sounds like a good idea to me. Too bad i do not have > developer skills in that area. But i cloned the git repo to take a look > at it and i wonder if there is a way to supply certain information from > daemons if installed to make better use of it. Better in the way that it > not only tells no systemd installed but make some information available > like which init system is installed. Or other useful information. The libsystemd API does not provide any way to check *which* init system is running (ehm...for "obvious" reasons, right?). But we could put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names. Then, the system administrator or the packagers can put whatever they want in those scripts, or even remove them altogether. This would in principle allow people to "catch" systemd-related events and "translate" them to events for any other init system, using a simple mechanism. Or just plainly ignore them, if they like... My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] A new article on Devuan (in German)
Dear D1rs, just to point out the nice article written by Michael Plura and recently published in the German computer magazine "iX": https://www.heise.de/select/ix/2018/8/1533453649894916 HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
On 26-07-18 10:00, KatolaZ wrote: > > The main problem is that those packages need to be maintained, and not > just stripped of the libsystemd0 dependency once, and then forgotten, > which is what happened with most of the Jessie packages that were > forked for that reason. > > The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd > which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the possibility > of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so. We will get > there. > > My2Cents > > KatolaZ > Main question is which direction do we go with libsystemd0. Creating a libnosystemd sounds like a good idea to me. Too bad i do not have developer skills in that area. But i cloned the git repo to take a look at it and i wonder if there is a way to supply certain information from daemons if installed to make better use of it. Better in the way that it not only tells no systemd installed but make some information available like which init system is installed. Or other useful information. Another item: is there a resource (preferred text) how to maintain a package? I would not mind to maintain 1 or 2 packages but i do not have a clue how to do that. Grtz. Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
Simon Hobson wrote on 25.07.2018 23:25: > KatolaZ wrote: > >> Replace 'links2' with 'openssh-server' and 'libfbdirect' with >> 'libsystemd0', and you should see what I mean. Most of the De??an >> installations actually have tons of libraries that are never used, or >> are just used to probe for a certain functionality that is not >> available. This happens all the time, under the hood. > > Well yyeee, and no. > AIUI it is **possible** to write your program with functionality along the > lines of : > - test if libx is available > - if so > -- load libx > -- call function y to see if facility z is available And there's also the option of linking statically at build time. Please note I'm mentioning this only for completeness' sake, not that I actually propose to descend to that ring of hell. (Except for the few and far between well defined cases where this is actually a reasonable thing to do.) Static linking: After shooting your foot you rebuild the world to recover. Dynamic linking: You shoot everyone's foot at once in a single shot. Moral of the story: There is no silver bullet. Regards, Urban -- Sapere aude! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server
On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:25:32PM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote: > KatolaZ wrote: > > > Replace 'links2' with 'openssh-server' and 'libfbdirect' with > > 'libsystemd0', and you should see what I mean. Most of the De??an > > installations actually have tons of libraries that are never used, or > > are just used to probe for a certain functionality that is not > > available. This happens all the time, under the hood. > > Well yyeee, and no. > AIUI it is **possible** to write your program with functionality along the > lines of : > - test if libx is available How do you do that at runtime, exactly, and in a portable way? The only way would be using libdl, but that's a pretty shitty way of using libraries, if you have to use that all the time. > - if so > -- load libx > -- call function y to see if facility z is available > > > But that's a fair bit more work than just : > (assume libx is present, link to libx when building binary) > - call function y and let the system take care of loading libx > > Certainly when I raised a bug report against clamav the response was a "quite > emphatic" "that's how it works, if libsystemd0 isn't present then your system > is broken because that's now Debian policy". It's clear that libsystemd > linkage is here to stay in Debian packaging, and it's equally clear that > rebuilding **LOTS** of packages *just* to remove that one call to find out > that systemd isn't present would not be a good use of the limited developer > time & skills available. The main problem is that those packages need to be maintained, and not just stripped of the libsystemd0 dependency once, and then forgotten, which is what happened with most of the Jessie packages that were forked for that reason. The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the possibility of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so. We will get there. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
